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2021’s Most Boring National News Story is that a high school announced last week that students named, say, A and B were the valedictorian and salutatorian of the senior class, but then people pointed out that the school administration had used the wrong definition of grade point average. According to the published rules for calculating GPA, instead X and Y deserve the honor. So the school decided A and X would both be valedictorian and B and Y would both be salutatorian.

Crisis averted, right?

Wrong, according to the New York Times, which splashed this story from Mississippi heavily. You see, A and B are Black women (soon to be Black Women), while X and Y are lowly whites, so there’s something racistly uppity about X and Y asking that the rules be followed. Don’t they know their place?

Two Black Students Won School Honors. Then Came the Calls for a Recount.

After two white families claimed a grade calculation error, a Mississippi school added their children as co-valedictorian and co-salutatorian, reviving questions about race and equity.

By Stephanie Saul
June 11, 2021

At first, it seemed a joyous occasion. There was an audible gasp in the room, then boisterous cheering and applause when the announcement was made: Ikeria Washington and Layla Temple had been named 2021 valedictorian and salutatorian for West Point High School.

The president of the local N.A.A.C.P. in West Point, Miss., Anner Cunningham, smiled as the two young women, both standout students, were photographed. “It was a beautiful and proud moment to witness two young, Black ladies standing side by side given such honors,” Ms. Cunningham said.

But almost immediately parents of other students near the top of the rankings raised questions about who should have been honored. Within days, and breaking with longstanding tradition, West Point High School decided to name two valedictorians and two salutatorians — with two white students, Emma Berry and Dominic Borgioli, joining the Black students who had already been named.

And in the nearly three weeks since that senior awards night, West Point, a mostly Black town in the northeastern part of the state, has been split largely along racial lines, roiled by a dispute that included threats, a potential lawsuit and allegations of racism posted on Facebook.

Officials say that race had nothing to do with the events in West Point, but instead blamed a mistake made by a school counselor resulting largely from a confusion over which of two methods for calculating final grades should have been used.

… In Mississippi, where some public schools once defied federal orders to admit Black students and issues of educational equity are still raw, who gets honored and how can dredge up painful questions that are impossible to disentangle from the state’s racial history. In the past five years, Black women in Cleveland, Miss., about 150 miles away, have twice filed federal lawsuits alleging they had been cheated in their school’s selection of valedictorian and salutatorian.

 
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  1. Are these the only two white kids in the school?

  2. Maybe they used a Dominion machine to calculate the grades.

    • Agree: Kronos, Getaclue
    • LOL: bomag
  3. Uh, they couldn’t figure out which method to use? Is the counselor someone promoted past their competence?

    • Replies: @VivaLaMigra
    @Redneck farmer

    Just wondering why you used a plural pronoun - "their" - when referring to a SINGLE person. The grammatically correct construction would be "his competence" even though the gender of the individual is unknown. That's been the English language rule for centuries, and it has served us well since it avoids confusion between singular and plural. It is understood that we don't know the gender of the individual in question, just as when "they" is used, the gender breakdown of the group is often unknown. There is this thing called CONTEXT and listeners are expected to grasp that.

  4. Black female valedictorian! That is highly desirable and makes everyone happy! Especially GoodWhites!

    Like Biden’s election victory, a valedictorian victory can be attained by multi-pronged methods. Changing GPA calculation rules is only one method.

    For Black women to be a the top ranking of their school, ahead of Whites and Asians, such a statistical anomaly raises suspicion (by average IQ, work ethics, …)

    Of course, all the issues raised here about Valedictorian fraud are as taboo as discussing #StopTheSteal.

    Did top scoring whites avoid such a black school, and only white underclass can be found there?

    Maybe the grades have already been corrected for racial equity, in order to make up for slavery

    Maybe threat of violence, or promise of promotion prompted teachers to grade in a race conscious way?

  5. Then Came the Calls for a Recount.

    Then Came the Calls for Reparations.

    Then Came the Calls for Equity.

    Then Came the Calls for D.I.E.

    At first, it seemed a joyous occasion.

    Little did the know that the Virus of Racism was in the room.

    And in the nearly three weeks since that senior awards night, West Point, a mostly Black town in the northeastern part of the state, has been split largely along racial lines, roiled by a dispute that included threats, a potential lawsuit and allegations of racism posted on Facebook.

    Facebook, I tell you! It’s practically a new Tulsa Holocaust. All that’s missing are nooses randomly appearing on construction sites. That would blow the powder keg.

    In Mississippi, where some public schools once defied federal orders to admit Black students and issues of educational equity are still raw,…

    We will be reminded of this original sin against Panos The Magnificent till BLACKS inhert the Earth (which is their rightful heritage).

    In the past five years, Black women in Cleveland, Miss., about 150 miles away, have twice filed federal lawsuits alleging they had been cheated in their school’s selection of valedictorian and salutatorian.

    “The outbreaks of Racist School Virus are being observed inside an area with a radius of at least 150 miles. Call the CDC!”

    • Replies: @Getaclue
    @El Dato

    NYSlimes? Publishers are Irish aren't they?

  6. The irony is the school tried to do the right thing by letting the black valedictorian and salutatorian keep their honors that they were wrongfully given, but nothing is ever good enough for them.

    • Replies: @JimB
    @ScarletNumber

    Both white students had higher GPAs then the two black students. Therefore, they should have been the co-valedictorians.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer

    , @Barack Obama's secret Unz account
    @ScarletNumber

    That's not the right thing

    They pussed out and tried to please everyone and ended up pleasing no-one

    There's a lesson there

    , @guest
    @ScarletNumber

    Well, not the right thing. Rather, a thing. They tried to do a thing.

    Didn't work, because they're meddling in a world where it's not even all or nothing. It's just ALL.

    , @Hermes
    @ScarletNumber

    In the morality of today, the "right thing" is to make blacks the valedictorian and salutatorian regardless of their GPAs or any other qualifications. Letting blacks LARP roles that have supposedly been unjustly denied to them in the past is deemed more important than that those roles mean anything whatsoever.

  7. @ScarletNumber
    The irony is the school tried to do the right thing by letting the black valedictorian and salutatorian keep their honors that they were wrongfully given, but nothing is ever good enough for them.

    Replies: @JimB, @Barack Obama's secret Unz account, @guest, @Hermes

    Both white students had higher GPAs then the two black students. Therefore, they should have been the co-valedictorians.

    • Replies: @Paperback Writer
    @JimB

    Right, but I thought the article stated that the blacks took the more difficult courses. It's a dull article so I didn't read it that carefully.

    Replies: @JimB

  8. Yeah, the point is that YTs must lose not that blacks must always win

  9. The comments at the Times are a hoot!!

    With all the fluff and extraneous info in the article it was somewhat difficult to tell what happened. It seems that many schools weigh GPAs in AP courses heavier than GPA in other courses, but this school does not. (I’ll leave it to the gentle reader to theorize on why this would be the case in a mostly black school…)
    It should go without saying that the awards go to the people who qualify for them based on the specified criteria, but this seems very difficult for some.
    This year, the schools criteria, which was set up to favor black students…hiccupped and produced a white Valedictorian and Salutatorian; so the school changed the criteria to ensure the young black ladies won.
    In fairness, I think the system that rewarded the two black students is the fairer system. Too bad the school wasn’t using it.

    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    @TontoBubbaGoldstein

    'The comments at the Times are a hoot!!"

    Probably not. The situation has ceased to be amusing.

    , @Getaclue
    @TontoBubbaGoldstein

    Don't really find anything the NYSlimes does "a hoot" -- they are dedicated to pushing hatred against "White" people and do so on a daily basis -- the Tribal Publishers have been a cancer on the USA for many decades (as is much of the Mainslime Media run by the same group). This is what they want to happen to "White" people by the lies they push daily toward causing hatred against "White" people -- quite "a hoot"?:

    https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/06/14-year-old-fargo-nd-girl-violently-beaten-strangled-stabbed-death-stranger-skateboarding/

    Why do they do this? Here, let them tell you themselves!:

    https://www.bitchute.com/video/us3BImSU2vnN/

  10. At least no one has been shot.

    • LOL: William Badwhite
    • Replies: @usNthem
    @Mike Tre

    Yet...

    , @The Plutonium Kid
    @Mike Tre


    At least no one has been shot.
     
    Yet.
  11. Wow, what kind of a cosmic POS do you have to be, to piss and moan and whine and cry(etc), when some one receives an honor which they have earned, you receive the same honor which you haven’t earned, and somehow that is wawawacist.

    Let’s keep maximizing the wrongs done to Whites, because eventually that won’t rebound on to a highly visible, and completely despised, minority.

  12. Those As in HomeEc and Hair Weave and Social Justice PE surely outshine A’s in Math, Chemistry, and English, though A and B are more likely to get an offer to Harvard if they decide to forego Jackson State or Tougaloo.

    • Replies: @Nat X
    @Skyler the Weird

    The article states that the black kids took the harder courses but that doesn't fit your narrative. Whites at it again...

  13. They turned comments on. Yay!

  14. Another anti-white farce. Anti-racism means anti-white. So when someone tells you they are anti-racist, you know where they are at. Dumb whites dominate the ranks of the so called anti-racist movement. Yeah, nothing new to most here at UNZ and iSteve.
    And within this white contingent, the dumb, over-emotional women, they prevail. They luv wallowing in this shyte. Just like a barnyard sow.

  15. And in the nearly one hundred and fifty-eight years and three weeks since that senior awards night start of the battle, West Point Vicksburg, a mostly Black town in the northeastern part on the western edge of the state, has been split largely along racial lines, roiled by a dispute that included threats secession, a potential lawsuit Western theater of the War of Northern Aggression, an occupation a Reconstruction, and allegations of racism posted on Facebook in the NY Times.

    FIFT, give me some NEW news, people.

    • LOL: bomag
    • Replies: @Supply and Demand
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Mr. Newman, given the surnames of the other two valedictorians (Berry, Anglo-Jewish of French extraction) & Borgioli (Italian) -- this would imply that it's merely black-on-carpetbagger crime.

    Anyone from the North who crosses the Mason-Dixon Line to live should be prepared to be devoured by the barbaric negroes and the even more barbaric and africanized Scotch-Irish Protestants. There's no point in living in the jungle when there's utopia everywhere North of Kentucky and West of Texas.

  16. In Mississippi, where some public schools once defied federal orders to admit Black students

    Steve, that was your cue to interject, “And 1965 was, what, about twenty years ago?”

    • Agree: Hangnail Hans
    • Replies: @Triteleia Laxa
    @International Jew

    In an era when 20-somethings watch Friends as an historical artefact of a simpler time, the NYT keeps getting older and older.

    , @AndrewR
    @International Jew

    Last year

  17. I’d hate to be a modern day White American.

    Modern Day White American’s have the world’s problems bearing down on their shoulders while they also bear the protestant guilt culture of hundreds of years of progress, hard fought by their own forefathers.

    The MDWA is not even championed in online alt-right forums, like this, because the MDWA and his antecedents were all about inventions, making things, tactile things while the last bastions of FREEDOM are written by text based modern late stage jew worshipping anglos.

    Even in the hallowed documents of the American nation the MDWA is written out of the discourse, because the MDWA is not of that lineage.

    The MDWA is born of common stock, probably English prison stock or probably equally enough captured on the high-seas, but the thing is the vast bulk of MDWA are genetic and cultural descendants of a primitive punitive class based system which threw your great grandparents throughout the world.

    It’s absurd to blame White America for the sins of the American Fathers because those fathers were, in the MAIN, not yours!

    Like the easily fooled who believe in reincarnation, as the magnificent James Randi points out, why do all the reincarnated descend from a throne or great entitlement of ancient privilege?

    The vast bulk of White Americans are the descendent of an equally put upon class of White people constantly mined for our goodwill, intelligence, obedience and willingness to play the patsy good guy to Big Brained Corporate Malfeasance.

    The almost 100% of iSteve including the proprietor himself has very little kin connection to the people who proclaimed the myth that determines your subservience.

    • Agree: Lurker, Thomasina
  18. Math class is tough rayciss’.

    The Counsellor’s name wasn’t Barbie, by chance?

  19. @International Jew

    In Mississippi, where some public schools once defied federal orders to admit Black students
     
    Steve, that was your cue to interject, "And 1965 was, what, about twenty years ago?"

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa, @AndrewR

    In an era when 20-somethings watch Friends as an historical artefact of a simpler time, the NYT keeps getting older and older.

  20. This article made me realize that we don’t hear the term ‘multiculturalism’ much anymore, probably because it implies all cultures are equal (even the heritage white population’s) and that we should all try to get along rather than incite race riots over every triviality.
    Thinking I was probably wrong, I checked Google search terms and found that multiculturalism has indeed fallen out of favour since 2004.

  21. Are Valedictorian and Salutatorian a really big deal in the US? Does it go on your college application?

    In Canada it’s not a big deal. In my high school the students voted to determine who it would be. It was kind of a joke. No one speaks of it after graduation.

    How do you weight the courses according to degree of difficulty? I can’t imagine my teachers putting in that much effort to determine the winner.

    • Replies: @Anthony Aaron
    @eded

    In recent years, upwards of 50% of graduates from some universities have been given 'cum laude' awards of various stripes … everyone wins a prize and everyone gets a gold star … and, well, only a few can actually read and write and add, subtract, multiply and divide.

    But, hey … it's for 'the cause' …

  22. Picture of school guidance counselor? That would probably answer the question as to how the “mistake” occurred…

    • Agree: Calvin Hobbes
  23. @ScarletNumber
    The irony is the school tried to do the right thing by letting the black valedictorian and salutatorian keep their honors that they were wrongfully given, but nothing is ever good enough for them.

    Replies: @JimB, @Barack Obama's secret Unz account, @guest, @Hermes

    That’s not the right thing

    They pussed out and tried to please everyone and ended up pleasing no-one

    There’s a lesson there

  24. So what was the race of the “school counselor” who didn’t know how to properly calculate the GPA? Shouldn’t this task have been given to the Head math teacher!

    I am guessing that it must have been a slide rule miscalculation, because they probably don’t have computers yet in Mississippi.

    Thank goodness there were parents who were good at mental arithmetic. Probably carpetbaggers or immigrants.

    But funny how it worked out that there were now just two valedictorians and salutorians. It would have been a nightmare if it had turned out that they were half a dozen.

    Perhaps in future they should have two sets of everything.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @Jonathan Mason


    Perhaps in future they should have two sets of everything.
     
    By George, I think you're onto something here, Mason. White Valedictorian, black Valedictorian, white Salutatorian, black Salutatorian, white graduation, black graduation, white side of the school, black side of the school ... hey, wait a minute!

    Replies: @The Alarmist, @Boy the way Glenn Miller played, @Jonathan Mason, @Jonathan Mason

    , @Mike Tre
    @Jonathan Mason

    "Perhaps in future they should have two sets of everything. "

    Like continents, for example.

    Replies: @Swamp Fox

    , @Tom F.
    @Jonathan Mason


    So what was the race of the “school counselor” who didn’t know how to properly calculate the GPA? Shouldn’t this task have been given to the Head math teacher!
     
    Thank you for asking the most important unanswered question in this story.
    , @Chris Mallory
    @Jonathan Mason


    I am guessing that it must have been a slide rule miscalculation, because they probably don’t have computers yet in Mississippi.
     
    The counselor used a weighted GPA that gave more points to AP classes instead of the traditional GPA where Business Math and Rocks for Jocks count the same as Calculus and Physics.
    , @Calvin Hobbes
    @Jonathan Mason


    So what was the race of the “school counselor” who didn’t know how to properly calculate the GPA?
     
    The NYT article does not say, but the NYT says Burnell McDonald, the superintendent of West Point schools, is black.

    I don’t have a NYT subscription, but you can read this article and the comments without a subscription. There’s a lot of anti-white racism in the comments, but some comments take the side of the white students. There’s at least one comment asking what would have happened with the races reversed, with white students getting the awards even though the handbook rules would have given the awards to black students.
    , @guest
    @Jonathan Mason

    "Perhaps in future they should have two sets of everything"

    They had something like that in the past, called segregation.

    The future trends towards something like it, except everyone but whites will be allowed to have something for themselves. White money, in particular, will remain "integrated" in the pocket of every community.

  25. The articles says or implies – I’m not gonna read it again – that the black students took the harder courses. Or was it the white students?

    I find NY Times articles hard to understand. I was not my HS valedictorian.

    • Replies: @tyrone
    @Paperback Writer

    Article was short on fact long on CRT.

    , @Gaspar DeLaFunk
    @Paperback Writer

    I'm pretty confident the black students took plenty of "black" type stuff. A comprehensive exit exam might shed some light on who took harder courses.
    Maybe the white student needs the term valedictorian on their record more than the black. If you're black,you're already the best person in the room.

    PS:Dear Leader,will you touch on the Austin shooting?

    Replies: @Paperback Writer

  26. @Jonathan Mason
    So what was the race of the "school counselor" who didn't know how to properly calculate the GPA? Shouldn't this task have been given to the Head math teacher!

    I am guessing that it must have been a slide rule miscalculation, because they probably don't have computers yet in Mississippi.

    Thank goodness there were parents who were good at mental arithmetic. Probably carpetbaggers or immigrants.

    But funny how it worked out that there were now just two valedictorians and salutorians. It would have been a nightmare if it had turned out that they were half a dozen.

    Perhaps in future they should have two sets of everything.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Mike Tre, @Tom F., @Chris Mallory, @Calvin Hobbes, @guest

    Perhaps in future they should have two sets of everything.

    By George, I think you’re onto something here, Mason. White Valedictorian, black Valedictorian, white Salutatorian, black Salutatorian, white graduation, black graduation, white side of the school, black side of the school … hey, wait a minute!

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    @Achmed E. Newman

    So, Plessy v. Ferguson, 163 U.S. 537 (1896) is once again law of the land? Do we get separate busses to avoid the unpleasantness that dragged us away from that earlier wisdom?

    , @Boy the way Glenn Miller played
    @Achmed E. Newman


    Perhaps in future they should have two sets of everything.
     
    I suspect that the skoo was more academically successful when they had two sets of water fountains.
    , @Jonathan Mason
    @Achmed E. Newman

    I have often told my black friends that since they say the mixed school system is so unfair to blacks, it would be better for them to have all black schools with all black teachers--maybe just a token white teacher or two--like they do in places like Jamaica, or at least have the option to attend all black schools.

    In that way they could have their own curriculum and use their own teaching methods, serve their own food at lunches, listen to their own kind of music, and so on.

    Win-win. Or so you would think.

    But they are quick to respond that they DO want to stay within the mixed system, so I guess it's not quite as bad as all that.

    The situation today is quite different from the 1960s in the Deep South, and nobody would want to put any children in second-class mosquito-infested schools where they had no books or running water and get pigs' feet for lunch.

    Replies: @Desiderius

    , @Jonathan Mason
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Funny you should almost mention George Mason. A pretty distant cousin of mine, but one of the authors of the Bill of Rights.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

  27. The councilor *might* have been confused, but I’m surprised they don’t have the algorithm for GPA ranking built into the reporting system.

    Selecting Valedictorian isn’t a new problem. The GPA has serious limits because of heterogeneity of course difficulty and grading. In my era, some schools discovered that the Valedictorians were always business track rather than STEM honors track because the honors STEM were harder.
    The hack to address this problem was to add a point to honors class, (A=5.0 instead of A=4.0).

    This had consequences the ed majors didn’t foresee. Taking a non-honors course instead of a study hall would *lower* GPA because once you were > 4.0, there was any non-honors would lower the GPA.

    There are ways to address this, but like an IQ test, the methods are prescriptive, but not transparent. Of course the math of latent factor analysis is beyond most school administration.

    The the solution in some districts was to award anyone over 4.0 or anyone with straight A’s the title of Valedictorian. This isn’t as crazy as it sounds, it simply recognizes that there is no obvious way to reliably rank the students with the available data. Any specific approach is false precision.

    The alternatives are more or less to use a method that can be gamed or to make it subjective (e.g. a popularity vote among teachers)

    This all seemed pretty obvious to me in high school, but the school administration seemed unconcerned. They may have understood that there was nothing perfect, and who spoke at commencement or which parent got bragging rights didn’t matter much.
    Times change.

    • Replies: @Glaivester
    @Dr. DoomNGloom


    The hack to address this problem was to add a point to honors class, (A=5.0 instead of A=4.0).

    This had consequences the ed majors didn’t foresee. Taking a non-honors course instead of a study hall would *lower* GPA because once you were > 4.0, there was any non-honors would lower the GPA.

     

    I think the way my school dealt with it was by giving points for English and the next four highest courses (points weighted for grades plus class quality). If you took more than five courses in a year, you got a bonus point or two. So foregoing a class never helped your class rank.
    , @James Speaks
    @Dr. DoomNGloom

    Alma Mater looked at my high school grades, but only mathematics, chemistry, physics and biology. Non-stem subjects were not worthy of consideration.

    I had an experience presenting (you couldn't call it teaching) at a woke high school. The AP Chem teacher would just tell her class to "figure things out." She couldn't do the work herself but was department head because black female. All of her students scored a 1 on their AP tests.

    Once, I had to watch her class for about half an hour. They asked good questions; I explained two chapters in the time allowed. Management was not pleased.

    Negro AP scores are meaningless for calculating GPA. If the school wants to apply quality points, then divide each student's AP test score by 5 and apply this factor to their grade average.

    Just like those phony test scores in Fulton County a decade ago (all the perps were negroes), just like the phony election results in Fulton, DeKalb and Cobb Counties (photocopied ballots), everything negroes do is a fraud. BLM is a fraud, SPLC is a fraud, negro run elections are fraudulent, negro diversity managers are phony, negro anythng is fraudulent.

    Replies: @res

  28. @Achmed E. Newman
    @Jonathan Mason


    Perhaps in future they should have two sets of everything.
     
    By George, I think you're onto something here, Mason. White Valedictorian, black Valedictorian, white Salutatorian, black Salutatorian, white graduation, black graduation, white side of the school, black side of the school ... hey, wait a minute!

    Replies: @The Alarmist, @Boy the way Glenn Miller played, @Jonathan Mason, @Jonathan Mason

    So, Plessy v. Ferguson, 163 U.S. 537 (1896) is once again law of the land? Do we get separate busses to avoid the unpleasantness that dragged us away from that earlier wisdom?

  29. Blacks: so-so. Non-blacks: suck ….

  30. Valedictorian and salutorians take me back to my elementary school P.S. 119 in Brooklyn circa 1948. I was chosen valedictorian not because I was a good student or had A’s and B’s but because I scored the highest on an IQ test. Ridiculous! I forbear to report the IQ number. Donald Safford, a slight blond boy of impeccable manners scored second highest and was named salutorian. After the graduation ceremony Donald Safford’s parents approached me and complimented me on the honor. One of them said “Of course we had always hoped that Donald would come in first.”

    Their act of gentilesse has stayed with me all my life. I was embarrassed because I knew in my heart that Donald should have been valedictorian because he was a straight A student and always had the best grades whereas I was a general screwup and usually got C’s. I have often wondered how Donald Safford fared in later life.

    No blacks in our school, just mainline Protestants, poor Italian Catholics (the Irish generally went to St. Thomas’s parochial school unless impoverished) and a sprinkling of Jews.

    • Thanks: vhrm
  31. “Math is hard!” White Barbie
    “Shut your mouth, biotch!” Black Barbie.

  32. According to greatschools.org, this high school graduates about 185 kids each year, of whom about 150 are black and 35 are white. How plausible is it that the smartest kid in a given year will be black?

    To figure that out, let’s go with the standard setup of two normal distributions and a 1 sd difference between the black mean and the white mean. The smartest kid among 35 whites is at the 97th percentile (1 – 1/35)×100%, which is 1.8 sd above the white mean. A black kid that smart would be 2.8 sd above the black mean, thus (again looking this up in the table, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_normal_table) at the 99.7th percentile for blacks, in other words one in 333 kids, so with 150 black kids per graduating class, you’d see that outcome about one year out of every two.

    So a black valedictorian isn’t exactly what you’d bet on, but it’s not a totally implausible outcome either.

    • Replies: @Batman
    @International Jew

    That makes a lot of heavy assumptions about the samples being representative of the population averages. I'd expect the white kids at the school to be dumber than average whites. (1) They live in Mississippi. (2) If intelligence correlates at all with parental income/wealth (it does, strongly), the rich parents of smart white kids sure as hell aren't sending them to the local 81% Black school.

    , @Pat Hannagan
    @International Jew

    Clearly the International Jew has a lifelong subscription to iSteve because there's nothing of note to warrant it's repeated repitition in the comment section.

    For Steve when he read on 23andme his genetic breakdown

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uXSlacCyN50

    , @International Jew
    @International Jew

    On the other hand...
    The odds against black kids taking both of the top two slots are pretty long. The second-smartest kid out of 35 white kids will be at the 94th percentile for whites (1 - 2/35), thus 1.6 sd above the white mean. A black valedictorian + salutatorian means two black kids 2.6 sd above the black mean. The table says 2.6 sd is the top 0.466% of the population. So two of those will occur just 0.00466^2 of the time, or once every 46,000 (black) kids, ie once in about 300 years of graduating classes.

    Replies: @Papinian, @Buzz Mohawk, @Bardon Kaldian, @Jim Lahey, @Flemur, @Achmed E. Newman, @KL, @Sean c

    , @Jack D
    @International Jew

    What white person allows their kid to attend a high school that is 80% black? I'd sell my blood plasma before I'd send my kids to an 80% black high school.

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @Huisache, @Desiderius, @AnotherDad, @International Jew, @Pseudonym

    , @Abolish_public_education
    @International Jew

    The real story is that 165 other graduates had their GPAs miscalculated to non-zero values.

    , @Some Guy
    @International Jew


    How plausible is it that the smartest kid in a given year will be black?
     
    Unweighted GPA isn't a great measure of smartness though.

    so with 150 black kids per graduating class, you’d see that outcome about one year out of every two.
     
    Except if the highest performing white kid in that year is also above expectations that year, which has a 50% chance of happening.
    , @Tom F.
    @International Jew


    The smartest kid among....
     
    I take your point.

    My recollection is that 'smartest' didn't have much to do with the 'highest GPA.' Recent social conversations with public school teachers have revealed to me that the teachers are quite a bit more lenient with the Vibrant students. Teachers, as they explained to me, are hopeful that the little boost they give will translate into keeping them in school longer and open up more university potential for them. No answer as to how the expectations of those students will fit with performance at university, and later the boring grind of a full time job/career. (My own unspoken solution would be to make them 'teachers' and 'school counselors')
    , @Squid
    @International Jew

    Clever, but irrelevant. You have shown that a black valedictorian is not statistically improbable. However, it appears that the objection to the choices was not that two black honorees were statistically improbable, but that the math used to choose them was demonstrably in error. Your observation is a red herring. It is hard to believe that someone smart enough to make it is careless enough to believe it is relevant.

    , @res
    @International Jew

    Thanks for your analysis. I tend to agree with "on the other hand." What would make this even more interesting is to see the actual numbers for say the top 10 using both methods of calculation.

    Could someone elaborate on how the computations differed? I'm paywalled out of the NYT article, but the top comments seem to indicate that the difference was accounting for AP classes (by boosting their GPA) and that the black students were the ones who took more AP classes. If that is the case, I am kind of with the black students on this one. Sandbagging your GPA by taking easy classes is lame. In that case, the error would be with the handbook, and should just be fixed. With giving two sets of awards seeming reasonable given "those are the rules."

    This local article has some more details, but not enough to really understand (normally that would seem like a clue to me).
    https://mississippitoday.org/2021/06/02/west-point-valedictorian-dispute-sparks-allegations-of-racism/


    McDonald told Mississippi Today the high school guidance counselor was new to the school and was given incorrect information about how to determine the designations. The counselor selected the two students based on quality point average (QPA), which is measured on a 4.0 scale, instead of a strict numerical average of the students’ semester grades over their high school career, which the district defines as its grade point average (GPA), he said.

    McDonald said he looked at how valedictorian and salutatorian had been determined in past years and saw it was based on a 0-100 scale, or what the school refers to as GPA. The initial calculation was not conducted the proper way, he said.

    But the handbook a few pages later says GPA “is calculated by averaging the grade point weights assigned to semester averages,” which are 0.0 through 4.0. It goes on to say “Some classes may be weighted double see guidance counselors for this information..” (sic)

    A few pages earlier, under “Class Rank,” the handbook simply says “A student’s rank in his/her graduating class will be calculated by averaging his/her semester averages.”

    “(The parents’) argument was that based on our handbook, we should’ve been using semester averages,” he said. “And when you generate the report from the system, it clearly shows the two white students would’ve been first and second based on that number.”
     
    This article cites the NYT
    https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/558068-white-parents-claim-calculation-error-after-two-black-students-get-high

    According to the Times, the initial grade calculation was based on quality point average, which gives extra weight to grades from advanced placement courses. The second calculation was based on unweighted grade point average.
     

    Replies: @vhrm, @Desiderius, @Gamecock

    , @DextersLabRat
    @International Jew

    The white parents failed by having their kids in a 80% black school in the first place.

    , @Pixo
    @International Jew

    The parents of white children who send them to an 85% black public school likely have a mean IQ of 88 or so. Their children will mean regress to about 94, so that’s what I would use as the white mean.

    , @Paperback Writer
    @International Jew

    Implausible but not impossible.

    The article clearly states that the black kids took more AP courses - which should have been weighted more heavily, and originally were.

    I have to give this one to the blacks, although the kerfuffle is absurd and the fact that the NAACP practically bust a gasket congratulating the girls is sad. Black academic success is so rare they have to make a big deal over it.

    But I think the white parents were wrong.

  33. I’d say this is a very important story for a country that bases its entire immigration policy on the fact that once, an illegal immigrant was a valedictorian somewhere.

  34. Sorry, but JLP always makes me laugh ….

  35. Egalitarianism among the races was pushed 70 years ago, complete with massive federal bureaucracies to enforce it. How could anyone not see it would lead to anti-Whitism?

    Government programs are so intense that most of you spend your lives White Flighting from one location to another.

    This photo is from 1974. This “woke” stuff didn’t start recently.

  36. Officials say that race had nothing to do with the events in West Point, but instead blamed a mistake made by a school counselor resulting largely from a confusion over which of two methods for calculating final grades should have been used.

    Like Mason said, it could have EVERYTHING to do with race: the race of the counselor.

    I don’t think it’s right that black kids who have done the work to graduate should not be recognized as valedictorian. All should be declared valedictorian. You know, like participation trophies for all.

    Indeed, TWO valedictorians immediately diminishes the value of the award. Why not go all the way? The admin has expressed willingness to dilute it, it’s now just a question of how deep they go.

    And then the NYT says, “are impossible to disentangle from the state’s racial history.” So, indeed, the story is about racial history, stirring things up in this time of Racial Reckoning. Seems NYT would support valedictorian for all.

    And still more . . . If Y did better than A, then we should have two white valedictorians and two black salutawhatevers.

  37. The graduation winner shoulda been a tranny named Valla Dick Torrian

    • Agree: Hangnail Hans
    • Thanks: vhrm
  38. @International Jew
    According to greatschools.org, this high school graduates about 185 kids each year, of whom about 150 are black and 35 are white. How plausible is it that the smartest kid in a given year will be black?

    To figure that out, let's go with the standard setup of two normal distributions and a 1 sd difference between the black mean and the white mean. The smartest kid among 35 whites is at the 97th percentile (1 - 1/35)×100%, which is 1.8 sd above the white mean. A black kid that smart would be 2.8 sd above the black mean, thus (again looking this up in the table, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_normal_table) at the 99.7th percentile for blacks, in other words one in 333 kids, so with 150 black kids per graduating class, you'd see that outcome about one year out of every two.

    So a black valedictorian isn't exactly what you'd bet on, but it's not a totally implausible outcome either.

    Replies: @Batman, @Pat Hannagan, @International Jew, @Jack D, @Abolish_public_education, @Some Guy, @Tom F., @Squid, @res, @DextersLabRat, @Pixo, @Paperback Writer

    That makes a lot of heavy assumptions about the samples being representative of the population averages. I’d expect the white kids at the school to be dumber than average whites. (1) They live in Mississippi. (2) If intelligence correlates at all with parental income/wealth (it does, strongly), the rich parents of smart white kids sure as hell aren’t sending them to the local 81% Black school.

  39. @International Jew
    According to greatschools.org, this high school graduates about 185 kids each year, of whom about 150 are black and 35 are white. How plausible is it that the smartest kid in a given year will be black?

    To figure that out, let's go with the standard setup of two normal distributions and a 1 sd difference between the black mean and the white mean. The smartest kid among 35 whites is at the 97th percentile (1 - 1/35)×100%, which is 1.8 sd above the white mean. A black kid that smart would be 2.8 sd above the black mean, thus (again looking this up in the table, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_normal_table) at the 99.7th percentile for blacks, in other words one in 333 kids, so with 150 black kids per graduating class, you'd see that outcome about one year out of every two.

    So a black valedictorian isn't exactly what you'd bet on, but it's not a totally implausible outcome either.

    Replies: @Batman, @Pat Hannagan, @International Jew, @Jack D, @Abolish_public_education, @Some Guy, @Tom F., @Squid, @res, @DextersLabRat, @Pixo, @Paperback Writer

    Clearly the International Jew has a lifelong subscription to iSteve because there’s nothing of note to warrant it’s repeated repitition in the comment section.

    For Steve when he read on 23andme his genetic breakdown

  40. @Achmed E. Newman
    @Jonathan Mason


    Perhaps in future they should have two sets of everything.
     
    By George, I think you're onto something here, Mason. White Valedictorian, black Valedictorian, white Salutatorian, black Salutatorian, white graduation, black graduation, white side of the school, black side of the school ... hey, wait a minute!

    Replies: @The Alarmist, @Boy the way Glenn Miller played, @Jonathan Mason, @Jonathan Mason

    Perhaps in future they should have two sets of everything.

    I suspect that the skoo was more academically successful when they had two sets of water fountains.

    • LOL: donut, Swamp Fox
  41. @Jonathan Mason
    So what was the race of the "school counselor" who didn't know how to properly calculate the GPA? Shouldn't this task have been given to the Head math teacher!

    I am guessing that it must have been a slide rule miscalculation, because they probably don't have computers yet in Mississippi.

    Thank goodness there were parents who were good at mental arithmetic. Probably carpetbaggers or immigrants.

    But funny how it worked out that there were now just two valedictorians and salutorians. It would have been a nightmare if it had turned out that they were half a dozen.

    Perhaps in future they should have two sets of everything.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Mike Tre, @Tom F., @Chris Mallory, @Calvin Hobbes, @guest

    “Perhaps in future they should have two sets of everything. ”

    Like continents, for example.

    • Agree: Kylie
    • Replies: @Swamp Fox
    @Mike Tre

    And parents.

  42. @International Jew
    According to greatschools.org, this high school graduates about 185 kids each year, of whom about 150 are black and 35 are white. How plausible is it that the smartest kid in a given year will be black?

    To figure that out, let's go with the standard setup of two normal distributions and a 1 sd difference between the black mean and the white mean. The smartest kid among 35 whites is at the 97th percentile (1 - 1/35)×100%, which is 1.8 sd above the white mean. A black kid that smart would be 2.8 sd above the black mean, thus (again looking this up in the table, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_normal_table) at the 99.7th percentile for blacks, in other words one in 333 kids, so with 150 black kids per graduating class, you'd see that outcome about one year out of every two.

    So a black valedictorian isn't exactly what you'd bet on, but it's not a totally implausible outcome either.

    Replies: @Batman, @Pat Hannagan, @International Jew, @Jack D, @Abolish_public_education, @Some Guy, @Tom F., @Squid, @res, @DextersLabRat, @Pixo, @Paperback Writer

    On the other hand…
    The odds against black kids taking both of the top two slots are pretty long. The second-smartest kid out of 35 white kids will be at the 94th percentile for whites (1 – 2/35), thus 1.6 sd above the white mean. A black valedictorian + salutatorian means two black kids 2.6 sd above the black mean. The table says 2.6 sd is the top 0.466% of the population. So two of those will occur just 0.00466^2 of the time, or once every 46,000 (black) kids, ie once in about 300 years of graduating classes.

    • LOL: Hangnail Hans
    • Replies: @Papinian
    @International Jew

    Here's the link to coverage of the 2019 commencement: https://www.dailytimesleader.com/content/wphs-holds-2019-commencement

    Notice anything?

    , @Buzz Mohawk
    @International Jew

    Math is racist. Your calculations are bad international juju.

    The wisest thing the true winners could have done is keep their mouths shut and not ask for anything. Nothing good will come of this. Now that they are valedictorians and salad croutonatorians, are they all going to Harvard? How important is the title anyway? They should lose the honor again for being stupid enough to demand it against Blacks! in 2021.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @International Jew, @Brahmax

    , @Bardon Kaldian
    @International Jew

    Valedictorian, salutatorian ... damn Latin(o)s ....

    , @Jim Lahey
    @International Jew

    In your second set of calculations, adding in the salutatorian, you neglected to multiply the odds by the number of students in the class.

    If the odds of having a black valedictorian from the class of about 450 are about 1 in 2, then the odds of having a black salutatorian too are just under 1 in 4. Think of choosing the "next-in-line valedictorian" from the remaining class of 449, imagining that the valedictorian was killed by the police, or something.

    , @Flemur
    @International Jew

    It reminds me of how an Asian kid won the Navajo Nation spelling bee:
    https://navajotimes.com/ae/community/tuba-city-5th-grader-wins-spelling-bee-championship/

    , @Achmed E. Newman
    @International Jew

    My DIMS (Does It Make Sense) meter is buzzing right now, after this 2nd set of numbers, I.J. I can't put my finger on the terminology ("choose 2 out of ..." something).

