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The weak should fear the strong.

***

* Richard Hanania had a podcast with Sean McMeekin about his new book. (I made some comments on that post).

Incidentally, I have started reading Stalin’s War. Not far in, but my initial impressions are that McMeekin is weak on military realism – he seems to think that Allied Lend-Lease that went to the USSR would have instead translated into the Anglo-Americans freeing the Polish death camps had those resources been devoted to their own war effort instead.

On another note, @devarbol does point out that McMeekin performs a useful service in highlighting that American elite anti-Communism only began after WW2.

* Claire Lehmann and James Lindsay had a Twitter spat over white genocide. My brief Twitter takes here. (Spoiler: Talk of white genocide misses the point).

* Paul Robinson on Ukraine’s Bidensliv.

* Large new IPSOS survey of LGBT attitudes internationally. Summary. Interestingly, if not entirely surprisingly, India has the highest percentage of people who identify as non-heterosexual.

* Adam Tooze on Vasily Grossman.

* @Nemets speculates that 20C leftist aesthetics would have looked radically different if not for the Latvians.

* French smart fraction performance in math has plummeted over the past generation. You’d better hope we get to AGI and/or genetic editing for IQ sooner rather than later, or we’re not having much fun the next few centuries.

* Trump: Time to go back to McDonald’s, anon.

 
• Tags: Blogging, Cats, Open Thread 
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  1. This is the current Open Thread, where anything goes – within reason.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

    Commenting rules. Please note that anonymous comments are not allowed.

  2. French smart fraction performance in math has plummeted over the past generation. You’d better hope we get to AGI and/or genetic editing for IQ sooner rather than later, or we’re not having much fun the next few centuries.

    In the US, this would have a fairly simple explanation: Very smart kids — if their parents are also smart — no longer go to state-run schools, or even typical private schools that teach the state’s curriculum, so they are in no position to take those tests.

    In France, I don’t think that this is the case. The more likely explanation is the dumbing-down of the curriculum itself. That is, the smart kids are not being taught what they need to know to attain a high score.

    Of course, France’s demographics have gone to utter shit over the past 30 years. I was in Paris in 2018 and happened to see a French elementary school trip to the Louvre. There might have been two white kids. The other eighteen were black or Arab. No surprise, then, that French test scores look like Morocco’s.

    • Agree: UNIT472, LondonBob
    • Replies: @angmoh
    @Malenfant

    Agree that this result is likely something to do with curriculum or a measurement artefact. I'd lean to the latter - smart kids do pretty well regardless of what teaching fad predominates.

    My assumption is assortative mating is a real phenomenon and that high-end performance will prove relatively resilient regardless of immigration trends for a while yet.


    Australia has one of the more eugenic immigration policies in the world and has still experienced a drop in PISA results across the board over the past few decades too. Smells like something other than raw ability changing.

    Replies: @Pericles, @Stebbing Heuer

  3. Climate- The Western US is in a severe drought. Tree ring studies ( and California has tree rings that go back to when Julius Caesar ruled) show these are episodic but can last for a century or more. It also happens that Brazil is experiencing a severe drought. Good news for Florida orange growers I suppose but not for many others especially Las Vegas.

    Nevada was known for earlier Boom turned to Bust turned to Ghost Towns but never anything the size of a Las Vegas but if the Colorado river turns into the Colorado creek or a dry river bed in the coming years Las Vegas can’t continue to exist. There is no other water source that can sustain a city of 2 million people plus the tourists.

    It may not be ‘rising sea levels’ that are the problem but falling ground water levels that are devastating.

    • Thanks: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @Svevlad
    @UNIT472

    Good, building cities that big in a desert with notoriously unreliable water supply is stupid

    , @GMC
    @UNIT472

    During the Alaskan pipelines years there was Governor Wally Hickel, who was always thinking of things that the northern areas had but some in the lower 48 didn't. He proposed a water pipeline heading south to California several times and was laughed off the stage by the Feds. He said Canada could join in and add some to the pipeline. , since he saw a shortage coming , back in the 70s. The USG has been so dysfunctional when it comes to avoiding future problems, that even that town Flint Mich has no decent water , and it's been a decade. It's not the US Gov and never was - it was always the NWO scam. Every Fed government employee, in it for themselves.

    , @Boomthorkell
    @UNIT472

    I strongly believe the US, federally and locally, should strictly regulate water use and population in the South Western states. It is insane, driving through Utah, seeing golf courses rising out of the pink dust. That the Colorado river now doesn't make it to the Gulf of Mexico is criminal overuseage and wastage.

    Is this finally affecting Vegas?

  4. Light Humor to start the Open Thread:

     

     

    And, Trans Am racing from Lime Rock:

    PEACE 😇

  5. Are Europe and Russia are incompatible? Have a say on it.

    European Parliament threatening sanctions on Russia over Belarus.

    Less and less Russians see themselves as european.

    https://www.rt.com/russia/519115-european-identity-collapsing-youth/

    • Replies: @A123
    @Passer by


    Are Europe and Russia are incompatible? Have a say on it.

     

    There is a problematic assumption built into your question. Europe is composed of two incompatible factions:
        • Christian Populist nations, such as Hungary & Poland
        • SJW Islamic Globalist nations, lead by Germany

    Christian Europe and Christian Russian are largely compatible. Getting past some of the history between the USSR and Poland would be worthwhile, but not easy.

    SJW Germany and its "woke" client states oppose traditional Christian values. Thus, Germany and Christian Russia are 100% incompatible.

    European Parliament threatening sanctions on Russia over Belarus.
     
    Christian Poland has a land border with Belarus and physically separates the Baltic nations from the rest of the EU. Russia should cultivate Poland's cooperation (or at least neutrality) to foil the aggressive Merkel/Laschet push for EU annexation of Belarus.

    Why is Putin rewarding Merkel/Laschet with NordStream 2 while Germany's vassal, the EU Parliament, is threatening sanctions? Is there some bit of KGB deviousness that is not yet apparent?

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon, @Rbze, @Thorfinnsson

    , @Daniel Chieh
    @Passer by


    Less and less Russians see themselves as european.
     
    Fewer! Russians are a countable entity!

    ...I think.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  6. French smart fraction performance in math has plummeted over the past generation.

    According to PIAAC, France gets one of the worst migrants in Europe.

  7. Two things I want to mention.

    Apparently the drought in the Western U.S is getting worse. https://www.reuters.com/world/us/hoover-dam-reservoir-hits-record-low-sign-extreme-western-us-drought-2021-06-10/ What are the geopolitical implications of this?

    Second, it seems like the poor and middle class will be forced to deal with inflation. The only real anti-inflation asset I see out there is real estate. Precious metal isn’t doing bad but not great. Now that I think of it stocks are a pretty anti-inflationary, but alternative news website readers have a doomer bias and think they will come crashing down soon. The upper classes can avoid inflation because they can afford real estate. The real estate question ties back into the drought question, what happens when overpriced real estate becomes worthless because there is no water. But droughts come and go.

    Honestly the best anti-inflation asset might be potable water, or better yet stock in companies that have purification or desalination technology.

    I was about to throw out there as food for thought the idea of the U.S invading Mexico, but in a non-military way, NGO, protests, referenda etc. But then I remembered Mexico also has water issues in its northern regions. So invasion for water would be ridiculous. Canada might be a better target, but that would probably just be some water treaty.

    Third subject, I almost forgot. According to science elevated CO2 makes us dumber https://archive.thinkprogress.org/exclusive-elevated-co2-levels-directly-affect-human-cognition-new-harvard-study-shows-2748e7378941/ buy houseplants people!

    • Replies: @Yellowface Anon
    @Anyone with a brain


    The only real anti-inflation asset I see out there is real estate. Precious metal isn’t doing bad but not great. Now that I think of it stocks are a pretty anti-inflationary, but alternative news website readers have a doomer bias and think they will come crashing down soon. The upper classes can avoid inflation because they can afford real estate. The real estate question ties back into the drought question, what happens when overpriced real estate becomes worthless because there is no water. But droughts come and go.

    Honestly the best anti-inflation asset might be potable water, or better yet stock in companies that have purification or desalination technology.
     

