The Unz Review • An Alternative Media Selection
A Collection of Interesting, Important, and Controversial Perspectives Largely Excluded from the American Mainstream Media
 TeasersiSteve Blog
Henry Aaron, RIP
Email This Page to Someone

 Remember My Information



=>

Bookmark Toggle AllToCAdd to LibraryRemove from Library • BShow CommentNext New CommentNext New ReplyRead More
ReplyAgree/Disagree/Etc. More... This Commenter This Thread Hide Thread Display All Comments
AgreeDisagreeThanksLOLTroll
These buttons register your public Agreement, Disagreement, Thanks, LOL, or Troll with the selected comment. They are ONLY available to recent, frequent commenters who have saved their Name+Email using the 'Remember My Information' checkbox, and may also ONLY be used three times during any eight hour period.
Ignore Commenter Follow Commenter
Search Text Case Sensitive  Exact Words  Include Comments
List of Bookmarks

Another baseball great has died. Home run champion Hammerin’ Hank Aaron, who broke Babe Ruth’s career homer record in 1974, died at 86. No cause of death has been given (0ther than being 86). Aaron had himself publicly inoculated with the Moderna vaccine on January 5.

Aaron trailed the slightly older and more famous Willie Mays in home runs for most of his career. But when the Milwaukee Braves moved to Atlanta in 1966, after the signing of the Civil Rights Act of 1964, the previously somewhat overlooked Aaron benefited from moving from a pitcher’s park to a hitter’s park and posted huge numbers in his later 30s.

Eventually, Aaron’s homer record was broken by Barry Bonds after he got tired of so much publicity going to lesser players who were clearly on the juice like McGwire and Sosa, and decided to show what a great player could do with the aid of modern pharmaceuticals. Aaron was unenthusiastic about Bonds’ feat.

Aaron still holds the all-time career records for runs-batted-in and for total bases. The man could hit.

 
Hide 278 CommentsLeave a Comment
Commenters to Ignore...to FollowEndorsed Only
Trim Comments?
  1. An awesome and superlative baseball player!

    • Agree: JimDandy, Desiderius
    • Replies: @Getaclue
    @Michelle

    Took the CVirus "vaccine" about 2 weeks ago....Unlike Covid and Car Crashes and bullet wounds...no correlation of course....Amerika

    , @Ben tillman
    @Michelle

    I saw him play once or twice in 1973. Darrell Evans is not that surprising, but how Dave’s Johnson hit 40 homers that year?

  2. “Aaron had himself publicly inoculated with the Moderna vaccine on January 5.”

    Wuflu vaccines are working like magic.

    • Thanks: Je Suis Omar Mateen, Dumbo
    • Replies: @Morton's toes
    @BB753

    This is like the greatest throwaway statistic on wikipedia. From Tommie Aaron's (d. 1984) page.


    Aaron hit a total of 13 major league home runs, with eight of them coming in his first year of 1962. Along with his brother's then Major League record 755, they hold the Major League record for the most career home runs by two brothers (768).
     

    Replies: @Anon, @Prester John, @I, Libertine

    , @Dumbo
    @BB753


    "It was supposed to be used to inspire African-Americans to take the vaccine. Two weeks after taking it, he has died."

     

    https://noqreport.com/2021/01/22/mlb-legend-hank-aaron-dies-two-weeks-after-getting-covid-19-vaccine/

    Well... Of course "correlation is not causation", but I guess this won't "inspire" many African-Americans to take it...

  3. Big City media bias and East Coast media bias. Reminds me of what happened to Robin Yount. Yount played on the obscure Brewers his entire career, and despite winning multiple MVP awards and being an outstanding athlete for decades (went from Gold Glove-caliber shortstop to Gold Glove-caliber centerfielder), could walk into any room on the East Coast and not be recognized. If Yount had played in a big media market, especially on the East Coast, he’d be celebrated as one of the greatest athletes of the 20th Century.

    Anyway, Bonds had to cheat heavily to beat Aaron, much like Biden did with Trump. That’s all you need to know about how great Aaron’s numbers were. As Reggie Jackson said, if you tried to beat Aaron’s homerun record by hitting 35 year for 20 years, you’d still be 55 short. Aaron is still the all-time homerun king.

    Also, funny story about Aaron: he grew up hitting “cross-handed”. He would bat right-handed as a kid, but his left hand would be on top of his right hand when he swung, instead of the natural other way around (try it on yourself to see how awkward it is). Someone got in his ear as a teen/early 20s and got him to switch his hands up so his right hand was on top of his left, but still kept him batting right handed.

    In his autobio I read as a kid, Aaron wondered why no one ever just turned him around and made him bat left-handed, which would have gotten rid of his cross-handedness and also given him the left-handed batter’s advantage.

    But I think Aaron did ok, doncha think? He’s one of those top 6 -7outfielders kids argue about putting on the all-time team they have in their minds (Cobb, Ruth, Williams, Musial, Mays, Aaron + whatever outfielder the kid particularly idolizes). RIP.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @R.G. Camara

    I don't have any evidence that Aaron ever touched PEDs, but pitcher Tom House, who was on the Braves from 1971-1975, admits to juicing.

    Steroid use was more erratic and regional back then so it's hard to say for sure. In baseball, it clearly went up in the 1990s, suggesting most ballplayers weren't using up through the 1980s.

    But I'd guess that a lot of famous athletes in Southern California around 50 years ago at least tried them. E.g., Wilt Chamberlain added 40 pounds of muscle after being traded to LA in 1968 and spending the summer at Muscle Beach with the bodybuilders. Would Wilt, who was curious and easily bored and always looking for a new self-improvement project, have tried this drug his new friends at Muscle Beach swore by? Sure. Would O.J. Simpson have tried what the weight men on his USC track and field team recommended? I've never heard anything about OJ and steroids, but the thought isn't exactly shocking. How about Don Sutton? His nickname was "Black & Decker" for scuffing the ball. Would he try a few pills? I dunno.

    Replies: @Mike Tre, @R.G. Camara, @Nicholas Stix, @Anon, @ScarletNumber

    , @Trinity
    @R.G. Camara

    Aaron definitely suffered by playing in a small market at the time TO A DEGREE, of course Atlanta has grown exponentially since Aaron left to play his final 2 seasons in Milwaukee in 1975-76. Atlanta probably had a metro area of slightly more than 2 million people during Aaron's playing days in the city, and it has nearly tripled in population since then. Still it suffers from being a Southern city because of a history of Northeastern/Boston-Washington corridor and West Coast bias. Hell even Philadelphia, Baltimore and D.C. suffer from New York bias and to a lesser degree from stuffy Boston fans and newspapers. Atlanta is on the same level as Washington, Philly, Boston, Houston, Dallas, and Miami now, but you would never know it listening to the media, hell it could be a level above Boston and Philly. It has hosted the Olympics, has one of the world's largest and busiest airports, a skyline that is every bit as impressive if not more so than Dallas, Miami,Philly, and definitely more impressive than Boston and Atlanta has 16 companies based here in Fortune 500. Not exactly the overgrown cow town it was when Aaron played here.

    Aaron's home run record has a lot to do with his length of stay, the amount of plate appearances and at bats, it has already been mentioned that Aaron never hit more than 47 home runs in a single season whereas Ruth topped out at 61 home runs in a 154 game season, Mays hit 52 home runs for a high, Ted Williams spent some of his prime years in the military and while he topped out at 43 homers for a season high, his career batting average was .344 to Aaron's .305. Teddy only batted 7,706 plus times and managed 521 home runs where it took Aaron 12, 364 at bats to reach 755 home runs. Mickey Mantle? Mantle had 8,102 at bats and finished with 536 homers and topped over 50 hrs in a single season twice. Lest we forget Mantle played a good deal of his career with a bum leg as well. Babe Ruth? Hit over 50 homers 4 times in his career, his high was 61 for a season, a record that stood for a long time until Roger Maris took 162 game season to break it. Ruth only batted 8,399 times to Aaron's 12,364 times at bat, that is roughly 4,000 more at bats than Ruth had but he only bested the Bambino's record by 755-714, a mere 41 home runs. Aaron was never the all around player that a prime Mickey Mantle or Willie Mays were, and that his lack of coverage had as much to do with that as his playing in the Deep South and a small market at the time. To be honest as great as Aaron was, his numbers are below Williams, Ruth, Mantle, Mays and steroid Barry Bonds.

    Replies: @woody weaver, @Dr. DoomNGloom, @AceDeuce, @Anon

    , @Ed Case
    @R.G. Camara

    What happened there, in my opinion, was that Hank Aaron was a natural left hander who was discouraged from LH dominance as an infant.
    That was common child rearing practice until at least the 1960s.
    So the first time he picked up a bat or a hockey stick, he would've had his right hand high and his left hand low, even though he was looking over his left shoulder.
    There was a Professional Golfer in Africa [Kenya, Rhodesia?]who swung that way, he had success in the 1960s, I think?

    Replies: @Ed Case

    , @Desiderius
    @R.G. Camara

    Having taught myself the shoot basketball left-handed after blowing out my right arm throwing too many early curveballs my suspicion is that Aaron's crosshanded training ended up being to his benefit in the long run. Helped him get a feel for how to generate maximal leverage at the point of contact.

    , @AceDeuce
    @R.G. Camara

    Aaron needed 4000 more at bats than Ruth to hit 41 more home runs. His career batting average was 37 points lower than Ruth's. Ruth was a HOF-caliber pitcher in addition to his other exploits. Aaron was in two World Series, winning one. Ruth was in 10, winning 7, and his personal postseason stats were among the best ever.

    Replies: @R.G. Camara

    , @E. Rekshun
    @R.G. Camara

    He’s one of those top 6 -7 outfielders kids argue about putting on the all-time team they have in their minds (Cobb, Ruth, Williams, Musial, Mays, Aaron + whatever outfielder the kid particularly idolizes).

    Yaz.

    , @kaganovitch
    @R.G. Camara

    Big City media bias and East Coast media bias. Reminds me of what happened to Robin Yount. Yount played on the obscure Brewers his entire career, and despite winning multiple MVP awards and being an outstanding athlete for decades (went from Gold Glove-caliber shortstop to Gold Glove-caliber centerfielder), could walk into any room on the East Coast and not be recognized. If Yount had played in a big media market, especially on the East Coast, he’d be celebrated as one of the greatest athletes of the 20th Century.

    While Yount was indeed a great player, he was hardly one of the greatest athletes of the 20th century. As I think I mentioned the last time he came up ,(perhaps Lou Brock thread?) he was hardly a Gold Glove CF. Defensive WAR stats rate him poorly as a CF, with a cumulative 6 losses above replacement as a CF. Statistically he was not quite as good as Cal Ripken. Around even offensively, much worse defensively. Cal Ripken--East Coaster though he was-- in turn , would not be nearly as well known absent the consecutive games played record.

    Replies: @R.G. Camara

    , @Truth
    @R.G. Camara


    Anyway, Bonds had to cheat heavily to beat Aaron, much like Biden did with Trump.
     
    "Cheating" is relative. Did Ruth "cheat" by not having to compete against Josh Gibson (whom many people in the era said was better)? Did he cheat by denying his (alleged) black heritage? Was Mickey Mantle an early juicer (which is a theory)? Would Barry have broken the HR record without the juice? Highly doubtful, but he was the best player in the game when everyone was clean, and he would have put a few pounds on naturally and not suffered so many injuries, so who knows?
  4. Anonymous[857] • Disclaimer says:

    No cause of death has been given (0ther than being 86). Aaron had himself publicly inoculated with the Moderna vaccine on January 5.

    So he dies just 2 weeks after getting the vaccine? Hard to believe it was just a coincidence. If he was suffering from a terminal illness it would have been mentioned at the public inoculation, no?

    • Agree: Paul Jolliffe
  5. He’s a true home town hero. Probably going to the local stadium named after him later this yr for an event with my daughter….

  6. @BB753
    "Aaron had himself publicly inoculated with the Moderna vaccine on January 5."

    Wuflu vaccines are working like magic.

    Replies: @Morton's toes, @Dumbo

    This is like the greatest throwaway statistic on wikipedia. From Tommie Aaron’s (d. 1984) page.

    Aaron hit a total of 13 major league home runs, with eight of them coming in his first year of 1962. Along with his brother’s then Major League record 755, they hold the Major League record for the most career home runs by two brothers (768).

    • Replies: @Anon
    @Morton's toes

    Aaron was innoculated with the Moderna vaccine on January 5th, and here he is dead 16 days later. Not very encouraging.

    Replies: @The Alarmist, @Corvinus

    , @Prester John
    @Morton's toes

    Reminds me of the late Hot Rod Hundley's quip about combining with Elgin Baylor for 78 points in a Laker game back in 1960.

    Hundley scored 7.

    , @I, Libertine
    @Morton's toes

    Several sets of brothers - the Niekros, the Madduxes and the Perrys, ruined a similarly tricky baseball trivia question. Which set of brothers who both pitched in the big leagues combined for the most lifetime wins? The answer once was the Mathewsons: Christy (373) and Henry (zero).

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

  7. And Steve once again sticks his head in the sand about what killed this man.

    • Agree: Je Suis Omar Mateen
    • Replies: @anon
    @anon

    Incoming, JackD and his sockpuppet army with 5,000 words of boomercope for your even implying one negative thing about this vaccine.

    HOW DARE YOU

  8. Aaron holds the career HR record for the Dead Ball and Modern Eras. Who cares about Steroid Era “records”?

  9. @R.G. Camara
    Big City media bias and East Coast media bias. Reminds me of what happened to Robin Yount. Yount played on the obscure Brewers his entire career, and despite winning multiple MVP awards and being an outstanding athlete for decades (went from Gold Glove-caliber shortstop to Gold Glove-caliber centerfielder), could walk into any room on the East Coast and not be recognized. If Yount had played in a big media market, especially on the East Coast, he'd be celebrated as one of the greatest athletes of the 20th Century.

    Anyway, Bonds had to cheat heavily to beat Aaron, much like Biden did with Trump. That's all you need to know about how great Aaron's numbers were. As Reggie Jackson said, if you tried to beat Aaron's homerun record by hitting 35 year for 20 years, you'd still be 55 short. Aaron is still the all-time homerun king.

    Also, funny story about Aaron: he grew up hitting "cross-handed". He would bat right-handed as a kid, but his left hand would be on top of his right hand when he swung, instead of the natural other way around (try it on yourself to see how awkward it is). Someone got in his ear as a teen/early 20s and got him to switch his hands up so his right hand was on top of his left, but still kept him batting right handed.

    In his autobio I read as a kid, Aaron wondered why no one ever just turned him around and made him bat left-handed, which would have gotten rid of his cross-handedness and also given him the left-handed batter's advantage.

    But I think Aaron did ok, doncha think? He's one of those top 6 -7outfielders kids argue about putting on the all-time team they have in their minds (Cobb, Ruth, Williams, Musial, Mays, Aaron + whatever outfielder the kid particularly idolizes). RIP.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Trinity, @Ed Case, @Desiderius, @AceDeuce, @E. Rekshun, @kaganovitch, @Truth

    I don’t have any evidence that Aaron ever touched PEDs, but pitcher Tom House, who was on the Braves from 1971-1975, admits to juicing.

    Steroid use was more erratic and regional back then so it’s hard to say for sure. In baseball, it clearly went up in the 1990s, suggesting most ballplayers weren’t using up through the 1980s.

    But I’d guess that a lot of famous athletes in Southern California around 50 years ago at least tried them. E.g., Wilt Chamberlain added 40 pounds of muscle after being traded to LA in 1968 and spending the summer at Muscle Beach with the bodybuilders. Would Wilt, who was curious and easily bored and always looking for a new self-improvement project, have tried this drug his new friends at Muscle Beach swore by? Sure. Would O.J. Simpson have tried what the weight men on his USC track and field team recommended? I’ve never heard anything about OJ and steroids, but the thought isn’t exactly shocking. How about Don Sutton? His nickname was “Black & Decker” for scuffing the ball. Would he try a few pills? I dunno.

    • Replies: @Mike Tre
    @Steve Sailer

    How effective are amphetamines when playing baseball?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @R.G. Camara, @R.G. Camara, @brutusale, @Swamp Fox

    , @R.G. Camara
    @Steve Sailer

    I'd bet money Aaron never touched PEDs.

    He was so cold when Bonds broke his record--when any athlete could see Bonds was juicing --that it seems almost dead certain Aaron never used and was miffed Bonds would bust his record with the cheat. But Aaron never uttered a word about it---because he kept the code of not ratting out another, especially in such a situation, where he couldn't prove it and also it would've sounded like sour grapes. Willie Mays (Bonds' godfather) was much more celebratory at the time. Aaron always seemed old school like that, especially with how dang hard Aaron had to work to break Ruth's record in the obscurity of playing for the Braves of that time.

    I think if a player had honestly broken Aaron's record without obvious steroid use, Aaron would've acted far more warmly.

    N.B. Nolan Ryan personally thanked Tommy House (his old buddy/trainer) in his HOF speech. Ryan definitely juiced. I'd bet money on that, too.

    Replies: @David In TN

    , @Nicholas Stix
    @Steve Sailer

    I'm not concerned about guys who may have juiced (Nolan Ryan?) during the 1970s and '80s, because anabolic steroids were neither illegal nor banned at the time. And if a juicer from that era were to have continued juicing (Ryan?) after steroids were both made illegal and banned (which was redundant), I have my own grandfather clause, like baseball had for spitballers like Burleigh Grimes.

    Replies: @Mike Tre

    , @Anon
    @Steve Sailer

    Lots of circumstantial evidence that Aaron was roiding during his last few years in Atlanta (1969-1973):
    -Tom House steroid remarks-many players were using
    -1973 baseball drug report (buried in the Mitchell report)-astonishing number of players using steroids.
    -Aaron’s ridiculous HR/AB ratio for an older player
    -Davey Johnson ridiculous HR number in 1973
    -Steep decline post 1973-players were warned about the dangers of steroids by doctors.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    , @ScarletNumber
    @Steve Sailer


    pitcher Tom House, who was on the Braves from 1971-1975
     
    Atlanta Stadium didn't have bleachers, so Henry's 715th homerun landed in the bullpen, where it was caught by Tom House.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  10. @Morton's toes
    @BB753

    This is like the greatest throwaway statistic on wikipedia. From Tommie Aaron's (d. 1984) page.


    Aaron hit a total of 13 major league home runs, with eight of them coming in his first year of 1962. Along with his brother's then Major League record 755, they hold the Major League record for the most career home runs by two brothers (768).
     

    Replies: @Anon, @Prester John, @I, Libertine

    Aaron was innoculated with the Moderna vaccine on January 5th, and here he is dead 16 days later. Not very encouraging.

    • Replies: @The Alarmist
    @Anon


    Aaron was innoculated with the Moderna vaccine on January 5th, and here he is dead 16 days later. Not very encouraging.

     

    The Experts assure us this and other deaths occurring shortly after the vaxx are just coincidence... a spurious correlation. They also point out most of those folks were old or had other problems anyway.

    Now do you feel better?

    If you are young and strong, you can take the vaxx with few worries ... or you can risk COVID with few worries.

    , @Corvinus
    @Anon

    "Aaron was innoculated with the Moderna vaccine on January 5th, and here he is dead 16 days later. Not very encouraging."

    Only if outliers become the norm. Was the vaccine a primary factor in his death? How do you know?

  11. A “hitters” park? Understatement.

    I always heard Atlanta-Fulton County Stadium described as a “wind tunnel”.

    (Wiki uses the term “Launching Pad”.)

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Abolish_public_education

    They may also have brought in the fences for Aaron's last few years. The 1973 Braves had 3 guys who hit 40 homers -- Aaron, Darrel Evans (who was a good player), and Davy Johnson (who wasn't).

    Replies: @Ganderson, @Corvinus, @Paul Jolliffe

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @Abolish_public_education


    A “hitters” park? Understatement.

    I always heard Atlanta-Fulton County Stadium described as a “wind tunnel”.
     
    Until Denver got a team, Atlanta was the highest city in the majors. Altitude makes a big difference.

    Replies: @Abolish_public_education

  12. But he’s inferior. Because you know why.

  13. @Abolish_public_education
    A “hitters” park? Understatement.

    I always heard Atlanta-Fulton County Stadium described as a “wind tunnel”.

    (Wiki uses the term “Launching Pad”.)

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Reg Cæsar

    They may also have brought in the fences for Aaron’s last few years. The 1973 Braves had 3 guys who hit 40 homers — Aaron, Darrel Evans (who was a good player), and Davy Johnson (who wasn’t).

    • Replies: @Ganderson
    @Steve Sailer

    I believe Evans should be in the HOF, along with his AL “cousin” Dwight.

    Replies: @Trinity

    , @Corvinus
    @Steve Sailer

    http://seamheads.com/baseballgauge/blog/?p=656


    The common practice in adjusting for ballpark is to take the ballpark factor, which estimates how a park influences run scoring compared to league average, and apply to it to each hitter. However, all players receive the same adjustment, no matter if they bat left-handed or right-handed, or if they are fly ball, ground ball, pull or spray hitters, etc. The assumption that all types of hitters should be treated the same is what I’m attempting to correct.

    Hank Aaron played his career at two parks, Milwaukee County Stadium and Atlanta-Fulton County Stadium. Milwaukee favored pitchers in terms of the long ball, but Atlanta was known as “The Launching Pad” and had a big affect on home runs. Naturally, he sees a drop in his home run total, but also an increase in singles, doubles and triples. The overall level of production didn’t change much after neutralization, just how it changed.
     
    , @Paul Jolliffe
    @Steve Sailer

    Darrell Evans spent his last few years in Detroit at Tiger Stadium with its short upper-deck porch in right field. I myself in 1987 saw Evans crush a bomb into the seats out there - it was a shot. He was the first 40-year old to hit 30 home runs.
    Back then, 30 was a lot.

    https://youtu.be/dgxtLMghYlY

    Replies: @Ron Mexico

  14. @Michelle
    An awesome and superlative baseball player!

    Replies: @Getaclue, @Ben tillman

    Took the CVirus “vaccine” about 2 weeks ago….Unlike Covid and Car Crashes and bullet wounds…no correlation of course….Amerika

  15. Self-styled “Noticer of Patterns” Sailer fails to notice that “excited” and “full of life” Hammerin’ Hank Aaron croaks just a fortnight after getting the Moderna vaccine, a new type of experimental vaccine which uses messenger RNA…

    • Replies: @Jack Armstrong
    @Anonymous

    Looks so healthy in that picture + 86 year olds don’t just drop dead = vaccine death. Yup, q e freaking d.

    , @Nicholas Stix
    @Anonymous

    “rest in power”: From one black supremacist moron to another.

    “Hank Aaron Remains Baseball’s Home Run King, but He was also a black supremacist Moron”
    https://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/2021/01/hank-aaron-remains-baseballs-home-run.html

    Replies: @Colin Wright, @Truth

    , @kaganovitch
    @Anonymous

    Self-styled “Noticer of Patterns” Sailer fails to notice that “excited” and “full of life” Hammerin’ Hank Aaron croaks just a fortnight after getting the Moderna vaccine, a new type of experimental vaccine which uses messenger RNA…

    Don't know about you but I have 'noticed' that when the media describe 86 year olds restricted to wheelchairs they often describe them as "full of life". It would probably be overly literal to draw conclusions about the life expectancy of said 86 year olds from that description.

    , @Steve Sailer
    @Anonymous

    I pointed out in the first paragraph that Aaron died a half month after being inoculated with the Moderna vaccine.

  16. Inner circle HOFer. I’ve made this point before, but he was oddly underrated. I get the sense that most don’t put him in the same category as Mays and Mantle. R.G. suggests why above. They should though. And a lot of the headlines emphasize that he was a slugger- he was, but he was so much more. My favorite player growing up was Harmon Killebrew, a legit Hall of Famer. Aaron was an order of magnitude better than Harmon. I’d wager Harmon would agree.

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    @Ganderson

    Inner circle HOFer. I’ve made this point before, but he was oddly underrated. I get the sense that most don’t put him in the same category as Mays and Mantle. R.G. suggests why above. They should though.

    Though he was , of course, an all time great, modern analytics support the idea that he wasn't quite on the level of Mantle and Mays. Aaron's highest Offensive W.A.R. total was 9.5 in 1963. He only exceeded 9 one other time in his career. Mantle exceeded 10.5 three times in his career. While Mays's Off. WAR was similar to Aaron's he was a much better fielder at a much harder defensive position, hence his overall value was higher. He exceeded 10 WAR 6 times in his career.
    Takes nothing away from Aaron who maintained peak production longer than anyone else, but his peak was not quite as great as their's.

    Replies: @Ganderson

    , @ScarletNumber
    @Ganderson


    I’ve made this point before, but [Aaron] was oddly underrated.
     
    Yes he was. Remember, last week when he was alive, if you asked baseball fans who the greatest living ballplayer was, no one would have answered Aaron. The answer is Willie Mays.
  17. @Steve Sailer
    @Abolish_public_education

    They may also have brought in the fences for Aaron's last few years. The 1973 Braves had 3 guys who hit 40 homers -- Aaron, Darrel Evans (who was a good player), and Davy Johnson (who wasn't).

    Replies: @Ganderson, @Corvinus, @Paul Jolliffe

    I believe Evans should be in the HOF, along with his AL “cousin” Dwight.

    • Replies: @Trinity
    @Ganderson

    Darrell Evans had a career batting average of .248, are you kidding me? Darrell hit 400 homers, 414 to be exact, but so did Dave Kingman who hit 442 dingers but batted a paltry .238. Dwight Evans was a helluva fielder and won 8 gold gloves, he was good but not HOF material. It took Ron Santo and Jim Rice years to get to the HOF, both guys were a couple levels above Darrell and a level above Dwight.

    Replies: @njguy73, @Ganderson, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Up2Drew

  18. @Steve Sailer
    @R.G. Camara

    I don't have any evidence that Aaron ever touched PEDs, but pitcher Tom House, who was on the Braves from 1971-1975, admits to juicing.

    Steroid use was more erratic and regional back then so it's hard to say for sure. In baseball, it clearly went up in the 1990s, suggesting most ballplayers weren't using up through the 1980s.

    But I'd guess that a lot of famous athletes in Southern California around 50 years ago at least tried them. E.g., Wilt Chamberlain added 40 pounds of muscle after being traded to LA in 1968 and spending the summer at Muscle Beach with the bodybuilders. Would Wilt, who was curious and easily bored and always looking for a new self-improvement project, have tried this drug his new friends at Muscle Beach swore by? Sure. Would O.J. Simpson have tried what the weight men on his USC track and field team recommended? I've never heard anything about OJ and steroids, but the thought isn't exactly shocking. How about Don Sutton? His nickname was "Black & Decker" for scuffing the ball. Would he try a few pills? I dunno.

    Replies: @Mike Tre, @R.G. Camara, @Nicholas Stix, @Anon, @ScarletNumber

    How effective are amphetamines when playing baseball?

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Mike Tre

    They help in playing 6 games per week for 6 months.

    The military handed out a lot of uppers during WWII. American athletes kept using them after the war to concentrate. British kids used them to go dancing.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Mike Tre, @Desiderius

    , @R.G. Camara
    @Mike Tre

    Very effective, especially in getting over a hangover/late night of partying the day before. Like coffee on steroids.

    , @R.G. Camara
    @Mike Tre

    Very effective, especially in getting over a hangover/late night of partying the day before. Like coffee on steroids.

    Given that baseball is an everyday type of game, the ability to bounce back the next day is key. Long time Houston Astros third baseman Ken Caminiti admitted way back in the Tom Verducci-Sports Illustrated expose of steroids in baseball that the reason he first started juicing was not to smack homeruns, but to recover better, as once he passed 30 he found himself too sore to play every day without pain.

    Deon Sanders also mentioned that, between baseball and football, baseball caused him more injuries, because with football he got a whole week to recover, but with baseball he had to get up the next day and play again, causing nagging injuries never to heal.

    , @brutusale
    @Mike Tre

    Some MLB players say that greenies were more important than steroids.

    https://www.razorgator.com/blog/remember-when-everyone-in-the-mlb-was-using-greenies/

    https://sportales.com/blogging/steroids-spitballs-and-greenies-a-baseball-hypocrisy/

    As Jim Bouton wrote in Ball Four: How fabulous are greenies? Very!

    In his 1967 book about the Packers championship season, NFL star Jerry Kramer talked about the amphetamine-spiked "dexy coffee" in the locker room.

    , @Swamp Fox
    @Mike Tre

    Amphetamines and steroids can't make you better at hitting an exploding slider or a barn swallow curve.

    Replies: @Mike Tre

  19. Aaron’s lifetime performance against Koufax:

    116 42 6 3 7 14 5 12 0 0 0 .362 .431

    That’s 7 homers, 19 walks, 12 K’s.

  20. What’s fascinating about Aaron is that he never really put up monster numbers in a single season (his career high for home runs was 47). He broke Ruth’s record by averaging thirty-three home runs over twenty-three seasons. That’s impressive longevity and consistency.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @JohnnyD

    Fans assumed that the Milwaukee County Stadium must be a hitter's park because Eddie Matthews and Hank Aaron hit so well in the 1950s, but it was actually a pitcher's park. Matthews and Aaron were in fact historic hitters. So when Aaron got to Atlanta, which was a hitter's park, he just kept going in his 30s at the same nominal pace as in his 20s, especially after game got back to normal stats after the 1968 Year of the Pitcher.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Barnard

    , @nebulafox
    @JohnnyD

    Aaron was the Tokugawa Ieyasu to Ruth's Oda Nobunaga.

  21. @Abolish_public_education
    A “hitters” park? Understatement.

    I always heard Atlanta-Fulton County Stadium described as a “wind tunnel”.

    (Wiki uses the term “Launching Pad”.)

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Reg Cæsar

    A “hitters” park? Understatement.

    I always heard Atlanta-Fulton County Stadium described as a “wind tunnel”.

    Until Denver got a team, Atlanta was the highest city in the majors. Altitude makes a big difference.

    • Replies: @Abolish_public_education
    @Reg Cæsar

    There must be a lot of scientific research out there regarding the effects of high/low altitude stadiums.

    As an educated guess, high altitude should be bad news for breaking balls, but good news for fastballs.

    I much prefer the hard science over speculative statistics. For instance, how air temperature affects the materiel properties of the bat/ball is a useful measure. Trying to normalize, idk, the career batting average of a player for stadium latitude (“He should be in the HOF!”) is hopelessly debatable.

    Coming soon to a JumboTron near you: The vector field of laminar airflow above the stadium floor, at 10-ft elevation intervals.

    Replies: @kaganovitch

  22. @JohnnyD
    What's fascinating about Aaron is that he never really put up monster numbers in a single season (his career high for home runs was 47). He broke Ruth's record by averaging thirty-three home runs over twenty-three seasons. That's impressive longevity and consistency.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @nebulafox

    Fans assumed that the Milwaukee County Stadium must be a hitter’s park because Eddie Matthews and Hank Aaron hit so well in the 1950s, but it was actually a pitcher’s park. Matthews and Aaron were in fact historic hitters. So when Aaron got to Atlanta, which was a hitter’s park, he just kept going in his 30s at the same nominal pace as in his 20s, especially after game got back to normal stats after the 1968 Year of the Pitcher.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @Steve Sailer

    All the kvetching about Aaron needing more at bats or whatever ignores him playing right through the worst of the late 60s hitting drought. Similar problem with Rose whose doubles numbers during those years are remarkable.

    , @Barnard
    @Steve Sailer

    The four expansion teams added in 1969 no doubt helped hitters too, as it would have significantly diluted pitching talent for the 1969 season. If you assume 10 pitchers to a roster, there would have been 200 pitchers in 1968 and 240 in 1969. That is a lot of guys who were stuck in AAA suddenly getting a shot at the big leagues.

  23. @Mike Tre
    @Steve Sailer

    How effective are amphetamines when playing baseball?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @R.G. Camara, @R.G. Camara, @brutusale, @Swamp Fox

    They help in playing 6 games per week for 6 months.

    The military handed out a lot of uppers during WWII. American athletes kept using them after the war to concentrate. British kids used them to go dancing.

    • Agree: ScarletNumber
    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Steve Sailer

    They're basically akin to over the counter caffeine pills, nothing less and nothing more. Or about five to six cups of strong espresso.

    In his autobiography, Jose Canseco made the point that as soon as MLBers realized that they would get more productive bang for their buck by switching over to PEDs, that's when greenies started to disappear entirely from MLB. Canseco stated that he never once took a greenie. He didn't see the point, because compared to PEDS, they weren't all that from a production standpoint. Also, during the late 80's and 90's and even today, MLB players are in better shape and condition, something which did begin with the start of PED usage (and beyond usage perhaps as well), whereas during the heyday of greenie usage, the 50's thru the early 80's, MLB players were anything but considered in the best of overall fitness and shape (especially when compared to the NFL players, who by that time more and more were using PEDS). So PED usage equated to better conditioning and overall better fitness levels, whereas greenies didn't particularly make MLB players in better shape or have better fitness levels.

    No one ever hit 60 and 70 plus HRs in a single season due entirely to greenies, but there is ample evidence that people took PEDS and hit 60 and 70 plus HRs in a single season.

    , @Mike Tre
    @Steve Sailer

    So not out of the question that Aaron and others of his day made use of them.

    , @Desiderius
    @Steve Sailer

    What effect would the Real Coke have on Ruth?

  24. @Steve Sailer
    @R.G. Camara

    I don't have any evidence that Aaron ever touched PEDs, but pitcher Tom House, who was on the Braves from 1971-1975, admits to juicing.

    Steroid use was more erratic and regional back then so it's hard to say for sure. In baseball, it clearly went up in the 1990s, suggesting most ballplayers weren't using up through the 1980s.

    But I'd guess that a lot of famous athletes in Southern California around 50 years ago at least tried them. E.g., Wilt Chamberlain added 40 pounds of muscle after being traded to LA in 1968 and spending the summer at Muscle Beach with the bodybuilders. Would Wilt, who was curious and easily bored and always looking for a new self-improvement project, have tried this drug his new friends at Muscle Beach swore by? Sure. Would O.J. Simpson have tried what the weight men on his USC track and field team recommended? I've never heard anything about OJ and steroids, but the thought isn't exactly shocking. How about Don Sutton? His nickname was "Black & Decker" for scuffing the ball. Would he try a few pills? I dunno.

    Replies: @Mike Tre, @R.G. Camara, @Nicholas Stix, @Anon, @ScarletNumber

    I’d bet money Aaron never touched PEDs.

    He was so cold when Bonds broke his record–when any athlete could see Bonds was juicing –that it seems almost dead certain Aaron never used and was miffed Bonds would bust his record with the cheat. But Aaron never uttered a word about it—because he kept the code of not ratting out another, especially in such a situation, where he couldn’t prove it and also it would’ve sounded like sour grapes. Willie Mays (Bonds’ godfather) was much more celebratory at the time. Aaron always seemed old school like that, especially with how dang hard Aaron had to work to break Ruth’s record in the obscurity of playing for the Braves of that time.

    I think if a player had honestly broken Aaron’s record without obvious steroid use, Aaron would’ve acted far more warmly.

    N.B. Nolan Ryan personally thanked Tommy House (his old buddy/trainer) in his HOF speech. Ryan definitely juiced. I’d bet money on that, too.

    • Replies: @David In TN
    @R.G. Camara

    I recall watching the 1958 World Series on TV, age 8. The announcers called him "Hammerin Hank Aaron." His best years were from 1955-63. He averaged well over .300 with HR totals of 27, 26, 44, 30, 39, 40, 34, 45, 44. Aaron wasn't juicing then.

    Anyone who was a casual baseball fan knew Hank Aaron was the best pure hitter in baseball during that time.

    Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle were considered greater players. Mays, due to his all around skill. Mantle, due to being in the Series almost every year, hitting longer home runs than anybody from both sides of the plate. Also, Mantle and Mays numbers were close to Aaron's. Mays and Mantle hit over 50 home runs in a season twice each. Aaron never did.

    Replies: @R.G. Camara

  25. @Mike Tre
    @Steve Sailer

    How effective are amphetamines when playing baseball?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @R.G. Camara, @R.G. Camara, @brutusale, @Swamp Fox

    Very effective, especially in getting over a hangover/late night of partying the day before. Like coffee on steroids.

  26. @Mike Tre
    @Steve Sailer

    How effective are amphetamines when playing baseball?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @R.G. Camara, @R.G. Camara, @brutusale, @Swamp Fox

    Very effective, especially in getting over a hangover/late night of partying the day before. Like coffee on steroids.

    Given that baseball is an everyday type of game, the ability to bounce back the next day is key. Long time Houston Astros third baseman Ken Caminiti admitted way back in the Tom Verducci-Sports Illustrated expose of steroids in baseball that the reason he first started juicing was not to smack homeruns, but to recover better, as once he passed 30 he found himself too sore to play every day without pain.

    Deon Sanders also mentioned that, between baseball and football, baseball caused him more injuries, because with football he got a whole week to recover, but with baseball he had to get up the next day and play again, causing nagging injuries never to heal.

  27. Hank Aaron was the most consistently reliable hitter of the 20th century. Like his counterpart Pete Rose, Aaron also benefitted by never having had a major injury sideline him for sizable amount of time. From 1954 to 1974, he never hit fewer than 25 HR’s nor more than 47 in a single season. It should be noted that Fulton County Stadium in MIL was not as much a pitcher’s park compared to Dodger Stadium. After all, Aaron’s teammate HOF 3B Eddie Matthews hit 512 HR’s during his career playing most of it in MIL. If anything HOF SF CF Willie Mays, who played the majority of his career in Candlestick park, was a much tougher ballpark to hit HR’s due to the unsual wind currents (the fact that Candlestick Park was literally built on a wind tunnel, thus causing havoc on hit balls in general).

    After about 1961 or so, MIL/ATL wasn’t particularly dominant a club (aside from winning the Western division in 1969) from a NL Pennant standpoint, which might account for why Aaron didn’t quite get the recognition he deserved for most of his career.

    Willie Mays was always considered the one player who would eventually break Babe Ruth’s HR record, but playing CF in Candlestick park, a much larger range of OF to cover compared to Aaron (RF), plus some late career injuries, took their toll on the Say Hey Kid, and he came up short of the record.

    Even now, one could make a case that overall as a 5 tool player, Willie Mays was the far superior player than Aaron. Because he began and ended his career in NY, Mays was always the favored one of the NY sportswriters and would’ve probably had greater support behind him and less controversy if he had broken Ruth’s record. Willie was also the first African-American, (unlike Jackie Robinson) who clearly wasn’t a token, a symbol of breaking the color line. Willie Mays was the first five tool African-American MLBer who clearly was the most dominant CF and hitter for the bulk of his career, mainly because for most of his two decades plus career, Willie Mays was indeed the greatest player in MLB, which was something seldom ever accorded to Aaron until the tail end of his career. During the 50’s and 60’s, Aaron’s name doesn’t figure prominently as the most dominant player in MLB, especially when compared to Mays. He simply outlasted Mays (and was fortunate not to have had a single major injury that caused him to miss significant amount of games).

    When asked “Who’s the greatest player in MLB?” In his usual less than modest but factual answer, Willie replied “Me.” (Mays’ estimation for 2nd greatest all round player in MLB was PIT Roberto Clemente.)

    • Replies: @Truth
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi


    Willie was also the first African-American, (unlike Jackie Robinson) who clearly wasn’t a token, a symbol of breaking the color line.
     
    Tokens don't win MVPs.


    He simply outlasted Mays (and was fortunate not to have had a single major injury that caused him to miss significant amount of games).
     
    "In sports, the best ability is availability. you can't make plays from the trainer's table.
    -Tony Dungy

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    , @ScarletNumber
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi


    Willie Mays was always considered the one player who would eventually break Babe Ruth’s HR record
     
    Aaron didn't pass Mays until June 10, 1972, when he hit his 649th home run. Less than two years later, he passed the Babe.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  28. @Steve Sailer
    @Mike Tre

    They help in playing 6 games per week for 6 months.

    The military handed out a lot of uppers during WWII. American athletes kept using them after the war to concentrate. British kids used them to go dancing.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Mike Tre, @Desiderius

    They’re basically akin to over the counter caffeine pills, nothing less and nothing more. Or about five to six cups of strong espresso.

    In his autobiography, Jose Canseco made the point that as soon as MLBers realized that they would get more productive bang for their buck by switching over to PEDs, that’s when greenies started to disappear entirely from MLB. Canseco stated that he never once took a greenie. He didn’t see the point, because compared to PEDS, they weren’t all that from a production standpoint. Also, during the late 80’s and 90’s and even today, MLB players are in better shape and condition, something which did begin with the start of PED usage (and beyond usage perhaps as well), whereas during the heyday of greenie usage, the 50’s thru the early 80’s, MLB players were anything but considered in the best of overall fitness and shape (especially when compared to the NFL players, who by that time more and more were using PEDS). So PED usage equated to better conditioning and overall better fitness levels, whereas greenies didn’t particularly make MLB players in better shape or have better fitness levels.

    No one ever hit 60 and 70 plus HRs in a single season due entirely to greenies, but there is ample evidence that people took PEDS and hit 60 and 70 plus HRs in a single season.

  29. @Anonymous
    Self-styled "Noticer of Patterns" Sailer fails to notice that "excited" and "full of life" Hammerin' Hank Aaron croaks just a fortnight after getting the Moderna vaccine, a new type of experimental vaccine which uses messenger RNA...

    https://twitter.com/KHollowayWSB/status/1352641971890872324

    Replies: @Jack Armstrong, @Nicholas Stix, @kaganovitch, @Steve Sailer

    Looks so healthy in that picture + 86 year olds don’t just drop dead = vaccine death. Yup, q e freaking d.

    • Agree: Father Coughlin
  30. @Anonymous
    Self-styled "Noticer of Patterns" Sailer fails to notice that "excited" and "full of life" Hammerin' Hank Aaron croaks just a fortnight after getting the Moderna vaccine, a new type of experimental vaccine which uses messenger RNA...

    https://twitter.com/KHollowayWSB/status/1352641971890872324

    Replies: @Jack Armstrong, @Nicholas Stix, @kaganovitch, @Steve Sailer

    “rest in power”: From one black supremacist moron to another.

    “Hank Aaron Remains Baseball’s Home Run King, but He was also a black supremacist Moron”
    https://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/2021/01/hank-aaron-remains-baseballs-home-run.html

    • Agree: Trinity, Wake up
    • Thanks: Father Coughlin, LondonBob
    • Replies: @Colin Wright
    @Nicholas Stix

    '“Hank Aaron Remains Baseball’s Home Run King, but He was also a black supremacist Moron”'

    Alright in his place then. A lot of blacks are okay -- so long as we don't ask things of them they can't deliver.

    It's like me. I'm mighty fine -- just so long as you don't ask me to do a triple flip on the balance beam.

    , @Truth
    @Nicholas Stix

    That article reads like it was written by a 9th grader in Fargo who was mad at his daddy.

  31. @Steve Sailer
    @R.G. Camara

    I don't have any evidence that Aaron ever touched PEDs, but pitcher Tom House, who was on the Braves from 1971-1975, admits to juicing.

    Steroid use was more erratic and regional back then so it's hard to say for sure. In baseball, it clearly went up in the 1990s, suggesting most ballplayers weren't using up through the 1980s.

    But I'd guess that a lot of famous athletes in Southern California around 50 years ago at least tried them. E.g., Wilt Chamberlain added 40 pounds of muscle after being traded to LA in 1968 and spending the summer at Muscle Beach with the bodybuilders. Would Wilt, who was curious and easily bored and always looking for a new self-improvement project, have tried this drug his new friends at Muscle Beach swore by? Sure. Would O.J. Simpson have tried what the weight men on his USC track and field team recommended? I've never heard anything about OJ and steroids, but the thought isn't exactly shocking. How about Don Sutton? His nickname was "Black & Decker" for scuffing the ball. Would he try a few pills? I dunno.

    Replies: @Mike Tre, @R.G. Camara, @Nicholas Stix, @Anon, @ScarletNumber

    I’m not concerned about guys who may have juiced (Nolan Ryan?) during the 1970s and ’80s, because anabolic steroids were neither illegal nor banned at the time. And if a juicer from that era were to have continued juicing (Ryan?) after steroids were both made illegal and banned (which was redundant), I have my own grandfather clause, like baseball had for spitballers like Burleigh Grimes.

    • Replies: @Mike Tre
    @Nicholas Stix

    I found this yt channel recently. It has some interesting biographies about notable MLB players:

    https://youtu.be/72WT-Wq0d0A

  32. Remarkable consistency.

    Basically averaged 37 homers and 110 RBI for 20 plus years.

    Greatest right hand hitter of all time.

    Mike Trout need another 8 or 9 good years to even get close.

    RIP.

    • Replies: @prime noticer
    @Sandy Berger's Socks

    "Mike Trout need another 8 or 9 good years to even get close."

    i would give it 50-50 odds at best. possible, but not likely. he misses about 1 month per season every year due to minor injuries. so far they haven't added up, but they might eventually. like Tom Brady missing an entire season in his prime to a blown out knee. Trout keeps missing out on the MVP by like 3 weeks of playing stats that he doesn't rack up.

    also as usual, pitching was worse when Hank Aaron played. not as bad as 100 years ago but not as good as today. .340 is about the best you can hit now. the last time somebody hit .350 was 10 years ago.

    on the other hand, the league clearly changed the baseball slightly so it travels further in the air. so there's that.

  33. @Ganderson
    @Steve Sailer

    I believe Evans should be in the HOF, along with his AL “cousin” Dwight.

    Replies: @Trinity

    Darrell Evans had a career batting average of .248, are you kidding me? Darrell hit 400 homers, 414 to be exact, but so did Dave Kingman who hit 442 dingers but batted a paltry .238. Dwight Evans was a helluva fielder and won 8 gold gloves, he was good but not HOF material. It took Ron Santo and Jim Rice years to get to the HOF, both guys were a couple levels above Darrell and a level above Dwight.

    • Replies: @njguy73
    @Trinity

    So why do we like Darrell Evans?

    Because he gets on base.

    , @Ganderson
    @Trinity

    I was not entirely serious- my quick and dirty look at Darrell’s numbers suggests a very good player- high OBP, power, long, career. Dunno about defense. He doesn’t do all that well on the Keltner list, and I don’t think, most while he was active saw him as a HOF type player. I think he’s in what I like to call the “Kent Hrbek zone”, a level down from the hall.

    As for Rice, I never thought he was a HOF player- he had one monster season that he rode to enshrinement. Both Evans’ had higher lifetime WARs, and Dwight was a far superior defensive player. For much of Rice’s career he was the third best player in his team’s outfield.

    Santo is a legit HOFer.

    , @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Trinity

    I have thought long and hard about this for a long, long time.

    As good as they were, both Jim Rice and Ron Santo, and others of their ilk, have no right to be in the HOF, which is turning into the hall of very good. Neither had 500 HRs, nor had 3,000 H's. A retired players status don't suddenly improve 20, 30 yrs after he stopped playing. Politics and popularity is what it is, pure and simple.

    For example, a true HOF should have a continuum of players. You don't have to think about the names, you don't have a pause a la "Yeah, but this guy over here was just as good, why isn't he in?" If Ron Santo is in the HOF, so should Dave Parker, Al Oliver, and Dave Kingman. A case can be made for these types of players, it's just that because Santo and Rice played in markets with a sizable MLB fan base and have political connections with the national MLB media at large, they happened to get in while others did not. Ron Santo was never on people's lips as the greatest ever to play MLB during the era of which he played. The fact that some retired players can lobby, and have allies in the media lobby for them to get in after decades post retirement says all one needs to know that they are NOT HOF material. Else, they'd not only be first ballot HOF, it would be so obvious. No one has to think or pause about whether or not the name Stan Musial belongs in the HOF. Ron Santo, it's like "WHO?" And that's an obvious clue that the HOF has turned into the Hall of okay, sorta, kinda, you know, sure why not. And not a secular Valhallah of greatness.

    The names Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Lou Gerhig, Hank Aaron, Willie Mays all go together. Each name can be compared with one another in the sense that they are at the same level of greatness. Every single name can be easily compared with one another in the sense that they are all the greatest of the great. Within the top 1%, there is a tenth of a tenth of a tenth of 1% (within the top 1% as a whole). Jim Rice and Ron Santo may indeed be in the top one percent of MLBers to have played the game, but they are not in the same percentile as Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron, and everyone knows it. Therefore they don't belong in the HOF.

    Every player name inducted must be compared to one another in the sense that...Are they truly at the same level of greatness? If the answer is no, then they don't belong in the HOF, pure and simple.

    In the NFL this is easily grasped.

    On Defense, the names easily compared are:

    Chuck Bednarik, Dick Butkus, Alan Page, Joe Greene, Jack Lambert, Ronnie Lott, Lawrence Taylor, Rod Woodson, Ray Lewis.

    All these names, no matter the era of which they played, can easily be compared with one another in the sense that they are that guy, the most dominant of the most dominant to ever played the game. Like Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron, they have transcended their sport itself. Ron Santo and Jim Rice never transcended anything, and they sure don't belong in the same sentence with Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron.