    Let's see, if the means and S.D.s held, you calculated that 1 in 333 of the black kids would be at that +2.8 black-σ level that beats out the +1.8 white=σ on smarts. However, all it takes is another 1 in 333 black kids of the same population (minus the one) to get those 2*.


    **************************
    I'm no Vegas Playa', but it's easy from me to think dice. Let's say you do 150 rolls of a 333-sided dice (tricky to manufacture, so I guess in reality it'd be a computer random 1-333 integer generator). In those rolls, you have ~ a 50% chance of getting that 333, as you explained. If you did 333 rolls, of course it wouldn't be a 100% chance you'd get a 333, but on average you'd get just 1.

    However, in how many rolls of the same dice can you expect to get 2 of those 333's? It's not 333^2. That'd be the odds of rolling 2 of these screwy dice together and getting 2 333's at the same time, assuming this wasn't mob-run Lost Wages. For what you are doing, wouldn't it be just 666 (Uh-oh!) rolls to hit, on average, 2 333's?

    That doesn't quite work though for this: 4-5 years of these kids ought to get you 2 kids at that +2.8 black-σ, but then they must be from the same graduating class. I leave that trivial last part as an exercise for the reader, as the stats professor is likely to say when his head hurts like mine does right now...
    **************************

    OK, International Jew, I'm sure I'll be told if I'm full of it here, but one of the two of us is bound to get sent to the West Point High school counselor for some help with this. He knows what he's doing, right? ;-}

    Seriously, I have a non-woke Stats guy I can ask this to, but it's too early right now. Also, because not each population will be at that same mean and standard distribution each year, I have a feeling he'll say this is more complicated than we are both making it, and that he's got better things to do!

    .


    * It's an extremely minor point, and you are rightly trying to keep this simple, but I guess one +2.8 black-σ kid and one +2.6 black-σ kid would be needed to beat out both the assumed mean/σ 2 white kids.

    Replies: @bigdicknick, @International Jew

    , @KL
    @International Jew

    You are innumerate. It is silly to have a black valedictorian in half the years, but an additional black salutatorian every 300 years.

    Using the negative binomial distribution with 150 students, there will be at least 2 students above the .9934 fractile over 15% of the time, more than one out of seven years.

    This is only a correction to your calculation; you should really use the extreme value distribution.

    , @Sean c
    @International Jew

    You are assuming grades will equal intelligence. In my experience that is not the case. Some people will receive A's for substandard work especially if they are a certain race. A lot of intelligent people will not try and ace tests but not bother doing projects or homework. I would say something like a SAT test would more accurately rank by intelligence.

  43. I was told there would be no math.

  44. @International Jew
    @International Jew

    On the other hand...
    The odds against black kids taking both of the top two slots are pretty long. The second-smartest kid out of 35 white kids will be at the 94th percentile for whites (1 - 2/35), thus 1.6 sd above the white mean. A black valedictorian + salutatorian means two black kids 2.6 sd above the black mean. The table says 2.6 sd is the top 0.466% of the population. So two of those will occur just 0.00466^2 of the time, or once every 46,000 (black) kids, ie once in about 300 years of graduating classes.

    Replies: @Papinian, @Buzz Mohawk, @Bardon Kaldian, @Jim Lahey, @Flemur, @Achmed E. Newman, @KL, @Sean c

    Here’s the link to coverage of the 2019 commencement: https://www.dailytimesleader.com/content/wphs-holds-2019-commencement

    Notice anything?

  45. “You charged me with doing what I really believe is right by your students despite race, color, socioeconomic, whatever.”

    —Mr. Burnell McDonald, “who is Black”

    Re: QPA versus GPA
    Doesn’t the article suggest that the white students didn’t take AP courses or dual enrollment courses? Dual enrollment is a good idea for public school students to blast through college and get ahead quickly, but at the risk of subjecting oneself to college level testing/grading—it won’t game right if all you’re doing is maximizing grade instead of high or long-term achievement or understanding. But had the white students taken the same advanced course load as the black ones, they’d have ended up on top then too, right? No matter how much admin games the weighting, they’d still triumph, if they had the grades.

    What if it really is the case that the short-sighted and ambitionless white students wrongly stole accomplishments from hard-working and high-achieving black students?

    • Replies: @Abolish_public_education
    @Polemos

    Dual enrollment is a good idea for public school students ..

    No. It's actually just another public education gimmick designed to keep (in this case smartish) warm bodies (i.e. funding tokens) inside the K-12 school system. Other popular schemes of that sort nowadays include:

    • high schools offering AA degrees.

    • possible "approval" of transfer to out-of-district schools for students seeking enrichment opportunities (e.g. fine arts) unavailable in-district.

    • access to scholastic sports teams and activities for home study "enrolled" kids.

    @#69 Dato: I'm really getting tired of these "bullets into a crowd" stories. What are we up to now, one per week?! I tell friends who intend to visit LA to avoid 3rd St, Universal Walk, Venice, etc.

    Many years ago, when this sort of depraved indifference was extremely rare (except in war zones), an acquaintance of mine was seriously wounded like this. The young victim spent 10+, agonizing years in-&-out of hospitals and physical rehabilitation before finally succumbing to the injuries. Outrageous.

  46. Anon[252] • Disclaimer says:

    Very weird.

    According to Great Schools, the high school is 81 percent black and 17 percent white. The “College Readiness Rating” (ACT scores plus maybe some other stuff, I think) for blacks is 3 out of 10, 10 out of 10 for whites. So there is a huge gap there, as might be expected.

    The black girls seem to be garden variety descendants of slaves, not imported magic negros.

    So it seems unlikely that they would beat out white students, given the law of large numbers and statistics.

    But then there is this:

    Officials blamed a mistake made by a [black?] school counselor [and Hidden Figures fan?] resulting largely from a confusion over which of two methods [specifically? There are two methods?] for calculating final grades should have been used.

    Two methods? Huh. In my day there was one method, and the kids who had a shot at the awards knew exactly where they stood at any given moment. There was no “award reveal ceremony” with the NAACP in attendance. People knew in advance.

    The two methods come down to normal GPA and a thing called QPA (quality point average), which gives you a boost for AP courses and the like. So that explains it, the white kids took AP courses while the black kids took grievance study rap session courses, right?

    No, it was the opposite. The black girls won under QPA. But the awards were supposed to be given under the normal heritage GPA. QPA is a thing used in school transcript sent to colleges. This was in the school handbook.

    So the whites win on the rules, but the blacks win on the academic rigor (and they don’t like rules anyway).

    But I’m seriously flummoxed that black students would win when 17 percent of the kids are whites. As always, there must be a REST OF THE STORY. Is there a private school for whites and the students left at the normal school, while smart enough to always be in the top 10, nevertheless on the dumb end for white students, so from time to time not the top 2? Is this QPA thing legitimate? What exactly were the classes that all the students took?

    Apparently there is a lawsuit cooking, and there are lawyers who specialize in valedictorian disputes. Believe it or not.

    Over 250 comments at the NYT site so far, all supporting the black girls.

    What I foresee is that these two girls are outliers, that the rule book will be changed to use QPA, and then blacks will be completely frozen out because of that. On the other hand, two outliers in a single year? Maybe the white kids at this school are truly dummies.

    • Replies: @Some Guy
    @Anon


    But I’m seriously flummoxed that black students would win when 17 percent of the kids are whites.
     
    The white kids did win on the terms for valedictorian that were set and on which people actually competed on, what's so hard to understand?

    Suppose person A is the fastest person in a 100m sprint, but the judges accidentally give the prize to the person B who ran 110m the fastest, does that mean person B "actually won" since he ran further? No, because that's not what they were competing on.

    Replies: @Anon

  47. Quite a miscalculation! The person ranked 4th was thought to best the person ranked 1st.

  48. @International Jew
    @International Jew

    On the other hand...
    The odds against black kids taking both of the top two slots are pretty long. The second-smartest kid out of 35 white kids will be at the 94th percentile for whites (1 - 2/35), thus 1.6 sd above the white mean. A black valedictorian + salutatorian means two black kids 2.6 sd above the black mean. The table says 2.6 sd is the top 0.466% of the population. So two of those will occur just 0.00466^2 of the time, or once every 46,000 (black) kids, ie once in about 300 years of graduating classes.

    Replies: @Papinian, @Buzz Mohawk, @Bardon Kaldian, @Jim Lahey, @Flemur, @Achmed E. Newman, @KL, @Sean c

    Math is racist. Your calculations are bad international juju.

    The wisest thing the true winners could have done is keep their mouths shut and not ask for anything. Nothing good will come of this. Now that they are valedictorians and salad croutonatorians, are they all going to Harvard? How important is the title anyway? They should lose the honor again for being stupid enough to demand it against Blacks! in 2021.

    • Agree: Jack D, Hangnail Hans
    • Disagree: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @Buzz Mohawk

    are they all going to Harvard?

    Neither pair are Asian or Jewish or foreign, so probably not.

    , @International Jew
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Sorry, Buzz, I can't help myself. I was like this in high school too and though it made me valedictorian, it never got me laid.

    Replies: @AndrewR

    , @Brahmax
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Yeah, the math is garbage.
    1. There’s no reason to believe that the data are drawn from the same distribution as the US population
    2. Even if the distributions are the right ones, you can’t just use lazy math like this to calculate the probability needed. You’ll need to use either simulations or “order statistics”.

  49. Probably 99% of schools used weighted qpa rather than unweighted gpa to determine valedictorian. Schools have been doing this for decades.

    The article implies that this school used unweighted gpa in past years and states this method in the handbook. My guess is that the reason they used unweighted gpas was so that they would have more black valedictorians. The irony.

    • Agree: Yancey Ward
  50. Perhaps OT, but I would advise people who come to Steve’s blog to read a very good article here, coming from AmRen:

    https://www.unz.com/ghood/the-washington-post-treat-america-like-a-conquered-nation/

    The Washington Post: Treat America Like a Conquered Nation

    It is great without offering solutions-why should it, by the way ….

    Also, it readable for normal people for at least three reasons:

    1. it doesn’t peddle tiresome Jewish conspiracy, which embarrasses normal race realist people

    2. it doesn’t make itself idiotic by calling blacks sub-humans & other imbecile and vulgar names

    3. it is concise & concentrated, so we don’t have to read long expatiations on evolution, IQ etc.

    • Replies: @Kylie
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Good article. Thanks.

  51. @International Jew
    @International Jew

    On the other hand...
    The odds against black kids taking both of the top two slots are pretty long. The second-smartest kid out of 35 white kids will be at the 94th percentile for whites (1 - 2/35), thus 1.6 sd above the white mean. A black valedictorian + salutatorian means two black kids 2.6 sd above the black mean. The table says 2.6 sd is the top 0.466% of the population. So two of those will occur just 0.00466^2 of the time, or once every 46,000 (black) kids, ie once in about 300 years of graduating classes.

    Replies: @Papinian, @Buzz Mohawk, @Bardon Kaldian, @Jim Lahey, @Flemur, @Achmed E. Newman, @KL, @Sean c

    Valedictorian, salutatorian … damn Latin(o)s ….

  52. @Buzz Mohawk
    @International Jew

    Math is racist. Your calculations are bad international juju.

    The wisest thing the true winners could have done is keep their mouths shut and not ask for anything. Nothing good will come of this. Now that they are valedictorians and salad croutonatorians, are they all going to Harvard? How important is the title anyway? They should lose the honor again for being stupid enough to demand it against Blacks! in 2021.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @International Jew, @Brahmax

    are they all going to Harvard?

    Neither pair are Asian or Jewish or foreign, so probably not.

    • Agree: Hangnail Hans
  53. I realize that the most simple, effective and humane solution to this and every problem like this is inexplicably unpopular with many in the iSteve crowd (I mean, what would you have to talk about), but I throw it out there again:

    Separate.

    Problem solved.

    • Agree: Lurker
  54. @International Jew
    According to greatschools.org, this high school graduates about 185 kids each year, of whom about 150 are black and 35 are white. How plausible is it that the smartest kid in a given year will be black?

    To figure that out, let's go with the standard setup of two normal distributions and a 1 sd difference between the black mean and the white mean. The smartest kid among 35 whites is at the 97th percentile (1 - 1/35)×100%, which is 1.8 sd above the white mean. A black kid that smart would be 2.8 sd above the black mean, thus (again looking this up in the table, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_normal_table) at the 99.7th percentile for blacks, in other words one in 333 kids, so with 150 black kids per graduating class, you'd see that outcome about one year out of every two.

    So a black valedictorian isn't exactly what you'd bet on, but it's not a totally implausible outcome either.

    Replies: @Batman, @Pat Hannagan, @International Jew, @Jack D, @Abolish_public_education, @Some Guy, @Tom F., @Squid, @res, @DextersLabRat, @Pixo, @Paperback Writer

    What white person allows their kid to attend a high school that is 80% black? I’d sell my blood plasma before I’d send my kids to an 80% black high school.

    • Troll: Corvinus
    • Replies: @Redneck farmer
    @Jack D

    Poor ones.
    Oh, and ones that want to show they're not racist.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer

    , @Huisache
    @Jack D

    In Mississippi rural areas most of the whites who can afford it are in Christian academies. Kids who can’t afford them go to public schools

    , @Desiderius
    @Jack D

    High school is one thing, but my wife and I had to make that decision for one of our three-year-old twins this past year and he made unexpectedly great progress.

    Maybe hanging around blacks is the long sought cure for autism.

    Replies: @AnotherDad, @Hangnail Hans, @Alden

    , @AnotherDad
    @Jack D


    What white person allows their kid to attend a high school that is 80% black? I’d sell my blood plasma before I’d send my kids to an 80% black high school.
     
    Unfortunately for these people, lawyers foreclosed that opportunity for people of insufficient means in Mississippi. Blood plasma donation won't get it done.

    (You could say "Move!" "Move toward the Canadian border" ... but not everyone wants to enjoy a Montana winter.)

    Replies: @Icy Blast

    , @International Jew
    @Jack D

    Believe it or not, the white valedictorian belongs to the Bryan family which, thanks to their meat plant, once owned the town. The south is different like that.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Calvin Hobbes, @res, @Jack D

    , @Pseudonym
    @Jack D

    Believe it or not, my well-to-do suburban Boston high school imported students from Roxbury. I remember them hassling me and trying to shake me down for money freshman year. It was done under a program called METCO to which my town and most other Boston suburbs still subscribe.

    Replies: @Bostonvegas, @JohnnyWalker123, @Boy the way Glenn Miller played

  55. Here are pics of the “counselors” – unlike he fakenews reports, they’re divided into West Point North and West Point South, perhaps to protect the guilty:
    https://www.westpoint.k12.ms.us/counselorscorner

    • Replies: @Calvin Hobbes
    @Flemur


    Here are pics of the “counselors” – unlike he fakenews reports, they’re divided into West Point North and West Point South, perhaps to protect the guilty:
    https://www.westpoint.k12.ms.us/counselors corner
     
    There’s only one counselor listed as being for grade 12: Traqundus Boyd.

    The name Traqundus seems pretty weird, even for a black name, and it sounds more like a man’s name than a woman’s name.

    , @Buffalo Joe
    @Flemur

    Flemur, thank you. Traqundus Boyd. And I took four years of Latin, where do they get these names. And willing to bet that some lil chile is goin be birth named Valedictorian or Salutatorian only with some apostrphes and hyphens.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

  56. @International Jew
    @International Jew

    On the other hand...
    The odds against black kids taking both of the top two slots are pretty long. The second-smartest kid out of 35 white kids will be at the 94th percentile for whites (1 - 2/35), thus 1.6 sd above the white mean. A black valedictorian + salutatorian means two black kids 2.6 sd above the black mean. The table says 2.6 sd is the top 0.466% of the population. So two of those will occur just 0.00466^2 of the time, or once every 46,000 (black) kids, ie once in about 300 years of graduating classes.

    Replies: @Papinian, @Buzz Mohawk, @Bardon Kaldian, @Jim Lahey, @Flemur, @Achmed E. Newman, @KL, @Sean c

    In your second set of calculations, adding in the salutatorian, you neglected to multiply the odds by the number of students in the class.

    If the odds of having a black valedictorian from the class of about 450 are about 1 in 2, then the odds of having a black salutatorian too are just under 1 in 4. Think of choosing the “next-in-line valedictorian” from the remaining class of 449, imagining that the valedictorian was killed by the police, or something.

  57. @International Jew
    @International Jew

    On the other hand...
    The odds against black kids taking both of the top two slots are pretty long. The second-smartest kid out of 35 white kids will be at the 94th percentile for whites (1 - 2/35), thus 1.6 sd above the white mean. A black valedictorian + salutatorian means two black kids 2.6 sd above the black mean. The table says 2.6 sd is the top 0.466% of the population. So two of those will occur just 0.00466^2 of the time, or once every 46,000 (black) kids, ie once in about 300 years of graduating classes.

    Replies: @Papinian, @Buzz Mohawk, @Bardon Kaldian, @Jim Lahey, @Flemur, @Achmed E. Newman, @KL, @Sean c

    It reminds me of how an Asian kid won the Navajo Nation spelling bee:
    https://navajotimes.com/ae/community/tuba-city-5th-grader-wins-spelling-bee-championship/

  58. Actually, I think it was good for the Whites to contest the awards. We need more pushback against this pervasive negrophilia. The unusual thing is they actually got the recognition.

  59. @Jack D
    @International Jew

    What white person allows their kid to attend a high school that is 80% black? I'd sell my blood plasma before I'd send my kids to an 80% black high school.

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @Huisache, @Desiderius, @AnotherDad, @International Jew, @Pseudonym

    Poor ones.
    Oh, and ones that want to show they’re not racist.

    • Replies: @Paperback Writer
    @Redneck farmer

    No, I think the girl is rich, her name is associated with one of the wealthiest white families in the area.

  60. @Jack D
    @International Jew

    What white person allows their kid to attend a high school that is 80% black? I'd sell my blood plasma before I'd send my kids to an 80% black high school.

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @Huisache, @Desiderius, @AnotherDad, @International Jew, @Pseudonym

    In Mississippi rural areas most of the whites who can afford it are in Christian academies. Kids who can’t afford them go to public schools

  61. Note the use of the phrase “Then came calls for a recount” as opposed to calling it a recalculation. The point, of course, is to say, “Here go those white racists asking for a recount again” when all Good People know that “recount = racist” and “racist = recount.” “Democracy” is defined as “When Democrats Win.”

    • Agree: Buffalo Joe
  62. a school counselor

    Someone who advises kids.

    Lucky kids.

  63. … In Mississippi, where some public schools once defied federal orders to admit Black students and issues of educational equity are still raw,

    Don’t forget the pogroms! Don’t forget the pogroms!

    BTW, hat tip to Ms. Saul for not going full Emmett Till on Mississippi which the younger (and dumber) lassies would tend to do. I guess growing up in Mississippi and being of a certain age once-upon-a-time segregated schools has enough racial frisson to give Ms. Saul tingles. So we are blissfully spared a much clunkier Tillating reference.

    I always take heart from these breathless stories of racial contention in some flyover Southern backwater … that if this is NYT “news” then there must be integrated racial peace and harmony up in NYC.

    • Replies: @njguy73
    @AnotherDad

    OK, you don't use the word "pogrom" unless you're talking about Jews in Russia. That's our oppression. No one gets to appropriate it.

  64. The same thing happened 30 years ago when one of my kids was named salutatorian. Another parent claimed that the GPA calculation had not properly weighted for AP classes. Her kid was named co-salutatorisn. It didn’t make the local paper because they were both white.

  65. … In Mississippi, where some public schools once defied federal orders to admit Black students

    They’re so pitiful. Those keys have GOT to be under this streetlight somewhere DAMMIT.

  66. @Jack D
    @International Jew

    What white person allows their kid to attend a high school that is 80% black? I'd sell my blood plasma before I'd send my kids to an 80% black high school.

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @Huisache, @Desiderius, @AnotherDad, @International Jew, @Pseudonym

    High school is one thing, but my wife and I had to make that decision for one of our three-year-old twins this past year and he made unexpectedly great progress.

    Maybe hanging around blacks is the long sought cure for autism.

    • Replies: @AnotherDad
    @Desiderius


    High school is one thing, but my wife and I had to make that decision for one of our three-year-old twins this past year and he made unexpectedly great progress.

    Maybe hanging around blacks is the long sought cure for autism.
     
    Good to hear your son is doing well.

    I think the general rule is that *big* issue really starts with puberty--Jr. HS. It's two pronged.

    1) No one really needs to be taking calculus in 6th grade. It doesn't really accomplish anything in terms of whether little Johnny with get his Nobel prize at 35 or have to wait until he's 60. It's really in HS where kids who are smart need to have the chance to grapple with more advanced material to keep their brains and love of knowledge alive and ready to hit college well prepared.

    2) It's when black misbehavior moves from childish "acting up" to serious disruption and potentially even dangerous violence. And with early black sexual maturity, being immersed in black "adult" cultural norms is potentially mentally and morally degrading for whites.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Barnard, @Anonymouse, @Jack D

    , @Hangnail Hans
    @Desiderius

    Funny you should mention.

    https://www.latimes.com/science/story/2021-06-11/white-boys-who-grew-up-with-black-neighbors-are-more-likely-to-become-democrats-study-finds


    Who knows how legit the "study" is? What we know is how it will be used, and that no one will be permitted to question it.

    Replies: @Dr. DoomNGloom

    , @Alden
    @Desiderius

    So glad things are going well. But there are major differences between black 3 year olds black 8 year olds and even more black 13 year olds. Elementary school teachers tell me it’s about at age 8 or 9 blacks start to behave like well, blacks and it just get worse.

    Replies: @Anonymouse

  67. @Jonathan Mason
    So what was the race of the "school counselor" who didn't know how to properly calculate the GPA? Shouldn't this task have been given to the Head math teacher!

    I am guessing that it must have been a slide rule miscalculation, because they probably don't have computers yet in Mississippi.

    Thank goodness there were parents who were good at mental arithmetic. Probably carpetbaggers or immigrants.

    But funny how it worked out that there were now just two valedictorians and salutorians. It would have been a nightmare if it had turned out that they were half a dozen.

    Perhaps in future they should have two sets of everything.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Mike Tre, @Tom F., @Chris Mallory, @Calvin Hobbes, @guest

    So what was the race of the “school counselor” who didn’t know how to properly calculate the GPA? Shouldn’t this task have been given to the Head math teacher!

    Thank you for asking the most important unanswered question in this story.

  68. @Jack D
    @International Jew

    What white person allows their kid to attend a high school that is 80% black? I'd sell my blood plasma before I'd send my kids to an 80% black high school.

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @Huisache, @Desiderius, @AnotherDad, @International Jew, @Pseudonym

    What white person allows their kid to attend a high school that is 80% black? I’d sell my blood plasma before I’d send my kids to an 80% black high school.

    Unfortunately for these people, lawyers foreclosed that opportunity for people of insufficient means in Mississippi. Blood plasma donation won’t get it done.

    (You could say “Move!” “Move toward the Canadian border” … but not everyone wants to enjoy a Montana winter.)

    • Replies: @Icy Blast
    @AnotherDad

    Move to Billings. The winters are not full of Alaska-style blizzards and the summers are brutally hot.

    Replies: @Muggles

  69. @International Jew
    According to greatschools.org, this high school graduates about 185 kids each year, of whom about 150 are black and 35 are white. How plausible is it that the smartest kid in a given year will be black?

    To figure that out, let's go with the standard setup of two normal distributions and a 1 sd difference between the black mean and the white mean. The smartest kid among 35 whites is at the 97th percentile (1 - 1/35)×100%, which is 1.8 sd above the white mean. A black kid that smart would be 2.8 sd above the black mean, thus (again looking this up in the table, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_normal_table) at the 99.7th percentile for blacks, in other words one in 333 kids, so with 150 black kids per graduating class, you'd see that outcome about one year out of every two.

    So a black valedictorian isn't exactly what you'd bet on, but it's not a totally implausible outcome either.

    Replies: @Batman, @Pat Hannagan, @International Jew, @Jack D, @Abolish_public_education, @Some Guy, @Tom F., @Squid, @res, @DextersLabRat, @Pixo, @Paperback Writer

    The real story is that 165 other graduates had their GPAs miscalculated to non-zero values.

  70. OT: Buzz bomb / doodlebug (aka “shots ring out”) event in Austin

    We hear that

    attacker is believed to be a black man of “skinny” build with dreadlock-style hair

  71. @AnotherDad


    … In Mississippi, where some public schools once defied federal orders to admit Black students and issues of educational equity are still raw,
     
    Don't forget the pogroms! Don't forget the pogroms!


    BTW, hat tip to Ms. Saul for not going full Emmett Till on Mississippi which the younger (and dumber) lassies would tend to do. I guess growing up in Mississippi and being of a certain age once-upon-a-time segregated schools has enough racial frisson to give Ms. Saul tingles. So we are blissfully spared a much clunkier Tillating reference.

    I always take heart from these breathless stories of racial contention in some flyover Southern backwater ... that if this is NYT "news" then there must be integrated racial peace and harmony up in NYC.

    Replies: @njguy73

    OK, you don’t use the word “pogrom” unless you’re talking about Jews in Russia. That’s our oppression. No one gets to appropriate it.

  72. @Buzz Mohawk
    @International Jew

    Math is racist. Your calculations are bad international juju.

    The wisest thing the true winners could have done is keep their mouths shut and not ask for anything. Nothing good will come of this. Now that they are valedictorians and salad croutonatorians, are they all going to Harvard? How important is the title anyway? They should lose the honor again for being stupid enough to demand it against Blacks! in 2021.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @International Jew, @Brahmax

    Sorry, Buzz, I can’t help myself. I was like this in high school too and though it made me valedictorian, it never got me laid.

    • LOL: Buzz Mohawk
    • Replies: @AndrewR
    @International Jew

    Shocking

  73. @Jack D
    @International Jew

    What white person allows their kid to attend a high school that is 80% black? I'd sell my blood plasma before I'd send my kids to an 80% black high school.

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @Huisache, @Desiderius, @AnotherDad, @International Jew, @Pseudonym

    Believe it or not, the white valedictorian belongs to the Bryan family which, thanks to their meat plant, once owned the town. The south is different like that.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @International Jew

    Not just the South, but yes the South is too.

    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/221319.Lanterns_on_the_Levee

    Replies: @AnotherDad

    , @Calvin Hobbes
    @International Jew


    Believe it or not, the white valedictorian belongs to the Bryan family which, thanks to their meat plant, once owned the town. The south is different like that.
     
    NYT: “Some cited, at least in perception, family influence as a potential factor in the naming of co-honorees. Emma Berry is a descendant of the co-founder of Bryan Foods, once West Point’s largest employer. Even though the local Bryan pork processing factory shut down in 2007, the extended Bryan family remains among the town’s most influential. Several local institutions bear the family name, including the public library.”

    But maybe mom Emma Berry married down? Even in the south, I’d be surprised if rich whites were willing to send their kids to an 81% black high school.

    https://www.greatschools.org/mississippi/west-point/985-West-Point-High-School/

    Down near the bottom at this link, “ Students from low-income families” for West Point High is given as 100%.

    , @res
    @International Jew

    Thanks. That seems like a useful clue to this (especially the local reaction, on both sides). Where did you run across that info?

    greatschools.org shows four high schools in West Point.
    https://www.greatschools.org/mississippi/west-point/schools/?gradeLevels%5B%5D=h

    WPHS (81% black) is rated 3/10, but the other schools are unrated. The local private school (Oak Hill Academy, 99% white) is literally on the same street, just on the other side of Route 50 by a fair distance (why doesn't Google maps include a distance legend by default on their embedded maps?!).

    So why is the child of a prominent local white family going to WPHS rather than OHA? I wonder if OHA offers scholarships to capable but relatively poor whites.

    I think the part missing from your analysis is likely to be the smartest of the whites being siphoned off to OHA. Hard to account for that numerically.

    Looking some more at the WPHS info page the data under Race/ethnicity shows somewhat typical results for the respective scores/measures by race. I'm really not sure what is going on here. It would be useful to have some off the record testimony by locals.

    Replies: @Ralph L, @Desiderius

    , @Jack D
    @International Jew

    Unless they've lost all of their money, it's even more inexplicable. I don't care if it is the South - if I were living on the moon I still wouldn't send my kid to an 80% black school. And in such a small school there are not possibly enough talented tenth blacks to form a separate AP or IB track.

  74. @Desiderius
    @Jack D

    High school is one thing, but my wife and I had to make that decision for one of our three-year-old twins this past year and he made unexpectedly great progress.

    Maybe hanging around blacks is the long sought cure for autism.

    Replies: @AnotherDad, @Hangnail Hans, @Alden

    High school is one thing, but my wife and I had to make that decision for one of our three-year-old twins this past year and he made unexpectedly great progress.

    Maybe hanging around blacks is the long sought cure for autism.

    Good to hear your son is doing well.

    I think the general rule is that *big* issue really starts with puberty–Jr. HS. It’s two pronged.

    1) No one really needs to be taking calculus in 6th grade. It doesn’t really accomplish anything in terms of whether little Johnny with get his Nobel prize at 35 or have to wait until he’s 60. It’s really in HS where kids who are smart need to have the chance to grapple with more advanced material to keep their brains and love of knowledge alive and ready to hit college well prepared.

    2) It’s when black misbehavior moves from childish “acting up” to serious disruption and potentially even dangerous violence. And with early black sexual maturity, being immersed in black “adult” cultural norms is potentially mentally and morally degrading for whites.

    • Agree: RadicalCenter
    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @AnotherDad

    AD, yes, in pre-school through 5th grade or so, the black kids are not a real worry, except for one thing: too many and you know are you in the dumb kids class.

    It was uncanny. My wife wondered "hey we never got a letter that REDACTED [our going on 4th grade kid] is in the AP program". Well I don't think it's anything official, so I said "just look, there is 1 or maybe are 2 black kids out of his class of 20, there are 3 or 4 of them in the next class, and there are 8 out of 15 in the next class. It's obvious he's been with the smart kids." Funnily, these classes are in order in the yearbook, which is where I saw the demographics.

    , @Barnard
    @AnotherDad

    I have read several reports and heard from a few teachers who have first hand witnessed black elementary school kids engage in violent and/or sexual behavior in school. Serious disruptions are fairly common in diverse elementary schools. If you want your kids to be able to learn anything, keep them out of these schools.

    , @Anonymouse
    @AnotherDad

    Vibrant diversity finally came to our town (Austin Texas). Last night at 1am on the 400 block of East 6th street (our honky-tonk tenderloin area) a tall skinny black wearing dreadlocks shot 13 people WITH NO FATALITIES although 2 are in hospital in critical condition. We used to live on E. 6 many years ago. In those days the revelers were mostly white, black bars being on the east side of the Interstate Highway. The racial makeup of those shot has not been revealed.

    Replies: @Anonymouse

    , @Jack D
    @AnotherDad

    I agree with you that blacks are relatively OK before puberty (that's why I specified high school in my comment though I'd include middle school too).

    But as for the idea that no one really needs to be taking calculus in 6th grade, that's wrong. Every kid needs to be educated at their own level or they'll either be lost or else they'll be bored. If you are up to doing calculus in 6th grade then you should be doing calculus. And math is a young man's game as much as football is. If you waste several of your prime math years spinning your wheels you are never getting those years back.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Art Deco, @Paperback Writer

  75. @Jonathan Mason
    So what was the race of the "school counselor" who didn't know how to properly calculate the GPA? Shouldn't this task have been given to the Head math teacher!

    I am guessing that it must have been a slide rule miscalculation, because they probably don't have computers yet in Mississippi.

    Thank goodness there were parents who were good at mental arithmetic. Probably carpetbaggers or immigrants.

    But funny how it worked out that there were now just two valedictorians and salutorians. It would have been a nightmare if it had turned out that they were half a dozen.

    Perhaps in future they should have two sets of everything.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Mike Tre, @Tom F., @Chris Mallory, @Calvin Hobbes, @guest

    I am guessing that it must have been a slide rule miscalculation, because they probably don’t have computers yet in Mississippi.

    The counselor used a weighted GPA that gave more points to AP classes instead of the traditional GPA where Business Math and Rocks for Jocks count the same as Calculus and Physics.

  76. @Jonathan Mason
    So what was the race of the "school counselor" who didn't know how to properly calculate the GPA? Shouldn't this task have been given to the Head math teacher!

    I am guessing that it must have been a slide rule miscalculation, because they probably don't have computers yet in Mississippi.

    Thank goodness there were parents who were good at mental arithmetic. Probably carpetbaggers or immigrants.

    But funny how it worked out that there were now just two valedictorians and salutorians. It would have been a nightmare if it had turned out that they were half a dozen.

    Perhaps in future they should have two sets of everything.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Mike Tre, @Tom F., @Chris Mallory, @Calvin Hobbes, @guest

    So what was the race of the “school counselor” who didn’t know how to properly calculate the GPA?

    The NYT article does not say, but the NYT says Burnell McDonald, the superintendent of West Point schools, is black.

    I don’t have a NYT subscription, but you can read this article and the comments without a subscription. There’s a lot of anti-white racism in the comments, but some comments take the side of the white students. There’s at least one comment asking what would have happened with the races reversed, with white students getting the awards even though the handbook rules would have given the awards to black students.

  77. @International Jew
    @Jack D

    Believe it or not, the white valedictorian belongs to the Bryan family which, thanks to their meat plant, once owned the town. The south is different like that.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Calvin Hobbes, @res, @Jack D

    Not just the South, but yes the South is too.

    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/221319.Lanterns_on_the_Levee

    • Replies: @AnotherDad
    @Desiderius

    Thanks Desiderius. Being a midwesterner by ancestry and upbringing, that looks interesting to me. I'll give it a read.

    Replies: @Desiderius

  78. @International Jew
    @International Jew

    On the other hand...
    The odds against black kids taking both of the top two slots are pretty long. The second-smartest kid out of 35 white kids will be at the 94th percentile for whites (1 - 2/35), thus 1.6 sd above the white mean. A black valedictorian + salutatorian means two black kids 2.6 sd above the black mean. The table says 2.6 sd is the top 0.466% of the population. So two of those will occur just 0.00466^2 of the time, or once every 46,000 (black) kids, ie once in about 300 years of graduating classes.

    Replies: @Papinian, @Buzz Mohawk, @Bardon Kaldian, @Jim Lahey, @Flemur, @Achmed E. Newman, @KL, @Sean c

    My DIMS (Does It Make Sense) meter is buzzing right now, after this 2nd set of numbers, I.J. I can’t put my finger on the terminology (“choose 2 out of …” something).

    Let’s see, if the means and S.D.s held, you calculated that 1 in 333 of the black kids would be at that +2.8 black-σ level that beats out the +1.8 white=σ on smarts. However, all it takes is another 1 in 333 black kids of the same population (minus the one) to get those 2*.

    **************************
    I’m no Vegas Playa’, but it’s easy from me to think dice. Let’s say you do 150 rolls of a 333-sided dice (tricky to manufacture, so I guess in reality it’d be a computer random 1-333 integer generator). In those rolls, you have ~ a 50% chance of getting that 333, as you explained. If you did 333 rolls, of course it wouldn’t be a 100% chance you’d get a 333, but on average you’d get just 1.

    However, in how many rolls of the same dice can you expect to get 2 of those 333’s? It’s not 333^2. That’d be the odds of rolling 2 of these screwy dice together and getting 2 333’s at the same time, assuming this wasn’t mob-run Lost Wages. For what you are doing, wouldn’t it be just 666 (Uh-oh!) rolls to hit, on average, 2 333’s?

    That doesn’t quite work though for this: 4-5 years of these kids ought to get you 2 kids at that +2.8 black-σ, but then they must be from the same graduating class. I leave that trivial last part as an exercise for the reader, as the stats professor is likely to say when his head hurts like mine does right now…
    **************************

    OK, International Jew, I’m sure I’ll be told if I’m full of it here, but one of the two of us is bound to get sent to the West Point High school counselor for some help with this. He knows what he’s doing, right? ;-}

    Seriously, I have a non-woke Stats guy I can ask this to, but it’s too early right now. Also, because not each population will be at that same mean and standard distribution each year, I have a feeling he’ll say this is more complicated than we are both making it, and that he’s got better things to do!

    .

    * It’s an extremely minor point, and you are rightly trying to keep this simple, but I guess one +2.8 black-σ kid and one +2.6 black-σ kid would be needed to beat out both the assumed mean/σ 2 white kids.

    • Replies: @bigdicknick
    @Achmed E. Newman

    because gpa is not an IQ test. If anything GPA rewards people for not challenging themselves. unlike an IQ test where you cannot choose the questions in advance. GPA mostly measures diligence and work ethic.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    , @International Jew
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Heh, you're right. I overlooked the fact that we don't care which two black kids are out at 2.6 sd. Thus I needed to multiply my 0.00466^2 by the number of ways you can choose two kids out of a set of 150, which is 150×149/2. And that gives us a probability of about 25%.

    Thanks. I had a bad feeling about my result too but I had to go back to sleep.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

  79. “then came the calls for a recount?”

    Wait, this is like a recount when Trump lost instead of a recount when Gore lost, right? Just checking.

    • Thanks: Some Guy
    • LOL: Calvin Hobbes
  80. @ScarletNumber
    The irony is the school tried to do the right thing by letting the black valedictorian and salutatorian keep their honors that they were wrongfully given, but nothing is ever good enough for them.