    Stocks are anti-inflationary? Only when the Fed wants them to be. Otherwise, after the crash, their core businesses will be nearly wiped out by plummeting purchasing power.

    A lot more things that are productive on an individual level (tools) or barter goods are also anti-inflationary on lesser level. It depends on what anyone want to do during the episode of high inflation, and after that.


    According to science elevated CO2 makes us dumber
     
    Dumber but better for plant-growing. It isn't as innocuous and there has to be trade-offs (even when a persistent trend in global warming is conclusively disproven)

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    , @LondonBob
    @Anyone with a brain

    Equities perform poorly in high inflation, better than most things but they aren't good. Margins get destroyed and disposable income goes on the necessities, only commodities and gold do well, the 1970s was a long and brutal bear market for US equities.

    Replies: @The Big Red Scary, @Thorfinnsson

  8. A123 says: • Website
    @Passer by
    Are Europe and Russia are incompatible? Have a say on it.

    European Parliament threatening sanctions on Russia over Belarus.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwpkIO2GkgE&feature=emb_title

    Less and less Russians see themselves as european.

    https://www.rt.com/russia/519115-european-identity-collapsing-youth/

    Replies: @A123, @Daniel Chieh

    Are Europe and Russia are incompatible? Have a say on it.

    There is a problematic assumption built into your question. Europe is composed of two incompatible factions:
        • Christian Populist nations, such as Hungary & Poland
        • SJW Islamic Globalist nations, lead by Germany

    Christian Europe and Christian Russian are largely compatible. Getting past some of the history between the USSR and Poland would be worthwhile, but not easy.

    SJW Germany and its “woke” client states oppose traditional Christian values. Thus, Germany and Christian Russia are 100% incompatible.

    European Parliament threatening sanctions on Russia over Belarus.

    Christian Poland has a land border with Belarus and physically separates the Baltic nations from the rest of the EU. Russia should cultivate Poland’s cooperation (or at least neutrality) to foil the aggressive Merkel/Laschet push for EU annexation of Belarus.

    Why is Putin rewarding Merkel/Laschet with NordStream 2 while Germany’s vassal, the EU Parliament, is threatening sanctions? Is there some bit of KGB deviousness that is not yet apparent?

    PEACE 😇

    • Replies: @Yellowface Anon
    @A123


    • SJW Islamic Globalist nations, lead by Germany
     
    You actually don't realize the existence of a third, anti-state faction in those globalist states, whether diminishingly small or rapidly increasing.
    , @Rbze
    @A123

    Poles are belligerent low IQ retards and would never do anything that's in their best interests. And neither Poland or Hungary are "christian populist." They are both just stupid degenerate American puppet states. Something like 20% of Hungarian women are pornstars or prostitutes and Poland has the one of the lowest fertility rate in the world.

    , @Thorfinnsson
    @A123



    Why is Putin rewarding Merkel/Laschet with NordStream 2 while Germany’s vassal, the EU Parliament, is threatening sanctions? Is there some bit of KGB deviousness that is not yet apparent?
     
    Let me make this as simple as possible for everyone:

    https://feastoffun.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/scrooge_mcduck.jpeg

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @A123

  9. @Malenfant

    French smart fraction performance in math has plummeted over the past generation. You’d better hope we get to AGI and/or genetic editing for IQ sooner rather than later, or we’re not having much fun the next few centuries.

     

    In the US, this would have a fairly simple explanation: Very smart kids -- if their parents are also smart -- no longer go to state-run schools, or even typical private schools that teach the state's curriculum, so they are in no position to take those tests.

    In France, I don't think that this is the case. The more likely explanation is the dumbing-down of the curriculum itself. That is, the smart kids are not being taught what they need to know to attain a high score.

    Of course, France's demographics have gone to utter shit over the past 30 years. I was in Paris in 2018 and happened to see a French elementary school trip to the Louvre. There might have been two white kids. The other eighteen were black or Arab. No surprise, then, that French test scores look like Morocco's.

    Replies: @angmoh

    Agree that this result is likely something to do with curriculum or a measurement artefact. I’d lean to the latter – smart kids do pretty well regardless of what teaching fad predominates.

    My assumption is assortative mating is a real phenomenon and that high-end performance will prove relatively resilient regardless of immigration trends for a while yet.

    Australia has one of the more eugenic immigration policies in the world and has still experienced a drop in PISA results across the board over the past few decades too. Smells like something other than raw ability changing.

    • Replies: @Pericles
    @angmoh

    I think assortative mating is primarily driven by educational institutions herding together the smart people when they are about to do family formation. Let me add 'at scale'. They do it at scale rather than the amateurish versions of country clubs or whatever.

    If so, then perhaps it's a passing fad. E.g., if universities add too many strange and/or sub-par animals to their herds then the assortative mating will become assortative in other directions than, say, intelligence or talent.

    Regarding PISA, revealed in mid-2020 but I hadn't noticed until now: it turns out the improved PISA 2018 results for Sweden were founded on sorting away the 11% of students who didn't know sufficient Swedish, after at least one year of study, including foreigners from various odd countries but also some born in Sweden. (The permitted limit is apparently 5%.)

    At least one school motivated this with they 'wanted to focus on what is best for the student'. Lol, yes, education is primarily about the emotions experienced by those in the classroom.

    A couple of links (in Swedish):
    https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/qs/sveriges-pisa-framgang-bygger-pa-falska-siffror/
    https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/Ga9d24/sa-kom-sveriges-pisa-resultat-i-snalblasten

    Replies: @angmoh

    , @Stebbing Heuer
    @angmoh

    In Australia I think it is a case of the teachers being dumber than the students, and dumbing down the curriculum to a level they can cope with but which bores the bright kids, so the kids tune out. They could get some old textbooks or search online for excellent materials and educate themselves in their spare time but it's more fun playing video games.

    And yes we have worked out an effective way to identify and attract clever, hard-working, high-achieving people. Quality of life is suffering because rent-seeking has made everything so bloody expensive but the clever migrants from developing countries don't seem to mind and adapt better than the 'legacy' locals - social Darwinism in action.

  10. • Replies: @Yellowface Anon
    @Blinky Bill

    Cue HK oppositionists demanding US troops to invade and liberate the territory after ramping up the sanctions on China, possibly up to a trade embargo, after sending all their money offshore and even moving to Pacificist bloc countries.

    (US stopped treating HK as having separate political and economic status so it will hit HK too)

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon, @Blinky Bill

  11. @Anyone with a brain
    Two things I want to mention.

    Apparently the drought in the Western U.S is getting worse. https://www.reuters.com/world/us/hoover-dam-reservoir-hits-record-low-sign-extreme-western-us-drought-2021-06-10/ What are the geopolitical implications of this?

    Second, it seems like the poor and middle class will be forced to deal with inflation. The only real anti-inflation asset I see out there is real estate. Precious metal isn't doing bad but not great. Now that I think of it stocks are a pretty anti-inflationary, but alternative news website readers have a doomer bias and think they will come crashing down soon. The upper classes can avoid inflation because they can afford real estate. The real estate question ties back into the drought question, what happens when overpriced real estate becomes worthless because there is no water. But droughts come and go.

    Honestly the best anti-inflation asset might be potable water, or better yet stock in companies that have purification or desalination technology.

    I was about to throw out there as food for thought the idea of the U.S invading Mexico, but in a non-military way, NGO, protests, referenda etc. But then I remembered Mexico also has water issues in its northern regions. So invasion for water would be ridiculous. Canada might be a better target, but that would probably just be some water treaty.

    Third subject, I almost forgot. According to science elevated CO2 makes us dumber https://archive.thinkprogress.org/exclusive-elevated-co2-levels-directly-affect-human-cognition-new-harvard-study-shows-2748e7378941/ buy houseplants people!

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon, @LondonBob

    The only real anti-inflation asset I see out there is real estate. Precious metal isn’t doing bad but not great. Now that I think of it stocks are a pretty anti-inflationary, but alternative news website readers have a doomer bias and think they will come crashing down soon. The upper classes can avoid inflation because they can afford real estate. The real estate question ties back into the drought question, what happens when overpriced real estate becomes worthless because there is no water. But droughts come and go.