    And that's the true and only standard: do all the names in the HOF go together? Can they be readily compared with one another as the greatest ever to play during their era? Not just good, not just okay, not just dominant for a couple yrs, but dominant to the point that they were the ones talked about, and everyone knew that they were the greatest ever to play the game (during their era). They had a direct impact on the sport itself.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92T_3ITjJgs

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @Ganderson

    , @Up2Drew
    @Trinity

    Ron Santo career road statistics (like many Cubs):

    1107 games played, .257 BA, .342 OBP, 126 HR.

    Home:

    1136, .296, .383, 216 HR.

    A Wrigley Field creation.

  34. @R.G. Camara
    Big City media bias and East Coast media bias. Reminds me of what happened to Robin Yount. Yount played on the obscure Brewers his entire career, and despite winning multiple MVP awards and being an outstanding athlete for decades (went from Gold Glove-caliber shortstop to Gold Glove-caliber centerfielder), could walk into any room on the East Coast and not be recognized. If Yount had played in a big media market, especially on the East Coast, he'd be celebrated as one of the greatest athletes of the 20th Century.

    Anyway, Bonds had to cheat heavily to beat Aaron, much like Biden did with Trump. That's all you need to know about how great Aaron's numbers were. As Reggie Jackson said, if you tried to beat Aaron's homerun record by hitting 35 year for 20 years, you'd still be 55 short. Aaron is still the all-time homerun king.

    Also, funny story about Aaron: he grew up hitting "cross-handed". He would bat right-handed as a kid, but his left hand would be on top of his right hand when he swung, instead of the natural other way around (try it on yourself to see how awkward it is). Someone got in his ear as a teen/early 20s and got him to switch his hands up so his right hand was on top of his left, but still kept him batting right handed.

    In his autobio I read as a kid, Aaron wondered why no one ever just turned him around and made him bat left-handed, which would have gotten rid of his cross-handedness and also given him the left-handed batter's advantage.

    But I think Aaron did ok, doncha think? He's one of those top 6 -7outfielders kids argue about putting on the all-time team they have in their minds (Cobb, Ruth, Williams, Musial, Mays, Aaron + whatever outfielder the kid particularly idolizes). RIP.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Trinity, @Ed Case, @Desiderius, @AceDeuce, @E. Rekshun, @kaganovitch, @Truth

    Aaron definitely suffered by playing in a small market at the time TO A DEGREE, of course Atlanta has grown exponentially since Aaron left to play his final 2 seasons in Milwaukee in 1975-76. Atlanta probably had a metro area of slightly more than 2 million people during Aaron’s playing days in the city, and it has nearly tripled in population since then. Still it suffers from being a Southern city because of a history of Northeastern/Boston-Washington corridor and West Coast bias. Hell even Philadelphia, Baltimore and D.C. suffer from New York bias and to a lesser degree from stuffy Boston fans and newspapers. Atlanta is on the same level as Washington, Philly, Boston, Houston, Dallas, and Miami now, but you would never know it listening to the media, hell it could be a level above Boston and Philly. It has hosted the Olympics, has one of the world’s largest and busiest airports, a skyline that is every bit as impressive if not more so than Dallas, Miami,Philly, and definitely more impressive than Boston and Atlanta has 16 companies based here in Fortune 500. Not exactly the overgrown cow town it was when Aaron played here.

    Aaron’s home run record has a lot to do with his length of stay, the amount of plate appearances and at bats, it has already been mentioned that Aaron never hit more than 47 home runs in a single season whereas Ruth topped out at 61 home runs in a 154 game season, Mays hit 52 home runs for a high, Ted Williams spent some of his prime years in the military and while he topped out at 43 homers for a season high, his career batting average was .344 to Aaron’s .305. Teddy only batted 7,706 plus times and managed 521 home runs where it took Aaron 12, 364 at bats to reach 755 home runs. Mickey Mantle? Mantle had 8,102 at bats and finished with 536 homers and topped over 50 hrs in a single season twice. Lest we forget Mantle played a good deal of his career with a bum leg as well. Babe Ruth? Hit over 50 homers 4 times in his career, his high was 61 for a season, a record that stood for a long time until Roger Maris took 162 game season to break it. Ruth only batted 8,399 times to Aaron’s 12,364 times at bat, that is roughly 4,000 more at bats than Ruth had but he only bested the Bambino’s record by 755-714, a mere 41 home runs. Aaron was never the all around player that a prime Mickey Mantle or Willie Mays were, and that his lack of coverage had as much to do with that as his playing in the Deep South and a small market at the time. To be honest as great as Aaron was, his numbers are below Williams, Ruth, Mantle, Mays and steroid Barry Bonds.

    • Replies: @woody weaver
    @Trinity

    What never ceases to amaze me about Babe Ruth was his 94-46 record as a pitcher and 2.28 ERA. Some of the most productive years as a player were spent on the mound. That makes his 8399 at-bats to reach 714 home runs even more impressive. Looking at Ruth's pitching statistics, Ruth twice won more than twenty games and pitched more than 300 innings. Ruth is the game's greatest player hands down. Hank Aaron is certainly a top five or ten great but Ruth excelled on both the mound and the field which places him at the top.

    Replies: @Pat Kittle

    , @Dr. DoomNGloom
    @Trinity

    The best ball player is the one in the line-up.
    Aaron was remarkably durable and effective. 40 HR in his age 39 season is remarkable.
    Peak value, the eye-ball test favors Mantle, but the Mick had chronic bone issues and a drinking problem.

    I always felt Mays fielding was a bit overrated, especially his throws which were strong, but not consistently accurate and not always to the correct base. Nonetheless, Mays played center and covered quite a bit of ground. Aaron was reliably excellent in right field. Like with his bat, he seldom made you saw "Wow" (think of some famous throws by Mays and Clemente), but looking back you realize it would be very hard to find someone as good or better.

    Aaron struck me as likable in that he had dry humor, fairly low key, and appreciated his status without being overwhelmed by it. He never seemed larger than life.

    86 years is a good run. RIP.

    , @AceDeuce
    @Trinity

    Ruth topped out at 60 home runs (1927), not 61.

    BTW, Ruth's lifetime BA was .342.

    , @Anon
    @Trinity


    Still it suffers from being a Southern city because of a history of Northeastern/Boston-Washington corridor and West Coast bias. Hell even Philadelphia, Baltimore and D.C. suffer from New York bias and to a lesser degree from stuffy Boston fans and newspapers. Atlanta is on the same level as Washington, Philly, Boston, Houston, Dallas, and Miami now, but you would never know it listening to the media, hell it could be a level above Boston and Philly. It has hosted the Olympics, has one of the world’s largest and busiest airports, a skyline that is every bit as impressive if not more so than Dallas, Miami,Philly, and definitely more impressive than Boston and Atlanta has 16 companies based here in Fortune 500. Not exactly the overgrown cow town it was when Aaron played here.
     
    LOL. Wut??

    Boston/Cambridge is where the intelligentsia come from and/or go to school and/or spend their career in teaching or developing revolutionary breakthroughs in STEM. This won’t ever change. You can be sure you’re not a MOTU (master of the universe) if you haven’t spent at least part of your life in the Boston area.

    There are no doubt more Nobel Laureates in the Boston area than any other city/region in the world. Over 97 of Nobel Laureates are affiliated with MIT (62 of them in science). There are 161 Nobel Laureates affiliated with Harvard (113 in science). Other Boston area schools like Tufts and Boston University each have 3 Nobel Laureates in science affiliated with them.

    Replies: @Trinity, @bomag

  35. The true home run king and greatest baseball player of All Time….. Babe Ruth.

    • Disagree: Corvinus
    • Replies: @Ron Mexico
    @Wake up

    Corvinus can make an argument about "true home run king," but no counter argument can be made about "best baseball player" EVAH! How many World Series games did Aaron pitch in? Win? Mays? Williams?

    , @Trinity
    @Wake up

    Ruth was the REAL KING OF HOME RUNS, however, I give the best all around player of all time to either Barry Bonds or Willie Mays. Steroids aided Bonds but he was a five tool player when he was a skinny kid in Pittsburgh. Bonds would have hit in the high 500's or low 600s had he never touched a PED. He had it all, glove, speed, arm, power, just like Willie Mays. PEDs can only help so much when it comes to a skill sport like baseball. Greg Luzinski who played for the Phillies was built like a brick shithouse and he never put up the HUGE numbers, good numbers but he couldn't even match the great Mike Schmidt. Big polish guy, who I don't even think lifted weights much less take PEDs.

    Replies: @Ron Mexico, @Marty

  36. @Anon
    @Morton's toes

    Aaron was innoculated with the Moderna vaccine on January 5th, and here he is dead 16 days later. Not very encouraging.

    Replies: @The Alarmist, @Corvinus

    Aaron was innoculated with the Moderna vaccine on January 5th, and here he is dead 16 days later. Not very encouraging.

    The Experts assure us this and other deaths occurring shortly after the vaxx are just coincidence… a spurious correlation. They also point out most of those folks were old or had other problems anyway.

    Now do you feel better?

    If you are young and strong, you can take the vaxx with few worries … or you can risk COVID with few worries.

    • Agree: Father Coughlin
  37. @R.G. Camara
    Big City media bias and East Coast media bias. Reminds me of what happened to Robin Yount. Yount played on the obscure Brewers his entire career, and despite winning multiple MVP awards and being an outstanding athlete for decades (went from Gold Glove-caliber shortstop to Gold Glove-caliber centerfielder), could walk into any room on the East Coast and not be recognized. If Yount had played in a big media market, especially on the East Coast, he'd be celebrated as one of the greatest athletes of the 20th Century.

    Anyway, Bonds had to cheat heavily to beat Aaron, much like Biden did with Trump. That's all you need to know about how great Aaron's numbers were. As Reggie Jackson said, if you tried to beat Aaron's homerun record by hitting 35 year for 20 years, you'd still be 55 short. Aaron is still the all-time homerun king.

    Also, funny story about Aaron: he grew up hitting "cross-handed". He would bat right-handed as a kid, but his left hand would be on top of his right hand when he swung, instead of the natural other way around (try it on yourself to see how awkward it is). Someone got in his ear as a teen/early 20s and got him to switch his hands up so his right hand was on top of his left, but still kept him batting right handed.

    In his autobio I read as a kid, Aaron wondered why no one ever just turned him around and made him bat left-handed, which would have gotten rid of his cross-handedness and also given him the left-handed batter's advantage.

    But I think Aaron did ok, doncha think? He's one of those top 6 -7outfielders kids argue about putting on the all-time team they have in their minds (Cobb, Ruth, Williams, Musial, Mays, Aaron + whatever outfielder the kid particularly idolizes). RIP.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Trinity, @Ed Case, @Desiderius, @AceDeuce, @E. Rekshun, @kaganovitch, @Truth

    What happened there, in my opinion, was that Hank Aaron was a natural left hander who was discouraged from LH dominance as an infant.
    That was common child rearing practice until at least the 1960s.
    So the first time he picked up a bat or a hockey stick, he would’ve had his right hand high and his left hand low, even though he was looking over his left shoulder.
    There was a Professional Golfer in Africa [Kenya, Rhodesia?]who swung that way, he had success in the 1960s, I think?

    • Replies: @Ed Case
    @Ed Case

    Further to that comment, I see that Vijay Singh uses a crosshanded grip for his short game.
    https://www.golfchannel.com/video/vijay-singh-cross-handed-grip-tip-short-game-magic

  38. @Ed Case
    @R.G. Camara

    What happened there, in my opinion, was that Hank Aaron was a natural left hander who was discouraged from LH dominance as an infant.
    That was common child rearing practice until at least the 1960s.
    So the first time he picked up a bat or a hockey stick, he would've had his right hand high and his left hand low, even though he was looking over his left shoulder.
    There was a Professional Golfer in Africa [Kenya, Rhodesia?]who swung that way, he had success in the 1960s, I think?

    Replies: @Ed Case

    Further to that comment, I see that Vijay Singh uses a crosshanded grip for his short game.
    https://www.golfchannel.com/video/vijay-singh-cross-handed-grip-tip-short-game-magic

  39. I can’t decide if it would be better to have lived a full life and die now or be young and die in 70 years. On the one hand, if you died now, you would be spared from seeing the coming globalist suppression of everything interesting in life. On the other hand, you would be dying just at a time when everything seems hopeless, which is a real downer.

  40. Steve,
    You’re a math nerd. Have you tracked your own coverage of obits and deaths to see if they are increasing? Talking about other people’s deaths is a real sign of old age.

  41. @Trinity
    @Ganderson

    Darrell Evans had a career batting average of .248, are you kidding me? Darrell hit 400 homers, 414 to be exact, but so did Dave Kingman who hit 442 dingers but batted a paltry .238. Dwight Evans was a helluva fielder and won 8 gold gloves, he was good but not HOF material. It took Ron Santo and Jim Rice years to get to the HOF, both guys were a couple levels above Darrell and a level above Dwight.

    Replies: @njguy73, @Ganderson, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Up2Drew

    So why do we like Darrell Evans?

    Because he gets on base.

  42. @Steve Sailer
    @Abolish_public_education

    They may also have brought in the fences for Aaron's last few years. The 1973 Braves had 3 guys who hit 40 homers -- Aaron, Darrel Evans (who was a good player), and Davy Johnson (who wasn't).

    Replies: @Ganderson, @Corvinus, @Paul Jolliffe

    http://seamheads.com/baseballgauge/blog/?p=656

    The common practice in adjusting for ballpark is to take the ballpark factor, which estimates how a park influences run scoring compared to league average, and apply to it to each hitter. However, all players receive the same adjustment, no matter if they bat left-handed or right-handed, or if they are fly ball, ground ball, pull or spray hitters, etc. The assumption that all types of hitters should be treated the same is what I’m attempting to correct.

    Hank Aaron played his career at two parks, Milwaukee County Stadium and Atlanta-Fulton County Stadium. Milwaukee favored pitchers in terms of the long ball, but Atlanta was known as “The Launching Pad” and had a big affect on home runs. Naturally, he sees a drop in his home run total, but also an increase in singles, doubles and triples. The overall level of production didn’t change much after neutralization, just how it changed.

    • Troll: YetAnotherAnon
  43. Old Jesse Jackson joke:
    “Reverend Jackson. What do you think about the Beirut situation?”
    “Dat Beirut…he good, but Hank Aaron hit more homeruns.”

    Indeed he did. RIP Mr. Aaron.

  44. @R.G. Camara
    Big City media bias and East Coast media bias. Reminds me of what happened to Robin Yount. Yount played on the obscure Brewers his entire career, and despite winning multiple MVP awards and being an outstanding athlete for decades (went from Gold Glove-caliber shortstop to Gold Glove-caliber centerfielder), could walk into any room on the East Coast and not be recognized. If Yount had played in a big media market, especially on the East Coast, he'd be celebrated as one of the greatest athletes of the 20th Century.

    Anyway, Bonds had to cheat heavily to beat Aaron, much like Biden did with Trump. That's all you need to know about how great Aaron's numbers were. As Reggie Jackson said, if you tried to beat Aaron's homerun record by hitting 35 year for 20 years, you'd still be 55 short. Aaron is still the all-time homerun king.

    Also, funny story about Aaron: he grew up hitting "cross-handed". He would bat right-handed as a kid, but his left hand would be on top of his right hand when he swung, instead of the natural other way around (try it on yourself to see how awkward it is). Someone got in his ear as a teen/early 20s and got him to switch his hands up so his right hand was on top of his left, but still kept him batting right handed.

    In his autobio I read as a kid, Aaron wondered why no one ever just turned him around and made him bat left-handed, which would have gotten rid of his cross-handedness and also given him the left-handed batter's advantage.

    But I think Aaron did ok, doncha think? He's one of those top 6 -7outfielders kids argue about putting on the all-time team they have in their minds (Cobb, Ruth, Williams, Musial, Mays, Aaron + whatever outfielder the kid particularly idolizes). RIP.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Trinity, @Ed Case, @Desiderius, @AceDeuce, @E. Rekshun, @kaganovitch, @Truth

    Having taught myself the shoot basketball left-handed after blowing out my right arm throwing too many early curveballs my suspicion is that Aaron’s crosshanded training ended up being to his benefit in the long run. Helped him get a feel for how to generate maximal leverage at the point of contact.

  45. At least we still have Larry King.

    • Thanks: kaganovitch
    • LOL: ScarletNumber
  46. @Wake up
    The true home run king and greatest baseball player of All Time..... Babe Ruth.

    Replies: @Ron Mexico, @Trinity

    Corvinus can make an argument about “true home run king,” but no counter argument can be made about “best baseball player” EVAH! How many World Series games did Aaron pitch in? Win? Mays? Williams?

    • Agree: flyingtiger
  47. @Steve Sailer
    @JohnnyD

    Fans assumed that the Milwaukee County Stadium must be a hitter's park because Eddie Matthews and Hank Aaron hit so well in the 1950s, but it was actually a pitcher's park. Matthews and Aaron were in fact historic hitters. So when Aaron got to Atlanta, which was a hitter's park, he just kept going in his 30s at the same nominal pace as in his 20s, especially after game got back to normal stats after the 1968 Year of the Pitcher.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Barnard

    All the kvetching about Aaron needing more at bats or whatever ignores him playing right through the worst of the late 60s hitting drought. Similar problem with Rose whose doubles numbers during those years are remarkable.

  48. @Trinity
    @R.G. Camara

    Aaron definitely suffered by playing in a small market at the time TO A DEGREE, of course Atlanta has grown exponentially since Aaron left to play his final 2 seasons in Milwaukee in 1975-76. Atlanta probably had a metro area of slightly more than 2 million people during Aaron's playing days in the city, and it has nearly tripled in population since then. Still it suffers from being a Southern city because of a history of Northeastern/Boston-Washington corridor and West Coast bias. Hell even Philadelphia, Baltimore and D.C. suffer from New York bias and to a lesser degree from stuffy Boston fans and newspapers. Atlanta is on the same level as Washington, Philly, Boston, Houston, Dallas, and Miami now, but you would never know it listening to the media, hell it could be a level above Boston and Philly. It has hosted the Olympics, has one of the world's largest and busiest airports, a skyline that is every bit as impressive if not more so than Dallas, Miami,Philly, and definitely more impressive than Boston and Atlanta has 16 companies based here in Fortune 500. Not exactly the overgrown cow town it was when Aaron played here.

    Aaron's home run record has a lot to do with his length of stay, the amount of plate appearances and at bats, it has already been mentioned that Aaron never hit more than 47 home runs in a single season whereas Ruth topped out at 61 home runs in a 154 game season, Mays hit 52 home runs for a high, Ted Williams spent some of his prime years in the military and while he topped out at 43 homers for a season high, his career batting average was .344 to Aaron's .305. Teddy only batted 7,706 plus times and managed 521 home runs where it took Aaron 12, 364 at bats to reach 755 home runs. Mickey Mantle? Mantle had 8,102 at bats and finished with 536 homers and topped over 50 hrs in a single season twice. Lest we forget Mantle played a good deal of his career with a bum leg as well. Babe Ruth? Hit over 50 homers 4 times in his career, his high was 61 for a season, a record that stood for a long time until Roger Maris took 162 game season to break it. Ruth only batted 8,399 times to Aaron's 12,364 times at bat, that is roughly 4,000 more at bats than Ruth had but he only bested the Bambino's record by 755-714, a mere 41 home runs. Aaron was never the all around player that a prime Mickey Mantle or Willie Mays were, and that his lack of coverage had as much to do with that as his playing in the Deep South and a small market at the time. To be honest as great as Aaron was, his numbers are below Williams, Ruth, Mantle, Mays and steroid Barry Bonds.

    Replies: @woody weaver, @Dr. DoomNGloom, @AceDeuce, @Anon

    What never ceases to amaze me about Babe Ruth was his 94-46 record as a pitcher and 2.28 ERA. Some of the most productive years as a player were spent on the mound. That makes his 8399 at-bats to reach 714 home runs even more impressive. Looking at Ruth’s pitching statistics, Ruth twice won more than twenty games and pitched more than 300 innings. Ruth is the game’s greatest player hands down. Hank Aaron is certainly a top five or ten great but Ruth excelled on both the mound and the field which places him at the top.

    • Agree: Trinity
    • Thanks: bomag
    • Replies: @Pat Kittle
    @woody weaver

    One explanation I heard for Yankee Stadium being called "the house that Ruth built" was its short right field (296' at the foul line), with a 4' fence.

    Ruth batted left-handed.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

  49. @BB753
    "Aaron had himself publicly inoculated with the Moderna vaccine on January 5."

    Wuflu vaccines are working like magic.

    Replies: @Morton's toes, @Dumbo

    “It was supposed to be used to inspire African-Americans to take the vaccine. Two weeks after taking it, he has died.”

    https://noqreport.com/2021/01/22/mlb-legend-hank-aaron-dies-two-weeks-after-getting-covid-19-vaccine/

    Well… Of course “correlation is not causation”, but I guess this won’t “inspire” many African-Americans to take it…

  50. @R.G. Camara
    Big City media bias and East Coast media bias. Reminds me of what happened to Robin Yount. Yount played on the obscure Brewers his entire career, and despite winning multiple MVP awards and being an outstanding athlete for decades (went from Gold Glove-caliber shortstop to Gold Glove-caliber centerfielder), could walk into any room on the East Coast and not be recognized. If Yount had played in a big media market, especially on the East Coast, he'd be celebrated as one of the greatest athletes of the 20th Century.

    Anyway, Bonds had to cheat heavily to beat Aaron, much like Biden did with Trump. That's all you need to know about how great Aaron's numbers were. As Reggie Jackson said, if you tried to beat Aaron's homerun record by hitting 35 year for 20 years, you'd still be 55 short. Aaron is still the all-time homerun king.

    Also, funny story about Aaron: he grew up hitting "cross-handed". He would bat right-handed as a kid, but his left hand would be on top of his right hand when he swung, instead of the natural other way around (try it on yourself to see how awkward it is). Someone got in his ear as a teen/early 20s and got him to switch his hands up so his right hand was on top of his left, but still kept him batting right handed.

    In his autobio I read as a kid, Aaron wondered why no one ever just turned him around and made him bat left-handed, which would have gotten rid of his cross-handedness and also given him the left-handed batter's advantage.

    But I think Aaron did ok, doncha think? He's one of those top 6 -7outfielders kids argue about putting on the all-time team they have in their minds (Cobb, Ruth, Williams, Musial, Mays, Aaron + whatever outfielder the kid particularly idolizes). RIP.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Trinity, @Ed Case, @Desiderius, @AceDeuce, @E. Rekshun, @kaganovitch, @Truth

    Aaron needed 4000 more at bats than Ruth to hit 41 more home runs. His career batting average was 37 points lower than Ruth’s. Ruth was a HOF-caliber pitcher in addition to his other exploits. Aaron was in two World Series, winning one. Ruth was in 10, winning 7, and his personal postseason stats were among the best ever.

    • Replies: @R.G. Camara
    @AceDeuce

    Although I agree Ruth > Aaron, some points to consider:

    1. WS appearances means nothing in baseball as to an individual's abilities. A person could play on lousy teams for 20 years and still be HOF worthy.

    2. During Ruth's time, balls that bounced in one bounce over the fence counted as homeruns. Today, by Aaron's time, that's a ground-rule double.

    3. Ruth had a short right-field porch in the Bronx and Lou Gehrig/other great Yankee sluggers hitting behind him, giving him a lot better chance at hitting home runs. Aaron had Eddie Matthews and a big stadium in Milwaukee during his prime years.

    4. Ruth was the innovator of the home run hitter, and it took several years for the dead ball pitchers to be able to adjust to a strategy of avoiding homeruns.

    5. Ruth's home runs were magnified by the rabbit ball introduced specifically to increase home runs. By Aaron's time, the rabbit ball was gone.

    Replies: @I, Libertine, @Nicholas Stix, @AceDeuce

  51. Speaking of the recently deceased- I see that Larry King has gone to meet his maker. 7-8 marriages. I could never understand those men & women addicted to multiple marriages. 2 is OK, even 3.

    But over 4, c’mon, this is too much ….

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Speaking of the recently deceased- I see that Larry King has gone to meet his maker. 7-8 marriages. I could never understand those men & women addicted to multiple marriages. 2 is OK, even 3.

    As the old saying goes "The triumph of hope over experience."

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe

  52. Aaron had the misfortune of having played in a small market. As a result, he never got the publicity that Mantle and Mays got. Which is too bad, because he was one helluva player!!

  53. @Steve Sailer
    @Mike Tre

    They help in playing 6 games per week for 6 months.

    The military handed out a lot of uppers during WWII. American athletes kept using them after the war to concentrate. British kids used them to go dancing.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Mike Tre, @Desiderius

    So not out of the question that Aaron and others of his day made use of them.

  54. @Morton's toes
    @BB753

    This is like the greatest throwaway statistic on wikipedia. From Tommie Aaron's (d. 1984) page.


    Aaron hit a total of 13 major league home runs, with eight of them coming in his first year of 1962. Along with his brother's then Major League record 755, they hold the Major League record for the most career home runs by two brothers (768).
     

    Replies: @Anon, @Prester John, @I, Libertine

    Reminds me of the late Hot Rod Hundley’s quip about combining with Elgin Baylor for 78 points in a Laker game back in 1960.

    Hundley scored 7.

  55. @Steve Sailer
    @Mike Tre

    They help in playing 6 games per week for 6 months.

    The military handed out a lot of uppers during WWII. American athletes kept using them after the war to concentrate. British kids used them to go dancing.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Mike Tre, @Desiderius

    What effect would the Real Coke have on Ruth?

  56. OT:
    The energy of vegan viking bro grows. He is now everywhere, it’s like Joker.

  57. @Steve Sailer
    @JohnnyD

    Fans assumed that the Milwaukee County Stadium must be a hitter's park because Eddie Matthews and Hank Aaron hit so well in the 1950s, but it was actually a pitcher's park. Matthews and Aaron were in fact historic hitters. So when Aaron got to Atlanta, which was a hitter's park, he just kept going in his 30s at the same nominal pace as in his 20s, especially after game got back to normal stats after the 1968 Year of the Pitcher.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Barnard

    The four expansion teams added in 1969 no doubt helped hitters too, as it would have significantly diluted pitching talent for the 1969 season. If you assume 10 pitchers to a roster, there would have been 200 pitchers in 1968 and 240 in 1969. That is a lot of guys who were stuck in AAA suddenly getting a shot at the big leagues.

  58. @Wake up
    The true home run king and greatest baseball player of All Time..... Babe Ruth.

    Replies: @Ron Mexico, @Trinity

    Ruth was the REAL KING OF HOME RUNS, however, I give the best all around player of all time to either Barry Bonds or Willie Mays. Steroids aided Bonds but he was a five tool player when he was a skinny kid in Pittsburgh. Bonds would have hit in the high 500’s or low 600s had he never touched a PED. He had it all, glove, speed, arm, power, just like Willie Mays. PEDs can only help so much when it comes to a skill sport like baseball. Greg Luzinski who played for the Phillies was built like a brick shithouse and he never put up the HUGE numbers, good numbers but he couldn’t even match the great Mike Schmidt. Big polish guy, who I don’t even think lifted weights much less take PEDs.

    • Replies: @Ron Mexico
    @Trinity

    The Bull was massive head to toe. I think the PEDs started in So Cal with Brian Downing and his lifting buddy, Lance Parrish.

    , @Marty
    @Trinity

    Barry’s arm was well below average. Well known story about Bill Virdon coaching him to camouflage it with a quick release. When Jim Leyland famously blew up at Bonds in spring training, it was because Bonds was ignoring Virdon. But he could jump, like Rickey and Griffey.

    Replies: @Trinity, @ScarletNumber

  59. @Trinity
    @R.G. Camara

    Aaron definitely suffered by playing in a small market at the time TO A DEGREE, of course Atlanta has grown exponentially since Aaron left to play his final 2 seasons in Milwaukee in 1975-76. Atlanta probably had a metro area of slightly more than 2 million people during Aaron's playing days in the city, and it has nearly tripled in population since then. Still it suffers from being a Southern city because of a history of Northeastern/Boston-Washington corridor and West Coast bias. Hell even Philadelphia, Baltimore and D.C. suffer from New York bias and to a lesser degree from stuffy Boston fans and newspapers. Atlanta is on the same level as Washington, Philly, Boston, Houston, Dallas, and Miami now, but you would never know it listening to the media, hell it could be a level above Boston and Philly. It has hosted the Olympics, has one of the world's largest and busiest airports, a skyline that is every bit as impressive if not more so than Dallas, Miami,Philly, and definitely more impressive than Boston and Atlanta has 16 companies based here in Fortune 500. Not exactly the overgrown cow town it was when Aaron played here.

    Aaron's home run record has a lot to do with his length of stay, the amount of plate appearances and at bats, it has already been mentioned that Aaron never hit more than 47 home runs in a single season whereas Ruth topped out at 61 home runs in a 154 game season, Mays hit 52 home runs for a high, Ted Williams spent some of his prime years in the military and while he topped out at 43 homers for a season high, his career batting average was .344 to Aaron's .305. Teddy only batted 7,706 plus times and managed 521 home runs where it took Aaron 12, 364 at bats to reach 755 home runs. Mickey Mantle? Mantle had 8,102 at bats and finished with 536 homers and topped over 50 hrs in a single season twice. Lest we forget Mantle played a good deal of his career with a bum leg as well. Babe Ruth? Hit over 50 homers 4 times in his career, his high was 61 for a season, a record that stood for a long time until Roger Maris took 162 game season to break it. Ruth only batted 8,399 times to Aaron's 12,364 times at bat, that is roughly 4,000 more at bats than Ruth had but he only bested the Bambino's record by 755-714, a mere 41 home runs. Aaron was never the all around player that a prime Mickey Mantle or Willie Mays were, and that his lack of coverage had as much to do with that as his playing in the Deep South and a small market at the time. To be honest as great as Aaron was, his numbers are below Williams, Ruth, Mantle, Mays and steroid Barry Bonds.

    Replies: @woody weaver, @Dr. DoomNGloom, @AceDeuce, @Anon

    The best ball player is the one in the line-up.
    Aaron was remarkably durable and effective. 40 HR in his age 39 season is remarkable.
    Peak value, the eye-ball test favors Mantle, but the Mick had chronic bone issues and a drinking problem.

    I always felt Mays fielding was a bit overrated, especially his throws which were strong, but not consistently accurate and not always to the correct base. Nonetheless, Mays played center and covered quite a bit of ground. Aaron was reliably excellent in right field. Like with his bat, he seldom made you saw “Wow” (think of some famous throws by Mays and Clemente), but looking back you realize it would be very hard to find someone as good or better.

    Aaron struck me as likable in that he had dry humor, fairly low key, and appreciated his status without being overwhelmed by it. He never seemed larger than life.

    86 years is a good run. RIP.

  60. @Trinity
    @Ganderson

    Darrell Evans had a career batting average of .248, are you kidding me? Darrell hit 400 homers, 414 to be exact, but so did Dave Kingman who hit 442 dingers but batted a paltry .238. Dwight Evans was a helluva fielder and won 8 gold gloves, he was good but not HOF material. It took Ron Santo and Jim Rice years to get to the HOF, both guys were a couple levels above Darrell and a level above Dwight.

    Replies: @njguy73, @Ganderson, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Up2Drew

    I was not entirely serious- my quick and dirty look at Darrell’s numbers suggests a very good player- high OBP, power, long, career. Dunno about defense. He doesn’t do all that well on the Keltner list, and I don’t think, most while he was active saw him as a HOF type player. I think he’s in what I like to call the “Kent Hrbek zone”, a level down from the hall.

    As for Rice, I never thought he was a HOF player- he had one monster season that he rode to enshrinement. Both Evans’ had higher lifetime WARs, and Dwight was a far superior defensive player. For much of Rice’s career he was the third best player in his team’s outfield.

    Santo is a legit HOFer.

  61. @R.G. Camara
    Big City media bias and East Coast media bias. Reminds me of what happened to Robin Yount. Yount played on the obscure Brewers his entire career, and despite winning multiple MVP awards and being an outstanding athlete for decades (went from Gold Glove-caliber shortstop to Gold Glove-caliber centerfielder), could walk into any room on the East Coast and not be recognized. If Yount had played in a big media market, especially on the East Coast, he'd be celebrated as one of the greatest athletes of the 20th Century.

    Anyway, Bonds had to cheat heavily to beat Aaron, much like Biden did with Trump. That's all you need to know about how great Aaron's numbers were. As Reggie Jackson said, if you tried to beat Aaron's homerun record by hitting 35 year for 20 years, you'd still be 55 short. Aaron is still the all-time homerun king.

    Also, funny story about Aaron: he grew up hitting "cross-handed". He would bat right-handed as a kid, but his left hand would be on top of his right hand when he swung, instead of the natural other way around (try it on yourself to see how awkward it is). Someone got in his ear as a teen/early 20s and got him to switch his hands up so his right hand was on top of his left, but still kept him batting right handed.

    In his autobio I read as a kid, Aaron wondered why no one ever just turned him around and made him bat left-handed, which would have gotten rid of his cross-handedness and also given him the left-handed batter's advantage.

    But I think Aaron did ok, doncha think? He's one of those top 6 -7outfielders kids argue about putting on the all-time team they have in their minds (Cobb, Ruth, Williams, Musial, Mays, Aaron + whatever outfielder the kid particularly idolizes). RIP.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Trinity, @Ed Case, @Desiderius, @AceDeuce, @E. Rekshun, @kaganovitch, @Truth

    He’s one of those top 6 -7 outfielders kids argue about putting on the all-time team they have in their minds (Cobb, Ruth, Williams, Musial, Mays, Aaron + whatever outfielder the kid particularly idolizes).

    Yaz.

  62. Home runs per at bat kings.

    Mark McGwire 10.61
    Babe Ruth 11.76
    Bonds 12.92
    Jim Thome 13.76 * I believe Thome was natural as well
    Ralph Kiner 14.11

    I mentioned Mays, Mantle, and Ted Williams earlier and I will add Aaron. These guys were further down the list.

    Ted Williams tied Harmon Killebrew at 14.22
    Mickey Mantle 15.12
    Aaron 16.38
    Mays 16.44

    Is there really any doubt who the REAL home run king was? Also Ruth started out as a pitcher, a pretty good one at that, how many dingers did that cost him. Like I said it took Aaron 4,000 more at bats to barely beat Ruth by 41 home runs. At a ratio of a home run every 11.76 at bats, you do the math.

    • Replies: @Deckin
    @Trinity

    I think you mean 'bats per home run'

    , @R.G. Camara
    @Trinity


    Also Ruth started out as a pitcher, a pretty good one at that, how many dingers did that cost him.
     
    Not many. Remember, Ruth spent his off-days from pitching trying to change his swing to an uppercut and start hitting homeruns. He'd been schooled in the deadball era ways, it took him a bit to fix it.

    Also, you don't notice that Ruth's opposing pitchers had to adjust to his style versus all the other deadball, slash-and-bunt players, and how difficult that was for them, especially when the rabbit ball came in. It would be like if every NFL team played run-only for decades then all of a sudden Tom Brady walked onto the field and started throwing passes downfield; it would take teams a while to adjust to both the radically different offense and also the fact that it was a extremely talented, HOF player doing the offense maneuver. In such an era, we'd expect Brady's numbers to be super-human (more than they are now), as we should Ruth.
    , @R.G. Camara
    @Trinity


    Also Ruth started out as a pitcher, a pretty good one at that, how many dingers did that cost him.
     
    Not many. Remember, Ruth spent his off-days from pitching trying to change his swing to an uppercut and start hitting homeruns. He'd been schooled in the deadball era ways, it took him a bit to fix it.

    Also, you don't notice that Ruth's opposing pitchers had to adjust to his style versus all the other deadball, slash-and-bunt players, and how difficult that was for them, especially when the rabbit ball came in. It would be like if every NFL team played run-only for decades then all of a sudden Tom Brady walked onto the field and started throwing passes downfield; it would take teams a while to adjust to both the radically different offense and also the fact that it was a extremely talented, HOF player doing the offense maneuver. In such an era, we'd expect Brady's numbers to be super-human (more than they are now), as we should Ruth.
  63. @anon
    And Steve once again sticks his head in the sand about what killed this man.

    Replies: @anon

    Incoming, JackD and his sockpuppet army with 5,000 words of boomercope for your even implying one negative thing about this vaccine.

    HOW DARE YOU

  64. I like to listen to MLB games on the radio if I am driving a long distance by myself. Don’t care who the teams are but the announcer and sidekick need to be top rate. Aaron’s prowess increased with a move from a”pitcher’s park” to a “hitter’s park.’ That’s one glaring problem with baseball, distance base to base, or mound to home are standard. Distance from the plate to a wall, well whatever fits the park. RIP Hank.

    • Replies: @prosa123
    @Buffalo Joe

    It's actually better in some ways that ballparks aren't standardized. It makes the sport more interesting.

  65. Anon[334] • Disclaimer says:
    @Steve Sailer
    @R.G. Camara

    I don't have any evidence that Aaron ever touched PEDs, but pitcher Tom House, who was on the Braves from 1971-1975, admits to juicing.

    Steroid use was more erratic and regional back then so it's hard to say for sure. In baseball, it clearly went up in the 1990s, suggesting most ballplayers weren't using up through the 1980s.

    But I'd guess that a lot of famous athletes in Southern California around 50 years ago at least tried them. E.g., Wilt Chamberlain added 40 pounds of muscle after being traded to LA in 1968 and spending the summer at Muscle Beach with the bodybuilders. Would Wilt, who was curious and easily bored and always looking for a new self-improvement project, have tried this drug his new friends at Muscle Beach swore by? Sure. Would O.J. Simpson have tried what the weight men on his USC track and field team recommended? I've never heard anything about OJ and steroids, but the thought isn't exactly shocking. How about Don Sutton? His nickname was "Black & Decker" for scuffing the ball. Would he try a few pills? I dunno.

    Replies: @Mike Tre, @R.G. Camara, @Nicholas Stix, @Anon, @ScarletNumber

    Lots of circumstantial evidence that Aaron was roiding during his last few years in Atlanta (1969-1973):
    -Tom House steroid remarks-many players were using
    -1973 baseball drug report (buried in the Mitchell report)-astonishing number of players using steroids.
    -Aaron’s ridiculous HR/AB ratio for an older player
    -Davey Johnson ridiculous HR number in 1973
    -Steep decline post 1973-players were warned about the dangers of steroids by doctors.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Anon

    I pointed out in the first paragraph that Aaron died a half month after being inoculated with the Moderna vaccine.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

  66. Speaking of underappreciated baseball players, and this guy played with the Chicago Cubs, the third largest market in the country at the time, Billy Williams. A helluva player, and Ron Santo took forever to get into the HOF. Playing in New York definitely helps a player, Earl The Pearl Monroe didn’t become real famous nationwide until he left the Baltimore Bullets to play for the Knicks. Earl will always be a Baltimore Bullet in my book. Joe Namath vs. Ken Stabler? Look at the numbers, and like Santo, Stabler had to die to get in the NFL HOF. Stabler spent the bulk of his career playing in a small market in Oakland and in the South in Houston and New Orleans, ( New Orleans yet another small market) in his final years. Namath’s numbers don’t match up with Stabler’s numbers, Namath barely completed half of his passes thrown. NYC, LA, and even relatively small Boston, (was struck by how small Boston seemed when I visited there) athletes receive more ink than other athletes. Imagine if Johnny Bench had played with the Yankees? When the Yankees played the Reds in the 1976 World Series there were retarded East Coast (mostly New York sportswriters comparing Thurman Munson to Johnny Bench.) Bench compared to Munson? Like comparing a juicy steak to hamburger.

    • Replies: @Ganderson
    @Trinity

    Munson was a good player. Your central point stands- Bench is in the conversation for best ever.

  67. The average person who works for a living does more humanity than some arrogant negro..

  68. @Trinity
    @R.G. Camara

    Aaron definitely suffered by playing in a small market at the time TO A DEGREE, of course Atlanta has grown exponentially since Aaron left to play his final 2 seasons in Milwaukee in 1975-76. Atlanta probably had a metro area of slightly more than 2 million people during Aaron's playing days in the city, and it has nearly tripled in population since then. Still it suffers from being a Southern city because of a history of Northeastern/Boston-Washington corridor and West Coast bias. Hell even Philadelphia, Baltimore and D.C. suffer from New York bias and to a lesser degree from stuffy Boston fans and newspapers. Atlanta is on the same level as Washington, Philly, Boston, Houston, Dallas, and Miami now, but you would never know it listening to the media, hell it could be a level above Boston and Philly. It has hosted the Olympics, has one of the world's largest and busiest airports, a skyline that is every bit as impressive if not more so than Dallas, Miami,Philly, and definitely more impressive than Boston and Atlanta has 16 companies based here in Fortune 500. Not exactly the overgrown cow town it was when Aaron played here.

    Aaron's home run record has a lot to do with his length of stay, the amount of plate appearances and at bats, it has already been mentioned that Aaron never hit more than 47 home runs in a single season whereas Ruth topped out at 61 home runs in a 154 game season, Mays hit 52 home runs for a high, Ted Williams spent some of his prime years in the military and while he topped out at 43 homers for a season high, his career batting average was .344 to Aaron's .305. Teddy only batted 7,706 plus times and managed 521 home runs where it took Aaron 12, 364 at bats to reach 755 home runs. Mickey Mantle? Mantle had 8,102 at bats and finished with 536 homers and topped over 50 hrs in a single season twice. Lest we forget Mantle played a good deal of his career with a bum leg as well. Babe Ruth? Hit over 50 homers 4 times in his career, his high was 61 for a season, a record that stood for a long time until Roger Maris took 162 game season to break it. Ruth only batted 8,399 times to Aaron's 12,364 times at bat, that is roughly 4,000 more at bats than Ruth had but he only bested the Bambino's record by 755-714, a mere 41 home runs. Aaron was never the all around player that a prime Mickey Mantle or Willie Mays were, and that his lack of coverage had as much to do with that as his playing in the Deep South and a small market at the time. To be honest as great as Aaron was, his numbers are below Williams, Ruth, Mantle, Mays and steroid Barry Bonds.

    Replies: @woody weaver, @Dr. DoomNGloom, @AceDeuce, @Anon

    Ruth topped out at 60 home runs (1927), not 61.

    BTW, Ruth’s lifetime BA was .342.

  69. @Steve Sailer
    @Abolish_public_education

    They may also have brought in the fences for Aaron's last few years. The 1973 Braves had 3 guys who hit 40 homers -- Aaron, Darrel Evans (who was a good player), and Davy Johnson (who wasn't).

    Replies: @Ganderson, @Corvinus, @Paul Jolliffe

    Darrell Evans spent his last few years in Detroit at Tiger Stadium with its short upper-deck porch in right field. I myself in 1987 saw Evans crush a bomb into the seats out there – it was a shot. He was the first 40-year old to hit 30 home runs.
    Back then, 30 was a lot.

    • Replies: @Ron Mexico
    @Paul Jolliffe

    Surprisingly he only hit 16 during the Roar of 84, but 40 the next year.

  70. @Buffalo Joe
    I like to listen to MLB games on the radio if I am driving a long distance by myself. Don't care who the teams are but the announcer and sidekick need to be top rate. Aaron's prowess increased with a move from a"pitcher's park" to a "hitter's park.' That's one glaring problem with baseball, distance base to base, or mound to home are standard. Distance from the plate to a wall, well whatever fits the park. RIP Hank.

    Replies: @prosa123

    It’s actually better in some ways that ballparks aren’t standardized. It makes the sport more interesting.

    • Agree: ScarletNumber
  71. Anybody who hears the name “Bonds” and “home runs” together without immediately stuffing Henry Aaron down their throats is not a real fan of the game.

    RIP.

  72. @JohnnyD
    What's fascinating about Aaron is that he never really put up monster numbers in a single season (his career high for home runs was 47). He broke Ruth's record by averaging thirty-three home runs over twenty-three seasons. That's impressive longevity and consistency.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @nebulafox

    Aaron was the Tokugawa Ieyasu to Ruth’s Oda Nobunaga.

  73. I’m really upset by this news. First cuz it’s Hank Aaron, second because of the vaccine.

    This sucks.

  74. Hammerin Hank played 8 seasons of 154 games before getting to 162 games, so his numbers are a little better than they appear. that’s 64 games difference.

    but also as stated, MLB has the issue that there is no standard park, which fudges all pitching and hitting numbers somewhat.

  75. @Trinity
    @Ganderson

    Darrell Evans had a career batting average of .248, are you kidding me? Darrell hit 400 homers, 414 to be exact, but so did Dave Kingman who hit 442 dingers but batted a paltry .238. Dwight Evans was a helluva fielder and won 8 gold gloves, he was good but not HOF material. It took Ron Santo and Jim Rice years to get to the HOF, both guys were a couple levels above Darrell and a level above Dwight.

    Replies: @njguy73, @Ganderson, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Up2Drew

    I have thought long and hard about this for a long, long time.

    As good as they were, both Jim Rice and Ron Santo, and others of their ilk, have no right to be in the HOF, which is turning into the hall of very good. Neither had 500 HRs, nor had 3,000 H’s. A retired players status don’t suddenly improve 20, 30 yrs after he stopped playing. Politics and popularity is what it is, pure and simple.

    For example, a true HOF should have a continuum of players. You don’t have to think about the names, you don’t have a pause a la “Yeah, but this guy over here was just as good, why isn’t he in?” If Ron Santo is in the HOF, so should Dave Parker, Al Oliver, and Dave Kingman. A case can be made for these types of players, it’s just that because Santo and Rice played in markets with a sizable MLB fan base and have political connections with the national MLB media at large, they happened to get in while others did not. Ron Santo was never on people’s lips as the greatest ever to play MLB during the era of which he played. The fact that some retired players can lobby, and have allies in the media lobby for them to get in after decades post retirement says all one needs to know that they are NOT HOF material. Else, they’d not only be first ballot HOF, it would be so obvious. No one has to think or pause about whether or not the name Stan Musial belongs in the HOF. Ron Santo, it’s like “WHO?” And that’s an obvious clue that the HOF has turned into the Hall of okay, sorta, kinda, you know, sure why not. And not a secular Valhallah of greatness.

    The names Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Lou Gerhig, Hank Aaron, Willie Mays all go together. Each name can be compared with one another in the sense that they are at the same level of greatness. Every single name can be easily compared with one another in the sense that they are all the greatest of the great. Within the top 1%, there is a tenth of a tenth of a tenth of 1% (within the top 1% as a whole). Jim Rice and Ron Santo may indeed be in the top one percent of MLBers to have played the game, but they are not in the same percentile as Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron, and everyone knows it. Therefore they don’t belong in the HOF.

    Every player name inducted must be compared to one another in the sense that…Are they truly at the same level of greatness? If the answer is no, then they don’t belong in the HOF, pure and simple.

    In the NFL this is easily grasped.

    On Defense, the names easily compared are:

    Chuck Bednarik, Dick Butkus, Alan Page, Joe Greene, Jack Lambert, Ronnie Lott, Lawrence Taylor, Rod Woodson, Ray Lewis.

    All these names, no matter the era of which they played, can easily be compared with one another in the sense that they are that guy, the most dominant of the most dominant to ever played the game. Like Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron, they have transcended their sport itself. Ron Santo and Jim Rice never transcended anything, and they sure don’t belong in the same sentence with Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron.

    And that’s the true and only standard: do all the names in the HOF go together? Can they be readily compared with one another as the greatest ever to play during their era? Not just good, not just okay, not just dominant for a couple yrs, but dominant to the point that they were the ones talked about, and everyone knew that they were the greatest ever to play the game (during their era). They had a direct impact on the sport itself.

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Yoji, lots of politics I think in HOF membership. Who can explain to me why Marv Levy is in the NFL HOF ? Jim Kelly is a puzzlement too. Nice comment.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Truth

    , @Ganderson
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    See my comment above, I agree with you about Rice, ( who, as I point out above was for much of his career the third best OFer on his own team.) and I’m too lazy to go back and compile Santo’s case, but at least part of the issue for Santo is his position, and the number of third basemen in the Hall. And, I don’t think the standard is ,” is he as good as Willie Mays” . Then you have no one, or maybe one player every five years go in. If that’s what baseball wants, great, I don’t really care. To use an example I’ve used often, no one would suggest that (well, perhaps you would) Harmon Killebrew was not Cooperstown material. Was he as good as Mantle, Mays, Aaron, etc.? Of course not- he’s still a Hall of Famer.

    Much of the HOF inflation was done by the old veterans committees that put a lot of their pals from the 30s and 40s in- guys like Heinie Manush, Freddie Lindstrom, and Leo Durocher; although in Leo’s case he certainly was famous!

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

  76. @Sandy Berger's Socks
    Remarkable consistency.

    Basically averaged 37 homers and 110 RBI for 20 plus years.

    Greatest right hand hitter of all time.

    Mike Trout need another 8 or 9 good years to even get close.

    RIP.

    Replies: @prime noticer

    “Mike Trout need another 8 or 9 good years to even get close.”

    i would give it 50-50 odds at best. possible, but not likely. he misses about 1 month per season every year due to minor injuries. so far they haven’t added up, but they might eventually. like Tom Brady missing an entire season in his prime to a blown out knee. Trout keeps missing out on the MVP by like 3 weeks of playing stats that he doesn’t rack up.

    also as usual, pitching was worse when Hank Aaron played. not as bad as 100 years ago but not as good as today. .340 is about the best you can hit now. the last time somebody hit .350 was 10 years ago.

    on the other hand, the league clearly changed the baseball slightly so it travels further in the air. so there’s that.