    Replies: @JimB, @Barack Obama's secret Unz account, @guest, @Hermes

    Well, not the right thing. Rather, a thing. They tried to do a thing.

    Didn’t work, because they’re meddling in a world where it’s not even all or nothing. It’s just ALL.

  81. @Jonathan Mason
    So what was the race of the "school counselor" who didn't know how to properly calculate the GPA? Shouldn't this task have been given to the Head math teacher!

    I am guessing that it must have been a slide rule miscalculation, because they probably don't have computers yet in Mississippi.

    Thank goodness there were parents who were good at mental arithmetic. Probably carpetbaggers or immigrants.

    But funny how it worked out that there were now just two valedictorians and salutorians. It would have been a nightmare if it had turned out that they were half a dozen.

    Perhaps in future they should have two sets of everything.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Mike Tre, @Tom F., @Chris Mallory, @Calvin Hobbes, @guest

    “Perhaps in future they should have two sets of everything”

    They had something like that in the past, called segregation.

    The future trends towards something like it, except everyone but whites will be allowed to have something for themselves. White money, in particular, will remain “integrated” in the pocket of every community.

  82. @International Jew

    In Mississippi, where some public schools once defied federal orders to admit Black students
     
    Steve, that was your cue to interject, "And 1965 was, what, about twenty years ago?"

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa, @AndrewR

    Last year

  83. @AnotherDad
    @Desiderius


    High school is one thing, but my wife and I had to make that decision for one of our three-year-old twins this past year and he made unexpectedly great progress.

    Maybe hanging around blacks is the long sought cure for autism.
     
    Good to hear your son is doing well.

    I think the general rule is that *big* issue really starts with puberty--Jr. HS. It's two pronged.

    1) No one really needs to be taking calculus in 6th grade. It doesn't really accomplish anything in terms of whether little Johnny with get his Nobel prize at 35 or have to wait until he's 60. It's really in HS where kids who are smart need to have the chance to grapple with more advanced material to keep their brains and love of knowledge alive and ready to hit college well prepared.

    2) It's when black misbehavior moves from childish "acting up" to serious disruption and potentially even dangerous violence. And with early black sexual maturity, being immersed in black "adult" cultural norms is potentially mentally and morally degrading for whites.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Barnard, @Anonymouse, @Jack D

    AD, yes, in pre-school through 5th grade or so, the black kids are not a real worry, except for one thing: too many and you know are you in the dumb kids class.

    It was uncanny. My wife wondered “hey we never got a letter that REDACTED [our going on 4th grade kid] is in the AP program”. Well I don’t think it’s anything official, so I said “just look, there is 1 or maybe are 2 black kids out of his class of 20, there are 3 or 4 of them in the next class, and there are 8 out of 15 in the next class. It’s obvious he’s been with the smart kids.” Funnily, these classes are in order in the yearbook, which is where I saw the demographics.

  84. @International Jew
    @Buzz Mohawk

    Sorry, Buzz, I can't help myself. I was like this in high school too and though it made me valedictorian, it never got me laid.

    Replies: @AndrewR

    Shocking

  85. @International Jew
    @Jack D

    Believe it or not, the white valedictorian belongs to the Bryan family which, thanks to their meat plant, once owned the town. The south is different like that.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Calvin Hobbes, @res, @Jack D

    Believe it or not, the white valedictorian belongs to the Bryan family which, thanks to their meat plant, once owned the town. The south is different like that.

    NYT: “Some cited, at least in perception, family influence as a potential factor in the naming of co-honorees. Emma Berry is a descendant of the co-founder of Bryan Foods, once West Point’s largest employer. Even though the local Bryan pork processing factory shut down in 2007, the extended Bryan family remains among the town’s most influential. Several local institutions bear the family name, including the public library.”

    But maybe mom Emma Berry married down? Even in the south, I’d be surprised if rich whites were willing to send their kids to an 81% black high school.

    https://www.greatschools.org/mississippi/west-point/985-West-Point-High-School/

    Down near the bottom at this link, “ Students from low-income families” for West Point High is given as 100%.

  86. @International Jew
    According to greatschools.org, this high school graduates about 185 kids each year, of whom about 150 are black and 35 are white. How plausible is it that the smartest kid in a given year will be black?

    To figure that out, let's go with the standard setup of two normal distributions and a 1 sd difference between the black mean and the white mean. The smartest kid among 35 whites is at the 97th percentile (1 - 1/35)×100%, which is 1.8 sd above the white mean. A black kid that smart would be 2.8 sd above the black mean, thus (again looking this up in the table, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_normal_table) at the 99.7th percentile for blacks, in other words one in 333 kids, so with 150 black kids per graduating class, you'd see that outcome about one year out of every two.

    So a black valedictorian isn't exactly what you'd bet on, but it's not a totally implausible outcome either.

    Replies: @Batman, @Pat Hannagan, @International Jew, @Jack D, @Abolish_public_education, @Some Guy, @Tom F., @Squid, @res, @DextersLabRat, @Pixo, @Paperback Writer

    How plausible is it that the smartest kid in a given year will be black?

    Unweighted GPA isn’t a great measure of smartness though.

    so with 150 black kids per graduating class, you’d see that outcome about one year out of every two.

    Except if the highest performing white kid in that year is also above expectations that year, which has a 50% chance of happening.

  87. KL says:
    @International Jew
    @International Jew

    On the other hand...
    The odds against black kids taking both of the top two slots are pretty long. The second-smartest kid out of 35 white kids will be at the 94th percentile for whites (1 - 2/35), thus 1.6 sd above the white mean. A black valedictorian + salutatorian means two black kids 2.6 sd above the black mean. The table says 2.6 sd is the top 0.466% of the population. So two of those will occur just 0.00466^2 of the time, or once every 46,000 (black) kids, ie once in about 300 years of graduating classes.

    Replies: @Papinian, @Buzz Mohawk, @Bardon Kaldian, @Jim Lahey, @Flemur, @Achmed E. Newman, @KL, @Sean c

    You are innumerate. It is silly to have a black valedictorian in half the years, but an additional black salutatorian every 300 years.

    Using the negative binomial distribution with 150 students, there will be at least 2 students above the .9934 fractile over 15% of the time, more than one out of seven years.

    This is only a correction to your calculation; you should really use the extreme value distribution.

  88. @International Jew
    According to greatschools.org, this high school graduates about 185 kids each year, of whom about 150 are black and 35 are white. How plausible is it that the smartest kid in a given year will be black?

    To figure that out, let's go with the standard setup of two normal distributions and a 1 sd difference between the black mean and the white mean. The smartest kid among 35 whites is at the 97th percentile (1 - 1/35)×100%, which is 1.8 sd above the white mean. A black kid that smart would be 2.8 sd above the black mean, thus (again looking this up in the table, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_normal_table) at the 99.7th percentile for blacks, in other words one in 333 kids, so with 150 black kids per graduating class, you'd see that outcome about one year out of every two.

    So a black valedictorian isn't exactly what you'd bet on, but it's not a totally implausible outcome either.

    Replies: @Batman, @Pat Hannagan, @International Jew, @Jack D, @Abolish_public_education, @Some Guy, @Tom F., @Squid, @res, @DextersLabRat, @Pixo, @Paperback Writer

    The smartest kid among….

    I take your point.

    My recollection is that ‘smartest’ didn’t have much to do with the ‘highest GPA.’ Recent social conversations with public school teachers have revealed to me that the teachers are quite a bit more lenient with the Vibrant students. Teachers, as they explained to me, are hopeful that the little boost they give will translate into keeping them in school longer and open up more university potential for them. No answer as to how the expectations of those students will fit with performance at university, and later the boring grind of a full time job/career. (My own unspoken solution would be to make them ‘teachers’ and ‘school counselors’)

  89. If grades in AP classes are treated differently from grades in non-AP classes, then the score on the AP exam should be factored in. An A in an AP class should not count as better than an A in a non-AP class if the student did not take the AP exam or got a 1 on the AP exam.

    I would not be surprised if students in AP classes at West Point High seldom get around to taking the AP exams.

    Is there anything that prevents a school from just labeling certain courses as AP? Does anybody check whether an “AP” course covers what that AP course is supposed to cover?

    It would be particularly interesting to find out how academic stars Ikeria Washington and Layla Temple did on AP exams. Their SAT/ACT scores would also be interesting.

    • Replies: @vhrm
    @Calvin Hobbes


    Is there anything that prevents a school from just labeling certain courses as AP? Does anybody check whether an “AP” course covers what that AP course is supposed to cover?
     
    Each school has to get each class audited by the College Board company before it can be labled an AP course. (https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/courses/ap-course-audit )

    That said i don't think there are any standards in there for percentage of students that take the test or scores they must demonstrate or any analysis of grade vs test score.

    Replies: @Houston 1992

  90. Anonymous[117] • Disclaimer says:

    Cue “Two Wongs don’t make a White”.

  91. @International Jew
    According to greatschools.org, this high school graduates about 185 kids each year, of whom about 150 are black and 35 are white. How plausible is it that the smartest kid in a given year will be black?

    To figure that out, let's go with the standard setup of two normal distributions and a 1 sd difference between the black mean and the white mean. The smartest kid among 35 whites is at the 97th percentile (1 - 1/35)×100%, which is 1.8 sd above the white mean. A black kid that smart would be 2.8 sd above the black mean, thus (again looking this up in the table, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_normal_table) at the 99.7th percentile for blacks, in other words one in 333 kids, so with 150 black kids per graduating class, you'd see that outcome about one year out of every two.

    So a black valedictorian isn't exactly what you'd bet on, but it's not a totally implausible outcome either.

    Replies: @Batman, @Pat Hannagan, @International Jew, @Jack D, @Abolish_public_education, @Some Guy, @Tom F., @Squid, @res, @DextersLabRat, @Pixo, @Paperback Writer

    Clever, but irrelevant. You have shown that a black valedictorian is not statistically improbable. However, it appears that the objection to the choices was not that two black honorees were statistically improbable, but that the math used to choose them was demonstrably in error. Your observation is a red herring. It is hard to believe that someone smart enough to make it is careless enough to believe it is relevant.

  92. @Achmed E. Newman
    @International Jew

    My DIMS (Does It Make Sense) meter is buzzing right now, after this 2nd set of numbers, I.J. I can't put my finger on the terminology ("choose 2 out of ..." something).

    Let's see, if the means and S.D.s held, you calculated that 1 in 333 of the black kids would be at that +2.8 black-σ level that beats out the +1.8 white=σ on smarts. However, all it takes is another 1 in 333 black kids of the same population (minus the one) to get those 2*.


    **************************
    I'm no Vegas Playa', but it's easy from me to think dice. Let's say you do 150 rolls of a 333-sided dice (tricky to manufacture, so I guess in reality it'd be a computer random 1-333 integer generator). In those rolls, you have ~ a 50% chance of getting that 333, as you explained. If you did 333 rolls, of course it wouldn't be a 100% chance you'd get a 333, but on average you'd get just 1.

    However, in how many rolls of the same dice can you expect to get 2 of those 333's? It's not 333^2. That'd be the odds of rolling 2 of these screwy dice together and getting 2 333's at the same time, assuming this wasn't mob-run Lost Wages. For what you are doing, wouldn't it be just 666 (Uh-oh!) rolls to hit, on average, 2 333's?

    That doesn't quite work though for this: 4-5 years of these kids ought to get you 2 kids at that +2.8 black-σ, but then they must be from the same graduating class. I leave that trivial last part as an exercise for the reader, as the stats professor is likely to say when his head hurts like mine does right now...
    **************************

    OK, International Jew, I'm sure I'll be told if I'm full of it here, but one of the two of us is bound to get sent to the West Point High school counselor for some help with this. He knows what he's doing, right? ;-}

    Seriously, I have a non-woke Stats guy I can ask this to, but it's too early right now. Also, because not each population will be at that same mean and standard distribution each year, I have a feeling he'll say this is more complicated than we are both making it, and that he's got better things to do!

    .


    * It's an extremely minor point, and you are rightly trying to keep this simple, but I guess one +2.8 black-σ kid and one +2.6 black-σ kid would be needed to beat out both the assumed mean/σ 2 white kids.

    Replies: @bigdicknick, @International Jew

    because gpa is not an IQ test. If anything GPA rewards people for not challenging themselves. unlike an IQ test where you cannot choose the questions in advance. GPA mostly measures diligence and work ethic.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @bigdicknick

    We were just doing stats here Nick, or as best as I can. What you wrote is probably true, but not the point of the exchange about IJ's numbers. I found something that bugged me about the stats calculations.

  93. @AnotherDad
    @Desiderius


    High school is one thing, but my wife and I had to make that decision for one of our three-year-old twins this past year and he made unexpectedly great progress.

    Maybe hanging around blacks is the long sought cure for autism.
     
    Good to hear your son is doing well.

    I think the general rule is that *big* issue really starts with puberty--Jr. HS. It's two pronged.

    1) No one really needs to be taking calculus in 6th grade. It doesn't really accomplish anything in terms of whether little Johnny with get his Nobel prize at 35 or have to wait until he's 60. It's really in HS where kids who are smart need to have the chance to grapple with more advanced material to keep their brains and love of knowledge alive and ready to hit college well prepared.

    2) It's when black misbehavior moves from childish "acting up" to serious disruption and potentially even dangerous violence. And with early black sexual maturity, being immersed in black "adult" cultural norms is potentially mentally and morally degrading for whites.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Barnard, @Anonymouse, @Jack D

    I have read several reports and heard from a few teachers who have first hand witnessed black elementary school kids engage in violent and/or sexual behavior in school. Serious disruptions are fairly common in diverse elementary schools. If you want your kids to be able to learn anything, keep them out of these schools.

  94. Anonymous[117] • Disclaimer says:

    OT.

    On the AIDS related death of Tommy Lasorda’s son,

    “Those who live by La Sword, die by La Sword”.

    (Sorry).

    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    @Anonymous

    GQ had an interesting article about that back in 1992.

    Read it here. Sort of painful to read.

    https://deadspin.com/the-brief-life-and-complicated-death-of-tommy-lasordas-485999366

  95. res says:
    @International Jew
    According to greatschools.org, this high school graduates about 185 kids each year, of whom about 150 are black and 35 are white. How plausible is it that the smartest kid in a given year will be black?

    To figure that out, let's go with the standard setup of two normal distributions and a 1 sd difference between the black mean and the white mean. The smartest kid among 35 whites is at the 97th percentile (1 - 1/35)×100%, which is 1.8 sd above the white mean. A black kid that smart would be 2.8 sd above the black mean, thus (again looking this up in the table, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_normal_table) at the 99.7th percentile for blacks, in other words one in 333 kids, so with 150 black kids per graduating class, you'd see that outcome about one year out of every two.

    So a black valedictorian isn't exactly what you'd bet on, but it's not a totally implausible outcome either.

    Replies: @Batman, @Pat Hannagan, @International Jew, @Jack D, @Abolish_public_education, @Some Guy, @Tom F., @Squid, @res, @DextersLabRat, @Pixo, @Paperback Writer

    Thanks for your analysis. I tend to agree with “on the other hand.” What would make this even more interesting is to see the actual numbers for say the top 10 using both methods of calculation.

    Could someone elaborate on how the computations differed? I’m paywalled out of the NYT article, but the top comments seem to indicate that the difference was accounting for AP classes (by boosting their GPA) and that the black students were the ones who took more AP classes. If that is the case, I am kind of with the black students on this one. Sandbagging your GPA by taking easy classes is lame. In that case, the error would be with the handbook, and should just be fixed. With giving two sets of awards seeming reasonable given “those are the rules.”

    This local article has some more details, but not enough to really understand (normally that would seem like a clue to me).
    https://mississippitoday.org/2021/06/02/west-point-valedictorian-dispute-sparks-allegations-of-racism/

    McDonald told Mississippi Today the high school guidance counselor was new to the school and was given incorrect information about how to determine the designations. The counselor selected the two students based on quality point average (QPA), which is measured on a 4.0 scale, instead of a strict numerical average of the students’ semester grades over their high school career, which the district defines as its grade point average (GPA), he said.

    McDonald said he looked at how valedictorian and salutatorian had been determined in past years and saw it was based on a 0-100 scale, or what the school refers to as GPA. The initial calculation was not conducted the proper way, he said.

    But the handbook a few pages later says GPA “is calculated by averaging the grade point weights assigned to semester averages,” which are 0.0 through 4.0. It goes on to say “Some classes may be weighted double see guidance counselors for this information..” (sic)

    A few pages earlier, under “Class Rank,” the handbook simply says “A student’s rank in his/her graduating class will be calculated by averaging his/her semester averages.”

    “(The parents’) argument was that based on our handbook, we should’ve been using semester averages,” he said. “And when you generate the report from the system, it clearly shows the two white students would’ve been first and second based on that number.”

    This article cites the NYT
    https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/558068-white-parents-claim-calculation-error-after-two-black-students-get-high

    According to the Times, the initial grade calculation was based on quality point average, which gives extra weight to grades from advanced placement courses. The second calculation was based on unweighted grade point average.

    • Replies: @vhrm
    @res

    The times article only says


    At issue was just how to calculate who the top two students were. Ikeria and Layla won based on a calculation of quality point average or Q.P.A., a system of calculating grades that gave extra weight to advanced placement and dual credit courses. But, it turned out, Dominic and Emma were the top two finishers based on unweighted grade point average.

     

    From the moment i saw the lede on this i suspected it would be a weighted GPA vs non-weighted GPA issue, but i wrongly ( racistly?) assumed that it was the white kids who had the higher weighted GPA.

    In a lot of US high schools for GPA purposes you get some sort of bonus for taking honors or AP classes by multiplying those scores by 1.1 for honors and 1.2 for AP ( or 1.05 and 1.1 ).
    So an A for an AP class might be 4.8 point a 95 would count as 114 etc. so i assumed that's what it was.

    But reading that Mississippi Today piece that you linked it seems more complicated. Of course, i also shake my head at the NYT reporters for not being able to spell out what ACTUALLY happened but at the same time being sure it's all about 150 years of racism.

    Replies: @Desiderius

    , @Desiderius
    @res

    That's the +2 SD take. Taking only weighted classes is the way the grinders game the system. The best class in my high school was an elective called Humanities taught by an autodidact drama teacher/MLB umpire local celeb, but it wasn't weighted. Savvy kids took it, grinders didn't. Likewise Home Ec I think and a couple others.

    , @Gamecock
    @res


    McDonald told Mississippi Today the high school guidance counselor was new to the school and was given incorrect information about how to determine the designations.
     
    So the counselor just did what she was told to do. IOW, she is not the perp. But her boss is happy to put the blame on her.
  96. @Achmed E. Newman
    And in the nearly one hundred and fifty-eight years and three weeks since that senior awards night start of the battle, West Point Vicksburg, a mostly Black town in the northeastern part on the western edge of the state, has been split largely along racial lines, roiled by a dispute that included threats secession, a potential lawsuit Western theater of the War of Northern Aggression, an occupation a Reconstruction, and allegations of racism posted on Facebook in the NY Times.

    FIFT, give me some NEW news, people.

    Replies: @Supply and Demand

    Mr. Newman, given the surnames of the other two valedictorians (Berry, Anglo-Jewish of French extraction) & Borgioli (Italian) — this would imply that it’s merely black-on-carpetbagger crime.

    Anyone from the North who crosses the Mason-Dixon Line to live should be prepared to be devoured by the barbaric negroes and the even more barbaric and africanized Scotch-Irish Protestants. There’s no point in living in the jungle when there’s utopia everywhere North of Kentucky and West of Texas.

    • Troll: Chris Mallory
  97. West Point is the home of three high schools: West Point High School, the town’s lone public high school, offers a diverse classroom environment and is the largest of the three. Oak Hill Academy and Hebron Christian School are tuition based private schools.

    Oak Hill Academy is a private PK-12 school that was founded in 1966 as a segregation academy for white students

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/West_Point%2C_Mississippi

    In 1987, Oak Hill was still an all-white school, as described in Fyfe v. Curlee.[3] In 2016, the school had no black students registered.[2] By 2021, the National Center for Education Statistics reported the school had 279 students, of whom two were Black and four Hispanic.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oak_Hill_Academy_(Mississippi)

    West Point High School is ranked #88 in Mississippi High Schools

    #10,436 in the National Rankings.

    Total Economically Disadvantaged (% of total) 100%

    https://www.usnews.com/education/best-high-schools/mississippi/districts/west-point-consolidated-school-district/west-point-high-school-200523

    West Point ought to enjoy its time in the sun. The NYT won’t be calling again.

    • Thanks: vhrm
  98. A mistake was made. Sure.

  99. A question one might want to ask were one a real journalist rather than a journolist is this- what have been the ethnicities of, let’s say, they last 20 top pairs of students at this school?

  100. res says:
    @International Jew
    @Jack D

    Believe it or not, the white valedictorian belongs to the Bryan family which, thanks to their meat plant, once owned the town. The south is different like that.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Calvin Hobbes, @res, @Jack D

    Thanks. That seems like a useful clue to this (especially the local reaction, on both sides). Where did you run across that info?

    greatschools.org shows four high schools in West Point.
    https://www.greatschools.org/mississippi/west-point/schools/?gradeLevels%5B%5D=h

    WPHS (81% black) is rated 3/10, but the other schools are unrated. The local private school (Oak Hill Academy, 99% white) is literally on the same street, just on the other side of Route 50 by a fair distance (why doesn’t Google maps include a distance legend by default on their embedded maps?!).

    So why is the child of a prominent local white family going to WPHS rather than OHA? I wonder if OHA offers scholarships to capable but relatively poor whites.

    I think the part missing from your analysis is likely to be the smartest of the whites being siphoned off to OHA. Hard to account for that numerically.

    Looking some more at the WPHS info page the data under Race/ethnicity shows somewhat typical results for the respective scores/measures by race. I’m really not sure what is going on here. It would be useful to have some off the record testimony by locals.

    • Replies: @Ralph L
    @res

    So why is the child of a prominent local white family going to WPHS rather than OHA?

    Sports? Marching band? Aspiring rapper? Expelled from the private schools for bad behavior?

    , @Desiderius
    @res

    You don’t live in Mississippi in the first place if you don’t get along reasonably well with blacks. Doesn’t necessarily mean going to school with them, but obviously for some it does or The Blind Side wouldn’t have been such a hit.

    Yes, that even includes some oligarchs and aristocrats. Always has.

    Replies: @Stan d Mute, @Jack D

  101. this stuff came to my high school in the late 80s, early 90s, and isn’t isolated to stupid NYT race articles.

    it’s vicious war out there among the parents of the striver class. not even all the smart parents and smart students care that much about this stuff, but the striver parents care A LOT, and will subvert your class valedictorian process to get their kid some minor, college application related credential.

    my high school ended up with multiple valedictorians 30 years ago, and it was one of the best in the state with 12 or more national merit scholars some years.

  102. The irony is that the no-AP-bump scoring was probably started in the past to give black students a better ranking. I wonder if these white parents tried to game the system by keeping their kids out of AP classes to boost their class rank (pretty dumb IMO).

  103. @AnotherDad
    @Desiderius


    High school is one thing, but my wife and I had to make that decision for one of our three-year-old twins this past year and he made unexpectedly great progress.

    Maybe hanging around blacks is the long sought cure for autism.
     
    Good to hear your son is doing well.

    I think the general rule is that *big* issue really starts with puberty--Jr. HS. It's two pronged.

    1) No one really needs to be taking calculus in 6th grade. It doesn't really accomplish anything in terms of whether little Johnny with get his Nobel prize at 35 or have to wait until he's 60. It's really in HS where kids who are smart need to have the chance to grapple with more advanced material to keep their brains and love of knowledge alive and ready to hit college well prepared.

    2) It's when black misbehavior moves from childish "acting up" to serious disruption and potentially even dangerous violence. And with early black sexual maturity, being immersed in black "adult" cultural norms is potentially mentally and morally degrading for whites.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Barnard, @Anonymouse, @Jack D

    Vibrant diversity finally came to our town (Austin Texas). Last night at 1am on the 400 block of East 6th street (our honky-tonk tenderloin area) a tall skinny black wearing dreadlocks shot 13 people WITH NO FATALITIES although 2 are in hospital in critical condition. We used to live on E. 6 many years ago. In those days the revelers were mostly white, black bars being on the east side of the Interstate Highway. The racial makeup of those shot has not been revealed.

    • Replies: @Anonymouse
    @Anonymouse

    I wrote "The racial makeup of those shot has not been revealed."

    This quote suggests that the chap with the dreadlocks shot at a bunch of white people: “We were in line to a get into a bar on Sixth Street,” said witness Matt Perlstein. “Everything was totally fine.”

  104. @res
    @International Jew

    Thanks. That seems like a useful clue to this (especially the local reaction, on both sides). Where did you run across that info?

    greatschools.org shows four high schools in West Point.
    https://www.greatschools.org/mississippi/west-point/schools/?gradeLevels%5B%5D=h

    WPHS (81% black) is rated 3/10, but the other schools are unrated. The local private school (Oak Hill Academy, 99% white) is literally on the same street, just on the other side of Route 50 by a fair distance (why doesn't Google maps include a distance legend by default on their embedded maps?!).

    So why is the child of a prominent local white family going to WPHS rather than OHA? I wonder if OHA offers scholarships to capable but relatively poor whites.

    I think the part missing from your analysis is likely to be the smartest of the whites being siphoned off to OHA. Hard to account for that numerically.

    Looking some more at the WPHS info page the data under Race/ethnicity shows somewhat typical results for the respective scores/measures by race. I'm really not sure what is going on here. It would be useful to have some off the record testimony by locals.

    Replies: @Ralph L, @Desiderius

    So why is the child of a prominent local white family going to WPHS rather than OHA?

    Sports? Marching band? Aspiring rapper? Expelled from the private schools for bad behavior?

  105. Off topic:

    Steve

    What did Fort Carson Battalion Commander Lieutenant Colonel Andrew Rhodes say to his White Troops?

    Lieutenant Colonel Andrew Rhodes is White by the way….

    • Replies: @anon
    @War for Blair Mountain

    You need to learn how to copy - paste a link into the Comment box.

    Now.

    Replies: @War for Blair Mountain

  106. included threats, a potential lawsuit and allegations of racism posted on Facebook.

    Clown World

    • Agree: Yancey Ward
  107. @Desiderius
    @Jack D

    High school is one thing, but my wife and I had to make that decision for one of our three-year-old twins this past year and he made unexpectedly great progress.

    Maybe hanging around blacks is the long sought cure for autism.

    Replies: @AnotherDad, @Hangnail Hans, @Alden

    Funny you should mention.

    https://www.latimes.com/science/story/2021-06-11/white-boys-who-grew-up-with-black-neighbors-are-more-likely-to-become-democrats-study-finds

    Who knows how legit the “study” is? What we know is how it will be used, and that no one will be permitted to question it.

    • Replies: @Dr. DoomNGloom
    @Hangnail Hans


    Who knows how legit the “study” is?
     
    Proxy for live in the city. Few Sociologists are strong on causation.
  108. @Achmed E. Newman
    @Jonathan Mason


    Perhaps in future they should have two sets of everything.
     
    By George, I think you're onto something here, Mason. White Valedictorian, black Valedictorian, white Salutatorian, black Salutatorian, white graduation, black graduation, white side of the school, black side of the school ... hey, wait a minute!

    Replies: @The Alarmist, @Boy the way Glenn Miller played, @Jonathan Mason, @Jonathan Mason

    I have often told my black friends that since they say the mixed school system is so unfair to blacks, it would be better for them to have all black schools with all black teachers–maybe just a token white teacher or two–like they do in places like Jamaica, or at least have the option to attend all black schools.

    In that way they could have their own curriculum and use their own teaching methods, serve their own food at lunches, listen to their own kind of music, and so on.

    Win-win. Or so you would think.

    But they are quick to respond that they DO want to stay within the mixed system, so I guess it’s not quite as bad as all that.

    The situation today is quite different from the 1960s in the Deep South, and nobody would want to put any children in second-class mosquito-infested schools where they had no books or running water and get pigs’ feet for lunch.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @Jonathan Mason

    The situation in the 1960s in the Deep South was quite different from the propaganda you’ve lapped up.

    Replies: @Jonathan Mason

  109. Off topic, another test of the Sailer law of mass shootings.

    https://news.trust.org/item/20210612092109-wos3p

    1:30 AM shooting, 13 wounded – none dead and only two in critical condition

  110. @International Jew
    @Jack D

    Believe it or not, the white valedictorian belongs to the Bryan family which, thanks to their meat plant, once owned the town. The south is different like that.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Calvin Hobbes, @res, @Jack D

    Unless they’ve lost all of their money, it’s even more inexplicable. I don’t care if it is the South – if I were living on the moon I still wouldn’t send my kid to an 80% black school. And in such a small school there are not possibly enough talented tenth blacks to form a separate AP or IB track.

  111. @Achmed E. Newman
    @Jonathan Mason


    Perhaps in future they should have two sets of everything.
     
    By George, I think you're onto something here, Mason. White Valedictorian, black Valedictorian, white Salutatorian, black Salutatorian, white graduation, black graduation, white side of the school, black side of the school ... hey, wait a minute!

    Replies: @The Alarmist, @Boy the way Glenn Miller played, @Jonathan Mason, @Jonathan Mason

    Funny you should almost mention George Mason. A pretty distant cousin of mine, but one of the authors of the Bill of Rights.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @Jonathan Mason

    Your cousin could have taught you to respect that Bill of Rights too. Woulda', coulda', shoulda' ...

    .

    "... George ... Mason..." I do get it, though.

  112. @International Jew
    According to greatschools.org, this high school graduates about 185 kids each year, of whom about 150 are black and 35 are white. How plausible is it that the smartest kid in a given year will be black?

    To figure that out, let's go with the standard setup of two normal distributions and a 1 sd difference between the black mean and the white mean. The smartest kid among 35 whites is at the 97th percentile (1 - 1/35)×100%, which is 1.8 sd above the white mean. A black kid that smart would be 2.8 sd above the black mean, thus (again looking this up in the table, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_normal_table) at the 99.7th percentile for blacks, in other words one in 333 kids, so with 150 black kids per graduating class, you'd see that outcome about one year out of every two.

    So a black valedictorian isn't exactly what you'd bet on, but it's not a totally implausible outcome either.

    Replies: @Batman, @Pat Hannagan, @International Jew, @Jack D, @Abolish_public_education, @Some Guy, @Tom F., @Squid, @res, @DextersLabRat, @Pixo, @Paperback Writer

    The white parents failed by having their kids in a 80% black school in the first place.

  113. @Anonymouse
    @AnotherDad

    Vibrant diversity finally came to our town (Austin Texas). Last night at 1am on the 400 block of East 6th street (our honky-tonk tenderloin area) a tall skinny black wearing dreadlocks shot 13 people WITH NO FATALITIES although 2 are in hospital in critical condition. We used to live on E. 6 many years ago. In those days the revelers were mostly white, black bars being on the east side of the Interstate Highway. The racial makeup of those shot has not been revealed.

    Replies: @Anonymouse

    I wrote “The racial makeup of those shot has not been revealed.”

    This quote suggests that the chap with the dreadlocks shot at a bunch of white people: “We were in line to a get into a bar on Sixth Street,” said witness Matt Perlstein. “Everything was totally fine.”

  114. @res
    @International Jew

    Thanks. That seems like a useful clue to this (especially the local reaction, on both sides). Where did you run across that info?

    greatschools.org shows four high schools in West Point.
    https://www.greatschools.org/mississippi/west-point/schools/?gradeLevels%5B%5D=h

    WPHS (81% black) is rated 3/10, but the other schools are unrated. The local private school (Oak Hill Academy, 99% white) is literally on the same street, just on the other side of Route 50 by a fair distance (why doesn't Google maps include a distance legend by default on their embedded maps?!).

    So why is the child of a prominent local white family going to WPHS rather than OHA? I wonder if OHA offers scholarships to capable but relatively poor whites.

    I think the part missing from your analysis is likely to be the smartest of the whites being siphoned off to OHA. Hard to account for that numerically.

    Looking some more at the WPHS info page the data under Race/ethnicity shows somewhat typical results for the respective scores/measures by race. I'm really not sure what is going on here. It would be useful to have some off the record testimony by locals.

    Replies: @Ralph L, @Desiderius

    You don’t live in Mississippi in the first place if you don’t get along reasonably well with blacks. Doesn’t necessarily mean going to school with them, but obviously for some it does or The Blind Side wouldn’t have been such a hit.

    Yes, that even includes some oligarchs and aristocrats. Always has.

    • Replies: @Stan d Mute
    @Desiderius


    You don’t live in Mississippi in the first place if you don’t get along reasonably well with blacks.
     
    There is a definite difference between northern and southern negroes. Having been raised among the northern variety in Detriot, it was an enormous cultural shock when I began doing business and traveling extensively in the south. I have also seen a vast difference between American and Canadian negroes with the Canucks being far more housebroken. Shouldn’t our northern negroes more resemble the Canadian variety? Why are they worse than their southern cousins?

    Replies: @Ralph L

    , @Jack D
    @Desiderius

    The Blind Side was a hit because it played into white liberal fantasy wish fulfillment - blacks are wonderful talented non-violent people who just need a little help from whites and then their talents will blossom. This has nothing to do with life in actual Mississippi. The real Oher had a 0.76 point GPA - it wouldn't surprise me if he was mentally retarded. His father was murdered in prison and his mother was a crack addict. If some goodwhite family had taken Oher in and he had raped their daughter, would they have made a Hollywood movie about it?

  115. My question is what “method of calculation” would just happen to produce the two smartest black students.

    (SUM of ALL GRADES / NUMBER of GRADES GIVEN) + 1619

  116. @AnotherDad
    @Desiderius


    High school is one thing, but my wife and I had to make that decision for one of our three-year-old twins this past year and he made unexpectedly great progress.

    Maybe hanging around blacks is the long sought cure for autism.
     
    Good to hear your son is doing well.

    I think the general rule is that *big* issue really starts with puberty--Jr. HS. It's two pronged.

    1) No one really needs to be taking calculus in 6th grade. It doesn't really accomplish anything in terms of whether little Johnny with get his Nobel prize at 35 or have to wait until he's 60. It's really in HS where kids who are smart need to have the chance to grapple with more advanced material to keep their brains and love of knowledge alive and ready to hit college well prepared.

    2) It's when black misbehavior moves from childish "acting up" to serious disruption and potentially even dangerous violence. And with early black sexual maturity, being immersed in black "adult" cultural norms is potentially mentally and morally degrading for whites.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman, @Barnard, @Anonymouse, @Jack D

    I agree with you that blacks are relatively OK before puberty (that’s why I specified high school in my comment though I’d include middle school too).

    But as for the idea that no one really needs to be taking calculus in 6th grade, that’s wrong. Every kid needs to be educated at their own level or they’ll either be lost or else they’ll be bored. If you are up to doing calculus in 6th grade then you should be doing calculus. And math is a young man’s game as much as football is. If you waste several of your prime math years spinning your wheels you are never getting those years back.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @Jack D

    If you’re doing Advanced Math (whether Calculus should be segregated into Advanced is a whole different question) in 6th Grade the school curriculum is irrelevant to you.

    I learned from my dad’s textbooks starting in 2nd because it seemed natural to start on cursive math at the same time I was learning cursive writing.

    Kids who are into that math then will find a way to learn it. Most have more pressing concerns at that age. They’ll have time for real analysis and whatever later.

    Your continued AP/IB idolatry is quaint, but it’s been the steady emptying out of those curricula that has left them vulnerable to the wokel takeover.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Anonymous

    , @Art Deco
    @Jack D

    If you are up to doing calculus in 6th grade then you should be doing calculus.

    Doogie Howser, MD was fictional Jack.

    Replies: @Calvin Hobbes

    , @Paperback Writer
    @Jack D

    It's not a violent Northern school with triple sessions and hardened ghetto hood rats. The white kids are probably in academic-track classes. And the few whites who are not are probably having a good time f'ing up with their black buddies and playing on the sports teams.


    Feynman didn't study calc until high school:

    https://www.aip.org/history-programs/niels-bohr-library/oral-histories/5020-1

    As for hanging around with blacks after puberty, in general, this is a chilling story.

    http://danhill.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Every-Parents-Nightmare-McLeans-Feb09.pdf

    Replies: @Jack D

  117. @Jonathan Mason
    @Achmed E. Newman

    I have often told my black friends that since they say the mixed school system is so unfair to blacks, it would be better for them to have all black schools with all black teachers--maybe just a token white teacher or two--like they do in places like Jamaica, or at least have the option to attend all black schools.

    In that way they could have their own curriculum and use their own teaching methods, serve their own food at lunches, listen to their own kind of music, and so on.

    Win-win. Or so you would think.

    But they are quick to respond that they DO want to stay within the mixed system, so I guess it's not quite as bad as all that.

    The situation today is quite different from the 1960s in the Deep South, and nobody would want to put any children in second-class mosquito-infested schools where they had no books or running water and get pigs' feet for lunch.

    Replies: @Desiderius

    The situation in the 1960s in the Deep South was quite different from the propaganda you’ve lapped up.

    • Replies: @Jonathan Mason
    @Desiderius

    Well, that was the perception of the time.

    Of course the perception of the state of the Deep South in the 1960s was probably based more on how it actually was in the 1930s when the people who were adults in the 1960s had themselves been school children.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

  118. @AnotherDad
    @Jack D


    What white person allows their kid to attend a high school that is 80% black? I’d sell my blood plasma before I’d send my kids to an 80% black high school.
     
    Unfortunately for these people, lawyers foreclosed that opportunity for people of insufficient means in Mississippi. Blood plasma donation won't get it done.