    Honestly the best anti-inflation asset might be potable water, or better yet stock in companies that have purification or desalination technology.

    Stocks are anti-inflationary? Only when the Fed wants them to be. Otherwise, after the crash, their core businesses will be nearly wiped out by plummeting purchasing power.

    A lot more things that are productive on an individual level (tools) or barter goods are also anti-inflationary on lesser level. It depends on what anyone want to do during the episode of high inflation, and after that.

    According to science elevated CO2 makes us dumber

    Dumber but better for plant-growing. It isn’t as innocuous and there has to be trade-offs (even when a persistent trend in global warming is conclusively disproven)

    • Agree: LondonBob
    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @Yellowface Anon



    Stocks are anti-inflationary? Only when the Fed wants them to be. Otherwise, after the crash, their core businesses will be nearly wiped out by plummeting purchasing power.

    A lot more things that are productive on an individual level (tools) or barter goods are also anti-inflationary on lesser level. It depends on what anyone want to do during the episode of high inflation, and after that.
     
    Businesses with franchise characteristics (the ability to raise prices with losing marketshare) and modest capital requirements benefit from inflation. Coca Cola is a classic example, and indeed Coca Cola performed very well in the 1970s (though it did this for most of the 20th century regardless of economic conditions).

    Competitive businesses, and especially competitive businesses with high capital requirements, do poorly with high inflation. These businesses have a very limited ability to raise prices and see sharply increasing input costs.

    Lastly, central banks have much less power of this than people think.

    https://equitablegrowth.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/inflation-target-alt.png

    https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/qe4people/pages/105/attachments/original/1473406553/inflation_forecasts.jpg?1473406553

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon

  12. @A123
    @Passer by


    Are Europe and Russia are incompatible? Have a say on it.

     

    There is a problematic assumption built into your question. Europe is composed of two incompatible factions:
        • Christian Populist nations, such as Hungary & Poland
        • SJW Islamic Globalist nations, lead by Germany

    Christian Europe and Christian Russian are largely compatible. Getting past some of the history between the USSR and Poland would be worthwhile, but not easy.

    SJW Germany and its "woke" client states oppose traditional Christian values. Thus, Germany and Christian Russia are 100% incompatible.

    European Parliament threatening sanctions on Russia over Belarus.
     
    Christian Poland has a land border with Belarus and physically separates the Baltic nations from the rest of the EU. Russia should cultivate Poland's cooperation (or at least neutrality) to foil the aggressive Merkel/Laschet push for EU annexation of Belarus.

    Why is Putin rewarding Merkel/Laschet with NordStream 2 while Germany's vassal, the EU Parliament, is threatening sanctions? Is there some bit of KGB deviousness that is not yet apparent?

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon, @Rbze, @Thorfinnsson

    • SJW Islamic Globalist nations, lead by Germany

    You actually don’t realize the existence of a third, anti-state faction in those globalist states, whether diminishingly small or rapidly increasing.

  13. @Blinky Bill
    https://twitter.com/BelarusPolicy/status/1403661984252502021?s=20

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon

    Cue HK oppositionists demanding US troops to invade and liberate the territory after ramping up the sanctions on China, possibly up to a trade embargo, after sending all their money offshore and even moving to Pacificist bloc countries.

    (US stopped treating HK as having separate political and economic status so it will hit HK too)

    • Replies: @Yellowface Anon
    @Yellowface Anon

    (Most HKers are actually minimizing their personal loss from their wanted attack on the territory by emigrating with their money. This is some kind of scorched earth strategy only conceivable by rootless cosmopolitans HKers are, one that was unwittingly imposed on the Jews after Roman repression in the 1st century.)

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

    , @Blinky Bill
    @Yellowface Anon

    There's always room for one more!

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EEELTH8WkAEDVTz.jpg

    Check out what it says on his jacket. 😂😂😂😂


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Terror_(Russia)

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

  14. My brief Twitter takes here. (Spoiler: Talk of white genocide misses the point).

    You miss the point yourself. (Perhaps you’re too caught up in your regrets that you missed the CRT gravy train to think straight.)

    The point is that CRT has real negative effects on real white people, including the damnable white fools promoting it. It’s not all just fun and games, you know.

    Weird kind of “supremacy” that makes life worse for its supposed beneficiaries (and their descendants, in those increasingly rare cases they actually have any).

    • Agree: AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @Rbze
    @silviosilver

    It mostly harms the upper middle class whites, which is a good thing. The primary political conflict in the USA is class war between lower class whites and higher class whites, so the non-sjw lower class whites should want the higher class whites to be harmed by their own woke doctrines.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon

    , @reiner Tor
    @silviosilver

    Yes. Supporting CRT can be beneficial on a personal level in a much narrower sense, the way that Judenrat members benefited from supporting the Nazis. Ultimately you might be shot with the rest, but until it happens, you had a higher level of personal comfort.

    , @Anatoly Karlin
    @silviosilver

    Robin DiAngelo made bank. Promoting CRT seems to have worked out pretty well for her.

    High status Whites who promote CRT benefit, at least so long as they don't drink the Kool-Aid and do things like move into Black neighborhoods in solidarity. (This is where "Does it have good schools?" comes in). But that is just another one of life's myriad IQ tests, high status Whites did not generally become high status by failing them.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Brás Cubas, @Mitleser

  15. @A123
    @Passer by


    Are Europe and Russia are incompatible? Have a say on it.

     

    There is a problematic assumption built into your question. Europe is composed of two incompatible factions:
        • Christian Populist nations, such as Hungary & Poland
        • SJW Islamic Globalist nations, lead by Germany

    Christian Europe and Christian Russian are largely compatible. Getting past some of the history between the USSR and Poland would be worthwhile, but not easy.

    SJW Germany and its "woke" client states oppose traditional Christian values. Thus, Germany and Christian Russia are 100% incompatible.

    European Parliament threatening sanctions on Russia over Belarus.
     
    Christian Poland has a land border with Belarus and physically separates the Baltic nations from the rest of the EU. Russia should cultivate Poland's cooperation (or at least neutrality) to foil the aggressive Merkel/Laschet push for EU annexation of Belarus.

    Why is Putin rewarding Merkel/Laschet with NordStream 2 while Germany's vassal, the EU Parliament, is threatening sanctions? Is there some bit of KGB deviousness that is not yet apparent?

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon, @Rbze, @Thorfinnsson

    Poles are belligerent low IQ retards and would never do anything that’s in their best interests. And neither Poland or Hungary are “christian populist.” They are both just stupid degenerate American puppet states. Something like 20% of Hungarian women are pornstars or prostitutes and Poland has the one of the lowest fertility rate in the world.

  16. @silviosilver

    My brief Twitter takes here. (Spoiler: Talk of white genocide misses the point).
     
    You miss the point yourself. (Perhaps you're too caught up in your regrets that you missed the CRT gravy train to think straight.)

    The point is that CRT has real negative effects on real white people, including the damnable white fools promoting it. It's not all just fun and games, you know.

    Weird kind of "supremacy" that makes life worse for its supposed beneficiaries (and their descendants, in those increasingly rare cases they actually have any).

    Replies: @Rbze, @reiner Tor, @Anatoly Karlin

    It mostly harms the upper middle class whites, which is a good thing. The primary political conflict in the USA is class war between lower class whites and higher class whites, so the non-sjw lower class whites should want the higher class whites to be harmed by their own woke doctrines.

    • Replies: @Yellowface Anon
    @Rbze

    The real war is elites fanning ideological conflicts between upper-middle class and lower classes (and actually regardless of race), so they will be exhausted and unable to form an united front in opposition to Globalist policies.

    Replies: @Rbze

  17. @Rbze
    @silviosilver

    It mostly harms the upper middle class whites, which is a good thing. The primary political conflict in the USA is class war between lower class whites and higher class whites, so the non-sjw lower class whites should want the higher class whites to be harmed by their own woke doctrines.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon

    The real war is elites fanning ideological conflicts between upper-middle class and lower classes (and actually regardless of race), so they will be exhausted and unable to form an united front in opposition to Globalist policies.