  77. Anon[369] • Disclaimer says:
    @Trinity
    @R.G. Camara

    Aaron definitely suffered by playing in a small market at the time TO A DEGREE, of course Atlanta has grown exponentially since Aaron left to play his final 2 seasons in Milwaukee in 1975-76. Atlanta probably had a metro area of slightly more than 2 million people during Aaron's playing days in the city, and it has nearly tripled in population since then. Still it suffers from being a Southern city because of a history of Northeastern/Boston-Washington corridor and West Coast bias. Hell even Philadelphia, Baltimore and D.C. suffer from New York bias and to a lesser degree from stuffy Boston fans and newspapers. Atlanta is on the same level as Washington, Philly, Boston, Houston, Dallas, and Miami now, but you would never know it listening to the media, hell it could be a level above Boston and Philly. It has hosted the Olympics, has one of the world's largest and busiest airports, a skyline that is every bit as impressive if not more so than Dallas, Miami,Philly, and definitely more impressive than Boston and Atlanta has 16 companies based here in Fortune 500. Not exactly the overgrown cow town it was when Aaron played here.

    Aaron's home run record has a lot to do with his length of stay, the amount of plate appearances and at bats, it has already been mentioned that Aaron never hit more than 47 home runs in a single season whereas Ruth topped out at 61 home runs in a 154 game season, Mays hit 52 home runs for a high, Ted Williams spent some of his prime years in the military and while he topped out at 43 homers for a season high, his career batting average was .344 to Aaron's .305. Teddy only batted 7,706 plus times and managed 521 home runs where it took Aaron 12, 364 at bats to reach 755 home runs. Mickey Mantle? Mantle had 8,102 at bats and finished with 536 homers and topped over 50 hrs in a single season twice. Lest we forget Mantle played a good deal of his career with a bum leg as well. Babe Ruth? Hit over 50 homers 4 times in his career, his high was 61 for a season, a record that stood for a long time until Roger Maris took 162 game season to break it. Ruth only batted 8,399 times to Aaron's 12,364 times at bat, that is roughly 4,000 more at bats than Ruth had but he only bested the Bambino's record by 755-714, a mere 41 home runs. Aaron was never the all around player that a prime Mickey Mantle or Willie Mays were, and that his lack of coverage had as much to do with that as his playing in the Deep South and a small market at the time. To be honest as great as Aaron was, his numbers are below Williams, Ruth, Mantle, Mays and steroid Barry Bonds.

    Replies: @woody weaver, @Dr. DoomNGloom, @AceDeuce, @Anon

    Still it suffers from being a Southern city because of a history of Northeastern/Boston-Washington corridor and West Coast bias. Hell even Philadelphia, Baltimore and D.C. suffer from New York bias and to a lesser degree from stuffy Boston fans and newspapers. Atlanta is on the same level as Washington, Philly, Boston, Houston, Dallas, and Miami now, but you would never know it listening to the media, hell it could be a level above Boston and Philly. It has hosted the Olympics, has one of the world’s largest and busiest airports, a skyline that is every bit as impressive if not more so than Dallas, Miami,Philly, and definitely more impressive than Boston and Atlanta has 16 companies based here in Fortune 500. Not exactly the overgrown cow town it was when Aaron played here.

    LOL. Wut??

    Boston/Cambridge is where the intelligentsia come from and/or go to school and/or spend their career in teaching or developing revolutionary breakthroughs in STEM. This won’t ever change. You can be sure you’re not a MOTU (master of the universe) if you haven’t spent at least part of your life in the Boston area.

    There are no doubt more Nobel Laureates in the Boston area than any other city/region in the world. Over 97 of Nobel Laureates are affiliated with MIT (62 of them in science). There are 161 Nobel Laureates affiliated with Harvard (113 in science). Other Boston area schools like Tufts and Boston University each have 3 Nobel Laureates in science affiliated with them.

    • Replies: @Trinity
    @Anon

    Boston is the J-Lo of American major cities. It thinks it is prettier and more talented than it actually is. hahaha. While my birthplace of Baltimore suffers from an inferiority complex, one writer described being in love with Baltimore is like being in love with a girl with a broken nose, Boston natives think too highly of their city. I wasn't impressed at all. IF I had to choose between NYC & Boston circa 1970s to 1980s, I choose NYC in a landslide, I choose neither in 2020. The only people that probably think highly of Boston are people from Boston. lololol.

    , @bomag
    @Anon

    Disagree with your take.

    Atlanta has always had more of a big city vibe: commerce center of the South.

    Boston is far in the shadow of NY as a trading center. Boston has more of a small town, provincial vibe. Its colleges/universities are numerous, but seen as monasteries with strange people in brown robes taking care of dusty books.

  78. @Nicholas Stix
    @Steve Sailer

    I'm not concerned about guys who may have juiced (Nolan Ryan?) during the 1970s and '80s, because anabolic steroids were neither illegal nor banned at the time. And if a juicer from that era were to have continued juicing (Ryan?) after steroids were both made illegal and banned (which was redundant), I have my own grandfather clause, like baseball had for spitballers like Burleigh Grimes.

    Replies: @Mike Tre

    I found this yt channel recently. It has some interesting biographies about notable MLB players:

    • Thanks: Nicholas Stix
  79. @Nicholas Stix
    @Anonymous

    “rest in power”: From one black supremacist moron to another.

    “Hank Aaron Remains Baseball’s Home Run King, but He was also a black supremacist Moron”
    https://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/2021/01/hank-aaron-remains-baseballs-home-run.html

    Replies: @Colin Wright, @Truth

    ‘“Hank Aaron Remains Baseball’s Home Run King, but He was also a black supremacist Moron”’

    Alright in his place then. A lot of blacks are okay — so long as we don’t ask things of them they can’t deliver.

    It’s like me. I’m mighty fine — just so long as you don’t ask me to do a triple flip on the balance beam.

  80. Joe- one of the really great things about satellite radio is listing to games- without the crappy AM reception.

  81. @Mike Tre
    @Steve Sailer

    How effective are amphetamines when playing baseball?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @R.G. Camara, @R.G. Camara, @brutusale, @Swamp Fox

    Some MLB players say that greenies were more important than steroids.

    https://www.razorgator.com/blog/remember-when-everyone-in-the-mlb-was-using-greenies/

    https://sportales.com/blogging/steroids-spitballs-and-greenies-a-baseball-hypocrisy/

    As Jim Bouton wrote in Ball Four: How fabulous are greenies? Very!

    In his 1967 book about the Packers championship season, NFL star Jerry Kramer talked about the amphetamine-spiked “dexy coffee” in the locker room.

  82. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Trinity

    I have thought long and hard about this for a long, long time.

    As good as they were, both Jim Rice and Ron Santo, and others of their ilk, have no right to be in the HOF, which is turning into the hall of very good. Neither had 500 HRs, nor had 3,000 H's. A retired players status don't suddenly improve 20, 30 yrs after he stopped playing. Politics and popularity is what it is, pure and simple.

    For example, a true HOF should have a continuum of players. You don't have to think about the names, you don't have a pause a la "Yeah, but this guy over here was just as good, why isn't he in?" If Ron Santo is in the HOF, so should Dave Parker, Al Oliver, and Dave Kingman. A case can be made for these types of players, it's just that because Santo and Rice played in markets with a sizable MLB fan base and have political connections with the national MLB media at large, they happened to get in while others did not. Ron Santo was never on people's lips as the greatest ever to play MLB during the era of which he played. The fact that some retired players can lobby, and have allies in the media lobby for them to get in after decades post retirement says all one needs to know that they are NOT HOF material. Else, they'd not only be first ballot HOF, it would be so obvious. No one has to think or pause about whether or not the name Stan Musial belongs in the HOF. Ron Santo, it's like "WHO?" And that's an obvious clue that the HOF has turned into the Hall of okay, sorta, kinda, you know, sure why not. And not a secular Valhallah of greatness.

    The names Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Lou Gerhig, Hank Aaron, Willie Mays all go together. Each name can be compared with one another in the sense that they are at the same level of greatness. Every single name can be easily compared with one another in the sense that they are all the greatest of the great. Within the top 1%, there is a tenth of a tenth of a tenth of 1% (within the top 1% as a whole). Jim Rice and Ron Santo may indeed be in the top one percent of MLBers to have played the game, but they are not in the same percentile as Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron, and everyone knows it. Therefore they don't belong in the HOF.

    Every player name inducted must be compared to one another in the sense that...Are they truly at the same level of greatness? If the answer is no, then they don't belong in the HOF, pure and simple.

    In the NFL this is easily grasped.

    On Defense, the names easily compared are:

    Chuck Bednarik, Dick Butkus, Alan Page, Joe Greene, Jack Lambert, Ronnie Lott, Lawrence Taylor, Rod Woodson, Ray Lewis.

    All these names, no matter the era of which they played, can easily be compared with one another in the sense that they are that guy, the most dominant of the most dominant to ever played the game. Like Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron, they have transcended their sport itself. Ron Santo and Jim Rice never transcended anything, and they sure don't belong in the same sentence with Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron.

    And that's the true and only standard: do all the names in the HOF go together? Can they be readily compared with one another as the greatest ever to play during their era? Not just good, not just okay, not just dominant for a couple yrs, but dominant to the point that they were the ones talked about, and everyone knew that they were the greatest ever to play the game (during their era). They had a direct impact on the sport itself.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92T_3ITjJgs

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @Ganderson

    Yoji, lots of politics I think in HOF membership. Who can explain to me why Marv Levy is in the NFL HOF ? Jim Kelly is a puzzlement too. Nice comment.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Buffalo Joe

    Regarding NFL most dominant QB's ever to play the game, Jim Kelly does not belong in the same
    sentence with:

    John Unitas (had 32 TD passes in a 12 game season, 1959. Over a sixteen game season, this translates to 48 TDs same as Marino in 84)
    Terry Bradshaw (first to win 4 SB championships)
    Joe Montana
    John Elway
    Dan Marino
    Brett Favre
    Peyton Manning (up for first yr eligibility this yr.)


    When viewed in this light, Jim Kelly really doesn't belong. But then you could also make a case that Steve Young doesn't belong in the HOF either. He was good, but not great.

    If you can induct Ron Santo and Jim Rice, then you can induct Dave Kingman and Al Oliver. Both have stats that are fairly comparable.

    Also, let's make something clear: Both Santo and Rice are emblematic of the overall problem with the voting process of any HOF. It has become political and popularity. This in turn dilutes the overall quality of what a true HOFer is. Ron Santo is not on the same level as Babe Ruth, pure and simple.

    "But that's not fair!" Goes the response. "Babe Ruth is among the greatest ever to play the game!"

    And my point is made. And Ron Santo is clearly not. Neither is Jim Rice. Jim Rice isn't even in the same sentence as his contemporary Reggie Jackson, much less Babe Ruth.

    And yet, Stan Musial, Ted Williams, Lou Gehrig, Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker, Rogers Hornsby, all belong in the same sentence with Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, and Babe Ruth. There is a true continuum among the names listed. They all can be equally compared to one another in the sense that they were among the greatest of the greatest of the greatest (whatever decimal percentage within the top 1%).

    Just being in the top 1% ever to play in MLB isn't good enough. That simply means that one was good enough to start as a regular, maybe made a few all star games, possibly won an MVP. That's called very good, and NOT among the greatest ever, once in a generation to step foot on the field of play.

    Nearly 100 yrs after he stopped playing, and people who casually follow MLB have heard of Babe Ruth. Ask them who Ron Santo and the likely response is "What the hell's that? A soft drink?"

    Some really don't see it. It cheapens the entire quality of what a HOF was intended to be: The greatest of the greatest of the greatest. If the top 1% to play the game is the elite exclusive club, within the club itself, is a tiny room called the VIP room. THAT room, the VIP, is reserved only for Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Hank Aaron, Ted Williams, Stan Musial, etc.

    And now they've been letting in all the wrong players into the VIP.

    Politics and Popularity.

    If Ron Santo is in the HOF, then so belongs Dave Kingman (who has 60 more career HRs than Rice, by the way).

    OR...you do the correct thing by honoring the true HOFers and bar 99.999999999999999% and allow only the Babe Ruths, and Hank Aarons into the VIP elite exclusive place.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @R.G. Camara

    , @Truth
    @Buffalo Joe

    I was on a boxing board once where somebody posed the question; "why is Pipino Cuevas in the IBHOF". And someone else came up with an incredibly great answer, he said; "because the games are played for the benefit of the fans, and it is called "The Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Good."

    Pipino Cuevas had a 3 year run that unparalleled in his era, he packed arenas in Southern California, bought a generation of rabid Mexican-American fans to the game, had 11 KO's in a row in 11 title defenses (if I remember right), broke bones and eye sockets and created excitement to a level few have for his short prime. Even his two most memorable losses, to two of the greatest fighters of all time will have people talking forever.

    Arturo Gatti is another one; not a great fighter by any means, but beloved by fans of the sport, and a combatant in some of the most exciting boxing matches of all time.

    Levy and Kelly were loved, and have a legacy, as America's most lovable "winning-losers" of their era. They are famous.

    Earl Monroe, if I remember correctly made ONE all-NBA team, and averaged 18 - points, but he was emblematic of a man who sacrificed his fame and personal stats to make a winning, multiracial, New York team.

    Anybody who watched Dave Parker in his time would tell you that he was better than Jim Rice, and he won two WS, but the most "famous guy on each team was Stargell, and Rickey Henderson. Rice was more "famous" as part of the longest running outfield in history (I believe) playing for ONE classic team for many years, and having the highest peak of anyone on that team.

    Do we really need both Rollie Fingers and Bruce Sutter in the Hall of fame? Well, Rollie had the moustache and the quirks, and Bruce was a Cub.

    Replies: @Ron Mexico

  83. @AceDeuce
    @R.G. Camara

    Aaron needed 4000 more at bats than Ruth to hit 41 more home runs. His career batting average was 37 points lower than Ruth's. Ruth was a HOF-caliber pitcher in addition to his other exploits. Aaron was in two World Series, winning one. Ruth was in 10, winning 7, and his personal postseason stats were among the best ever.

    Replies: @R.G. Camara

    Although I agree Ruth > Aaron, some points to consider:

    1. WS appearances means nothing in baseball as to an individual’s abilities. A person could play on lousy teams for 20 years and still be HOF worthy.

    2. During Ruth’s time, balls that bounced in one bounce over the fence counted as homeruns. Today, by Aaron’s time, that’s a ground-rule double.

    3. Ruth had a short right-field porch in the Bronx and Lou Gehrig/other great Yankee sluggers hitting behind him, giving him a lot better chance at hitting home runs. Aaron had Eddie Matthews and a big stadium in Milwaukee during his prime years.

    4. Ruth was the innovator of the home run hitter, and it took several years for the dead ball pitchers to be able to adjust to a strategy of avoiding homeruns.

    5. Ruth’s home runs were magnified by the rabbit ball introduced specifically to increase home runs. By Aaron’s time, the rabbit ball was gone.

    • Replies: @I, Libertine
    @R.G. Camara

    Ground rule double?

    Sorry. This is a pet peeve.

    In every professional baseball park in the world, a ball that lands fair and then bounces out of bounds over a wall or fence is a double. The ground rules of any particular field have nothing to do with it. One might as well call a fair ball hit over the fence or wall a ground rule home run. By the same token, one could call a line drive up the alley on which the batter reaches second an inside-the-park double.

    I'll show myself out.

    , @Nicholas Stix
    @R.G. Camara

    Yeah, but the Babe swung a 54-ounce bat. Who else could do that, while hitting .342 lifetime? And he led all of big league baseball in home runs for the last two seasons of the Dead Ball Era, 1918 and 1919.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @R.G. Camara

    , @AceDeuce
    @R.G. Camara

    You make some points, but I'm not on board.

    I don't know what you're talkiing about with this "rabbit ball" that supposedly came and went. There was the deadball era and then there wasn't.

    I know about the various rule changes-- I'd have to refresh my memory on the specifics. I know there were other changes that hurt Ruth's HR total--something about fair balls going foul after going over the fence-that experts says cost Ruth several HRs.

    Pitchers "adjust" to HR hitters largely the same way they adjust to hitters.

    As far as WS appearances/wins--well, that's the name of the game, isn't it? And at the heart of my mention of it wasn't just appearing/winning the WS, it was one's individual performance in the WS--Aaron, in the two series that he was in, did very well, with a .364 average.

    Ruth, in ten WS, batted .326--if you take away his 3 Boston WS where he pitched, and just focus on his 7 Yankees WS-he batted .351, even with his poor showing while injured/sick in 1922. Take that appearance away, and in the 6 Yankees WS where Ruth was healthy, he averaged .389. Cherry picking his two best WS in 1927 and 1928, he hit .400 and .625 for a two year average of .512 in 31 at bats--two more than Aaron's total WS at bats--and the Yankees won both series, unlike Aaron's efforts.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @R.G. Camara

  84. I am not someone who reads (memorizes!) the MLB encyclopedia.

    Sorry, BB romantics, but stop these comparisons to Babe Ruth.

    Babe played in a very low-money era; he himself was celebrated as then-making more than POTUS.

    During that era, MLB pitchers had plenty of financial incentives to pitch to Babe over the middle of the plate, the catchers to whisper in his ear, etc.

    Dad was pals with a bookie who sat in the right field bleachers in the House that Ruth Built.

  85. @Trinity
    Speaking of underappreciated baseball players, and this guy played with the Chicago Cubs, the third largest market in the country at the time, Billy Williams. A helluva player, and Ron Santo took forever to get into the HOF. Playing in New York definitely helps a player, Earl The Pearl Monroe didn't become real famous nationwide until he left the Baltimore Bullets to play for the Knicks. Earl will always be a Baltimore Bullet in my book. Joe Namath vs. Ken Stabler? Look at the numbers, and like Santo, Stabler had to die to get in the NFL HOF. Stabler spent the bulk of his career playing in a small market in Oakland and in the South in Houston and New Orleans, ( New Orleans yet another small market) in his final years. Namath's numbers don't match up with Stabler's numbers, Namath barely completed half of his passes thrown. NYC, LA, and even relatively small Boston, (was struck by how small Boston seemed when I visited there) athletes receive more ink than other athletes. Imagine if Johnny Bench had played with the Yankees? When the Yankees played the Reds in the 1976 World Series there were retarded East Coast (mostly New York sportswriters comparing Thurman Munson to Johnny Bench.) Bench compared to Munson? Like comparing a juicy steak to hamburger.

    Replies: @Ganderson

    Munson was a good player. Your central point stands- Bench is in the conversation for best ever.

  86. @Buffalo Joe
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Yoji, lots of politics I think in HOF membership. Who can explain to me why Marv Levy is in the NFL HOF ? Jim Kelly is a puzzlement too. Nice comment.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Truth

    Regarding NFL most dominant QB’s ever to play the game, Jim Kelly does not belong in the same
    sentence with:

    John Unitas (had 32 TD passes in a 12 game season, 1959. Over a sixteen game season, this translates to 48 TDs same as Marino in 84)
    Terry Bradshaw (first to win 4 SB championships)
    Joe Montana
    John Elway
    Dan Marino
    Brett Favre
    Peyton Manning (up for first yr eligibility this yr.)

    When viewed in this light, Jim Kelly really doesn’t belong. But then you could also make a case that Steve Young doesn’t belong in the HOF either. He was good, but not great.

    If you can induct Ron Santo and Jim Rice, then you can induct Dave Kingman and Al Oliver. Both have stats that are fairly comparable.

    Also, let’s make something clear: Both Santo and Rice are emblematic of the overall problem with the voting process of any HOF. It has become political and popularity. This in turn dilutes the overall quality of what a true HOFer is. Ron Santo is not on the same level as Babe Ruth, pure and simple.

    “But that’s not fair!” Goes the response. “Babe Ruth is among the greatest ever to play the game!”

    And my point is made. And Ron Santo is clearly not. Neither is Jim Rice. Jim Rice isn’t even in the same sentence as his contemporary Reggie Jackson, much less Babe Ruth.

    And yet, Stan Musial, Ted Williams, Lou Gehrig, Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker, Rogers Hornsby, all belong in the same sentence with Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, and Babe Ruth. There is a true continuum among the names listed. They all can be equally compared to one another in the sense that they were among the greatest of the greatest of the greatest (whatever decimal percentage within the top 1%).

    Just being in the top 1% ever to play in MLB isn’t good enough. That simply means that one was good enough to start as a regular, maybe made a few all star games, possibly won an MVP. That’s called very good, and NOT among the greatest ever, once in a generation to step foot on the field of play.

    Nearly 100 yrs after he stopped playing, and people who casually follow MLB have heard of Babe Ruth. Ask them who Ron Santo and the likely response is “What the hell’s that? A soft drink?”

    Some really don’t see it. It cheapens the entire quality of what a HOF was intended to be: The greatest of the greatest of the greatest. If the top 1% to play the game is the elite exclusive club, within the club itself, is a tiny room called the VIP room. THAT room, the VIP, is reserved only for Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Hank Aaron, Ted Williams, Stan Musial, etc.

    And now they’ve been letting in all the wrong players into the VIP.

    Politics and Popularity.

    If Ron Santo is in the HOF, then so belongs Dave Kingman (who has 60 more career HRs than Rice, by the way).

    OR…you do the correct thing by honoring the true HOFers and bar 99.999999999999999% and allow only the Babe Ruths, and Hank Aarons into the VIP elite exclusive place.

    • Agree: Mike Tre
    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    If you're old enough to have watched the Houston Gamblers (and that league was made for TV so they were on a lot) you can't argue about Kelly's dominance in his prime. Wonder how much Kelly's rep took a hit from how underrated Frank Reich was (see not coincidental recent Colts performance)?

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe

    , @R.G. Camara
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    The baseball HOF is meaningless now with all the marginal guys having coming in thanks to their buddies on the veterans commission voting them in.

    And it became absolutely worthless when Bud Selig got in. Imagine putting in a slimy used car salesman (his family business) who drove his one and only franchise into the ground (the Brewers), then became commissioner and proceeded to cause:

    --the 94 world series cancellation
    --the rampant use of steroids in the sport, that he did nothing to stop or investigate, and outright encouraged
    -disastrous expansion efforts (the Marlins and Devil Rays perpetually have no fans)
    --the "tied" all-star game
    --interleague play destroying the historical and beloved separation of the leagues
    --the creation of playoff system so batty and everyone-gets-in and long it makes the NBA and NHL's playoff system seem logical and exclusive by comparison.

    After Selig was put into the HOF, I realized the HOF was merely confirming what years of marginal players getting in had caused: Cooperstown is now a worthless joke.

    P.S. Selig was saved by all the homeruns from the steroid era (which drew eyeballs) and the Yankees/BoSox/WhiteSox/Cubs teams being center stage in the WS during his tenure, drawing tons. If it had been the Rockies/Twins/Mariners hogging that WS spotlight every year, Selig would've been out on his butt long before he left in 2015.

    Replies: @JMcG

  87. According to the Braves, “Aaron died peacefully in his sleep.”

    Also, from the same article:

    The World Health Organization this week released findings after a series of deaths in elderly people with severe illness in nursing homes in Norway caused concerns about vaccination, but the review didn’t find evidence that the Pfizer vaccine caused the deaths.

    [MORE]

    Obviously, that’s not going to assuage anyone who wants to believe the vaccine will turn us into “dog-boy and pig-girl”, but for what it’s worth, it may well turn out to be that getting a bunch of small jabs (or something like that) would be a more effective and way to deliver this vaccine to an elderly person. Vaccine trials are, by necessity, procrustean beds and it’s impossible to tailor them for everyone right out the gate.

    In any case, if a vaccine was what caused him to die peacefully in his sleep two weeks later, maybe he’s not a great candidate to weather actual full-blown COVID either, and I don’t recall any of the anti-vaxxers shedding tears for Herman Cain, or wondering whether Trump’s tail-end slide into extra-extra-bizarre behavior (i.e. even by his already anomalous standards) might have had anything to do with the lingering effects of COVID-on-the-brain, or whatever it is that they used to cure him. And I doubt Cain died peacefully in his sleep, at least not without a stiff dose of morphine.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @HA

    Take a break man. You're better than this. Why are you even wasting time talking to this imaginary person you've constructed? You're missing all kinds of priors to make sense of anyone's behavior here, Trump on down.

    Replies: @HA

    , @LondonBob
    @HA

    Moderna is even worse than Pfizer for adverse reactions.

  88. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Trinity

    I have thought long and hard about this for a long, long time.

    As good as they were, both Jim Rice and Ron Santo, and others of their ilk, have no right to be in the HOF, which is turning into the hall of very good. Neither had 500 HRs, nor had 3,000 H's. A retired players status don't suddenly improve 20, 30 yrs after he stopped playing. Politics and popularity is what it is, pure and simple.

    For example, a true HOF should have a continuum of players. You don't have to think about the names, you don't have a pause a la "Yeah, but this guy over here was just as good, why isn't he in?" If Ron Santo is in the HOF, so should Dave Parker, Al Oliver, and Dave Kingman. A case can be made for these types of players, it's just that because Santo and Rice played in markets with a sizable MLB fan base and have political connections with the national MLB media at large, they happened to get in while others did not. Ron Santo was never on people's lips as the greatest ever to play MLB during the era of which he played. The fact that some retired players can lobby, and have allies in the media lobby for them to get in after decades post retirement says all one needs to know that they are NOT HOF material. Else, they'd not only be first ballot HOF, it would be so obvious. No one has to think or pause about whether or not the name Stan Musial belongs in the HOF. Ron Santo, it's like "WHO?" And that's an obvious clue that the HOF has turned into the Hall of okay, sorta, kinda, you know, sure why not. And not a secular Valhallah of greatness.

    The names Babe Ruth, Ted Williams, Lou Gerhig, Hank Aaron, Willie Mays all go together. Each name can be compared with one another in the sense that they are at the same level of greatness. Every single name can be easily compared with one another in the sense that they are all the greatest of the great. Within the top 1%, there is a tenth of a tenth of a tenth of 1% (within the top 1% as a whole). Jim Rice and Ron Santo may indeed be in the top one percent of MLBers to have played the game, but they are not in the same percentile as Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron, and everyone knows it. Therefore they don't belong in the HOF.

    Every player name inducted must be compared to one another in the sense that...Are they truly at the same level of greatness? If the answer is no, then they don't belong in the HOF, pure and simple.

    In the NFL this is easily grasped.

    On Defense, the names easily compared are:

    Chuck Bednarik, Dick Butkus, Alan Page, Joe Greene, Jack Lambert, Ronnie Lott, Lawrence Taylor, Rod Woodson, Ray Lewis.

    All these names, no matter the era of which they played, can easily be compared with one another in the sense that they are that guy, the most dominant of the most dominant to ever played the game. Like Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron, they have transcended their sport itself. Ron Santo and Jim Rice never transcended anything, and they sure don't belong in the same sentence with Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron.

    And that's the true and only standard: do all the names in the HOF go together? Can they be readily compared with one another as the greatest ever to play during their era? Not just good, not just okay, not just dominant for a couple yrs, but dominant to the point that they were the ones talked about, and everyone knew that they were the greatest ever to play the game (during their era). They had a direct impact on the sport itself.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92T_3ITjJgs

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe, @Ganderson

    See my comment above, I agree with you about Rice, ( who, as I point out above was for much of his career the third best OFer on his own team.) and I’m too lazy to go back and compile Santo’s case, but at least part of the issue for Santo is his position, and the number of third basemen in the Hall. And, I don’t think the standard is ,” is he as good as Willie Mays” . Then you have no one, or maybe one player every five years go in. If that’s what baseball wants, great, I don’t really care. To use an example I’ve used often, no one would suggest that (well, perhaps you would) Harmon Killebrew was not Cooperstown material. Was he as good as Mantle, Mays, Aaron, etc.? Of course not- he’s still a Hall of Famer.

    Much of the HOF inflation was done by the old veterans committees that put a lot of their pals from the 30s and 40s in- guys like Heinie Manush, Freddie Lindstrom, and Leo Durocher; although in Leo’s case he certainly was famous!

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Ganderson

    And that is total bullshit. Every name within the VIP room can be equally compared as the greatest of the greatest ever to play the game during their eras.


    "at least part of the issue for Santo is his position, and the number of third basemen in the Hall."

    So instead of inducting the true HOFers, the greatest ever to play the game, then the measure is 'well, we don't have enough HOFers at certain positions so we have to meet a quota." Is meeting a quota because of a "lack" of great players at certain positions what the concept of the HOF is about?

    Come on. It doesn't matter how many 2B, 3B, SS, are in the HOF, so long as the right ones are in.

    George Brett, Brooks Robinson, Mike Schmidt were 3B, and were inducted on first ballot. If we never induct another 3B, so what, who cares? The point is that the right ones are in.



    "And, I don’t think the standard is ,” is he as good as Willie Mays” . "

    Absolutely it definitely is. That's the very definition of greatness, do all the names go together? Can they be compared to each other in the sense that they all were dominant during the time they played? Are they so great that the difference between them and the second player is night and day? The question is: Do all the names go together? Willie Mays, Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, Ted Williams, Lou Gehrig, Hank Aaron, for example. Do all these names go together? Absolutely. You don't even have to think, let alone pause. There's no question about it. And it also didn't take them decades to get in. There was no question about it. They're not in the HOF because a quota at a position had to be met, like in Ron Santo's case. More I think about it, Ron Santo really doesn't belong in the HOF. Not to single him alone, he is merely representative of what's wrong with the concept of the HOF.

    "Then you have no one, or maybe one player every five years go in."

    No, then you have the right people inducted. This isn't supposed to be a popularity contest, a political (in the sense that a player played in a bigger market and thus has MLB media connections to help his cause of getting in).

    It also isn't supposed to be a quota system a la "Well, we have to inducted more position players because there has to be balance, and we want to be fair." So being fair now decides who gets in.

    "To use an example I’ve used often, no one would suggest that (well, perhaps you would) Harmon Killebrew was not Cooperstown material. Was he as good as Mantle, Mays, Aaron, etc.? Of course not- he’s still a Hall of Famer."


    Actually I disagree. Killebrew was more than dominant. He has 573 HR's back when 500 HRs was a very big deal. And I can definitely put Harmon Killebrew in the same sentence as Mantle, Mays, etc. Harmon Killebrew has more career HR's and RBI's than Mickey Mantle. In other words, each HOFer can be compared as belonging to the exclusive greatest of the great.

    I can definitely say that Killebrew is an obvious HOFer, but I can't say that about Ron Santo, much less Jim Rice. If Santo was all that, he would've been inducted his first yr of eligibility as it would've been obvious. Notice that Santo's teammate Ernie Banks didn't wait decades to get inducted. Because it was obvious that Ernie belongs in the HOF. Your stats don't suddenly improve the longer you've been retired.

    I also agree with the point about the Veterans Committee inducting their pals, and that's an abuse of the system.

    See, the first few yrs of the HOF, they actually inducted the right people:

    Ruth, Cobb, Wagner, Speaker, Johnson, Lajoie, Alexander, Young, etc. They got it right. What they probably should've been aware of, is that the founding inductees of the HOF were indeed the greatest of the greatest. But because its an annual thing, the voting process, etc. MLB decided it had to pad the hall and induct and honor more than just the obvious choices. But that's precisely what a HOF is for: To honor the greatest of the greatest.

    It's like, they forgot that for a HOF to be truly exclusive, then there will be years where no one is inducted, because there are few players that belong in the exclusive VIP room. Because the HOF is also a money making thing as well as promoting the gospel of MLB in general, the HOF didn't really want to only induct the truly deserving players. So they padded it out and it's become what it currently is: Politics and Popularity, as well as meeting quotas for various reasons. So a HOFer is now whatever the current mood is.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Ganderson, @Ganderson

  89. @Anon
    @Trinity


    Still it suffers from being a Southern city because of a history of Northeastern/Boston-Washington corridor and West Coast bias. Hell even Philadelphia, Baltimore and D.C. suffer from New York bias and to a lesser degree from stuffy Boston fans and newspapers. Atlanta is on the same level as Washington, Philly, Boston, Houston, Dallas, and Miami now, but you would never know it listening to the media, hell it could be a level above Boston and Philly. It has hosted the Olympics, has one of the world’s largest and busiest airports, a skyline that is every bit as impressive if not more so than Dallas, Miami,Philly, and definitely more impressive than Boston and Atlanta has 16 companies based here in Fortune 500. Not exactly the overgrown cow town it was when Aaron played here.
     
    LOL. Wut??

    Boston/Cambridge is where the intelligentsia come from and/or go to school and/or spend their career in teaching or developing revolutionary breakthroughs in STEM. This won’t ever change. You can be sure you’re not a MOTU (master of the universe) if you haven’t spent at least part of your life in the Boston area.

    There are no doubt more Nobel Laureates in the Boston area than any other city/region in the world. Over 97 of Nobel Laureates are affiliated with MIT (62 of them in science). There are 161 Nobel Laureates affiliated with Harvard (113 in science). Other Boston area schools like Tufts and Boston University each have 3 Nobel Laureates in science affiliated with them.

    Replies: @Trinity, @bomag

    Boston is the J-Lo of American major cities. It thinks it is prettier and more talented than it actually is. hahaha. While my birthplace of Baltimore suffers from an inferiority complex, one writer described being in love with Baltimore is like being in love with a girl with a broken nose, Boston natives think too highly of their city. I wasn’t impressed at all. IF I had to choose between NYC & Boston circa 1970s to 1980s, I choose NYC in a landslide, I choose neither in 2020. The only people that probably think highly of Boston are people from Boston. lololol.

  90. My dad (RIP) once saw Hank Aaron (RIP) play in County Stadium in Milwaukee. My aunt says Aaron even hit a home run that day.

  91. @Morton's toes
    @BB753

    This is like the greatest throwaway statistic on wikipedia. From Tommie Aaron's (d. 1984) page.


    Aaron hit a total of 13 major league home runs, with eight of them coming in his first year of 1962. Along with his brother's then Major League record 755, they hold the Major League record for the most career home runs by two brothers (768).
     

    Replies: @Anon, @Prester John, @I, Libertine

    Several sets of brothers – the Niekros, the Madduxes and the Perrys, ruined a similarly tricky baseball trivia question. Which set of brothers who both pitched in the big leagues combined for the most lifetime wins? The answer once was the Mathewsons: Christy (373) and Henry (zero).

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    @I, Libertine

    I don't think it counts when one of the brothers literally contributes nothing.

    Anyway, the Aarons hold the record for a pair of brothers hitting the most HR, but I didn't realize who was in second with 508Eddie (504) and Rich (4) Murray

  92. OT: This is a classic tweet. Betas wondering what the Alpha is doing:

    The big problem with the left is that their standard bearers right now are bitchy Nancy and dopey Biden. They cannot be made to look good. Nancy’s on a vindictive witch hunt, and Biden is enacting stupidity.

    • Agree: Muggles
    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @Anon

    Standard? They have no standards.

    It wasn't the left that did this, nor is it the left who's doing it.

  93. @Ganderson
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    See my comment above, I agree with you about Rice, ( who, as I point out above was for much of his career the third best OFer on his own team.) and I’m too lazy to go back and compile Santo’s case, but at least part of the issue for Santo is his position, and the number of third basemen in the Hall. And, I don’t think the standard is ,” is he as good as Willie Mays” . Then you have no one, or maybe one player every five years go in. If that’s what baseball wants, great, I don’t really care. To use an example I’ve used often, no one would suggest that (well, perhaps you would) Harmon Killebrew was not Cooperstown material. Was he as good as Mantle, Mays, Aaron, etc.? Of course not- he’s still a Hall of Famer.

    Much of the HOF inflation was done by the old veterans committees that put a lot of their pals from the 30s and 40s in- guys like Heinie Manush, Freddie Lindstrom, and Leo Durocher; although in Leo’s case he certainly was famous!

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    And that is total bullshit. Every name within the VIP room can be equally compared as the greatest of the greatest ever to play the game during their eras.

    “at least part of the issue for Santo is his position, and the number of third basemen in the Hall.”

    So instead of inducting the true HOFers, the greatest ever to play the game, then the measure is ‘well, we don’t have enough HOFers at certain positions so we have to meet a quota.” Is meeting a quota because of a “lack” of great players at certain positions what the concept of the HOF is about?

    Come on. It doesn’t matter how many 2B, 3B, SS, are in the HOF, so long as the right ones are in.

    George Brett, Brooks Robinson, Mike Schmidt were 3B, and were inducted on first ballot. If we never induct another 3B, so what, who cares? The point is that the right ones are in.

    “And, I don’t think the standard is ,” is he as good as Willie Mays” . ”

    Absolutely it definitely is. That’s the very definition of greatness, do all the names go together? Can they be compared to each other in the sense that they all were dominant during the time they played? Are they so great that the difference between them and the second player is night and day? The question is: Do all the names go together? Willie Mays, Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, Ted Williams, Lou Gehrig, Hank Aaron, for example. Do all these names go together? Absolutely. You don’t even have to think, let alone pause. There’s no question about it. And it also didn’t take them decades to get in. There was no question about it. They’re not in the HOF because a quota at a position had to be met, like in Ron Santo’s case. More I think about it, Ron Santo really doesn’t belong in the HOF. Not to single him alone, he is merely representative of what’s wrong with the concept of the HOF.

    “Then you have no one, or maybe one player every five years go in.”

    No, then you have the right people inducted. This isn’t supposed to be a popularity contest, a political (in the sense that a player played in a bigger market and thus has MLB media connections to help his cause of getting in).

    It also isn’t supposed to be a quota system a la “Well, we have to inducted more position players because there has to be balance, and we want to be fair.” So being fair now decides who gets in.

    “To use an example I’ve used often, no one would suggest that (well, perhaps you would) Harmon Killebrew was not Cooperstown material. Was he as good as Mantle, Mays, Aaron, etc.? Of course not- he’s still a Hall of Famer.”

    Actually I disagree. Killebrew was more than dominant. He has 573 HR’s back when 500 HRs was a very big deal. And I can definitely put Harmon Killebrew in the same sentence as Mantle, Mays, etc. Harmon Killebrew has more career HR’s and RBI’s than Mickey Mantle. In other words, each HOFer can be compared as belonging to the exclusive greatest of the great.

    I can definitely say that Killebrew is an obvious HOFer, but I can’t say that about Ron Santo, much less Jim Rice. If Santo was all that, he would’ve been inducted his first yr of eligibility as it would’ve been obvious. Notice that Santo’s teammate Ernie Banks didn’t wait decades to get inducted. Because it was obvious that Ernie belongs in the HOF. Your stats don’t suddenly improve the longer you’ve been retired.

    I also agree with the point about the Veterans Committee inducting their pals, and that’s an abuse of the system.

    See, the first few yrs of the HOF, they actually inducted the right people:

    Ruth, Cobb, Wagner, Speaker, Johnson, Lajoie, Alexander, Young, etc. They got it right. What they probably should’ve been aware of, is that the founding inductees of the HOF were indeed the greatest of the greatest. But because its an annual thing, the voting process, etc. MLB decided it had to pad the hall and induct and honor more than just the obvious choices. But that’s precisely what a HOF is for: To honor the greatest of the greatest.

    It’s like, they forgot that for a HOF to be truly exclusive, then there will be years where no one is inducted, because there are few players that belong in the exclusive VIP room. Because the HOF is also a money making thing as well as promoting the gospel of MLB in general, the HOF didn’t really want to only induct the truly deserving players. So they padded it out and it’s become what it currently is: Politics and Popularity, as well as meeting quotas for various reasons. So a HOFer is now whatever the current mood is.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Generations ago, the Hall of Fame let in a whole bunch of 1920s New York Giants whom nobody remembers today.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @anonymous as usual

    , @Ganderson
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    I can foresee endless evenings of back and forth on this topic- I think we’ve had a version of this conversation before. I’d wager we’d enjoy going to a game together.

    I went back, just for giggles and looked at Al Oliver’s numbers- as you say he doesn’t make the cut, but man, he was a good player- just below the line. Fun fact: He played on a Legion team in Portsmouth, OH with Gene Tenace and Larry Hisle. Must’ve been a heck of a team.

    , @Ganderson
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    My goof- Leo’s in as a manager. I was thinking of Phil Rizutto. Creeping Bidenisn. Yojimbo- you have an opinion about Schilling?

  94. MLB is probably without a doubt the most analyzed and statistically evaluated sport of all time, especially in the US. Of course it has been around a long time and stats were almost from the beginning kept in great detail.

    Aaron was undoubtedly at or near the top, as a hitter.

    But like many here note, over time conditions change: ball energy, bat specs, ballpark wall distances, rules (like the bouncing home runs) and the number of games/teams played in a season. Travel, much easier now but more of it. More players. PED rules. Pot not very helpful, or LSD, but Ruth showed booze didn’t hurt, maybe helped him. Still not done much now.

    Pitching is now much better, faster, trickier. Ruth was remarkable, stellar, But he wouldn’t be pitching now in any league (probably). Hence century old comparisons are only rough estimates. Players are now from overseas, mainly Latin America. They start playing very young there, Coaching is better. Earlier, better physical conditioning. All are factors.

    Even Japan has produced some good players.

    One thing Bonds, Aaron, Mays and others disprove: yes, blacks can play baseball well. Many now go into other sports, but they are still able to become baseball elites. More Latinos now for sure. It used to be exclusively domestic white. Many good white players still, but racially it is far more “diverse.” Depending on how you count Hispanics, which ones. Doesn’t really matter if they are all playing at the same time in the same parks, the same equipment, rules.

    In all sports you can’t really say it is the “same game” twenty years ago, or more. This is what fuels fan disagreements. Makes it fun, as we can all become Experts.

    • Replies: @Up2Drew
    @Muggles

    Players from Latin America are proliferate because buscones are giving them horse chemical PEDs from the time they're ten years old.

  95. @Anon
    OT: This is a classic tweet. Betas wondering what the Alpha is doing:

    https://twitter.com/TRHLofficial/status/1352377054529003523

    The big problem with the left is that their standard bearers right now are bitchy Nancy and dopey Biden. They cannot be made to look good. Nancy's on a vindictive witch hunt, and Biden is enacting stupidity.

    Replies: @Desiderius

    Standard? They have no standards.

    It wasn’t the left that did this, nor is it the left who’s doing it.

  96. @HA
    According to the Braves, "Aaron died peacefully in his sleep."

    Also, from the same article:


    The World Health Organization this week released findings after a series of deaths in elderly people with severe illness in nursing homes in Norway caused concerns about vaccination, but the review didn’t find evidence that the Pfizer vaccine caused the deaths.
     

    Obviously, that's not going to assuage anyone who wants to believe the vaccine will turn us into "dog-boy and pig-girl", but for what it's worth, it may well turn out to be that getting a bunch of small jabs (or something like that) would be a more effective and way to deliver this vaccine to an elderly person. Vaccine trials are, by necessity, procrustean beds and it's impossible to tailor them for everyone right out the gate.

    In any case, if a vaccine was what caused him to die peacefully in his sleep two weeks later, maybe he's not a great candidate to weather actual full-blown COVID either, and I don't recall any of the anti-vaxxers shedding tears for Herman Cain, or wondering whether Trump's tail-end slide into extra-extra-bizarre behavior (i.e. even by his already anomalous standards) might have had anything to do with the lingering effects of COVID-on-the-brain, or whatever it is that they used to cure him. And I doubt Cain died peacefully in his sleep, at least not without a stiff dose of morphine.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @LondonBob

    Take a break man. You’re better than this. Why are you even wasting time talking to this imaginary person you’ve constructed? You’re missing all kinds of priors to make sense of anyone’s behavior here, Trump on down.

    • Replies: @HA
    @Desiderius

    "You’re missing all kinds of priors to make sense of anyone’s behavior here, Trump on down."

    That never stopped the anti-vaxxers or other conspiracy theorists -- when something like this happens, the vaccine shot (or Jewish last name or whatever else they're going on about) is all the dot-connecting that anyone should be expected to provide. My only point, noted, is that their focus is oddly selective and I, for one, want to be able to say I considered both sides of the argument.

    Replies: @Desiderius

  97. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Ganderson

    And that is total bullshit. Every name within the VIP room can be equally compared as the greatest of the greatest ever to play the game during their eras.


    "at least part of the issue for Santo is his position, and the number of third basemen in the Hall."

    So instead of inducting the true HOFers, the greatest ever to play the game, then the measure is 'well, we don't have enough HOFers at certain positions so we have to meet a quota." Is meeting a quota because of a "lack" of great players at certain positions what the concept of the HOF is about?

    Come on. It doesn't matter how many 2B, 3B, SS, are in the HOF, so long as the right ones are in.

    George Brett, Brooks Robinson, Mike Schmidt were 3B, and were inducted on first ballot. If we never induct another 3B, so what, who cares? The point is that the right ones are in.



    "And, I don’t think the standard is ,” is he as good as Willie Mays” . "

    Absolutely it definitely is. That's the very definition of greatness, do all the names go together? Can they be compared to each other in the sense that they all were dominant during the time they played? Are they so great that the difference between them and the second player is night and day? The question is: Do all the names go together? Willie Mays, Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, Ted Williams, Lou Gehrig, Hank Aaron, for example. Do all these names go together? Absolutely. You don't even have to think, let alone pause. There's no question about it. And it also didn't take them decades to get in. There was no question about it. They're not in the HOF because a quota at a position had to be met, like in Ron Santo's case. More I think about it, Ron Santo really doesn't belong in the HOF. Not to single him alone, he is merely representative of what's wrong with the concept of the HOF.

    "Then you have no one, or maybe one player every five years go in."

    No, then you have the right people inducted. This isn't supposed to be a popularity contest, a political (in the sense that a player played in a bigger market and thus has MLB media connections to help his cause of getting in).

    It also isn't supposed to be a quota system a la "Well, we have to inducted more position players because there has to be balance, and we want to be fair." So being fair now decides who gets in.

    "To use an example I’ve used often, no one would suggest that (well, perhaps you would) Harmon Killebrew was not Cooperstown material. Was he as good as Mantle, Mays, Aaron, etc.? Of course not- he’s still a Hall of Famer."


    Actually I disagree. Killebrew was more than dominant. He has 573 HR's back when 500 HRs was a very big deal. And I can definitely put Harmon Killebrew in the same sentence as Mantle, Mays, etc. Harmon Killebrew has more career HR's and RBI's than Mickey Mantle. In other words, each HOFer can be compared as belonging to the exclusive greatest of the great.

    I can definitely say that Killebrew is an obvious HOFer, but I can't say that about Ron Santo, much less Jim Rice. If Santo was all that, he would've been inducted his first yr of eligibility as it would've been obvious. Notice that Santo's teammate Ernie Banks didn't wait decades to get inducted. Because it was obvious that Ernie belongs in the HOF. Your stats don't suddenly improve the longer you've been retired.

    I also agree with the point about the Veterans Committee inducting their pals, and that's an abuse of the system.

    See, the first few yrs of the HOF, they actually inducted the right people:

    Ruth, Cobb, Wagner, Speaker, Johnson, Lajoie, Alexander, Young, etc. They got it right. What they probably should've been aware of, is that the founding inductees of the HOF were indeed the greatest of the greatest. But because its an annual thing, the voting process, etc. MLB decided it had to pad the hall and induct and honor more than just the obvious choices. But that's precisely what a HOF is for: To honor the greatest of the greatest.

    It's like, they forgot that for a HOF to be truly exclusive, then there will be years where no one is inducted, because there are few players that belong in the exclusive VIP room. Because the HOF is also a money making thing as well as promoting the gospel of MLB in general, the HOF didn't really want to only induct the truly deserving players. So they padded it out and it's become what it currently is: Politics and Popularity, as well as meeting quotas for various reasons. So a HOFer is now whatever the current mood is.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Ganderson, @Ganderson

    Generations ago, the Hall of Fame let in a whole bunch of 1920s New York Giants whom nobody remembers today.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Steve Sailer

    Clarification: are you referring to Mel Ott, Carl Hubbell, Bill Terry? Terry was the last NL to hit over 400. Mel Ott has 511 career HRs. Hubbell was one of the greatest left handed screwball pitchers ever to play pre-1950. Those three are obvious HOFers. Lindstrom, Travis Jackson, Ross Youngs, etc. obviously not HOFers, but there it is. Popularity and politics at work in the induction process.

    , @anonymous as usual
    @Steve Sailer

    And hundreds of thousands of guys who barely made their high school teams killed hundreds of thousands of Japs and Krauts.

    NOBODY FUCKING CARES IF SOME LITTLE GUY WAS GOOD AT A KID'S GAME.

    AND TELL ME WHAT HANK AARON EVER DID OUTSIDE OF BEING A BASEBALL PLAYER?

    I remember him as an angry black man who voted for all the crooked politicians who put Planned Parenthood clinics in black neighborhoods to keep the black population down.

    Sure I probably only would have stuck him out one out of ten at-bats, but so what, at least I was not a black guy who was too cowardly to call out Planned Parenthood for targeting the young black women in my neighborhood.