    (You could say "Move!" "Move toward the Canadian border" ... but not everyone wants to enjoy a Montana winter.)

    Replies: @Icy Blast

    Move to Billings. The winters are not full of Alaska-style blizzards and the summers are brutally hot.

    • Replies: @Muggles
    @Icy Blast


    Move to Billings. The winters are not full of Alaska-style blizzards and the summers are brutally hot.
     
    Have you ever lived in Montana (I have).

    Yes, summers are hot and dry but since no one wants to pay for air conditioning, they suffer.

    Maybe not "Alaska-style blizzards" but since winter comes from Canada, it's Canadian style.

    However, most of those I went to school with still live there. So some like the weather.
  119. Anonymous[194] • Disclaimer says:

    A major co-factor of rancid racial discord on the national level, which oozes into local communities, rests on the maniacally activist lap of the New York Times.

    Former Op-Ed writer, and self-described liberal Bari Weiss laments over the collective insanity that continues to froth at that qualifiable mad house, which compelled her to resign from what she had originally considered as the best job a young journalist could achieve:

  120. @Achmed E. Newman
    @International Jew

    My DIMS (Does It Make Sense) meter is buzzing right now, after this 2nd set of numbers, I.J. I can't put my finger on the terminology ("choose 2 out of ..." something).

    Let's see, if the means and S.D.s held, you calculated that 1 in 333 of the black kids would be at that +2.8 black-σ level that beats out the +1.8 white=σ on smarts. However, all it takes is another 1 in 333 black kids of the same population (minus the one) to get those 2*.


    **************************
    I'm no Vegas Playa', but it's easy from me to think dice. Let's say you do 150 rolls of a 333-sided dice (tricky to manufacture, so I guess in reality it'd be a computer random 1-333 integer generator). In those rolls, you have ~ a 50% chance of getting that 333, as you explained. If you did 333 rolls, of course it wouldn't be a 100% chance you'd get a 333, but on average you'd get just 1.

    However, in how many rolls of the same dice can you expect to get 2 of those 333's? It's not 333^2. That'd be the odds of rolling 2 of these screwy dice together and getting 2 333's at the same time, assuming this wasn't mob-run Lost Wages. For what you are doing, wouldn't it be just 666 (Uh-oh!) rolls to hit, on average, 2 333's?

    That doesn't quite work though for this: 4-5 years of these kids ought to get you 2 kids at that +2.8 black-σ, but then they must be from the same graduating class. I leave that trivial last part as an exercise for the reader, as the stats professor is likely to say when his head hurts like mine does right now...
    **************************

    OK, International Jew, I'm sure I'll be told if I'm full of it here, but one of the two of us is bound to get sent to the West Point High school counselor for some help with this. He knows what he's doing, right? ;-}

    Seriously, I have a non-woke Stats guy I can ask this to, but it's too early right now. Also, because not each population will be at that same mean and standard distribution each year, I have a feeling he'll say this is more complicated than we are both making it, and that he's got better things to do!

    .


    * It's an extremely minor point, and you are rightly trying to keep this simple, but I guess one +2.8 black-σ kid and one +2.6 black-σ kid would be needed to beat out both the assumed mean/σ 2 white kids.

    Replies: @bigdicknick, @International Jew

    Heh, you’re right. I overlooked the fact that we don’t care which two black kids are out at 2.6 sd. Thus I needed to multiply my 0.00466^2 by the number of ways you can choose two kids out of a set of 150, which is 150×149/2. And that gives us a probability of about 25%.

    Thanks. I had a bad feeling about my result too but I had to go back to sleep.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @International Jew

    Right. Any 2 vs. the chance of 2 specific kids picked without foreknowledge. You know this stuff better than I do, but that dice example is what convinced me for sure something was wrong.

    You're welcome. Now I don't have to bug the statistician.

  121. @Jack D
    @AnotherDad

    I agree with you that blacks are relatively OK before puberty (that's why I specified high school in my comment though I'd include middle school too).

    But as for the idea that no one really needs to be taking calculus in 6th grade, that's wrong. Every kid needs to be educated at their own level or they'll either be lost or else they'll be bored. If you are up to doing calculus in 6th grade then you should be doing calculus. And math is a young man's game as much as football is. If you waste several of your prime math years spinning your wheels you are never getting those years back.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Art Deco, @Paperback Writer

    If you’re doing Advanced Math (whether Calculus should be segregated into Advanced is a whole different question) in 6th Grade the school curriculum is irrelevant to you.

    I learned from my dad’s textbooks starting in 2nd because it seemed natural to start on cursive math at the same time I was learning cursive writing.

    Kids who are into that math then will find a way to learn it. Most have more pressing concerns at that age. They’ll have time for real analysis and whatever later.

    Your continued AP/IB idolatry is quaint, but it’s been the steady emptying out of those curricula that has left them vulnerable to the wokel takeover.

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Desiderius

    So I should pay tens of thousands of $ each year in school taxes and/or private school tuition and STILL my kid is supposed to teach himself math? What am I paying all that money for then? My daughter was gifted in math and she got special attention all through her school years - at first she took her math classes with older kids (when she was still in elementary school they bussed her) and when that ceilinged out she had her own tutor. She could have taught herself math but why should she have to?

    I realized AP/IB is a joke in many schools - they teach "AP" courses to blacks and the blacks get As in class but 1s and 2s when they take the actual AP test. Actually the way the whole valedictorian controversy got started is that they changed the method of calculating GPA from unweighted to weighted (an A in an AP course is a 5 instead of a 4 and the black girl had more AP courses) but they didn't tell anyone until after the white loser (in both senses of the word) inquired.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Joe Stalin

    , @Anonymous
    @Desiderius

    There are a lot of AP idolators about. I have always been suspicious of it. Probably easier to compare AP physics or biology from one school to another, but AP history? AP music? It is routine to meet not very intellectual but level-headed/diligent kids who took and passed several AP courses in a year, but the admissions benefit depends on the exam score so what’s the point of herding kids into these gussied-up versions of the regular course? Whatever a given h.s. might wring out of the programs, their primary effect is credentialism and application-polishing.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @vhrm, @Paperback Writer

  122. anonymous[310] • Disclaimer says:

    But it’s all about FEELINGS.

  123. So I guess they weren’t supposed to multiply the GPA by the reparations factor for awarding these honors.
    What an outrage, where’s the equity in that?

  124. @Desiderius
    @res

    You don’t live in Mississippi in the first place if you don’t get along reasonably well with blacks. Doesn’t necessarily mean going to school with them, but obviously for some it does or The Blind Side wouldn’t have been such a hit.

    Yes, that even includes some oligarchs and aristocrats. Always has.

    Replies: @Stan d Mute, @Jack D

    You don’t live in Mississippi in the first place if you don’t get along reasonably well with blacks.

    There is a definite difference between northern and southern negroes. Having been raised among the northern variety in Detriot, it was an enormous cultural shock when I began doing business and traveling extensively in the south. I have also seen a vast difference between American and Canadian negroes with the Canucks being far more housebroken. Shouldn’t our northern negroes more resemble the Canadian variety? Why are they worse than their southern cousins?

    • Replies: @Ralph L
    @Stan d Mute

    Why are they worse than their southern cousins?

    Even during Jim Crow and segregation, Southern blacks had a lot more everyday interaction with whites than the ones stuck in northern big city public housing, where vibrancy gets suppressed in the long winter.

  125. @Desiderius
    @Jonathan Mason

    The situation in the 1960s in the Deep South was quite different from the propaganda you’ve lapped up.

    Replies: @Jonathan Mason

    Well, that was the perception of the time.

    Of course the perception of the state of the Deep South in the 1960s was probably based more on how it actually was in the 1930s when the people who were adults in the 1960s had themselves been school children.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @Jonathan Mason

    Jonathan, your lack of perception of the Deep South is a problem, especially since you tell us you live in the most "Southern" area of Florida, Jacksonville. Did you ever think that if you talked to real Southerners more, maybe some old folks at home (it doesn't have to be on the Suwannee River), you may realize how ridiculous it is for you to judge these people still based on what you get from TV and the Lyin' Press?

    You agree with me and probably lots of people of different races who won't admit it, that separate schools is not a bad idea. See, Jonathan, that was the case before the Feral Gov't stepped in from the late 1950s on. Can you put yourself in mid-20th-century Southerner's shoes? Maybe you could realize that they knew more about race relations than you do to this day.

    You're like a caricature of the "ugly yankee", I'll call them, who come down South from Mass. or New York with disdain for all the actual Southern inhabitants. Yet somehow, it was worth it for them to move out of Mass or New York, and for you, England.

    One more idea, Jonathan: turn off your damn TV.

    Replies: @Alden, @Jonathan Mason

  126. It’s a high school. If you think the teachers don’t have their thumbs on the scale for the black kids, then you’re crazy.

    Do they provide the SAT scores for the four students in question? That would be instructive.

  127. @Desiderius
    @res

    You don’t live in Mississippi in the first place if you don’t get along reasonably well with blacks. Doesn’t necessarily mean going to school with them, but obviously for some it does or The Blind Side wouldn’t have been such a hit.

    Yes, that even includes some oligarchs and aristocrats. Always has.

    Replies: @Stan d Mute, @Jack D

    The Blind Side was a hit because it played into white liberal fantasy wish fulfillment – blacks are wonderful talented non-violent people who just need a little help from whites and then their talents will blossom. This has nothing to do with life in actual Mississippi. The real Oher had a 0.76 point GPA – it wouldn’t surprise me if he was mentally retarded. His father was murdered in prison and his mother was a crack addict. If some goodwhite family had taken Oher in and he had raped their daughter, would they have made a Hollywood movie about it?

  128. @Buzz Mohawk
    @International Jew

    Math is racist. Your calculations are bad international juju.

    The wisest thing the true winners could have done is keep their mouths shut and not ask for anything. Nothing good will come of this. Now that they are valedictorians and salad croutonatorians, are they all going to Harvard? How important is the title anyway? They should lose the honor again for being stupid enough to demand it against Blacks! in 2021.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @International Jew, @Brahmax

    Yeah, the math is garbage.
    1. There’s no reason to believe that the data are drawn from the same distribution as the US population
    2. Even if the distributions are the right ones, you can’t just use lazy math like this to calculate the probability needed. You’ll need to use either simulations or “order statistics”.

  129. @Desiderius
    @International Jew

    Not just the South, but yes the South is too.

    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/221319.Lanterns_on_the_Levee

    Replies: @AnotherDad

    Thanks Desiderius. Being a midwesterner by ancestry and upbringing, that looks interesting to me. I’ll give it a read.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @AnotherDad

    Raised Midwestern myself then schooled and lived in the South during prime years (with interludes abroad) before returning. Hard to countenance broad brush takes with that background.

  130. @Desiderius
    @Jack D

    If you’re doing Advanced Math (whether Calculus should be segregated into Advanced is a whole different question) in 6th Grade the school curriculum is irrelevant to you.

    I learned from my dad’s textbooks starting in 2nd because it seemed natural to start on cursive math at the same time I was learning cursive writing.

    Kids who are into that math then will find a way to learn it. Most have more pressing concerns at that age. They’ll have time for real analysis and whatever later.

    Your continued AP/IB idolatry is quaint, but it’s been the steady emptying out of those curricula that has left them vulnerable to the wokel takeover.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Anonymous

    So I should pay tens of thousands of $ each year in school taxes and/or private school tuition and STILL my kid is supposed to teach himself math? What am I paying all that money for then? My daughter was gifted in math and she got special attention all through her school years – at first she took her math classes with older kids (when she was still in elementary school they bussed her) and when that ceilinged out she had her own tutor. She could have taught herself math but why should she have to?

    I realized AP/IB is a joke in many schools – they teach “AP” courses to blacks and the blacks get As in class but 1s and 2s when they take the actual AP test. Actually the way the whole valedictorian controversy got started is that they changed the method of calculating GPA from unweighted to weighted (an A in an AP course is a 5 instead of a 4 and the black girl had more AP courses) but they didn’t tell anyone until after the white loser (in both senses of the word) inquired.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @Jack D

    More jokes would improve it.

    , @Joe Stalin
    @Jack D


    What am I paying all that money for then?
     
    In Illinois, that's actually an easy question to answer. You're paying out all that money to pay for teacher's pensions.

    Illinois’ regressive pension funding scheme: wealthiest school districts benefit most

    https://www.google.com/url?esrc=s&q=&rct=j&sa=U&url=https://wirepoints.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Illinois%25E2%2580%2599-regressive-pension-funding-scheme-wealthiest-school-districts-benefit-most-3.8.18.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjn6MD335LxAhUUHM0KHXs8CSQQFjAKegQICRAB&usg=AOvVaw0pNIlxL1shUtDZ-9n_fBMl

     

  131. @AnotherDad
    @Desiderius

    Thanks Desiderius. Being a midwesterner by ancestry and upbringing, that looks interesting to me. I'll give it a read.

    Replies: @Desiderius

    Raised Midwestern myself then schooled and lived in the South during prime years (with interludes abroad) before returning. Hard to countenance broad brush takes with that background.

  132. @Jack D
    @Desiderius

    So I should pay tens of thousands of $ each year in school taxes and/or private school tuition and STILL my kid is supposed to teach himself math? What am I paying all that money for then? My daughter was gifted in math and she got special attention all through her school years - at first she took her math classes with older kids (when she was still in elementary school they bussed her) and when that ceilinged out she had her own tutor. She could have taught herself math but why should she have to?

    I realized AP/IB is a joke in many schools - they teach "AP" courses to blacks and the blacks get As in class but 1s and 2s when they take the actual AP test. Actually the way the whole valedictorian controversy got started is that they changed the method of calculating GPA from unweighted to weighted (an A in an AP course is a 5 instead of a 4 and the black girl had more AP courses) but they didn't tell anyone until after the white loser (in both senses of the word) inquired.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Joe Stalin

    More jokes would improve it.

  133. “Equity Math”

    Now in Mississippi. Soon to be in your town.

    2+2 = 4 is just Systemic Racism.

  134. @Jack D
    @International Jew

    What white person allows their kid to attend a high school that is 80% black? I'd sell my blood plasma before I'd send my kids to an 80% black high school.

    Replies: @Redneck farmer, @Huisache, @Desiderius, @AnotherDad, @International Jew, @Pseudonym

    Believe it or not, my well-to-do suburban Boston high school imported students from Roxbury. I remember them hassling me and trying to shake me down for money freshman year. It was done under a program called METCO to which my town and most other Boston suburbs still subscribe.

    • Replies: @Bostonvegas
    @Pseudonym

    Remember it well ...we lost our star freshman qb from Mattapan to Concord Carlisle

    , @JohnnyWalker123
    @Pseudonym

    How much street clout do the rough working-class Irish still have in Boston?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    , @Boy the way Glenn Miller played
    @Pseudonym

    Around what year?

  135. Anonymous[296] • Disclaimer says:
    @Desiderius
    @Jack D

    If you’re doing Advanced Math (whether Calculus should be segregated into Advanced is a whole different question) in 6th Grade the school curriculum is irrelevant to you.

    I learned from my dad’s textbooks starting in 2nd because it seemed natural to start on cursive math at the same time I was learning cursive writing.

    Kids who are into that math then will find a way to learn it. Most have more pressing concerns at that age. They’ll have time for real analysis and whatever later.

    Your continued AP/IB idolatry is quaint, but it’s been the steady emptying out of those curricula that has left them vulnerable to the wokel takeover.

    Replies: @Jack D, @Anonymous

    There are a lot of AP idolators about. I have always been suspicious of it. Probably easier to compare AP physics or biology from one school to another, but AP history? AP music? It is routine to meet not very intellectual but level-headed/diligent kids who took and passed several AP courses in a year, but the admissions benefit depends on the exam score so what’s the point of herding kids into these gussied-up versions of the regular course? Whatever a given h.s. might wring out of the programs, their primary effect is credentialism and application-polishing.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @Anonymous

    It was, but it’s turned into something more nefarious than that this century. I’d still probably want my kids in something similar? It would be close and they wouldn’t be getting anything near what I got either in terms of quality or simple authenticity.

    Hoping for something new by the time they get there.

    , @vhrm
    @Anonymous


    There are a lot of AP idolators about. I have always been suspicious of it. Probably easier to compare AP physics or biology from one school to another, but AP history? AP music?
     
    The whole point is that the AP courses are comparable across schools because they have a minimum curriculum that they have to cover for each course and this is at least somewhat verified. Otherwise there's nothing to prevent a HS from having a "calculus" class that's really just Algebra 2

    It is routine to meet not very intellectual but level-headed/diligent kids who took and passed several AP courses in a year, but the admissions benefit depends on the exam score so what’s the point of herding kids into these gussied-up versions of the regular course? Whatever a given h.s. might wring out of the programs, their primary effect is credentialism and application-polishing.
     
    The main point is to use a test that's comparable across the country. Given the incentives for teachers, principals and school districts to do grade inflation, standardized testing, is the only way to compare students between classes (and schools, school districts and states).

    Replies: @Desiderius

    , @Paperback Writer
    @Anonymous

    Wait, now that two black girls took AP they're bad?

    The black girls be applauded for taking AP classes. Not idolized. But rewarded - yeah.

  136. More information is needed.

    Ikeria Washington and Layla Temple had been named 2021 valedictorian and salutatorian for West Point High School.

    The president of the local N.A.A.C.P. in West Point, Miss., Anner Cunningham, smiled as the two young women, both standout students, were photographed. “It was a beautiful and proud moment to witness two young, Black ladies standing side by side given such honors,” Ms. Cunningham said.

    In this corner we have beautiful and proud BLACK ladies Ikeria Macywanara Washington and Layla Derikia Temple …

    But almost immediately parents of other students near the top of the rankings raised questions about who should have been honored. Within days, and breaking with longstanding tradition, West Point High School decided to name two valedictorians and two salutatorians — with two white students, Emma Berry and Dominic Borgioli, joining the Black students who had already been named.

    Emma and Dominic are obviously wrong, wrong wrong. But what was their argument? From other sources (not NYT) it can be learned that historically, a student’s GPA calculated as the average of semester grades has been used to determine class rank, but this year, a newly hired guidance and reconciliation counselor used a new approach known as QPA – Quality Point Average. I am guessing that a Black who scores an A get more quality points (because she overcame systemic racism) than a white who makes an A (because white privilege).

    Quality Point Average

    Know it, embrace it, love it.

  137. This stuff can be tricky in the South.

    Back when I was a young reporter just starting out in a small Southern farming town, I covered the local high school graduation.

    For as long as anybody could remember — heck, probably since integration — the school had named two valedictorians: A Valedictorian (who was always white), and a Minority Valedictorian (who was always black). Those were the official titles.

    The year I happened to cover the graduation, the inevitable finally happened: the “minority” with the highest GPA wasn’t black — it was a Hispanic girl. So the school named THREE valedictorians: A Valedictorian, a Minority Valedictorian, and a Black Valedictorian, a title which had been created just for the occasion. All three spoke at graduation.

    That was decades ago, but I’ve noticed that in the community I live in now — in rural Florida — none of the high schools have the traditional valedictorian and salutatorian speeches at graduations. Instead, the student speakers get vague descriptions like “inspirational speaker” and “vision speaker,” and they are always racially balanced. I assume it’s some kind of affirmative action thing, where they created an achievement that only blacks can win so that blacks are always represented, but then gave everything intentionally vague names so it wouldn’t be immediately obvious what was going on.

    The local blacks don’t seem to have any problems with this arrangement, as long as they get their awards. It’s plaques for blacks, as Tom Wolfe put it. I’ve wondered sometimes if big awards show like the Oscars will eventually try something like this, or if they’d be worried about it seeming too desperate.

    (As an aside: the old, now nearly extinct practice in the South of holding “segregated” proms — much criticized by non-Southerners — was originally driven as much by local blacks as by local whites. Back in the day, black parents got quite worked up over the thought of their kids “mixing” with whites in a romantic setting; segregated proms were originally a mutual compromise from the early days of integration. It was only later that blacks changed their minds about the practice.)

    • Thanks: vhrm
    • Replies: @Charlotte
    @Mr. Blank


    the old, now nearly extinct practice in the South of holding “segregated” proms — much criticized by non-Southerners — was originally driven as much by local blacks as by local whites. Back in the day, black parents got quite worked up over the thought of their kids “mixing” with whites in a romantic setting
     
    Were they opposed because they didn’t like the idea of their child with a white person, or because they worried the situation would cause trouble with the local whites? Or was it both?

    Replies: @Neil Templeton

    , @Muggles
    @Mr. Blank

    Almost all of the high schooler honors students in my metropolitan suburb in Texas are Asians. A few whites, not many.

    Otherwise no POC.

    Of course the relatively good schools are the reason Asians and other skilled immigrants move out here. White kids don't spend enough time in the library.

    Oh, and all local Spelling Bee champs are Asians, mainly South Asians.

    Replies: @Desiderius

  138. Shooting last night in an entertainment area in downtown Austin. Thirteen people shot, no deaths. No one seemed to get a decent look at the shooter.
    The day before a middle-aged white man shot a one-year-old (!) to death in a Jacksonville supermarket, then fatally shot the child’s grandmother, and finally shot himself. No known connection between him and the victims.

    • Replies: @Pixo
    @prosa123

    Shocker: a local news article provided a racial description. 13 wounded no deaths, so obv.

    https://www.kxan.com/news/crime/austin-mass-shooting-12-hospitalized-after-attack-downtown/

  139. Not “off” but “pushing” the topic …

    Bottom line: Diversity is not a strength, but a source of endless contention and conflict.

    The real mistake here was made in the 17th century. But …

    Interesting question of what America would look like–and how much more pleasant things might be–if we’d had a constitutional, or even just coherent–ex. public vs. private or mandated vs. personal choice–ruling in Brown. (Rather than the bizarre psycho-sociological, open-ended nonsense the court coughed up.)

    • Replies: @vhrm
    @AnotherDad

    This story doesn't intrinsically have much to do with diversity, unless you mean diversity of algorithms to calculate GPA.

    Instead, the values and actions of all the parents involved seem to be very much the same: fighting for their kid to be recognized because being first (and second) in school ranking is important to them.

    The bottom line for me is how unhelpful it is when the media and other agitators try to try to make everything about race.

    Replies: @AnotherDad

  140. At least 23 people were injured in mass shootings in Chicago, Illinois, and Austin, Texas, on Saturday morning, according to reports. Yep. Yep.

    • Replies: @JimDandy
    @JimDandy

    Hmm... at least 23 injured. No deaths. What would a race-realist profiler say?

    Replies: @Wielgus

  141. Yes this “calculated GPAs wrong” is an important & adds more proof that diversity is a huge lie as well as a method to get rid of us European aka White Peoples. In the meantime, the INVASION continues as the 3rd world is literally pouring into our once Nation.

  142. @International Jew
    According to greatschools.org, this high school graduates about 185 kids each year, of whom about 150 are black and 35 are white. How plausible is it that the smartest kid in a given year will be black?

    To figure that out, let's go with the standard setup of two normal distributions and a 1 sd difference between the black mean and the white mean. The smartest kid among 35 whites is at the 97th percentile (1 - 1/35)×100%, which is 1.8 sd above the white mean. A black kid that smart would be 2.8 sd above the black mean, thus (again looking this up in the table, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_normal_table) at the 99.7th percentile for blacks, in other words one in 333 kids, so with 150 black kids per graduating class, you'd see that outcome about one year out of every two.

    So a black valedictorian isn't exactly what you'd bet on, but it's not a totally implausible outcome either.

    Replies: @Batman, @Pat Hannagan, @International Jew, @Jack D, @Abolish_public_education, @Some Guy, @Tom F., @Squid, @res, @DextersLabRat, @Pixo, @Paperback Writer

    The parents of white children who send them to an 85% black public school likely have a mean IQ of 88 or so. Their children will mean regress to about 94, so that’s what I would use as the white mean.

  143. @Jack D
    @Desiderius

    So I should pay tens of thousands of $ each year in school taxes and/or private school tuition and STILL my kid is supposed to teach himself math? What am I paying all that money for then? My daughter was gifted in math and she got special attention all through her school years - at first she took her math classes with older kids (when she was still in elementary school they bussed her) and when that ceilinged out she had her own tutor. She could have taught herself math but why should she have to?

    I realized AP/IB is a joke in many schools - they teach "AP" courses to blacks and the blacks get As in class but 1s and 2s when they take the actual AP test. Actually the way the whole valedictorian controversy got started is that they changed the method of calculating GPA from unweighted to weighted (an A in an AP course is a 5 instead of a 4 and the black girl had more AP courses) but they didn't tell anyone until after the white loser (in both senses of the word) inquired.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Joe Stalin

    What am I paying all that money for then?

    In Illinois, that’s actually an easy question to answer. You’re paying out all that money to pay for teacher’s pensions.

    Illinois’ regressive pension funding scheme: wealthiest school districts benefit most

    https://www.google.com/url?esrc=s&q=&rct=j&sa=U&url=https://wirepoints.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Illinois%25E2%2580%2599-regressive-pension-funding-scheme-wealthiest-school-districts-benefit-most-3.8.18.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwjn6MD335LxAhUUHM0KHXs8CSQQFjAKegQICRAB&usg=AOvVaw0pNIlxL1shUtDZ-9n_fBMl

  144. @prosa123
    Shooting last night in an entertainment area in downtown Austin. Thirteen people shot, no deaths. No one seemed to get a decent look at the shooter.
    The day before a middle-aged white man shot a one-year-old (!) to death in a Jacksonville supermarket, then fatally shot the child's grandmother, and finally shot himself. No known connection between him and the victims.

    Replies: @Pixo

    Shocker: a local news article provided a racial description. 13 wounded no deaths, so obv.

    https://www.kxan.com/news/crime/austin-mass-shooting-12-hospitalized-after-attack-downtown/

  145. @res
    @International Jew

    Thanks for your analysis. I tend to agree with "on the other hand." What would make this even more interesting is to see the actual numbers for say the top 10 using both methods of calculation.

    Could someone elaborate on how the computations differed? I'm paywalled out of the NYT article, but the top comments seem to indicate that the difference was accounting for AP classes (by boosting their GPA) and that the black students were the ones who took more AP classes. If that is the case, I am kind of with the black students on this one. Sandbagging your GPA by taking easy classes is lame. In that case, the error would be with the handbook, and should just be fixed. With giving two sets of awards seeming reasonable given "those are the rules."

    This local article has some more details, but not enough to really understand (normally that would seem like a clue to me).
    https://mississippitoday.org/2021/06/02/west-point-valedictorian-dispute-sparks-allegations-of-racism/


    McDonald told Mississippi Today the high school guidance counselor was new to the school and was given incorrect information about how to determine the designations. The counselor selected the two students based on quality point average (QPA), which is measured on a 4.0 scale, instead of a strict numerical average of the students’ semester grades over their high school career, which the district defines as its grade point average (GPA), he said.

    McDonald said he looked at how valedictorian and salutatorian had been determined in past years and saw it was based on a 0-100 scale, or what the school refers to as GPA. The initial calculation was not conducted the proper way, he said.

    But the handbook a few pages later says GPA “is calculated by averaging the grade point weights assigned to semester averages,” which are 0.0 through 4.0. It goes on to say “Some classes may be weighted double see guidance counselors for this information..” (sic)

    A few pages earlier, under “Class Rank,” the handbook simply says “A student’s rank in his/her graduating class will be calculated by averaging his/her semester averages.”

    “(The parents’) argument was that based on our handbook, we should’ve been using semester averages,” he said. “And when you generate the report from the system, it clearly shows the two white students would’ve been first and second based on that number.”
     
    This article cites the NYT
    https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/558068-white-parents-claim-calculation-error-after-two-black-students-get-high

    According to the Times, the initial grade calculation was based on quality point average, which gives extra weight to grades from advanced placement courses. The second calculation was based on unweighted grade point average.
     

    Replies: @vhrm, @Desiderius, @Gamecock

    The times article only says

    At issue was just how to calculate who the top two students were. Ikeria and Layla won based on a calculation of quality point average or Q.P.A., a system of calculating grades that gave extra weight to advanced placement and dual credit courses. But, it turned out, Dominic and Emma were the top two finishers based on unweighted grade point average.

    From the moment i saw the lede on this i suspected it would be a weighted GPA vs non-weighted GPA issue, but i wrongly ( racistly?) assumed that it was the white kids who had the higher weighted GPA.

    In a lot of US high schools for GPA purposes you get some sort of bonus for taking honors or AP classes by multiplying those scores by 1.1 for honors and 1.2 for AP ( or 1.05 and 1.1 ).
    So an A for an AP class might be 4.8 point a 95 would count as 114 etc. so i assumed that’s what it was.

    But reading that Mississippi Today piece that you linked it seems more complicated. Of course, i also shake my head at the NYT reporters for not being able to spell out what ACTUALLY happened but at the same time being sure it’s all about 150 years of racism.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @vhrm

    What akshually happened isn't the product they're selling.

    Yet.

  146. @Jonathan Mason
    @Desiderius

    Well, that was the perception of the time.

    Of course the perception of the state of the Deep South in the 1960s was probably based more on how it actually was in the 1930s when the people who were adults in the 1960s had themselves been school children.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    Jonathan, your lack of perception of the Deep South is a problem, especially since you tell us you live in the most “Southern” area of Florida, Jacksonville. Did you ever think that if you talked to real Southerners more, maybe some old folks at home (it doesn’t have to be on the Suwannee River), you may realize how ridiculous it is for you to judge these people still based on what you get from TV and the Lyin’ Press?

    You agree with me and probably lots of people of different races who won’t admit it, that separate schools is not a bad idea. See, Jonathan, that was the case before the Feral Gov’t stepped in from the late 1950s on. Can you put yourself in mid-20th-century Southerner’s shoes? Maybe you could realize that they knew more about race relations than you do to this day.

    You’re like a caricature of the “ugly yankee”, I’ll call them, who come down South from Mass. or New York with disdain for all the actual Southern inhabitants. Yet somehow, it was worth it for them to move out of Mass or New York, and for you, England.

    One more idea, Jonathan: turn off your damn TV.

    • Agree: Desiderius
    • Replies: @Alden
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Furreners are all like Jonathan, including my English relatives. One mentioned the math homework my son was doing as more advanced than the same grade level in the English system.

    But then he just had to say that “ of course they don’t teach it to the black kids do they?”

    So I explained all schools use the same books from the same publishers. Same teacher education training, and same State department of education curriculum mandates for every school private and public in the state. He was astonished.

    The English and Germans are the worst. They still think barefoot black kids are picking cotton in Chicago Detroit and NYC January blizzards.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    , @Jonathan Mason
    @Achmed E. Newman

    I would love to oblige but I haven't watched any TV at all for maybe 25 years, and even before that didn't watch it very much, except for The Young and the Restless when I lived in Bermuda, because the whole island watched it.

    Okay I lie. I have watched a few golf tournaments and soccer games during the last 25 years, seen some CNN News while in airport waiting areas, and occasionally flipped through some channels in hotel rooms. Also some Peppa Pig.

  147. @res
    @International Jew

    Thanks for your analysis. I tend to agree with "on the other hand." What would make this even more interesting is to see the actual numbers for say the top 10 using both methods of calculation.

    Could someone elaborate on how the computations differed? I'm paywalled out of the NYT article, but the top comments seem to indicate that the difference was accounting for AP classes (by boosting their GPA) and that the black students were the ones who took more AP classes. If that is the case, I am kind of with the black students on this one. Sandbagging your GPA by taking easy classes is lame. In that case, the error would be with the handbook, and should just be fixed. With giving two sets of awards seeming reasonable given "those are the rules."

    This local article has some more details, but not enough to really understand (normally that would seem like a clue to me).
    https://mississippitoday.org/2021/06/02/west-point-valedictorian-dispute-sparks-allegations-of-racism/


    McDonald told Mississippi Today the high school guidance counselor was new to the school and was given incorrect information about how to determine the designations. The counselor selected the two students based on quality point average (QPA), which is measured on a 4.0 scale, instead of a strict numerical average of the students’ semester grades over their high school career, which the district defines as its grade point average (GPA), he said.

    McDonald said he looked at how valedictorian and salutatorian had been determined in past years and saw it was based on a 0-100 scale, or what the school refers to as GPA. The initial calculation was not conducted the proper way, he said.

    But the handbook a few pages later says GPA “is calculated by averaging the grade point weights assigned to semester averages,” which are 0.0 through 4.0. It goes on to say “Some classes may be weighted double see guidance counselors for this information..” (sic)

    A few pages earlier, under “Class Rank,” the handbook simply says “A student’s rank in his/her graduating class will be calculated by averaging his/her semester averages.”

    “(The parents’) argument was that based on our handbook, we should’ve been using semester averages,” he said. “And when you generate the report from the system, it clearly shows the two white students would’ve been first and second based on that number.”
     
    This article cites the NYT
    https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/558068-white-parents-claim-calculation-error-after-two-black-students-get-high

    According to the Times, the initial grade calculation was based on quality point average, which gives extra weight to grades from advanced placement courses. The second calculation was based on unweighted grade point average.
     

    Replies: @vhrm, @Desiderius, @Gamecock

    That’s the +2 SD take. Taking only weighted classes is the way the grinders game the system. The best class in my high school was an elective called Humanities taught by an autodidact drama teacher/MLB umpire local celeb, but it wasn’t weighted. Savvy kids took it, grinders didn’t. Likewise Home Ec I think and a couple others.

  148. @International Jew
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Heh, you're right. I overlooked the fact that we don't care which two black kids are out at 2.6 sd. Thus I needed to multiply my 0.00466^2 by the number of ways you can choose two kids out of a set of 150, which is 150×149/2. And that gives us a probability of about 25%.

    Thanks. I had a bad feeling about my result too but I had to go back to sleep.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    Right. Any 2 vs. the chance of 2 specific kids picked without foreknowledge. You know this stuff better than I do, but that dice example is what convinced me for sure something was wrong.

    You’re welcome. Now I don’t have to bug the statistician.

  149. @Jonathan Mason
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Funny you should almost mention George Mason. A pretty distant cousin of mine, but one of the authors of the Bill of Rights.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    Your cousin could have taught you to respect that Bill of Rights too. Woulda’, coulda’, shoulda’ …

    .

    “… George … Mason…” I do get it, though.

  150. @vhrm
    @res

    The times article only says


    At issue was just how to calculate who the top two students were. Ikeria and Layla won based on a calculation of quality point average or Q.P.A., a system of calculating grades that gave extra weight to advanced placement and dual credit courses. But, it turned out, Dominic and Emma were the top two finishers based on unweighted grade point average.

     

    From the moment i saw the lede on this i suspected it would be a weighted GPA vs non-weighted GPA issue, but i wrongly ( racistly?) assumed that it was the white kids who had the higher weighted GPA.

    In a lot of US high schools for GPA purposes you get some sort of bonus for taking honors or AP classes by multiplying those scores by 1.1 for honors and 1.2 for AP ( or 1.05 and 1.1 ).
    So an A for an AP class might be 4.8 point a 95 would count as 114 etc. so i assumed that's what it was.

    But reading that Mississippi Today piece that you linked it seems more complicated. Of course, i also shake my head at the NYT reporters for not being able to spell out what ACTUALLY happened but at the same time being sure it's all about 150 years of racism.

    Replies: @Desiderius

    What akshually happened isn’t the product they’re selling.

    Yet.

  151. Light bulbs slowly turning on.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @Desiderius

    (((Jonathan Kay))) feels no gratitude or loyalty to his country. Quelle surprise.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Jack D

  152. @AnotherDad
    Not "off" but "pushing" the topic ...

    Bottom line: Diversity is not a strength, but a source of endless contention and conflict.

    The real mistake here was made in the 17th century. But ...

    Interesting question of what America would look like--and how much more pleasant things might be--if we'd had a constitutional, or even just coherent--ex. public vs. private or mandated vs. personal choice--ruling in Brown. (Rather than the bizarre psycho-sociological, open-ended nonsense the court coughed up.)

    Replies: @vhrm

    This story doesn’t intrinsically have much to do with diversity, unless you mean diversity of algorithms to calculate GPA.

    Instead, the values and actions of all the parents involved seem to be very much the same: fighting for their kid to be recognized because being first (and second) in school ranking is important to them.

    The bottom line for me is how unhelpful it is when the media and other agitators try to try to make everything about race.

    • Replies: @AnotherDad
    @vhrm


    This story doesn’t intrinsically have much to do with diversity, unless you mean diversity of algorithms to calculate GPA.
     
    Disagree.

    The cause maybe just some confusion on algorithms and choosing valedictorian.

    But the story is entirely that this entirely routine and trivial event stirred up a bunch of racial contention in the school/community. The story is entirely about the reality that diversity creates contention.

    If this was four white kids or four black kids no one would ever have heard about it except for them, their families a few friends. There would be no community contention and division, the NYT would not be reporting, Steve would not be blogging nor you and i commenting.
  153. https://www.theguardian.com/education/2003/jul/21/highereducation.uk

    Apposite penalty: being locked in a closet with Louis Hornstine, Esq and his daughter. Who in this mini-drama merits this extreme punishment?

  154. @Jack D
    @AnotherDad

    I agree with you that blacks are relatively OK before puberty (that's why I specified high school in my comment though I'd include middle school too).

    But as for the idea that no one really needs to be taking calculus in 6th grade, that's wrong. Every kid needs to be educated at their own level or they'll either be lost or else they'll be bored. If you are up to doing calculus in 6th grade then you should be doing calculus. And math is a young man's game as much as football is. If you waste several of your prime math years spinning your wheels you are never getting those years back.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Art Deco, @Paperback Writer

    If you are up to doing calculus in 6th grade then you should be doing calculus.