    • Agree: sher singh, Bashibuzuk
    • Replies: @Rbze
    @Yellowface Anon

    Wrong. Upper middle is 100% on the same team as elite. And the other races do not matter. They are only pawns in the American white class war.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon

  18. @Yellowface Anon
    @Blinky Bill

    Cue HK oppositionists demanding US troops to invade and liberate the territory after ramping up the sanctions on China, possibly up to a trade embargo, after sending all their money offshore and even moving to Pacificist bloc countries.

    (US stopped treating HK as having separate political and economic status so it will hit HK too)

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon, @Blinky Bill

    (Most HKers are actually minimizing their personal loss from their wanted attack on the territory by emigrating with their money. This is some kind of scorched earth strategy only conceivable by rootless cosmopolitans HKers are, one that was unwittingly imposed on the Jews after Roman repression in the 1st century.)

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    @Yellowface Anon

    Have you read it?

    https://www.unz.com/jthompson/costly-immigration/

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon

  19. @angmoh
    @Malenfant

    Agree that this result is likely something to do with curriculum or a measurement artefact. I'd lean to the latter - smart kids do pretty well regardless of what teaching fad predominates.

    My assumption is assortative mating is a real phenomenon and that high-end performance will prove relatively resilient regardless of immigration trends for a while yet.


    Australia has one of the more eugenic immigration policies in the world and has still experienced a drop in PISA results across the board over the past few decades too. Smells like something other than raw ability changing.

    Replies: @Pericles, @Stebbing Heuer

    I think assortative mating is primarily driven by educational institutions herding together the smart people when they are about to do family formation. Let me add ‘at scale’. They do it at scale rather than the amateurish versions of country clubs or whatever.

    If so, then perhaps it’s a passing fad. E.g., if universities add too many strange and/or sub-par animals to their herds then the assortative mating will become assortative in other directions than, say, intelligence or talent.

    Regarding PISA, revealed in mid-2020 but I hadn’t noticed until now: it turns out the improved PISA 2018 results for Sweden were founded on sorting away the 11% of students who didn’t know sufficient Swedish, after at least one year of study, including foreigners from various odd countries but also some born in Sweden. (The permitted limit is apparently 5%.)

    At least one school motivated this with they ‘wanted to focus on what is best for the student’. Lol, yes, education is primarily about the emotions experienced by those in the classroom.

    A couple of links (in Swedish):
    https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/qs/sveriges-pisa-framgang-bygger-pa-falska-siffror/
    https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/Ga9d24/sa-kom-sveriges-pisa-resultat-i-snalblasten

    • Replies: @angmoh
    @Pericles

    Will be interesting to see how it pans out, but my guess is that people aren't simply choosing from the pool of people who attend college. I am confident that elites will quickly adapt and find new status markers to keep assortative mating humming along once tertiary education becomes a less reliable signal.

    Most modern young people aren't thinking about marriage at all until 25-30yo, at which point profession becomes a big part of identity. The majority of people find partners on dating apps now, and they all show your job. Most high earners discriminate liberally - my impression is that among top the top 20% or so, assortative mating is becoming even more efficient.

    Thinking of 5 closes couple friends I know (all late 20s or 30s);
    - Doctor & doctor
    - Finance guy & dentist
    - Govt drone & govt drone
    - Finance guy & finance gal
    - Lawyer & lawyer

    When I cast my mind further afield the same dynamics are at play. Maybe my peer group is unique (many first gen migrants, almost zero 'old money') - but the trends are striking to me.

  20. @silviosilver

    My brief Twitter takes here. (Spoiler: Talk of white genocide misses the point).
     
    You miss the point yourself. (Perhaps you're too caught up in your regrets that you missed the CRT gravy train to think straight.)

    The point is that CRT has real negative effects on real white people, including the damnable white fools promoting it. It's not all just fun and games, you know.

    Weird kind of "supremacy" that makes life worse for its supposed beneficiaries (and their descendants, in those increasingly rare cases they actually have any).

    Replies: @Rbze, @reiner Tor, @Anatoly Karlin

    Yes. Supporting CRT can be beneficial on a personal level in a much narrower sense, the way that Judenrat members benefited from supporting the Nazis. Ultimately you might be shot with the rest, but until it happens, you had a higher level of personal comfort.

  21. I disagree with this. The point of Kevin MacDonald’s body of work was that Jews as an influential elite group with disproportionate power in certain important fields could put their thumbs on the scale and stop the pendulum in one extreme in perpetuity. Actually the previous bioleninist episodes never had such absolute dominance, nor did they last for so long so universally across the West. It’s a kind of a ratchet where things are going faster in some periods and slower in others, but it never seems to stop. I would also bet that it will, at some point, but there’s no law of nature which says it must. The smaller whites are as a percentage of the population and the elite, the less likely that it will change. Hating an irrelevant small minority or extinct population in perpetuity is possible.

    Because CRT is adding new groups to the elite, like Indian Brahmins and similar, it’s far from guaranteed that this situation would change at all.

    • Agree: The Big Red Scary
    • LOL: sher singh
    • Replies: @sher singh
    @reiner Tor


    The real war is elites fanning ideological conflicts between upper-middle class and lower classes (and actually regardless of race), so they will be exhausted and unable to form an united front in opposition to Globalist policies.
     
    http://www.occidentaldissent.com/2021/06/07/breaking-points-groundbreaking-study-proves-culture-wars-kill-class-politics/

    http://www.occidentaldissent.com/2021/06/11/poll-support-for-white-nationalism-surges-in-oregon/

    https://i1.wp.com/www.occidentaldissent.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/06/E3lKAb7XIAA971q.jpg

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ
    , @iffen
    @reiner Tor

    The point of Kevin MacDonald’s body of work

    I will defer to you if you tell me that you have read him extensively, but my reading of TCOC informs me that his point is that Jews have been (are) successful in intergroup competition because they are better at being a group than others.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    , @The Big Red Scary
    @reiner Tor

    Short the Jews, go long on Brahmins, of which there is a huge reservoir. Use Mandarins as a hedge, since there are so many of them that at least some of them will figure out to be smooth-talkers.

    Replies: @The Big Red Scary, @Blinky Bill

  22. @reiner Tor
    https://twitter.com/akarlin88/status/1275203120537223168

    I disagree with this. The point of Kevin MacDonald’s body of work was that Jews as an influential elite group with disproportionate power in certain important fields could put their thumbs on the scale and stop the pendulum in one extreme in perpetuity. Actually the previous bioleninist episodes never had such absolute dominance, nor did they last for so long so universally across the West. It’s a kind of a ratchet where things are going faster in some periods and slower in others, but it never seems to stop. I would also bet that it will, at some point, but there’s no law of nature which says it must. The smaller whites are as a percentage of the population and the elite, the less likely that it will change. Hating an irrelevant small minority or extinct population in perpetuity is possible.

    Because CRT is adding new groups to the elite, like Indian Brahmins and similar, it’s far from guaranteed that this situation would change at all.

    Replies: @sher singh, @iffen, @The Big Red Scary

    The real war is elites fanning ideological conflicts between upper-middle class and lower classes (and actually regardless of race), so they will be exhausted and unable to form an united front in opposition to Globalist policies.

    http://www.occidentaldissent.com/2021/06/07/breaking-points-groundbreaking-study-proves-culture-wars-kill-class-politics/

    http://www.occidentaldissent.com/2021/06/11/poll-support-for-white-nationalism-surges-in-oregon/

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

  23. @silviosilver

    My brief Twitter takes here. (Spoiler: Talk of white genocide misses the point).
     
    You miss the point yourself. (Perhaps you're too caught up in your regrets that you missed the CRT gravy train to think straight.)

    The point is that CRT has real negative effects on real white people, including the damnable white fools promoting it. It's not all just fun and games, you know.

    Weird kind of "supremacy" that makes life worse for its supposed beneficiaries (and their descendants, in those increasingly rare cases they actually have any).

    Replies: @Rbze, @reiner Tor, @Anatoly Karlin

    Robin DiAngelo made bank. Promoting CRT seems to have worked out pretty well for her.