    Replies: @anonymous as usual, @anon

  98. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Buffalo Joe

    Regarding NFL most dominant QB's ever to play the game, Jim Kelly does not belong in the same
    sentence with:

    John Unitas (had 32 TD passes in a 12 game season, 1959. Over a sixteen game season, this translates to 48 TDs same as Marino in 84)
    Terry Bradshaw (first to win 4 SB championships)
    Joe Montana
    John Elway
    Dan Marino
    Brett Favre
    Peyton Manning (up for first yr eligibility this yr.)


    When viewed in this light, Jim Kelly really doesn't belong. But then you could also make a case that Steve Young doesn't belong in the HOF either. He was good, but not great.

    If you can induct Ron Santo and Jim Rice, then you can induct Dave Kingman and Al Oliver. Both have stats that are fairly comparable.

    Also, let's make something clear: Both Santo and Rice are emblematic of the overall problem with the voting process of any HOF. It has become political and popularity. This in turn dilutes the overall quality of what a true HOFer is. Ron Santo is not on the same level as Babe Ruth, pure and simple.

    "But that's not fair!" Goes the response. "Babe Ruth is among the greatest ever to play the game!"

    And my point is made. And Ron Santo is clearly not. Neither is Jim Rice. Jim Rice isn't even in the same sentence as his contemporary Reggie Jackson, much less Babe Ruth.

    And yet, Stan Musial, Ted Williams, Lou Gehrig, Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker, Rogers Hornsby, all belong in the same sentence with Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, and Babe Ruth. There is a true continuum among the names listed. They all can be equally compared to one another in the sense that they were among the greatest of the greatest of the greatest (whatever decimal percentage within the top 1%).

    Just being in the top 1% ever to play in MLB isn't good enough. That simply means that one was good enough to start as a regular, maybe made a few all star games, possibly won an MVP. That's called very good, and NOT among the greatest ever, once in a generation to step foot on the field of play.

    Nearly 100 yrs after he stopped playing, and people who casually follow MLB have heard of Babe Ruth. Ask them who Ron Santo and the likely response is "What the hell's that? A soft drink?"

    Some really don't see it. It cheapens the entire quality of what a HOF was intended to be: The greatest of the greatest of the greatest. If the top 1% to play the game is the elite exclusive club, within the club itself, is a tiny room called the VIP room. THAT room, the VIP, is reserved only for Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Hank Aaron, Ted Williams, Stan Musial, etc.

    And now they've been letting in all the wrong players into the VIP.

    Politics and Popularity.

    If Ron Santo is in the HOF, then so belongs Dave Kingman (who has 60 more career HRs than Rice, by the way).

    OR...you do the correct thing by honoring the true HOFers and bar 99.999999999999999% and allow only the Babe Ruths, and Hank Aarons into the VIP elite exclusive place.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @R.G. Camara

    If you’re old enough to have watched the Houston Gamblers (and that league was made for TV so they were on a lot) you can’t argue about Kelly’s dominance in his prime. Wonder how much Kelly’s rep took a hit from how underrated Frank Reich was (see not coincidental recent Colts performance)?

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    @Desiderius

    Desi, I am hoping that the Bills don't have Kelly on the sidelines when Buffalo plays Kansas City tomorrow. Kelly had four straight shots in the Super Bowl, never happened before or since .So wouldn't that be his prime? In four SB games he threw for a total of 2 TDs and 7 ints. His four game QB Rating was 63.0. Kelly and the Bills had some great players but no SB Championship, which begs my original question, Why is Marv Levy in the HOF?

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Danindc

  99. @Desiderius
    @HA

    Take a break man. You're better than this. Why are you even wasting time talking to this imaginary person you've constructed? You're missing all kinds of priors to make sense of anyone's behavior here, Trump on down.

    Replies: @HA

    “You’re missing all kinds of priors to make sense of anyone’s behavior here, Trump on down.”

    That never stopped the anti-vaxxers or other conspiracy theorists — when something like this happens, the vaccine shot (or Jewish last name or whatever else they’re going on about) is all the dot-connecting that anyone should be expected to provide. My only point, noted, is that their focus is oddly selective and I, for one, want to be able to say I considered both sides of the argument.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @HA

    Steve matters more than all of them put together. Try his tack. He needs the help.

    Replies: @HA

  100. @R.G. Camara
    @AceDeuce

    Although I agree Ruth > Aaron, some points to consider:

    1. WS appearances means nothing in baseball as to an individual's abilities. A person could play on lousy teams for 20 years and still be HOF worthy.

    2. During Ruth's time, balls that bounced in one bounce over the fence counted as homeruns. Today, by Aaron's time, that's a ground-rule double.

    3. Ruth had a short right-field porch in the Bronx and Lou Gehrig/other great Yankee sluggers hitting behind him, giving him a lot better chance at hitting home runs. Aaron had Eddie Matthews and a big stadium in Milwaukee during his prime years.

    4. Ruth was the innovator of the home run hitter, and it took several years for the dead ball pitchers to be able to adjust to a strategy of avoiding homeruns.

    5. Ruth's home runs were magnified by the rabbit ball introduced specifically to increase home runs. By Aaron's time, the rabbit ball was gone.

    Replies: @I, Libertine, @Nicholas Stix, @AceDeuce

    Ground rule double?

    Sorry. This is a pet peeve.

    In every professional baseball park in the world, a ball that lands fair and then bounces out of bounds over a wall or fence is a double. The ground rules of any particular field have nothing to do with it. One might as well call a fair ball hit over the fence or wall a ground rule home run. By the same token, one could call a line drive up the alley on which the batter reaches second an inside-the-park double.

    I’ll show myself out.

    • Thanks: I, Libertine
    • LOL: R.G. Camara
  101. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Ganderson

    And that is total bullshit. Every name within the VIP room can be equally compared as the greatest of the greatest ever to play the game during their eras.


    "at least part of the issue for Santo is his position, and the number of third basemen in the Hall."

    So instead of inducting the true HOFers, the greatest ever to play the game, then the measure is 'well, we don't have enough HOFers at certain positions so we have to meet a quota." Is meeting a quota because of a "lack" of great players at certain positions what the concept of the HOF is about?

    Come on. It doesn't matter how many 2B, 3B, SS, are in the HOF, so long as the right ones are in.

    George Brett, Brooks Robinson, Mike Schmidt were 3B, and were inducted on first ballot. If we never induct another 3B, so what, who cares? The point is that the right ones are in.



    "And, I don’t think the standard is ,” is he as good as Willie Mays” . "

    Absolutely it definitely is. That's the very definition of greatness, do all the names go together? Can they be compared to each other in the sense that they all were dominant during the time they played? Are they so great that the difference between them and the second player is night and day? The question is: Do all the names go together? Willie Mays, Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, Ted Williams, Lou Gehrig, Hank Aaron, for example. Do all these names go together? Absolutely. You don't even have to think, let alone pause. There's no question about it. And it also didn't take them decades to get in. There was no question about it. They're not in the HOF because a quota at a position had to be met, like in Ron Santo's case. More I think about it, Ron Santo really doesn't belong in the HOF. Not to single him alone, he is merely representative of what's wrong with the concept of the HOF.

    "Then you have no one, or maybe one player every five years go in."

    No, then you have the right people inducted. This isn't supposed to be a popularity contest, a political (in the sense that a player played in a bigger market and thus has MLB media connections to help his cause of getting in).

    It also isn't supposed to be a quota system a la "Well, we have to inducted more position players because there has to be balance, and we want to be fair." So being fair now decides who gets in.

    "To use an example I’ve used often, no one would suggest that (well, perhaps you would) Harmon Killebrew was not Cooperstown material. Was he as good as Mantle, Mays, Aaron, etc.? Of course not- he’s still a Hall of Famer."


    Actually I disagree. Killebrew was more than dominant. He has 573 HR's back when 500 HRs was a very big deal. And I can definitely put Harmon Killebrew in the same sentence as Mantle, Mays, etc. Harmon Killebrew has more career HR's and RBI's than Mickey Mantle. In other words, each HOFer can be compared as belonging to the exclusive greatest of the great.

    I can definitely say that Killebrew is an obvious HOFer, but I can't say that about Ron Santo, much less Jim Rice. If Santo was all that, he would've been inducted his first yr of eligibility as it would've been obvious. Notice that Santo's teammate Ernie Banks didn't wait decades to get inducted. Because it was obvious that Ernie belongs in the HOF. Your stats don't suddenly improve the longer you've been retired.

    I also agree with the point about the Veterans Committee inducting their pals, and that's an abuse of the system.

    See, the first few yrs of the HOF, they actually inducted the right people:

    Ruth, Cobb, Wagner, Speaker, Johnson, Lajoie, Alexander, Young, etc. They got it right. What they probably should've been aware of, is that the founding inductees of the HOF were indeed the greatest of the greatest. But because its an annual thing, the voting process, etc. MLB decided it had to pad the hall and induct and honor more than just the obvious choices. But that's precisely what a HOF is for: To honor the greatest of the greatest.

    It's like, they forgot that for a HOF to be truly exclusive, then there will be years where no one is inducted, because there are few players that belong in the exclusive VIP room. Because the HOF is also a money making thing as well as promoting the gospel of MLB in general, the HOF didn't really want to only induct the truly deserving players. So they padded it out and it's become what it currently is: Politics and Popularity, as well as meeting quotas for various reasons. So a HOFer is now whatever the current mood is.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Ganderson, @Ganderson

    I can foresee endless evenings of back and forth on this topic- I think we’ve had a version of this conversation before. I’d wager we’d enjoy going to a game together.

    I went back, just for giggles and looked at Al Oliver’s numbers- as you say he doesn’t make the cut, but man, he was a good player- just below the line. Fun fact: He played on a Legion team in Portsmouth, OH with Gene Tenace and Larry Hisle. Must’ve been a heck of a team.

  102. Interesting take on Barry Bonds. I’ve also felt he was basically forced into taking steroids. The same may be true with the other super-human player, Roger Clemens. He got beaten badly by the steroid infused A’s.

    When you have a situation where honest people are only cheating themselves, you can’t really blame anyone for cheating. (Which is why I admire Elizabeth Warren’s creativity).

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Morris Applebaum IV

    My guess is that Bonds and Clemens deserve to be in the Hall of Fame for their pre-PEDs careers. They should issue apologies detailing what they did. Then they should be elected, for their pre-PEDs careers.

    Replies: @anonymous as usual

  103. @Steve Sailer
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Generations ago, the Hall of Fame let in a whole bunch of 1920s New York Giants whom nobody remembers today.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @anonymous as usual

    Clarification: are you referring to Mel Ott, Carl Hubbell, Bill Terry? Terry was the last NL to hit over 400. Mel Ott has 511 career HRs. Hubbell was one of the greatest left handed screwball pitchers ever to play pre-1950. Those three are obvious HOFers. Lindstrom, Travis Jackson, Ross Youngs, etc. obviously not HOFers, but there it is. Popularity and politics at work in the induction process.

  104. @Paul Jolliffe
    @Steve Sailer

    Darrell Evans spent his last few years in Detroit at Tiger Stadium with its short upper-deck porch in right field. I myself in 1987 saw Evans crush a bomb into the seats out there - it was a shot. He was the first 40-year old to hit 30 home runs.
    Back then, 30 was a lot.

    https://youtu.be/dgxtLMghYlY

    Replies: @Ron Mexico

    Surprisingly he only hit 16 during the Roar of 84, but 40 the next year.

  105. @Trinity
    Home runs per at bat kings.

    Mark McGwire 10.61
    Babe Ruth 11.76
    Bonds 12.92
    Jim Thome 13.76 * I believe Thome was natural as well
    Ralph Kiner 14.11

    I mentioned Mays, Mantle, and Ted Williams earlier and I will add Aaron. These guys were further down the list.

    Ted Williams tied Harmon Killebrew at 14.22
    Mickey Mantle 15.12
    Aaron 16.38
    Mays 16.44

    Is there really any doubt who the REAL home run king was? Also Ruth started out as a pitcher, a pretty good one at that, how many dingers did that cost him. Like I said it took Aaron 4,000 more at bats to barely beat Ruth by 41 home runs. At a ratio of a home run every 11.76 at bats, you do the math.

    Replies: @Deckin, @R.G. Camara, @R.G. Camara

    I think you mean ‘bats per home run’

  106. @Trinity
    @Wake up

    Ruth was the REAL KING OF HOME RUNS, however, I give the best all around player of all time to either Barry Bonds or Willie Mays. Steroids aided Bonds but he was a five tool player when he was a skinny kid in Pittsburgh. Bonds would have hit in the high 500's or low 600s had he never touched a PED. He had it all, glove, speed, arm, power, just like Willie Mays. PEDs can only help so much when it comes to a skill sport like baseball. Greg Luzinski who played for the Phillies was built like a brick shithouse and he never put up the HUGE numbers, good numbers but he couldn't even match the great Mike Schmidt. Big polish guy, who I don't even think lifted weights much less take PEDs.

    Replies: @Ron Mexico, @Marty

    The Bull was massive head to toe. I think the PEDs started in So Cal with Brian Downing and his lifting buddy, Lance Parrish.

  107. @Trinity
    @Wake up

    Ruth was the REAL KING OF HOME RUNS, however, I give the best all around player of all time to either Barry Bonds or Willie Mays. Steroids aided Bonds but he was a five tool player when he was a skinny kid in Pittsburgh. Bonds would have hit in the high 500's or low 600s had he never touched a PED. He had it all, glove, speed, arm, power, just like Willie Mays. PEDs can only help so much when it comes to a skill sport like baseball. Greg Luzinski who played for the Phillies was built like a brick shithouse and he never put up the HUGE numbers, good numbers but he couldn't even match the great Mike Schmidt. Big polish guy, who I don't even think lifted weights much less take PEDs.

    Replies: @Ron Mexico, @Marty

    Barry’s arm was well below average. Well known story about Bill Virdon coaching him to camouflage it with a quick release. When Jim Leyland famously blew up at Bonds in spring training, it was because Bonds was ignoring Virdon. But he could jump, like Rickey and Griffey.

    • Replies: @Trinity
    @Marty

    No Barry Bonds had a helluva arm you are mistaken. Bonds was a five tool player. Like him or hate him, and most hate him including me, Bonds and Mays were the best all around players ever IMO.

    , @ScarletNumber
    @Marty

    Bill Virdon was the first Yankee manager since Wild Bill Donovan in 1915-17 to not manage a game in Yankee Stadium.

  108. Anon[761] • Disclaimer says:

    Assorted thoughts:

    1. I think it was Pete Rose who made the point that people talk about Willie Mays but Hank Aaron was the better hitter.

    2 . In the late 1990s, Reggie Jackson made the point that it is not naturally possible for a person to hit 180 home runs in a three year span.

    Sammy Sosa did not quite do that: from 1998 to 2000 he hit 179 home runs. But Reggie Jackson’s point is clear. It might be an interesting study from a sabermetric perspective to locate a couple of the best three year periods of a player’s home run hitting.

  109. Ron Santo played at a time when hitting 30 home runs was a big deal and hitting 40 home runs was a rare feat reserved for people like Aaron, McCovey, Killebrew or Frank Robinson, and even these guys didn’t hit over 40 home runs on the regular. Bill Melton led the American League in home runs in 1971 with 33 home runs. Santo also won 5 gold gloves in a row at one of the most difficult positions in baseball. Matter of fact Santo had stats that are very comparable to Cal Ripken when you take into account that Ripken played 21 seasons to Ron’s 14 years. Ron probably had a tad more power even. Ron Santo does indeed belong in the HOF, not a superstar but his career is worthy of a plaque at Cooperstown. The incomparable Brooks Robinson made it with his glove because his offensive stats are not outstanding in any shape or form, respectable for such a fine 3rd baseman, but not in the same league with Santo with the bat.

    • Replies: @flyingtiger
    @Trinity

    Santo may have been the first major league athlete who had diabetes. He kept a secret when he was playing.

  110. @Michelle
    An awesome and superlative baseball player!

    Replies: @Getaclue, @Ben tillman

    I saw him play once or twice in 1973. Darrell Evans is not that surprising, but how Dave’s Johnson hit 40 homers that year?

  111. @R.G. Camara
    Big City media bias and East Coast media bias. Reminds me of what happened to Robin Yount. Yount played on the obscure Brewers his entire career, and despite winning multiple MVP awards and being an outstanding athlete for decades (went from Gold Glove-caliber shortstop to Gold Glove-caliber centerfielder), could walk into any room on the East Coast and not be recognized. If Yount had played in a big media market, especially on the East Coast, he'd be celebrated as one of the greatest athletes of the 20th Century.

    Anyway, Bonds had to cheat heavily to beat Aaron, much like Biden did with Trump. That's all you need to know about how great Aaron's numbers were. As Reggie Jackson said, if you tried to beat Aaron's homerun record by hitting 35 year for 20 years, you'd still be 55 short. Aaron is still the all-time homerun king.

    Also, funny story about Aaron: he grew up hitting "cross-handed". He would bat right-handed as a kid, but his left hand would be on top of his right hand when he swung, instead of the natural other way around (try it on yourself to see how awkward it is). Someone got in his ear as a teen/early 20s and got him to switch his hands up so his right hand was on top of his left, but still kept him batting right handed.

    In his autobio I read as a kid, Aaron wondered why no one ever just turned him around and made him bat left-handed, which would have gotten rid of his cross-handedness and also given him the left-handed batter's advantage.

    But I think Aaron did ok, doncha think? He's one of those top 6 -7outfielders kids argue about putting on the all-time team they have in their minds (Cobb, Ruth, Williams, Musial, Mays, Aaron + whatever outfielder the kid particularly idolizes). RIP.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Trinity, @Ed Case, @Desiderius, @AceDeuce, @E. Rekshun, @kaganovitch, @Truth

    Big City media bias and East Coast media bias. Reminds me of what happened to Robin Yount. Yount played on the obscure Brewers his entire career, and despite winning multiple MVP awards and being an outstanding athlete for decades (went from Gold Glove-caliber shortstop to Gold Glove-caliber centerfielder), could walk into any room on the East Coast and not be recognized. If Yount had played in a big media market, especially on the East Coast, he’d be celebrated as one of the greatest athletes of the 20th Century.

    While Yount was indeed a great player, he was hardly one of the greatest athletes of the 20th century. As I think I mentioned the last time he came up ,(perhaps Lou Brock thread?) he was hardly a Gold Glove CF. Defensive WAR stats rate him poorly as a CF, with a cumulative 6 losses above replacement as a CF. Statistically he was not quite as good as Cal Ripken. Around even offensively, much worse defensively. Cal Ripken–East Coaster though he was– in turn , would not be nearly as well known absent the consecutive games played record.

    • Replies: @R.G. Camara
    @kaganovitch

    Yount was actually in the DiMaggio category---a great athlete and teammate who's numbers didn't reflect the athleticism and "class" and other intangibles people chalked up to him. Yount in NYC would've gotten a similar reception to DiMaggio, although not as great.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @kaganovitch, @Reg Cæsar

  112. @R.G. Camara
    @AceDeuce

    Although I agree Ruth > Aaron, some points to consider:

    1. WS appearances means nothing in baseball as to an individual's abilities. A person could play on lousy teams for 20 years and still be HOF worthy.

    2. During Ruth's time, balls that bounced in one bounce over the fence counted as homeruns. Today, by Aaron's time, that's a ground-rule double.

    3. Ruth had a short right-field porch in the Bronx and Lou Gehrig/other great Yankee sluggers hitting behind him, giving him a lot better chance at hitting home runs. Aaron had Eddie Matthews and a big stadium in Milwaukee during his prime years.

    4. Ruth was the innovator of the home run hitter, and it took several years for the dead ball pitchers to be able to adjust to a strategy of avoiding homeruns.

    5. Ruth's home runs were magnified by the rabbit ball introduced specifically to increase home runs. By Aaron's time, the rabbit ball was gone.

    Replies: @I, Libertine, @Nicholas Stix, @AceDeuce

    Yeah, but the Babe swung a 54-ounce bat. Who else could do that, while hitting .342 lifetime? And he led all of big league baseball in home runs for the last two seasons of the Dead Ball Era, 1918 and 1919.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Nicholas Stix

    And that is the reason that Babe Ruth, for the entire twentieth century, was considered the yardstick of the greatest of the greatest to ever play in MLB.

    He changed the darn game. Two of MLB's "three true outcomes" (HR & BB) are directly related to him. MLB is still playing his style, his way of playing--the HR centric sport is directly tied to him and him alone.

    Granted it is "not fair" to compare all HOFers to Babe Ruth, but that is my point. If a HOFer can be credibly put in the same sentence alongside Babe Ruth, then that player has been given the highest praise indeed. It also shows that that player definitely belongs in the HOF.

    Hank Aaron, one of the all time greats, because he broke MLB's greatest offensive career record. And Hank Aaron definitely belongs in the same sentence with Babe Ruth.

    , @R.G. Camara
    @Nicholas Stix

    Because he innovated it. Ruth "hacked" a new system.

    Prior to 1900-1910, baseball was played in open fields with no fences. Spectators sometimes roamed behind outfielders, and occasionally there was a rope or chalk line that they were supposed to stay behind, but if a ball got past an outfielder or even past the line, it was still in play. Outfielders ran to get the ball (sometimes fighting with fans for it), so hitters still had to race around the bases as fast as they could in the event they still got thrown out. There was no "home run trot".

    Then beginning in the 1900s, owners realized they could get a lot more profits if they fenced in parks and built stadium seating. So they did so. But land in cities being expensive, these parks often had snugger dimensions than the old open fields. And in the early 1910s, a slew of smaller parks got built: Fenway, Old Tiger Stadium, Wrigley date from this era. These parks forced baseball to make a rule that, if a ball went over the new fences, it became an automatic "home run", because otherwise outfielders would have had to comically climb the fence and try to get the balls.

    No one really thought about this rule change much, and the players kept playing the old way they had grown up playing, as if they were open fields. Until Ruth.

    Ruth was smart enough to realize this "automatic home run" new rule could potentially change the game and be more profitable to a hitter, if only he could unlearn his old deadball hitting ways and figure out how to launch balls upwards with enough momentum. And he did figure it out---and the rest is history,

    So Ruth was responding to a recent changes---the automatic home run in all the new, ubiquitous snug parks. No one was building new MLB parks without fences, ergo, every park was a automatic home run park.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Mike Tre, @ScarletNumber

  113. @Anonymous
    Self-styled "Noticer of Patterns" Sailer fails to notice that "excited" and "full of life" Hammerin' Hank Aaron croaks just a fortnight after getting the Moderna vaccine, a new type of experimental vaccine which uses messenger RNA...

    https://twitter.com/KHollowayWSB/status/1352641971890872324

    Replies: @Jack Armstrong, @Nicholas Stix, @kaganovitch, @Steve Sailer

    Self-styled “Noticer of Patterns” Sailer fails to notice that “excited” and “full of life” Hammerin’ Hank Aaron croaks just a fortnight after getting the Moderna vaccine, a new type of experimental vaccine which uses messenger RNA…

    Don’t know about you but I have ‘noticed’ that when the media describe 86 year olds restricted to wheelchairs they often describe them as “full of life”. It would probably be overly literal to draw conclusions about the life expectancy of said 86 year olds from that description.

  114. @Nicholas Stix
    @R.G. Camara

    Yeah, but the Babe swung a 54-ounce bat. Who else could do that, while hitting .342 lifetime? And he led all of big league baseball in home runs for the last two seasons of the Dead Ball Era, 1918 and 1919.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @R.G. Camara

    And that is the reason that Babe Ruth, for the entire twentieth century, was considered the yardstick of the greatest of the greatest to ever play in MLB.

    He changed the darn game. Two of MLB’s “three true outcomes” (HR & BB) are directly related to him. MLB is still playing his style, his way of playing–the HR centric sport is directly tied to him and him alone.

    Granted it is “not fair” to compare all HOFers to Babe Ruth, but that is my point. If a HOFer can be credibly put in the same sentence alongside Babe Ruth, then that player has been given the highest praise indeed. It also shows that that player definitely belongs in the HOF.

    Hank Aaron, one of the all time greats, because he broke MLB’s greatest offensive career record. And Hank Aaron definitely belongs in the same sentence with Babe Ruth.

  115. @Ganderson
    Inner circle HOFer. I’ve made this point before, but he was oddly underrated. I get the sense that most don’t put him in the same category as Mays and Mantle. R.G. suggests why above. They should though. And a lot of the headlines emphasize that he was a slugger- he was, but he was so much more. My favorite player growing up was Harmon Killebrew, a legit Hall of Famer. Aaron was an order of magnitude better than Harmon. I’d wager Harmon would agree.

    Replies: @kaganovitch, @ScarletNumber

    Inner circle HOFer. I’ve made this point before, but he was oddly underrated. I get the sense that most don’t put him in the same category as Mays and Mantle. R.G. suggests why above. They should though.

    Though he was , of course, an all time great, modern analytics support the idea that he wasn’t quite on the level of Mantle and Mays. Aaron’s highest Offensive W.A.R. total was 9.5 in 1963. He only exceeded 9 one other time in his career. Mantle exceeded 10.5 three times in his career. While Mays’s Off. WAR was similar to Aaron’s he was a much better fielder at a much harder defensive position, hence his overall value was higher. He exceeded 10 WAR 6 times in his career.
    Takes nothing away from Aaron who maintained peak production longer than anyone else, but his peak was not quite as great as their’s.

    • Replies: @Ganderson
    @kaganovitch

    Part of it is the old peak vs career value. As I said in another thread, Koufax at his peak was a better pitcher than Sutton, but Sutton had a better career.

    All of the players under discussion were very good players- even the hall of famers that don’t belong were good to very good players.

    You may be right about M and M vs Aaron, but he was still IMHO one of the top 10 players of all time.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @kaganovitch

  116. @Steve Sailer
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Generations ago, the Hall of Fame let in a whole bunch of 1920s New York Giants whom nobody remembers today.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @anonymous as usual

    And hundreds of thousands of guys who barely made their high school teams killed hundreds of thousands of Japs and Krauts.

    NOBODY FUCKING CARES IF SOME LITTLE GUY WAS GOOD AT A KID’S GAME.

    AND TELL ME WHAT HANK AARON EVER DID OUTSIDE OF BEING A BASEBALL PLAYER?

    I remember him as an angry black man who voted for all the crooked politicians who put Planned Parenthood clinics in black neighborhoods to keep the black population down.

    Sure I probably only would have stuck him out one out of ten at-bats, but so what, at least I was not a black guy who was too cowardly to call out Planned Parenthood for targeting the young black women in my neighborhood.

    • Replies: @anonymous as usual
    @anonymous as usual

    To be fair, I used to have a pretty good curve ball, but would only have struck him out 3 out of 20 at-bats, not one in ten ..... feel free to disagree, (3 out of 20 is not all that good a number, to be in the pros you need to strike major league hitters out a lot more than that.....) ......but I would probably have struck you out 19 out of 20 times, unless you were an AA level hitter.

    That being said ....

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @anonymous as usual

    , @anon
    @anonymous as usual


    NOBODY FUCKING CARES IF SOME LITTLE GUY WAS GOOD AT A KID’S GAME.
     
    sadly, they do

    you should be able to tell by the number of replies to this thread
  117. @anonymous as usual
    @Steve Sailer

    And hundreds of thousands of guys who barely made their high school teams killed hundreds of thousands of Japs and Krauts.

    NOBODY FUCKING CARES IF SOME LITTLE GUY WAS GOOD AT A KID'S GAME.

    AND TELL ME WHAT HANK AARON EVER DID OUTSIDE OF BEING A BASEBALL PLAYER?

    I remember him as an angry black man who voted for all the crooked politicians who put Planned Parenthood clinics in black neighborhoods to keep the black population down.

    Sure I probably only would have stuck him out one out of ten at-bats, but so what, at least I was not a black guy who was too cowardly to call out Planned Parenthood for targeting the young black women in my neighborhood.

    Replies: @anonymous as usual, @anon

    To be fair, I used to have a pretty good curve ball, but would only have struck him out 3 out of 20 at-bats, not one in ten ….. feel free to disagree, (3 out of 20 is not all that good a number, to be in the pros you need to strike major league hitters out a lot more than that…..) ……but I would probably have struck you out 19 out of 20 times, unless you were an AA level hitter.

    That being said ….

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @anonymous as usual

    Wow, Bert Blyleven! Great to have you as a commenter!

    Replies: @anonymous as usual

    , @anonymous as usual
    @anonymous as usual

    of course , I was referring to the average reader of this comment thread, in my version of the sort of people I would strike out 19 out of 20 times, and not referring to actual A level hitters, none of whom read Unz report, and who I would not strike out at that rate.

    so .... if you are reading this and thinking I do not know what I am talking about, well, unless you made AA, yes I would strike you out 19 out of 20 times.

    if you are not reading this, I am not including you in the count.

    It is difficult to communicate with people who get over-excited reading comment threads, but I try.

    Replies: @Danindc

  118. @anonymous as usual
    @anonymous as usual

    To be fair, I used to have a pretty good curve ball, but would only have struck him out 3 out of 20 at-bats, not one in ten ..... feel free to disagree, (3 out of 20 is not all that good a number, to be in the pros you need to strike major league hitters out a lot more than that.....) ......but I would probably have struck you out 19 out of 20 times, unless you were an AA level hitter.

    That being said ....

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @anonymous as usual

    Wow, Bert Blyleven! Great to have you as a commenter!

    • LOL: Buffalo Joe, JMcG
    • Replies: @anonymous as usual
    @Steve Sailer

    I like you, but you went too far there.

    AN AVERAGE HIGH SCHOOL PITCHER WOULD STRIKE OUT AN AVERAGE PRO PLAYER THREE OUT OF 20 TIMES, if you don't know that, you are very very ignorant about American baseball.

    That being said, jock-loving guys like you are why guys like me make money at poker games.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @The Last Real Calvinist

  119. @Bardon Kaldian
    Speaking of the recently deceased- I see that Larry King has gone to meet his maker. 7-8 marriages. I could never understand those men & women addicted to multiple marriages. 2 is OK, even 3.

    But over 4, c'mon, this is too much ....

    Replies: @kaganovitch

    Speaking of the recently deceased- I see that Larry King has gone to meet his maker. 7-8 marriages. I could never understand those men & women addicted to multiple marriages. 2 is OK, even 3.

    As the old saying goes “The triumph of hope over experience.”

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    @kaganovitch

    Kagi, at least he married them and didn't leave 14 or 15 kids scattered around.

  120. If you took away all of his home runs he still would have 3000 hits.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Magic Dirt Resident

    My vague impression is that Aaron was more of a slashing extra-base line-drive hitter like Stan Musial than a home run slugger like Harmon Killebrew until late in career when he started to concentrate on lofting cheap homeruns.

    Replies: @David In TN

  121. @Magic Dirt Resident
    If you took away all of his home runs he still would have 3000 hits.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    My vague impression is that Aaron was more of a slashing extra-base line-drive hitter like Stan Musial than a home run slugger like Harmon Killebrew until late in career when he started to concentrate on lofting cheap homeruns.

    • Replies: @David In TN
    @Steve Sailer

    As I've indicated, I observed Aaron on TV games from 1958 on. He was (especially as a Milwaukee Brave) a line-drive hitter with plenty of extra base hits, and lot of his line drives went high enough to go in the seats.

    When he went to Atlanta in 1966, Aaron did concentrate more on hitting home runs.

  122. @Desiderius
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    If you're old enough to have watched the Houston Gamblers (and that league was made for TV so they were on a lot) you can't argue about Kelly's dominance in his prime. Wonder how much Kelly's rep took a hit from how underrated Frank Reich was (see not coincidental recent Colts performance)?

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe

    Desi, I am hoping that the Bills don’t have Kelly on the sidelines when Buffalo plays Kansas City tomorrow. Kelly had four straight shots in the Super Bowl, never happened before or since .So wouldn’t that be his prime? In four SB games he threw for a total of 2 TDs and 7 ints. His four game QB Rating was 63.0. Kelly and the Bills had some great players but no SB Championship, which begs my original question, Why is Marv Levy in the HOF?

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @Buffalo Joe

    Didn’t the Broncos do something similar? Kelly always reminded me of Elway and Elway didn’t get the ring until he had a dominant rushing attack. Thomas racked up yards but like Barry Sanders was highly variant. Runners like that end up being like a second passing attack instead of a reliable 3-4 yards a pop when you need it.

    , @Danindc
    @Buffalo Joe

    Kelly played well in the only Super Bowl they had a chance to win. The first one. They were sacrificial lambs in the next three

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe

  123. @Steve Sailer
    @anonymous as usual

    Wow, Bert Blyleven! Great to have you as a commenter!

    Replies: @anonymous as usual

    I like you, but you went too far there.

    AN AVERAGE HIGH SCHOOL PITCHER WOULD STRIKE OUT AN AVERAGE PRO PLAYER THREE OUT OF 20 TIMES, if you don’t know that, you are very very ignorant about American baseball.

    That being said, jock-loving guys like you are why guys like me make money at poker games.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @anonymous as usual

    No. Major League pitchers only strike out Major League hitters about 22-23% of the time in 2019, even with the elevated strikeouts of recent years. The average high school pitcher would be be like Home Run Derby pitching for the average big league hitter.

    , @The Last Real Calvinist
    @anonymous as usual


    AN AVERAGE HIGH SCHOOL PITCHER WOULD STRIKE OUT AN AVERAGE PRO PLAYER THREE OUT OF 20 TIMES.

     

    LOL. I was an average high school pitcher, and I can assure you even a Mendoza-line MLB hitter would not have had the slightest difficulty absolutely pulverizing any of my offerings on my very best day.

    The gap between 'average' high school athletes and pros is vast.

    Replies: @Ganderson, @Marty, @Abolish_public_education

  124. @kaganovitch
    @Bardon Kaldian

    Speaking of the recently deceased- I see that Larry King has gone to meet his maker. 7-8 marriages. I could never understand those men & women addicted to multiple marriages. 2 is OK, even 3.

    As the old saying goes "The triumph of hope over experience."

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe

    Kagi, at least he married them and didn’t leave 14 or 15 kids scattered around.

  125. @anonymous as usual
    @Steve Sailer

    I like you, but you went too far there.

    AN AVERAGE HIGH SCHOOL PITCHER WOULD STRIKE OUT AN AVERAGE PRO PLAYER THREE OUT OF 20 TIMES, if you don't know that, you are very very ignorant about American baseball.

    That being said, jock-loving guys like you are why guys like me make money at poker games.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @The Last Real Calvinist

    No. Major League pitchers only strike out Major League hitters about 22-23% of the time in 2019, even with the elevated strikeouts of recent years. The average high school pitcher would be be like Home Run Derby pitching for the average big league hitter.

  126. No, not the ones who have good curve balls.

    Those guys strike out the best of the best three out of 20 times, even if the pitcher is in high school and the hitter is a highly trained pro. By the way, 3 out of 20 is not a lot – even batting practice pitchers generally throw one or two, out of ten, pitches that result in lazy fly balls, and going from 3 out of 20 as an amateur (150) to 220 as a pro is not as big a difference as you would think,

    Harmon Killebrew struck out three times in a row against a high school softball pitcher. I remember, I wasn’t there, but it happened.

    That being said, maybe you are right, you are one of the few guys on the internet who understands numbers, and maybe my numbers are off.

    But my little brother struck out a future star easily, and I was a much better pitcher than him. That being said, me and my little brother grew up in a place where baseball was a big thing. I have no doubt that, if I were who I was at 17 and Hank Aaron was who he was at 35, I would have struck him out 3 out of 20 times. you don’t have to believe me, but it is true.

  127. @anonymous as usual
    @anonymous as usual

    To be fair, I used to have a pretty good curve ball, but would only have struck him out 3 out of 20 at-bats, not one in ten ..... feel free to disagree, (3 out of 20 is not all that good a number, to be in the pros you need to strike major league hitters out a lot more than that.....) ......but I would probably have struck you out 19 out of 20 times, unless you were an AA level hitter.

    That being said ....

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @anonymous as usual

    of course , I was referring to the average reader of this comment thread, in my version of the sort of people I would strike out 19 out of 20 times, and not referring to actual A level hitters, none of whom read Unz report, and who I would not strike out at that rate.

    so …. if you are reading this and thinking I do not know what I am talking about, well, unless you made AA, yes I would strike you out 19 out of 20 times.

    if you are not reading this, I am not including you in the count.

    It is difficult to communicate with people who get over-excited reading comment threads, but I try.

    • Replies: @Danindc
    @anonymous as usual

    Can you take your autism elsewhere for a few weeks. We will miss me you after a short spell

  128. @Nicholas Stix
    @R.G. Camara

    Yeah, but the Babe swung a 54-ounce bat. Who else could do that, while hitting .342 lifetime? And he led all of big league baseball in home runs for the last two seasons of the Dead Ball Era, 1918 and 1919.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @R.G. Camara

    Because he innovated it. Ruth “hacked” a new system.

    Prior to 1900-1910, baseball was played in open fields with no fences. Spectators sometimes roamed behind outfielders, and occasionally there was a rope or chalk line that they were supposed to stay behind, but if a ball got past an outfielder or even past the line, it was still in play. Outfielders ran to get the ball (sometimes fighting with fans for it), so hitters still had to race around the bases as fast as they could in the event they still got thrown out. There was no “home run trot”.

    Then beginning in the 1900s, owners realized they could get a lot more profits if they fenced in parks and built stadium seating. So they did so. But land in cities being expensive, these parks often had snugger dimensions than the old open fields. And in the early 1910s, a slew of smaller parks got built: Fenway, Old Tiger Stadium, Wrigley date from this era. These parks forced baseball to make a rule that, if a ball went over the new fences, it became an automatic “home run”, because otherwise outfielders would have had to comically climb the fence and try to get the balls.

    No one really thought about this rule change much, and the players kept playing the old way they had grown up playing, as if they were open fields. Until Ruth.

    Ruth was smart enough to realize this “automatic home run” new rule could potentially change the game and be more profitable to a hitter, if only he could unlearn his old deadball hitting ways and figure out how to launch balls upwards with enough momentum. And he did figure it out—and the rest is history,

    So Ruth was responding to a recent changes—the automatic home run in all the new, ubiquitous snug parks. No one was building new MLB parks without fences, ergo, every park was a automatic home run park.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @R.G. Camara

    This is partly BS, or wishful thinking.

    FACT: From its inception in 1923, until the early/mid '30's, Yankee Stadium's power alleys were 449 to left center, and about 444 to right center.

    As Ruth was a power hitter, most of his HR's went to the power alleys and not right at the foul poles. This is a misnomer that most HR sluggers tend to hit their HR's at the foul poles. They dont, they tend to hit the majority (ca. 90%) of their HR's at the power alleys.

    Yankee Stadium was no exception but the rule for the concrete and steel ballparks of the 1910's and 1920's, the power alley's were at least 100FT further back than they are today, talking about 440 FT to the power alleys. Some CF's like the Polo Grounds, were 482 FT to straightaway center. Good luck hitting a ball over the fence from 482 FT away. Most ballparks weren't this extreme in their power alleys, but they were still further back than what they are today. Something to keep in mind when reading about players hitting 30, 40, etc HRs per yr back in the day, especially with farther back power alleys, where the majority of HR's tend to land.

    As Yankee Stadium was for most of its history a pitcher's park, Babe Ruth and many NY players like him, tended to hit the majority of his HR's on the road.

    And still he did it better than almost any MLB player of the twentieth century.

    Replies: @kaganovitch

    , @Mike Tre
    @R.G. Camara

    Any idea what Ruth’s fly out/pop out rate was? Young players are taught to “throw” their hands straight to the point of contact, and to not “drop them.” Dropping the hands creates that uppercut motion that results in making contact too low on the ball, leading to pop ups. However Ruth obviously had the strength to compensate for dropping his hands under the ball, by driving the ball sufficiently out as well as up.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    , @ScarletNumber
    @R.G. Camara

    It's not that Ruth figured out a new way of hitting. Rather, since he was a pitcher, no one cared that he didn't hit the traditional way. Therefore, he was free to do what he liked at the batters box.

  129. As a side note, I notice a lot of you racist pigs calling him “Hank” instead of Henry. Don’t you realize that that name was put on him condescendingly by his white team-mates early in his career in order to “be friends with him” and treating him as an equal instead of with equity? Just like “Richie” Allen and “Bob” Clemente, whose racist-names were also corrected.
    Last March:
    https://www.ajc.com/sports/baseball/hank-aaron-visits-braves-spring-training-for-street-naming/qtnr2lwuoDizEkAExoi0HI/

    • Replies: @Trinity
    @Father Coughlin

    "Hank" is racist? First time I ever heard that one. I have an uncle named Henry who was named after my grandfather and his son is Henry III, I/we called my uncle and cousin, "Hank." People called my grandfather Henry, but my uncle and his son were always called, "Hank" by everyone that knew them and they are/were whiter than cotton.

  130. @Morris Applebaum IV
    Interesting take on Barry Bonds. I've also felt he was basically forced into taking steroids. The same may be true with the other super-human player, Roger Clemens. He got beaten badly by the steroid infused A's.

    When you have a situation where honest people are only cheating themselves, you can't really blame anyone for cheating. (Which is why I admire Elizabeth Warren's creativity).

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    My guess is that Bonds and Clemens deserve to be in the Hall of Fame for their pre-PEDs careers. They should issue apologies detailing what they did. Then they should be elected, for their pre-PEDs careers.

    • Replies: @anonymous as usual
    @Steve Sailer

    I agree 100 percent.

    Fuck the apologies though, until Babe Ruth apologizes for what he did, and Willy Mays writes an expose on greenies.

    Replies: @Ron Mexico

  131. @Steve Sailer
    @Morris Applebaum IV

    My guess is that Bonds and Clemens deserve to be in the Hall of Fame for their pre-PEDs careers. They should issue apologies detailing what they did. Then they should be elected, for their pre-PEDs careers.

    Replies: @anonymous as usual

    I agree 100 percent.

    Fuck the apologies though, until Babe Ruth apologizes for what he did, and Willy Mays writes an expose on greenies.

    • Replies: @Ron Mexico
    @anonymous as usual

    The Babe should apologize for alcoholism? Gluttony?

    Replies: @anonymous as usual

  132. @kaganovitch
    @Ganderson

    Inner circle HOFer. I’ve made this point before, but he was oddly underrated. I get the sense that most don’t put him in the same category as Mays and Mantle. R.G. suggests why above. They should though.

    Though he was , of course, an all time great, modern analytics support the idea that he wasn't quite on the level of Mantle and Mays. Aaron's highest Offensive W.A.R. total was 9.5 in 1963. He only exceeded 9 one other time in his career. Mantle exceeded 10.5 three times in his career. While Mays's Off. WAR was similar to Aaron's he was a much better fielder at a much harder defensive position, hence his overall value was higher. He exceeded 10 WAR 6 times in his career.
    Takes nothing away from Aaron who maintained peak production longer than anyone else, but his peak was not quite as great as their's.

    Replies: @Ganderson

    Part of it is the old peak vs career value. As I said in another thread, Koufax at his peak was a better pitcher than Sutton, but Sutton had a better career.

    All of the players under discussion were very good players- even the hall of famers that don’t belong were good to very good players.

    You may be right about M and M vs Aaron, but he was still IMHO one of the top 10 players of all time.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Ganderson

    I think if May hadn't lost 1.75 years to military service in 1952-53, he would have broken Babe Ruth's career homer record in, say, September 1973, his last season. Then Aaron would have broken Mays' record the next spring.

    , @kaganovitch
    @Ganderson

    You may be right about M and M vs Aaron, but he was still IMHO one of the top 10 players of all time.

    Indeed.

  133. @Ganderson
    @kaganovitch

    Part of it is the old peak vs career value. As I said in another thread, Koufax at his peak was a better pitcher than Sutton, but Sutton had a better career.

    All of the players under discussion were very good players- even the hall of famers that don’t belong were good to very good players.

    You may be right about M and M vs Aaron, but he was still IMHO one of the top 10 players of all time.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @kaganovitch

    I think if May hadn’t lost 1.75 years to military service in 1952-53, he would have broken Babe Ruth’s career homer record in, say, September 1973, his last season. Then Aaron would have broken Mays’ record the next spring.

  134. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Buffalo Joe

    Regarding NFL most dominant QB's ever to play the game, Jim Kelly does not belong in the same
    sentence with:

    John Unitas (had 32 TD passes in a 12 game season, 1959. Over a sixteen game season, this translates to 48 TDs same as Marino in 84)
    Terry Bradshaw (first to win 4 SB championships)
    Joe Montana
    John Elway
    Dan Marino
    Brett Favre
    Peyton Manning (up for first yr eligibility this yr.)


    When viewed in this light, Jim Kelly really doesn't belong. But then you could also make a case that Steve Young doesn't belong in the HOF either. He was good, but not great.

    If you can induct Ron Santo and Jim Rice, then you can induct Dave Kingman and Al Oliver. Both have stats that are fairly comparable.

    Also, let's make something clear: Both Santo and Rice are emblematic of the overall problem with the voting process of any HOF. It has become political and popularity. This in turn dilutes the overall quality of what a true HOFer is. Ron Santo is not on the same level as Babe Ruth, pure and simple.

    "But that's not fair!" Goes the response. "Babe Ruth is among the greatest ever to play the game!"

    And my point is made. And Ron Santo is clearly not. Neither is Jim Rice. Jim Rice isn't even in the same sentence as his contemporary Reggie Jackson, much less Babe Ruth.

    And yet, Stan Musial, Ted Williams, Lou Gehrig, Ty Cobb, Tris Speaker, Rogers Hornsby, all belong in the same sentence with Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, and Babe Ruth. There is a true continuum among the names listed. They all can be equally compared to one another in the sense that they were among the greatest of the greatest of the greatest (whatever decimal percentage within the top 1%).

    Just being in the top 1% ever to play in MLB isn't good enough. That simply means that one was good enough to start as a regular, maybe made a few all star games, possibly won an MVP. That's called very good, and NOT among the greatest ever, once in a generation to step foot on the field of play.

    Nearly 100 yrs after he stopped playing, and people who casually follow MLB have heard of Babe Ruth. Ask them who Ron Santo and the likely response is "What the hell's that? A soft drink?"

    Some really don't see it. It cheapens the entire quality of what a HOF was intended to be: The greatest of the greatest of the greatest. If the top 1% to play the game is the elite exclusive club, within the club itself, is a tiny room called the VIP room. THAT room, the VIP, is reserved only for Babe Ruth, Lou Gehrig, Hank Aaron, Ted Williams, Stan Musial, etc.

    And now they've been letting in all the wrong players into the VIP.

    Politics and Popularity.

    If Ron Santo is in the HOF, then so belongs Dave Kingman (who has 60 more career HRs than Rice, by the way).

    OR...you do the correct thing by honoring the true HOFers and bar 99.999999999999999% and allow only the Babe Ruths, and Hank Aarons into the VIP elite exclusive place.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @R.G. Camara

    The baseball HOF is meaningless now with all the marginal guys having coming in thanks to their buddies on the veterans commission voting them in.

    And it became absolutely worthless when Bud Selig got in. Imagine putting in a slimy used car salesman (his family business) who drove his one and only franchise into the ground (the Brewers), then became commissioner and proceeded to cause:

    –the 94 world series cancellation
    –the rampant use of steroids in the sport, that he did nothing to stop or investigate, and outright encouraged
    -disastrous expansion efforts (the Marlins and Devil Rays perpetually have no fans)
    –the “tied” all-star game
    –interleague play destroying the historical and beloved separation of the leagues
    –the creation of playoff system so batty and everyone-gets-in and long it makes the NBA and NHL’s playoff system seem logical and exclusive by comparison.

    After Selig was put into the HOF, I realized the HOF was merely confirming what years of marginal players getting in had caused: Cooperstown is now a worthless joke.

    P.S. Selig was saved by all the homeruns from the steroid era (which drew eyeballs) and the Yankees/BoSox/WhiteSox/Cubs teams being center stage in the WS during his tenure, drawing tons. If it had been the Rockies/Twins/Mariners hogging that WS spotlight every year, Selig would’ve been out on his butt long before he left in 2015.

    • Agree: Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    • Replies: @JMcG
    @R.G. Camara

    Bud Selig and his foul works pretty much destroyed my interest in baseball. I couldn’t name a current player now.

  135. @kaganovitch
    @R.G. Camara

    Big City media bias and East Coast media bias. Reminds me of what happened to Robin Yount. Yount played on the obscure Brewers his entire career, and despite winning multiple MVP awards and being an outstanding athlete for decades (went from Gold Glove-caliber shortstop to Gold Glove-caliber centerfielder), could walk into any room on the East Coast and not be recognized. If Yount had played in a big media market, especially on the East Coast, he’d be celebrated as one of the greatest athletes of the 20th Century.

    While Yount was indeed a great player, he was hardly one of the greatest athletes of the 20th century. As I think I mentioned the last time he came up ,(perhaps Lou Brock thread?) he was hardly a Gold Glove CF. Defensive WAR stats rate him poorly as a CF, with a cumulative 6 losses above replacement as a CF. Statistically he was not quite as good as Cal Ripken. Around even offensively, much worse defensively. Cal Ripken--East Coaster though he was-- in turn , would not be nearly as well known absent the consecutive games played record.