    Doogie Howser, MD was fictional Jack.

    • Replies: @Calvin Hobbes
    @Art Deco

    2009 USA Math Olympiad Winners

    https://www.maa.org/sites/default/files/pdf/pubs/augsept09pgs16-17.pdf

    David Yang was one of the top 12 American pre-college math students at the age of 12. Becoming a USAMO winner requires a level of math ability far beyond what it takes to learn calculus.

    He’s the little guy in the picture.

  155. I’m interested in what were the two methods. (?)

  156. @JimDandy
    At least 23 people were injured in mass shootings in Chicago, Illinois, and Austin, Texas, on Saturday morning, according to reports. Yep. Yep.

    Replies: @JimDandy

    Hmm… at least 23 injured. No deaths. What would a race-realist profiler say?

    • Replies: @Wielgus
    @JimDandy

    More shooting lessons?

  157. @Art Deco
    @Jack D

    If you are up to doing calculus in 6th grade then you should be doing calculus.

    Doogie Howser, MD was fictional Jack.

    Replies: @Calvin Hobbes

    2009 USA Math Olympiad Winners

    https://www.maa.org/sites/default/files/pdf/pubs/augsept09pgs16-17.pdf

    David Yang was one of the top 12 American pre-college math students at the age of 12. Becoming a USAMO winner requires a level of math ability far beyond what it takes to learn calculus.

    He’s the little guy in the picture.

  158. @Desiderius
    @Jack D

    High school is one thing, but my wife and I had to make that decision for one of our three-year-old twins this past year and he made unexpectedly great progress.

    Maybe hanging around blacks is the long sought cure for autism.

    Replies: @AnotherDad, @Hangnail Hans, @Alden

    So glad things are going well. But there are major differences between black 3 year olds black 8 year olds and even more black 13 year olds. Elementary school teachers tell me it’s about at age 8 or 9 blacks start to behave like well, blacks and it just get worse.

    • Replies: @Anonymouse
    @Alden

    My mother was an elementary school teacher in the NYC public school system for 39 years. Latterly she taught 2nd grade - this was in Brownsville, Brooklyn a predominantly black and Puerto Rican neighborhood. She told me the black students in the earliest grades were just as motivated as the few white students she had but that at a certain age they "turned off" (her words) and became disinterested in being educated.

  159. Could be worse.

  160. @Desiderius
    https://twitter.com/NS_Elaphos/status/1403726723414364163?s=20

    Light bulbs slowly turning on.

    Replies: @J.Ross

    (((Jonathan Kay))) feels no gratitude or loyalty to his country. Quelle surprise.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @J.Ross

    Regular Jews trapped in the same situation we are where their erstwhile leaders have gone completely off the rails and so the followers get lost in all sorts of nonsense.

    Here’s a book about gentiles doing the same thing Kay is here:

    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/77959.Lost_in_the_Cosmos

    It’s a Western (likely human) thing. Jews have just come down with a bad case of it.

    Replies: @J.Ross

    , @Jack D
    @J.Ross

    Note that Kay positions himself in the middle, not with the crazy Left. But you and your fellow anti-Semites (and this has been true since the time of Dreyfus) want nothing to do with Jews - rather than try to lure him over closer to your position, you do your best to make him feel unwelcome in your ranks - you accuse him (without any evidence) of having no gratitude or loyalty to his country. Then you will denounce him even more if he moves closer to the people who embrace him rather than denounce him.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Desiderius, @J.Ross

  161. Well, ya work with what ya got.

    Blacks have to suffer from racist oppression, so…

  162. @Achmed E. Newman
    @Jonathan Mason

    Jonathan, your lack of perception of the Deep South is a problem, especially since you tell us you live in the most "Southern" area of Florida, Jacksonville. Did you ever think that if you talked to real Southerners more, maybe some old folks at home (it doesn't have to be on the Suwannee River), you may realize how ridiculous it is for you to judge these people still based on what you get from TV and the Lyin' Press?

    You agree with me and probably lots of people of different races who won't admit it, that separate schools is not a bad idea. See, Jonathan, that was the case before the Feral Gov't stepped in from the late 1950s on. Can you put yourself in mid-20th-century Southerner's shoes? Maybe you could realize that they knew more about race relations than you do to this day.

    You're like a caricature of the "ugly yankee", I'll call them, who come down South from Mass. or New York with disdain for all the actual Southern inhabitants. Yet somehow, it was worth it for them to move out of Mass or New York, and for you, England.

    One more idea, Jonathan: turn off your damn TV.

    Replies: @Alden, @Jonathan Mason

    Furreners are all like Jonathan, including my English relatives. One mentioned the math homework my son was doing as more advanced than the same grade level in the English system.

    But then he just had to say that “ of course they don’t teach it to the black kids do they?”

    So I explained all schools use the same books from the same publishers. Same teacher education training, and same State department of education curriculum mandates for every school private and public in the state. He was astonished.

    The English and Germans are the worst. They still think barefoot black kids are picking cotton in Chicago Detroit and NYC January blizzards.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Alden


    So I explained all schools use the same books from the same publishers. Same teacher education training, and same State department of education curriculum mandates for every school private and public in the state. He was astonished.
     
    So am I. This sounds more like France than anywhere in America.

    The Minister of National Education looks at his watch and knows which page of which text every nine-year-old in the land is reading.

    Or did. There is more variation in the system today, and even homeschooling is allowed, under the watchful œil of l'état.
  163. @Mike Tre
    At least no one has been shot.

    Replies: @usNthem, @The Plutonium Kid

    Yet…

  164. White student victims of the diversity machine should be encouraged to keep in mind that in 10 years after high school, no employer cares what pretty ribbons anyone won in HS, what matters is if you can do the job and that you have a good attitude. True, there will be useless diversity hires and managers to deal with, but even leftist-captured corporations must realize that they need a large number of people who are actually competent. Whites should aim to be part of that group.

  165. @Pseudonym
    @Jack D

    Believe it or not, my well-to-do suburban Boston high school imported students from Roxbury. I remember them hassling me and trying to shake me down for money freshman year. It was done under a program called METCO to which my town and most other Boston suburbs still subscribe.

    Replies: @Bostonvegas, @JohnnyWalker123, @Boy the way Glenn Miller played

    Remember it well …we lost our star freshman qb from Mattapan to Concord Carlisle

  166. @JimB
    @ScarletNumber

    Both white students had higher GPAs then the two black students. Therefore, they should have been the co-valedictorians.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer

    Right, but I thought the article stated that the blacks took the more difficult courses. It’s a dull article so I didn’t read it that carefully.

    • Replies: @JimB
    @Paperback Writer


    Right, but I thought the article stated that the blacks took the more difficult courses. It’s a dull article so I didn’t read it that carefully.
     
    Yes, but that means the black students had already benefited in the GPA computation since the more difficult courses would be weighted more heavily.
  167. @Paperback Writer
    The articles says or implies - I'm not gonna read it again - that the black students took the harder courses. Or was it the white students?

    I find NY Times articles hard to understand. I was not my HS valedictorian.

    Replies: @tyrone, @Gaspar DeLaFunk

    Article was short on fact long on CRT.

  168. @Stan d Mute
    @Desiderius


    You don’t live in Mississippi in the first place if you don’t get along reasonably well with blacks.
     
    There is a definite difference between northern and southern negroes. Having been raised among the northern variety in Detriot, it was an enormous cultural shock when I began doing business and traveling extensively in the south. I have also seen a vast difference between American and Canadian negroes with the Canucks being far more housebroken. Shouldn’t our northern negroes more resemble the Canadian variety? Why are they worse than their southern cousins?

    Replies: @Ralph L

    Why are they worse than their southern cousins?

    Even during Jim Crow and segregation, Southern blacks had a lot more everyday interaction with whites than the ones stuck in northern big city public housing, where vibrancy gets suppressed in the long winter.

  169. @International Jew
    According to greatschools.org, this high school graduates about 185 kids each year, of whom about 150 are black and 35 are white. How plausible is it that the smartest kid in a given year will be black?

    To figure that out, let's go with the standard setup of two normal distributions and a 1 sd difference between the black mean and the white mean. The smartest kid among 35 whites is at the 97th percentile (1 - 1/35)×100%, which is 1.8 sd above the white mean. A black kid that smart would be 2.8 sd above the black mean, thus (again looking this up in the table, https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standard_normal_table) at the 99.7th percentile for blacks, in other words one in 333 kids, so with 150 black kids per graduating class, you'd see that outcome about one year out of every two.

    So a black valedictorian isn't exactly what you'd bet on, but it's not a totally implausible outcome either.

    Replies: @Batman, @Pat Hannagan, @International Jew, @Jack D, @Abolish_public_education, @Some Guy, @Tom F., @Squid, @res, @DextersLabRat, @Pixo, @Paperback Writer

    Implausible but not impossible.

    The article clearly states that the black kids took more AP courses – which should have been weighted more heavily, and originally were.

    I have to give this one to the blacks, although the kerfuffle is absurd and the fact that the NAACP practically bust a gasket congratulating the girls is sad. Black academic success is so rare they have to make a big deal over it.

    But I think the white parents were wrong.

  170. @Redneck farmer
    @Jack D

    Poor ones.
    Oh, and ones that want to show they're not racist.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer

    No, I think the girl is rich, her name is associated with one of the wealthiest white families in the area.

  171. @Hangnail Hans
    @Desiderius

    Funny you should mention.

    https://www.latimes.com/science/story/2021-06-11/white-boys-who-grew-up-with-black-neighbors-are-more-likely-to-become-democrats-study-finds


    Who knows how legit the "study" is? What we know is how it will be used, and that no one will be permitted to question it.

    Replies: @Dr. DoomNGloom

    Who knows how legit the “study” is?

    Proxy for live in the city. Few Sociologists are strong on causation.

    • Agree: Hangnail Hans
  172. GPA printer go brrr.

    • LOL: Hangnail Hans
  173. @Calvin Hobbes
    If grades in AP classes are treated differently from grades in non-AP classes, then the score on the AP exam should be factored in. An A in an AP class should not count as better than an A in a non-AP class if the student did not take the AP exam or got a 1 on the AP exam.

    I would not be surprised if students in AP classes at West Point High seldom get around to taking the AP exams.

    Is there anything that prevents a school from just labeling certain courses as AP? Does anybody check whether an “AP” course covers what that AP course is supposed to cover?

    It would be particularly interesting to find out how academic stars Ikeria Washington and Layla Temple did on AP exams. Their SAT/ACT scores would also be interesting.

    Replies: @vhrm

    Is there anything that prevents a school from just labeling certain courses as AP? Does anybody check whether an “AP” course covers what that AP course is supposed to cover?

    Each school has to get each class audited by the College Board company before it can be labled an AP course. (https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/courses/ap-course-audit )

    That said i don’t think there are any standards in there for percentage of students that take the test or scores they must demonstrate or any analysis of grade vs test score.

    • Thanks: Calvin Hobbes
    • Replies: @Houston 1992
    @vhrm

    so if the AP classes are graded by an outside grader/bubble test etc then the use of the AP classes can allow schools to circumvent the SAT ban on college admissions? AP Math and AP English data alone would alone one to make major inferences

    Replies: @vhrm

  174. There’s only one method for calculating GPAs and I think we all know what it is.

  175. @Flemur
    Here are pics of the "counselors" - unlike he fakenews reports, they're divided into West Point North and West Point South, perhaps to protect the guilty:
    https://www.westpoint.k12.ms.us/counselorscorner

    Replies: @Calvin Hobbes, @Buffalo Joe

    Here are pics of the “counselors” – unlike he fakenews reports, they’re divided into West Point North and West Point South, perhaps to protect the guilty:
    https://www.westpoint.k12.ms.us/counselors corner

    There’s only one counselor listed as being for grade 12: Traqundus Boyd.

    The name Traqundus seems pretty weird, even for a black name, and it sounds more like a man’s name than a woman’s name.

  176. Another really horrible crime happened earlier this morning in Brooklyn. A woman threw her *four week* old baby out of her second story apartment building, then threw her two year old toddler out the window, and finally jumped out herself – stark naked. Although she was injured in the fall she remained conscious, and went over to the four week old infant and began beating its head into the sidewalk. Neighbors stopped her, but last I heard it’s not certain if the infant will survive. The two year old suffered less serious injuries. As the neighbors were restraining the woman she was screaming that she was tired of being alone.

    All this happened in Brownsville, a part of eastern Brooklyn that until around 1950 was the center of the borough’s Jewish community. It has not fared well since then, to put it very mildly.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @prosa123

    The important thing is that the lockdown prevented this woman and her children from contracting Covid-19.

  177. @War for Blair Mountain
    Off topic:

    Steve

    What did Fort Carson Battalion Commander Lieutenant Colonel Andrew Rhodes say to his White Troops?

    Lieutenant Colonel Andrew Rhodes is White by the way....

    Replies: @anon

    You need to learn how to copy – paste a link into the Comment box.

    Now.

    • Replies: @War for Blair Mountain
    @anon

    You want to be spoon fed....What Battalion Commander Lieutenant Colonel Andrew Rhodes said to his White Troops is all over the internet-with commentary. So why lock readers into a specific link?

    Replies: @anon

  178. @Anon
    Very weird.

    According to Great Schools, the high school is 81 percent black and 17 percent white. The "College Readiness Rating" (ACT scores plus maybe some other stuff, I think) for blacks is 3 out of 10, 10 out of 10 for whites. So there is a huge gap there, as might be expected.

    The black girls seem to be garden variety descendants of slaves, not imported magic negros.

    So it seems unlikely that they would beat out white students, given the law of large numbers and statistics.

    But then there is this:

    Officials blamed a mistake made by a [black?] school counselor [and Hidden Figures fan?] resulting largely from a confusion over which of two methods [specifically? There are two methods?] for calculating final grades should have been used.
     
    Two methods? Huh. In my day there was one method, and the kids who had a shot at the awards knew exactly where they stood at any given moment. There was no "award reveal ceremony" with the NAACP in attendance. People knew in advance.

    The two methods come down to normal GPA and a thing called QPA (quality point average), which gives you a boost for AP courses and the like. So that explains it, the white kids took AP courses while the black kids took grievance study rap session courses, right?

    No, it was the opposite. The black girls won under QPA. But the awards were supposed to be given under the normal heritage GPA. QPA is a thing used in school transcript sent to colleges. This was in the school handbook.

    So the whites win on the rules, but the blacks win on the academic rigor (and they don't like rules anyway).

    But I'm seriously flummoxed that black students would win when 17 percent of the kids are whites. As always, there must be a REST OF THE STORY. Is there a private school for whites and the students left at the normal school, while smart enough to always be in the top 10, nevertheless on the dumb end for white students, so from time to time not the top 2? Is this QPA thing legitimate? What exactly were the classes that all the students took?

    Apparently there is a lawsuit cooking, and there are lawyers who specialize in valedictorian disputes. Believe it or not.

    Over 250 comments at the NYT site so far, all supporting the black girls.

    What I foresee is that these two girls are outliers, that the rule book will be changed to use QPA, and then blacks will be completely frozen out because of that. On the other hand, two outliers in a single year? Maybe the white kids at this school are truly dummies.

    Replies: @Some Guy

    But I’m seriously flummoxed that black students would win when 17 percent of the kids are whites.

    The white kids did win on the terms for valedictorian that were set and on which people actually competed on, what’s so hard to understand?

    Suppose person A is the fastest person in a 100m sprint, but the judges accidentally give the prize to the person B who ran 110m the fastest, does that mean person B “actually won” since he ran further? No, because that’s not what they were competing on.

    • Replies: @Anon
    @Some Guy



    But I’m seriously flummoxed that black students would win when 17 percent of the kids are whites.
     
    The white kids did win on the terms for valedictorian that were set and on which people actually competed on, what’s so hard to understand?
     
    What's hard to understand is that (1) black kids were anywhere near the white kids in the ranking, and (2) black girls were smarter than the white "winners (having taken more challenging classes)."

    The "terms that were set" allowed for the dumber students to win over the smarter students. That the black students are smarter is what flummoxed me.

    Now more reading of the comments from I-Jew and of the local paper (which as usual is much better on the facts than the national papers) have muddled things:

    1. The black parents claim that the manual did not specify that GPA should be used over QPA. I read a chunk of the manual and an explanation in the local paper, and it seems that either QPA was supposed to be used, or else the manual mixed things up in a way that it is impossible to figure out how the awards were supposed to be awarded.

    2. There seems to have been no malice in the computational goof. The employee was brand new, had never done it before, the system is amazingly not computerized, and the employee's training was minimal. Also, as I said, the manual is somewhat incomprehensible.

    3. As I-Jew pointed out, the sample size for the white students was really small. It could actually be the case that they were all a bunch of dummies, barely at the level of the black students. When you only have three dozen kids, who knows? The big question is where are the missing white kids? There must be another school in the area.

    4. One of the black mothers claims that the black girls took "four or five" AP classes, and the white kids took "zero or one." She is something of an unreliable narrator however and I doubt she really knows for sure.

    Replies: @Some Guy

  179. @Polemos

    "You charged me with doing what I really believe is right by your students despite race, color, socioeconomic, whatever."
     
    —Mr. Burnell McDonald, "who is Black"

    Re: QPA versus GPA
    Doesn't the article suggest that the white students didn't take AP courses or dual enrollment courses? Dual enrollment is a good idea for public school students to blast through college and get ahead quickly, but at the risk of subjecting oneself to college level testing/grading—it won't game right if all you're doing is maximizing grade instead of high or long-term achievement or understanding. But had the white students taken the same advanced course load as the black ones, they'd have ended up on top then too, right? No matter how much admin games the weighting, they'd still triumph, if they had the grades.

    What if it really is the case that the short-sighted and ambitionless white students wrongly stole accomplishments from hard-working and high-achieving black students?

    Replies: @Abolish_public_education

    Dual enrollment is a good idea for public school students ..

    No. It’s actually just another public education gimmick designed to keep (in this case smartish) warm bodies (i.e. funding tokens) inside the K-12 school system. Other popular schemes of that sort nowadays include:

    • high schools offering AA degrees.

    • possible “approval” of transfer to out-of-district schools for students seeking enrichment opportunities (e.g. fine arts) unavailable in-district.

    • access to scholastic sports teams and activities for home study “enrolled” kids.

    [MORE]

    @#69 Dato: I’m really getting tired of these “bullets into a crowd” stories. What are we up to now, one per week?! I tell friends who intend to visit LA to avoid 3rd St, Universal Walk, Venice, etc.

    Many years ago, when this sort of depraved indifference was extremely rare (except in war zones), an acquaintance of mine was seriously wounded like this. The young victim spent 10+, agonizing years in-&-out of hospitals and physical rehabilitation before finally succumbing to the injuries. Outrageous.

  180. @eded
    Are Valedictorian and Salutatorian a really big deal in the US? Does it go on your college application?

    In Canada it's not a big deal. In my high school the students voted to determine who it would be. It was kind of a joke. No one speaks of it after graduation.

    How do you weight the courses according to degree of difficulty? I can't imagine my teachers putting in that much effort to determine the winner.

    Replies: @Anthony Aaron

    In recent years, upwards of 50% of graduates from some universities have been given ‘cum laude’ awards of various stripes … everyone wins a prize and everyone gets a gold star … and, well, only a few can actually read and write and add, subtract, multiply and divide.

    But, hey … it’s for ‘the cause’ …

  181. @Anonymous
    @Desiderius

    There are a lot of AP idolators about. I have always been suspicious of it. Probably easier to compare AP physics or biology from one school to another, but AP history? AP music? It is routine to meet not very intellectual but level-headed/diligent kids who took and passed several AP courses in a year, but the admissions benefit depends on the exam score so what’s the point of herding kids into these gussied-up versions of the regular course? Whatever a given h.s. might wring out of the programs, their primary effect is credentialism and application-polishing.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @vhrm, @Paperback Writer

    It was, but it’s turned into something more nefarious than that this century. I’d still probably want my kids in something similar? It would be close and they wouldn’t be getting anything near what I got either in terms of quality or simple authenticity.

    Hoping for something new by the time they get there.

  182. @Anonymous
    @Desiderius

    There are a lot of AP idolators about. I have always been suspicious of it. Probably easier to compare AP physics or biology from one school to another, but AP history? AP music? It is routine to meet not very intellectual but level-headed/diligent kids who took and passed several AP courses in a year, but the admissions benefit depends on the exam score so what’s the point of herding kids into these gussied-up versions of the regular course? Whatever a given h.s. might wring out of the programs, their primary effect is credentialism and application-polishing.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @vhrm, @Paperback Writer

    There are a lot of AP idolators about. I have always been suspicious of it. Probably easier to compare AP physics or biology from one school to another, but AP history? AP music?

    The whole point is that the AP courses are comparable across schools because they have a minimum curriculum that they have to cover for each course and this is at least somewhat verified. Otherwise there’s nothing to prevent a HS from having a “calculus” class that’s really just Algebra 2

    It is routine to meet not very intellectual but level-headed/diligent kids who took and passed several AP courses in a year, but the admissions benefit depends on the exam score so what’s the point of herding kids into these gussied-up versions of the regular course? Whatever a given h.s. might wring out of the programs, their primary effect is credentialism and application-polishing.

    The main point is to use a test that’s comparable across the country. Given the incentives for teachers, principals and school districts to do grade inflation, standardized testing, is the only way to compare students between classes (and schools, school districts and states).

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @vhrm

    Lol.

    Your standards are only as good as what they’re measuring. If they’re measuring STEM you’ve got a glorified vocational school. If they’re not might want to take a look at what they are instead of burying your head in the sand of empty proceduralism.

    Replies: @Alden, @vhrm

  183. @Jack D
    @AnotherDad

    I agree with you that blacks are relatively OK before puberty (that's why I specified high school in my comment though I'd include middle school too).

    But as for the idea that no one really needs to be taking calculus in 6th grade, that's wrong. Every kid needs to be educated at their own level or they'll either be lost or else they'll be bored. If you are up to doing calculus in 6th grade then you should be doing calculus. And math is a young man's game as much as football is. If you waste several of your prime math years spinning your wheels you are never getting those years back.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Art Deco, @Paperback Writer

    It’s not a violent Northern school with triple sessions and hardened ghetto hood rats. The white kids are probably in academic-track classes. And the few whites who are not are probably having a good time f’ing up with their black buddies and playing on the sports teams.

    Feynman didn’t study calc until high school:

    https://www.aip.org/history-programs/niels-bohr-library/oral-histories/5020-1

    As for hanging around with blacks after puberty, in general, this is a chilling story.

    http://danhill.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Every-Parents-Nightmare-McLeans-Feb09.pdf

    • Replies: @Jack D
    @Paperback Writer


    The white kids are probably in academic-track classes.
     
    The school is very small - only 35 white kids per grade. You have to figure that only half are on an academic track, especially since they are mostly poor whites - almost every white with money sends his kid to the "Christian Academy" (white school) across the street. Plus nowadays blacks are not going to tolerate all white classes. And there can't be that many classes to begin with in a school with fewer than 200 kids per grade. So POSSIBLY, the academic classes are only 50% black instead of 80%. Taking from the top 50% of blacks is not good enough - only 15% of blacks have IQ greater than 100. You are not going to learn any advanced subject sitting in a HS class with 50% blacks with an average IQ of 90. Even if they are not disruptive (which is not a sure thing) the class is going to have to be taught to their level. The only reason white people would tolerate this at all is that many people in small towns in the South have remarkably low academic ambitions such that as long as the football team is good, the rest doesn't matter.

    Not all mathematical geniuses develop at the same pace, but if you read the interview with Feynman, by the end of high school he had not only taught himself calculus but was able to apply it at a very high level - devising his own proofs of fundamental laws of physics from first principles, etc.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer

  184. @Paperback Writer
    The articles says or implies - I'm not gonna read it again - that the black students took the harder courses. Or was it the white students?

    I find NY Times articles hard to understand. I was not my HS valedictorian.

    Replies: @tyrone, @Gaspar DeLaFunk

    I’m pretty confident the black students took plenty of “black” type stuff. A comprehensive exit exam might shed some light on who took harder courses.
    Maybe the white student needs the term valedictorian on their record more than the black. If you’re black,you’re already the best person in the room.

    PS:Dear Leader,will you touch on the Austin shooting?

    • Replies: @Paperback Writer
    @Gaspar DeLaFunk

    You don't know that - you're just randomly shooting in the dark.

    Look - this whole thing is a nothingburger, but don't distort the facts.

  185. @prosa123
    Another really horrible crime happened earlier this morning in Brooklyn. A woman threw her *four week* old baby out of her second story apartment building, then threw her two year old toddler out the window, and finally jumped out herself - stark naked. Although she was injured in the fall she remained conscious, and went over to the four week old infant and began beating its head into the sidewalk. Neighbors stopped her, but last I heard it's not certain if the infant will survive. The two year old suffered less serious injuries. As the neighbors were restraining the woman she was screaming that she was tired of being alone.

    All this happened in Brownsville, a part of eastern Brooklyn that until around 1950 was the center of the borough's Jewish community. It has not fared well since then, to put it very mildly.

    Replies: @J.Ross

    The important thing is that the lockdown prevented this woman and her children from contracting Covid-19.

  186. @vhrm
    @Anonymous


    There are a lot of AP idolators about. I have always been suspicious of it. Probably easier to compare AP physics or biology from one school to another, but AP history? AP music?
     
    The whole point is that the AP courses are comparable across schools because they have a minimum curriculum that they have to cover for each course and this is at least somewhat verified. Otherwise there's nothing to prevent a HS from having a "calculus" class that's really just Algebra 2

    It is routine to meet not very intellectual but level-headed/diligent kids who took and passed several AP courses in a year, but the admissions benefit depends on the exam score so what’s the point of herding kids into these gussied-up versions of the regular course? Whatever a given h.s. might wring out of the programs, their primary effect is credentialism and application-polishing.
     
    The main point is to use a test that's comparable across the country. Given the incentives for teachers, principals and school districts to do grade inflation, standardized testing, is the only way to compare students between classes (and schools, school districts and states).

    Replies: @Desiderius

    Lol.

    Your standards are only as good as what they’re measuring. If they’re measuring STEM you’ve got a glorified vocational school. If they’re not might want to take a look at what they are instead of burying your head in the sand of empty proceduralism.

    • Troll: Hangnail Hans
    • Replies: @Alden
    @Desiderius

    Does anyone know what PHDs in programming and engineering are all about? Are those grads better than anyone with a BA? Especially engineering, how can an advanced degree make them better at actually designing and running bridges oil gas refineries HVAC nuclear plants electricity plants and grids and designing cars trucks planes bikes tractors bulldozers combines other harvesters roads freeways factories motorcycles appliances

    I can sort understand why the space program might want guys with astronautical engineering Masters degrees. But what’s the purpose of engineering PHDs?

    Replies: @CCG, @KL, @res

    , @vhrm
    @Desiderius


    Lol.

    Your standards are only as good as what they’re measuring. If they’re measuring STEM you’ve got a glorified vocational school. If they’re not might want to take a look at what they are instead of burying your head in the sand of empty proceduralism.
     
    I don't understand what you're getting at or how that's supposed to be a "burn". What you say applies to any school or education endeavor.

    The standards for the AP tests are available at various levels of detail from both the College Board and third party sources and they're generally reasonably rigorous. They're also better since you cover in a whole year what otherwise you'd have to cover in one semester. The humanities ones are probably less "woke" (or no more woke) than what people would get in HS or college otherwise.

    That STEM statement seems like a red herring, but i'll mention that STEM at this level is less vocational, and more a foundational knowledge to be a citizen in a modern technological society. The AP classes are mostly 101 level classes except that for math and physics they offer some "102" types as well. Formulating an opinion on many to most policy items requires some understanding of statistics, biology, physics or chem. See e.g. the "gene therapy" and "vaccines make you magnetic" issues. And an intro to computer science (or at least "how computers / the internet works") sure can't hurt.

    Do you have an objection to the AP program / tests as currently implemented ? What's "nefarious", low-quality or inauthentic about it?

    Replies: @Desiderius

  187. New list of Steve’s greatest quotes starting here:

  188. Off Topic

    Santiago de Chile gets locked up again due to the Coof. 11.2 million out of 19 million have received at least one injection of some kind of vaccine.

    https://en.mercopress.com/2021/06/11/santiago-de-chile-metropolitan-region-back-under-full-quarantine

    Hope they have adequate supplies of Ivermectin and the will to use it.

  189. @Anonymous
    OT.

    On the AIDS related death of Tommy Lasorda's son,

    "Those who live by La Sword, die by La Sword".

    (Sorry).

    Replies: @JohnnyWalker123

    GQ had an interesting article about that back in 1992.

    Read it here. Sort of painful to read.

    https://deadspin.com/the-brief-life-and-complicated-death-of-tommy-lasordas-485999366

  190. anon[347] • Disclaimer says:

    So sad that average I.Q.’s are also tied to racial groups. Totally blocks a meaningful and very important discussion.

    Here is my reflexive obnoxious comment, that I almost always give for this kind of article:

    WAKANDA !
    (the unspoiled paradise where they wisely build The Wall to keep them out)

  191. @Anonymous
    @Desiderius

    There are a lot of AP idolators about. I have always been suspicious of it. Probably easier to compare AP physics or biology from one school to another, but AP history? AP music? It is routine to meet not very intellectual but level-headed/diligent kids who took and passed several AP courses in a year, but the admissions benefit depends on the exam score so what’s the point of herding kids into these gussied-up versions of the regular course? Whatever a given h.s. might wring out of the programs, their primary effect is credentialism and application-polishing.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @vhrm, @Paperback Writer

    Wait, now that two black girls took AP they’re bad?

    The black girls be applauded for taking AP classes. Not idolized. But rewarded – yeah.

  192. If these scores follow IQ, then we know that for whites m = 100, sd = 15 and blacks m = 85 (or maybe 90), sd = 15. If the student populations are homogeneous then we can estimate some things. From standard normal tables we get probabilities: for whites pw( > 115) = pw( > 1) = 1 – 0.8413 = 0.1587,
    pw( > 130) = pw( > 2) = 1 – 0.9772 = 0.0228; for blacks with m = 85 pb( > 115) = pb( > 2) = 1 – 0.9772 = 0.0228, pb( > 130) = pb( > 3) = 1 – 0.9987 = 0.0013; or with m= 90 pb( > 115) = pb( > 1.66) = 1 – 0.9515 = 0.0484, pb( > 130) = pb( > 2.66) = 1 – 0.9961 = 0.0039. So if we take a group of 1000 whites we get the expected number of whites: with IQs > 115 nw115 = 158 > 130 nw130 = 22; similarly with blacks m = 85 nb115 = 23, nb130 = 1; with m = 90 n115 = 48 nb130 = 4 .

  193. @Pseudonym
    @Jack D

    Believe it or not, my well-to-do suburban Boston high school imported students from Roxbury. I remember them hassling me and trying to shake me down for money freshman year. It was done under a program called METCO to which my town and most other Boston suburbs still subscribe.

    Replies: @Bostonvegas, @JohnnyWalker123, @Boy the way Glenn Miller played

    How much street clout do the rough working-class Irish still have in Boston?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @JohnnyWalker123

    My impression from a few visits to Boston is that body language of white working class Bostonians suggest they believe it's their hometurf, a sharp contrast to whites in most of Chicago.

  194. @Dr. DoomNGloom
    The councilor *might* have been confused, but I'm surprised they don't have the algorithm for GPA ranking built into the reporting system.

    Selecting Valedictorian isn't a new problem. The GPA has serious limits because of heterogeneity of course difficulty and grading. In my era, some schools discovered that the Valedictorians were always business track rather than STEM honors track because the honors STEM were harder.
    The hack to address this problem was to add a point to honors class, (A=5.0 instead of A=4.0).

    This had consequences the ed majors didn't foresee. Taking a non-honors course instead of a study hall would *lower* GPA because once you were > 4.0, there was any non-honors would lower the GPA.

    There are ways to address this, but like an IQ test, the methods are prescriptive, but not transparent. Of course the math of latent factor analysis is beyond most school administration.

    The the solution in some districts was to award anyone over 4.0 or anyone with straight A's the title of Valedictorian. This isn't as crazy as it sounds, it simply recognizes that there is no obvious way to reliably rank the students with the available data. Any specific approach is false precision.

    The alternatives are more or less to use a method that can be gamed or to make it subjective (e.g. a popularity vote among teachers)

    This all seemed pretty obvious to me in high school, but the school administration seemed unconcerned. They may have understood that there was nothing perfect, and who spoke at commencement or which parent got bragging rights didn't matter much.
    Times change.

    Replies: @Glaivester, @James Speaks

    The hack to address this problem was to add a point to honors class, (A=5.0 instead of A=4.0).

    This had consequences the ed majors didn’t foresee. Taking a non-honors course instead of a study hall would *lower* GPA because once you were > 4.0, there was any non-honors would lower the GPA.

    I think the way my school dealt with it was by giving points for English and the next four highest courses (points weighted for grades plus class quality). If you took more than five courses in a year, you got a bonus point or two. So foregoing a class never helped your class rank.

  195. • Thanks: Calvin Hobbes
  196. @ScarletNumber
    The irony is the school tried to do the right thing by letting the black valedictorian and salutatorian keep their honors that they were wrongfully given, but nothing is ever good enough for them.

    Replies: @JimB, @Barack Obama's secret Unz account, @guest, @Hermes

    In the morality of today, the “right thing” is to make blacks the valedictorian and salutatorian regardless of their GPAs or any other qualifications. Letting blacks LARP roles that have supposedly been unjustly denied to them in the past is deemed more important than that those roles mean anything whatsoever.

  197. @bigdicknick
    @Achmed E. Newman

    because gpa is not an IQ test. If anything GPA rewards people for not challenging themselves. unlike an IQ test where you cannot choose the questions in advance. GPA mostly measures diligence and work ethic.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    We were just doing stats here Nick, or as best as I can. What you wrote is probably true, but not the point of the exchange about IJ’s numbers. I found something that bugged me about the stats calculations.

  198. @Pseudonym
    @Jack D

    Believe it or not, my well-to-do suburban Boston high school imported students from Roxbury. I remember them hassling me and trying to shake me down for money freshman year. It was done under a program called METCO to which my town and most other Boston suburbs still subscribe.

    Replies: @Bostonvegas, @JohnnyWalker123, @Boy the way Glenn Miller played

    Around what year?

  199. @Dr. DoomNGloom
    The councilor *might* have been confused, but I'm surprised they don't have the algorithm for GPA ranking built into the reporting system.

    Selecting Valedictorian isn't a new problem. The GPA has serious limits because of heterogeneity of course difficulty and grading. In my era, some schools discovered that the Valedictorians were always business track rather than STEM honors track because the honors STEM were harder.
    The hack to address this problem was to add a point to honors class, (A=5.0 instead of A=4.0).

    This had consequences the ed majors didn't foresee. Taking a non-honors course instead of a study hall would *lower* GPA because once you were > 4.0, there was any non-honors would lower the GPA.

    There are ways to address this, but like an IQ test, the methods are prescriptive, but not transparent. Of course the math of latent factor analysis is beyond most school administration.

    The the solution in some districts was to award anyone over 4.0 or anyone with straight A's the title of Valedictorian. This isn't as crazy as it sounds, it simply recognizes that there is no obvious way to reliably rank the students with the available data. Any specific approach is false precision.

    The alternatives are more or less to use a method that can be gamed or to make it subjective (e.g. a popularity vote among teachers)

    This all seemed pretty obvious to me in high school, but the school administration seemed unconcerned. They may have understood that there was nothing perfect, and who spoke at commencement or which parent got bragging rights didn't matter much.
    Times change.

    Replies: @Glaivester, @James Speaks

    Alma Mater looked at my high school grades, but only mathematics, chemistry, physics and biology. Non-stem subjects were not worthy of consideration.

    I had an experience presenting (you couldn’t call it teaching) at a woke high school. The AP Chem teacher would just tell her class to “figure things out.” She couldn’t do the work herself but was department head because black female. All of her students scored a 1 on their AP tests.

    Once, I had to watch her class for about half an hour. They asked good questions; I explained two chapters in the time allowed. Management was not pleased.

    Negro AP scores are meaningless for calculating GPA. If the school wants to apply quality points, then divide each student’s AP test score by 5 and apply this factor to their grade average.

    Just like those phony test scores in Fulton County a decade ago (all the perps were negroes), just like the phony election results in Fulton, DeKalb and Cobb Counties (photocopied ballots), everything negroes do is a fraud. BLM is a fraud, SPLC is a fraud, negro run elections are fraudulent, negro diversity managers are phony, negro anythng is fraudulent.

    • Replies: @res
    @James Speaks


    If the school wants to apply quality points, then divide each student’s AP test score by 5 and apply this factor to their grade average.
     
    Interesting proposal. Seems better than the usual add a point, but I am not sure the added complexity is worth it. If we really want something more complicated though might want to make it finer grained (e.g. perhaps a C and a 5 on the AP test should be worth more than a 3 GPA, but if you are seeing results like that or As with a 1 on the test then something is wrong with the grading).

    Replies: @James Speaks

  200. @vhrm
    @Calvin Hobbes


    Is there anything that prevents a school from just labeling certain courses as AP? Does anybody check whether an “AP” course covers what that AP course is supposed to cover?
     
    Each school has to get each class audited by the College Board company before it can be labled an AP course. (https://apcentral.collegeboard.org/courses/ap-course-audit )

    That said i don't think there are any standards in there for percentage of students that take the test or scores they must demonstrate or any analysis of grade vs test score.