    High status Whites who promote CRT benefit, at least so long as they don’t drink the Kool-Aid and do things like move into Black neighborhoods in solidarity. (This is where “Does it have good schools?” comes in). But that is just another one of life’s myriad IQ tests, high status Whites did not generally become high status by failing them.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Maybe, maybe they'll use the poison for their short term benefit, but what about the children? There's quite many cases of children of well doing families getting radicalised historically. Even in Czarist Russia, which as a country was not, how I should say, not very woke? You know life is not just one big IQ test, people go through different phases, change, grow and degenerate among other stuff.

    Anyway if one lacks of common sense like not thinking the welfare or future challenges of one's progeny, then one is lost, no matter how high IQ one's got.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin, @sher singh

    , @Brás Cubas
    @Anatoly Karlin


    so long as they don’t drink the Kool-Aid and do things like move into Black neighborhoods in solidarity
     
    You are deluding yourself. Progressives' aim is to end "neighborhoods" altogether. They are tantamount to segregation in their view. So, should their kool-aid work, they won't need to move into black neighborhoods, because black neighborhoods will move into them. (I say this as a mere analyst, without any personal predisposition against such an outcome.)

    You try to reconcile nationalism and IQism. It's impossible. Nationalism is a defense of an ethnic group. It makes no difference to nationalists whether their ethnic group is high IQ or low IQ. They will defend it anyway.

    Replies: @utu

    , @Mitleser
    @Anatoly Karlin


    High status Whites who promote CRT benefit
     
    And high status non-whites benefit even more.
    The prosperity of current white collaborateurs does not make CRT which undermines their ability to defend their status against non-whites anti-white.

    In Bobos In Paradise: The New Upper Class and How They Got there (2000), David Brooks describes the displacement of the WASPs as the dominant ethnic group in the US with the introduction in the early 60s of “merit” as the primary criterion of admission to universities, especially the Ivies. The new criterion was introduced by WASPs themselves, thus paving the way to their own demise and conceding power to a new emergent group that found its own flourishing within “merit”: the high-performing Jew. This led, a generation later, according to Brooks, to the rise of the Bobos (the bourgeois bohemians) as the new cultural and economic elite. They were bourgeois because they had acquired great riches given the demand for educated labor in the new global economy they had helped create—but they were also bohemian because they imbibed the modernist progressivist values of their Ivy League professors. In other words, like their predecessors, they laid the groundwork for their own destruction by embracing the ideology that evolved into the identity politics of the 90s.

    The academic Bobos are now being displaced. Like the WASPs before them, they have written the script of their own demise—in their case, through a dedicated investment in the rise of the minority academic. The progressive ideology they subscribed to left them with no tools to resist their impending fall.
     
    https://quillette.com/2021/04/09/georgetowns-cultural-revolution/

    Replies: @Mitleser

  24. @Anyone with a brain
    Two things I want to mention.

    Apparently the drought in the Western U.S is getting worse. https://www.reuters.com/world/us/hoover-dam-reservoir-hits-record-low-sign-extreme-western-us-drought-2021-06-10/ What are the geopolitical implications of this?

    Second, it seems like the poor and middle class will be forced to deal with inflation. The only real anti-inflation asset I see out there is real estate. Precious metal isn't doing bad but not great. Now that I think of it stocks are a pretty anti-inflationary, but alternative news website readers have a doomer bias and think they will come crashing down soon. The upper classes can avoid inflation because they can afford real estate. The real estate question ties back into the drought question, what happens when overpriced real estate becomes worthless because there is no water. But droughts come and go.

    Honestly the best anti-inflation asset might be potable water, or better yet stock in companies that have purification or desalination technology.

    I was about to throw out there as food for thought the idea of the U.S invading Mexico, but in a non-military way, NGO, protests, referenda etc. But then I remembered Mexico also has water issues in its northern regions. So invasion for water would be ridiculous. Canada might be a better target, but that would probably just be some water treaty.

    Third subject, I almost forgot. According to science elevated CO2 makes us dumber https://archive.thinkprogress.org/exclusive-elevated-co2-levels-directly-affect-human-cognition-new-harvard-study-shows-2748e7378941/ buy houseplants people!

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon, @LondonBob

    Equities perform poorly in high inflation, better than most things but they aren’t good. Margins get destroyed and disposable income goes on the necessities, only commodities and gold do well, the 1970s was a long and brutal bear market for US equities.

    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary
    @LondonBob

    So a good time to accumulate if you are not close to retirement and have a steady income.

    , @Thorfinnsson
    @LondonBob

    Equities as a whole did not perform well during the great inflation of the 1970s, but there were standouts during this period. Teledyne and Coca Cola for instance. And in the mid-1970s a remarkable boom in small-cap stocks, which rose over 13% pa from 1976 - 1983.

    It should also be pointed out that there was a brutal bear market in '73-74 which put a damper on the period, and equities far outperformed bonds and cash. True enough that the real stars of this period were gold and oil, but there's no guarantee during inflationary periods that commodities will shine in real terms.

    I also don't get the picture that people in the 1970s were only spending money on necessities. Look at vintage advertisements of the period--normal consumption continued:

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/72/82/fa/7282fa93ad58c50b55c65acf204a2d1d.jpg

    Today personal luxury coupes (pretty much the opposite of the necessity) barely even exist.

    Remember that it was a period of high inflation, not hyperinflation.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  25. @Anatoly Karlin
    @silviosilver

    Robin DiAngelo made bank. Promoting CRT seems to have worked out pretty well for her.

    High status Whites who promote CRT benefit, at least so long as they don't drink the Kool-Aid and do things like move into Black neighborhoods in solidarity. (This is where "Does it have good schools?" comes in). But that is just another one of life's myriad IQ tests, high status Whites did not generally become high status by failing them.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Brás Cubas, @Mitleser

    Maybe, maybe they’ll use the poison for their short term benefit, but what about the children? There’s quite many cases of children of well doing families getting radicalised historically. Even in Czarist Russia, which as a country was not, how I should say, not very woke? You know life is not just one big IQ test, people go through different phases, change, grow and degenerate among other stuff.

    Anyway if one lacks of common sense like not thinking the welfare or future challenges of one’s progeny, then one is lost, no matter how high IQ one’s got.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    @AltanBakshi

    We know from Gregory Clark that class is amazingly stable historically, being mostly rooted in biology, even maintaining its internal structure from one political regime to another even as its exterior forms change.

    I suspect their children and even their grandchildren will be just fine, and if anything, even higher status than their ancestors ("white privilege" being more of a thing in, say, Latin America, than the US).

    Replies: @The Big Red Scary, @Yellowface Anon, @AltanBakshi

    , @sher singh
    @AltanBakshi

    co-ordination issue, there's no Khalsa for them to collectivize beyond the state to affect society.
    So, then it becomes a question of being high status for 1 gen or 0 gen.

    Society is fucked anyway many will say so might as well have my shine?
    This is the mentality of people cursed to live in ADharmik society & why it is Seva to change this||

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

  26. @Yellowface Anon
    @Blinky Bill

    Cue HK oppositionists demanding US troops to invade and liberate the territory after ramping up the sanctions on China, possibly up to a trade embargo, after sending all their money offshore and even moving to Pacificist bloc countries.

    (US stopped treating HK as having separate political and economic status so it will hit HK too)

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon, @Blinky Bill

    There’s always room for one more!

    Check out what it says on his jacket. 😂😂😂😂

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Terror_(Russia)

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    @Blinky Bill

    God bless Lying Ted!



    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Epk1huUUYAE4JzW.jpg



    Never trust a HongKonger!


    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSs7S2LaerLLSRoDQAEz9QTiZZ32sFltleQtobqQCkdtH_6vz3JAGfylf5r&s.jpg

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon

  27. @LondonBob
    @Anyone with a brain

    Equities perform poorly in high inflation, better than most things but they aren't good. Margins get destroyed and disposable income goes on the necessities, only commodities and gold do well, the 1970s was a long and brutal bear market for US equities.

    Replies: @The Big Red Scary, @Thorfinnsson

    So a good time to accumulate if you are not close to retirement and have a steady income.

  28. New ideology just dropped.

  29. @angmoh
    @Malenfant

    Agree that this result is likely something to do with curriculum or a measurement artefact. I'd lean to the latter - smart kids do pretty well regardless of what teaching fad predominates.