    Replies: @R.G. Camara

    Yount was actually in the DiMaggio category—a great athlete and teammate who’s numbers didn’t reflect the athleticism and “class” and other intangibles people chalked up to him. Yount in NYC would’ve gotten a similar reception to DiMaggio, although not as great.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @R.G. Camara

    Yount won two MVP awards playing in Milwaukee.

    Do New York ballplayers get exaggerated regard? I dunno.

    The reason the NY Yankees have won so many World Series is because they had great players.

    , @kaganovitch
    @R.G. Camara

    Yount was actually in the DiMaggio category—a great athlete and teammate who’s numbers didn’t reflect the athleticism and “class” and other intangibles people chalked up to him. Yount in NYC would’ve gotten a similar reception to DiMaggio, although not as great.

    I can't say I see the comparison. Joe D. wasn't really a very classy guy, much more of a goomba than generally realized. I don't think he was the greatest teammate either, he was kind of petty. Yount was his superior in both those categories. As a ballplayer however, Joe D. was much ,much better. His career OPS is 200 points higher. His OPS+ is 40 points higher. He amassed as much W.A.R. in a little more than half as many at bats. No amount of press would change that.

    Replies: @R.G. Camara

    , @Reg Cæsar
    @R.G. Camara


    Yount in NYC would’ve gotten a similar reception to DiMaggio...
     
    In the Bronx. Not in Flushing. Hear of any Mets, Jets, Nets, Rangers, or Islanders lately?

    Of course, Milwaukee is Ultima Thule. That's why nobody ever heard of Henry Aaron till he moved to Atlanta.
  136. @Reg Cæsar
    @Abolish_public_education


    A “hitters” park? Understatement.

    I always heard Atlanta-Fulton County Stadium described as a “wind tunnel”.
     
    Until Denver got a team, Atlanta was the highest city in the majors. Altitude makes a big difference.

    Replies: @Abolish_public_education

    There must be a lot of scientific research out there regarding the effects of high/low altitude stadiums.

    As an educated guess, high altitude should be bad news for breaking balls, but good news for fastballs.

    I much prefer the hard science over speculative statistics. For instance, how air temperature affects the materiel properties of the bat/ball is a useful measure. Trying to normalize, idk, the career batting average of a player for stadium latitude (“He should be in the HOF!”) is hopelessly debatable.

    Coming soon to a JumboTron near you: The vector field of laminar airflow above the stadium floor, at 10-ft elevation intervals.

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    @Abolish_public_education

    As an educated guess, high altitude should be bad news for breaking balls, but good news for fastballs.

    It seems to be true of breaking balls, not so true of fastballs. No good pitcher ever wants to sign with the Colorado Rockies because of the high altitude effect on pitching.

    Here are a couple of articles on the general problem of pitching at Coors Field.

    http://baseball.physics.illinois.edu/Denver.html

    https://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2019/7/17/20696070/juiced-baseball-colorado-rockies-pitchers-problem-steve-foster-freeland-marquez-gray-shaw-mcgee

    Replies: @Abolish_public_education

  137. @R.G. Camara
    @kaganovitch

    Yount was actually in the DiMaggio category---a great athlete and teammate who's numbers didn't reflect the athleticism and "class" and other intangibles people chalked up to him. Yount in NYC would've gotten a similar reception to DiMaggio, although not as great.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @kaganovitch, @Reg Cæsar

    Yount won two MVP awards playing in Milwaukee.

    Do New York ballplayers get exaggerated regard? I dunno.

    The reason the NY Yankees have won so many World Series is because they had great players.

  138. @Abolish_public_education
    @Reg Cæsar

    There must be a lot of scientific research out there regarding the effects of high/low altitude stadiums.

    As an educated guess, high altitude should be bad news for breaking balls, but good news for fastballs.

    I much prefer the hard science over speculative statistics. For instance, how air temperature affects the materiel properties of the bat/ball is a useful measure. Trying to normalize, idk, the career batting average of a player for stadium latitude (“He should be in the HOF!”) is hopelessly debatable.

    Coming soon to a JumboTron near you: The vector field of laminar airflow above the stadium floor, at 10-ft elevation intervals.

    Replies: @kaganovitch

    As an educated guess, high altitude should be bad news for breaking balls, but good news for fastballs.

    It seems to be true of breaking balls, not so true of fastballs. No good pitcher ever wants to sign with the Colorado Rockies because of the high altitude effect on pitching.

    Here are a couple of articles on the general problem of pitching at Coors Field.

    http://baseball.physics.illinois.edu/Denver.html

    https://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2019/7/17/20696070/juiced-baseball-colorado-rockies-pitchers-problem-steve-foster-freeland-marquez-gray-shaw-mcgee

    • Replies: @Abolish_public_education
    @kaganovitch

    I know that I have previously read some of that guy’s articles. Excellent material.

    My “educated guess” was consistent with the author’s (theoretical) findings.

    Regarding the fastball at Coors, reduced air density at altitude will reduce drag, so that the ball will lose less velocity on its way to the plate (i.e. good news for fastballs).

    From what I’ve read around here recently, another key to a good fastball is movement. At Coors, such movement should lessen (i.e. bad news).

    My undergrad, Intro Physics assigned text (for life sci majors) might have been the only one of its kind, back then in ancient times (til today?), which had a (short) section on the Magnus force.

    As I was then a BB fan, I took particular interest in that section. The otherwise awful book — then in its 3rd edition — was authored by the profster who taught the course every year. Hmm.

    Replies: @kaganovitch

  139. Yount won two MVP awards playing in Milwaukee.

    MVP awards are voted on by sportswriters, not given by fans or strictly on numbers. Usually, that makes it a worthless award —media charmers can often get an MVP without doing as well as others— but when a more obscure player (like Yount) wins them—then the player is probably overlooked.

    Do New York ballplayers get exaggerated regard?

    They get exaggerated in the media hype. Prime example: Derek Jeter, a very good hitting, so-so fielding shortstop for his career, who was good in the clutch. On most teams, such a guy would be HOF, but would’ve quietly moved to third/ outfield/DH in the latter half of his career. But Jeter was hyped as a great shortstop by the Yankees media machine and managed to use it to cut A-Rod off from taking the SS position from him when A-Rod came to NYC, hurting the Yankees–A-Roids was a better fielding SS than Jeter by a degree.

    Switch a same-aged Jeter for a same-aged Yount on their teams, and you’d get a very similar story for both—Jeter the forgotten multi-MVP award winner in the midwest, Yount the over-hyped “Yankee captain” at SS.

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    @R.G. Camara

    Switch a same-aged Jeter for a same-aged Yount on their teams, and you’d get a very similar story for both—Jeter the forgotten multi-MVP award winner in the midwest, Yount the over-hyped “Yankee captain” at SS.


    You're probably right about that. I think Yankee hatred was probably responsible for Jeter losing the MVP to Morneau in '06 though.

    Replies: @R.G. Camara, @Ganderson

    , @Nicholas Stix
    @R.G. Camara

    Well, something had to give. Somebody had to play third, and someone had to play short. The few times I saw the Yankees play (against the Mets?) when Jeter and Rodriguez were together, Rodriguez was putting on a clinic at third. It was some of the best defensive play I'd ever seen at the hot corner, since Brooks Robby retired.

    I also suspect that the Yankees brass moved Rodriguez to third, in order to show him that this was Derek Jeter's team, not Rodriguez.' When Rodriguez signed with the team, he spouted off arrogantly in ways that suggested that he thought it would now be his team.

    Replies: @R.G. Camara

  140. @Trinity
    Home runs per at bat kings.

    Mark McGwire 10.61
    Babe Ruth 11.76
    Bonds 12.92
    Jim Thome 13.76 * I believe Thome was natural as well
    Ralph Kiner 14.11

    I mentioned Mays, Mantle, and Ted Williams earlier and I will add Aaron. These guys were further down the list.

    Ted Williams tied Harmon Killebrew at 14.22
    Mickey Mantle 15.12
    Aaron 16.38
    Mays 16.44

    Is there really any doubt who the REAL home run king was? Also Ruth started out as a pitcher, a pretty good one at that, how many dingers did that cost him. Like I said it took Aaron 4,000 more at bats to barely beat Ruth by 41 home runs. At a ratio of a home run every 11.76 at bats, you do the math.

    Replies: @Deckin, @R.G. Camara, @R.G. Camara

    Also Ruth started out as a pitcher, a pretty good one at that, how many dingers did that cost him.

    Not many. Remember, Ruth spent his off-days from pitching trying to change his swing to an uppercut and start hitting homeruns. He’d been schooled in the deadball era ways, it took him a bit to fix it.

    Also, you don’t notice that Ruth’s opposing pitchers had to adjust to his style versus all the other deadball, slash-and-bunt players, and how difficult that was for them, especially when the rabbit ball came in. It would be like if every NFL team played run-only for decades then all of a sudden Tom Brady walked onto the field and started throwing passes downfield; it would take teams a while to adjust to both the radically different offense and also the fact that it was a extremely talented, HOF player doing the offense maneuver. In such an era, we’d expect Brady’s numbers to be super-human (more than they are now), as we should Ruth.

  141. @Trinity
    Home runs per at bat kings.

    Mark McGwire 10.61
    Babe Ruth 11.76
    Bonds 12.92
    Jim Thome 13.76 * I believe Thome was natural as well
    Ralph Kiner 14.11

    I mentioned Mays, Mantle, and Ted Williams earlier and I will add Aaron. These guys were further down the list.

    Ted Williams tied Harmon Killebrew at 14.22
    Mickey Mantle 15.12
    Aaron 16.38
    Mays 16.44

    Is there really any doubt who the REAL home run king was? Also Ruth started out as a pitcher, a pretty good one at that, how many dingers did that cost him. Like I said it took Aaron 4,000 more at bats to barely beat Ruth by 41 home runs. At a ratio of a home run every 11.76 at bats, you do the math.

    Replies: @Deckin, @R.G. Camara, @R.G. Camara

    Also Ruth started out as a pitcher, a pretty good one at that, how many dingers did that cost him.

    Not many. Remember, Ruth spent his off-days from pitching trying to change his swing to an uppercut and start hitting homeruns. He’d been schooled in the deadball era ways, it took him a bit to fix it.

    Also, you don’t notice that Ruth’s opposing pitchers had to adjust to his style versus all the other deadball, slash-and-bunt players, and how difficult that was for them, especially when the rabbit ball came in. It would be like if every NFL team played run-only for decades then all of a sudden Tom Brady walked onto the field and started throwing passes downfield; it would take teams a while to adjust to both the radically different offense and also the fact that it was a extremely talented, HOF player doing the offense maneuver. In such an era, we’d expect Brady’s numbers to be super-human (more than they are now), as we should Ruth.

  142. @R.G. Camara
    @kaganovitch

    Yount was actually in the DiMaggio category---a great athlete and teammate who's numbers didn't reflect the athleticism and "class" and other intangibles people chalked up to him. Yount in NYC would've gotten a similar reception to DiMaggio, although not as great.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @kaganovitch, @Reg Cæsar

    Yount was actually in the DiMaggio category—a great athlete and teammate who’s numbers didn’t reflect the athleticism and “class” and other intangibles people chalked up to him. Yount in NYC would’ve gotten a similar reception to DiMaggio, although not as great.

    I can’t say I see the comparison. Joe D. wasn’t really a very classy guy, much more of a goomba than generally realized. I don’t think he was the greatest teammate either, he was kind of petty. Yount was his superior in both those categories. As a ballplayer however, Joe D. was much ,much better. His career OPS is 200 points higher. His OPS+ is 40 points higher. He amassed as much W.A.R. in a little more than half as many at bats. No amount of press would change that.

    • Replies: @R.G. Camara
    @kaganovitch

    Whatever the truth about DiMaggio was, the image was one of style and class. But you're right, as I stated, Joe was a better player than Yount, but they were in the same category of intangibly better players than their numbers belied.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Ganderson, @Trinity

  143. @R.G. Camara

    Yount won two MVP awards playing in Milwaukee.
     
    MVP awards are voted on by sportswriters, not given by fans or strictly on numbers. Usually, that makes it a worthless award ---media charmers can often get an MVP without doing as well as others--- but when a more obscure player (like Yount) wins them---then the player is probably overlooked.

    Do New York ballplayers get exaggerated regard?
     
    They get exaggerated in the media hype. Prime example: Derek Jeter, a very good hitting, so-so fielding shortstop for his career, who was good in the clutch. On most teams, such a guy would be HOF, but would've quietly moved to third/ outfield/DH in the latter half of his career. But Jeter was hyped as a great shortstop by the Yankees media machine and managed to use it to cut A-Rod off from taking the SS position from him when A-Rod came to NYC, hurting the Yankees--A-Roids was a better fielding SS than Jeter by a degree.

    Switch a same-aged Jeter for a same-aged Yount on their teams, and you'd get a very similar story for both---Jeter the forgotten multi-MVP award winner in the midwest, Yount the over-hyped "Yankee captain" at SS.

    Replies: @kaganovitch, @Nicholas Stix

    Switch a same-aged Jeter for a same-aged Yount on their teams, and you’d get a very similar story for both—Jeter the forgotten multi-MVP award winner in the midwest, Yount the over-hyped “Yankee captain” at SS.

    You’re probably right about that. I think Yankee hatred was probably responsible for Jeter losing the MVP to Morneau in ’06 though.

    • Agree: R.G. Camara
    • Replies: @R.G. Camara
    @kaganovitch

    Likely.

    Jeter will always be a bigger legend in NYC than he should be, and a smaller legend outside NYC than he should be.

    But I don't feel too bad for the mulatto pretty boy. Banged a ton of high-end ass as the leader and biggest star of the WS champs in the biggest city in the U.S.

    All while being able to quietly be ignored when he needed to as some other NYC celebrity was having a moment. Being a star in NYC has its advantages like that, which is why so many celebs keep homes there---its nice to be simultaneously famous and not famous at the same time. Schrodinger's Cat of celebrity.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    , @Ganderson
    @kaganovitch

    Morneau was one of my favorite players- I was happy when he got the MVP, but he didn’t really deserve it.

  144. @R.G. Camara
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    The baseball HOF is meaningless now with all the marginal guys having coming in thanks to their buddies on the veterans commission voting them in.

    And it became absolutely worthless when Bud Selig got in. Imagine putting in a slimy used car salesman (his family business) who drove his one and only franchise into the ground (the Brewers), then became commissioner and proceeded to cause:

    --the 94 world series cancellation
    --the rampant use of steroids in the sport, that he did nothing to stop or investigate, and outright encouraged
    -disastrous expansion efforts (the Marlins and Devil Rays perpetually have no fans)
    --the "tied" all-star game
    --interleague play destroying the historical and beloved separation of the leagues
    --the creation of playoff system so batty and everyone-gets-in and long it makes the NBA and NHL's playoff system seem logical and exclusive by comparison.

    After Selig was put into the HOF, I realized the HOF was merely confirming what years of marginal players getting in had caused: Cooperstown is now a worthless joke.

    P.S. Selig was saved by all the homeruns from the steroid era (which drew eyeballs) and the Yankees/BoSox/WhiteSox/Cubs teams being center stage in the WS during his tenure, drawing tons. If it had been the Rockies/Twins/Mariners hogging that WS spotlight every year, Selig would've been out on his butt long before he left in 2015.

    Replies: @JMcG

    Bud Selig and his foul works pretty much destroyed my interest in baseball. I couldn’t name a current player now.

  145. @kaganovitch
    @R.G. Camara

    Switch a same-aged Jeter for a same-aged Yount on their teams, and you’d get a very similar story for both—Jeter the forgotten multi-MVP award winner in the midwest, Yount the over-hyped “Yankee captain” at SS.


    You're probably right about that. I think Yankee hatred was probably responsible for Jeter losing the MVP to Morneau in '06 though.

    Replies: @R.G. Camara, @Ganderson

    Likely.

    Jeter will always be a bigger legend in NYC than he should be, and a smaller legend outside NYC than he should be.

    But I don’t feel too bad for the mulatto pretty boy. Banged a ton of high-end ass as the leader and biggest star of the WS champs in the biggest city in the U.S.

    All while being able to quietly be ignored when he needed to as some other NYC celebrity was having a moment. Being a star in NYC has its advantages like that, which is why so many celebs keep homes there—its nice to be simultaneously famous and not famous at the same time. Schrodinger’s Cat of celebrity.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @R.G. Camara

    With the advent of Social Media, total anonymity, even in NY, is getting harder and harder. Jeter benefitted by beginning his career, actually the first half of his career, was played before the advent of Social Media, and smart phones. Nowadays a famous athlete in NY at a club or somewhere else can be snapped by a phone camera, and its on social media in minutes, and possibly has over a million clicks within a few hrs. These are things that Jeter didn't have to worry about.

  146. @kaganovitch
    @R.G. Camara

    Yount was actually in the DiMaggio category—a great athlete and teammate who’s numbers didn’t reflect the athleticism and “class” and other intangibles people chalked up to him. Yount in NYC would’ve gotten a similar reception to DiMaggio, although not as great.

    I can't say I see the comparison. Joe D. wasn't really a very classy guy, much more of a goomba than generally realized. I don't think he was the greatest teammate either, he was kind of petty. Yount was his superior in both those categories. As a ballplayer however, Joe D. was much ,much better. His career OPS is 200 points higher. His OPS+ is 40 points higher. He amassed as much W.A.R. in a little more than half as many at bats. No amount of press would change that.

    Replies: @R.G. Camara

    Whatever the truth about DiMaggio was, the image was one of style and class. But you’re right, as I stated, Joe was a better player than Yount, but they were in the same category of intangibly better players than their numbers belied.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @R.G. Camara

    DiMaggio's statistics on the road were outstanding. At home, the very deep power alley in Yankee Stadium robbed him of more than a few homers.

    Replies: @kaganovitch, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    , @Ganderson
    @R.G. Camara

    Joe’s brother Dom was a good player, too, not in Joe’s class, but certainly one of the best OFs to don the scarlet hose.

    , @Trinity
    @R.G. Camara

    Mickey Mantle couldn't stand DiMaggio and from what I heard a lot of other Yankees couldn't as well. My guess is the public image of Joe DiMaggio was a farce and he was a world class asshole. Ted Williams was an ass to, but I agree with Teddy Ballgame about one thing, Boston sucks. Williams hated Boston so he can't be all bad. hehe.

    Replies: @R.G. Camara

  147. @Buffalo Joe
    @Desiderius

    Desi, I am hoping that the Bills don't have Kelly on the sidelines when Buffalo plays Kansas City tomorrow. Kelly had four straight shots in the Super Bowl, never happened before or since .So wouldn't that be his prime? In four SB games he threw for a total of 2 TDs and 7 ints. His four game QB Rating was 63.0. Kelly and the Bills had some great players but no SB Championship, which begs my original question, Why is Marv Levy in the HOF?

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Danindc

    Didn’t the Broncos do something similar? Kelly always reminded me of Elway and Elway didn’t get the ring until he had a dominant rushing attack. Thomas racked up yards but like Barry Sanders was highly variant. Runners like that end up being like a second passing attack instead of a reliable 3-4 yards a pop when you need it.

  148. @anonymous as usual
    @Steve Sailer

    I like you, but you went too far there.

    AN AVERAGE HIGH SCHOOL PITCHER WOULD STRIKE OUT AN AVERAGE PRO PLAYER THREE OUT OF 20 TIMES, if you don't know that, you are very very ignorant about American baseball.

    That being said, jock-loving guys like you are why guys like me make money at poker games.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @The Last Real Calvinist

    AN AVERAGE HIGH SCHOOL PITCHER WOULD STRIKE OUT AN AVERAGE PRO PLAYER THREE OUT OF 20 TIMES.

    LOL. I was an average high school pitcher, and I can assure you even a Mendoza-line MLB hitter would not have had the slightest difficulty absolutely pulverizing any of my offerings on my very best day.

    The gap between ‘average’ high school athletes and pros is vast.

    • Replies: @Ganderson
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    Before retirement I was the lax coach at my HS. One day in class, a class that had a bunch of baseball players, they were talking about their coach. I heard the comment “ Coach wasn’t that good, he only made up to AA.” I told them that that means he was the best baseball player any of them personally knew. He got paid to play baseball! I’ve not played baseball with any pros, but have played with a lot of pro and college hockey players. Even when I dream about being good I’m not even close to as good as any of them. On the other hand, I probably a better skater that everyone in India....

    Yeah I know, why were you talking about baseball in Econ class....

    , @Marty
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    Most high school stars don’t survive ‘A’ ball.

    , @Abolish_public_education
    @The Last Real Calvinist

    The gap between pros and world class pros is vast.

  149. @R.G. Camara

    Yount won two MVP awards playing in Milwaukee.
     
    MVP awards are voted on by sportswriters, not given by fans or strictly on numbers. Usually, that makes it a worthless award ---media charmers can often get an MVP without doing as well as others--- but when a more obscure player (like Yount) wins them---then the player is probably overlooked.

    Do New York ballplayers get exaggerated regard?
     
    They get exaggerated in the media hype. Prime example: Derek Jeter, a very good hitting, so-so fielding shortstop for his career, who was good in the clutch. On most teams, such a guy would be HOF, but would've quietly moved to third/ outfield/DH in the latter half of his career. But Jeter was hyped as a great shortstop by the Yankees media machine and managed to use it to cut A-Rod off from taking the SS position from him when A-Rod came to NYC, hurting the Yankees--A-Roids was a better fielding SS than Jeter by a degree.

    Switch a same-aged Jeter for a same-aged Yount on their teams, and you'd get a very similar story for both---Jeter the forgotten multi-MVP award winner in the midwest, Yount the over-hyped "Yankee captain" at SS.

    Replies: @kaganovitch, @Nicholas Stix

    Well, something had to give. Somebody had to play third, and someone had to play short. The few times I saw the Yankees play (against the Mets?) when Jeter and Rodriguez were together, Rodriguez was putting on a clinic at third. It was some of the best defensive play I’d ever seen at the hot corner, since Brooks Robby retired.

    I also suspect that the Yankees brass moved Rodriguez to third, in order to show him that this was Derek Jeter’s team, not Rodriguez.’ When Rodriguez signed with the team, he spouted off arrogantly in ways that suggested that he thought it would now be his team.

    • Replies: @R.G. Camara
    @Nicholas Stix


    When Rodriguez signed with the team, he spouted off arrogantly in ways that suggested that he thought it would now be his team.
     
    A-Roids modeled his public persona on Cal Ripken but forgot that Ripken stayed with his small-market team his entire career (the Orioles), and thus was able to control the press and management quite well. A-Roids, meanwhile, jumped ship from Seattle (where he could've pulled a Ripken) and ran to Texas for the $$$, and then engineered a trade to the Yankees when his schtick didn't work in Texas and the Yankees looked like the dominant power for the next few years.

    A-Roids's career is like Brett Favre, in that the moment they left their original small-market team, all of their good press and press control evaporated and they were exposed.

    A-Roids, once exposed, came off as very needy of fame, to the point of being a copycat. When George Clooney started dating ex-WWE diva Stacey Keibler, A-Roids immediately (and very publicly) hooked up with ex-WWE diva Torrie Wilson. I remember reading about it and laughing that A-Roids was blatantly copying Clooney to get more press and get people to compare them.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  150. @R.G. Camara
    @kaganovitch

    Whatever the truth about DiMaggio was, the image was one of style and class. But you're right, as I stated, Joe was a better player than Yount, but they were in the same category of intangibly better players than their numbers belied.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Ganderson, @Trinity

    DiMaggio’s statistics on the road were outstanding. At home, the very deep power alley in Yankee Stadium robbed him of more than a few homers.

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    @Steve Sailer

    DiMaggio’s statistics on the road were outstanding. At home, the very deep power alley in Yankee Stadium robbed him of more than a few homers.

    A .611 lifetime slugging percentage on the road. Outstanding indeed.

    Replies: @ganderson

    , @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Steve Sailer

    The same power alleys also robbed Ruth, Gehrig, and Mantle as well. Yankee Stadium was a pitcher's park, as many ballparks of the 1920's and 1930's tended to be. And still total HR output increased ten fold over the dead ball era.

  151. @HA
    According to the Braves, "Aaron died peacefully in his sleep."

    Also, from the same article:


    The World Health Organization this week released findings after a series of deaths in elderly people with severe illness in nursing homes in Norway caused concerns about vaccination, but the review didn’t find evidence that the Pfizer vaccine caused the deaths.
     

    Obviously, that's not going to assuage anyone who wants to believe the vaccine will turn us into "dog-boy and pig-girl", but for what it's worth, it may well turn out to be that getting a bunch of small jabs (or something like that) would be a more effective and way to deliver this vaccine to an elderly person. Vaccine trials are, by necessity, procrustean beds and it's impossible to tailor them for everyone right out the gate.

    In any case, if a vaccine was what caused him to die peacefully in his sleep two weeks later, maybe he's not a great candidate to weather actual full-blown COVID either, and I don't recall any of the anti-vaxxers shedding tears for Herman Cain, or wondering whether Trump's tail-end slide into extra-extra-bizarre behavior (i.e. even by his already anomalous standards) might have had anything to do with the lingering effects of COVID-on-the-brain, or whatever it is that they used to cure him. And I doubt Cain died peacefully in his sleep, at least not without a stiff dose of morphine.

    Replies: @Desiderius, @LondonBob

    Moderna is even worse than Pfizer for adverse reactions.

  152. @kaganovitch
    @R.G. Camara

    Switch a same-aged Jeter for a same-aged Yount on their teams, and you’d get a very similar story for both—Jeter the forgotten multi-MVP award winner in the midwest, Yount the over-hyped “Yankee captain” at SS.


    You're probably right about that. I think Yankee hatred was probably responsible for Jeter losing the MVP to Morneau in '06 though.

    Replies: @R.G. Camara, @Ganderson

    Morneau was one of my favorite players- I was happy when he got the MVP, but he didn’t really deserve it.

  153. @R.G. Camara
    @kaganovitch

    Whatever the truth about DiMaggio was, the image was one of style and class. But you're right, as I stated, Joe was a better player than Yount, but they were in the same category of intangibly better players than their numbers belied.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Ganderson, @Trinity

    Joe’s brother Dom was a good player, too, not in Joe’s class, but certainly one of the best OFs to don the scarlet hose.

  154. @The Last Real Calvinist
    @anonymous as usual


    AN AVERAGE HIGH SCHOOL PITCHER WOULD STRIKE OUT AN AVERAGE PRO PLAYER THREE OUT OF 20 TIMES.

     

    LOL. I was an average high school pitcher, and I can assure you even a Mendoza-line MLB hitter would not have had the slightest difficulty absolutely pulverizing any of my offerings on my very best day.

    The gap between 'average' high school athletes and pros is vast.

    Replies: @Ganderson, @Marty, @Abolish_public_education

    Before retirement I was the lax coach at my HS. One day in class, a class that had a bunch of baseball players, they were talking about their coach. I heard the comment “ Coach wasn’t that good, he only made up to AA.” I told them that that means he was the best baseball player any of them personally knew. He got paid to play baseball! I’ve not played baseball with any pros, but have played with a lot of pro and college hockey players. Even when I dream about being good I’m not even close to as good as any of them. On the other hand, I probably a better skater that everyone in India….

    Yeah I know, why were you talking about baseball in Econ class….

  155. @Marty
    @Trinity

    Barry’s arm was well below average. Well known story about Bill Virdon coaching him to camouflage it with a quick release. When Jim Leyland famously blew up at Bonds in spring training, it was because Bonds was ignoring Virdon. But he could jump, like Rickey and Griffey.

    Replies: @Trinity, @ScarletNumber

    No Barry Bonds had a helluva arm you are mistaken. Bonds was a five tool player. Like him or hate him, and most hate him including me, Bonds and Mays were the best all around players ever IMO.

  156. @Trinity
    @Ganderson

    Darrell Evans had a career batting average of .248, are you kidding me? Darrell hit 400 homers, 414 to be exact, but so did Dave Kingman who hit 442 dingers but batted a paltry .238. Dwight Evans was a helluva fielder and won 8 gold gloves, he was good but not HOF material. It took Ron Santo and Jim Rice years to get to the HOF, both guys were a couple levels above Darrell and a level above Dwight.

    Replies: @njguy73, @Ganderson, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Up2Drew

    Ron Santo career road statistics (like many Cubs):

    1107 games played, .257 BA, .342 OBP, 126 HR.

    Home:

    1136, .296, .383, 216 HR.

    A Wrigley Field creation.

  157. @Father Coughlin
    As a side note, I notice a lot of you racist pigs calling him "Hank" instead of Henry. Don't you realize that that name was put on him condescendingly by his white team-mates early in his career in order to "be friends with him" and treating him as an equal instead of with equity? Just like "Richie" Allen and "Bob" Clemente, whose racist-names were also corrected.
    Last March:
    https://www.ajc.com/sports/baseball/hank-aaron-visits-braves-spring-training-for-street-naming/qtnr2lwuoDizEkAExoi0HI/

    Replies: @Trinity

    “Hank” is racist? First time I ever heard that one. I have an uncle named Henry who was named after my grandfather and his son is Henry III, I/we called my uncle and cousin, “Hank.” People called my grandfather Henry, but my uncle and his son were always called, “Hank” by everyone that knew them and they are/were whiter than cotton.

  158. @R.G. Camara
    @kaganovitch

    Whatever the truth about DiMaggio was, the image was one of style and class. But you're right, as I stated, Joe was a better player than Yount, but they were in the same category of intangibly better players than their numbers belied.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Ganderson, @Trinity

    Mickey Mantle couldn’t stand DiMaggio and from what I heard a lot of other Yankees couldn’t as well. My guess is the public image of Joe DiMaggio was a farce and he was a world class asshole. Ted Williams was an ass to, but I agree with Teddy Ballgame about one thing, Boston sucks. Williams hated Boston so he can’t be all bad. hehe.

    • Replies: @R.G. Camara
    @Trinity

    Williams didn't hate Boston, he hated Boston sportswriters. He would notoriously glare at the pressbox after hitting a homerun and spit at it as he trotted the bases. The only time he didn't do it was at his final homerun (which occurred at his final at bat).

    Williams was deep red John Wayne type guy, and hated the lefty sportswriters gossip hounds with a passion.

  159. @Buffalo Joe
    @Desiderius

    Desi, I am hoping that the Bills don't have Kelly on the sidelines when Buffalo plays Kansas City tomorrow. Kelly had four straight shots in the Super Bowl, never happened before or since .So wouldn't that be his prime? In four SB games he threw for a total of 2 TDs and 7 ints. His four game QB Rating was 63.0. Kelly and the Bills had some great players but no SB Championship, which begs my original question, Why is Marv Levy in the HOF?

    Replies: @Desiderius, @Danindc

    Kelly played well in the only Super Bowl they had a chance to win. The first one. They were sacrificial lambs in the next three

    • Replies: @Buffalo Joe
    @Danindc

    Dan, Thurman Thomas played well in Super Bowl 25, their first shot at the crown. Kelly was 18 of 30 for 212 yards and no TDs and a QB Rating of 81.5. Not too stellar.

    Replies: @Danindc

  160. @anonymous as usual
    @anonymous as usual

    of course , I was referring to the average reader of this comment thread, in my version of the sort of people I would strike out 19 out of 20 times, and not referring to actual A level hitters, none of whom read Unz report, and who I would not strike out at that rate.

    so .... if you are reading this and thinking I do not know what I am talking about, well, unless you made AA, yes I would strike you out 19 out of 20 times.

    if you are not reading this, I am not including you in the count.

    It is difficult to communicate with people who get over-excited reading comment threads, but I try.

    Replies: @Danindc

    Can you take your autism elsewhere for a few weeks. We will miss me you after a short spell

  161. @Muggles
    MLB is probably without a doubt the most analyzed and statistically evaluated sport of all time, especially in the US. Of course it has been around a long time and stats were almost from the beginning kept in great detail.

    Aaron was undoubtedly at or near the top, as a hitter.

    But like many here note, over time conditions change: ball energy, bat specs, ballpark wall distances, rules (like the bouncing home runs) and the number of games/teams played in a season. Travel, much easier now but more of it. More players. PED rules. Pot not very helpful, or LSD, but Ruth showed booze didn't hurt, maybe helped him. Still not done much now.

    Pitching is now much better, faster, trickier. Ruth was remarkable, stellar, But he wouldn't be pitching now in any league (probably). Hence century old comparisons are only rough estimates. Players are now from overseas, mainly Latin America. They start playing very young there, Coaching is better. Earlier, better physical conditioning. All are factors.

    Even Japan has produced some good players.

    One thing Bonds, Aaron, Mays and others disprove: yes, blacks can play baseball well. Many now go into other sports, but they are still able to become baseball elites. More Latinos now for sure. It used to be exclusively domestic white. Many good white players still, but racially it is far more "diverse." Depending on how you count Hispanics, which ones. Doesn't really matter if they are all playing at the same time in the same parks, the same equipment, rules.

    In all sports you can't really say it is the "same game" twenty years ago, or more. This is what fuels fan disagreements. Makes it fun, as we can all become Experts.

    Replies: @Up2Drew

    Players from Latin America are proliferate because buscones are giving them horse chemical PEDs from the time they’re ten years old.

  162. @Ganderson
    @kaganovitch

    Part of it is the old peak vs career value. As I said in another thread, Koufax at his peak was a better pitcher than Sutton, but Sutton had a better career.

    All of the players under discussion were very good players- even the hall of famers that don’t belong were good to very good players.

    You may be right about M and M vs Aaron, but he was still IMHO one of the top 10 players of all time.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @kaganovitch

    You may be right about M and M vs Aaron, but he was still IMHO one of the top 10 players of all time.

    Indeed.

  163. @Steve Sailer
    @R.G. Camara

    DiMaggio's statistics on the road were outstanding. At home, the very deep power alley in Yankee Stadium robbed him of more than a few homers.

    Replies: @kaganovitch, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    DiMaggio’s statistics on the road were outstanding. At home, the very deep power alley in Yankee Stadium robbed him of more than a few homers.

    A .611 lifetime slugging percentage on the road. Outstanding indeed.

    • Replies: @ganderson
    @kaganovitch

    440 to left center!

  164. @kaganovitch
    @Steve Sailer

    DiMaggio’s statistics on the road were outstanding. At home, the very deep power alley in Yankee Stadium robbed him of more than a few homers.

    A .611 lifetime slugging percentage on the road. Outstanding indeed.

    Replies: @ganderson

    440 to left center!

  165. Ole Hank didn’t do it his way.

    86 and doin’ fine.

    Who whispered into Hank’s ear?

    5 dancing shlomos

  166. @Anon
    @Morton's toes

    Aaron was innoculated with the Moderna vaccine on January 5th, and here he is dead 16 days later. Not very encouraging.

    Replies: @The Alarmist, @Corvinus

    “Aaron was innoculated with the Moderna vaccine on January 5th, and here he is dead 16 days later. Not very encouraging.”

    Only if outliers become the norm. Was the vaccine a primary factor in his death? How do you know?

  167. Hard to guess Mantle’s loss.

    Clipper Joe caused Mantle’s knee/hip injury that was a career plague.

    Mel Allen recommended a quack dr who negatively impacted the later years.

    Mantle, potentially the greatest of all.

    • Agree: Trinity
    • Replies: @Ganderson
    @anon

    Bill James in one of his books (Historical Abstract?) did a Mantle-Mays comparison, his conclusion was that Mantle wins on peak value, Mays on career value. Seems about right to me.

  168. @kaganovitch
    @Abolish_public_education

    As an educated guess, high altitude should be bad news for breaking balls, but good news for fastballs.

    It seems to be true of breaking balls, not so true of fastballs. No good pitcher ever wants to sign with the Colorado Rockies because of the high altitude effect on pitching.

    Here are a couple of articles on the general problem of pitching at Coors Field.

    http://baseball.physics.illinois.edu/Denver.html

    https://www.beyondtheboxscore.com/2019/7/17/20696070/juiced-baseball-colorado-rockies-pitchers-problem-steve-foster-freeland-marquez-gray-shaw-mcgee

    Replies: @Abolish_public_education

    I know that I have previously read some of that guy’s articles. Excellent material.

    My “educated guess” was consistent with the author’s (theoretical) findings.

    Regarding the fastball at Coors, reduced air density at altitude will reduce drag, so that the ball will lose less velocity on its way to the plate (i.e. good news for fastballs).

    From what I’ve read around here recently, another key to a good fastball is movement. At Coors, such movement should lessen (i.e. bad news).

    [MORE]

    My undergrad, Intro Physics assigned text (for life sci majors) might have been the only one of its kind, back then in ancient times (til today?), which had a (short) section on the Magnus force.

    As I was then a BB fan, I took particular interest in that section. The otherwise awful book — then in its 3rd edition — was authored by the profster who taught the course every year. Hmm.

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    @Abolish_public_education

    From what I’ve read around here recently, another key to a good fastball is movement. At Coors, such movement should lessen (i.e. bad news).

    Right, movement is very important to fastball effectiveness. MLB hitters can usually handle pure velocity. Also without swing and miss effect of movement, exit velocity moves higher as pitch comes in faster and departs still faster in high altitude.

  169. @The Last Real Calvinist
    @anonymous as usual


    AN AVERAGE HIGH SCHOOL PITCHER WOULD STRIKE OUT AN AVERAGE PRO PLAYER THREE OUT OF 20 TIMES.

     

    LOL. I was an average high school pitcher, and I can assure you even a Mendoza-line MLB hitter would not have had the slightest difficulty absolutely pulverizing any of my offerings on my very best day.

    The gap between 'average' high school athletes and pros is vast.

    Replies: @Ganderson, @Marty, @Abolish_public_education

    Most high school stars don’t survive ‘A’ ball.

    • Agree: Trinity
  170. @anonymous as usual
    @Steve Sailer

    And hundreds of thousands of guys who barely made their high school teams killed hundreds of thousands of Japs and Krauts.

    NOBODY FUCKING CARES IF SOME LITTLE GUY WAS GOOD AT A KID'S GAME.

    AND TELL ME WHAT HANK AARON EVER DID OUTSIDE OF BEING A BASEBALL PLAYER?

    I remember him as an angry black man who voted for all the crooked politicians who put Planned Parenthood clinics in black neighborhoods to keep the black population down.

    Sure I probably only would have stuck him out one out of ten at-bats, but so what, at least I was not a black guy who was too cowardly to call out Planned Parenthood for targeting the young black women in my neighborhood.

    Replies: @anonymous as usual, @anon

    NOBODY FUCKING CARES IF SOME LITTLE GUY WAS GOOD AT A KID’S GAME.

    sadly, they do

    you should be able to tell by the number of replies to this thread

  171. Too bad Aaron had to mouth off about his dislike for President Trump. Professional athletes should keep quiet about their political opinions—automatically, they disappoint 1/2 their admirers—me for example.

    ____

    https://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/mlb/2018/06/23/hank-aaron-mlb-trump-white-house-nobody-want-see/728051002/

  172. @R.G. Camara
    @Nicholas Stix

    Because he innovated it. Ruth "hacked" a new system.

    Prior to 1900-1910, baseball was played in open fields with no fences. Spectators sometimes roamed behind outfielders, and occasionally there was a rope or chalk line that they were supposed to stay behind, but if a ball got past an outfielder or even past the line, it was still in play. Outfielders ran to get the ball (sometimes fighting with fans for it), so hitters still had to race around the bases as fast as they could in the event they still got thrown out. There was no "home run trot".

    Then beginning in the 1900s, owners realized they could get a lot more profits if they fenced in parks and built stadium seating. So they did so. But land in cities being expensive, these parks often had snugger dimensions than the old open fields. And in the early 1910s, a slew of smaller parks got built: Fenway, Old Tiger Stadium, Wrigley date from this era. These parks forced baseball to make a rule that, if a ball went over the new fences, it became an automatic "home run", because otherwise outfielders would have had to comically climb the fence and try to get the balls.

    No one really thought about this rule change much, and the players kept playing the old way they had grown up playing, as if they were open fields. Until Ruth.

    Ruth was smart enough to realize this "automatic home run" new rule could potentially change the game and be more profitable to a hitter, if only he could unlearn his old deadball hitting ways and figure out how to launch balls upwards with enough momentum. And he did figure it out---and the rest is history,

    So Ruth was responding to a recent changes---the automatic home run in all the new, ubiquitous snug parks. No one was building new MLB parks without fences, ergo, every park was a automatic home run park.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Mike Tre, @ScarletNumber

    This is partly BS, or wishful thinking.

    FACT: From its inception in 1923, until the early/mid ’30’s, Yankee Stadium’s power alleys were 449 to left center, and about 444 to right center.

    As Ruth was a power hitter, most of his HR’s went to the power alleys and not right at the foul poles. This is a misnomer that most HR sluggers tend to hit their HR’s at the foul poles. They dont, they tend to hit the majority (ca. 90%) of their HR’s at the power alleys.

    Yankee Stadium was no exception but the rule for the concrete and steel ballparks of the 1910’s and 1920’s, the power alley’s were at least 100FT further back than they are today, talking about 440 FT to the power alleys. Some CF’s like the Polo Grounds, were 482 FT to straightaway center. Good luck hitting a ball over the fence from 482 FT away. Most ballparks weren’t this extreme in their power alleys, but they were still further back than what they are today. Something to keep in mind when reading about players hitting 30, 40, etc HRs per yr back in the day, especially with farther back power alleys, where the majority of HR’s tend to land.

    As Yankee Stadium was for most of its history a pitcher’s park, Babe Ruth and many NY players like him, tended to hit the majority of his HR’s on the road.

    And still he did it better than almost any MLB player of the twentieth century.

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    As Yankee Stadium was for most of its history a pitcher’s park, Babe Ruth and many NY players like him, tended to hit the majority of his HR’s on the road.

    The Babe hit almost identical number of HRs at home and on the road; 347 at home and 367 on the road. In fact he had slightly better homerun numbers at home with a HR every 11.63 AB vs. every 11.89 ABs on the road(he had 328 more road than home ABs for his career .)

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

  173. @Steve Sailer
    @R.G. Camara

    DiMaggio's statistics on the road were outstanding. At home, the very deep power alley in Yankee Stadium robbed him of more than a few homers.

    Replies: @kaganovitch, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    The same power alleys also robbed Ruth, Gehrig, and Mantle as well. Yankee Stadium was a pitcher’s park, as many ballparks of the 1920’s and 1930’s tended to be. And still total HR output increased ten fold over the dead ball era.

  174. @R.G. Camara
    @kaganovitch

    Likely.

    Jeter will always be a bigger legend in NYC than he should be, and a smaller legend outside NYC than he should be.

    But I don't feel too bad for the mulatto pretty boy. Banged a ton of high-end ass as the leader and biggest star of the WS champs in the biggest city in the U.S.

    All while being able to quietly be ignored when he needed to as some other NYC celebrity was having a moment. Being a star in NYC has its advantages like that, which is why so many celebs keep homes there---its nice to be simultaneously famous and not famous at the same time. Schrodinger's Cat of celebrity.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    With the advent of Social Media, total anonymity, even in NY, is getting harder and harder. Jeter benefitted by beginning his career, actually the first half of his career, was played before the advent of Social Media, and smart phones. Nowadays a famous athlete in NY at a club or somewhere else can be snapped by a phone camera, and its on social media in minutes, and possibly has over a million clicks within a few hrs. These are things that Jeter didn’t have to worry about.

  175. @The Last Real Calvinist
    @anonymous as usual


    AN AVERAGE HIGH SCHOOL PITCHER WOULD STRIKE OUT AN AVERAGE PRO PLAYER THREE OUT OF 20 TIMES.

     

    LOL. I was an average high school pitcher, and I can assure you even a Mendoza-line MLB hitter would not have had the slightest difficulty absolutely pulverizing any of my offerings on my very best day.

    The gap between 'average' high school athletes and pros is vast.

    Replies: @Ganderson, @Marty, @Abolish_public_education

    The gap between pros and world class pros is vast.

  176. @Anon
    @Trinity


    Still it suffers from being a Southern city because of a history of Northeastern/Boston-Washington corridor and West Coast bias. Hell even Philadelphia, Baltimore and D.C. suffer from New York bias and to a lesser degree from stuffy Boston fans and newspapers. Atlanta is on the same level as Washington, Philly, Boston, Houston, Dallas, and Miami now, but you would never know it listening to the media, hell it could be a level above Boston and Philly. It has hosted the Olympics, has one of the world’s largest and busiest airports, a skyline that is every bit as impressive if not more so than Dallas, Miami,Philly, and definitely more impressive than Boston and Atlanta has 16 companies based here in Fortune 500. Not exactly the overgrown cow town it was when Aaron played here.
     
    LOL. Wut??

    Boston/Cambridge is where the intelligentsia come from and/or go to school and/or spend their career in teaching or developing revolutionary breakthroughs in STEM. This won’t ever change. You can be sure you’re not a MOTU (master of the universe) if you haven’t spent at least part of your life in the Boston area.

    There are no doubt more Nobel Laureates in the Boston area than any other city/region in the world. Over 97 of Nobel Laureates are affiliated with MIT (62 of them in science). There are 161 Nobel Laureates affiliated with Harvard (113 in science). Other Boston area schools like Tufts and Boston University each have 3 Nobel Laureates in science affiliated with them.

    Replies: @Trinity, @bomag

    Disagree with your take.

    Atlanta has always had more of a big city vibe: commerce center of the South.

    Boston is far in the shadow of NY as a trading center. Boston has more of a small town, provincial vibe. Its colleges/universities are numerous, but seen as monasteries with strange people in brown robes taking care of dusty books.

  177. @R.G. Camara
    Big City media bias and East Coast media bias. Reminds me of what happened to Robin Yount. Yount played on the obscure Brewers his entire career, and despite winning multiple MVP awards and being an outstanding athlete for decades (went from Gold Glove-caliber shortstop to Gold Glove-caliber centerfielder), could walk into any room on the East Coast and not be recognized. If Yount had played in a big media market, especially on the East Coast, he'd be celebrated as one of the greatest athletes of the 20th Century.

    Anyway, Bonds had to cheat heavily to beat Aaron, much like Biden did with Trump. That's all you need to know about how great Aaron's numbers were. As Reggie Jackson said, if you tried to beat Aaron's homerun record by hitting 35 year for 20 years, you'd still be 55 short. Aaron is still the all-time homerun king.

    Also, funny story about Aaron: he grew up hitting "cross-handed". He would bat right-handed as a kid, but his left hand would be on top of his right hand when he swung, instead of the natural other way around (try it on yourself to see how awkward it is). Someone got in his ear as a teen/early 20s and got him to switch his hands up so his right hand was on top of his left, but still kept him batting right handed.

    In his autobio I read as a kid, Aaron wondered why no one ever just turned him around and made him bat left-handed, which would have gotten rid of his cross-handedness and also given him the left-handed batter's advantage.

    But I think Aaron did ok, doncha think? He's one of those top 6 -7outfielders kids argue about putting on the all-time team they have in their minds (Cobb, Ruth, Williams, Musial, Mays, Aaron + whatever outfielder the kid particularly idolizes). RIP.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Trinity, @Ed Case, @Desiderius, @AceDeuce, @E. Rekshun, @kaganovitch, @Truth

    Anyway, Bonds had to cheat heavily to beat Aaron, much like Biden did with Trump.

    “Cheating” is relative. Did Ruth “cheat” by not having to compete against Josh Gibson (whom many people in the era said was better)? Did he cheat by denying his (alleged) black heritage? Was Mickey Mantle an early juicer (which is a theory)? Would Barry have broken the HR record without the juice? Highly doubtful, but he was the best player in the game when everyone was clean, and he would have put a few pounds on naturally and not suffered so many injuries, so who knows?

  178. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Hank Aaron was the most consistently reliable hitter of the 20th century. Like his counterpart Pete Rose, Aaron also benefitted by never having had a major injury sideline him for sizable amount of time. From 1954 to 1974, he never hit fewer than 25 HR's nor more than 47 in a single season. It should be noted that Fulton County Stadium in MIL was not as much a pitcher's park compared to Dodger Stadium. After all, Aaron's teammate HOF 3B Eddie Matthews hit 512 HR's during his career playing most of it in MIL. If anything HOF SF CF Willie Mays, who played the majority of his career in Candlestick park, was a much tougher ballpark to hit HR's due to the unsual wind currents (the fact that Candlestick Park was literally built on a wind tunnel, thus causing havoc on hit balls in general).

    After about 1961 or so, MIL/ATL wasn't particularly dominant a club (aside from winning the Western division in 1969) from a NL Pennant standpoint, which might account for why Aaron didn't quite get the recognition he deserved for most of his career.

    Willie Mays was always considered the one player who would eventually break Babe Ruth's HR record, but playing CF in Candlestick park, a much larger range of OF to cover compared to Aaron (RF), plus some late career injuries, took their toll on the Say Hey Kid, and he came up short of the record.

    Even now, one could make a case that overall as a 5 tool player, Willie Mays was the far superior player than Aaron. Because he began and ended his career in NY, Mays was always the favored one of the NY sportswriters and would've probably had greater support behind him and less controversy if he had broken Ruth's record. Willie was also the first African-American, (unlike Jackie Robinson) who clearly wasn't a token, a symbol of breaking the color line. Willie Mays was the first five tool African-American MLBer who clearly was the most dominant CF and hitter for the bulk of his career, mainly because for most of his two decades plus career, Willie Mays was indeed the greatest player in MLB, which was something seldom ever accorded to Aaron until the tail end of his career. During the 50's and 60's, Aaron's name doesn't figure prominently as the most dominant player in MLB, especially when compared to Mays. He simply outlasted Mays (and was fortunate not to have had a single major injury that caused him to miss significant amount of games).