    Replies: @Houston 1992

    so if the AP classes are graded by an outside grader/bubble test etc then the use of the AP classes can allow schools to circumvent the SAT ban on college admissions? AP Math and AP English data alone would alone one to make major inferences

    • Replies: @vhrm
    @Houston 1992

    short answer: you bet it does! AND it allows them to do so selectively by taking it into account for Asians and whites but letting blacks in with no scores. And since it's not required then there's statistics to compare and no pesky "gap" evil racists can point to or file lawsuits about. "Everybody wins!"

    longer:
    The AP classes are actually graded by the local teacher just like normal, but their curriculum for the year (though not the grading standards) would have been approved by the College Board.

    That curriculum is meant to prepare students to take the "AP test" (for that subject) that's created and graded by the College Board, the same company that creates/administers the SAT.

    Also, there was a whole other set of tests called "SAT: subject tests" subject matter tests which in my day used to be called "Achievement Tests" (vs the SAT which is (was) an "aptitude" (aka intelligence) test) and were a decently big deal.

    Apparently they were phased out this year for some reason and, yes the recommendation is to take AP tests instead.
    https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2021/01/20/college-board-kills-subject-tests-and-sat-essay

    Ironically, i think the SAT subject tests were probably "better" for people in the middle tiers where they won't get that 3+ on a Calc AP test, but could still show they know SOME physics / chem / math etc. oh well.

    Replies: @Houston 1992, @Hangnail Hans, @Calvin Hobbes

  201. @Mike Tre
    At least no one has been shot.

    Replies: @usNthem, @The Plutonium Kid

    At least no one has been shot.

    Yet.

  202. res says:

    One other wrinkle I did not see mentioned here. (BTW, Yahoo Sports covering this?!)
    https://sports.yahoo.com/two-white-families-got-riled-162200020.html

    It also did not help that the district allowed for two unrecorded grades of Berry’s to be added to her record after the deadline had passed, which the West Point branch of the NAACP told the Times isn’t a courtesy offered to all students.

    That really smells to me. Sounds like some serious gaming of the system going on here.

    I wasn’t able to find the WPHS policies (this is the closest I got: https://westpoint.msbapolicy.org/ ), but this 2017 Harrison County MS Secondary Handbook has a detailed description of their version of QPA which I am guessing should be pretty close to WPHS.
    https://www.harrison.k12.ms.us/UserFiles/Servers/Server_88227/File/HCSD/Docs/SECONDARY%20HANDBOOK.pdf

    See pp. 19-22 for QPA details.

    It looks like Harrison County uses QPA for honors. There is a short list (6, but plus ALL AP courses) of E2 classes which give a boost of 1 GPA point and a longer list (21) of E1 classes which give a 0.5 point boost. Notice that (table on pp. 21-22) they translate the 0-100 score into GPA/QPA with a 1/0.1 point resolution. Something like that might explain some of the cryptic wording we saw in the articles.

    • Thanks: vhrm
  203. @Desiderius
    @vhrm

    Lol.

    Your standards are only as good as what they’re measuring. If they’re measuring STEM you’ve got a glorified vocational school. If they’re not might want to take a look at what they are instead of burying your head in the sand of empty proceduralism.

    Replies: @Alden, @vhrm

    Does anyone know what PHDs in programming and engineering are all about? Are those grads better than anyone with a BA? Especially engineering, how can an advanced degree make them better at actually designing and running bridges oil gas refineries HVAC nuclear plants electricity plants and grids and designing cars trucks planes bikes tractors bulldozers combines other harvesters roads freeways factories motorcycles appliances

    I can sort understand why the space program might want guys with astronautical engineering Masters degrees. But what’s the purpose of engineering PHDs?

    • Replies: @CCG
    @Alden

    Engineering PhDs are about meeting credential requirements for being a University professor, a PhD program includes teaching classes as well as carrying out and publishing research.

    Replies: @Desiderius

    , @KL
    @Alden

    "What are PHDs in engineering all about?"

    Ph.D.'s are specialized within a field (electrical, mechanical, aeronautical, software, civil). If a BA in industry were adequate, then steam engineers would have invented nuclear plants.

    Only graduate courses cover particle physics or advanced computational algorithms. After taking them, a Ph.D. student must apply them to an innovative thesis project. Usually, it is a minor, unimportant variation that merely shows they have mastered and applied existing knowledge. But sometimes the student invents the laser or a fast new algorithm.

    , @res
    @Alden

    CCG gives a depressingly accurate response, but also consider the need for practicing engineers to innovate. I think the additional theoretical engineering knowledge can help with that.

    To engage with your examples, advanced degrees would be more useful for designing than running things. With a further distinction between designing yet another version of something and doing something new.

    A good example to think about is corporate research labs like we used to have at places like AT&T (Bell Labs, where the transistor came from), Xerox (various computer innovations), HP, and IBM.
    https://blog.dshr.org/2020/05/the-death-of-corporate-research-labs.html

  204. @Desiderius
    @vhrm

    Lol.

    Your standards are only as good as what they’re measuring. If they’re measuring STEM you’ve got a glorified vocational school. If they’re not might want to take a look at what they are instead of burying your head in the sand of empty proceduralism.

    Replies: @Alden, @vhrm

    Lol.

    Your standards are only as good as what they’re measuring. If they’re measuring STEM you’ve got a glorified vocational school. If they’re not might want to take a look at what they are instead of burying your head in the sand of empty proceduralism.

    I don’t understand what you’re getting at or how that’s supposed to be a “burn”. What you say applies to any school or education endeavor.

    The standards for the AP tests are available at various levels of detail from both the College Board and third party sources and they’re generally reasonably rigorous. They’re also better since you cover in a whole year what otherwise you’d have to cover in one semester. The humanities ones are probably less “woke” (or no more woke) than what people would get in HS or college otherwise.

    That STEM statement seems like a red herring, but i’ll mention that STEM at this level is less vocational, and more a foundational knowledge to be a citizen in a modern technological society. The AP classes are mostly 101 level classes except that for math and physics they offer some “102” types as well. Formulating an opinion on many to most policy items requires some understanding of statistics, biology, physics or chem. See e.g. the “gene therapy” and “vaccines make you magnetic” issues. And an intro to computer science (or at least “how computers / the internet works”) sure can’t hurt.

    Do you have an objection to the AP program / tests as currently implemented ? What’s “nefarious”, low-quality or inauthentic about it?

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @vhrm

    Yes.

    My objection is that they have produced an Unruling Class that is proving and has proven themselves entirely not up to the tasks for which your system was supposed to prepare them.

    Proof is in the pudding. You’ve mistaken form for content. Those who in prior ages would have been attending to that content (and preventing the disaster brewing for at least a generation) have instead contented themselves with questions of mere form as you’ve done here.

    Replies: @res

  205. @TontoBubbaGoldstein
    The comments at the Times are a hoot!!

    With all the fluff and extraneous info in the article it was somewhat difficult to tell what happened. It seems that many schools weigh GPAs in AP courses heavier than GPA in other courses, but this school does not. (I'll leave it to the gentle reader to theorize on why this would be the case in a mostly black school...)
    It should go without saying that the awards go to the people who qualify for them based on the specified criteria, but this seems very difficult for some.
    This year, the schools criteria, which was set up to favor black students...hiccupped and produced a white Valedictorian and Salutatorian; so the school changed the criteria to ensure the young black ladies won.
    In fairness, I think the system that rewarded the two black students is the fairer system. Too bad the school wasn't using it.

    Replies: @Colin Wright, @Getaclue

    ‘The comments at the Times are a hoot!!”

    Probably not. The situation has ceased to be amusing.

  206. @JohnnyWalker123
    @Pseudonym

    How much street clout do the rough working-class Irish still have in Boston?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    My impression from a few visits to Boston is that body language of white working class Bostonians suggest they believe it’s their hometurf, a sharp contrast to whites in most of Chicago.

  207. OT, but still about computation and race:

    ‘60 Minutes’ ran an episode about algorithm bias. Only White experts were given airtime.


    Black women have been at the forefront of leading research on the social and ethical implications of artificial intelligence — including University of California at Los Angeles professor Safiya Noble, author of “Algorithms of Oppression: How Search Engines Reinforce Racism” and Princeton University professor Ruha Benjamin, author of “Race After Technology: Abolitionist Tools for the New Jim Code.” But their research has repeatedly been overlooked and diminished by others in the tech industry, according to Buolamwini and Raji.

    https://www.thelily.com/60-minutes-ran-an-episode-about-algorithm-bias-only-white-experts-were-given-airtime/

    The story is in the Washington Post’s women’s section,“The Lily”. Unlike the rest of the Post, it does not allow comments.

    • Replies: @Hangnail Hans
    @PiltdownMan


    "Black women have been at the forefront of leading research on the social and ethical implications of artificial intelligence"
     
    Admit it everyone: partway through that sentence you stopped reading and started laughing.
  208. @Mr. Blank
    This stuff can be tricky in the South.

    Back when I was a young reporter just starting out in a small Southern farming town, I covered the local high school graduation.

    For as long as anybody could remember — heck, probably since integration — the school had named two valedictorians: A Valedictorian (who was always white), and a Minority Valedictorian (who was always black). Those were the official titles.

    The year I happened to cover the graduation, the inevitable finally happened: the “minority” with the highest GPA wasn’t black — it was a Hispanic girl. So the school named THREE valedictorians: A Valedictorian, a Minority Valedictorian, and a Black Valedictorian, a title which had been created just for the occasion. All three spoke at graduation.

    That was decades ago, but I’ve noticed that in the community I live in now — in rural Florida — none of the high schools have the traditional valedictorian and salutatorian speeches at graduations. Instead, the student speakers get vague descriptions like “inspirational speaker” and “vision speaker,” and they are always racially balanced. I assume it’s some kind of affirmative action thing, where they created an achievement that only blacks can win so that blacks are always represented, but then gave everything intentionally vague names so it wouldn’t be immediately obvious what was going on.

    The local blacks don’t seem to have any problems with this arrangement, as long as they get their awards. It’s plaques for blacks, as Tom Wolfe put it. I’ve wondered sometimes if big awards show like the Oscars will eventually try something like this, or if they’d be worried about it seeming too desperate.

    (As an aside: the old, now nearly extinct practice in the South of holding “segregated” proms — much criticized by non-Southerners — was originally driven as much by local blacks as by local whites. Back in the day, black parents got quite worked up over the thought of their kids “mixing” with whites in a romantic setting; segregated proms were originally a mutual compromise from the early days of integration. It was only later that blacks changed their minds about the practice.)

    Replies: @Charlotte, @Muggles

    the old, now nearly extinct practice in the South of holding “segregated” proms — much criticized by non-Southerners — was originally driven as much by local blacks as by local whites. Back in the day, black parents got quite worked up over the thought of their kids “mixing” with whites in a romantic setting

    Were they opposed because they didn’t like the idea of their child with a white person, or because they worried the situation would cause trouble with the local whites? Or was it both?

    • Replies: @Neil Templeton
    @Charlotte

    As my grandma used to say: "East is East and West is West, and ne'er the 'twain shall meet."

    Replies: @Abolish_public_education

  209. West Point, hometown of late bluesman, Howlin’ Wolf (Chester Arthur Burnett).

  210. @Houston 1992
    @vhrm

    so if the AP classes are graded by an outside grader/bubble test etc then the use of the AP classes can allow schools to circumvent the SAT ban on college admissions? AP Math and AP English data alone would alone one to make major inferences

    Replies: @vhrm

    short answer: you bet it does! AND it allows them to do so selectively by taking it into account for Asians and whites but letting blacks in with no scores. And since it’s not required then there’s statistics to compare and no pesky “gap” evil racists can point to or file lawsuits about. “Everybody wins!”

    longer:
    The AP classes are actually graded by the local teacher just like normal, but their curriculum for the year (though not the grading standards) would have been approved by the College Board.

    That curriculum is meant to prepare students to take the “AP test” (for that subject) that’s created and graded by the College Board, the same company that creates/administers the SAT.

    Also, there was a whole other set of tests called “SAT: subject tests” subject matter tests which in my day used to be called “Achievement Tests” (vs the SAT which is (was) an “aptitude” (aka intelligence) test) and were a decently big deal.

    Apparently they were phased out this year for some reason and, yes the recommendation is to take AP tests instead.
    https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2021/01/20/college-board-kills-subject-tests-and-sat-essay

    Ironically, i think the SAT subject tests were probably “better” for people in the middle tiers where they won’t get that 3+ on a Calc AP test, but could still show they know SOME physics / chem / math etc. oh well.

    • Agree: res
    • Replies: @Houston 1992
    @vhrm

    Thanks
    So AP “5”s are the new SAT >760 / 800 ? And AP results are buried in the “wholistic application “ and won’t be tracked .... so Steve Sailer got the education reform that he wanted , viz, a switch from SAT focus to substantive knowledge / skills of the AP.
    So Sailer is the “ hidden hand “ nudging reform from his closet.

    , @Hangnail Hans
    @vhrm

    One comes away with the impression that AP tests are not long for this world, at least not in their present form.

    , @Calvin Hobbes
    @vhrm


    The AP classes are actually graded by the local teacher just like normal, but their curriculum for the year (though not the grading standards) would have been approved by the College Board.
     
    In my high school, the same guy (who was old when I was there) always taught Geometry, and he used an old book that followed Euclid pretty closely. The year after I took Geometry, to his dismay, the state board that certified textbooks took his book off the list of allowed textbooks. The next year he had to use a newfangled book with a very different style that he did not like. (Plus he knew how to do all the problems in the old book by heart, and he probably hated having to figure out new problems.) But then he found out that the rule about textbooks was that he had to have an approved textbook on his desk. So the next year and for some years after that, he had the new book unopened on his desk and taught out of the old book, probably until the school’s copies of the old book wore out.

    My point of this story is that rules can be circumvented if there’s not effective enforcement.

    So suppose the “AP Calculus” teacher at West Point High submits a standard “AP Calculus” curriculum to the College Board and then teaches a very different course that does not resemble the curriculum. Maybe he only covers a small fraction of what’s in “the curriculum”, or maybe he teaches Algebra 2 along with the recipes for differentiating and integrating polynomials. What then? If no one complains (maybe because his students find his course hard already and are not going to demand that he make it even harder and they appreciate their “AP class” QPA bonus points), is there any reason that could not go on indefinitely?

    Replies: @res

  211. @Flemur
    Here are pics of the "counselors" - unlike he fakenews reports, they're divided into West Point North and West Point South, perhaps to protect the guilty:
    https://www.westpoint.k12.ms.us/counselorscorner

    Replies: @Calvin Hobbes, @Buffalo Joe

    Flemur, thank you. Traqundus Boyd. And I took four years of Latin, where do they get these names. And willing to bet that some lil chile is goin be birth named Valedictorian or Salutatorian only with some apostrphes and hyphens.

    • LOL: Ron Mexico
    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Buffalo Joe


    And willing to bet that some lil chile is goin be birth named Valedictorian or Salutatorian only with some apostrphes and hyphens.
     
    And the hyphen will survive longer than the hymen.
  212. @vhrm
    @AnotherDad

    This story doesn't intrinsically have much to do with diversity, unless you mean diversity of algorithms to calculate GPA.

    Instead, the values and actions of all the parents involved seem to be very much the same: fighting for their kid to be recognized because being first (and second) in school ranking is important to them.

    The bottom line for me is how unhelpful it is when the media and other agitators try to try to make everything about race.

    Replies: @AnotherDad

    This story doesn’t intrinsically have much to do with diversity, unless you mean diversity of algorithms to calculate GPA.

    Disagree.

    The cause maybe just some confusion on algorithms and choosing valedictorian.

    But the story is entirely that this entirely routine and trivial event stirred up a bunch of racial contention in the school/community. The story is entirely about the reality that diversity creates contention.

    If this was four white kids or four black kids no one would ever have heard about it except for them, their families a few friends. There would be no community contention and division, the NYT would not be reporting, Steve would not be blogging nor you and i commenting.

  213. @Bardon Kaldian
    Perhaps OT, but I would advise people who come to Steve's blog to read a very good article here, coming from AmRen:

    https://www.unz.com/ghood/the-washington-post-treat-america-like-a-conquered-nation/

    The Washington Post: Treat America Like a Conquered Nation

    It is great without offering solutions-why should it, by the way ....

    Also, it readable for normal people for at least three reasons:

    1. it doesn't peddle tiresome Jewish conspiracy, which embarrasses normal race realist people

    2. it doesn't make itself idiotic by calling blacks sub-humans & other imbecile and vulgar names

    3. it is concise & concentrated, so we don't have to read long expatiations on evolution, IQ etc.

    Replies: @Kylie

    Good article. Thanks.

  214. @vhrm
    @Houston 1992

    short answer: you bet it does! AND it allows them to do so selectively by taking it into account for Asians and whites but letting blacks in with no scores. And since it's not required then there's statistics to compare and no pesky "gap" evil racists can point to or file lawsuits about. "Everybody wins!"

    longer:
    The AP classes are actually graded by the local teacher just like normal, but their curriculum for the year (though not the grading standards) would have been approved by the College Board.

    That curriculum is meant to prepare students to take the "AP test" (for that subject) that's created and graded by the College Board, the same company that creates/administers the SAT.

    Also, there was a whole other set of tests called "SAT: subject tests" subject matter tests which in my day used to be called "Achievement Tests" (vs the SAT which is (was) an "aptitude" (aka intelligence) test) and were a decently big deal.

    Apparently they were phased out this year for some reason and, yes the recommendation is to take AP tests instead.
    https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2021/01/20/college-board-kills-subject-tests-and-sat-essay

    Ironically, i think the SAT subject tests were probably "better" for people in the middle tiers where they won't get that 3+ on a Calc AP test, but could still show they know SOME physics / chem / math etc. oh well.

    Replies: @Houston 1992, @Hangnail Hans, @Calvin Hobbes

    Thanks
    So AP “5”s are the new SAT >760 / 800 ? And AP results are buried in the “wholistic application “ and won’t be tracked …. so Steve Sailer got the education reform that he wanted , viz, a switch from SAT focus to substantive knowledge / skills of the AP.
    So Sailer is the “ hidden hand “ nudging reform from his closet.

  215. @Achmed E. Newman
    @Jonathan Mason

    Jonathan, your lack of perception of the Deep South is a problem, especially since you tell us you live in the most "Southern" area of Florida, Jacksonville. Did you ever think that if you talked to real Southerners more, maybe some old folks at home (it doesn't have to be on the Suwannee River), you may realize how ridiculous it is for you to judge these people still based on what you get from TV and the Lyin' Press?

    You agree with me and probably lots of people of different races who won't admit it, that separate schools is not a bad idea. See, Jonathan, that was the case before the Feral Gov't stepped in from the late 1950s on. Can you put yourself in mid-20th-century Southerner's shoes? Maybe you could realize that they knew more about race relations than you do to this day.

    You're like a caricature of the "ugly yankee", I'll call them, who come down South from Mass. or New York with disdain for all the actual Southern inhabitants. Yet somehow, it was worth it for them to move out of Mass or New York, and for you, England.

    One more idea, Jonathan: turn off your damn TV.

    Replies: @Alden, @Jonathan Mason

    I would love to oblige but I haven’t watched any TV at all for maybe 25 years, and even before that didn’t watch it very much, except for The Young and the Restless when I lived in Bermuda, because the whole island watched it.

    Okay I lie. I have watched a few golf tournaments and soccer games during the last 25 years, seen some CNN News while in airport waiting areas, and occasionally flipped through some channels in hotel rooms. Also some Peppa Pig.

  216. @PiltdownMan
    OT, but still about computation and race:


    ‘60 Minutes’ ran an episode about algorithm bias. Only White experts were given airtime.



    Black women have been at the forefront of leading research on the social and ethical implications of artificial intelligence — including University of California at Los Angeles professor Safiya Noble, author of “Algorithms of Oppression: How Search Engines Reinforce Racism” and Princeton University professor Ruha Benjamin, author of “Race After Technology: Abolitionist Tools for the New Jim Code.” But their research has repeatedly been overlooked and diminished by others in the tech industry, according to Buolamwini and Raji.

     

    https://www.thelily.com/60-minutes-ran-an-episode-about-algorithm-bias-only-white-experts-were-given-airtime/
     
    The story is in the Washington Post's women's section,"The Lily". Unlike the rest of the Post, it does not allow comments.

    Replies: @Hangnail Hans

    “Black women have been at the forefront of leading research on the social and ethical implications of artificial intelligence”

    Admit it everyone: partway through that sentence you stopped reading and started laughing.

  217. @vhrm
    @Houston 1992

    short answer: you bet it does! AND it allows them to do so selectively by taking it into account for Asians and whites but letting blacks in with no scores. And since it's not required then there's statistics to compare and no pesky "gap" evil racists can point to or file lawsuits about. "Everybody wins!"

    longer:
    The AP classes are actually graded by the local teacher just like normal, but their curriculum for the year (though not the grading standards) would have been approved by the College Board.

    That curriculum is meant to prepare students to take the "AP test" (for that subject) that's created and graded by the College Board, the same company that creates/administers the SAT.

    Also, there was a whole other set of tests called "SAT: subject tests" subject matter tests which in my day used to be called "Achievement Tests" (vs the SAT which is (was) an "aptitude" (aka intelligence) test) and were a decently big deal.

    Apparently they were phased out this year for some reason and, yes the recommendation is to take AP tests instead.
    https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2021/01/20/college-board-kills-subject-tests-and-sat-essay

    Ironically, i think the SAT subject tests were probably "better" for people in the middle tiers where they won't get that 3+ on a Calc AP test, but could still show they know SOME physics / chem / math etc. oh well.

    Replies: @Houston 1992, @Hangnail Hans, @Calvin Hobbes

    One comes away with the impression that AP tests are not long for this world, at least not in their present form.

  218. Anon[140] • Disclaimer says:
    @Some Guy
    @Anon


    But I’m seriously flummoxed that black students would win when 17 percent of the kids are whites.
     
    The white kids did win on the terms for valedictorian that were set and on which people actually competed on, what's so hard to understand?

    Suppose person A is the fastest person in a 100m sprint, but the judges accidentally give the prize to the person B who ran 110m the fastest, does that mean person B "actually won" since he ran further? No, because that's not what they were competing on.

    Replies: @Anon

    But I’m seriously flummoxed that black students would win when 17 percent of the kids are whites.

    The white kids did win on the terms for valedictorian that were set and on which people actually competed on, what’s so hard to understand?

    What’s hard to understand is that (1) black kids were anywhere near the white kids in the ranking, and (2) black girls were smarter than the white “winners (having taken more challenging classes).”

    The “terms that were set” allowed for the dumber students to win over the smarter students. That the black students are smarter is what flummoxed me.

    Now more reading of the comments from I-Jew and of the local paper (which as usual is much better on the facts than the national papers) have muddled things:

    1. The black parents claim that the manual did not specify that GPA should be used over QPA. I read a chunk of the manual and an explanation in the local paper, and it seems that either QPA was supposed to be used, or else the manual mixed things up in a way that it is impossible to figure out how the awards were supposed to be awarded.

    2. There seems to have been no malice in the computational goof. The employee was brand new, had never done it before, the system is amazingly not computerized, and the employee’s training was minimal. Also, as I said, the manual is somewhat incomprehensible.

    3. As I-Jew pointed out, the sample size for the white students was really small. It could actually be the case that they were all a bunch of dummies, barely at the level of the black students. When you only have three dozen kids, who knows? The big question is where are the missing white kids? There must be another school in the area.

    4. One of the black mothers claims that the black girls took “four or five” AP classes, and the white kids took “zero or one.” She is something of an unreliable narrator however and I doubt she really knows for sure.

    • Replies: @Some Guy
    @Anon


    black girls were smarter than the white “winners (having taken more challenging classes).”
     
    Again, that's like saying running 110m the fastest is more challenging than 100m the fastest. Not if everyone is competing to run 100m the fastest and doesn't know they're even competing for 110m.

    Perhaps the smartest whites were all competing on GPA precisely because there's so few whites that all the smart ones have a decent chance at being valedictorian. Perhaps the blacks didn't even realize how valedictorians had been selected previously, and therefore were actively competing on terms no smart whites were and that's why they were even there when they announced valedictorian.


    The black parents claim that the manual did not specify that GPA should be used over QPA.
     
    OK, but the black superintendant or whatever said the method used in previous years would've given it to the white kids. And with their valedictorian-obsessed white parents they should know how it's been done in previous years.

    There must be another school in the area.
     
    Yes, Oak Hill Academy that's 99% white.
  219. @Anon
    @Some Guy



    But I’m seriously flummoxed that black students would win when 17 percent of the kids are whites.
     
    The white kids did win on the terms for valedictorian that were set and on which people actually competed on, what’s so hard to understand?
     
    What's hard to understand is that (1) black kids were anywhere near the white kids in the ranking, and (2) black girls were smarter than the white "winners (having taken more challenging classes)."

    The "terms that were set" allowed for the dumber students to win over the smarter students. That the black students are smarter is what flummoxed me.

    Now more reading of the comments from I-Jew and of the local paper (which as usual is much better on the facts than the national papers) have muddled things:

    1. The black parents claim that the manual did not specify that GPA should be used over QPA. I read a chunk of the manual and an explanation in the local paper, and it seems that either QPA was supposed to be used, or else the manual mixed things up in a way that it is impossible to figure out how the awards were supposed to be awarded.

    2. There seems to have been no malice in the computational goof. The employee was brand new, had never done it before, the system is amazingly not computerized, and the employee's training was minimal. Also, as I said, the manual is somewhat incomprehensible.

    3. As I-Jew pointed out, the sample size for the white students was really small. It could actually be the case that they were all a bunch of dummies, barely at the level of the black students. When you only have three dozen kids, who knows? The big question is where are the missing white kids? There must be another school in the area.

    4. One of the black mothers claims that the black girls took "four or five" AP classes, and the white kids took "zero or one." She is something of an unreliable narrator however and I doubt she really knows for sure.

    Replies: @Some Guy

    black girls were smarter than the white “winners (having taken more challenging classes).”

    Again, that’s like saying running 110m the fastest is more challenging than 100m the fastest. Not if everyone is competing to run 100m the fastest and doesn’t know they’re even competing for 110m.

    Perhaps the smartest whites were all competing on GPA precisely because there’s so few whites that all the smart ones have a decent chance at being valedictorian. Perhaps the blacks didn’t even realize how valedictorians had been selected previously, and therefore were actively competing on terms no smart whites were and that’s why they were even there when they announced valedictorian.

    The black parents claim that the manual did not specify that GPA should be used over QPA.

    OK, but the black superintendant or whatever said the method used in previous years would’ve given it to the white kids. And with their valedictorian-obsessed white parents they should know how it’s been done in previous years.

    There must be another school in the area.

    Yes, Oak Hill Academy that’s 99% white.

  220. Black women in Cleveland, Miss., about 150 miles away

    Of course, this article was published by the NYT, whose offices are only about 150 miles away from the Mason-Dixon Line, and I don’t neee to tell you what happened to Black Women there.

  221. @Alden
    @Desiderius

    Does anyone know what PHDs in programming and engineering are all about? Are those grads better than anyone with a BA? Especially engineering, how can an advanced degree make them better at actually designing and running bridges oil gas refineries HVAC nuclear plants electricity plants and grids and designing cars trucks planes bikes tractors bulldozers combines other harvesters roads freeways factories motorcycles appliances

    I can sort understand why the space program might want guys with astronautical engineering Masters degrees. But what’s the purpose of engineering PHDs?

    Replies: @CCG, @KL, @res

    Engineering PhDs are about meeting credential requirements for being a University professor, a PhD program includes teaching classes as well as carrying out and publishing research.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @CCG

    The snake eats its tail.

    They’re intended to be about leading one’s field, setting standards for professional certification, making sure that practice in the field is informed by the latest research and maintaining the validity of that research, etc...

    Judging by my alumni magazine it’s fallen to the same bullshit* eating everything else.

    * -https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691122946/on-bullshit

  222. @JimDandy
    @JimDandy

    Hmm... at least 23 injured. No deaths. What would a race-realist profiler say?

    Replies: @Wielgus

    More shooting lessons?

  223. @vhrm
    @Desiderius


    Lol.

    Your standards are only as good as what they’re measuring. If they’re measuring STEM you’ve got a glorified vocational school. If they’re not might want to take a look at what they are instead of burying your head in the sand of empty proceduralism.
     
    I don't understand what you're getting at or how that's supposed to be a "burn". What you say applies to any school or education endeavor.

    The standards for the AP tests are available at various levels of detail from both the College Board and third party sources and they're generally reasonably rigorous. They're also better since you cover in a whole year what otherwise you'd have to cover in one semester. The humanities ones are probably less "woke" (or no more woke) than what people would get in HS or college otherwise.

    That STEM statement seems like a red herring, but i'll mention that STEM at this level is less vocational, and more a foundational knowledge to be a citizen in a modern technological society. The AP classes are mostly 101 level classes except that for math and physics they offer some "102" types as well. Formulating an opinion on many to most policy items requires some understanding of statistics, biology, physics or chem. See e.g. the "gene therapy" and "vaccines make you magnetic" issues. And an intro to computer science (or at least "how computers / the internet works") sure can't hurt.

    Do you have an objection to the AP program / tests as currently implemented ? What's "nefarious", low-quality or inauthentic about it?

    Replies: @Desiderius

    Yes.

    My objection is that they have produced an Unruling Class that is proving and has proven themselves entirely not up to the tasks for which your system was supposed to prepare them.

    Proof is in the pudding. You’ve mistaken form for content. Those who in prior ages would have been attending to that content (and preventing the disaster brewing for at least a generation) have instead contented themselves with questions of mere form as you’ve done here.

    • Replies: @res
    @Desiderius

    But do you think AP classes and tests are what has caused that? The underlying problems include credentialism (as I think you note frequently) and grade inflation (other suggestions?). I tend to think the AP tests provide a great reality check on the grade inflation. I think AP classes are probably adversely impacted by the obvious credentialist response (they all want to take them with the resulting need to dumb down the classes and eventually the tests, see iSteve's comments about low thresholds for 5s elsewhere, with the resulting lack of ceiling), but the AP class/test system seems more like part of the solution than part of the problem to me. (this does not mean the results can't be used nefariously, see vhrm's comment I agreed with)

    The big issue I see with AP is the push towards a curriculum monoculture. But if the curriculum is good that seems more like a feature than a bug (and if not, THAT is the problem to fix). And there should be room for capable students with good teachers to go beyond the required curriculum.

    The problem is, I don't have much direct experience with this. So welcome well thought out and expressed disagreement.

    P.S. I think your comment about measuring STEM and glorified vocational school is off target. See my other comment about engineering innovation and theoretical knowledge. And that doesn't even cover the Science part!

    Replies: @anon

  224. @res
    @International Jew

    Thanks for your analysis. I tend to agree with "on the other hand." What would make this even more interesting is to see the actual numbers for say the top 10 using both methods of calculation.

    Could someone elaborate on how the computations differed? I'm paywalled out of the NYT article, but the top comments seem to indicate that the difference was accounting for AP classes (by boosting their GPA) and that the black students were the ones who took more AP classes. If that is the case, I am kind of with the black students on this one. Sandbagging your GPA by taking easy classes is lame. In that case, the error would be with the handbook, and should just be fixed. With giving two sets of awards seeming reasonable given "those are the rules."

    This local article has some more details, but not enough to really understand (normally that would seem like a clue to me).
    https://mississippitoday.org/2021/06/02/west-point-valedictorian-dispute-sparks-allegations-of-racism/


    McDonald told Mississippi Today the high school guidance counselor was new to the school and was given incorrect information about how to determine the designations. The counselor selected the two students based on quality point average (QPA), which is measured on a 4.0 scale, instead of a strict numerical average of the students’ semester grades over their high school career, which the district defines as its grade point average (GPA), he said.

    McDonald said he looked at how valedictorian and salutatorian had been determined in past years and saw it was based on a 0-100 scale, or what the school refers to as GPA. The initial calculation was not conducted the proper way, he said.

    But the handbook a few pages later says GPA “is calculated by averaging the grade point weights assigned to semester averages,” which are 0.0 through 4.0. It goes on to say “Some classes may be weighted double see guidance counselors for this information..” (sic)

    A few pages earlier, under “Class Rank,” the handbook simply says “A student’s rank in his/her graduating class will be calculated by averaging his/her semester averages.”

    “(The parents’) argument was that based on our handbook, we should’ve been using semester averages,” he said. “And when you generate the report from the system, it clearly shows the two white students would’ve been first and second based on that number.”
     
    This article cites the NYT
    https://thehill.com/homenews/state-watch/558068-white-parents-claim-calculation-error-after-two-black-students-get-high

    According to the Times, the initial grade calculation was based on quality point average, which gives extra weight to grades from advanced placement courses. The second calculation was based on unweighted grade point average.
     

    Replies: @vhrm, @Desiderius, @Gamecock

    McDonald told Mississippi Today the high school guidance counselor was new to the school and was given incorrect information about how to determine the designations.

    So the counselor just did what she was told to do. IOW, she is not the perp. But her boss is happy to put the blame on her.

  225. @CCG
    @Alden

    Engineering PhDs are about meeting credential requirements for being a University professor, a PhD program includes teaching classes as well as carrying out and publishing research.

    Replies: @Desiderius

    The snake eats its tail.

    They’re intended to be about leading one’s field, setting standards for professional certification, making sure that practice in the field is informed by the latest research and maintaining the validity of that research, etc…

    Judging by my alumni magazine it’s fallen to the same bullshit* eating everything else.

    * -https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691122946/on-bullshit

  226. If you’re rigorously completing a Bridge over the River Kwai your rigor means nothing.

    • Replies: @Achmed E. Newman
    @Desiderius

    Great movie, one of my all time favorites. I get your point, but I see it a little differently.

    What the British Colonel Nicholson (Alec Guinness) was doing was giving his men a chance to keep their respect and dignity. Additionally, it was about being a proper engineer and building a proper bridge. I see both sides on this one. The fact that the railway bridge on the River Kwai was going to help the enemy got kind of lost in the mind of the Colonel and his men, as they gained back their dignity and respect.

    Madness! Madness!

  227. @Redneck farmer
    Uh, they couldn't figure out which method to use? Is the counselor someone promoted past their competence?

    Replies: @VivaLaMigra

    Just wondering why you used a plural pronoun – “their” – when referring to a SINGLE person. The grammatically correct construction would be “his competence” even though the gender of the individual is unknown. That’s been the English language rule for centuries, and it has served us well since it avoids confusion between singular and plural. It is understood that we don’t know the gender of the individual in question, just as when “they” is used, the gender breakdown of the group is often unknown. There is this thing called CONTEXT and listeners are expected to grasp that.

  228. @Skyler the Weird
    Those As in HomeEc and Hair Weave and Social Justice PE surely outshine A's in Math, Chemistry, and English, though A and B are more likely to get an offer to Harvard if they decide to forego Jackson State or Tougaloo.

    Replies: @Nat X

    The article states that the black kids took the harder courses but that doesn’t fit your narrative. Whites at it again…

  229. KL says:
    @Alden
    @Desiderius

    Does anyone know what PHDs in programming and engineering are all about? Are those grads better than anyone with a BA? Especially engineering, how can an advanced degree make them better at actually designing and running bridges oil gas refineries HVAC nuclear plants electricity plants and grids and designing cars trucks planes bikes tractors bulldozers combines other harvesters roads freeways factories motorcycles appliances

    I can sort understand why the space program might want guys with astronautical engineering Masters degrees. But what’s the purpose of engineering PHDs?

    Replies: @CCG, @KL, @res

    “What are PHDs in engineering all about?”

    Ph.D.’s are specialized within a field (electrical, mechanical, aeronautical, software, civil). If a BA in industry were adequate, then steam engineers would have invented nuclear plants.

    Only graduate courses cover particle physics or advanced computational algorithms. After taking them, a Ph.D. student must apply them to an innovative thesis project. Usually, it is a minor, unimportant variation that merely shows they have mastered and applied existing knowledge. But sometimes the student invents the laser or a fast new algorithm.

  230. @vhrm
    @Houston 1992

    short answer: you bet it does! AND it allows them to do so selectively by taking it into account for Asians and whites but letting blacks in with no scores. And since it's not required then there's statistics to compare and no pesky "gap" evil racists can point to or file lawsuits about. "Everybody wins!"

    longer:
    The AP classes are actually graded by the local teacher just like normal, but their curriculum for the year (though not the grading standards) would have been approved by the College Board.

    That curriculum is meant to prepare students to take the "AP test" (for that subject) that's created and graded by the College Board, the same company that creates/administers the SAT.

    Also, there was a whole other set of tests called "SAT: subject tests" subject matter tests which in my day used to be called "Achievement Tests" (vs the SAT which is (was) an "aptitude" (aka intelligence) test) and were a decently big deal.

    Apparently they were phased out this year for some reason and, yes the recommendation is to take AP tests instead.
    https://www.insidehighered.com/admissions/article/2021/01/20/college-board-kills-subject-tests-and-sat-essay

    Ironically, i think the SAT subject tests were probably "better" for people in the middle tiers where they won't get that 3+ on a Calc AP test, but could still show they know SOME physics / chem / math etc. oh well.

    Replies: @Houston 1992, @Hangnail Hans, @Calvin Hobbes

    The AP classes are actually graded by the local teacher just like normal, but their curriculum for the year (though not the grading standards) would have been approved by the College Board.