    My assumption is assortative mating is a real phenomenon and that high-end performance will prove relatively resilient regardless of immigration trends for a while yet.


    Australia has one of the more eugenic immigration policies in the world and has still experienced a drop in PISA results across the board over the past few decades too. Smells like something other than raw ability changing.

    Replies: @Pericles, @Stebbing Heuer

    In Australia I think it is a case of the teachers being dumber than the students, and dumbing down the curriculum to a level they can cope with but which bores the bright kids, so the kids tune out. They could get some old textbooks or search online for excellent materials and educate themselves in their spare time but it’s more fun playing video games.

    And yes we have worked out an effective way to identify and attract clever, hard-working, high-achieving people. Quality of life is suffering because rent-seeking has made everything so bloody expensive but the clever migrants from developing countries don’t seem to mind and adapt better than the ‘legacy’ locals – social Darwinism in action.

  30. @Blinky Bill
    @Yellowface Anon

    There's always room for one more!

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EEELTH8WkAEDVTz.jpg

    Check out what it says on his jacket. 😂😂😂😂


    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_Terror_(Russia)

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

    God bless Lying Ted!

    [MORE]

    Never trust a HongKonger!

    • Replies: @Yellowface Anon
    @Blinky Bill

    Painful memories of the time I once sided with them (being totally delusional about having the US hand on HK then). Gladly I came out of that neocon-shilling by escaping the local information bubble.

  31. @Blinky Bill
    @Blinky Bill

    God bless Lying Ted!



    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Epk1huUUYAE4JzW.jpg



    Never trust a HongKonger!


    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSs7S2LaerLLSRoDQAEz9QTiZZ32sFltleQtobqQCkdtH_6vz3JAGfylf5r&s.jpg

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon

    Painful memories of the time I once sided with them (being totally delusional about having the US hand on HK then). Gladly I came out of that neocon-shilling by escaping the local information bubble.

  32. @AltanBakshi
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Maybe, maybe they'll use the poison for their short term benefit, but what about the children? There's quite many cases of children of well doing families getting radicalised historically. Even in Czarist Russia, which as a country was not, how I should say, not very woke? You know life is not just one big IQ test, people go through different phases, change, grow and degenerate among other stuff.

    Anyway if one lacks of common sense like not thinking the welfare or future challenges of one's progeny, then one is lost, no matter how high IQ one's got.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin, @sher singh

    We know from Gregory Clark that class is amazingly stable historically, being mostly rooted in biology, even maintaining its internal structure from one political regime to another even as its exterior forms change.

    I suspect their children and even their grandchildren will be just fine, and if anything, even higher status than their ancestors (“white privilege” being more of a thing in, say, Latin America, than the US).

    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Is there a Russian Gregory Clark, who has studied persistence of social class through both Bolshevik and Oligarchic revolutions? In the latter case, it is clear, in the former case less so.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin, @Rattus Norwegius

    , @Yellowface Anon
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Consider paradigmatic changes in economic structure (including from feudalism to capitalism and from capitalism to techno-feudalism)!

    , @AltanBakshi
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Well there were no such dramatic changes in the racial composition of the USA, UK and France, and I really dont believe you if you will claim that classes stayed stable through Russian and Chinese revolutions.

    Replies: @AP

  33. @Anatoly Karlin
    @AltanBakshi

    We know from Gregory Clark that class is amazingly stable historically, being mostly rooted in biology, even maintaining its internal structure from one political regime to another even as its exterior forms change.

    I suspect their children and even their grandchildren will be just fine, and if anything, even higher status than their ancestors ("white privilege" being more of a thing in, say, Latin America, than the US).

    Replies: @The Big Red Scary, @Yellowface Anon, @AltanBakshi

    Is there a Russian Gregory Clark, who has studied persistence of social class through both Bolshevik and Oligarchic revolutions? In the latter case, it is clear, in the former case less so.

    • Agree: AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    @The Big Red Scary

    It was prestigious for Old Bolsheviks to marry women of the former aristocracy, so there was some continuity even there (much less so for men ofc).

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @reiner Tor

    , @Rattus Norwegius
    @The Big Red Scary

    https://osf.io/preprints/socarxiv/gnypr/

    Enemies of the people

    Abstract
    Enemies of the people were the millions of artists, engineers, professors, and affluent peasants that were thought a threat to the Soviet regime for being the educated elite, and were forcedly resettled to the Gulag, i.e. the system of forced labor camps across the Soviet Union. In this paper we look at the long-run consequences of this dark re-location episode. We show that areas around camps with a larger share of enemies among camp prisoners are more prosperous today, as captured by firms' wages and profits, as well as night lights per capita. We also show that the descendants of enemies are more likely to be tertiary educated today. Our results point in the direction of a long-run persistence of education and a resulting positive effect on local economic outcomes. A 28 percentage point increase in the share of enemies increases night lights per capita by 58%, profits per employee by 65%, and average wages by 22%.

  34. @AltanBakshi
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Maybe, maybe they'll use the poison for their short term benefit, but what about the children? There's quite many cases of children of well doing families getting radicalised historically. Even in Czarist Russia, which as a country was not, how I should say, not very woke? You know life is not just one big IQ test, people go through different phases, change, grow and degenerate among other stuff.

    Anyway if one lacks of common sense like not thinking the welfare or future challenges of one's progeny, then one is lost, no matter how high IQ one's got.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin, @sher singh

    co-ordination issue, there’s no Khalsa for them to collectivize beyond the state to affect society.
    So, then it becomes a question of being high status for 1 gen or 0 gen.

    Society is fucked anyway many will say so might as well have my shine?
    This is the mentality of people cursed to live in ADharmik society & why it is Seva to change this||

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

  35. @Anatoly Karlin
    @AltanBakshi

    We know from Gregory Clark that class is amazingly stable historically, being mostly rooted in biology, even maintaining its internal structure from one political regime to another even as its exterior forms change.

    I suspect their children and even their grandchildren will be just fine, and if anything, even higher status than their ancestors ("white privilege" being more of a thing in, say, Latin America, than the US).

    Replies: @The Big Red Scary, @Yellowface Anon, @AltanBakshi

    Consider paradigmatic changes in economic structure (including from feudalism to capitalism and from capitalism to techno-feudalism)!

  36. @The Big Red Scary
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Is there a Russian Gregory Clark, who has studied persistence of social class through both Bolshevik and Oligarchic revolutions? In the latter case, it is clear, in the former case less so.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin, @Rattus Norwegius

    It was prestigious for Old Bolsheviks to marry women of the former aristocracy, so there was some continuity even there (much less so for men ofc).

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Most Old Bolsheviks met their dooms in the purges of 1930s. There was btw poetic justice in that!

    Replies: @AP

    , @reiner Tor
    @Anatoly Karlin

    It was still very bad for them as a group. So supporting the Revolution was a suicidal thing for those who did so. Probably it’s not much better supporting CRT for white elites.

  37. I just saw our host’s tweet on shorting Aeroflot. Clearly the airline industry will not recover in 100 years (which means practically forever), since what allowed the exponential boom in international air travel (mainly market economics lowering fares and generating demand for tourism/business trips) is being superseded by everyone’s perceived need to remain in place (which means controlling people’s movement for the elites, and settling somewhere to weather out the chaos/resisting vaccine passports for helots and plebeians).

    There’s never a need to mourn what had always been a privilege and an abnormal transplant of your physical self into places you don’t belong, as a tourist/person on business. We are simply reverting to the historical norm of chasing after the best land, and sticking more or less firmly on the soil upon finding the right spot.

    (I had not left HK since 2017 despite all the civil unrest in 2019)

    • Replies: @Dissident
    @Yellowface Anon


    an abnormal transplant of your physical self into places you don’t belong
     
    1.) Couldn't the same be said about the automobile? Or even any technological advance in travel, going back at least as far as the wheel? By your apparent logic, couldn't you argue that traveling farther than is possible by riding an animal is "abnormal"?

    2.) If one were to remove the qualifier "physical" from your statement, couldn't it be applied to any form of telecommunication? Including the one that all of us reading and participating in this thread are using: the Internet.