    When asked "Who's the greatest player in MLB?" In his usual less than modest but factual answer, Willie replied "Me." (Mays' estimation for 2nd greatest all round player in MLB was PIT Roberto Clemente.)

    Replies: @Truth, @ScarletNumber

    Willie was also the first African-American, (unlike Jackie Robinson) who clearly wasn’t a token, a symbol of breaking the color line.

    Tokens don’t win MVPs.

    He simply outlasted Mays (and was fortunate not to have had a single major injury that caused him to miss significant amount of games).

    “In sports, the best ability is availability. you can’t make plays from the trainer’s table.
    -Tony Dungy

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Truth

    Jackie Robinson was great. He started in the majors at age 28 and helped the Dodgers get to 6 World Series in his 10 years in the big leagues.

    Robinson was an incredible all-around athlete (the favorite to win the long jump gold in the 1940 Olympics) who never really concentrated on baseball until he was about 26. By age 30, he was the NL MVP.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Truth

  179. @R.G. Camara
    @Nicholas Stix

    Because he innovated it. Ruth "hacked" a new system.

    Prior to 1900-1910, baseball was played in open fields with no fences. Spectators sometimes roamed behind outfielders, and occasionally there was a rope or chalk line that they were supposed to stay behind, but if a ball got past an outfielder or even past the line, it was still in play. Outfielders ran to get the ball (sometimes fighting with fans for it), so hitters still had to race around the bases as fast as they could in the event they still got thrown out. There was no "home run trot".

    Then beginning in the 1900s, owners realized they could get a lot more profits if they fenced in parks and built stadium seating. So they did so. But land in cities being expensive, these parks often had snugger dimensions than the old open fields. And in the early 1910s, a slew of smaller parks got built: Fenway, Old Tiger Stadium, Wrigley date from this era. These parks forced baseball to make a rule that, if a ball went over the new fences, it became an automatic "home run", because otherwise outfielders would have had to comically climb the fence and try to get the balls.

    No one really thought about this rule change much, and the players kept playing the old way they had grown up playing, as if they were open fields. Until Ruth.

    Ruth was smart enough to realize this "automatic home run" new rule could potentially change the game and be more profitable to a hitter, if only he could unlearn his old deadball hitting ways and figure out how to launch balls upwards with enough momentum. And he did figure it out---and the rest is history,

    So Ruth was responding to a recent changes---the automatic home run in all the new, ubiquitous snug parks. No one was building new MLB parks without fences, ergo, every park was a automatic home run park.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Mike Tre, @ScarletNumber

    Any idea what Ruth’s fly out/pop out rate was? Young players are taught to “throw” their hands straight to the point of contact, and to not “drop them.” Dropping the hands creates that uppercut motion that results in making contact too low on the ball, leading to pop ups. However Ruth obviously had the strength to compensate for dropping his hands under the ball, by driving the ball sufficiently out as well as up.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Mike Tre

    Ruth had the egotism to realize that what was the proper swing for most players was not optimal for him. Ty Cobb pointed out that baseball's conservative establishment let him get away with retraining his swing because he was a pitcher so nobody cared about him fooling around in batting practice with a silly new swing. If he'd been a position player, they would have made him knock it off and go back to swinging level like everybody else did.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

  180. @Nicholas Stix
    @Anonymous

    “rest in power”: From one black supremacist moron to another.

    “Hank Aaron Remains Baseball’s Home Run King, but He was also a black supremacist Moron”
    https://nicholasstixuncensored.blogspot.com/2021/01/hank-aaron-remains-baseballs-home-run.html

    Replies: @Colin Wright, @Truth

    That article reads like it was written by a 9th grader in Fargo who was mad at his daddy.

  181. @R.G. Camara
    @Steve Sailer

    I'd bet money Aaron never touched PEDs.

    He was so cold when Bonds broke his record--when any athlete could see Bonds was juicing --that it seems almost dead certain Aaron never used and was miffed Bonds would bust his record with the cheat. But Aaron never uttered a word about it---because he kept the code of not ratting out another, especially in such a situation, where he couldn't prove it and also it would've sounded like sour grapes. Willie Mays (Bonds' godfather) was much more celebratory at the time. Aaron always seemed old school like that, especially with how dang hard Aaron had to work to break Ruth's record in the obscurity of playing for the Braves of that time.

    I think if a player had honestly broken Aaron's record without obvious steroid use, Aaron would've acted far more warmly.

    N.B. Nolan Ryan personally thanked Tommy House (his old buddy/trainer) in his HOF speech. Ryan definitely juiced. I'd bet money on that, too.

    Replies: @David In TN

    I recall watching the 1958 World Series on TV, age 8. The announcers called him “Hammerin Hank Aaron.” His best years were from 1955-63. He averaged well over .300 with HR totals of 27, 26, 44, 30, 39, 40, 34, 45, 44. Aaron wasn’t juicing then.

    Anyone who was a casual baseball fan knew Hank Aaron was the best pure hitter in baseball during that time.

    Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle were considered greater players. Mays, due to his all around skill. Mantle, due to being in the Series almost every year, hitting longer home runs than anybody from both sides of the plate. Also, Mantle and Mays numbers were close to Aaron’s. Mays and Mantle hit over 50 home runs in a season twice each. Aaron never did.

    • Replies: @R.G. Camara
    @David In TN

    Mantle held the advantages of, as a switch-hitter, being able to bat left-handed in Yankee stadium and having a murderer's row hitting around him for most of his career, so pitchers couldn't just pitch around him. During the 1961 season when Maris broke Ruth's record, Mantle and Maris batted #3 and #4 (and many Yankee fans were booing Maris cheering for Mantle to break the record instead).

    Replies: @David In TN

  182. @R.G. Camara
    @AceDeuce

    Although I agree Ruth > Aaron, some points to consider:

    1. WS appearances means nothing in baseball as to an individual's abilities. A person could play on lousy teams for 20 years and still be HOF worthy.

    2. During Ruth's time, balls that bounced in one bounce over the fence counted as homeruns. Today, by Aaron's time, that's a ground-rule double.

    3. Ruth had a short right-field porch in the Bronx and Lou Gehrig/other great Yankee sluggers hitting behind him, giving him a lot better chance at hitting home runs. Aaron had Eddie Matthews and a big stadium in Milwaukee during his prime years.

    4. Ruth was the innovator of the home run hitter, and it took several years for the dead ball pitchers to be able to adjust to a strategy of avoiding homeruns.

    5. Ruth's home runs were magnified by the rabbit ball introduced specifically to increase home runs. By Aaron's time, the rabbit ball was gone.

    Replies: @I, Libertine, @Nicholas Stix, @AceDeuce

    You make some points, but I’m not on board.

    I don’t know what you’re talkiing about with this “rabbit ball” that supposedly came and went. There was the deadball era and then there wasn’t.

    I know about the various rule changes– I’d have to refresh my memory on the specifics. I know there were other changes that hurt Ruth’s HR total–something about fair balls going foul after going over the fence-that experts says cost Ruth several HRs.

    Pitchers “adjust” to HR hitters largely the same way they adjust to hitters.

    As far as WS appearances/wins–well, that’s the name of the game, isn’t it? And at the heart of my mention of it wasn’t just appearing/winning the WS, it was one’s individual performance in the WS–Aaron, in the two series that he was in, did very well, with a .364 average.

    Ruth, in ten WS, batted .326–if you take away his 3 Boston WS where he pitched, and just focus on his 7 Yankees WS-he batted .351, even with his poor showing while injured/sick in 1922. Take that appearance away, and in the 6 Yankees WS where Ruth was healthy, he averaged .389. Cherry picking his two best WS in 1927 and 1928, he hit .400 and .625 for a two year average of .512 in 31 at bats–two more than Aaron’s total WS at bats–and the Yankees won both series, unlike Aaron’s efforts.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @AceDeuce

    History of the baseball:

    1901-1910: truly a Dead Ball era
    1911: Modern rubber core ball introduced, hitting stats jump
    ~1913: pitchers respond by spitting on the ball, balls get muddy, hard to see, hitting recedes
    1918: To support the War Effort, umpires keep dirty balls in play longer, batting drops, pitcher Ruth hits 11 homers in 95 games
    1919: Return of pre-WWI quality baseballs: Ruth hits record 29 homers
    1920: Spitball banned except for 17 pitchers grandfathered in, Ruth hits 54 homers
    August 1920: Ray Chapman killed by a pitch he didn't; umpires instructed to put more new balls into play
    1921: Ruth hits 59 homers
    ~1925: a new rabbit ball is introduced, but the history is murky
    1927 Ruth hits 60 homers
    1930: Batting averages peak
    Post-1930: the rabbit ball is tamed, perhaps more in the National than the American league; batting drops in NL

    A shortlived change to make the ball go further appears to have been tried in 1987.
    The ball appears to have been made more streamlined in mid-2015, introducing the new home run era.

    Ruth's records are mostly the result of his own skills, innovations, and his positive impact on the game. E.g., the AL could afford to use more clean new baseballs after Roy Chapman's death in August 1920 because Ruth was drawing unprecedented crowds around the league.

    Aaron, by the way, spent 1963-1968 in the heart of his career playing under the misguided rules introduced in 1963 to cut down on hitting that led to the Pitcher Era that culminated in 1968. When the rules became more sensible in 1969, he had monster seasons in 1969, 1971, and 1973. Aaron probably would have hit 800 homers without the stupid huge strike zone of 1963-1968.

    Replies: @AceDeuce, @David In TN

    , @R.G. Camara
    @AceDeuce


    Pitchers “adjust” to HR hitters largely the same way they adjust to hitters.

     

    They do that now, thanks to nearly a century of such adjustments. But 100 years ago, they had no concept of how to adjust from every other player slashing singles to Ruth just sitting back and launching balls over the new fences. For crying out loud, Ty Cobb used to bat with his hands split from one another---he was halfway between bunting and swinging away with each at bat. A homerun swing was literally not in the ballpark of ideas for anyone before Ruth.

    Again, imagine Tom Brady going back to 1900s football and hitting receivers 20-30 yards down field while everyone other quarterback was acting like an imitation of rugby in the mud and you know the defense would be bamboozled by both what was going on and the level it was going on at.


    As far as WS appearances/wins–well, that’s the name of the game, isn’t it? And at the heart of my mention of it wasn’t just appearing/winning the WS, it was one’s individual performance in the WS–Aaron, in the two series that he was in, did very well, with a .364 average.
     
    You need enough at bats to get a good sense, and that requires a great team around you to get you there consistently. An individual hitter alone has near-zero power in moving his team up the standings, unlike say, a basketball or hockey star, whose talent can often take a basement dweller to playoff contender. It's the nature of the games.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @anonymous as usual, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

  183. @Buffalo Joe
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Yoji, lots of politics I think in HOF membership. Who can explain to me why Marv Levy is in the NFL HOF ? Jim Kelly is a puzzlement too. Nice comment.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Truth

    I was on a boxing board once where somebody posed the question; “why is Pipino Cuevas in the IBHOF”. And someone else came up with an incredibly great answer, he said; “because the games are played for the benefit of the fans, and it is called “The Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Good.”

    Pipino Cuevas had a 3 year run that unparalleled in his era, he packed arenas in Southern California, bought a generation of rabid Mexican-American fans to the game, had 11 KO’s in a row in 11 title defenses (if I remember right), broke bones and eye sockets and created excitement to a level few have for his short prime. Even his two most memorable losses, to two of the greatest fighters of all time will have people talking forever.

    Arturo Gatti is another one; not a great fighter by any means, but beloved by fans of the sport, and a combatant in some of the most exciting boxing matches of all time.

    Levy and Kelly were loved, and have a legacy, as America’s most lovable “winning-losers” of their era. They are famous.

    Earl Monroe, if I remember correctly made ONE all-NBA team, and averaged 18 – points, but he was emblematic of a man who sacrificed his fame and personal stats to make a winning, multiracial, New York team.

    Anybody who watched Dave Parker in his time would tell you that he was better than Jim Rice, and he won two WS, but the most “famous guy on each team was Stargell, and Rickey Henderson. Rice was more “famous” as part of the longest running outfield in history (I believe) playing for ONE classic team for many years, and having the highest peak of anyone on that team.

    Do we really need both Rollie Fingers and Bruce Sutter in the Hall of fame? Well, Rollie had the moustache and the quirks, and Bruce was a Cub.

    • Replies: @Ron Mexico
    @Truth

    "Do we really need both Rollie Fingers and Bruce Sutter in the Hall of fame?" or Lee Smith?

  184. @Trinity
    @R.G. Camara

    Mickey Mantle couldn't stand DiMaggio and from what I heard a lot of other Yankees couldn't as well. My guess is the public image of Joe DiMaggio was a farce and he was a world class asshole. Ted Williams was an ass to, but I agree with Teddy Ballgame about one thing, Boston sucks. Williams hated Boston so he can't be all bad. hehe.

    Replies: @R.G. Camara

    Williams didn’t hate Boston, he hated Boston sportswriters. He would notoriously glare at the pressbox after hitting a homerun and spit at it as he trotted the bases. The only time he didn’t do it was at his final homerun (which occurred at his final at bat).

    Williams was deep red John Wayne type guy, and hated the lefty sportswriters gossip hounds with a passion.

  185. @Steve Sailer
    @Magic Dirt Resident

    My vague impression is that Aaron was more of a slashing extra-base line-drive hitter like Stan Musial than a home run slugger like Harmon Killebrew until late in career when he started to concentrate on lofting cheap homeruns.

    Replies: @David In TN

    As I’ve indicated, I observed Aaron on TV games from 1958 on. He was (especially as a Milwaukee Brave) a line-drive hitter with plenty of extra base hits, and lot of his line drives went high enough to go in the seats.

    When he went to Atlanta in 1966, Aaron did concentrate more on hitting home runs.

  186. @David In TN
    @R.G. Camara

    I recall watching the 1958 World Series on TV, age 8. The announcers called him "Hammerin Hank Aaron." His best years were from 1955-63. He averaged well over .300 with HR totals of 27, 26, 44, 30, 39, 40, 34, 45, 44. Aaron wasn't juicing then.

    Anyone who was a casual baseball fan knew Hank Aaron was the best pure hitter in baseball during that time.

    Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle were considered greater players. Mays, due to his all around skill. Mantle, due to being in the Series almost every year, hitting longer home runs than anybody from both sides of the plate. Also, Mantle and Mays numbers were close to Aaron's. Mays and Mantle hit over 50 home runs in a season twice each. Aaron never did.

    Replies: @R.G. Camara

    Mantle held the advantages of, as a switch-hitter, being able to bat left-handed in Yankee stadium and having a murderer’s row hitting around him for most of his career, so pitchers couldn’t just pitch around him. During the 1961 season when Maris broke Ruth’s record, Mantle and Maris batted #3 and #4 (and many Yankee fans were booing Maris cheering for Mantle to break the record instead).

    • Replies: @David In TN
    @R.G. Camara

    Maris batted #3 and Mantle batted #4.

  187. @Trinity
    Ron Santo played at a time when hitting 30 home runs was a big deal and hitting 40 home runs was a rare feat reserved for people like Aaron, McCovey, Killebrew or Frank Robinson, and even these guys didn't hit over 40 home runs on the regular. Bill Melton led the American League in home runs in 1971 with 33 home runs. Santo also won 5 gold gloves in a row at one of the most difficult positions in baseball. Matter of fact Santo had stats that are very comparable to Cal Ripken when you take into account that Ripken played 21 seasons to Ron's 14 years. Ron probably had a tad more power even. Ron Santo does indeed belong in the HOF, not a superstar but his career is worthy of a plaque at Cooperstown. The incomparable Brooks Robinson made it with his glove because his offensive stats are not outstanding in any shape or form, respectable for such a fine 3rd baseman, but not in the same league with Santo with the bat.

    Replies: @flyingtiger

    Santo may have been the first major league athlete who had diabetes. He kept a secret when he was playing.

  188. @Nicholas Stix
    @R.G. Camara

    Well, something had to give. Somebody had to play third, and someone had to play short. The few times I saw the Yankees play (against the Mets?) when Jeter and Rodriguez were together, Rodriguez was putting on a clinic at third. It was some of the best defensive play I'd ever seen at the hot corner, since Brooks Robby retired.

    I also suspect that the Yankees brass moved Rodriguez to third, in order to show him that this was Derek Jeter's team, not Rodriguez.' When Rodriguez signed with the team, he spouted off arrogantly in ways that suggested that he thought it would now be his team.

    Replies: @R.G. Camara

    When Rodriguez signed with the team, he spouted off arrogantly in ways that suggested that he thought it would now be his team.

    A-Roids modeled his public persona on Cal Ripken but forgot that Ripken stayed with his small-market team his entire career (the Orioles), and thus was able to control the press and management quite well. A-Roids, meanwhile, jumped ship from Seattle (where he could’ve pulled a Ripken) and ran to Texas for the $$$, and then engineered a trade to the Yankees when his schtick didn’t work in Texas and the Yankees looked like the dominant power for the next few years.

    A-Roids’s career is like Brett Favre, in that the moment they left their original small-market team, all of their good press and press control evaporated and they were exposed.

    A-Roids, once exposed, came off as very needy of fame, to the point of being a copycat. When George Clooney started dating ex-WWE diva Stacey Keibler, A-Roids immediately (and very publicly) hooked up with ex-WWE diva Torrie Wilson. I remember reading about it and laughing that A-Roids was blatantly copying Clooney to get more press and get people to compare them.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @R.G. Camara

    The funny thing about Alex Rodriguez is that deep down, he's authentically a baseball fanatic who pretends to be a celebrity. For example, he dated the fellow biochemistry enthusiast, the Wojcicki Sister who founded 23andMe after she divorced one of the Google Guys. But they broke and the Wojcicki who runs Youtube dished about what a terrible boyfriend Rodriguez was: he watched 11 hours of baseball games per day, which is how he made himself into a smart baseball analyst on TV despite his unappealing personality.

    Replies: @kaganovitch, @R.G. Camara

  189. @anonymous as usual
    @Steve Sailer

    I agree 100 percent.

    Fuck the apologies though, until Babe Ruth apologizes for what he did, and Willy Mays writes an expose on greenies.

    Replies: @Ron Mexico

    The Babe should apologize for alcoholism? Gluttony?

    • Replies: @anonymous as usual
    @Ron Mexico

    Sorry to clue you in on this, but he used to build up his T levels, according to some, by having sex with very young prostitutes the night before an afternoon game. My hopeful guess is they were at least 17, which would make him a non-criminal in today's Europe, but I also guess that the more negative rumors might be true.

    I would love for the rumors not to be true, but I mean look at the guy. Of course there is a good chance they are true.

    Replies: @R.G. Camara, @Ron Mexico

  190. @HA
    @Desiderius

    "You’re missing all kinds of priors to make sense of anyone’s behavior here, Trump on down."

    That never stopped the anti-vaxxers or other conspiracy theorists -- when something like this happens, the vaccine shot (or Jewish last name or whatever else they're going on about) is all the dot-connecting that anyone should be expected to provide. My only point, noted, is that their focus is oddly selective and I, for one, want to be able to say I considered both sides of the argument.

    Replies: @Desiderius

    Steve matters more than all of them put together. Try his tack. He needs the help.

    • Replies: @HA
    @Desiderius

    "Try his tack. He needs the help."

    I'm not sure what your gripe is. I don't know exactly how many people popped onto this thread to tell us darkly that Steve was a sellout for not blaming Aaron's death on the vaccine, but there were a couple, and eventually, I decided it was worth pointing out what I pointed out. If you really think Steve needs help, try answering one of those complaining about him, instead of carping at someone who did exactly that.

    Replies: @Desiderius

  191. @R.G. Camara
    @Nicholas Stix


    When Rodriguez signed with the team, he spouted off arrogantly in ways that suggested that he thought it would now be his team.
     
    A-Roids modeled his public persona on Cal Ripken but forgot that Ripken stayed with his small-market team his entire career (the Orioles), and thus was able to control the press and management quite well. A-Roids, meanwhile, jumped ship from Seattle (where he could've pulled a Ripken) and ran to Texas for the $$$, and then engineered a trade to the Yankees when his schtick didn't work in Texas and the Yankees looked like the dominant power for the next few years.

    A-Roids's career is like Brett Favre, in that the moment they left their original small-market team, all of their good press and press control evaporated and they were exposed.

    A-Roids, once exposed, came off as very needy of fame, to the point of being a copycat. When George Clooney started dating ex-WWE diva Stacey Keibler, A-Roids immediately (and very publicly) hooked up with ex-WWE diva Torrie Wilson. I remember reading about it and laughing that A-Roids was blatantly copying Clooney to get more press and get people to compare them.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    The funny thing about Alex Rodriguez is that deep down, he’s authentically a baseball fanatic who pretends to be a celebrity. For example, he dated the fellow biochemistry enthusiast, the Wojcicki Sister who founded 23andMe after she divorced one of the Google Guys. But they broke and the Wojcicki who runs Youtube dished about what a terrible boyfriend Rodriguez was: he watched 11 hours of baseball games per day, which is how he made himself into a smart baseball analyst on TV despite his unappealing personality.

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    @Steve Sailer

    But they broke and the Wojcicki who runs Youtube dished about what a terrible boyfriend Rodriguez was: he watched 11 hours of baseball games per day, which is how he made himself into a smart baseball analyst on TV despite his unappealing personality.

    Yup. A-rod would spend half the night watching West coast baseball games after playing a game on the East coast . He is a Baseball fanatic.

    , @R.G. Camara
    @Steve Sailer

    Then that's probably why he came off as phony and needy.

    To try to subsume his inner nerd/geek, he tried to be what he thought a Superstar Athlete would be ---dating famous women, dressing in the latest rags, mouthing platitudes, appearing at newsworthy events---when really he would've been happier talking for hours in a room about how to best pull off a hit and run against Randy Johnson in late-September start, or whether one should swing a 32-ounce bat versus a 31-ounce bat when facing a junkball pitcher in Miami in July.

    A-Rod always struck me as consciously trying to consciously become the "Hispanic ____" instead of just being Alex Rodriguez.

    All that is humorous in light of the rise of "nerd/geek" chic over the last twenty years. Rodriguez could've been held up as a weird"jock nerd", and gotten guest appearances on Big Bang Theory, where he and Sheldon could've gotten into heated arguments about whether Worf would've been a good first basemen or whether Sisko's fastball was any good. Alas....

    Funny, baseball nerds like Tony Gwynn and Ted Williams never wanted for attention or fame despite their hyper-focused, almost-boring interest in hitting. But A-Rod saw himself differently, to his detriment.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  192. @Abolish_public_education
    @kaganovitch

    I know that I have previously read some of that guy’s articles. Excellent material.

    My “educated guess” was consistent with the author’s (theoretical) findings.

    Regarding the fastball at Coors, reduced air density at altitude will reduce drag, so that the ball will lose less velocity on its way to the plate (i.e. good news for fastballs).

    From what I’ve read around here recently, another key to a good fastball is movement. At Coors, such movement should lessen (i.e. bad news).

    My undergrad, Intro Physics assigned text (for life sci majors) might have been the only one of its kind, back then in ancient times (til today?), which had a (short) section on the Magnus force.

    As I was then a BB fan, I took particular interest in that section. The otherwise awful book — then in its 3rd edition — was authored by the profster who taught the course every year. Hmm.

    Replies: @kaganovitch

    From what I’ve read around here recently, another key to a good fastball is movement. At Coors, such movement should lessen (i.e. bad news).

    Right, movement is very important to fastball effectiveness. MLB hitters can usually handle pure velocity. Also without swing and miss effect of movement, exit velocity moves higher as pitch comes in faster and departs still faster in high altitude.

  193. @Desiderius
    @HA

    Steve matters more than all of them put together. Try his tack. He needs the help.

    Replies: @HA

    “Try his tack. He needs the help.”

    I’m not sure what your gripe is. I don’t know exactly how many people popped onto this thread to tell us darkly that Steve was a sellout for not blaming Aaron’s death on the vaccine, but there were a couple, and eventually, I decided it was worth pointing out what I pointed out. If you really think Steve needs help, try answering one of those complaining about him, instead of carping at someone who did exactly that.

    • Replies: @Desiderius
    @HA

    The skeptics have every good reason to be skeptical. Steve’s taking a flyer on the off chance it works, which is also rational given the nearly infinite upside, especially for the things that he, and we, care about.

    Don’t waste time shitting on them and revealing your own ignorance. Better to keep people open to the idea that this thing is so crazy it just might work.

    Replies: @HA

  194. @AceDeuce
    @R.G. Camara

    You make some points, but I'm not on board.

    I don't know what you're talkiing about with this "rabbit ball" that supposedly came and went. There was the deadball era and then there wasn't.

    I know about the various rule changes-- I'd have to refresh my memory on the specifics. I know there were other changes that hurt Ruth's HR total--something about fair balls going foul after going over the fence-that experts says cost Ruth several HRs.

    Pitchers "adjust" to HR hitters largely the same way they adjust to hitters.

    As far as WS appearances/wins--well, that's the name of the game, isn't it? And at the heart of my mention of it wasn't just appearing/winning the WS, it was one's individual performance in the WS--Aaron, in the two series that he was in, did very well, with a .364 average.

    Ruth, in ten WS, batted .326--if you take away his 3 Boston WS where he pitched, and just focus on his 7 Yankees WS-he batted .351, even with his poor showing while injured/sick in 1922. Take that appearance away, and in the 6 Yankees WS where Ruth was healthy, he averaged .389. Cherry picking his two best WS in 1927 and 1928, he hit .400 and .625 for a two year average of .512 in 31 at bats--two more than Aaron's total WS at bats--and the Yankees won both series, unlike Aaron's efforts.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @R.G. Camara

    History of the baseball:

    1901-1910: truly a Dead Ball era
    1911: Modern rubber core ball introduced, hitting stats jump
    ~1913: pitchers respond by spitting on the ball, balls get muddy, hard to see, hitting recedes
    1918: To support the War Effort, umpires keep dirty balls in play longer, batting drops, pitcher Ruth hits 11 homers in 95 games
    1919: Return of pre-WWI quality baseballs: Ruth hits record 29 homers
    1920: Spitball banned except for 17 pitchers grandfathered in, Ruth hits 54 homers
    August 1920: Ray Chapman killed by a pitch he didn’t; umpires instructed to put more new balls into play
    1921: Ruth hits 59 homers
    ~1925: a new rabbit ball is introduced, but the history is murky
    1927 Ruth hits 60 homers
    1930: Batting averages peak
    Post-1930: the rabbit ball is tamed, perhaps more in the National than the American league; batting drops in NL

    A shortlived change to make the ball go further appears to have been tried in 1987.
    The ball appears to have been made more streamlined in mid-2015, introducing the new home run era.

    Ruth’s records are mostly the result of his own skills, innovations, and his positive impact on the game. E.g., the AL could afford to use more clean new baseballs after Roy Chapman’s death in August 1920 because Ruth was drawing unprecedented crowds around the league.

    Aaron, by the way, spent 1963-1968 in the heart of his career playing under the misguided rules introduced in 1963 to cut down on hitting that led to the Pitcher Era that culminated in 1968. When the rules became more sensible in 1969, he had monster seasons in 1969, 1971, and 1973. Aaron probably would have hit 800 homers without the stupid huge strike zone of 1963-1968.

    • Replies: @AceDeuce
    @Steve Sailer

    Chapman was killed because of Carl Mays' delivery as well as Mays' proclivity for brushing back hitters, and last but not least, Chapman's tendency to crowd the plate--the last thing being something that several of the players who were on the field mentioned as the main reason.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    , @David In TN
    @Steve Sailer

    The geniuses who ran baseball got the idea that there was too much hitting and scoring in 1961-62. These "purists" especially disliked Babe Ruth's record being broken by Roger Maris.

    So they enlarged the strike zone. By 1968 attendance was going down. And pro football was exploding in popularity.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Steve Sailer

  195. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @R.G. Camara

    This is partly BS, or wishful thinking.

    FACT: From its inception in 1923, until the early/mid '30's, Yankee Stadium's power alleys were 449 to left center, and about 444 to right center.

    As Ruth was a power hitter, most of his HR's went to the power alleys and not right at the foul poles. This is a misnomer that most HR sluggers tend to hit their HR's at the foul poles. They dont, they tend to hit the majority (ca. 90%) of their HR's at the power alleys.

    Yankee Stadium was no exception but the rule for the concrete and steel ballparks of the 1910's and 1920's, the power alley's were at least 100FT further back than they are today, talking about 440 FT to the power alleys. Some CF's like the Polo Grounds, were 482 FT to straightaway center. Good luck hitting a ball over the fence from 482 FT away. Most ballparks weren't this extreme in their power alleys, but they were still further back than what they are today. Something to keep in mind when reading about players hitting 30, 40, etc HRs per yr back in the day, especially with farther back power alleys, where the majority of HR's tend to land.

    As Yankee Stadium was for most of its history a pitcher's park, Babe Ruth and many NY players like him, tended to hit the majority of his HR's on the road.

    And still he did it better than almost any MLB player of the twentieth century.

    Replies: @kaganovitch

    As Yankee Stadium was for most of its history a pitcher’s park, Babe Ruth and many NY players like him, tended to hit the majority of his HR’s on the road.

    The Babe hit almost identical number of HRs at home and on the road; 347 at home and 367 on the road. In fact he had slightly better homerun numbers at home with a HR every 11.63 AB vs. every 11.89 ABs on the road(he had 328 more road than home ABs for his career .)

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @kaganovitch

    Remember, Ruth's first three yrs with NY he played in the Polo Grounds, which had slightly better power alleys (but not drastically better). It was a major deal for him to go from the Polo Grounds as his home park to Yankee Stadium.

    Replies: @kaganovitch

  196. @Mike Tre
    @R.G. Camara

    Any idea what Ruth’s fly out/pop out rate was? Young players are taught to “throw” their hands straight to the point of contact, and to not “drop them.” Dropping the hands creates that uppercut motion that results in making contact too low on the ball, leading to pop ups. However Ruth obviously had the strength to compensate for dropping his hands under the ball, by driving the ball sufficiently out as well as up.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Ruth had the egotism to realize that what was the proper swing for most players was not optimal for him. Ty Cobb pointed out that baseball’s conservative establishment let him get away with retraining his swing because he was a pitcher so nobody cared about him fooling around in batting practice with a silly new swing. If he’d been a position player, they would have made him knock it off and go back to swinging level like everybody else did.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Steve Sailer

    Babe Ruth stated that when he first came into MLB, he copied Joe Jackson's swing when hitting. he made that very, very clear. On some level, Joe Jackson was probably the prototype for what HR sluggers would become, from a swing standpoint. Over time, Ruth began to hit slightly upward, an uppercut. But his swing remained essentially a copy of Joe Jackson's.

    Also, Cobb could've been fabulating to some extent. Most teams weren't obsessed with controlling their players every single decision on the field. If they had, there wouldn't have been as many complete games, no pitch counts, 300+ IP nearly every single season, etc.

  197. @Truth
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi


    Willie was also the first African-American, (unlike Jackie Robinson) who clearly wasn’t a token, a symbol of breaking the color line.
     
    Tokens don't win MVPs.


    He simply outlasted Mays (and was fortunate not to have had a single major injury that caused him to miss significant amount of games).
     
    "In sports, the best ability is availability. you can't make plays from the trainer's table.
    -Tony Dungy

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Jackie Robinson was great. He started in the majors at age 28 and helped the Dodgers get to 6 World Series in his 10 years in the big leagues.

    Robinson was an incredible all-around athlete (the favorite to win the long jump gold in the 1940 Olympics) who never really concentrated on baseball until he was about 26. By age 30, he was the NL MVP.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Steve Sailer

    If Jackie Robinson had put up the same career numbers, but had been white, he would not be in the HOF today. No 500HRs, (not even 400 HRs) no 3,000 Hs, no 320 career BA. A very above average player, perhaps in the top 1-2% of MLB players of his generation. He is a great symbol of MLB, perhaps one of the greatest of the twentieth century. And his symbolism overshadows that he was above average as a player.

    Willie Mays was the first black player who was an all around great 5 tool player. No one of his generation, no one, was better than Willie Mays at all 5 aspects of the game. No one. And many, many sportswriters have concurred on this opinion. That's why it was such as shock that he didn't break Ruth's career HR record. He was expected to. Certainly Aaron wasn't on anyone's radar to do so.

    In other words with Willie Mays, unlike with Jackie Robinson, people saw a very great MLBer who happened to be black. Then as now, Jackie Robinson was a very great symbol and an above average player. If he was all that as an INF, he'd have played his career at SS and not 2B (but due to lack of arm power, they stuck him at 2B).

    Speaking of Olympics, perhaps the greatest all round pre 1950 athlete was Jim Thorpe, who was only mediocre at playing MLB. Olympic prowess does not automatically translate to other sports.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Truth, @Truth

    , @Truth
    @Steve Sailer

    Yes, Jackie himself said that baseball was his fourth-best sport behind football, track and field, and basketball.

  198. @Steve Sailer
    @R.G. Camara

    The funny thing about Alex Rodriguez is that deep down, he's authentically a baseball fanatic who pretends to be a celebrity. For example, he dated the fellow biochemistry enthusiast, the Wojcicki Sister who founded 23andMe after she divorced one of the Google Guys. But they broke and the Wojcicki who runs Youtube dished about what a terrible boyfriend Rodriguez was: he watched 11 hours of baseball games per day, which is how he made himself into a smart baseball analyst on TV despite his unappealing personality.

    Replies: @kaganovitch, @R.G. Camara

    But they broke and the Wojcicki who runs Youtube dished about what a terrible boyfriend Rodriguez was: he watched 11 hours of baseball games per day, which is how he made himself into a smart baseball analyst on TV despite his unappealing personality.

    Yup. A-rod would spend half the night watching West coast baseball games after playing a game on the East coast . He is a Baseball fanatic.

  199. @Steve Sailer
    @AceDeuce

    History of the baseball:

    1901-1910: truly a Dead Ball era
    1911: Modern rubber core ball introduced, hitting stats jump
    ~1913: pitchers respond by spitting on the ball, balls get muddy, hard to see, hitting recedes
    1918: To support the War Effort, umpires keep dirty balls in play longer, batting drops, pitcher Ruth hits 11 homers in 95 games
    1919: Return of pre-WWI quality baseballs: Ruth hits record 29 homers
    1920: Spitball banned except for 17 pitchers grandfathered in, Ruth hits 54 homers
    August 1920: Ray Chapman killed by a pitch he didn't; umpires instructed to put more new balls into play
    1921: Ruth hits 59 homers
    ~1925: a new rabbit ball is introduced, but the history is murky
    1927 Ruth hits 60 homers
    1930: Batting averages peak
    Post-1930: the rabbit ball is tamed, perhaps more in the National than the American league; batting drops in NL

    A shortlived change to make the ball go further appears to have been tried in 1987.
    The ball appears to have been made more streamlined in mid-2015, introducing the new home run era.

    Ruth's records are mostly the result of his own skills, innovations, and his positive impact on the game. E.g., the AL could afford to use more clean new baseballs after Roy Chapman's death in August 1920 because Ruth was drawing unprecedented crowds around the league.

    Aaron, by the way, spent 1963-1968 in the heart of his career playing under the misguided rules introduced in 1963 to cut down on hitting that led to the Pitcher Era that culminated in 1968. When the rules became more sensible in 1969, he had monster seasons in 1969, 1971, and 1973. Aaron probably would have hit 800 homers without the stupid huge strike zone of 1963-1968.

    Replies: @AceDeuce, @David In TN

    Chapman was killed because of Carl Mays’ delivery as well as Mays’ proclivity for brushing back hitters, and last but not least, Chapman’s tendency to crowd the plate–the last thing being something that several of the players who were on the field mentioned as the main reason.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @AceDeuce

    I invented a statistic: the ratio of Hit Batsmen to Wild Pitches. Carl Mays was pretty mean on this ratio: not as mean as Senator Jim Bunning, but well up there.

  200. @kaganovitch
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    As Yankee Stadium was for most of its history a pitcher’s park, Babe Ruth and many NY players like him, tended to hit the majority of his HR’s on the road.

    The Babe hit almost identical number of HRs at home and on the road; 347 at home and 367 on the road. In fact he had slightly better homerun numbers at home with a HR every 11.63 AB vs. every 11.89 ABs on the road(he had 328 more road than home ABs for his career .)

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Remember, Ruth’s first three yrs with NY he played in the Polo Grounds, which had slightly better power alleys (but not drastically better). It was a major deal for him to go from the Polo Grounds as his home park to Yankee Stadium.

    • Replies: @kaganovitch
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Remember, Ruth’s first three yrs with NY he played in the Polo Grounds, which had slightly better power alleys (but not drastically better). It was a major deal for him to go from the Polo Grounds as his home park to Yankee Stadium.

    You are absolutely right; Ruth's numbers at the Polo grounds are other-worldly. His OPS was 1.323 and his Slugging % was .826. At the P.G. he averaged a home run every 8.8 at bats. If you back out the P.G. stats though, even at Yankee stadium he averaged a home run every 10.9 at bats, substantially better than he did on the road. The overall home run per AB numbers I cited earlier are skewed by his pre-Yankee career.

  201. Ironically, I am probably one of about a thousand people – out of hundreds of millions of people in the United States – who really knows how to communicate with autistic people in a way that makes them instantly better than they were before.

    I really don’t care much about sports anymore. I am not autistic at all, to the contrary, I am a genius of communication. At least that is what my Sperger friends tell me. Well, it pays the bills.

    • Replies: @anonymous as usual
    @anonymous as usual

    That was in reply to DaninDC, gamma male commenter who tried to score on me by calling me autistic. SAD!

  202. @Steve Sailer
    @Mike Tre

    Ruth had the egotism to realize that what was the proper swing for most players was not optimal for him. Ty Cobb pointed out that baseball's conservative establishment let him get away with retraining his swing because he was a pitcher so nobody cared about him fooling around in batting practice with a silly new swing. If he'd been a position player, they would have made him knock it off and go back to swinging level like everybody else did.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Babe Ruth stated that when he first came into MLB, he copied Joe Jackson’s swing when hitting. he made that very, very clear. On some level, Joe Jackson was probably the prototype for what HR sluggers would become, from a swing standpoint. Over time, Ruth began to hit slightly upward, an uppercut. But his swing remained essentially a copy of Joe Jackson’s.

    Also, Cobb could’ve been fabulating to some extent. Most teams weren’t obsessed with controlling their players every single decision on the field. If they had, there wouldn’t have been as many complete games, no pitch counts, 300+ IP nearly every single season, etc.

  203. @Ron Mexico
    @anonymous as usual

    The Babe should apologize for alcoholism? Gluttony?

    Replies: @anonymous as usual

    Sorry to clue you in on this, but he used to build up his T levels, according to some, by having sex with very young prostitutes the night before an afternoon game. My hopeful guess is they were at least 17, which would make him a non-criminal in today’s Europe, but I also guess that the more negative rumors might be true.

    I would love for the rumors not to be true, but I mean look at the guy. Of course there is a good chance they are true.

    • Replies: @R.G. Camara
    @anonymous as usual

    My favorite off-color story about Babe Ruth is:

    He and the Yankees are all at a party late at night at a house, and it's filled with women.

    Babe gets up on the table and yells, at the top of his lungs:

    "Any girl that doesn't want to f____, get the h____ out of here!" to the cheers of his teammates.

    Babe Ruth knew how to party. And how to get consent BEFORE it was cool.

    , @Ron Mexico
    @anonymous as usual

    So he was "juicing" naturally?

  204. @HA
    @Desiderius

    "Try his tack. He needs the help."

    I'm not sure what your gripe is. I don't know exactly how many people popped onto this thread to tell us darkly that Steve was a sellout for not blaming Aaron's death on the vaccine, but there were a couple, and eventually, I decided it was worth pointing out what I pointed out. If you really think Steve needs help, try answering one of those complaining about him, instead of carping at someone who did exactly that.

    Replies: @Desiderius

    The skeptics have every good reason to be skeptical. Steve’s taking a flyer on the off chance it works, which is also rational given the nearly infinite upside, especially for the things that he, and we, care about.

    Don’t waste time shitting on them and revealing your own ignorance. Better to keep people open to the idea that this thing is so crazy it just might work.

    • Replies: @HA
    @Desiderius

    "The skeptics have every good reason to be skeptical."

    Yeah, and given their track record so far (not to mention that despite that track record they think it's Steve that needs to apologize to them), I have every reason to be skeptical of them, too.

    To the extent I'm the one in that vast tapestry of finger-pointing that you have a problem with, rest assured that your opinion has been duly noted, and will be heeded in direct proportion to how convincing and free of hypocrisy (as in, who else might the adage "Don’t waste time sh*tting on them and revealing your own ignorance" apply to in this scenario?) I found it to be.

  205. @Steve Sailer
    @Truth

    Jackie Robinson was great. He started in the majors at age 28 and helped the Dodgers get to 6 World Series in his 10 years in the big leagues.

    Robinson was an incredible all-around athlete (the favorite to win the long jump gold in the 1940 Olympics) who never really concentrated on baseball until he was about 26. By age 30, he was the NL MVP.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Truth

    If Jackie Robinson had put up the same career numbers, but had been white, he would not be in the HOF today. No 500HRs, (not even 400 HRs) no 3,000 Hs, no 320 career BA. A very above average player, perhaps in the top 1-2% of MLB players of his generation. He is a great symbol of MLB, perhaps one of the greatest of the twentieth century. And his symbolism overshadows that he was above average as a player.

    Willie Mays was the first black player who was an all around great 5 tool player. No one of his generation, no one, was better than Willie Mays at all 5 aspects of the game. No one. And many, many sportswriters have concurred on this opinion. That’s why it was such as shock that he didn’t break Ruth’s career HR record. He was expected to. Certainly Aaron wasn’t on anyone’s radar to do so.

    In other words with Willie Mays, unlike with Jackie Robinson, people saw a very great MLBer who happened to be black. Then as now, Jackie Robinson was a very great symbol and an above average player. If he was all that as an INF, he’d have played his career at SS and not 2B (but due to lack of arm power, they stuck him at 2B).

    Speaking of Olympics, perhaps the greatest all round pre 1950 athlete was Jim Thorpe, who was only mediocre at playing MLB. Olympic prowess does not automatically translate to other sports.

    • Troll: ScarletNumber
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Jackie Robinson was above average for a Hall of Fame second baseman:

    https://www.baseball-almanac.com/hof/hofst2b.shtml

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    , @Truth
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    You know very little, Old Sport. Jackie Robinson made the majors at TWENTY-EIGHT. He played 10 years and was the ROY, MVP finished in the top 7 in MVP balloting 3 other times, a lifetime .311 hitter and had only been playing in the Negro Leagues for 2 years.

    Robinson was a fairly average NEGRO LEAGUE player, who Josh Gibson thought was being signed in order to fall on his face so they wouldn't sign any other blacks. Think about that.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    , @Truth
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi


    If Jackie Robinson had put up the same career numbers, but had been white, he would not be in the HOF today. No 500HRs, (not even 400 HRs) no 3,000 Hs, no 320 career BA.
     
    Again, this is foolishness.

    There are 20 2nd basemen in the HOF, here are some of Robinson's contemporaries.

    https://www.baseball-almanac.com/hof/hofst2b.shtml

    He was a better player, than for instance Joe Gordon, Billy Herman, Red Schoendiest or Bobby Doerr who played at the same time he did.

    Replies: @Mike Tre, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

  206. @anonymous as usual
    Ironically, I am probably one of about a thousand people - out of hundreds of millions of people in the United States - who really knows how to communicate with autistic people in a way that makes them instantly better than they were before.

    I really don't care much about sports anymore. I am not autistic at all, to the contrary, I am a genius of communication. At least that is what my Sperger friends tell me. Well, it pays the bills.

    Replies: @anonymous as usual

    That was in reply to DaninDC, gamma male commenter who tried to score on me by calling me autistic. SAD!

  207. @Desiderius
    @HA

    The skeptics have every good reason to be skeptical. Steve’s taking a flyer on the off chance it works, which is also rational given the nearly infinite upside, especially for the things that he, and we, care about.

    Don’t waste time shitting on them and revealing your own ignorance. Better to keep people open to the idea that this thing is so crazy it just might work.

    Replies: @HA

    “The skeptics have every good reason to be skeptical.”

    Yeah, and given their track record so far (not to mention that despite that track record they think it’s Steve that needs to apologize to them), I have every reason to be skeptical of them, too.

    To the extent I’m the one in that vast tapestry of finger-pointing that you have a problem with, rest assured that your opinion has been duly noted, and will be heeded in direct proportion to how convincing and free of hypocrisy (as in, who else might the adage “Don’t waste time sh*tting on them and revealing your own ignorance” apply to in this scenario?) I found it to be.

  208. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Steve Sailer

    If Jackie Robinson had put up the same career numbers, but had been white, he would not be in the HOF today. No 500HRs, (not even 400 HRs) no 3,000 Hs, no 320 career BA. A very above average player, perhaps in the top 1-2% of MLB players of his generation. He is a great symbol of MLB, perhaps one of the greatest of the twentieth century. And his symbolism overshadows that he was above average as a player.

    Willie Mays was the first black player who was an all around great 5 tool player. No one of his generation, no one, was better than Willie Mays at all 5 aspects of the game. No one. And many, many sportswriters have concurred on this opinion. That's why it was such as shock that he didn't break Ruth's career HR record. He was expected to. Certainly Aaron wasn't on anyone's radar to do so.

    In other words with Willie Mays, unlike with Jackie Robinson, people saw a very great MLBer who happened to be black. Then as now, Jackie Robinson was a very great symbol and an above average player. If he was all that as an INF, he'd have played his career at SS and not 2B (but due to lack of arm power, they stuck him at 2B).

    Speaking of Olympics, perhaps the greatest all round pre 1950 athlete was Jim Thorpe, who was only mediocre at playing MLB. Olympic prowess does not automatically translate to other sports.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Truth, @Truth

    Jackie Robinson was above average for a Hall of Fame second baseman:

    https://www.baseball-almanac.com/hof/hofst2b.shtml

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Steve Sailer

    And above average is about top 1-2% of MLB players, but it is not the greatest of the great. Even today, the first thing recalled about Jackie Robinson (actually among the younger generations the only thing recalled about Robinson today) is that he broke the color line in MLB, not for anything he directly did on the field per se.

    Above average is not HOF worthy. BRK teammates Gil Hodges and Carl Furillo were every bit as good as Robinson, but they're not in the HOF. Perhaps after half a century post retirement, or the Veterans Committee will help induct them, as stats have a way of suddenly improving decades after a player's retirement.

    The more that I read of the HOF inducting people like Robinson, Santo, and Rice I really do believe that Dave Kingman should be in the HOF. He had more career HRs than any of the ones listed. Kingman has four HR's more than HOF Andre Dawson. Realistically, as it is really about politics and popularity anymore, its no longer the Hall of Greatness but the Hall of 'yeah, sure, why not that dude too?'

    A minor case could also be made for inducting Rusty Staub, though the powers that be (especially among the Woke crowd) if they latch on to his cause, don't be surprised if Staub one day is inducted into the HOF. And the last thing MLB wants to be seen is anti-politically correct, so then once again it will be about politics in the induction process yet again.

  209. @Steve Sailer
    @R.G. Camara

    The funny thing about Alex Rodriguez is that deep down, he's authentically a baseball fanatic who pretends to be a celebrity. For example, he dated the fellow biochemistry enthusiast, the Wojcicki Sister who founded 23andMe after she divorced one of the Google Guys. But they broke and the Wojcicki who runs Youtube dished about what a terrible boyfriend Rodriguez was: he watched 11 hours of baseball games per day, which is how he made himself into a smart baseball analyst on TV despite his unappealing personality.

    Replies: @kaganovitch, @R.G. Camara

    Then that’s probably why he came off as phony and needy.

    To try to subsume his inner nerd/geek, he tried to be what he thought a Superstar Athlete would be —dating famous women, dressing in the latest rags, mouthing platitudes, appearing at newsworthy events—when really he would’ve been happier talking for hours in a room about how to best pull off a hit and run against Randy Johnson in late-September start, or whether one should swing a 32-ounce bat versus a 31-ounce bat when facing a junkball pitcher in Miami in July.

    A-Rod always struck me as consciously trying to consciously become the “Hispanic ____” instead of just being Alex Rodriguez.

    All that is humorous in light of the rise of “nerd/geek” chic over the last twenty years. Rodriguez could’ve been held up as a weird”jock nerd”, and gotten guest appearances on Big Bang Theory, where he and Sheldon could’ve gotten into heated arguments about whether Worf would’ve been a good first basemen or whether Sisko’s fastball was any good. Alas….

    Funny, baseball nerds like Tony Gwynn and Ted Williams never wanted for attention or fame despite their hyper-focused, almost-boring interest in hitting. But A-Rod saw himself differently, to his detriment.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @R.G. Camara

    Thanks.