    In my high school, the same guy (who was old when I was there) always taught Geometry, and he used an old book that followed Euclid pretty closely. The year after I took Geometry, to his dismay, the state board that certified textbooks took his book off the list of allowed textbooks. The next year he had to use a newfangled book with a very different style that he did not like. (Plus he knew how to do all the problems in the old book by heart, and he probably hated having to figure out new problems.) But then he found out that the rule about textbooks was that he had to have an approved textbook on his desk. So the next year and for some years after that, he had the new book unopened on his desk and taught out of the old book, probably until the school’s copies of the old book wore out.

    My point of this story is that rules can be circumvented if there’s not effective enforcement.

    So suppose the “AP Calculus” teacher at West Point High submits a standard “AP Calculus” curriculum to the College Board and then teaches a very different course that does not resemble the curriculum. Maybe he only covers a small fraction of what’s in “the curriculum”, or maybe he teaches Algebra 2 along with the recipes for differentiating and integrating polynomials. What then? If no one complains (maybe because his students find his course hard already and are not going to demand that he make it even harder and they appreciate their “AP class” QPA bonus points), is there any reason that could not go on indefinitely?

    • Replies: @res
    @Calvin Hobbes


    What then?
     
    If the course is deficient then students probably do poorly on the AP tests. Whether or not anyone cares is another matter.
  231. @International Jew
    @International Jew

    On the other hand...
    The odds against black kids taking both of the top two slots are pretty long. The second-smartest kid out of 35 white kids will be at the 94th percentile for whites (1 - 2/35), thus 1.6 sd above the white mean. A black valedictorian + salutatorian means two black kids 2.6 sd above the black mean. The table says 2.6 sd is the top 0.466% of the population. So two of those will occur just 0.00466^2 of the time, or once every 46,000 (black) kids, ie once in about 300 years of graduating classes.

    Replies: @Papinian, @Buzz Mohawk, @Bardon Kaldian, @Jim Lahey, @Flemur, @Achmed E. Newman, @KL, @Sean c

    You are assuming grades will equal intelligence. In my experience that is not the case. Some people will receive A’s for substandard work especially if they are a certain race. A lot of intelligent people will not try and ace tests but not bother doing projects or homework. I would say something like a SAT test would more accurately rank by intelligence.

  232. @J.Ross
    @Desiderius

    (((Jonathan Kay))) feels no gratitude or loyalty to his country. Quelle surprise.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Jack D

    Regular Jews trapped in the same situation we are where their erstwhile leaders have gone completely off the rails and so the followers get lost in all sorts of nonsense.

    Here’s a book about gentiles doing the same thing Kay is here:

    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/77959.Lost_in_the_Cosmos

    It’s a Western (likely human) thing. Jews have just come down with a bad case of it.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @Desiderius

    Except that one group is influential to the other, and the other is not influential to it.

  233. res says:
    @James Speaks
    @Dr. DoomNGloom

    Alma Mater looked at my high school grades, but only mathematics, chemistry, physics and biology. Non-stem subjects were not worthy of consideration.

    I had an experience presenting (you couldn't call it teaching) at a woke high school. The AP Chem teacher would just tell her class to "figure things out." She couldn't do the work herself but was department head because black female. All of her students scored a 1 on their AP tests.

    Once, I had to watch her class for about half an hour. They asked good questions; I explained two chapters in the time allowed. Management was not pleased.

    Negro AP scores are meaningless for calculating GPA. If the school wants to apply quality points, then divide each student's AP test score by 5 and apply this factor to their grade average.

    Just like those phony test scores in Fulton County a decade ago (all the perps were negroes), just like the phony election results in Fulton, DeKalb and Cobb Counties (photocopied ballots), everything negroes do is a fraud. BLM is a fraud, SPLC is a fraud, negro run elections are fraudulent, negro diversity managers are phony, negro anythng is fraudulent.

    Replies: @res

    If the school wants to apply quality points, then divide each student’s AP test score by 5 and apply this factor to their grade average.

    Interesting proposal. Seems better than the usual add a point, but I am not sure the added complexity is worth it. If we really want something more complicated though might want to make it finer grained (e.g. perhaps a C and a 5 on the AP test should be worth more than a 3 GPA, but if you are seeing results like that or As with a 1 on the test then something is wrong with the grading).

    • Replies: @James Speaks
    @res


    ... but if you are seeing results like that or As with a 1 on the test then something is wrong with the grading.
     
    As in phony?
  234. @Alden
    @Desiderius

    So glad things are going well. But there are major differences between black 3 year olds black 8 year olds and even more black 13 year olds. Elementary school teachers tell me it’s about at age 8 or 9 blacks start to behave like well, blacks and it just get worse.

    Replies: @Anonymouse

    My mother was an elementary school teacher in the NYC public school system for 39 years. Latterly she taught 2nd grade – this was in Brownsville, Brooklyn a predominantly black and Puerto Rican neighborhood. She told me the black students in the earliest grades were just as motivated as the few white students she had but that at a certain age they “turned off” (her words) and became disinterested in being educated.

  235. res says:
    @Alden
    @Desiderius

    Does anyone know what PHDs in programming and engineering are all about? Are those grads better than anyone with a BA? Especially engineering, how can an advanced degree make them better at actually designing and running bridges oil gas refineries HVAC nuclear plants electricity plants and grids and designing cars trucks planes bikes tractors bulldozers combines other harvesters roads freeways factories motorcycles appliances

    I can sort understand why the space program might want guys with astronautical engineering Masters degrees. But what’s the purpose of engineering PHDs?

    Replies: @CCG, @KL, @res

    CCG gives a depressingly accurate response, but also consider the need for practicing engineers to innovate. I think the additional theoretical engineering knowledge can help with that.

    To engage with your examples, advanced degrees would be more useful for designing than running things. With a further distinction between designing yet another version of something and doing something new.

    A good example to think about is corporate research labs like we used to have at places like AT&T (Bell Labs, where the transistor came from), Xerox (various computer innovations), HP, and IBM.
    https://blog.dshr.org/2020/05/the-death-of-corporate-research-labs.html

  236. @Desiderius
    If you’re rigorously completing a Bridge over the River Kwai your rigor means nothing.

    Replies: @Achmed E. Newman

    Great movie, one of my all time favorites. I get your point, but I see it a little differently.

    What the British Colonel Nicholson (Alec Guinness) was doing was giving his men a chance to keep their respect and dignity. Additionally, it was about being a proper engineer and building a proper bridge. I see both sides on this one. The fact that the railway bridge on the River Kwai was going to help the enemy got kind of lost in the mind of the Colonel and his men, as they gained back their dignity and respect.

    Madness! Madness!

  237. @Paperback Writer
    @JimB

    Right, but I thought the article stated that the blacks took the more difficult courses. It's a dull article so I didn't read it that carefully.

    Replies: @JimB

    Right, but I thought the article stated that the blacks took the more difficult courses. It’s a dull article so I didn’t read it that carefully.

    Yes, but that means the black students had already benefited in the GPA computation since the more difficult courses would be weighted more heavily.

  238. @Paperback Writer
    @Jack D

    It's not a violent Northern school with triple sessions and hardened ghetto hood rats. The white kids are probably in academic-track classes. And the few whites who are not are probably having a good time f'ing up with their black buddies and playing on the sports teams.


    Feynman didn't study calc until high school:

    https://www.aip.org/history-programs/niels-bohr-library/oral-histories/5020-1

    As for hanging around with blacks after puberty, in general, this is a chilling story.

    http://danhill.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/Every-Parents-Nightmare-McLeans-Feb09.pdf

    Replies: @Jack D

    The white kids are probably in academic-track classes.

    The school is very small – only 35 white kids per grade. You have to figure that only half are on an academic track, especially since they are mostly poor whites – almost every white with money sends his kid to the “Christian Academy” (white school) across the street. Plus nowadays blacks are not going to tolerate all white classes. And there can’t be that many classes to begin with in a school with fewer than 200 kids per grade. So POSSIBLY, the academic classes are only 50% black instead of 80%. Taking from the top 50% of blacks is not good enough – only 15% of blacks have IQ greater than 100. You are not going to learn any advanced subject sitting in a HS class with 50% blacks with an average IQ of 90. Even if they are not disruptive (which is not a sure thing) the class is going to have to be taught to their level. The only reason white people would tolerate this at all is that many people in small towns in the South have remarkably low academic ambitions such that as long as the football team is good, the rest doesn’t matter.

    Not all mathematical geniuses develop at the same pace, but if you read the interview with Feynman, by the end of high school he had not only taught himself calculus but was able to apply it at a very high level – devising his own proofs of fundamental laws of physics from first principles, etc.

    • Replies: @Paperback Writer
    @Jack D

    Yes, I did read the interview, and having worked w/colleagues of the great man, I knew the general story anyway.

    Feynman began teaching himself calc at about age 14 and revealed his creative genius in short order. But he didn't start at age 11, which seems to have been your point a few comments back.

    Calc is like a form of athletics for the brain - it needs a certain muscular structure brought on by testosterone for the athletic prowess to form.

    That said, Terence Tao, the "Australian-American" mathematician, was indeed a child prodigy:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terence_Tao

    Must be something in the "Australian-American" genome....

    Sure, I agree with you about the school thing, just saying that this school isn't the hellhole an 80% black school in the north would be. Someone else provided a link for the guidance staff. The school looks like it's a big baby-sitting operation.

    Gonna be a helluva reckoning somewhere down the line.

  239. res says:
    @Desiderius
    @vhrm

    Yes.

    My objection is that they have produced an Unruling Class that is proving and has proven themselves entirely not up to the tasks for which your system was supposed to prepare them.

    Proof is in the pudding. You’ve mistaken form for content. Those who in prior ages would have been attending to that content (and preventing the disaster brewing for at least a generation) have instead contented themselves with questions of mere form as you’ve done here.

    Replies: @res

    But do you think AP classes and tests are what has caused that? The underlying problems include credentialism (as I think you note frequently) and grade inflation (other suggestions?). I tend to think the AP tests provide a great reality check on the grade inflation. I think AP classes are probably adversely impacted by the obvious credentialist response (they all want to take them with the resulting need to dumb down the classes and eventually the tests, see iSteve’s comments about low thresholds for 5s elsewhere, with the resulting lack of ceiling), but the AP class/test system seems more like part of the solution than part of the problem to me. (this does not mean the results can’t be used nefariously, see vhrm’s comment I agreed with)

    The big issue I see with AP is the push towards a curriculum monoculture. But if the curriculum is good that seems more like a feature than a bug (and if not, THAT is the problem to fix). And there should be room for capable students with good teachers to go beyond the required curriculum.

    The problem is, I don’t have much direct experience with this. So welcome well thought out and expressed disagreement.

    P.S. I think your comment about measuring STEM and glorified vocational school is off target. See my other comment about engineering innovation and theoretical knowledge. And that doesn’t even cover the Science part!

    • Replies: @anon
    @res

    But do you think AP classes and tests are what has caused that?

    He didn't reason himself into that position, you can't reason him out of it.

  240. @Gaspar DeLaFunk
    @Paperback Writer

    I'm pretty confident the black students took plenty of "black" type stuff. A comprehensive exit exam might shed some light on who took harder courses.
    Maybe the white student needs the term valedictorian on their record more than the black. If you're black,you're already the best person in the room.

    PS:Dear Leader,will you touch on the Austin shooting?

    Replies: @Paperback Writer

    You don’t know that – you’re just randomly shooting in the dark.

    Look – this whole thing is a nothingburger, but don’t distort the facts.

  241. The original idea behind weighted classes was to offset the lower grades one could expect from the more challenging AP curriculum. At the valedictorian level this has always been less of an issue so as I said those kids were gaming it from the start – one of the things that led to the foolish phasing out of the (unweighted of course) Industrial Arts curriculum.

    Nowadays the word’s out about the non-AP traditional (community) College Prep track so the AP classes are packed to the gills (I’ve seen as many as 37) with the concomitant watering down, grade inflation, and fashion chasing.

    That the best minds here are still merely re-hearsing that original rationale without “noticing” how it’s played out in practice says it all about the priority you’ve placed on conserving these institutions or what they’ve traditionally taught.

    • Replies: @res
    @Desiderius

    So your main objection is the effect the weighting of the GPAs for those classes has? (given the obvious response of the strivers) That seems reasonable. Perhaps a more nuanced approach to weighting the GPAs would help? Perhaps not--it is hard to come up with a reasonably equitable approach, and I think making one immune to gaming is impossible. Thinking about it, although not really equitable IMHO leaving the GPAs unweighted (or simply less than the likely hit to striver GPA by taking the harder class) seems like it would leave the AP classes better off in terms of only attracting the best students. (bringing things back to the current post, I do wonder what the AP grades and test scores were for the students in question. I am guessing WPHS has some heavy AP class grade inflation) Also, wouldn't the unweighted GPA system be the past you are advocating for?


    Nowadays the word’s out about the non-AP traditional (community) College Prep track so the AP classes are packed to the gills (I’ve seen as many as 37) with the concomitant watering down, grade inflation, and fashion chasing.
     
    The word being that you don't get a GPA boost? The thing is, that handbook I linked gave GPA boosts for an assortment of non-AP classes as well. So that isn't necessarily an obstacle. The "concomitant watering down, grade inflation, and fashion chasing" will always be a problem. The best response I can think of is setting the dis/incentives as best we can to minimize it. And the AP tests seem to me like one of the best possibilities.

    How much of your concern is along the lines of the curriculum monoculture?


    That the best minds here are still merely re-hearsing that original rationale without “noticing” how it’s played out in practice says it all about the priority you’ve placed on conserving these institutions or what they’ve traditionally taught.
     
    It would help me if you laid out your objections in more detail. In particular, what system you saw as optimal. Because all approaches have their own set of problems.

    P.S. Regarding practical issues in the present, I am much more concerned about the war on tracking and advanced classes.

    P.P.S. Agreed about the sadness over the phasing out of Industrial Arts. I don't think GPA is the only reason though.

    Replies: @Desiderius

    , @Jack D
    @Desiderius

    Everything (fashion, kitchen design, fads in schooling, etc.) starts with elites and then gets mimicked or democratized by the less elite. Once that happens, the elites have to find another trend because the original thing has lost its elite connotations. And then the cycle repeats.

    So at first, the masses were channeled into Industrial Arts and the elites did College Prep. But then the masses wanted to be college prep too - all children are above average, EVERYONE goes to college. So the elites set up AP classes so that their kids still wouldn't have to sit with the masses. If the masses were a different color, that applied double. Then the masses wanted to be in the AP classes too. So the elites have to find something else - most private school have done away with AP classes because AP now has prole associations. They offer rationales - "the AP curriculum is too rigid" but the real reason is they don't want to be associated with something that has now become declasse.

    The AP trend was (in part) driven by a high school ranking system set up by Newsweek magazine (back when news magazines still meant something). USNews had their very successful college ranking system and Newsweek knew that they had no chance in the college space. But no one was doing high school rankings (for good reason - there's no easy or good way to rank high schools - probably ranking by SAT score would work but that would lead to "racist" rankings). They hired some leftist guy who decided that the best way to rank high schools was to look to see how many AP courses they offered. Back when he started, rich white suburban schools offered a lot of AP classes and urban black schools didn't , so according to Magic Dirt logic, lots of AP courses make your school good. An the raw number of courses was easy information to gather. Whether people taking these classes got 1s or 5s was not readily available and for ideological reasons they didn't want to know that anyway. In a short time schools figured out how to game the system (offer a lot of AP courses) so that they could increase their rank. All you needed to do was offer the course - the quality of the teaching or whether the students were able to score high on the AP test (or even took the test) did not count.

    , @vhrm
    @Desiderius

    After mulling over your comments and reading and re-reading the takes of @res', @Jack D's (both of which i mostly agree with), and others i'm moderately confident that your beef is more with the "professional managerial class", the push to send more people to college, and possibly asian grinders rather than anything with the AP tests (which afaik are still fairly fair and rigorous) or even the AP classes (which, yes, are some places poorly taught).

    Anyway, like @res, i'm curious if you have any favorite ideas / proposals for reform.

    My recommendations (such as they are) would vary based on how smart the people are, how much they know what they want to do, how much money their families have, etc. but things lie
    - going to maybe a top 10 school could be worth it, but beyond that hit the State U and save money (if not rich). Maybe you can get into some honors program or get scholarships there if smart.
    - Maybe take a gap year.
    - Maybe try to do ROTC.
    - maybe enlist
    - maybe do a trade
    - maybe start in a trade and do college part time.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Desiderius

  242. @res
    @James Speaks


    If the school wants to apply quality points, then divide each student’s AP test score by 5 and apply this factor to their grade average.
     
    Interesting proposal. Seems better than the usual add a point, but I am not sure the added complexity is worth it. If we really want something more complicated though might want to make it finer grained (e.g. perhaps a C and a 5 on the AP test should be worth more than a 3 GPA, but if you are seeing results like that or As with a 1 on the test then something is wrong with the grading).

    Replies: @James Speaks

    … but if you are seeing results like that or As with a 1 on the test then something is wrong with the grading.

    As in phony?

  243. @Mike Tre
    @Jonathan Mason

    "Perhaps in future they should have two sets of everything. "

    Like continents, for example.

    Replies: @Swamp Fox

    And parents.

  244. res says:
    @Desiderius
    The original idea behind weighted classes was to offset the lower grades one could expect from the more challenging AP curriculum. At the valedictorian level this has always been less of an issue so as I said those kids were gaming it from the start - one of the things that led to the foolish phasing out of the (unweighted of course) Industrial Arts curriculum.

    Nowadays the word’s out about the non-AP traditional (community) College Prep track so the AP classes are packed to the gills (I’ve seen as many as 37) with the concomitant watering down, grade inflation, and fashion chasing.

    That the best minds here are still merely re-hearsing that original rationale without “noticing” how it’s played out in practice says it all about the priority you’ve placed on conserving these institutions or what they’ve traditionally taught.

    Replies: @res, @Jack D, @vhrm

    So your main objection is the effect the weighting of the GPAs for those classes has? (given the obvious response of the strivers) That seems reasonable. Perhaps a more nuanced approach to weighting the GPAs would help? Perhaps not–it is hard to come up with a reasonably equitable approach, and I think making one immune to gaming is impossible. Thinking about it, although not really equitable IMHO leaving the GPAs unweighted (or simply less than the likely hit to striver GPA by taking the harder class) seems like it would leave the AP classes better off in terms of only attracting the best students. (bringing things back to the current post, I do wonder what the AP grades and test scores were for the students in question. I am guessing WPHS has some heavy AP class grade inflation) Also, wouldn’t the unweighted GPA system be the past you are advocating for?

    Nowadays the word’s out about the non-AP traditional (community) College Prep track so the AP classes are packed to the gills (I’ve seen as many as 37) with the concomitant watering down, grade inflation, and fashion chasing.

    The word being that you don’t get a GPA boost? The thing is, that handbook I linked gave GPA boosts for an assortment of non-AP classes as well. So that isn’t necessarily an obstacle. The “concomitant watering down, grade inflation, and fashion chasing” will always be a problem. The best response I can think of is setting the dis/incentives as best we can to minimize it. And the AP tests seem to me like one of the best possibilities.

    How much of your concern is along the lines of the curriculum monoculture?

    That the best minds here are still merely re-hearsing that original rationale without “noticing” how it’s played out in practice says it all about the priority you’ve placed on conserving these institutions or what they’ve traditionally taught.

    It would help me if you laid out your objections in more detail. In particular, what system you saw as optimal. Because all approaches have their own set of problems.

    P.S. Regarding practical issues in the present, I am much more concerned about the war on tracking and advanced classes.

    P.P.S. Agreed about the sadness over the phasing out of Industrial Arts. I don’t think GPA is the only reason though.

    • Agree: vhrm, Desiderius
    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @res

    The word being that College Prep lands your kid in Community College given all the full-tuition Asian, development darling Legacy, and mismatched Minority competition on top of the closely related anti-white general malus.

    The myth driving the whole thing is that good life requires good school of course, but all kinds of anxieties wrapped up in that one so people loathe to look too closely. Up there with Happy Wife Happy Life in the damage done.

    Replies: @res

  245. @Desiderius
    The original idea behind weighted classes was to offset the lower grades one could expect from the more challenging AP curriculum. At the valedictorian level this has always been less of an issue so as I said those kids were gaming it from the start - one of the things that led to the foolish phasing out of the (unweighted of course) Industrial Arts curriculum.

    Nowadays the word’s out about the non-AP traditional (community) College Prep track so the AP classes are packed to the gills (I’ve seen as many as 37) with the concomitant watering down, grade inflation, and fashion chasing.

    That the best minds here are still merely re-hearsing that original rationale without “noticing” how it’s played out in practice says it all about the priority you’ve placed on conserving these institutions or what they’ve traditionally taught.

    Replies: @res, @Jack D, @vhrm

    Everything (fashion, kitchen design, fads in schooling, etc.) starts with elites and then gets mimicked or democratized by the less elite. Once that happens, the elites have to find another trend because the original thing has lost its elite connotations. And then the cycle repeats.

    So at first, the masses were channeled into Industrial Arts and the elites did College Prep. But then the masses wanted to be college prep too – all children are above average, EVERYONE goes to college. So the elites set up AP classes so that their kids still wouldn’t have to sit with the masses. If the masses were a different color, that applied double. Then the masses wanted to be in the AP classes too. So the elites have to find something else – most private school have done away with AP classes because AP now has prole associations. They offer rationales – “the AP curriculum is too rigid” but the real reason is they don’t want to be associated with something that has now become declasse.

    The AP trend was (in part) driven by a high school ranking system set up by Newsweek magazine (back when news magazines still meant something). USNews had their very successful college ranking system and Newsweek knew that they had no chance in the college space. But no one was doing high school rankings (for good reason – there’s no easy or good way to rank high schools – probably ranking by SAT score would work but that would lead to “racist” rankings). They hired some leftist guy who decided that the best way to rank high schools was to look to see how many AP courses they offered. Back when he started, rich white suburban schools offered a lot of AP classes and urban black schools didn’t , so according to Magic Dirt logic, lots of AP courses make your school good. An the raw number of courses was easy information to gather. Whether people taking these classes got 1s or 5s was not readily available and for ideological reasons they didn’t want to know that anyway. In a short time schools figured out how to game the system (offer a lot of AP courses) so that they could increase their rank. All you needed to do was offer the course – the quality of the teaching or whether the students were able to score high on the AP test (or even took the test) did not count.

    • Thanks: vhrm, Johann Ricke
  246. @J.Ross
    @Desiderius

    (((Jonathan Kay))) feels no gratitude or loyalty to his country. Quelle surprise.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Jack D

    Note that Kay positions himself in the middle, not with the crazy Left. But you and your fellow anti-Semites (and this has been true since the time of Dreyfus) want nothing to do with Jews – rather than try to lure him over closer to your position, you do your best to make him feel unwelcome in your ranks – you accuse him (without any evidence) of having no gratitude or loyalty to his country. Then you will denounce him even more if he moves closer to the people who embrace him rather than denounce him.

    • Replies: @J.Ross
    @Jack D

    Okay, that was mostly gibberish. Kay is a newspaper columnist, so he's like David Brooks but nobody has heard of him.

    , @Desiderius
    @Jack D

    The original tweet is the evidence. Don’t want to find yourselves without a chair when the music stops. Prudent to pick a side and make yourselves welcome, as you’ve traditionally done.

    The valuable are naturally valued.

    , @J.Ross
    @Jack D

    The comment is gibberish but the first sentence is especially inforgivable. He positions himself? Who the hell has the time to care what this violence-cheerimg leftist piece of filth "says" he is? Do you enjoy babble about how a communist dictator wasn't really communist?
    The bizarre faith that you can talk your way out of an entirely straightforward situation is more irritating thay the original offense. With the late Overtonning, a "centrist" is a federal courthouse arsonist in a Che shirt. Having a newspaper job is instant +9000 leftward, before you look at anything else.

  247. @anon
    @War for Blair Mountain

    You need to learn how to copy - paste a link into the Comment box.

    Now.

    Replies: @War for Blair Mountain

    You want to be spoon fed….What Battalion Commander Lieutenant Colonel Andrew Rhodes said to his White Troops is all over the internet-with commentary. So why lock readers into a specific link?

    • Replies: @anon
    @War for Blair Mountain

    You want to be spoon fed

    No.

    ...all over the internet-with commentary...

    Ok.

    Are you trolling, whoring for attention, or just retarded?

  248. @Jack D
    @J.Ross

    Note that Kay positions himself in the middle, not with the crazy Left. But you and your fellow anti-Semites (and this has been true since the time of Dreyfus) want nothing to do with Jews - rather than try to lure him over closer to your position, you do your best to make him feel unwelcome in your ranks - you accuse him (without any evidence) of having no gratitude or loyalty to his country. Then you will denounce him even more if he moves closer to the people who embrace him rather than denounce him.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Desiderius, @J.Ross

    Okay, that was mostly gibberish. Kay is a newspaper columnist, so he’s like David Brooks but nobody has heard of him.

  249. @Desiderius
    @J.Ross

    Regular Jews trapped in the same situation we are where their erstwhile leaders have gone completely off the rails and so the followers get lost in all sorts of nonsense.

    Here’s a book about gentiles doing the same thing Kay is here:

    https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/77959.Lost_in_the_Cosmos

    It’s a Western (likely human) thing. Jews have just come down with a bad case of it.

    Replies: @J.Ross

    Except that one group is influential to the other, and the other is not influential to it.

    • Disagree: Desiderius
  250. @Jack D
    @J.Ross

    Note that Kay positions himself in the middle, not with the crazy Left. But you and your fellow anti-Semites (and this has been true since the time of Dreyfus) want nothing to do with Jews - rather than try to lure him over closer to your position, you do your best to make him feel unwelcome in your ranks - you accuse him (without any evidence) of having no gratitude or loyalty to his country. Then you will denounce him even more if he moves closer to the people who embrace him rather than denounce him.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Desiderius, @J.Ross

    The original tweet is the evidence. Don’t want to find yourselves without a chair when the music stops. Prudent to pick a side and make yourselves welcome, as you’ve traditionally done.

    The valuable are naturally valued.

  251. @Calvin Hobbes
    @vhrm


    The AP classes are actually graded by the local teacher just like normal, but their curriculum for the year (though not the grading standards) would have been approved by the College Board.
     
    In my high school, the same guy (who was old when I was there) always taught Geometry, and he used an old book that followed Euclid pretty closely. The year after I took Geometry, to his dismay, the state board that certified textbooks took his book off the list of allowed textbooks. The next year he had to use a newfangled book with a very different style that he did not like. (Plus he knew how to do all the problems in the old book by heart, and he probably hated having to figure out new problems.) But then he found out that the rule about textbooks was that he had to have an approved textbook on his desk. So the next year and for some years after that, he had the new book unopened on his desk and taught out of the old book, probably until the school’s copies of the old book wore out.

    My point of this story is that rules can be circumvented if there’s not effective enforcement.

    So suppose the “AP Calculus” teacher at West Point High submits a standard “AP Calculus” curriculum to the College Board and then teaches a very different course that does not resemble the curriculum. Maybe he only covers a small fraction of what’s in “the curriculum”, or maybe he teaches Algebra 2 along with the recipes for differentiating and integrating polynomials. What then? If no one complains (maybe because his students find his course hard already and are not going to demand that he make it even harder and they appreciate their “AP class” QPA bonus points), is there any reason that could not go on indefinitely?

    Replies: @res

    What then?

    If the course is deficient then students probably do poorly on the AP tests. Whether or not anyone cares is another matter.

  252. @Jack D
    @J.Ross

    Note that Kay positions himself in the middle, not with the crazy Left. But you and your fellow anti-Semites (and this has been true since the time of Dreyfus) want nothing to do with Jews - rather than try to lure him over closer to your position, you do your best to make him feel unwelcome in your ranks - you accuse him (without any evidence) of having no gratitude or loyalty to his country. Then you will denounce him even more if he moves closer to the people who embrace him rather than denounce him.

    Replies: @J.Ross, @Desiderius, @J.Ross

    The comment is gibberish but the first sentence is especially inforgivable. He positions himself? Who the hell has the time to care what this violence-cheerimg leftist piece of filth “says” he is? Do you enjoy babble about how a communist dictator wasn’t really communist?
    The bizarre faith that you can talk your way out of an entirely straightforward situation is more irritating thay the original offense. With the late Overtonning, a “centrist” is a federal courthouse arsonist in a Che shirt. Having a newspaper job is instant +9000 leftward, before you look at anything else.

  253. @Icy Blast
    @AnotherDad

    Move to Billings. The winters are not full of Alaska-style blizzards and the summers are brutally hot.

    Replies: @Muggles

    Move to Billings. The winters are not full of Alaska-style blizzards and the summers are brutally hot.

    Have you ever lived in Montana (I have).

    Yes, summers are hot and dry but since no one wants to pay for air conditioning, they suffer.

    Maybe not “Alaska-style blizzards” but since winter comes from Canada, it’s Canadian style.

    However, most of those I went to school with still live there. So some like the weather.

  254. @Jack D
    @Paperback Writer


    The white kids are probably in academic-track classes.
     
    The school is very small - only 35 white kids per grade. You have to figure that only half are on an academic track, especially since they are mostly poor whites - almost every white with money sends his kid to the "Christian Academy" (white school) across the street. Plus nowadays blacks are not going to tolerate all white classes. And there can't be that many classes to begin with in a school with fewer than 200 kids per grade. So POSSIBLY, the academic classes are only 50% black instead of 80%. Taking from the top 50% of blacks is not good enough - only 15% of blacks have IQ greater than 100. You are not going to learn any advanced subject sitting in a HS class with 50% blacks with an average IQ of 90. Even if they are not disruptive (which is not a sure thing) the class is going to have to be taught to their level. The only reason white people would tolerate this at all is that many people in small towns in the South have remarkably low academic ambitions such that as long as the football team is good, the rest doesn't matter.

    Not all mathematical geniuses develop at the same pace, but if you read the interview with Feynman, by the end of high school he had not only taught himself calculus but was able to apply it at a very high level - devising his own proofs of fundamental laws of physics from first principles, etc.

    Replies: @Paperback Writer

    Yes, I did read the interview, and having worked w/colleagues of the great man, I knew the general story anyway.

    Feynman began teaching himself calc at about age 14 and revealed his creative genius in short order. But he didn’t start at age 11, which seems to have been your point a few comments back.

    Calc is like a form of athletics for the brain – it needs a certain muscular structure brought on by testosterone for the athletic prowess to form.

    That said, Terence Tao, the “Australian-American” mathematician, was indeed a child prodigy:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terence_Tao

    Must be something in the “Australian-American” genome….

    Sure, I agree with you about the school thing, just saying that this school isn’t the hellhole an 80% black school in the north would be. Someone else provided a link for the guidance staff. The school looks like it’s a big baby-sitting operation.

    Gonna be a helluva reckoning somewhere down the line.

  255. If the course is deficient then students probably do poorly on the AP tests. Whether or not anyone cares is another matter.

    If teacher and students and parents and principal all know that a legit AP Calc course would be too hard for the students, why would anyone complain about a Potemkin AP Calc course? The students get their QPA bonus point along with “AP Calculus” on their transcripts, and the school can brag about the high standards at the school.

  256. @Mr. Blank
    This stuff can be tricky in the South.

    Back when I was a young reporter just starting out in a small Southern farming town, I covered the local high school graduation.

    For as long as anybody could remember — heck, probably since integration — the school had named two valedictorians: A Valedictorian (who was always white), and a Minority Valedictorian (who was always black). Those were the official titles.

    The year I happened to cover the graduation, the inevitable finally happened: the “minority” with the highest GPA wasn’t black — it was a Hispanic girl. So the school named THREE valedictorians: A Valedictorian, a Minority Valedictorian, and a Black Valedictorian, a title which had been created just for the occasion. All three spoke at graduation.

    That was decades ago, but I’ve noticed that in the community I live in now — in rural Florida — none of the high schools have the traditional valedictorian and salutatorian speeches at graduations. Instead, the student speakers get vague descriptions like “inspirational speaker” and “vision speaker,” and they are always racially balanced. I assume it’s some kind of affirmative action thing, where they created an achievement that only blacks can win so that blacks are always represented, but then gave everything intentionally vague names so it wouldn’t be immediately obvious what was going on.

    The local blacks don’t seem to have any problems with this arrangement, as long as they get their awards. It’s plaques for blacks, as Tom Wolfe put it. I’ve wondered sometimes if big awards show like the Oscars will eventually try something like this, or if they’d be worried about it seeming too desperate.

    (As an aside: the old, now nearly extinct practice in the South of holding “segregated” proms — much criticized by non-Southerners — was originally driven as much by local blacks as by local whites. Back in the day, black parents got quite worked up over the thought of their kids “mixing” with whites in a romantic setting; segregated proms were originally a mutual compromise from the early days of integration. It was only later that blacks changed their minds about the practice.)

    Replies: @Charlotte, @Muggles

    Almost all of the high schooler honors students in my metropolitan suburb in Texas are Asians. A few whites, not many.

    Otherwise no POC.

    Of course the relatively good schools are the reason Asians and other skilled immigrants move out here. White kids don’t spend enough time in the library.

    Oh, and all local Spelling Bee champs are Asians, mainly South Asians.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @Muggles

    Like this?

    https://twitter.com/bog_beef/status/1403575034069848065?s=20

    C’mon, man, how much time did you spend in the library growing up?

  257. @Muggles
    @Mr. Blank

    Almost all of the high schooler honors students in my metropolitan suburb in Texas are Asians. A few whites, not many.

    Otherwise no POC.

    Of course the relatively good schools are the reason Asians and other skilled immigrants move out here. White kids don't spend enough time in the library.

    Oh, and all local Spelling Bee champs are Asians, mainly South Asians.

    Replies: @Desiderius

    Like this?

    C’mon, man, how much time did you spend in the library growing up?

    • Thanks: Calvin Hobbes
  258. @res
    @Desiderius

    But do you think AP classes and tests are what has caused that? The underlying problems include credentialism (as I think you note frequently) and grade inflation (other suggestions?). I tend to think the AP tests provide a great reality check on the grade inflation. I think AP classes are probably adversely impacted by the obvious credentialist response (they all want to take them with the resulting need to dumb down the classes and eventually the tests, see iSteve's comments about low thresholds for 5s elsewhere, with the resulting lack of ceiling), but the AP class/test system seems more like part of the solution than part of the problem to me. (this does not mean the results can't be used nefariously, see vhrm's comment I agreed with)

    The big issue I see with AP is the push towards a curriculum monoculture. But if the curriculum is good that seems more like a feature than a bug (and if not, THAT is the problem to fix). And there should be room for capable students with good teachers to go beyond the required curriculum.

    The problem is, I don't have much direct experience with this. So welcome well thought out and expressed disagreement.

    P.S. I think your comment about measuring STEM and glorified vocational school is off target. See my other comment about engineering innovation and theoretical knowledge. And that doesn't even cover the Science part!

    Replies: @anon

    But do you think AP classes and tests are what has caused that?

    He didn’t reason himself into that position, you can’t reason him out of it.

  259. @War for Blair Mountain
    @anon

    You want to be spoon fed....What Battalion Commander Lieutenant Colonel Andrew Rhodes said to his White Troops is all over the internet-with commentary. So why lock readers into a specific link?

    Replies: @anon

    You want to be spoon fed

    No.

    …all over the internet-with commentary…

    Ok.

    Are you trolling, whoring for attention, or just retarded?

  260. @Desiderius
    The original idea behind weighted classes was to offset the lower grades one could expect from the more challenging AP curriculum. At the valedictorian level this has always been less of an issue so as I said those kids were gaming it from the start - one of the things that led to the foolish phasing out of the (unweighted of course) Industrial Arts curriculum.

    Nowadays the word’s out about the non-AP traditional (community) College Prep track so the AP classes are packed to the gills (I’ve seen as many as 37) with the concomitant watering down, grade inflation, and fashion chasing.

    That the best minds here are still merely re-hearsing that original rationale without “noticing” how it’s played out in practice says it all about the priority you’ve placed on conserving these institutions or what they’ve traditionally taught.

    Replies: @res, @Jack D, @vhrm

    After mulling over your comments and reading and re-reading the takes of ’, ’s (both of which i mostly agree with), and others i’m moderately confident that your beef is more with the “professional managerial class”, the push to send more people to college, and possibly asian grinders rather than anything with the AP tests (which afaik are still fairly fair and rigorous) or even the AP classes (which, yes, are some places poorly taught).

    Anyway, like , i’m curious if you have any favorite ideas / proposals for reform.

    My recommendations (such as they are) would vary based on how smart the people are, how much they know what they want to do, how much money their families have, etc. but things lie
    – going to maybe a top 10 school could be worth it, but beyond that hit the State U and save money (if not rich). Maybe you can get into some honors program or get scholarships there if smart.
    – Maybe take a gap year.
    – Maybe try to do ROTC.
    – maybe enlist
    – maybe do a trade
    – maybe start in a trade and do college part time.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @vhrm

    Look we’re coming from the same place of course but I’m trolling you as aggressively as I can in hopes that you’ll finally open your eyes to what is right in front of your face.

    If they’re teaching CRT it doesn’t matter if it’s rigorous or poorly taught or whatever, it’s still hot garbage. And it’s not just what is being taught it’s what no longer is. As with the Bridge yeah, great there’s professional pride in building the best one you can or helping your kids get those fives but, you know, there’s a war on and your people will get killed by the cargo going over that bridge and the agitprop taught in those classes.

    You ok with that?

    And it’s nothing new, the Blooms raised the alarm over thirty years ago and it’s been nearly twenty that I saw it eating the Ivies alive.