    Related motif pic:
    https://cdni.rbth.com/rbthmedia/images/2020.06/original/5ede965815e9f973c81e6872.jpg

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon

  38. @Anatoly Karlin
    @AltanBakshi

    We know from Gregory Clark that class is amazingly stable historically, being mostly rooted in biology, even maintaining its internal structure from one political regime to another even as its exterior forms change.

    I suspect their children and even their grandchildren will be just fine, and if anything, even higher status than their ancestors ("white privilege" being more of a thing in, say, Latin America, than the US).

    Replies: @The Big Red Scary, @Yellowface Anon, @AltanBakshi

    Well there were no such dramatic changes in the racial composition of the USA, UK and France, and I really dont believe you if you will claim that classes stayed stable through Russian and Chinese revolutions.

    • Replies: @AP
    @AltanBakshi

    Clark showed that (after a period of turbulence) descendants of old elites are even now richer than average in Communist China. There has been no study in Russia but I suspect a similar phenomena. Among elite Russians I know, one sees things like descent from a priest who hid his former vocation, a merchant family from the Volga who moved to Baku after the Revolution to become proles down there as a way of “laundering” their former status before returning to another Russian region where they and their descendent had brilliant careers ( including in the Party itself lol), etc.

    There was certainly disruption and many talented people were needlessly killed, but the survivors found ways to eventually succeed.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @The Big Red Scary, @Another German Reader, @Not Raul

  39. @Anatoly Karlin
    @The Big Red Scary

    It was prestigious for Old Bolsheviks to marry women of the former aristocracy, so there was some continuity even there (much less so for men ofc).

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @reiner Tor

    Most Old Bolsheviks met their dooms in the purges of 1930s. There was btw poetic justice in that!

    • Agree: AP
    • Replies: @AP
    @AltanBakshi

    If Stalin’s only victims were various Bolsheviks in the purges he wouldn’t have been such a bad guy.

  40. AP says:
    @AltanBakshi
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Well there were no such dramatic changes in the racial composition of the USA, UK and France, and I really dont believe you if you will claim that classes stayed stable through Russian and Chinese revolutions.

    Replies: @AP

    Clark showed that (after a period of turbulence) descendants of old elites are even now richer than average in Communist China. There has been no study in Russia but I suspect a similar phenomena. Among elite Russians I know, one sees things like descent from a priest who hid his former vocation, a merchant family from the Volga who moved to Baku after the Revolution to become proles down there as a way of “laundering” their former status before returning to another Russian region where they and their descendent had brilliant careers ( including in the Party itself lol), etc.

    There was certainly disruption and many talented people were needlessly killed, but the survivors found ways to eventually succeed.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @AP

    Few cases are not the whole class, some of my ancestors were wealthy Buryat landowners, but most were exterminated during and after the revolution, still I would not claim that what happened to some of my ancestors was a rule, but such incidents were quite a common thing for landowners. During the Chinese revolution millions of landowners, with their families were exterminated, or so Chairman Mao himself claimed, therefore it is odd to argue that they as a class survived, when in reality only some survived, and even fewer got later prosperous.

    , @The Big Red Scary
    @AP

    One of my scientific colleagues is the grandson of a priest-martyr. Bogolyubov was the son of a professor of theology. Bogolyubov was the most high-status moral sponsor of getting permission to restore the old church in Dubna, during the 1980s. Also, some of Fr. Pavel Florensky's descendants were eminent scientists and also faithful to the Church:

    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A4%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9,_%D0%9F%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%BB_%D0%90%D0%BB%D0%B5%D0%BA%D1%81%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%B4%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87

    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A4%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9,_%D0%92%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%9F%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87

    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A4%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9,_%D0%9A%D0%B8%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BB%D0%BB_%D0%9F%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%BB%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87

    https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A4%D0%BB%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%81%D0%BA%D0%B8%D0%B9,_%D0%9F%D0%B0%D0%B2%D0%B5%D0%BB_%D0%92%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%B5%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87

    , @Another German Reader
    @AP

    Politics is always personal. Politics is always tribal/class based. Names, Flags, Hymn and The Narrative change, but people won't.

    Many of the Communist leaders (Ho Chi Minh, Giap et co.) and local Vietminh/Vietcong commanders are from the lower elite/upper-middle class - the rural mandarins, who lost status/income when the French colonial administration finally remove the vestiges of the Imperial feudal system. They became the new elites after 1954/75 and never looked back.

    Turbulences -if they they do not reach Ghingis Khan-level- only hit the upper elites (who could not go into exile early enough) and portion of the upper middle-class. Portions of the lower middle-class benefit great from the new system as they are going to get those new middle-management positions.

    , @Not Raul
    @AP


    Among elite Russians I know, one sees things like descent from a priest who hid his former vocation, a merchant family from the Volga who moved to Baku after the Revolution to become proles down there as a way of “laundering” their former status before returning to another Russian region where they and their descendent had brilliant careers ( including in the Party itself lol), etc.
     
    This is very interesting. So, are members of the postwar elite in the Soviet Union more likely (relative to their share of the population) to be Russians from non-Russian areas (some of whom underwent status laundering) than Russians from Russian areas (where status laundering was possibly less common)?

    Replies: @AP

  41. @AltanBakshi
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Most Old Bolsheviks met their dooms in the purges of 1930s. There was btw poetic justice in that!

    Replies: @AP

    If Stalin’s only victims were various Bolsheviks in the purges he wouldn’t have been such a bad guy.

    • LOL: Boomthorkell
  42. @AP
    @AltanBakshi

    Clark showed that (after a period of turbulence) descendants of old elites are even now richer than average in Communist China. There has been no study in Russia but I suspect a similar phenomena. Among elite Russians I know, one sees things like descent from a priest who hid his former vocation, a merchant family from the Volga who moved to Baku after the Revolution to become proles down there as a way of “laundering” their former status before returning to another Russian region where they and their descendent had brilliant careers ( including in the Party itself lol), etc.

    There was certainly disruption and many talented people were needlessly killed, but the survivors found ways to eventually succeed.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @The Big Red Scary, @Another German Reader, @Not Raul

    Few cases are not the whole class, some of my ancestors were wealthy Buryat landowners, but most were exterminated during and after the revolution, still I would not claim that what happened to some of my ancestors was a rule, but such incidents were quite a common thing for landowners. During the Chinese revolution millions of landowners, with their families were exterminated, or so Chairman Mao himself claimed, therefore it is odd to argue that they as a class survived, when in reality only some survived, and even fewer got later prosperous.

  43. @AP
    @AltanBakshi

    Clark showed that (after a period of turbulence) descendants of old elites are even now richer than average in Communist China. There has been no study in Russia but I suspect a similar phenomena. Among elite Russians I know, one sees things like descent from a priest who hid his former vocation, a merchant family from the Volga who moved to Baku after the Revolution to become proles down there as a way of “laundering” their former status before returning to another Russian region where they and their descendent had brilliant careers ( including in the Party itself lol), etc.

    There was certainly disruption and many talented people were needlessly killed, but the survivors found ways to eventually succeed.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @The Big Red Scary, @Another German Reader, @Not Raul

  44. @Yellowface Anon
    @Rbze

    The real war is elites fanning ideological conflicts between upper-middle class and lower classes (and actually regardless of race), so they will be exhausted and unable to form an united front in opposition to Globalist policies.

    Replies: @Rbze

    Wrong. Upper middle is 100% on the same team as elite. And the other races do not matter. They are only pawns in the American white class war.

    • Replies: @Yellowface Anon
    @Rbze

    They're on the same team, but the upper-middle class is sincere while the elites understands the true intention.

    And who can be sure the Blacks won't fall from grace once their systemic dominance is secured, since critical race theory is a phantom that will always find new classes of the oppressed to overturn the newly found Black privilege? It is racial-cultural perpetual revolution.

  45. @Anatoly Karlin
    @silviosilver

    Robin DiAngelo made bank. Promoting CRT seems to have worked out pretty well for her.