  210. @AceDeuce
    @Steve Sailer

    Chapman was killed because of Carl Mays' delivery as well as Mays' proclivity for brushing back hitters, and last but not least, Chapman's tendency to crowd the plate--the last thing being something that several of the players who were on the field mentioned as the main reason.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    I invented a statistic: the ratio of Hit Batsmen to Wild Pitches. Carl Mays was pretty mean on this ratio: not as mean as Senator Jim Bunning, but well up there.

    • Agree: AceDeuce
  211. @anonymous as usual
    @Ron Mexico

    Sorry to clue you in on this, but he used to build up his T levels, according to some, by having sex with very young prostitutes the night before an afternoon game. My hopeful guess is they were at least 17, which would make him a non-criminal in today's Europe, but I also guess that the more negative rumors might be true.

    I would love for the rumors not to be true, but I mean look at the guy. Of course there is a good chance they are true.

    Replies: @R.G. Camara, @Ron Mexico

    My favorite off-color story about Babe Ruth is:

    He and the Yankees are all at a party late at night at a house, and it’s filled with women.

    Babe gets up on the table and yells, at the top of his lungs:

    “Any girl that doesn’t want to f____, get the h____ out of here!” to the cheers of his teammates.

    Babe Ruth knew how to party. And how to get consent BEFORE it was cool.

  212. @Mike Tre
    @Steve Sailer

    How effective are amphetamines when playing baseball?

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @R.G. Camara, @R.G. Camara, @brutusale, @Swamp Fox

    Amphetamines and steroids can’t make you better at hitting an exploding slider or a barn swallow curve.

    • Replies: @Mike Tre
    @Swamp Fox

    I agree. But to hit those pitches, you first have to be in the lineup, which steroids and amphetamines are helpful with.

  213. @AceDeuce
    @R.G. Camara

    You make some points, but I'm not on board.

    I don't know what you're talkiing about with this "rabbit ball" that supposedly came and went. There was the deadball era and then there wasn't.

    I know about the various rule changes-- I'd have to refresh my memory on the specifics. I know there were other changes that hurt Ruth's HR total--something about fair balls going foul after going over the fence-that experts says cost Ruth several HRs.

    Pitchers "adjust" to HR hitters largely the same way they adjust to hitters.

    As far as WS appearances/wins--well, that's the name of the game, isn't it? And at the heart of my mention of it wasn't just appearing/winning the WS, it was one's individual performance in the WS--Aaron, in the two series that he was in, did very well, with a .364 average.

    Ruth, in ten WS, batted .326--if you take away his 3 Boston WS where he pitched, and just focus on his 7 Yankees WS-he batted .351, even with his poor showing while injured/sick in 1922. Take that appearance away, and in the 6 Yankees WS where Ruth was healthy, he averaged .389. Cherry picking his two best WS in 1927 and 1928, he hit .400 and .625 for a two year average of .512 in 31 at bats--two more than Aaron's total WS at bats--and the Yankees won both series, unlike Aaron's efforts.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @R.G. Camara

    Pitchers “adjust” to HR hitters largely the same way they adjust to hitters.

    They do that now, thanks to nearly a century of such adjustments. But 100 years ago, they had no concept of how to adjust from every other player slashing singles to Ruth just sitting back and launching balls over the new fences. For crying out loud, Ty Cobb used to bat with his hands split from one another—he was halfway between bunting and swinging away with each at bat. A homerun swing was literally not in the ballpark of ideas for anyone before Ruth.

    Again, imagine Tom Brady going back to 1900s football and hitting receivers 20-30 yards down field while everyone other quarterback was acting like an imitation of rugby in the mud and you know the defense would be bamboozled by both what was going on and the level it was going on at.

    As far as WS appearances/wins–well, that’s the name of the game, isn’t it? And at the heart of my mention of it wasn’t just appearing/winning the WS, it was one’s individual performance in the WS–Aaron, in the two series that he was in, did very well, with a .364 average.

    You need enough at bats to get a good sense, and that requires a great team around you to get you there consistently. An individual hitter alone has near-zero power in moving his team up the standings, unlike say, a basketball or hockey star, whose talent can often take a basement dweller to playoff contender. It’s the nature of the games.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @R.G. Camara

    The Aaron-Matthews-Spahn Braves should have won more than one World Series with all the talent they had. I don't know exactly what went wrong. Matthews drank, Joe Adcock got hurt a lot, but I don't know the full story.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Desiderius, @AceDeuce

    , @anonymous as usual
    @R.G. Camara

    RG Camara ----- you sound like a better informed version of Bill James, who is incredibly well informed.

    , @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @R.G. Camara

    "An individual hitter alone has near-zero power in moving his team up the standings,"

    Not so, at least in one instance. Starting with NY's acquiring of Babe Ruth, NY started to win WS. Yes, yes, they also got lots of other players from PHL and BOS, but it was Babe Ruth, the original straw that stirred the drink, that directly caused NY to become contenders. It was the only time in the twentieth century where one player was greater bigger than MLB itself. That's the other thing that Ruth is recalled for: Hitting HR's, and winning WS championships (though he only managed to help lead NY to 4 WS championships out of 7, but that was 4 more than they previously had won without him).

    In 1925, when Ruth missed most of the season due to illness, NY finished in 7th place. They wouldn't finish lower than 3rd again until 1965. So one player can definitely directly impact an entire team's standing. A healthy Babe Ruth returned in 1926, and NY won the AL Pennant. Lou Gehrig started playing full time in 1925, when NY finished 7th, so he didn't have as major a direct impact on helping NY win all by himself. But once Babe Ruth returned to the lineup in 1926, NY started to win again.

  214. @R.G. Camara
    @Steve Sailer

    Then that's probably why he came off as phony and needy.

    To try to subsume his inner nerd/geek, he tried to be what he thought a Superstar Athlete would be ---dating famous women, dressing in the latest rags, mouthing platitudes, appearing at newsworthy events---when really he would've been happier talking for hours in a room about how to best pull off a hit and run against Randy Johnson in late-September start, or whether one should swing a 32-ounce bat versus a 31-ounce bat when facing a junkball pitcher in Miami in July.

    A-Rod always struck me as consciously trying to consciously become the "Hispanic ____" instead of just being Alex Rodriguez.

    All that is humorous in light of the rise of "nerd/geek" chic over the last twenty years. Rodriguez could've been held up as a weird"jock nerd", and gotten guest appearances on Big Bang Theory, where he and Sheldon could've gotten into heated arguments about whether Worf would've been a good first basemen or whether Sisko's fastball was any good. Alas....

    Funny, baseball nerds like Tony Gwynn and Ted Williams never wanted for attention or fame despite their hyper-focused, almost-boring interest in hitting. But A-Rod saw himself differently, to his detriment.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Thanks.

  215. @R.G. Camara
    @AceDeuce


    Pitchers “adjust” to HR hitters largely the same way they adjust to hitters.

     

    They do that now, thanks to nearly a century of such adjustments. But 100 years ago, they had no concept of how to adjust from every other player slashing singles to Ruth just sitting back and launching balls over the new fences. For crying out loud, Ty Cobb used to bat with his hands split from one another---he was halfway between bunting and swinging away with each at bat. A homerun swing was literally not in the ballpark of ideas for anyone before Ruth.

    Again, imagine Tom Brady going back to 1900s football and hitting receivers 20-30 yards down field while everyone other quarterback was acting like an imitation of rugby in the mud and you know the defense would be bamboozled by both what was going on and the level it was going on at.


    As far as WS appearances/wins–well, that’s the name of the game, isn’t it? And at the heart of my mention of it wasn’t just appearing/winning the WS, it was one’s individual performance in the WS–Aaron, in the two series that he was in, did very well, with a .364 average.
     
    You need enough at bats to get a good sense, and that requires a great team around you to get you there consistently. An individual hitter alone has near-zero power in moving his team up the standings, unlike say, a basketball or hockey star, whose talent can often take a basement dweller to playoff contender. It's the nature of the games.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @anonymous as usual, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    The Aaron-Matthews-Spahn Braves should have won more than one World Series with all the talent they had. I don’t know exactly what went wrong. Matthews drank, Joe Adcock got hurt a lot, but I don’t know the full story.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Steve Sailer

    Uh, a team known as the Dodgers were in their way for most of their run. The NL was a super competitive league during the late 50's early 60's. SF was also very good. Then you also got a few surprise winners like PIT in 1960 and CIN in 1961.

    , @Desiderius
    @Steve Sailer

    Sabermetricians have found that praying for rain has a very low WAR.

    , @AceDeuce
    @Steve Sailer

    Don't forget Johnny Sain.

  216. @R.G. Camara
    @AceDeuce


    Pitchers “adjust” to HR hitters largely the same way they adjust to hitters.

     

    They do that now, thanks to nearly a century of such adjustments. But 100 years ago, they had no concept of how to adjust from every other player slashing singles to Ruth just sitting back and launching balls over the new fences. For crying out loud, Ty Cobb used to bat with his hands split from one another---he was halfway between bunting and swinging away with each at bat. A homerun swing was literally not in the ballpark of ideas for anyone before Ruth.

    Again, imagine Tom Brady going back to 1900s football and hitting receivers 20-30 yards down field while everyone other quarterback was acting like an imitation of rugby in the mud and you know the defense would be bamboozled by both what was going on and the level it was going on at.


    As far as WS appearances/wins–well, that’s the name of the game, isn’t it? And at the heart of my mention of it wasn’t just appearing/winning the WS, it was one’s individual performance in the WS–Aaron, in the two series that he was in, did very well, with a .364 average.
     
    You need enough at bats to get a good sense, and that requires a great team around you to get you there consistently. An individual hitter alone has near-zero power in moving his team up the standings, unlike say, a basketball or hockey star, whose talent can often take a basement dweller to playoff contender. It's the nature of the games.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @anonymous as usual, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    RG Camara —– you sound like a better informed version of Bill James, who is incredibly well informed.

    • Thanks: R.G. Camara
  217. @Anonymous
    Self-styled "Noticer of Patterns" Sailer fails to notice that "excited" and "full of life" Hammerin' Hank Aaron croaks just a fortnight after getting the Moderna vaccine, a new type of experimental vaccine which uses messenger RNA...

    https://twitter.com/KHollowayWSB/status/1352641971890872324

    Replies: @Jack Armstrong, @Nicholas Stix, @kaganovitch, @Steve Sailer

    I pointed out in the first paragraph that Aaron died a half month after being inoculated with the Moderna vaccine.

  218. @Anon
    @Steve Sailer

    Lots of circumstantial evidence that Aaron was roiding during his last few years in Atlanta (1969-1973):
    -Tom House steroid remarks-many players were using
    -1973 baseball drug report (buried in the Mitchell report)-astonishing number of players using steroids.
    -Aaron’s ridiculous HR/AB ratio for an older player
    -Davey Johnson ridiculous HR number in 1973
    -Steep decline post 1973-players were warned about the dangers of steroids by doctors.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    I pointed out in the first paragraph that Aaron died a half month after being inoculated with the Moderna vaccine.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Steve Sailer

    But this doesn't necessarily mean that Aaron died directly due to taking the vaccine. It hasn't publicly been stated that Hank Aaron did in fact have COVID, much less passed from it. Perhaps he had underlying health issues that weren't publicly disclosed prior and would've died this year anyway. Until it is publicly stated as to the reason he died, no one knows for certain as to the reason for his death.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  219. @Steve Sailer
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Jackie Robinson was above average for a Hall of Fame second baseman:

    https://www.baseball-almanac.com/hof/hofst2b.shtml

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    And above average is about top 1-2% of MLB players, but it is not the greatest of the great. Even today, the first thing recalled about Jackie Robinson (actually among the younger generations the only thing recalled about Robinson today) is that he broke the color line in MLB, not for anything he directly did on the field per se.

    Above average is not HOF worthy. BRK teammates Gil Hodges and Carl Furillo were every bit as good as Robinson, but they’re not in the HOF. Perhaps after half a century post retirement, or the Veterans Committee will help induct them, as stats have a way of suddenly improving decades after a player’s retirement.

    The more that I read of the HOF inducting people like Robinson, Santo, and Rice I really do believe that Dave Kingman should be in the HOF. He had more career HRs than any of the ones listed. Kingman has four HR’s more than HOF Andre Dawson. Realistically, as it is really about politics and popularity anymore, its no longer the Hall of Greatness but the Hall of ‘yeah, sure, why not that dude too?’

    A minor case could also be made for inducting Rusty Staub, though the powers that be (especially among the Woke crowd) if they latch on to his cause, don’t be surprised if Staub one day is inducted into the HOF. And the last thing MLB wants to be seen is anti-politically correct, so then once again it will be about politics in the induction process yet again.

    • Troll: ScarletNumber
  220. @Steve Sailer
    @Truth

    Jackie Robinson was great. He started in the majors at age 28 and helped the Dodgers get to 6 World Series in his 10 years in the big leagues.

    Robinson was an incredible all-around athlete (the favorite to win the long jump gold in the 1940 Olympics) who never really concentrated on baseball until he was about 26. By age 30, he was the NL MVP.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Truth

    Yes, Jackie himself said that baseball was his fourth-best sport behind football, track and field, and basketball.

  221. @Steve Sailer
    @R.G. Camara

    The Aaron-Matthews-Spahn Braves should have won more than one World Series with all the talent they had. I don't know exactly what went wrong. Matthews drank, Joe Adcock got hurt a lot, but I don't know the full story.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Desiderius, @AceDeuce

    Uh, a team known as the Dodgers were in their way for most of their run. The NL was a super competitive league during the late 50’s early 60’s. SF was also very good. Then you also got a few surprise winners like PIT in 1960 and CIN in 1961.

  222. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @kaganovitch

    Remember, Ruth's first three yrs with NY he played in the Polo Grounds, which had slightly better power alleys (but not drastically better). It was a major deal for him to go from the Polo Grounds as his home park to Yankee Stadium.

    Replies: @kaganovitch

    Remember, Ruth’s first three yrs with NY he played in the Polo Grounds, which had slightly better power alleys (but not drastically better). It was a major deal for him to go from the Polo Grounds as his home park to Yankee Stadium.

    You are absolutely right; Ruth’s numbers at the Polo grounds are other-worldly. His OPS was 1.323 and his Slugging % was .826. At the P.G. he averaged a home run every 8.8 at bats. If you back out the P.G. stats though, even at Yankee stadium he averaged a home run every 10.9 at bats, substantially better than he did on the road. The overall home run per AB numbers I cited earlier are skewed by his pre-Yankee career.

  223. @R.G. Camara
    @AceDeuce


    Pitchers “adjust” to HR hitters largely the same way they adjust to hitters.

     

    They do that now, thanks to nearly a century of such adjustments. But 100 years ago, they had no concept of how to adjust from every other player slashing singles to Ruth just sitting back and launching balls over the new fences. For crying out loud, Ty Cobb used to bat with his hands split from one another---he was halfway between bunting and swinging away with each at bat. A homerun swing was literally not in the ballpark of ideas for anyone before Ruth.

    Again, imagine Tom Brady going back to 1900s football and hitting receivers 20-30 yards down field while everyone other quarterback was acting like an imitation of rugby in the mud and you know the defense would be bamboozled by both what was going on and the level it was going on at.


    As far as WS appearances/wins–well, that’s the name of the game, isn’t it? And at the heart of my mention of it wasn’t just appearing/winning the WS, it was one’s individual performance in the WS–Aaron, in the two series that he was in, did very well, with a .364 average.
     
    You need enough at bats to get a good sense, and that requires a great team around you to get you there consistently. An individual hitter alone has near-zero power in moving his team up the standings, unlike say, a basketball or hockey star, whose talent can often take a basement dweller to playoff contender. It's the nature of the games.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @anonymous as usual, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    “An individual hitter alone has near-zero power in moving his team up the standings,”

    Not so, at least in one instance. Starting with NY’s acquiring of Babe Ruth, NY started to win WS. Yes, yes, they also got lots of other players from PHL and BOS, but it was Babe Ruth, the original straw that stirred the drink, that directly caused NY to become contenders. It was the only time in the twentieth century where one player was greater bigger than MLB itself. That’s the other thing that Ruth is recalled for: Hitting HR’s, and winning WS championships (though he only managed to help lead NY to 4 WS championships out of 7, but that was 4 more than they previously had won without him).

    In 1925, when Ruth missed most of the season due to illness, NY finished in 7th place. They wouldn’t finish lower than 3rd again until 1965. So one player can definitely directly impact an entire team’s standing. A healthy Babe Ruth returned in 1926, and NY won the AL Pennant. Lou Gehrig started playing full time in 1925, when NY finished 7th, so he didn’t have as major a direct impact on helping NY win all by himself. But once Babe Ruth returned to the lineup in 1926, NY started to win again.

  224. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Steve Sailer

    If Jackie Robinson had put up the same career numbers, but had been white, he would not be in the HOF today. No 500HRs, (not even 400 HRs) no 3,000 Hs, no 320 career BA. A very above average player, perhaps in the top 1-2% of MLB players of his generation. He is a great symbol of MLB, perhaps one of the greatest of the twentieth century. And his symbolism overshadows that he was above average as a player.

    Willie Mays was the first black player who was an all around great 5 tool player. No one of his generation, no one, was better than Willie Mays at all 5 aspects of the game. No one. And many, many sportswriters have concurred on this opinion. That's why it was such as shock that he didn't break Ruth's career HR record. He was expected to. Certainly Aaron wasn't on anyone's radar to do so.

    In other words with Willie Mays, unlike with Jackie Robinson, people saw a very great MLBer who happened to be black. Then as now, Jackie Robinson was a very great symbol and an above average player. If he was all that as an INF, he'd have played his career at SS and not 2B (but due to lack of arm power, they stuck him at 2B).

    Speaking of Olympics, perhaps the greatest all round pre 1950 athlete was Jim Thorpe, who was only mediocre at playing MLB. Olympic prowess does not automatically translate to other sports.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Truth, @Truth

    You know very little, Old Sport. Jackie Robinson made the majors at TWENTY-EIGHT. He played 10 years and was the ROY, MVP finished in the top 7 in MVP balloting 3 other times, a lifetime .311 hitter and had only been playing in the Negro Leagues for 2 years.

    Robinson was a fairly average NEGRO LEAGUE player, who Josh Gibson thought was being signed in order to fall on his face so they wouldn’t sign any other blacks. Think about that.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Truth

    No, I actually do know what's what.

    "He played 10 years and was the ROY, MVP finished in the top 7 in MVP balloting 3 other times, a lifetime .311 hitter."

    These are not HOF numbers. They are very good numbers, perhaps top 1% of his generation.

    Willie Mays, on the other hand, won 2 MVPs. 660 HRs, over 3,000 Hs, two batting titles, hit 50 HRs twice, etc. Robinson is a great symbol, and not much else. If he were white with the same numbers, he's not in the HOF. Think about that, matey.

  225. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Steve Sailer

    If Jackie Robinson had put up the same career numbers, but had been white, he would not be in the HOF today. No 500HRs, (not even 400 HRs) no 3,000 Hs, no 320 career BA. A very above average player, perhaps in the top 1-2% of MLB players of his generation. He is a great symbol of MLB, perhaps one of the greatest of the twentieth century. And his symbolism overshadows that he was above average as a player.

    Willie Mays was the first black player who was an all around great 5 tool player. No one of his generation, no one, was better than Willie Mays at all 5 aspects of the game. No one. And many, many sportswriters have concurred on this opinion. That's why it was such as shock that he didn't break Ruth's career HR record. He was expected to. Certainly Aaron wasn't on anyone's radar to do so.

    In other words with Willie Mays, unlike with Jackie Robinson, people saw a very great MLBer who happened to be black. Then as now, Jackie Robinson was a very great symbol and an above average player. If he was all that as an INF, he'd have played his career at SS and not 2B (but due to lack of arm power, they stuck him at 2B).

    Speaking of Olympics, perhaps the greatest all round pre 1950 athlete was Jim Thorpe, who was only mediocre at playing MLB. Olympic prowess does not automatically translate to other sports.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Truth, @Truth

    If Jackie Robinson had put up the same career numbers, but had been white, he would not be in the HOF today. No 500HRs, (not even 400 HRs) no 3,000 Hs, no 320 career BA.

    Again, this is foolishness.

    There are 20 2nd basemen in the HOF, here are some of Robinson’s contemporaries.

    https://www.baseball-almanac.com/hof/hofst2b.shtml

    He was a better player, than for instance Joe Gordon, Billy Herman, Red Schoendiest or Bobby Doerr who played at the same time he did.

    • Replies: @Mike Tre
    @Truth

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/who-are-the-brooklyn-dodgers-of-feminism/#comment-3479732


    To wit, Jackie never hit more than 19 home runs in a season and he had only one year (1949) in which drove in more than 100 runs.
    How many seasons of double 100s (walks, RBIs, or runs) did Jackie have? Just two seasons, 1949 and 1952.
    How many seasons of triple 100s? NONE.
    Check out how many seasons of double and triple 100s Ruth, Gehrig, Williams, DiMaggio, Fox, Musial, and Tomey had.
    Jackie had a total of 8 black ink numbers. Ted Williams had 12 in 1949. Yaz had 10 in 1967.
    But, did ya see Jackie Robinson hit that ball?
     
    , @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Truth

    That's a lie. Joe Gordon is very comparable to Robinson. Gordon won the MVP, perennial in RBI's and HRs. Was as much a key INF for NY as was Robinson for BRK.

    It is not foolishness to point out that he did not have 3,000 H's or 500 HRs. Stats used to mean something. These are stats compiled over a player's career and he simply didnt have them.

    Ichiro Suzuki, for instance, was nearly 30 when he joined MLB. And yet in MLB, he has over 3,000 H's. He also broke the MLB single season record for H's. Ichiro didn't have any problem reaching 3,000 H's and he was about the same age as Robinson when he reached MLB. I want to hear you say that Ichiro Suzuki doesn't belong in the HOF or that he won't get inducted on the first ballot.

    Replies: @Truth

  226. @Danindc
    @Buffalo Joe

    Kelly played well in the only Super Bowl they had a chance to win. The first one. They were sacrificial lambs in the next three

    Replies: @Buffalo Joe

    Dan, Thurman Thomas played well in Super Bowl 25, their first shot at the crown. Kelly was 18 of 30 for 212 yards and no TDs and a QB Rating of 81.5. Not too stellar.

    • Replies: @Danindc
    @Buffalo Joe

    I remember him playing well overall. Especially on what should’ve been game- winning drive. Good point though.

  227. @R.G. Camara
    @kaganovitch

    Yount was actually in the DiMaggio category---a great athlete and teammate who's numbers didn't reflect the athleticism and "class" and other intangibles people chalked up to him. Yount in NYC would've gotten a similar reception to DiMaggio, although not as great.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @kaganovitch, @Reg Cæsar

    Yount in NYC would’ve gotten a similar reception to DiMaggio…

    In the Bronx. Not in Flushing. Hear of any Mets, Jets, Nets, Rangers, or Islanders lately?

    Of course, Milwaukee is Ultima Thule. That’s why nobody ever heard of Henry Aaron till he moved to Atlanta.

  228. @Swamp Fox
    @Mike Tre

    Amphetamines and steroids can't make you better at hitting an exploding slider or a barn swallow curve.

    Replies: @Mike Tre

    I agree. But to hit those pitches, you first have to be in the lineup, which steroids and amphetamines are helpful with.

    • Agree: Swamp Fox
  229. @Steve Sailer
    @AceDeuce

    History of the baseball:

    1901-1910: truly a Dead Ball era
    1911: Modern rubber core ball introduced, hitting stats jump
    ~1913: pitchers respond by spitting on the ball, balls get muddy, hard to see, hitting recedes
    1918: To support the War Effort, umpires keep dirty balls in play longer, batting drops, pitcher Ruth hits 11 homers in 95 games
    1919: Return of pre-WWI quality baseballs: Ruth hits record 29 homers
    1920: Spitball banned except for 17 pitchers grandfathered in, Ruth hits 54 homers
    August 1920: Ray Chapman killed by a pitch he didn't; umpires instructed to put more new balls into play
    1921: Ruth hits 59 homers
    ~1925: a new rabbit ball is introduced, but the history is murky
    1927 Ruth hits 60 homers
    1930: Batting averages peak
    Post-1930: the rabbit ball is tamed, perhaps more in the National than the American league; batting drops in NL

    A shortlived change to make the ball go further appears to have been tried in 1987.
    The ball appears to have been made more streamlined in mid-2015, introducing the new home run era.

    Ruth's records are mostly the result of his own skills, innovations, and his positive impact on the game. E.g., the AL could afford to use more clean new baseballs after Roy Chapman's death in August 1920 because Ruth was drawing unprecedented crowds around the league.

    Aaron, by the way, spent 1963-1968 in the heart of his career playing under the misguided rules introduced in 1963 to cut down on hitting that led to the Pitcher Era that culminated in 1968. When the rules became more sensible in 1969, he had monster seasons in 1969, 1971, and 1973. Aaron probably would have hit 800 homers without the stupid huge strike zone of 1963-1968.

    Replies: @AceDeuce, @David In TN

    The geniuses who ran baseball got the idea that there was too much hitting and scoring in 1961-62. These “purists” especially disliked Babe Ruth’s record being broken by Roger Maris.

    So they enlarged the strike zone. By 1968 attendance was going down. And pro football was exploding in popularity.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @David In TN

    It was bound to happen regardless of any rule changes. By the '60's the NFL was seen as something new, fresh, exciting while MLB was boring, dull, part of the establishment. TV really made the NFL, while MLB never has done well on TV compared to the NFL. Also, NFL Films came along at the right moment and brought a documentary style to a "new" exciting sport. It helped create a new mythos, a new narrative that ran rings and circles around MLB. In the early days (pre 1990's) the NFL allowed a certain amount of physicality that obviously isn't permitted today, but back then it was exciting, primal, fresh creatively different. No physicality in MLB or any other US sport approaches what one could view watching an NFL game. Broken bones, concussions, torn ligaments, and that was just on special teams kickoffs. Bone crushing defensive plays. This is what helped cement the legacy of the NFL as a warlike brutal, masculine sport. The sport of "real men" and not betas.

    Funny thing. No Sabermetrics or anything approaching sabermetrics to the degree that it has overtaken MLB, and yet the NFL is the US's number one sport and has been for nearly half a century. Sometimes overthinking can entirely ruin a sport, especially regarding revenue, profits, etc. A lesson to be learned. The big picture is what counts.

    Replies: @David In TN

    , @Steve Sailer
    @David In TN

    That was really dumb. Some of the weird statistics of 1961-62 like Maris's 61 homers and Tommy Davis's 153 RBIs were due to expanding from 154 to 162 games and to expansion, which temporarily inflates statistics until the expansion teams figure out who can actually play at the major league level. The 1962 Mets were one of the worst teams ever. Within a few years, though, they were just a normal bad team.

    Replies: @Truth

  230. @R.G. Camara
    @David In TN

    Mantle held the advantages of, as a switch-hitter, being able to bat left-handed in Yankee stadium and having a murderer's row hitting around him for most of his career, so pitchers couldn't just pitch around him. During the 1961 season when Maris broke Ruth's record, Mantle and Maris batted #3 and #4 (and many Yankee fans were booing Maris cheering for Mantle to break the record instead).

    Replies: @David In TN

    Maris batted #3 and Mantle batted #4.

  231. @David In TN
    @Steve Sailer

    The geniuses who ran baseball got the idea that there was too much hitting and scoring in 1961-62. These "purists" especially disliked Babe Ruth's record being broken by Roger Maris.

    So they enlarged the strike zone. By 1968 attendance was going down. And pro football was exploding in popularity.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Steve Sailer

    It was bound to happen regardless of any rule changes. By the ’60’s the NFL was seen as something new, fresh, exciting while MLB was boring, dull, part of the establishment. TV really made the NFL, while MLB never has done well on TV compared to the NFL. Also, NFL Films came along at the right moment and brought a documentary style to a “new” exciting sport. It helped create a new mythos, a new narrative that ran rings and circles around MLB. In the early days (pre 1990’s) the NFL allowed a certain amount of physicality that obviously isn’t permitted today, but back then it was exciting, primal, fresh creatively different. No physicality in MLB or any other US sport approaches what one could view watching an NFL game. Broken bones, concussions, torn ligaments, and that was just on special teams kickoffs. Bone crushing defensive plays. This is what helped cement the legacy of the NFL as a warlike brutal, masculine sport. The sport of “real men” and not betas.

    Funny thing. No Sabermetrics or anything approaching sabermetrics to the degree that it has overtaken MLB, and yet the NFL is the US’s number one sport and has been for nearly half a century. Sometimes overthinking can entirely ruin a sport, especially regarding revenue, profits, etc. A lesson to be learned. The big picture is what counts.

    • Replies: @David In TN
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    I am perfectly aware pro football was going to overtake baseball in popularity. However, it wasn't until 1972 that the Gallup Poll had football surpassing baseball as America's favorite sport. Source: The Pro Football Chronicle, 1990.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

  232. @Steve Sailer
    @Anon

    I pointed out in the first paragraph that Aaron died a half month after being inoculated with the Moderna vaccine.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    But this doesn’t necessarily mean that Aaron died directly due to taking the vaccine. It hasn’t publicly been stated that Hank Aaron did in fact have COVID, much less passed from it. Perhaps he had underlying health issues that weren’t publicly disclosed prior and would’ve died this year anyway. Until it is publicly stated as to the reason he died, no one knows for certain as to the reason for his death.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Which is why I reported that he'd recently gotten the vaccine but didn't leap to a conclusion about the cause of death.

    Replies: @anon, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

  233. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Steve Sailer

    But this doesn't necessarily mean that Aaron died directly due to taking the vaccine. It hasn't publicly been stated that Hank Aaron did in fact have COVID, much less passed from it. Perhaps he had underlying health issues that weren't publicly disclosed prior and would've died this year anyway. Until it is publicly stated as to the reason he died, no one knows for certain as to the reason for his death.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Which is why I reported that he’d recently gotten the vaccine but didn’t leap to a conclusion about the cause of death.

    • Agree: Desiderius
    • Replies: @anon
    @Steve Sailer

    Which is unusual.

    Someone dies past year from any cause goes as Covid.

    Except when vaxine could be/is the cause.

    Then anything but vaxine is the cause.

    Poor ole guinea pig, dupe Hank.

    They used you then abused you.

    5 dancing shlomos

    , @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Steve Sailer

    Granted, then it's been posters and online speculation that is stoking the flames. After all, if Aaron did have COVID, its not yet certain that taking the vaccine would've directly helped him recover in record time, much less make a full recovery. A friend recently tested positive, and he now has to wait until COVID leaves his system before he's allowed to get the vaccine. That's what he was informed.

    What is also weird is that NLF HOFer Kevin Greene died last month and still there has not been anything publicly released as to the cause of his death. That's very rare that the cause of a public figure's death isn't directly released to the public immediately. And yet for Kevin Greene's case, it's been over a month and no one knows the official cause of death.

  234. @anonymous as usual
    @Ron Mexico

    Sorry to clue you in on this, but he used to build up his T levels, according to some, by having sex with very young prostitutes the night before an afternoon game. My hopeful guess is they were at least 17, which would make him a non-criminal in today's Europe, but I also guess that the more negative rumors might be true.

    I would love for the rumors not to be true, but I mean look at the guy. Of course there is a good chance they are true.

    Replies: @R.G. Camara, @Ron Mexico

    So he was “juicing” naturally?

  235. @woody weaver
    @Trinity

    What never ceases to amaze me about Babe Ruth was his 94-46 record as a pitcher and 2.28 ERA. Some of the most productive years as a player were spent on the mound. That makes his 8399 at-bats to reach 714 home runs even more impressive. Looking at Ruth's pitching statistics, Ruth twice won more than twenty games and pitched more than 300 innings. Ruth is the game's greatest player hands down. Hank Aaron is certainly a top five or ten great but Ruth excelled on both the mound and the field which places him at the top.

    Replies: @Pat Kittle

    One explanation I heard for Yankee Stadium being called “the house that Ruth built” was its short right field (296′ at the foul line), with a 4′ fence.

    Ruth batted left-handed.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Pat Kittle

    Ruth, like most power HR hitters, hit the majority of his HR's in the power alleys. In Yankee Stadium during that era, the RCF power alley was about 440 FT away. The famous Left Center Field power alley, aptly named "Death Valley" was about 457 FT away, with CF being 461 FT. Think about that. The power alleys, where most HR hitters strength of their swing goes, was over 100 FT further back than what they are now. No MLB park would dare move their power alley fences 100 FT further back today. Legend has it that when Yankee Stadium opened and Ruth saw the new power alley fences, he cried. The Polo Grounds, where he had been playing for the previous 3 yrs, was a much easier ballpark to hit HRs in at least in some of the power alleys.

    Yankee Stadium was a pitcher's ballpark for a reason. No cheap HR's were hit there. The only types of hitter who could really effectively utilize the short porch of 296 FT were: 1. a RH hitter who was adept at hitting the ball to the opposite field (e.g. Bill "Moose" Skowron), or 2. Roger Maris. Maris did have a short, compact swing, unlike Ruth, DiMaggio, Gehrig, Mantle or pretty much 99% of all HR sluggers who, then as now, take big and wide swings. Maris, however, was originally a line drive hitter who had a short swing. Therefore he benefitted from the short porch. Everyone else, not so much (unless it was an opposite field HR by a RH hitter).

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  236. @Truth
    @Buffalo Joe

    I was on a boxing board once where somebody posed the question; "why is Pipino Cuevas in the IBHOF". And someone else came up with an incredibly great answer, he said; "because the games are played for the benefit of the fans, and it is called "The Hall of Fame, not the Hall of Good."

    Pipino Cuevas had a 3 year run that unparalleled in his era, he packed arenas in Southern California, bought a generation of rabid Mexican-American fans to the game, had 11 KO's in a row in 11 title defenses (if I remember right), broke bones and eye sockets and created excitement to a level few have for his short prime. Even his two most memorable losses, to two of the greatest fighters of all time will have people talking forever.

    Arturo Gatti is another one; not a great fighter by any means, but beloved by fans of the sport, and a combatant in some of the most exciting boxing matches of all time.

    Levy and Kelly were loved, and have a legacy, as America's most lovable "winning-losers" of their era. They are famous.

    Earl Monroe, if I remember correctly made ONE all-NBA team, and averaged 18 - points, but he was emblematic of a man who sacrificed his fame and personal stats to make a winning, multiracial, New York team.

    Anybody who watched Dave Parker in his time would tell you that he was better than Jim Rice, and he won two WS, but the most "famous guy on each team was Stargell, and Rickey Henderson. Rice was more "famous" as part of the longest running outfield in history (I believe) playing for ONE classic team for many years, and having the highest peak of anyone on that team.

    Do we really need both Rollie Fingers and Bruce Sutter in the Hall of fame? Well, Rollie had the moustache and the quirks, and Bruce was a Cub.

    Replies: @Ron Mexico

    “Do we really need both Rollie Fingers and Bruce Sutter in the Hall of fame?” or Lee Smith?

  237. @Steve Sailer
    @R.G. Camara

    I don't have any evidence that Aaron ever touched PEDs, but pitcher Tom House, who was on the Braves from 1971-1975, admits to juicing.

    Steroid use was more erratic and regional back then so it's hard to say for sure. In baseball, it clearly went up in the 1990s, suggesting most ballplayers weren't using up through the 1980s.

    But I'd guess that a lot of famous athletes in Southern California around 50 years ago at least tried them. E.g., Wilt Chamberlain added 40 pounds of muscle after being traded to LA in 1968 and spending the summer at Muscle Beach with the bodybuilders. Would Wilt, who was curious and easily bored and always looking for a new self-improvement project, have tried this drug his new friends at Muscle Beach swore by? Sure. Would O.J. Simpson have tried what the weight men on his USC track and field team recommended? I've never heard anything about OJ and steroids, but the thought isn't exactly shocking. How about Don Sutton? His nickname was "Black & Decker" for scuffing the ball. Would he try a few pills? I dunno.

    Replies: @Mike Tre, @R.G. Camara, @Nicholas Stix, @Anon, @ScarletNumber

    pitcher Tom House, who was on the Braves from 1971-1975

    Atlanta Stadium didn’t have bleachers, so Henry’s 715th homerun landed in the bullpen, where it was caught by Tom House.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @ScarletNumber

    In the video of Aaron's 715th homer, you can see a fan waving a big fish net on a 20 foot pole trying to snag the ball.

    For some reason, in my memory, the guy with the giant net was bon vivant writer George Plimpton.

    But that appears to be completely false.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

  238. @Ganderson
    Inner circle HOFer. I’ve made this point before, but he was oddly underrated. I get the sense that most don’t put him in the same category as Mays and Mantle. R.G. suggests why above. They should though. And a lot of the headlines emphasize that he was a slugger- he was, but he was so much more. My favorite player growing up was Harmon Killebrew, a legit Hall of Famer. Aaron was an order of magnitude better than Harmon. I’d wager Harmon would agree.

    Replies: @kaganovitch, @ScarletNumber

    I’ve made this point before, but [Aaron] was oddly underrated.

    Yes he was. Remember, last week when he was alive, if you asked baseball fans who the greatest living ballplayer was, no one would have answered Aaron. The answer is Willie Mays.

  239. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    Hank Aaron was the most consistently reliable hitter of the 20th century. Like his counterpart Pete Rose, Aaron also benefitted by never having had a major injury sideline him for sizable amount of time. From 1954 to 1974, he never hit fewer than 25 HR's nor more than 47 in a single season. It should be noted that Fulton County Stadium in MIL was not as much a pitcher's park compared to Dodger Stadium. After all, Aaron's teammate HOF 3B Eddie Matthews hit 512 HR's during his career playing most of it in MIL. If anything HOF SF CF Willie Mays, who played the majority of his career in Candlestick park, was a much tougher ballpark to hit HR's due to the unsual wind currents (the fact that Candlestick Park was literally built on a wind tunnel, thus causing havoc on hit balls in general).

    After about 1961 or so, MIL/ATL wasn't particularly dominant a club (aside from winning the Western division in 1969) from a NL Pennant standpoint, which might account for why Aaron didn't quite get the recognition he deserved for most of his career.

    Willie Mays was always considered the one player who would eventually break Babe Ruth's HR record, but playing CF in Candlestick park, a much larger range of OF to cover compared to Aaron (RF), plus some late career injuries, took their toll on the Say Hey Kid, and he came up short of the record.

    Even now, one could make a case that overall as a 5 tool player, Willie Mays was the far superior player than Aaron. Because he began and ended his career in NY, Mays was always the favored one of the NY sportswriters and would've probably had greater support behind him and less controversy if he had broken Ruth's record. Willie was also the first African-American, (unlike Jackie Robinson) who clearly wasn't a token, a symbol of breaking the color line. Willie Mays was the first five tool African-American MLBer who clearly was the most dominant CF and hitter for the bulk of his career, mainly because for most of his two decades plus career, Willie Mays was indeed the greatest player in MLB, which was something seldom ever accorded to Aaron until the tail end of his career. During the 50's and 60's, Aaron's name doesn't figure prominently as the most dominant player in MLB, especially when compared to Mays. He simply outlasted Mays (and was fortunate not to have had a single major injury that caused him to miss significant amount of games).

    When asked "Who's the greatest player in MLB?" In his usual less than modest but factual answer, Willie replied "Me." (Mays' estimation for 2nd greatest all round player in MLB was PIT Roberto Clemente.)

    Replies: @Truth, @ScarletNumber

    Willie Mays was always considered the one player who would eventually break Babe Ruth’s HR record

    Aaron didn’t pass Mays until June 10, 1972, when he hit his 649th home run. Less than two years later, he passed the Babe.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @ScarletNumber

    From age 31-34, Willie Mays averaged an incredible 47 homers per year in 1962-1965, giving him 505 after 1965. After that he declined, with subsequent peaks of 37 and 28.

    Aaron, who was 3 years younger, had 398 after 1965. But moving to Atlanta in 1966 got him into a better hitter's park, so his output stayed very high thru 1973.

    Frank Robinson, the third great NL outfielder-slugger to come up in the 1950s, briefly moved ahead of Aaron on home runs by age after his 49-homer 1966 season. But he never hit more than 32 after age 30 and finished with 586.

    Replies: @David In TN

  240. @I, Libertine
    @Morton's toes

    Several sets of brothers - the Niekros, the Madduxes and the Perrys, ruined a similarly tricky baseball trivia question. Which set of brothers who both pitched in the big leagues combined for the most lifetime wins? The answer once was the Mathewsons: Christy (373) and Henry (zero).

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

    I don’t think it counts when one of the brothers literally contributes nothing.

    Anyway, the Aarons hold the record for a pair of brothers hitting the most HR, but I didn’t realize who was in second with 508

    [MORE]
    Eddie (504) and Rich (4) Murray

  241. @Marty
    @Trinity

    Barry’s arm was well below average. Well known story about Bill Virdon coaching him to camouflage it with a quick release. When Jim Leyland famously blew up at Bonds in spring training, it was because Bonds was ignoring Virdon. But he could jump, like Rickey and Griffey.

    Replies: @Trinity, @ScarletNumber

    Bill Virdon was the first Yankee manager since Wild Bill Donovan in 1915-17 to not manage a game in Yankee Stadium.

  242. @R.G. Camara
    @Nicholas Stix

    Because he innovated it. Ruth "hacked" a new system.

    Prior to 1900-1910, baseball was played in open fields with no fences. Spectators sometimes roamed behind outfielders, and occasionally there was a rope or chalk line that they were supposed to stay behind, but if a ball got past an outfielder or even past the line, it was still in play. Outfielders ran to get the ball (sometimes fighting with fans for it), so hitters still had to race around the bases as fast as they could in the event they still got thrown out. There was no "home run trot".

    Then beginning in the 1900s, owners realized they could get a lot more profits if they fenced in parks and built stadium seating. So they did so. But land in cities being expensive, these parks often had snugger dimensions than the old open fields. And in the early 1910s, a slew of smaller parks got built: Fenway, Old Tiger Stadium, Wrigley date from this era. These parks forced baseball to make a rule that, if a ball went over the new fences, it became an automatic "home run", because otherwise outfielders would have had to comically climb the fence and try to get the balls.

    No one really thought about this rule change much, and the players kept playing the old way they had grown up playing, as if they were open fields. Until Ruth.

    Ruth was smart enough to realize this "automatic home run" new rule could potentially change the game and be more profitable to a hitter, if only he could unlearn his old deadball hitting ways and figure out how to launch balls upwards with enough momentum. And he did figure it out---and the rest is history,

    So Ruth was responding to a recent changes---the automatic home run in all the new, ubiquitous snug parks. No one was building new MLB parks without fences, ergo, every park was a automatic home run park.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Mike Tre, @ScarletNumber

    It’s not that Ruth figured out a new way of hitting. Rather, since he was a pitcher, no one cared that he didn’t hit the traditional way. Therefore, he was free to do what he liked at the batters box.

  243. @Truth
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi


    If Jackie Robinson had put up the same career numbers, but had been white, he would not be in the HOF today. No 500HRs, (not even 400 HRs) no 3,000 Hs, no 320 career BA.
     
    Again, this is foolishness.

    There are 20 2nd basemen in the HOF, here are some of Robinson's contemporaries.

    https://www.baseball-almanac.com/hof/hofst2b.shtml

    He was a better player, than for instance Joe Gordon, Billy Herman, Red Schoendiest or Bobby Doerr who played at the same time he did.

    Replies: @Mike Tre, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/who-are-the-brooklyn-dodgers-of-feminism/#comment-3479732

    To wit, Jackie never hit more than 19 home runs in a season and he had only one year (1949) in which drove in more than 100 runs.
    How many seasons of double 100s (walks, RBIs, or runs) did Jackie have? Just two seasons, 1949 and 1952.
    How many seasons of triple 100s? NONE.
    Check out how many seasons of double and triple 100s Ruth, Gehrig, Williams, DiMaggio, Fox, Musial, and Tomey had.
    Jackie had a total of 8 black ink numbers. Ted Williams had 12 in 1949. Yaz had 10 in 1967.
    But, did ya see Jackie Robinson hit that ball?

  244. @Buffalo Joe
    @Danindc

    Dan, Thurman Thomas played well in Super Bowl 25, their first shot at the crown. Kelly was 18 of 30 for 212 yards and no TDs and a QB Rating of 81.5. Not too stellar.

    Replies: @Danindc

    I remember him playing well overall. Especially on what should’ve been game- winning drive. Good point though.

  245. @Steve Sailer
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Which is why I reported that he'd recently gotten the vaccine but didn't leap to a conclusion about the cause of death.

    Replies: @anon, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Which is unusual.

    Someone dies past year from any cause goes as Covid.

    Except when vaxine could be/is the cause.

    Then anything but vaxine is the cause.

    Poor ole guinea pig, dupe Hank.

    They used you then abused you.

    5 dancing shlomos

  246. @Truth
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    You know very little, Old Sport. Jackie Robinson made the majors at TWENTY-EIGHT. He played 10 years and was the ROY, MVP finished in the top 7 in MVP balloting 3 other times, a lifetime .311 hitter and had only been playing in the Negro Leagues for 2 years.

    Robinson was a fairly average NEGRO LEAGUE player, who Josh Gibson thought was being signed in order to fall on his face so they wouldn't sign any other blacks. Think about that.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    No, I actually do know what’s what.

    “He played 10 years and was the ROY, MVP finished in the top 7 in MVP balloting 3 other times, a lifetime .311 hitter.”

    These are not HOF numbers. They are very good numbers, perhaps top 1% of his generation.

    Willie Mays, on the other hand, won 2 MVPs. 660 HRs, over 3,000 Hs, two batting titles, hit 50 HRs twice, etc. Robinson is a great symbol, and not much else. If he were white with the same numbers, he’s not in the HOF. Think about that, matey.

  247. @Truth
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi


    If Jackie Robinson had put up the same career numbers, but had been white, he would not be in the HOF today. No 500HRs, (not even 400 HRs) no 3,000 Hs, no 320 career BA.
     
    Again, this is foolishness.

    There are 20 2nd basemen in the HOF, here are some of Robinson's contemporaries.

    https://www.baseball-almanac.com/hof/hofst2b.shtml

    He was a better player, than for instance Joe Gordon, Billy Herman, Red Schoendiest or Bobby Doerr who played at the same time he did.

    Replies: @Mike Tre, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    That’s a lie. Joe Gordon is very comparable to Robinson. Gordon won the MVP, perennial in RBI’s and HRs. Was as much a key INF for NY as was Robinson for BRK.

    It is not foolishness to point out that he did not have 3,000 H’s or 500 HRs. Stats used to mean something. These are stats compiled over a player’s career and he simply didnt have them.

    Ichiro Suzuki, for instance, was nearly 30 when he joined MLB. And yet in MLB, he has over 3,000 H’s. He also broke the MLB single season record for H’s. Ichiro didn’t have any problem reaching 3,000 H’s and he was about the same age as Robinson when he reached MLB. I want to hear you say that Ichiro Suzuki doesn’t belong in the HOF or that he won’t get inducted on the first ballot.

    • Replies: @Truth
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Joe Gordon didn't have 3,000 hits or 500 hr.He had 1,500 hits and a .268 batting average

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

  248. @Steve Sailer
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Which is why I reported that he'd recently gotten the vaccine but didn't leap to a conclusion about the cause of death.

    Replies: @anon, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Granted, then it’s been posters and online speculation that is stoking the flames. After all, if Aaron did have COVID, its not yet certain that taking the vaccine would’ve directly helped him recover in record time, much less make a full recovery. A friend recently tested positive, and he now has to wait until COVID leaves his system before he’s allowed to get the vaccine. That’s what he was informed.

    What is also weird is that NLF HOFer Kevin Greene died last month and still there has not been anything publicly released as to the cause of his death. That’s very rare that the cause of a public figure’s death isn’t directly released to the public immediately. And yet for Kevin Greene’s case, it’s been over a month and no one knows the official cause of death.

  249. @Steve Sailer
    @R.G. Camara

    The Aaron-Matthews-Spahn Braves should have won more than one World Series with all the talent they had. I don't know exactly what went wrong. Matthews drank, Joe Adcock got hurt a lot, but I don't know the full story.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Desiderius, @AceDeuce

    Sabermetricians have found that praying for rain has a very low WAR.

  250. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @David In TN

    It was bound to happen regardless of any rule changes. By the '60's the NFL was seen as something new, fresh, exciting while MLB was boring, dull, part of the establishment. TV really made the NFL, while MLB never has done well on TV compared to the NFL. Also, NFL Films came along at the right moment and brought a documentary style to a "new" exciting sport. It helped create a new mythos, a new narrative that ran rings and circles around MLB. In the early days (pre 1990's) the NFL allowed a certain amount of physicality that obviously isn't permitted today, but back then it was exciting, primal, fresh creatively different. No physicality in MLB or any other US sport approaches what one could view watching an NFL game. Broken bones, concussions, torn ligaments, and that was just on special teams kickoffs. Bone crushing defensive plays. This is what helped cement the legacy of the NFL as a warlike brutal, masculine sport. The sport of "real men" and not betas.

    Funny thing. No Sabermetrics or anything approaching sabermetrics to the degree that it has overtaken MLB, and yet the NFL is the US's number one sport and has been for nearly half a century. Sometimes overthinking can entirely ruin a sport, especially regarding revenue, profits, etc. A lesson to be learned. The big picture is what counts.