    , @Desiderius
    @vhrm

    A less torn from the headlines example:

    AP teaching (and yes the tests drive the teaching) the "dark satanic mills" version of the Industrial Revolution (to the extent anything was taught at all) can be traced directly to the subsequent hollowing out of the stateside manufacturing base by those so carefully taught.

    Replies: @res, @vhrm

  261. @res
    @Desiderius

    So your main objection is the effect the weighting of the GPAs for those classes has? (given the obvious response of the strivers) That seems reasonable. Perhaps a more nuanced approach to weighting the GPAs would help? Perhaps not--it is hard to come up with a reasonably equitable approach, and I think making one immune to gaming is impossible. Thinking about it, although not really equitable IMHO leaving the GPAs unweighted (or simply less than the likely hit to striver GPA by taking the harder class) seems like it would leave the AP classes better off in terms of only attracting the best students. (bringing things back to the current post, I do wonder what the AP grades and test scores were for the students in question. I am guessing WPHS has some heavy AP class grade inflation) Also, wouldn't the unweighted GPA system be the past you are advocating for?


    Nowadays the word’s out about the non-AP traditional (community) College Prep track so the AP classes are packed to the gills (I’ve seen as many as 37) with the concomitant watering down, grade inflation, and fashion chasing.
     
    The word being that you don't get a GPA boost? The thing is, that handbook I linked gave GPA boosts for an assortment of non-AP classes as well. So that isn't necessarily an obstacle. The "concomitant watering down, grade inflation, and fashion chasing" will always be a problem. The best response I can think of is setting the dis/incentives as best we can to minimize it. And the AP tests seem to me like one of the best possibilities.

    How much of your concern is along the lines of the curriculum monoculture?


    That the best minds here are still merely re-hearsing that original rationale without “noticing” how it’s played out in practice says it all about the priority you’ve placed on conserving these institutions or what they’ve traditionally taught.
     
    It would help me if you laid out your objections in more detail. In particular, what system you saw as optimal. Because all approaches have their own set of problems.

    P.S. Regarding practical issues in the present, I am much more concerned about the war on tracking and advanced classes.

    P.P.S. Agreed about the sadness over the phasing out of Industrial Arts. I don't think GPA is the only reason though.

    Replies: @Desiderius

    The word being that College Prep lands your kid in Community College given all the full-tuition Asian, development darling Legacy, and mismatched Minority competition on top of the closely related anti-white general malus.

    The myth driving the whole thing is that good life requires good school of course, but all kinds of anxieties wrapped up in that one so people loathe to look too closely. Up there with Happy Wife Happy Life in the damage done.

    • Replies: @res
    @Desiderius

    Far too much truth in that first paragraph for my happiness. I think part of my understanding problem here is that you have something very specific in mind with "College Prep." Not sure if you mean it as a tier down from AP or something orthogonal which you are lamenting the loss of because of the upsurge of AP. Or ...?

    The good life requires good school idea can be trouble, but I think the effect of getting (largely) locked out of certain areas is real. I despair when I think of the competent people losing out in college admissions to the people you describe in your first paragraph. If nothing else, how must it feel to watch people who did worse than you in HS get much better college opportunities because of the color of their skin, their sex, or who their parents are?

    At this point I think the best approach for capable white men is pick a decent undergrad (e.g. most state schools), make an effort to do well there, then go for a name masters or doctorate (ideally funded). I know some people who seemed pretty happy with two years of community college followed by transfer to a solid mid-tier school, but I can't imagine doing that and coming into the middle of my STEM education with a CC background.

    Do you have any suggestions?

    Replies: @Desiderius

  262. @vhrm
    @Desiderius

    After mulling over your comments and reading and re-reading the takes of @res', @Jack D's (both of which i mostly agree with), and others i'm moderately confident that your beef is more with the "professional managerial class", the push to send more people to college, and possibly asian grinders rather than anything with the AP tests (which afaik are still fairly fair and rigorous) or even the AP classes (which, yes, are some places poorly taught).

    Anyway, like @res, i'm curious if you have any favorite ideas / proposals for reform.

    My recommendations (such as they are) would vary based on how smart the people are, how much they know what they want to do, how much money their families have, etc. but things lie
    - going to maybe a top 10 school could be worth it, but beyond that hit the State U and save money (if not rich). Maybe you can get into some honors program or get scholarships there if smart.
    - Maybe take a gap year.
    - Maybe try to do ROTC.
    - maybe enlist
    - maybe do a trade
    - maybe start in a trade and do college part time.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Desiderius

    Look we’re coming from the same place of course but I’m trolling you as aggressively as I can in hopes that you’ll finally open your eyes to what is right in front of your face.

    If they’re teaching CRT it doesn’t matter if it’s rigorous or poorly taught or whatever, it’s still hot garbage. And it’s not just what is being taught it’s what no longer is. As with the Bridge yeah, great there’s professional pride in building the best one you can or helping your kids get those fives but, you know, there’s a war on and your people will get killed by the cargo going over that bridge and the agitprop taught in those classes.

    You ok with that?

    And it’s nothing new, the Blooms raised the alarm over thirty years ago and it’s been nearly twenty that I saw it eating the Ivies alive.

  263. My hunch is that the counselor cheated, and defrauded the White kids who had earned the valedictorian and salutatorian honors, respectively, to instead give them to the black girls. (Someone here gave the link to the counselor’s picture, but the link has been killed.)

    The GPA rule had been in the school handbook for many years, and everyone knew the drill. As a commenter here suggested, the rule had probably been made that way, in order to help black kids win. In any event, it was the White kids who were cheated. (Not to mention, how much “affirmative grading” had the black girls benefited from?) The only proper way of dealing with the situation would have been to strip the black kids of their phony accomplishments… and fire the counselor.

    Why did the times “reporter” patronizingly refer to the black girls as “both standout students,” but not the White kids? And why was there nothing “joyous” in partially rectifying the racist injustice against the White kids?

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @Nicholas Stix


    Why did the times “reporter” patronizingly refer to the black girls as “both standout students,” but not the White kids?
     
    https://twitter.com/bog_beef/status/1390106211899555840?s=20

    Neo-feudalism, the real NRx
  264. What struck me the most about the story in the times was the undisguised racist hatred of over 90 percent of the commenters, the majority of whom I’m sure were White.

    They twisted everything about the matter, in order to use it against the White kids. They turned the White kids playing by the rules into them having “gamed the system.” They turned the White kids having fought for their rights into an indictment of them and their parents for a lack of grace, asserting the White winners should have “gracefully” honored the fake, black winners by not complaining. They lied in misrepresenting the matter of a teacher shortchanging the White girl on two assignments and then rectifying the matter into the girl having enjoyed “White privilege.” Oh, and you can’t give the White kids the benefit of the doubt in anything because Mississippi racism generations ago.

    Not one comment out of the 253 I read criticized the openly racist NAACP president, the racist black parents for their litigiousness, or the racist black girl who called herself “the true salutatorian” in her speech.

  265. I don’t care about who was/n’t valedictorian.

    A school’s average score on standardized tests will be scrutinized for “irregularities”, but nobody pays attention to the student records from which the transcripts are generated.

    When a crappy (of course) school is looking to showcase a student, e.g. going into college application season, a teacher will award him an A+ semester grade even if he had failed. An administrator will even go back a few years to change the kid’s final grades to all A’s.

    A school has nothing to lose by the fraud, and everything to gain. The reporters, always drunken and left-wing, will write an article about how the kid was accepted at every Ivy he applied to. The teachers/politicians will trumpet the “success” as reason to justify higher pay/taxes.

    The Ivys can continue to tout the number of valedictorians in their entering class, i.e. their own eliteness.

  266. res says:
    @Desiderius
    @res

    The word being that College Prep lands your kid in Community College given all the full-tuition Asian, development darling Legacy, and mismatched Minority competition on top of the closely related anti-white general malus.

    The myth driving the whole thing is that good life requires good school of course, but all kinds of anxieties wrapped up in that one so people loathe to look too closely. Up there with Happy Wife Happy Life in the damage done.

    Replies: @res

    Far too much truth in that first paragraph for my happiness. I think part of my understanding problem here is that you have something very specific in mind with “College Prep.” Not sure if you mean it as a tier down from AP or something orthogonal which you are lamenting the loss of because of the upsurge of AP. Or …?

    The good life requires good school idea can be trouble, but I think the effect of getting (largely) locked out of certain areas is real. I despair when I think of the competent people losing out in college admissions to the people you describe in your first paragraph. If nothing else, how must it feel to watch people who did worse than you in HS get much better college opportunities because of the color of their skin, their sex, or who their parents are?

    At this point I think the best approach for capable white men is pick a decent undergrad (e.g. most state schools), make an effort to do well there, then go for a name masters or doctorate (ideally funded). I know some people who seemed pretty happy with two years of community college followed by transfer to a solid mid-tier school, but I can’t imagine doing that and coming into the middle of my STEM education with a CC background.

    Do you have any suggestions?

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @res

    Yeah, when I was going through you had Honors for the top kids shooting for Ivy League/Stanford/Northwestern and then the regular pillars of your community took College Prep and went to the State U or equivalent which was often outstanding in its own right and prepared them for a successful career, more than affordable family formation, and leadership in the community. Then you had a regular track, a slower track, and a robust vocational system.

    As for capable white men I suspect that the systems are degrading to the point that they'll be desperate for our return sooner rather than later so whatever ways one can find to let them save face while doing that is probably your best bet. My guess is that this is why people are still in large part hanging in there with the current systems and trying to weather the storm. And yeah I've heard good things about the CC route and people are less stressed out about it now that there's a general realization that we all live in interesting times rather than it being a reflection on one's personal self worth.

    If things go the other direction and white women are shut out everything changes immediately since they've been a primary "beneficiary" and thus enabler of the status quo. The other side of the coin is that the "good schools" may have still been attracting the brightest but my sense is that it's been awhile since they've gotten the best. A lot of my younger relations going in very unconventional directions and doing well with it including starting families more readily than we did and more comfortable in own skin etc...

    Replies: @res

  267. @res
    @Desiderius

    Far too much truth in that first paragraph for my happiness. I think part of my understanding problem here is that you have something very specific in mind with "College Prep." Not sure if you mean it as a tier down from AP or something orthogonal which you are lamenting the loss of because of the upsurge of AP. Or ...?

    The good life requires good school idea can be trouble, but I think the effect of getting (largely) locked out of certain areas is real. I despair when I think of the competent people losing out in college admissions to the people you describe in your first paragraph. If nothing else, how must it feel to watch people who did worse than you in HS get much better college opportunities because of the color of their skin, their sex, or who their parents are?

    At this point I think the best approach for capable white men is pick a decent undergrad (e.g. most state schools), make an effort to do well there, then go for a name masters or doctorate (ideally funded). I know some people who seemed pretty happy with two years of community college followed by transfer to a solid mid-tier school, but I can't imagine doing that and coming into the middle of my STEM education with a CC background.

    Do you have any suggestions?

    Replies: @Desiderius

    Yeah, when I was going through you had Honors for the top kids shooting for Ivy League/Stanford/Northwestern and then the regular pillars of your community took College Prep and went to the State U or equivalent which was often outstanding in its own right and prepared them for a successful career, more than affordable family formation, and leadership in the community. Then you had a regular track, a slower track, and a robust vocational system.

    As for capable white men I suspect that the systems are degrading to the point that they’ll be desperate for our return sooner rather than later so whatever ways one can find to let them save face while doing that is probably your best bet. My guess is that this is why people are still in large part hanging in there with the current systems and trying to weather the storm. And yeah I’ve heard good things about the CC route and people are less stressed out about it now that there’s a general realization that we all live in interesting times rather than it being a reflection on one’s personal self worth.

    If things go the other direction and white women are shut out everything changes immediately since they’ve been a primary “beneficiary” and thus enabler of the status quo. The other side of the coin is that the “good schools” may have still been attracting the brightest but my sense is that it’s been awhile since they’ve gotten the best. A lot of my younger relations going in very unconventional directions and doing well with it including starting families more readily than we did and more comfortable in own skin etc…

    • Replies: @res
    @Desiderius

    Thanks for the elaboration! My experience was more along the line of four groups (I don't remember if there were explicit names). Pre-college advanced, mainstream (lower end college and some other like eventual skilled trades, maybe should split those two), robust but a bit looked down on vocational system, and doing as little as possible until graduation or dropping out. In retrospect it is sad the vocational system was looked down on. I think people who did that and took it seriously ended up in a pretty good place, but too many seemed to just see it as an easy way out.


    I suspect that the systems are degrading to the point that they’ll be desperate for our return sooner rather than later so whatever ways one can find to let them save face while doing that is probably your best bet.
     
    I hope you are right, but I am concerned. Big parts of the coalition IMHO aren't going to handle a graceful face saving approach well (e.g. imagine black representation in various areas decreasing, regardless of how it is handled), and I think people on the other side are angry enough that it will be hard to avoid some form of "I told you so." Which is the opposite of face saving ; )

    If things go the other direction and white women are shut out everything changes immediately since they’ve been a primary “beneficiary” and thus enabler of the status quo.
     
    That does seem like a big wild card. Also what effect there is as the environment affects their sons more (bad) rather than their brothers (woohoo I won the sibling rivalry) and male peers (woohoo I won the status competition).

    A lot of my younger relations going in very unconventional directions and doing well with it including starting families more readily than we did and more comfortable in own skin etc…
     
    Glad to hear that. Do the long term paths seem sustainable? Also, do they seem like the types of things you can use to build a productive society? What I mean there is along the lines of the line/staff distinction in business. One can have a very good life in staff (often better than line peons!), but at the end of the day line is what pays the bills (e.g. not everyone can be staff).

    Replies: @Desiderius

  268. See also:

    • Replies: @res
    @Desiderius

    Agreed. I commented on that here:
    https://www.unz.com/isteve/predicting-the-future-is-hard/#comment-4711916
    Note the theory on what happened in the tweet I embedded. Sounded plausible to me.

    Did you look at the paper (in French, but the graphics and tables seemed fairly comprehensible, especially with an assist from Google Translate)?

    What jumped out at me was how the trend was consistent across all parental occupational groups (see Figure 5). The children of professionals declined almost as much as the low end.

    The Twitter comments were concerned about data artifacts due to different tests over the years, but my read of the paper indicated there was a fair amount of overlap between the different versions.

    I wish they had explored those high scoring bumps in more detail.

    , @Ralph L
    @Desiderius

    I wonder what percentage of French 6th graders are genetic African/Arab now compared to 1987. Or maybe it's the higher amount of diesel exhaust fumes.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

  269. @vhrm
    @Desiderius

    After mulling over your comments and reading and re-reading the takes of @res', @Jack D's (both of which i mostly agree with), and others i'm moderately confident that your beef is more with the "professional managerial class", the push to send more people to college, and possibly asian grinders rather than anything with the AP tests (which afaik are still fairly fair and rigorous) or even the AP classes (which, yes, are some places poorly taught).

    Anyway, like @res, i'm curious if you have any favorite ideas / proposals for reform.

    My recommendations (such as they are) would vary based on how smart the people are, how much they know what they want to do, how much money their families have, etc. but things lie
    - going to maybe a top 10 school could be worth it, but beyond that hit the State U and save money (if not rich). Maybe you can get into some honors program or get scholarships there if smart.
    - Maybe take a gap year.
    - Maybe try to do ROTC.
    - maybe enlist
    - maybe do a trade
    - maybe start in a trade and do college part time.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Desiderius

    A less torn from the headlines example:

    AP teaching (and yes the tests drive the teaching) the “dark satanic mills” version of the Industrial Revolution (to the extent anything was taught at all) can be traced directly to the subsequent hollowing out of the stateside manufacturing base by those so carefully taught.

    • Replies: @res
    @Desiderius

    Good example. That seems more like a negative instance of curriculum monoculture than other aspects of AP to me though. There the problem with AP is it gives a single point to effect national change. The traditional way of achieving the agenda you describe was through school books which are selected locally. Though that seems to be trending the same way (fewer options, and all increasingly woke).

    , @vhrm
    @Desiderius


    AP teaching (and yes the tests drive the teaching) the “dark satanic mills” version of the Industrial Revolution (to the extent anything was taught at all) can be traced directly to the subsequent hollowing out of the stateside manufacturing base by those so carefully taught.
     
    I'm sorry but this is several bridges too far. The people responsible for hollowing out stateside manufacturing were in highschool when? 60s? 70s? Maybe early 80s. Even a couple of decades later the AP US History and AP Euro History seemed pretty traditional and balanced. And being history classes back then they probably stopped around WW2. Those people's experience of American industry and labor was probably largely positive.

    In any case, the people who hollowed things out got whatever ideas they got in Business School, and MAYBE their upper level undergrad education, if they majored in Econ or something. What they learned in HS (AP classes) had little to do with it.

    Also, the Dickensian Industrial Revolution was a real thing and people hated it. We've just seen it again in China over the past 25 years and people hated it and are introducing better safety and lifestyle standards there too which is why the cheapest industry has been moving out of there too.

    Replies: @Desiderius

  270. res says:
    @Desiderius
    @res

    Yeah, when I was going through you had Honors for the top kids shooting for Ivy League/Stanford/Northwestern and then the regular pillars of your community took College Prep and went to the State U or equivalent which was often outstanding in its own right and prepared them for a successful career, more than affordable family formation, and leadership in the community. Then you had a regular track, a slower track, and a robust vocational system.

    As for capable white men I suspect that the systems are degrading to the point that they'll be desperate for our return sooner rather than later so whatever ways one can find to let them save face while doing that is probably your best bet. My guess is that this is why people are still in large part hanging in there with the current systems and trying to weather the storm. And yeah I've heard good things about the CC route and people are less stressed out about it now that there's a general realization that we all live in interesting times rather than it being a reflection on one's personal self worth.

    If things go the other direction and white women are shut out everything changes immediately since they've been a primary "beneficiary" and thus enabler of the status quo. The other side of the coin is that the "good schools" may have still been attracting the brightest but my sense is that it's been awhile since they've gotten the best. A lot of my younger relations going in very unconventional directions and doing well with it including starting families more readily than we did and more comfortable in own skin etc...

    Replies: @res

    Thanks for the elaboration! My experience was more along the line of four groups (I don’t remember if there were explicit names). Pre-college advanced, mainstream (lower end college and some other like eventual skilled trades, maybe should split those two), robust but a bit looked down on vocational system, and doing as little as possible until graduation or dropping out. In retrospect it is sad the vocational system was looked down on. I think people who did that and took it seriously ended up in a pretty good place, but too many seemed to just see it as an easy way out.

    I suspect that the systems are degrading to the point that they’ll be desperate for our return sooner rather than later so whatever ways one can find to let them save face while doing that is probably your best bet.

    I hope you are right, but I am concerned. Big parts of the coalition IMHO aren’t going to handle a graceful face saving approach well (e.g. imagine black representation in various areas decreasing, regardless of how it is handled), and I think people on the other side are angry enough that it will be hard to avoid some form of “I told you so.” Which is the opposite of face saving ; )

    If things go the other direction and white women are shut out everything changes immediately since they’ve been a primary “beneficiary” and thus enabler of the status quo.

    That does seem like a big wild card. Also what effect there is as the environment affects their sons more (bad) rather than their brothers (woohoo I won the sibling rivalry) and male peers (woohoo I won the status competition).

    A lot of my younger relations going in very unconventional directions and doing well with it including starting families more readily than we did and more comfortable in own skin etc…

    Glad to hear that. Do the long term paths seem sustainable? Also, do they seem like the types of things you can use to build a productive society? What I mean there is along the lines of the line/staff distinction in business. One can have a very good life in staff (often better than line peons!), but at the end of the day line is what pays the bills (e.g. not everyone can be staff).

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @res

    Feel like they’re line in a fundamental way that I never even considered but should have. Then again staff can very much muck up line (and are as we speak!) so it’s not like we can just abandon it. To some extent the fix we’re in is a direct result of the best already doing so and letting the worst run hog wild.

    As for face saving they’re already doing it on the Sexual Revolution roll-back. When the monoculture gets it right for a change it is a handy thing to have around.

  271. res says:
    @Desiderius
    @vhrm

    A less torn from the headlines example:

    AP teaching (and yes the tests drive the teaching) the "dark satanic mills" version of the Industrial Revolution (to the extent anything was taught at all) can be traced directly to the subsequent hollowing out of the stateside manufacturing base by those so carefully taught.

    Replies: @res, @vhrm

    Good example. That seems more like a negative instance of curriculum monoculture than other aspects of AP to me though. There the problem with AP is it gives a single point to effect national change. The traditional way of achieving the agenda you describe was through school books which are selected locally. Though that seems to be trending the same way (fewer options, and all increasingly woke).

  272. @Nicholas Stix
    My hunch is that the counselor cheated, and defrauded the White kids who had earned the valedictorian and salutatorian honors, respectively, to instead give them to the black girls. (Someone here gave the link to the counselor’s picture, but the link has been killed.)

    The GPA rule had been in the school handbook for many years, and everyone knew the drill. As a commenter here suggested, the rule had probably been made that way, in order to help black kids win. In any event, it was the White kids who were cheated. (Not to mention, how much “affirmative grading” had the black girls benefited from?) The only proper way of dealing with the situation would have been to strip the black kids of their phony accomplishments… and fire the counselor.

    Why did the times “reporter” patronizingly refer to the black girls as “both standout students,” but not the White kids? And why was there nothing “joyous” in partially rectifying the racist injustice against the White kids?

    Replies: @Desiderius

    Why did the times “reporter” patronizingly refer to the black girls as “both standout students,” but not the White kids?

    Neo-feudalism, the real NRx

  273. res says:
    @Desiderius
    See also:

    https://twitter.com/Outsideness/status/1402514183049023492?s=20

    Replies: @res, @Ralph L

    Agreed. I commented on that here:
    https://www.unz.com/isteve/predicting-the-future-is-hard/#comment-4711916
    Note the theory on what happened in the tweet I embedded. Sounded plausible to me.

    Did you look at the paper (in French, but the graphics and tables seemed fairly comprehensible, especially with an assist from Google Translate)?

    What jumped out at me was how the trend was consistent across all parental occupational groups (see Figure 5). The children of professionals declined almost as much as the low end.

    The Twitter comments were concerned about data artifacts due to different tests over the years, but my read of the paper indicated there was a fair amount of overlap between the different versions.

    I wish they had explored those high scoring bumps in more detail.

  274. @Desiderius
    See also:

    https://twitter.com/Outsideness/status/1402514183049023492?s=20

    Replies: @res, @Ralph L

    I wonder what percentage of French 6th graders are genetic African/Arab now compared to 1987. Or maybe it’s the higher amount of diesel exhaust fumes.

    • Replies: @Reg Cæsar
    @Ralph L


    I wonder what percentage of French 6th graders are genetic African/Arab now compared to 1987. Or maybe it’s the higher amount of diesel exhaust fumes.
     
    Or worse.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=6tqFLFjuKFs

  275. @res
    @Desiderius

    Thanks for the elaboration! My experience was more along the line of four groups (I don't remember if there were explicit names). Pre-college advanced, mainstream (lower end college and some other like eventual skilled trades, maybe should split those two), robust but a bit looked down on vocational system, and doing as little as possible until graduation or dropping out. In retrospect it is sad the vocational system was looked down on. I think people who did that and took it seriously ended up in a pretty good place, but too many seemed to just see it as an easy way out.


    I suspect that the systems are degrading to the point that they’ll be desperate for our return sooner rather than later so whatever ways one can find to let them save face while doing that is probably your best bet.
     
    I hope you are right, but I am concerned. Big parts of the coalition IMHO aren't going to handle a graceful face saving approach well (e.g. imagine black representation in various areas decreasing, regardless of how it is handled), and I think people on the other side are angry enough that it will be hard to avoid some form of "I told you so." Which is the opposite of face saving ; )

    If things go the other direction and white women are shut out everything changes immediately since they’ve been a primary “beneficiary” and thus enabler of the status quo.
     
    That does seem like a big wild card. Also what effect there is as the environment affects their sons more (bad) rather than their brothers (woohoo I won the sibling rivalry) and male peers (woohoo I won the status competition).

    A lot of my younger relations going in very unconventional directions and doing well with it including starting families more readily than we did and more comfortable in own skin etc…
     
    Glad to hear that. Do the long term paths seem sustainable? Also, do they seem like the types of things you can use to build a productive society? What I mean there is along the lines of the line/staff distinction in business. One can have a very good life in staff (often better than line peons!), but at the end of the day line is what pays the bills (e.g. not everyone can be staff).

    Replies: @Desiderius

    Feel like they’re line in a fundamental way that I never even considered but should have. Then again staff can very much muck up line (and are as we speak!) so it’s not like we can just abandon it. To some extent the fix we’re in is a direct result of the best already doing so and letting the worst run hog wild.

    As for face saving they’re already doing it on the Sexual Revolution roll-back. When the monoculture gets it right for a change it is a handy thing to have around.

  276. This whole class rank thing is a big load of crap, anyhow.

    Any metropolitan, non-small skool district is going to be home to highly educated and competitive parents who, wanting their kid to take a first, will invest their personal time and effort in that goal. That includes actions such as:

    • Explaining difficult material (non-advantaged students have to grasp the poorly taught material by themselves).

    • Calling the principal in order to have him intervene to reverse a 1pt markdown on their kid’s test.

    • Hiring private tutors.

    • Closely editing their kids Eng!ish papers, if not writing them altogether.

    They must be so proud to see their kid’s hard work and dedication recognized at graduation.

    To the kids in the second 5%, whose parents, for whatever reason, weren’t so involved they so sympathetically say “At least you made the honor society. Keep trying.”

  277. @Alden
    @Achmed E. Newman

    Furreners are all like Jonathan, including my English relatives. One mentioned the math homework my son was doing as more advanced than the same grade level in the English system.

    But then he just had to say that “ of course they don’t teach it to the black kids do they?”

    So I explained all schools use the same books from the same publishers. Same teacher education training, and same State department of education curriculum mandates for every school private and public in the state. He was astonished.

    The English and Germans are the worst. They still think barefoot black kids are picking cotton in Chicago Detroit and NYC January blizzards.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    So I explained all schools use the same books from the same publishers. Same teacher education training, and same State department of education curriculum mandates for every school private and public in the state. He was astonished.

    So am I. This sounds more like France than anywhere in America.

    The Minister of National Education looks at his watch and knows which page of which text every nine-year-old in the land is reading.

    Or did. There is more variation in the system today, and even homeschooling is allowed, under the watchful œil of l’état.

  278. @Ralph L
    @Desiderius

    I wonder what percentage of French 6th graders are genetic African/Arab now compared to 1987. Or maybe it's the higher amount of diesel exhaust fumes.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    I wonder what percentage of French 6th graders are genetic African/Arab now compared to 1987. Or maybe it’s the higher amount of diesel exhaust fumes.

    Or worse.

  279. @Buffalo Joe
    @Flemur

    Flemur, thank you. Traqundus Boyd. And I took four years of Latin, where do they get these names. And willing to bet that some lil chile is goin be birth named Valedictorian or Salutatorian only with some apostrphes and hyphens.

    Replies: @Reg Cæsar

    And willing to bet that some lil chile is goin be birth named Valedictorian or Salutatorian only with some apostrphes and hyphens.

    And the hyphen will survive longer than the hymen.

  280. @Desiderius
    @vhrm

    A less torn from the headlines example:

    AP teaching (and yes the tests drive the teaching) the "dark satanic mills" version of the Industrial Revolution (to the extent anything was taught at all) can be traced directly to the subsequent hollowing out of the stateside manufacturing base by those so carefully taught.

    Replies: @res, @vhrm

    AP teaching (and yes the tests drive the teaching) the “dark satanic mills” version of the Industrial Revolution (to the extent anything was taught at all) can be traced directly to the subsequent hollowing out of the stateside manufacturing base by those so carefully taught.

    I’m sorry but this is several bridges too far. The people responsible for hollowing out stateside manufacturing were in highschool when? 60s? 70s? Maybe early 80s. Even a couple of decades later the AP US History and AP Euro History seemed pretty traditional and balanced. And being history classes back then they probably stopped around WW2. Those people’s experience of American industry and labor was probably largely positive.

    In any case, the people who hollowed things out got whatever ideas they got in Business School, and MAYBE their upper level undergrad education, if they majored in Econ or something. What they learned in HS (AP classes) had little to do with it.

    Also, the Dickensian Industrial Revolution was a real thing and people hated it. We’ve just seen it again in China over the past 25 years and people hated it and are introducing better safety and lifestyle standards there too which is why the cheapest industry has been moving out of there too.

    • Disagree: Desiderius
    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @vhrm

    It would be hard to be more mistaken. I've seen it from the corporate end, the schooling end, and the test prep end. Only thing I'm missing is the last five years or so where I've been preoccupied with a new family and organ transplants and the like.

    As I've said it's obvious you've been preoccupied with form and completely out to lunch on content.

    No time like the present to get started repairing the damage.

    Replies: @vhrm

  281. @vhrm
    @Desiderius


    AP teaching (and yes the tests drive the teaching) the “dark satanic mills” version of the Industrial Revolution (to the extent anything was taught at all) can be traced directly to the subsequent hollowing out of the stateside manufacturing base by those so carefully taught.
     
    I'm sorry but this is several bridges too far. The people responsible for hollowing out stateside manufacturing were in highschool when? 60s? 70s? Maybe early 80s. Even a couple of decades later the AP US History and AP Euro History seemed pretty traditional and balanced. And being history classes back then they probably stopped around WW2. Those people's experience of American industry and labor was probably largely positive.

    In any case, the people who hollowed things out got whatever ideas they got in Business School, and MAYBE their upper level undergrad education, if they majored in Econ or something. What they learned in HS (AP classes) had little to do with it.

    Also, the Dickensian Industrial Revolution was a real thing and people hated it. We've just seen it again in China over the past 25 years and people hated it and are introducing better safety and lifestyle standards there too which is why the cheapest industry has been moving out of there too.

    Replies: @Desiderius

    It would be hard to be more mistaken. I’ve seen it from the corporate end, the schooling end, and the test prep end. Only thing I’m missing is the last five years or so where I’ve been preoccupied with a new family and organ transplants and the like.

    As I’ve said it’s obvious you’ve been preoccupied with form and completely out to lunch on content.

    No time like the present to get started repairing the damage.

    • Replies: @vhrm
    @Desiderius


    As I’ve said it’s obvious you’ve been preoccupied with form and completely out to lunch on content.
     
    Mistaken about what? I made several claims and you're response is, basically "nah man... i've SEEN things". That's ok in that you're under no duty to justify yourself or maybe you're busy or whatever, but i just can't see how your claims can make sense.

    To me they look entirely anachronistic, like if you were talking about the impact of F-18s in the Battle of the Bulge, or how cyberwarfare turned the tide in the Civil War.

    Maybe you're playing 4d history chess here and this stuff is obvious to you, but to me your claims are rather extraordinary.
  282. @Charlotte
    @Mr. Blank


    the old, now nearly extinct practice in the South of holding “segregated” proms — much criticized by non-Southerners — was originally driven as much by local blacks as by local whites. Back in the day, black parents got quite worked up over the thought of their kids “mixing” with whites in a romantic setting
     
    Were they opposed because they didn’t like the idea of their child with a white person, or because they worried the situation would cause trouble with the local whites? Or was it both?

    Replies: @Neil Templeton

    As my grandma used to say: “East is East and West is West, and ne’er the ‘twain shall meet.”

    • Replies: @Abolish_public_education
    @Neil Templeton

    Your grandmother was Kipling?

    From wiki:

    “The Ballad of East and West" is a poem by Rudyard Kipling. It was first published in 1889, and has been much collected and anthologised since.

    Replies: @Neil Templeton

  283. I bet the ‘error’ was no mistake.

  284. @Desiderius
    @vhrm

    It would be hard to be more mistaken. I've seen it from the corporate end, the schooling end, and the test prep end. Only thing I'm missing is the last five years or so where I've been preoccupied with a new family and organ transplants and the like.

    As I've said it's obvious you've been preoccupied with form and completely out to lunch on content.

    No time like the present to get started repairing the damage.

    Replies: @vhrm

    As I’ve said it’s obvious you’ve been preoccupied with form and completely out to lunch on content.

    Mistaken about what? I made several claims and you’re response is, basically “nah man… i’ve SEEN things”. That’s ok in that you’re under no duty to justify yourself or maybe you’re busy or whatever, but i just can’t see how your claims can make sense.

    To me they look entirely anachronistic, like if you were talking about the impact of F-18s in the Battle of the Bulge, or how cyberwarfare turned the tide in the Civil War.

    Maybe you’re playing 4d history chess here and this stuff is obvious to you, but to me your claims are rather extraordinary.

  285. @El Dato

    Then Came the Calls for a Recount.
     
    Then Came the Calls for Reparations.

    Then Came the Calls for Equity.

    Then Came the Calls for D.I.E.

    At first, it seemed a joyous occasion.
     
    Little did the know that the Virus of Racism was in the room.

    And in the nearly three weeks since that senior awards night, West Point, a mostly Black town in the northeastern part of the state, has been split largely along racial lines, roiled by a dispute that included threats, a potential lawsuit and allegations of racism posted on Facebook.
     
    Facebook, I tell you! It's practically a new Tulsa Holocaust. All that's missing are nooses randomly appearing on construction sites. That would blow the powder keg.

    In Mississippi, where some public schools once defied federal orders to admit Black students and issues of educational equity are still raw,...
     
    We will be reminded of this original sin against Panos The Magnificent till BLACKS inhert the Earth (which is their rightful heritage).

    In the past five years, Black women in Cleveland, Miss., about 150 miles away, have twice filed federal lawsuits alleging they had been cheated in their school’s selection of valedictorian and salutatorian.
     
    "The outbreaks of Racist School Virus are being observed inside an area with a radius of at least 150 miles. Call the CDC!"

    Replies: @Getaclue

    NYSlimes? Publishers are Irish aren’t they?

  286. @TontoBubbaGoldstein
    The comments at the Times are a hoot!!

    With all the fluff and extraneous info in the article it was somewhat difficult to tell what happened. It seems that many schools weigh GPAs in AP courses heavier than GPA in other courses, but this school does not. (I'll leave it to the gentle reader to theorize on why this would be the case in a mostly black school...)
    It should go without saying that the awards go to the people who qualify for them based on the specified criteria, but this seems very difficult for some.
    This year, the schools criteria, which was set up to favor black students...hiccupped and produced a white Valedictorian and Salutatorian; so the school changed the criteria to ensure the young black ladies won.
    In fairness, I think the system that rewarded the two black students is the fairer system. Too bad the school wasn't using it.

    Replies: @Colin Wright, @Getaclue

    Don’t really find anything the NYSlimes does “a hoot” — they are dedicated to pushing hatred against “White” people and do so on a daily basis — the Tribal Publishers have been a cancer on the USA for many decades (as is much of the Mainslime Media run by the same group). This is what they want to happen to “White” people by the lies they push daily toward causing hatred against “White” people — quite “a hoot”?:

    https://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2021/06/14-year-old-fargo-nd-girl-violently-beaten-strangled-stabbed-death-stranger-skateboarding/

    Why do they do this? Here, let them tell you themselves!:


  287. @Neil Templeton
    @Charlotte

    As my grandma used to say: "East is East and West is West, and ne'er the 'twain shall meet."

    Replies: @Abolish_public_education

    Your grandmother was Kipling?

    From wiki:

    “The Ballad of East and West” is a poem by Rudyard Kipling. It was first published in 1889, and has been much collected and anthologised since.

    • Replies: @Neil Templeton
    @Abolish_public_education

    No, but obviously she got it from Kipling. Once upon a time that would be considered a compliment.

  288. @Abolish_public_education
    @Neil Templeton

    Your grandmother was Kipling?

    From wiki:

    “The Ballad of East and West" is a poem by Rudyard Kipling. It was first published in 1889, and has been much collected and anthologised since.

    Replies: @Neil Templeton

    No, but obviously she got it from Kipling. Once upon a time that would be considered a compliment.

  289. res says:

    Mississippi Today is sticking with this story.

    https://mississippitoday.org/2021/06/14/west-point-valedictorian-dispute-school-board/
    West Point parents to address valedictorian concerns with school board

    From yesterday:
    https://mississippitoday.org/2021/06/16/west-point-high-school-valedictorian-officials-decision/
    West Point school officials double down on valedictorian decision after review

    The West Point Consolidated School District School Board reviewed and verified that the procedure used to select two white students as valedictorian and salutatorian is the same it used each year in the prior six years, according to a statement released Tuesday by the district.

    The district also said it stands by its decision to award the honors to all four students.

    Here is the statement description of the selection method.

    “The handbook states that class rank will be determined by semester averages which is the procedure followed for many years,” the statement continued. “The School Board has reviewed and verified that for the last six years class rank has been based on the 100 scale average. However, this year when the first Valedictorian and Salutatorian were announced, the selection was not based on the 100 scale, but instead it was based on the 4.0 scale.”

    Reading that again and revisiting the table on pages 21-22 of the Harrison County, MS handbook I linked above (WPHS is in Clay County, but I am guessing the conventions are similar)
    https://www.harrison.k12.ms.us/UserFiles/Servers/Server_88227/File/HCSD/Docs/SECONDARY%20HANDBOOK.pdf

    I’m not sure if the issue is the weighting we have discussed or maybe some strange artifact of how they map the 0-100 scale to the 0-4.0 scale. In the table 100 maps to 4.0 while 91 maps to 3.1. Could there be some strangeness where WPHS mapped 91 to A to 4.0?

    I guess if this goes to court we will find out. It is amazing how despite all the attention this got no one seems to have effectively articulated the difference between the methods.

    • Agree: vhrm

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