    Replies: @David In TN

    I am perfectly aware pro football was going to overtake baseball in popularity. However, it wasn’t until 1972 that the Gallup Poll had football surpassing baseball as America’s favorite sport. Source: The Pro Football Chronicle, 1990.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @David In TN

    So next yr is half a century where the National Pastime has been second fiddle to the NFL. Thanks.

  251. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Truth

    That's a lie. Joe Gordon is very comparable to Robinson. Gordon won the MVP, perennial in RBI's and HRs. Was as much a key INF for NY as was Robinson for BRK.

    It is not foolishness to point out that he did not have 3,000 H's or 500 HRs. Stats used to mean something. These are stats compiled over a player's career and he simply didnt have them.

    Ichiro Suzuki, for instance, was nearly 30 when he joined MLB. And yet in MLB, he has over 3,000 H's. He also broke the MLB single season record for H's. Ichiro didn't have any problem reaching 3,000 H's and he was about the same age as Robinson when he reached MLB. I want to hear you say that Ichiro Suzuki doesn't belong in the HOF or that he won't get inducted on the first ballot.

    Replies: @Truth

    Joe Gordon didn’t have 3,000 hits or 500 hr.He had 1,500 hits and a .268 batting average

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Truth

    Right. Jackie Robinson had the third highest On Base Percentage, behind only legends Rogers Hornsby and Jackie Collins.

    What the early 50s Dodgers batting line-up?

    PeeWee Reese, Jackie Robinson, Duke Snider, Roy Campanella, Gil Hodges, Carl Furillo?

    That would put some runs on the scoreboard.

    Then they put Junior Gilliam in the lead off position and he scored a lot too.

    https://www.baseball-almanac.com/hof/hofst2b.shtml

    In general, second basemen get injured a lot while turning doubleplays at second by baserunners barrelling into them with their backs turned. So they have a hard time having a long career at 100% offensive capability. Between tending to be small and getting dinged up all the time, no second baseman has ever hit 400 homers.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    , @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Truth

    I agree, that neither should be in the HOF. Gordon is the result of the Veterans Committee voting. When the Vets start inducting their contemporaries or former teammates, it means that they've run out of the most dominant fairly obvious HOF candidates and are scrapping the bottom of the barrel. As in, "Well, now who do we induct?" A brainstorm: maybe some yrs you don't induct anyone.

    but for little more than half a decade, he was fairly dominant 2B, same as Robinson. Again, if Jackie were white, he's not in the HOF.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  252. @Truth
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Joe Gordon didn't have 3,000 hits or 500 hr.He had 1,500 hits and a .268 batting average

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Right. Jackie Robinson had the third highest On Base Percentage, behind only legends Rogers Hornsby and Jackie Collins.

    What the early 50s Dodgers batting line-up?

    PeeWee Reese, Jackie Robinson, Duke Snider, Roy Campanella, Gil Hodges, Carl Furillo?

    That would put some runs on the scoreboard.

    Then they put Junior Gilliam in the lead off position and he scored a lot too.

    https://www.baseball-almanac.com/hof/hofst2b.shtml

    In general, second basemen get injured a lot while turning doubleplays at second by baserunners barrelling into them with their backs turned. So they have a hard time having a long career at 100% offensive capability. Between tending to be small and getting dinged up all the time, no second baseman has ever hit 400 homers.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Steve Sailer

    Oh, well, if his On Base Percentage is the third highest among 2B in the HOF, well, then it's an obvious slam dunk. Again, no 500 HRs, no 3,000 Hs. But on base percentage, well, that settles it, goodness.

    BRK played in a bandbox of a ballpark. Ebbetts Field's power alleys, especially compared to Yankee Stadium, were a complete joke. Doesn't sabermetrics tend to obsess over ballparks, which ones are pitchers vs hitters, etc? BRK's run differential was nearly a full run lower whenever they played the Yankees, and particularly when they played in Yankee Stadium. This has actually been commented on before. That's part of the reason that from 1941 thru 1956, NY played BRK 7 times in the WS, with NY winning every one except for 1955.

    Perhaps Robinson's vaunted On Base Percentage (as well as the rest of the BRK players) is inflated due to playing in a bandbox ballpark like Ebbetts Field.

    "Left field and left center in Yankee Stadium, that's where the Dodgers got killed. You looked up and down the lineup, and some of those power hitters who had twenty, twenty-five home runs every season would have hit ten playing their home games in our park. They were just an ordinary club once you got them out of Brooklyn. Ebbets Field was a bandbox....If Mickey had played there his whole career, he would've hit 800 home runs."--Billy Martin, from NY Sportswriter Richard Lally's book "Bombers."

    "The ball just flew out of Ebbetts Field. In left field or left center, you hit the ball 350 feet, it was gone. Same shot to left center in Yankee Stadium, nice easy out. Another thing, the Dodgers lineup was mostly right-handed."--Tommy Byrne from "Bombers"

    Regarding the two clubs run differential over 6 WSf ('47-56): "In 19 games played at Yankee Stadium, the Yankees averaged 4.31 runs per game, winning fourteen while losing four. Of the 20 games held in Ebbetts Field, the Yankees won 9 for a .450 percentage...as they scored 4.75 runs per game, a home/away scoring differential of barely ten percent. Conversely, the Dodgers, averaging 4.65 runs per game, scored almost as often as the Yankees when the series was played on their home field. But in the Bronx, facing the same pitchers they hit so well in Flatbush, BRK offense withered. It could muster 2.63 runs per game, a 43 percent decline that, five times out of six, proved insurmountable."--from Bombers.

    Yep, that on base percentage is the be all and end all. 6 WS's and only one championship.

  253. @Steve Sailer
    @R.G. Camara

    The Aaron-Matthews-Spahn Braves should have won more than one World Series with all the talent they had. I don't know exactly what went wrong. Matthews drank, Joe Adcock got hurt a lot, but I don't know the full story.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Desiderius, @AceDeuce

    Don’t forget Johnny Sain.

  254. @Pat Kittle
    @woody weaver

    One explanation I heard for Yankee Stadium being called "the house that Ruth built" was its short right field (296' at the foul line), with a 4' fence.

    Ruth batted left-handed.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Ruth, like most power HR hitters, hit the majority of his HR’s in the power alleys. In Yankee Stadium during that era, the RCF power alley was about 440 FT away. The famous Left Center Field power alley, aptly named “Death Valley” was about 457 FT away, with CF being 461 FT. Think about that. The power alleys, where most HR hitters strength of their swing goes, was over 100 FT further back than what they are now. No MLB park would dare move their power alley fences 100 FT further back today. Legend has it that when Yankee Stadium opened and Ruth saw the new power alley fences, he cried. The Polo Grounds, where he had been playing for the previous 3 yrs, was a much easier ballpark to hit HRs in at least in some of the power alleys.

    Yankee Stadium was a pitcher’s ballpark for a reason. No cheap HR’s were hit there. The only types of hitter who could really effectively utilize the short porch of 296 FT were: 1. a RH hitter who was adept at hitting the ball to the opposite field (e.g. Bill “Moose” Skowron), or 2. Roger Maris. Maris did have a short, compact swing, unlike Ruth, DiMaggio, Gehrig, Mantle or pretty much 99% of all HR sluggers who, then as now, take big and wide swings. Maris, however, was originally a line drive hitter who had a short swing. Therefore he benefitted from the short porch. Everyone else, not so much (unless it was an opposite field HR by a RH hitter).

    • Thanks: Pat Kittle
    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Gehrig later in his career learned how to pull cheap homers down the short rightfield line in Yankee Stadium, as did Bill Dickey around 1936, which is why they were so effective in their 30s.

    Back in his MVP 1927 season, the young Gehrig just crushed line drives, 47 of which went out of the park, but he also had 52 doubles and 18 triples. Later on he got wilier.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

  255. @Truth
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Joe Gordon didn't have 3,000 hits or 500 hr.He had 1,500 hits and a .268 batting average

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    I agree, that neither should be in the HOF. Gordon is the result of the Veterans Committee voting. When the Vets start inducting their contemporaries or former teammates, it means that they’ve run out of the most dominant fairly obvious HOF candidates and are scrapping the bottom of the barrel. As in, “Well, now who do we induct?” A brainstorm: maybe some yrs you don’t induct anyone.

    but for little more than half a decade, he was fairly dominant 2B, same as Robinson. Again, if Jackie were white, he’s not in the HOF.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Gordon and Doerr are both in the Hall of Fame.

    As a hitter, Jackie Robinson is #5 among second basemen since 1901 in career OPS+ (on-base plus slugging adjusted for league and ballpark) behind only Rogers Hornsby, Eddie Collins, Nap Lajoie, and just behind Joe Morgan. Robinson is just ahead of Rod Carew, who was a pretty good hitter.

    https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_2B.shtml

    Jackie Robinson was twice the National League's best position player among Wins Above Replacement, 4 times in top 5, and 5 times in the top 10.

    His career wasn't long due to the color line, the War, his previously focusing on other sports, and his fairly quick retirement, but he was a major force on the baseball field.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

  256. @David In TN
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    I am perfectly aware pro football was going to overtake baseball in popularity. However, it wasn't until 1972 that the Gallup Poll had football surpassing baseball as America's favorite sport. Source: The Pro Football Chronicle, 1990.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    So next yr is half a century where the National Pastime has been second fiddle to the NFL. Thanks.

  257. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Truth

    I agree, that neither should be in the HOF. Gordon is the result of the Veterans Committee voting. When the Vets start inducting their contemporaries or former teammates, it means that they've run out of the most dominant fairly obvious HOF candidates and are scrapping the bottom of the barrel. As in, "Well, now who do we induct?" A brainstorm: maybe some yrs you don't induct anyone.

    but for little more than half a decade, he was fairly dominant 2B, same as Robinson. Again, if Jackie were white, he's not in the HOF.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Gordon and Doerr are both in the Hall of Fame.

    As a hitter, Jackie Robinson is #5 among second basemen since 1901 in career OPS+ (on-base plus slugging adjusted for league and ballpark) behind only Rogers Hornsby, Eddie Collins, Nap Lajoie, and just behind Joe Morgan. Robinson is just ahead of Rod Carew, who was a pretty good hitter.

    https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_2B.shtml

    Jackie Robinson was twice the National League’s best position player among Wins Above Replacement, 4 times in top 5, and 5 times in the top 10.

    His career wasn’t long due to the color line, the War, his previously focusing on other sports, and his fairly quick retirement, but he was a major force on the baseball field.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Steve Sailer

    Yes, they both are in Cooperstown. And being consistent I don't think that they should be either. That's on the Veterans Committee. Collins has over 3k career hits, as does Carew. Hornsby 2,900+ hits, and Lajoie is close to 3k career H's as well.

    Great at WAR, except when it came to WS time, where BRK lost 5 out of 6 WS, not a very good record. So much for WAR when it counted the most in a MLB player's career, the WS.

    Will have to suggest again, that Robinson, as with his teammates, benefitted by playing in a bandbox hitters ballpark like Ebbetts Field. A hitters ballpark tends to overinflate a team's run scoring differential, but once they go to a pitcher's park, their total run output drops off considerably, as was the case with BRK in the WS. The Dodgers' run differential was real and noticeable once they had to play in Yankee Stadium. They became ordinary above average players, which was no match for the Yankees.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  258. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Pat Kittle

    Ruth, like most power HR hitters, hit the majority of his HR's in the power alleys. In Yankee Stadium during that era, the RCF power alley was about 440 FT away. The famous Left Center Field power alley, aptly named "Death Valley" was about 457 FT away, with CF being 461 FT. Think about that. The power alleys, where most HR hitters strength of their swing goes, was over 100 FT further back than what they are now. No MLB park would dare move their power alley fences 100 FT further back today. Legend has it that when Yankee Stadium opened and Ruth saw the new power alley fences, he cried. The Polo Grounds, where he had been playing for the previous 3 yrs, was a much easier ballpark to hit HRs in at least in some of the power alleys.

    Yankee Stadium was a pitcher's ballpark for a reason. No cheap HR's were hit there. The only types of hitter who could really effectively utilize the short porch of 296 FT were: 1. a RH hitter who was adept at hitting the ball to the opposite field (e.g. Bill "Moose" Skowron), or 2. Roger Maris. Maris did have a short, compact swing, unlike Ruth, DiMaggio, Gehrig, Mantle or pretty much 99% of all HR sluggers who, then as now, take big and wide swings. Maris, however, was originally a line drive hitter who had a short swing. Therefore he benefitted from the short porch. Everyone else, not so much (unless it was an opposite field HR by a RH hitter).

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Gehrig later in his career learned how to pull cheap homers down the short rightfield line in Yankee Stadium, as did Bill Dickey around 1936, which is why they were so effective in their 30s.

    Back in his MVP 1927 season, the young Gehrig just crushed line drives, 47 of which went out of the park, but he also had 52 doubles and 18 triples. Later on he got wilier.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Steve Sailer

    Yes, in other words for most of their careers, they did it the traditional way, wide big swings and tended to hit more HRs on tthe road. At least until they learned how to shorten up their swings. While DiMaggio never learned, as did most of the NY stars.

    As a switch hitter, Mantle had enormous power in both directions, so the power alleys didn't hurt him. Yogi also could hit the ball very well to the opposite field.

  259. @Steve Sailer
    @Truth

    Right. Jackie Robinson had the third highest On Base Percentage, behind only legends Rogers Hornsby and Jackie Collins.

    What the early 50s Dodgers batting line-up?

    PeeWee Reese, Jackie Robinson, Duke Snider, Roy Campanella, Gil Hodges, Carl Furillo?

    That would put some runs on the scoreboard.

    Then they put Junior Gilliam in the lead off position and he scored a lot too.

    https://www.baseball-almanac.com/hof/hofst2b.shtml

    In general, second basemen get injured a lot while turning doubleplays at second by baserunners barrelling into them with their backs turned. So they have a hard time having a long career at 100% offensive capability. Between tending to be small and getting dinged up all the time, no second baseman has ever hit 400 homers.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Oh, well, if his On Base Percentage is the third highest among 2B in the HOF, well, then it’s an obvious slam dunk. Again, no 500 HRs, no 3,000 Hs. But on base percentage, well, that settles it, goodness.

    BRK played in a bandbox of a ballpark. Ebbetts Field’s power alleys, especially compared to Yankee Stadium, were a complete joke. Doesn’t sabermetrics tend to obsess over ballparks, which ones are pitchers vs hitters, etc? BRK’s run differential was nearly a full run lower whenever they played the Yankees, and particularly when they played in Yankee Stadium. This has actually been commented on before. That’s part of the reason that from 1941 thru 1956, NY played BRK 7 times in the WS, with NY winning every one except for 1955.

    Perhaps Robinson’s vaunted On Base Percentage (as well as the rest of the BRK players) is inflated due to playing in a bandbox ballpark like Ebbetts Field.

    “Left field and left center in Yankee Stadium, that’s where the Dodgers got killed. You looked up and down the lineup, and some of those power hitters who had twenty, twenty-five home runs every season would have hit ten playing their home games in our park. They were just an ordinary club once you got them out of Brooklyn. Ebbets Field was a bandbox….If Mickey had played there his whole career, he would’ve hit 800 home runs.”–Billy Martin, from NY Sportswriter Richard Lally’s book “Bombers.”

    “The ball just flew out of Ebbetts Field. In left field or left center, you hit the ball 350 feet, it was gone. Same shot to left center in Yankee Stadium, nice easy out. Another thing, the Dodgers lineup was mostly right-handed.”–Tommy Byrne from “Bombers”

    Regarding the two clubs run differential over 6 WSf (’47-56): “In 19 games played at Yankee Stadium, the Yankees averaged 4.31 runs per game, winning fourteen while losing four. Of the 20 games held in Ebbetts Field, the Yankees won 9 for a .450 percentage…as they scored 4.75 runs per game, a home/away scoring differential of barely ten percent. Conversely, the Dodgers, averaging 4.65 runs per game, scored almost as often as the Yankees when the series was played on their home field. But in the Bronx, facing the same pitchers they hit so well in Flatbush, BRK offense withered. It could muster 2.63 runs per game, a 43 percent decline that, five times out of six, proved insurmountable.”–from Bombers.

    Yep, that on base percentage is the be all and end all. 6 WS’s and only one championship.

  260. @Steve Sailer
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Gehrig later in his career learned how to pull cheap homers down the short rightfield line in Yankee Stadium, as did Bill Dickey around 1936, which is why they were so effective in their 30s.

    Back in his MVP 1927 season, the young Gehrig just crushed line drives, 47 of which went out of the park, but he also had 52 doubles and 18 triples. Later on he got wilier.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Yes, in other words for most of their careers, they did it the traditional way, wide big swings and tended to hit more HRs on tthe road. At least until they learned how to shorten up their swings. While DiMaggio never learned, as did most of the NY stars.

    As a switch hitter, Mantle had enormous power in both directions, so the power alleys didn’t hurt him. Yogi also could hit the ball very well to the opposite field.

  261. @Steve Sailer
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Gordon and Doerr are both in the Hall of Fame.

    As a hitter, Jackie Robinson is #5 among second basemen since 1901 in career OPS+ (on-base plus slugging adjusted for league and ballpark) behind only Rogers Hornsby, Eddie Collins, Nap Lajoie, and just behind Joe Morgan. Robinson is just ahead of Rod Carew, who was a pretty good hitter.

    https://www.baseball-reference.com/leaders/jaws_2B.shtml

    Jackie Robinson was twice the National League's best position player among Wins Above Replacement, 4 times in top 5, and 5 times in the top 10.

    His career wasn't long due to the color line, the War, his previously focusing on other sports, and his fairly quick retirement, but he was a major force on the baseball field.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Yes, they both are in Cooperstown. And being consistent I don’t think that they should be either. That’s on the Veterans Committee. Collins has over 3k career hits, as does Carew. Hornsby 2,900+ hits, and Lajoie is close to 3k career H’s as well.

    Great at WAR, except when it came to WS time, where BRK lost 5 out of 6 WS, not a very good record. So much for WAR when it counted the most in a MLB player’s career, the WS.

    Will have to suggest again, that Robinson, as with his teammates, benefitted by playing in a bandbox hitters ballpark like Ebbetts Field. A hitters ballpark tends to overinflate a team’s run scoring differential, but once they go to a pitcher’s park, their total run output drops off considerably, as was the case with BRK in the WS. The Dodgers’ run differential was real and noticeable once they had to play in Yankee Stadium. They became ordinary above average players, which was no match for the Yankees.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    OPS+ adjusts for ballpark influences.

    Jackie Robinson was one of the greatest second basemen since 1930, which was around when teams emphasized defense more at 2nd base rather than putting sluggers like Hornsby there instead of at 3rd base.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

  262. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Steve Sailer

    Yes, they both are in Cooperstown. And being consistent I don't think that they should be either. That's on the Veterans Committee. Collins has over 3k career hits, as does Carew. Hornsby 2,900+ hits, and Lajoie is close to 3k career H's as well.

    Great at WAR, except when it came to WS time, where BRK lost 5 out of 6 WS, not a very good record. So much for WAR when it counted the most in a MLB player's career, the WS.

    Will have to suggest again, that Robinson, as with his teammates, benefitted by playing in a bandbox hitters ballpark like Ebbetts Field. A hitters ballpark tends to overinflate a team's run scoring differential, but once they go to a pitcher's park, their total run output drops off considerably, as was the case with BRK in the WS. The Dodgers' run differential was real and noticeable once they had to play in Yankee Stadium. They became ordinary above average players, which was no match for the Yankees.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    OPS+ adjusts for ballpark influences.

    Jackie Robinson was one of the greatest second basemen since 1930, which was around when teams emphasized defense more at 2nd base rather than putting sluggers like Hornsby there instead of at 3rd base.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Steve Sailer

    Per Robinson, I will continue to state the obvious. He is one of MLB's greatest symbols, today he is remembered for mainly one thing. MLB did not retire his jersey number for every single team in both leagues because of his OPS, Slugging, Defense, Runs Scored, etc.

    If Jackie had been white, he would not be in the HOF, period. And my point is proven. At 2B, most concede that PIT Bill Mazeroski was one of the 20th century's greatest ever fielding defensive 2B, certainly superior in the field with the glove, and his arm, than ever was Jackie Robinson. For the longest time, Mazeroski held many NL defensive fielding records that Robinson didn't come close to. And on top of that, unlike Jackie Robinson, people today recall the name Bill Mazeroski chiefly for one main on field feat: It occurred during the WS, where Maz single handedly helped directly lead his team to the WS championship vs the Yankees (something Jackie Robinson never did vs NY).

    And yet it took Mazeroski nearly 30 yrs to be inducted into the HOF. If Mazeroski had been black, he's inducted on the first ballot of eligibility. The Veterans Committee finally agreed to induct him, but only around the same time as Ted Williams' teammate, Bobby Doerr. Legend has it that Williams simply refused to vote in Mazeroski to the HOF unless Doerr was first voted in. Whether there is credence to the story I cannot tell, and yet it wouldn't be surprising as similar stories along these lines from among the Veterans Committee members used to be fairly common. Example: Behind the scenes, Yogi quietly but firmly and stubbornly pushed hard for his friend and teammate NY SS Phil Rizzuto to be inducted. It took Rizzuto about 30-35 yrs post retirement to finally be inducted into the HOF.

    More and more I am coming to the conclusion that over the decades, politics and popularity have marred the HOF induction process, perhaps this goes on with other sports HOF, after all, the human element can be quite subjective and emotional when it comes time to voting for lesser obvious choices for the HOF.

    So basically if a player waits long enough post retirement, if there is something unique about him, or he's maintained a popularity among sportswriters or kept up ties with MLB in some capacity, it is very possible, if not probable, that said player will eventually be inducted into the HOF. After all, the HOF needs to induct players from various eras (perish the thought that they would go several yrs without inducting anyone).

    If only Dave Kingman had kept up ties with MLB, his candidacy would've been voted on by now. But with the watered down quality of players being inducted, especially by the Veterans Committee, his time will come, just as it will eventually for the likes of Rusty Staub, and perhaps Al Oliver.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  263. @ScarletNumber
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi


    Willie Mays was always considered the one player who would eventually break Babe Ruth’s HR record
     
    Aaron didn't pass Mays until June 10, 1972, when he hit his 649th home run. Less than two years later, he passed the Babe.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    From age 31-34, Willie Mays averaged an incredible 47 homers per year in 1962-1965, giving him 505 after 1965. After that he declined, with subsequent peaks of 37 and 28.

    Aaron, who was 3 years younger, had 398 after 1965. But moving to Atlanta in 1966 got him into a better hitter’s park, so his output stayed very high thru 1973.

    Frank Robinson, the third great NL outfielder-slugger to come up in the 1950s, briefly moved ahead of Aaron on home runs by age after his 49-homer 1966 season. But he never hit more than 32 after age 30 and finished with 586.

    • Replies: @David In TN
    @Steve Sailer

    It's forgotten now, but for a time, Frank Robinson was considered better than Hank Aaron. It may have been Robinson's greater intensity.

    In 1963, Sport Magazine had an article, "The Managers Rate the Players." The NL managers had F. Robinson the top right fielder in the NL with Aaron second. Frank Robinson, unlike Aaron, was frequently injured. He had a down year in 1963 with a series of injuries.

    F. Robinson played in a "bandbox," Crosley Field in Cincinnati for 10 years (1956-65), hit 324 home runs (avg 32 a season), high 39. When traded to Baltimore (playing in a pitcher's park) he hit 49 (27 at home) in 1966 and won the Triple Crown.

    For the first half of the 1967 season, F. Robinson did even better than 1966. In late June he was hitting .337 with 21 homers. With the Orioles in a slump, he tried to break up a double play (a specialty of his) by going in head first and hit White Sox second baseman Al Weis' knee with his head.

    F. Robinson missed several weeks and had double vision when he came back. His average fell to .311 with 30 homers. F. Robinson was never the hitter post-1967 he was before, but still productive.

    In a Sport magazine (1972 I think) article, Frank Robinson said he came into his own as a home run hitter in 1966 and without the 1967 injury resulting in double vision, he would have challenged 714.

    Full disclosure, as a kid I was a Frank Robinson fan.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

  264. @ScarletNumber
    @Steve Sailer


    pitcher Tom House, who was on the Braves from 1971-1975
     
    Atlanta Stadium didn't have bleachers, so Henry's 715th homerun landed in the bullpen, where it was caught by Tom House.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    In the video of Aaron’s 715th homer, you can see a fan waving a big fish net on a 20 foot pole trying to snag the ball.

    For some reason, in my memory, the guy with the giant net was bon vivant writer George Plimpton.

    But that appears to be completely false.

    • Replies: @ScarletNumber
    @Steve Sailer

    In 1974 Plimpton wrote a book titled One for the Record: The Inside Story of Hank Aaron's Chase for the Home-run Record. However, this book is so obscure that it isn't listed in his Wikipedia page. The book was an expanded form of a long article for Sports Illustrated that seems to have stuck in your mind, especially these paragraphs


    There was hardly a fan who turned up in the leftfield seats for the Atlanta opener who did not firmly believe that he was going to catch the Aaron home run. Many of them brought baseball gloves. A young Atlantan from the highway department had established himself in the front row, wielding a 15-foot-long bamboo pole with a fishnet attached. He was proficient with it, sweeping it back and forth over the Braves' bullpen, though the only ball he had come close to catching with his gear had been a batting-practice home run hit into the bullpen enclosure the year before by a catcher named Freddie Velazquez. The fan missed sweeping it in by a couple of feet.
     

    "The whole thing blew my mind," House said. "The ball came right at me, just rising off the bat on a line. If I'd frozen still like a dummy, the ball would have hit me right in the middle of the forehead. Drop the ball? No way. It never occurred to me; it wouldn't to anyone who's been catching fly balls since he was a kid. The only vague problem was someone directly above me who had a fishnet on a pole; he couldn't get it operating in time.
     
    https://vault.si.com/vault/1994/04/11/final-twist-of-the-drama
  265. @David In TN
    @Steve Sailer

    The geniuses who ran baseball got the idea that there was too much hitting and scoring in 1961-62. These "purists" especially disliked Babe Ruth's record being broken by Roger Maris.

    So they enlarged the strike zone. By 1968 attendance was going down. And pro football was exploding in popularity.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi, @Steve Sailer

    That was really dumb. Some of the weird statistics of 1961-62 like Maris’s 61 homers and Tommy Davis’s 153 RBIs were due to expanding from 154 to 162 games and to expansion, which temporarily inflates statistics until the expansion teams figure out who can actually play at the major league level. The 1962 Mets were one of the worst teams ever. Within a few years, though, they were just a normal bad team.

    • Replies: @Truth
    @Steve Sailer

    The 62' Mets legacy included one of the great sports lines of all time. Marv Thorneberry, their first baseman who had seen better days, and started with the Yankees, was 6 or 7 years earlier a great prospect who was supposed to be the next Yankee legend. Never happened and now he was fat, bald and on the way out. His fielding was a particular grievance to manager Casey Stengel. The team gave Stengel a birthday party a few days after Thorneberry's brithday and a reporter asked why they did not bring a cake for Marv. Stengel answered; We were going to throw him a party but we figured he'd drop it."

  266. @Steve Sailer
    @David In TN

    That was really dumb. Some of the weird statistics of 1961-62 like Maris's 61 homers and Tommy Davis's 153 RBIs were due to expanding from 154 to 162 games and to expansion, which temporarily inflates statistics until the expansion teams figure out who can actually play at the major league level. The 1962 Mets were one of the worst teams ever. Within a few years, though, they were just a normal bad team.

    Replies: @Truth

    The 62′ Mets legacy included one of the great sports lines of all time. Marv Thorneberry, their first baseman who had seen better days, and started with the Yankees, was 6 or 7 years earlier a great prospect who was supposed to be the next Yankee legend. Never happened and now he was fat, bald and on the way out. His fielding was a particular grievance to manager Casey Stengel. The team gave Stengel a birthday party a few days after Thorneberry’s brithday and a reporter asked why they did not bring a cake for Marv. Stengel answered; We were going to throw him a party but we figured he’d drop it.”

  267. @Steve Sailer
    @ScarletNumber

    In the video of Aaron's 715th homer, you can see a fan waving a big fish net on a 20 foot pole trying to snag the ball.

    For some reason, in my memory, the guy with the giant net was bon vivant writer George Plimpton.

    But that appears to be completely false.

    Replies: @ScarletNumber

    In 1974 Plimpton wrote a book titled One for the Record: The Inside Story of Hank Aaron’s Chase for the Home-run Record. However, this book is so obscure that it isn’t listed in his Wikipedia page. The book was an expanded form of a long article for Sports Illustrated that seems to have stuck in your mind, especially these paragraphs

    There was hardly a fan who turned up in the leftfield seats for the Atlanta opener who did not firmly believe that he was going to catch the Aaron home run. Many of them brought baseball gloves. A young Atlantan from the highway department had established himself in the front row, wielding a 15-foot-long bamboo pole with a fishnet attached. He was proficient with it, sweeping it back and forth over the Braves’ bullpen, though the only ball he had come close to catching with his gear had been a batting-practice home run hit into the bullpen enclosure the year before by a catcher named Freddie Velazquez. The fan missed sweeping it in by a couple of feet.

    “The whole thing blew my mind,” House said. “The ball came right at me, just rising off the bat on a line. If I’d frozen still like a dummy, the ball would have hit me right in the middle of the forehead. Drop the ball? No way. It never occurred to me; it wouldn’t to anyone who’s been catching fly balls since he was a kid. The only vague problem was someone directly above me who had a fishnet on a pole; he couldn’t get it operating in time.

    https://vault.si.com/vault/1994/04/11/final-twist-of-the-drama

  268. @Steve Sailer
    @ScarletNumber

    From age 31-34, Willie Mays averaged an incredible 47 homers per year in 1962-1965, giving him 505 after 1965. After that he declined, with subsequent peaks of 37 and 28.

    Aaron, who was 3 years younger, had 398 after 1965. But moving to Atlanta in 1966 got him into a better hitter's park, so his output stayed very high thru 1973.

    Frank Robinson, the third great NL outfielder-slugger to come up in the 1950s, briefly moved ahead of Aaron on home runs by age after his 49-homer 1966 season. But he never hit more than 32 after age 30 and finished with 586.

    Replies: @David In TN

    It’s forgotten now, but for a time, Frank Robinson was considered better than Hank Aaron. It may have been Robinson’s greater intensity.

    In 1963, Sport Magazine had an article, “The Managers Rate the Players.” The NL managers had F. Robinson the top right fielder in the NL with Aaron second. Frank Robinson, unlike Aaron, was frequently injured. He had a down year in 1963 with a series of injuries.

    F. Robinson played in a “bandbox,” Crosley Field in Cincinnati for 10 years (1956-65), hit 324 home runs (avg 32 a season), high 39. When traded to Baltimore (playing in a pitcher’s park) he hit 49 (27 at home) in 1966 and won the Triple Crown.

    For the first half of the 1967 season, F. Robinson did even better than 1966. In late June he was hitting .337 with 21 homers. With the Orioles in a slump, he tried to break up a double play (a specialty of his) by going in head first and hit White Sox second baseman Al Weis’ knee with his head.

    F. Robinson missed several weeks and had double vision when he came back. His average fell to .311 with 30 homers. F. Robinson was never the hitter post-1967 he was before, but still productive.

    In a Sport magazine (1972 I think) article, Frank Robinson said he came into his own as a home run hitter in 1966 and without the 1967 injury resulting in double vision, he would have challenged 714.

    Full disclosure, as a kid I was a Frank Robinson fan.

    • Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @David In TN

    That's amazing, most contemporary sportswriters tended to rate PIT RF Roberto Clemente as the most dominant best NL RF of the 50's and 60's.

    Replies: @David In TN

  269. @Steve Sailer
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    OPS+ adjusts for ballpark influences.

    Jackie Robinson was one of the greatest second basemen since 1930, which was around when teams emphasized defense more at 2nd base rather than putting sluggers like Hornsby there instead of at 3rd base.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Per Robinson, I will continue to state the obvious. He is one of MLB’s greatest symbols, today he is remembered for mainly one thing. MLB did not retire his jersey number for every single team in both leagues because of his OPS, Slugging, Defense, Runs Scored, etc.

    If Jackie had been white, he would not be in the HOF, period. And my point is proven. At 2B, most concede that PIT Bill Mazeroski was one of the 20th century’s greatest ever fielding defensive 2B, certainly superior in the field with the glove, and his arm, than ever was Jackie Robinson. For the longest time, Mazeroski held many NL defensive fielding records that Robinson didn’t come close to. And on top of that, unlike Jackie Robinson, people today recall the name Bill Mazeroski chiefly for one main on field feat: It occurred during the WS, where Maz single handedly helped directly lead his team to the WS championship vs the Yankees (something Jackie Robinson never did vs NY).

    And yet it took Mazeroski nearly 30 yrs to be inducted into the HOF. If Mazeroski had been black, he’s inducted on the first ballot of eligibility. The Veterans Committee finally agreed to induct him, but only around the same time as Ted Williams’ teammate, Bobby Doerr. Legend has it that Williams simply refused to vote in Mazeroski to the HOF unless Doerr was first voted in. Whether there is credence to the story I cannot tell, and yet it wouldn’t be surprising as similar stories along these lines from among the Veterans Committee members used to be fairly common. Example: Behind the scenes, Yogi quietly but firmly and stubbornly pushed hard for his friend and teammate NY SS Phil Rizzuto to be inducted. It took Rizzuto about 30-35 yrs post retirement to finally be inducted into the HOF.

    More and more I am coming to the conclusion that over the decades, politics and popularity have marred the HOF induction process, perhaps this goes on with other sports HOF, after all, the human element can be quite subjective and emotional when it comes time to voting for lesser obvious choices for the HOF.

    So basically if a player waits long enough post retirement, if there is something unique about him, or he’s maintained a popularity among sportswriters or kept up ties with MLB in some capacity, it is very possible, if not probable, that said player will eventually be inducted into the HOF. After all, the HOF needs to induct players from various eras (perish the thought that they would go several yrs without inducting anyone).

    If only Dave Kingman had kept up ties with MLB, his candidacy would’ve been voted on by now. But with the watered down quality of players being inducted, especially by the Veterans Committee, his time will come, just as it will eventually for the likes of Rusty Staub, and perhaps Al Oliver.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Mazeroski had a career batting average of .260, Robinson .311. They had similar home run power. Robinson got vastly more walks, stole far more bases, and scored vastly more runs.

  270. @David In TN
    @Steve Sailer

    It's forgotten now, but for a time, Frank Robinson was considered better than Hank Aaron. It may have been Robinson's greater intensity.

    In 1963, Sport Magazine had an article, "The Managers Rate the Players." The NL managers had F. Robinson the top right fielder in the NL with Aaron second. Frank Robinson, unlike Aaron, was frequently injured. He had a down year in 1963 with a series of injuries.

    F. Robinson played in a "bandbox," Crosley Field in Cincinnati for 10 years (1956-65), hit 324 home runs (avg 32 a season), high 39. When traded to Baltimore (playing in a pitcher's park) he hit 49 (27 at home) in 1966 and won the Triple Crown.

    For the first half of the 1967 season, F. Robinson did even better than 1966. In late June he was hitting .337 with 21 homers. With the Orioles in a slump, he tried to break up a double play (a specialty of his) by going in head first and hit White Sox second baseman Al Weis' knee with his head.

    F. Robinson missed several weeks and had double vision when he came back. His average fell to .311 with 30 homers. F. Robinson was never the hitter post-1967 he was before, but still productive.

    In a Sport magazine (1972 I think) article, Frank Robinson said he came into his own as a home run hitter in 1966 and without the 1967 injury resulting in double vision, he would have challenged 714.

    Full disclosure, as a kid I was a Frank Robinson fan.

    Replies: @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    That’s amazing, most contemporary sportswriters tended to rate PIT RF Roberto Clemente as the most dominant best NL RF of the 50’s and 60’s.

    • Replies: @David In TN
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Clemente, like Jackie Robinson, becomes a greater player the more his playing days recede into the past. Don't get me wrong, Clemente WAS a great player. And Jackie Robinson belonged in the HOF for his playing ability.

    I saw Roberto Clemente play in person in 1968 in Cincinnati. In batting practice, he swung six-seven times. Each time he sent the ball far over the left field fence. FAR over the fence. Once, Clemente caught a fly ball in medium-deep right field with a runner on third, less than two out. Clemente threw a perfect strike to home plate. The runner didn't even try to score.

    Bill Mazeroski made several good plays at second base. He was something to see turning a double play.

    On the other hand, Clemente had a reputation (deserved or not) for not always coming to the park wanting to play. He didn't hit as many home runs and produce as many runs as Aaron or Frank Robinson at his best.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

  271. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Steve Sailer

    Per Robinson, I will continue to state the obvious. He is one of MLB's greatest symbols, today he is remembered for mainly one thing. MLB did not retire his jersey number for every single team in both leagues because of his OPS, Slugging, Defense, Runs Scored, etc.

    If Jackie had been white, he would not be in the HOF, period. And my point is proven. At 2B, most concede that PIT Bill Mazeroski was one of the 20th century's greatest ever fielding defensive 2B, certainly superior in the field with the glove, and his arm, than ever was Jackie Robinson. For the longest time, Mazeroski held many NL defensive fielding records that Robinson didn't come close to. And on top of that, unlike Jackie Robinson, people today recall the name Bill Mazeroski chiefly for one main on field feat: It occurred during the WS, where Maz single handedly helped directly lead his team to the WS championship vs the Yankees (something Jackie Robinson never did vs NY).

    And yet it took Mazeroski nearly 30 yrs to be inducted into the HOF. If Mazeroski had been black, he's inducted on the first ballot of eligibility. The Veterans Committee finally agreed to induct him, but only around the same time as Ted Williams' teammate, Bobby Doerr. Legend has it that Williams simply refused to vote in Mazeroski to the HOF unless Doerr was first voted in. Whether there is credence to the story I cannot tell, and yet it wouldn't be surprising as similar stories along these lines from among the Veterans Committee members used to be fairly common. Example: Behind the scenes, Yogi quietly but firmly and stubbornly pushed hard for his friend and teammate NY SS Phil Rizzuto to be inducted. It took Rizzuto about 30-35 yrs post retirement to finally be inducted into the HOF.

    More and more I am coming to the conclusion that over the decades, politics and popularity have marred the HOF induction process, perhaps this goes on with other sports HOF, after all, the human element can be quite subjective and emotional when it comes time to voting for lesser obvious choices for the HOF.

    So basically if a player waits long enough post retirement, if there is something unique about him, or he's maintained a popularity among sportswriters or kept up ties with MLB in some capacity, it is very possible, if not probable, that said player will eventually be inducted into the HOF. After all, the HOF needs to induct players from various eras (perish the thought that they would go several yrs without inducting anyone).

    If only Dave Kingman had kept up ties with MLB, his candidacy would've been voted on by now. But with the watered down quality of players being inducted, especially by the Veterans Committee, his time will come, just as it will eventually for the likes of Rusty Staub, and perhaps Al Oliver.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Mazeroski had a career batting average of .260, Robinson .311. They had similar home run power. Robinson got vastly more walks, stole far more bases, and scored vastly more runs.

  272. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @David In TN

    That's amazing, most contemporary sportswriters tended to rate PIT RF Roberto Clemente as the most dominant best NL RF of the 50's and 60's.

    Replies: @David In TN

    Clemente, like Jackie Robinson, becomes a greater player the more his playing days recede into the past. Don’t get me wrong, Clemente WAS a great player. And Jackie Robinson belonged in the HOF for his playing ability.

    I saw Roberto Clemente play in person in 1968 in Cincinnati. In batting practice, he swung six-seven times. Each time he sent the ball far over the left field fence. FAR over the fence. Once, Clemente caught a fly ball in medium-deep right field with a runner on third, less than two out. Clemente threw a perfect strike to home plate. The runner didn’t even try to score.

    Bill Mazeroski made several good plays at second base. He was something to see turning a double play.

    On the other hand, Clemente had a reputation (deserved or not) for not always coming to the park wanting to play. He didn’t hit as many home runs and produce as many runs as Aaron or Frank Robinson at his best.

    • Replies: @Steve Sailer
    @David In TN

    Clemente died a hero, in a plane crash on New Year's Eve bringing relief supplies to earthquake victims in Nicaragua. I don't think anybody else in the Hall of Fame went out that way. He had gotten his 3000th hit in his last at-bat of what turned out to be his last season. It sounds like a contrived screenplay but it really happened.

    Hard to say what he would have done if he'd lived. It's not impossible he could have gotten to 4000 hits if he'd played until, say, 44 as a DH in the AL.

    It took him a long time in the big leagues to become a great hitter. Because he was perhaps the best defensive rightfielder ever, he was a regular for the Pirates at age 20, but he didn't start to become an above average hitter until his 6th season and then he went on and on, averaging .339 in his last 4 seasons.

    He was a little hypochondriacal, so he'd seldom play a long stretch of games in a row, but he evidently knew when he needed a day off judging by his stratospheric batting averages in his 30s.

    Clemente was a line drive hitter in the Ty Cobb mode rather than a home run hitter like the NL's big 3 of Mays, Aaron, and F. Robinson.

    Replies: @Ganderson

  273. @David In TN
    @Yojimbo/Zatoichi

    Clemente, like Jackie Robinson, becomes a greater player the more his playing days recede into the past. Don't get me wrong, Clemente WAS a great player. And Jackie Robinson belonged in the HOF for his playing ability.

    I saw Roberto Clemente play in person in 1968 in Cincinnati. In batting practice, he swung six-seven times. Each time he sent the ball far over the left field fence. FAR over the fence. Once, Clemente caught a fly ball in medium-deep right field with a runner on third, less than two out. Clemente threw a perfect strike to home plate. The runner didn't even try to score.

    Bill Mazeroski made several good plays at second base. He was something to see turning a double play.

    On the other hand, Clemente had a reputation (deserved or not) for not always coming to the park wanting to play. He didn't hit as many home runs and produce as many runs as Aaron or Frank Robinson at his best.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer

    Clemente died a hero, in a plane crash on New Year’s Eve bringing relief supplies to earthquake victims in Nicaragua. I don’t think anybody else in the Hall of Fame went out that way. He had gotten his 3000th hit in his last at-bat of what turned out to be his last season. It sounds like a contrived screenplay but it really happened.

    Hard to say what he would have done if he’d lived. It’s not impossible he could have gotten to 4000 hits if he’d played until, say, 44 as a DH in the AL.

    It took him a long time in the big leagues to become a great hitter. Because he was perhaps the best defensive rightfielder ever, he was a regular for the Pirates at age 20, but he didn’t start to become an above average hitter until his 6th season and then he went on and on, averaging .339 in his last 4 seasons.

    He was a little hypochondriacal, so he’d seldom play a long stretch of games in a row, but he evidently knew when he needed a day off judging by his stratospheric batting averages in his 30s.

    Clemente was a line drive hitter in the Ty Cobb mode rather than a home run hitter like the NL’s big 3 of Mays, Aaron, and F. Robinson.

    • Replies: @Ganderson
    @Steve Sailer

    Like Tony Oliva, only better. Tony’s a marginal HOFer- injuries were what kept him out. A fine player, though. One of his last years he hit .270 on one leg...

    I grew up in an AL city, so never saw Clemente nor Aaron play in person- no one, while they were active, didn’t consider them elite players.

    Thanks for this thread. It keeps my mind off the horribleness all around me.

  274. @Yojimbo/Zatoichi
    @Ganderson

    And that is total bullshit. Every name within the VIP room can be equally compared as the greatest of the greatest ever to play the game during their eras.


    "at least part of the issue for Santo is his position, and the number of third basemen in the Hall."

    So instead of inducting the true HOFers, the greatest ever to play the game, then the measure is 'well, we don't have enough HOFers at certain positions so we have to meet a quota." Is meeting a quota because of a "lack" of great players at certain positions what the concept of the HOF is about?

    Come on. It doesn't matter how many 2B, 3B, SS, are in the HOF, so long as the right ones are in.

    George Brett, Brooks Robinson, Mike Schmidt were 3B, and were inducted on first ballot. If we never induct another 3B, so what, who cares? The point is that the right ones are in.



    "And, I don’t think the standard is ,” is he as good as Willie Mays” . "

    Absolutely it definitely is. That's the very definition of greatness, do all the names go together? Can they be compared to each other in the sense that they all were dominant during the time they played? Are they so great that the difference between them and the second player is night and day? The question is: Do all the names go together? Willie Mays, Babe Ruth, Hank Aaron, Ted Williams, Lou Gehrig, Hank Aaron, for example. Do all these names go together? Absolutely. You don't even have to think, let alone pause. There's no question about it. And it also didn't take them decades to get in. There was no question about it. They're not in the HOF because a quota at a position had to be met, like in Ron Santo's case. More I think about it, Ron Santo really doesn't belong in the HOF. Not to single him alone, he is merely representative of what's wrong with the concept of the HOF.

    "Then you have no one, or maybe one player every five years go in."

    No, then you have the right people inducted. This isn't supposed to be a popularity contest, a political (in the sense that a player played in a bigger market and thus has MLB media connections to help his cause of getting in).

    It also isn't supposed to be a quota system a la "Well, we have to inducted more position players because there has to be balance, and we want to be fair." So being fair now decides who gets in.

    "To use an example I’ve used often, no one would suggest that (well, perhaps you would) Harmon Killebrew was not Cooperstown material. Was he as good as Mantle, Mays, Aaron, etc.? Of course not- he’s still a Hall of Famer."


    Actually I disagree. Killebrew was more than dominant. He has 573 HR's back when 500 HRs was a very big deal. And I can definitely put Harmon Killebrew in the same sentence as Mantle, Mays, etc. Harmon Killebrew has more career HR's and RBI's than Mickey Mantle. In other words, each HOFer can be compared as belonging to the exclusive greatest of the great.

    I can definitely say that Killebrew is an obvious HOFer, but I can't say that about Ron Santo, much less Jim Rice. If Santo was all that, he would've been inducted his first yr of eligibility as it would've been obvious. Notice that Santo's teammate Ernie Banks didn't wait decades to get inducted. Because it was obvious that Ernie belongs in the HOF. Your stats don't suddenly improve the longer you've been retired.

    I also agree with the point about the Veterans Committee inducting their pals, and that's an abuse of the system.

    See, the first few yrs of the HOF, they actually inducted the right people:

    Ruth, Cobb, Wagner, Speaker, Johnson, Lajoie, Alexander, Young, etc. They got it right. What they probably should've been aware of, is that the founding inductees of the HOF were indeed the greatest of the greatest. But because its an annual thing, the voting process, etc. MLB decided it had to pad the hall and induct and honor more than just the obvious choices. But that's precisely what a HOF is for: To honor the greatest of the greatest.

    It's like, they forgot that for a HOF to be truly exclusive, then there will be years where no one is inducted, because there are few players that belong in the exclusive VIP room. Because the HOF is also a money making thing as well as promoting the gospel of MLB in general, the HOF didn't really want to only induct the truly deserving players. So they padded it out and it's become what it currently is: Politics and Popularity, as well as meeting quotas for various reasons. So a HOFer is now whatever the current mood is.

    Replies: @Steve Sailer, @Ganderson, @Ganderson

    My goof- Leo’s in as a manager. I was thinking of Phil Rizutto. Creeping Bidenisn. Yojimbo- you have an opinion about Schilling?

  275. @Steve Sailer
    @David In TN

    Clemente died a hero, in a plane crash on New Year's Eve bringing relief supplies to earthquake victims in Nicaragua. I don't think anybody else in the Hall of Fame went out that way. He had gotten his 3000th hit in his last at-bat of what turned out to be his last season. It sounds like a contrived screenplay but it really happened.

    Hard to say what he would have done if he'd lived. It's not impossible he could have gotten to 4000 hits if he'd played until, say, 44 as a DH in the AL.

    It took him a long time in the big leagues to become a great hitter. Because he was perhaps the best defensive rightfielder ever, he was a regular for the Pirates at age 20, but he didn't start to become an above average hitter until his 6th season and then he went on and on, averaging .339 in his last 4 seasons.

    He was a little hypochondriacal, so he'd seldom play a long stretch of games in a row, but he evidently knew when he needed a day off judging by his stratospheric batting averages in his 30s.

    Clemente was a line drive hitter in the Ty Cobb mode rather than a home run hitter like the NL's big 3 of Mays, Aaron, and F. Robinson.

    Replies: @Ganderson

    Like Tony Oliva, only better. Tony’s a marginal HOFer- injuries were what kept him out. A fine player, though. One of his last years he hit .270 on one leg…

    I grew up in an AL city, so never saw Clemente nor Aaron play in person- no one, while they were active, didn’t consider them elite players.

    Thanks for this thread. It keeps my mind off the horribleness all around me.

  276. @anon
    Hard to guess Mantle's loss.

    Clipper Joe caused Mantle's knee/hip injury that was a career plague.

    Mel Allen recommended a quack dr who negatively impacted the later years.

    Mantle, potentially the greatest of all.

    Replies: @Ganderson

    Bill James in one of his books (Historical Abstract?) did a Mantle-Mays comparison, his conclusion was that Mantle wins on peak value, Mays on career value. Seems about right to me.

Comments are closed.

Subscribe to All Steve Sailer Comments via RSS