    High status Whites who promote CRT benefit, at least so long as they don't drink the Kool-Aid and do things like move into Black neighborhoods in solidarity. (This is where "Does it have good schools?" comes in). But that is just another one of life's myriad IQ tests, high status Whites did not generally become high status by failing them.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Brás Cubas, @Mitleser

    so long as they don’t drink the Kool-Aid and do things like move into Black neighborhoods in solidarity

    You are deluding yourself. Progressives’ aim is to end “neighborhoods” altogether. They are tantamount to segregation in their view. So, should their kool-aid work, they won’t need to move into black neighborhoods, because black neighborhoods will move into them. (I say this as a mere analyst, without any personal predisposition against such an outcome.)

    You try to reconcile nationalism and IQism. It’s impossible. Nationalism is a defense of an ethnic group. It makes no difference to nationalists whether their ethnic group is high IQ or low IQ. They will defend it anyway.

    • Replies: @utu
    @Brás Cubas

    You try to reconcile nationalism and IQism. - No, he does not. To be a nationalist you must love your people. His previous post revealed that he hates Russians just like Hitler hated Germans in 1945 because they did no meet his expectations. Karlin believes that 90% of Russians are idiots because they did not accept Putin's magnanimous generosity of flooding the whole of Russia with free flu vaccines though he forgets to mention that Putin so far release enough vaccine to vaccinated 10% of Russians only. If tomorrow the 90% all died he would be happy because the remaining 10% of vaccinated could enjoy their life.


    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/dying-from-corona-in-russia/#comment-4717233
    I am now just as fine with “everyone else” dying, hopefully the sooner the better, so that my local food court and gym stops closing down whenever there’s a new wave (like both have just today) and reducing my quality of life.
     

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @Brás Cubas, @Anatoly Karlin

  46. Talk of white genocide misses the point

    Assuming white genocide does play out, and I’m guessing that it would be a long drawn out process, wouldn’t that make a serious cut into the supply of SWPL? And if the supply side is cut back, then the existing SWPL will become increasingly valuable. If I can hold on for a few more years, my personal cache of SWPL might provide a tidy inheritance for my descendants.

    • LOL: Yellowface Anon
  47. @UNIT472
    Climate- The Western US is in a severe drought. Tree ring studies ( and California has tree rings that go back to when Julius Caesar ruled) show these are episodic but can last for a century or more. It also happens that Brazil is experiencing a severe drought. Good news for Florida orange growers I suppose but not for many others especially Las Vegas.

    Nevada was known for earlier Boom turned to Bust turned to Ghost Towns but never anything the size of a Las Vegas but if the Colorado river turns into the Colorado creek or a dry river bed in the coming years Las Vegas can't continue to exist. There is no other water source that can sustain a city of 2 million people plus the tourists.

    It may not be 'rising sea levels' that are the problem but falling ground water levels that are devastating.

    Replies: @Svevlad, @GMC, @Boomthorkell

    Good, building cities that big in a desert with notoriously unreliable water supply is stupid

    • Agree: AltanBakshi
  48. I’ve started a no grain diet. Aka minimum to no bread at all or rice, even potatoes. Just meat, dairy, fruits and vegetables. Gotta say – it’s pretty good.

    • Agree: Thorfinnsson
    • Replies: @Morton's toes
    @Svevlad

    What is the substitute for chocolate chip cookies?

    I can do without the rest but I have wracked my brain for close to two years and have been unable to crack this nut. : (

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Daniel Chieh, @Svevlad, @notanon

  49. @reiner Tor
    https://twitter.com/akarlin88/status/1275203120537223168

    I disagree with this. The point of Kevin MacDonald’s body of work was that Jews as an influential elite group with disproportionate power in certain important fields could put their thumbs on the scale and stop the pendulum in one extreme in perpetuity. Actually the previous bioleninist episodes never had such absolute dominance, nor did they last for so long so universally across the West. It’s a kind of a ratchet where things are going faster in some periods and slower in others, but it never seems to stop. I would also bet that it will, at some point, but there’s no law of nature which says it must. The smaller whites are as a percentage of the population and the elite, the less likely that it will change. Hating an irrelevant small minority or extinct population in perpetuity is possible.

    Because CRT is adding new groups to the elite, like Indian Brahmins and similar, it’s far from guaranteed that this situation would change at all.

    Replies: @sher singh, @iffen, @The Big Red Scary

    The point of Kevin MacDonald’s body of work

    I will defer to you if you tell me that you have read him extensively, but my reading of TCOC informs me that his point is that Jews have been (are) successful in intergroup competition because they are better at being a group than others.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @iffen


    my reading of TCOC informs me that his point is that Jews have been (are) successful in intergroup competition because they are better at being a group than others
     
    Well, better than elite whites (who are obsessed with their status vis-à-vis their white inferiors, but don’t care for true outgroups like Indian Brahmins - perhaps as a result of their long history of dominating such outgroups with ease?), and also as smart as elite whites. MacDonald also states that Northwest European whites are already susceptible to ideological manias, but those are usually episodic and rarely long term trends. The madness of the French Revolution quickly gave way to a more conservative period lasting decades, and the next era of revolutionary upheavals gave way to a period where elite opinion was strongly influenced by Social Darwinism.

    However, I don’t think Jews will have it good. Eventually they might be considered just another white group. Not only by nonwhites, but also by fanatical SJW whites. I think there were some signs of it already during the last Gaza War.

    One of the possibilities of a return to white supremacism would be to condemn any “historically oppressive” groups, or any groups which aren’t perfectly following the SJW fads of the day. That would actually mean hating on anyone not a white liberal (with the possible exception of some East Asians, but perhaps they could also be hated because of nationalism in their home countries back in East Asia). I mean, Latinos and blacks are not sufficiently accepting of homosexuals, or they are not doing enough for The Environment, etc. But it’s possible that the suicide cult will indeed result in the collapse of the power of whites in the elites, getting replaced by Brahmins or whatever.
  50. @reiner Tor
    https://twitter.com/akarlin88/status/1275203120537223168

    I disagree with this. The point of Kevin MacDonald’s body of work was that Jews as an influential elite group with disproportionate power in certain important fields could put their thumbs on the scale and stop the pendulum in one extreme in perpetuity. Actually the previous bioleninist episodes never had such absolute dominance, nor did they last for so long so universally across the West. It’s a kind of a ratchet where things are going faster in some periods and slower in others, but it never seems to stop. I would also bet that it will, at some point, but there’s no law of nature which says it must. The smaller whites are as a percentage of the population and the elite, the less likely that it will change. Hating an irrelevant small minority or extinct population in perpetuity is possible.

    Because CRT is adding new groups to the elite, like Indian Brahmins and similar, it’s far from guaranteed that this situation would change at all.

    Replies: @sher singh, @iffen, @The Big Red Scary

    Short the Jews, go long on Brahmins, of which there is a huge reservoir. Use Mandarins as a hedge, since there are so many of them that at least some of them will figure out to be smooth-talkers.

    • Agree: reiner Tor, mal
    • Replies: @The Big Red Scary
    @The Big Red Scary

    In fact, as we speak smooth-talking yellow-white babies are being bred in the US, so marquis de posade's meme is right on the money for the hedge.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

    , @Blinky Bill
    @The Big Red Scary


    Short the Jews, go long on Brahmins, of which there is a huge reservoir. Use Mandarins as a hedge
     
    You clearly have a great understanding of Humanity.

    https://youtu.be/A-b7-fLOjlY

  51. @A123
    @Passer by


    Are Europe and Russia are incompatible? Have a say on it.

     

    There is a problematic assumption built into your question. Europe is composed of two incompatible factions:
        • Christian Populist nations, such as Hungary & Poland
        • SJW Islamic Globalist nations, lead by Germany

    Christian Europe and Christian Russian are largely compatible. Getting past some of the history between the USSR and Poland would be worthwhile, but not easy.

    SJW Germany and its "woke" client states oppose traditional Christian values. Thus, Germany and Christian Russia are 100% incompatible.

    European Parliament threatening sanctions on Russia over Belarus.
     
    Christian Poland has a land border with Belarus and physically separates the Baltic nations from the rest of the EU. Russia should cultivate Poland's cooperation (or at least neutrality) to foil the aggressive Merkel/Laschet push for EU annexation of Belarus.

    Why is Putin rewarding Merkel/Laschet with NordStream 2 while Germany's vassal, the EU Parliament, is threatening sanctions? Is there some bit of KGB deviousness that is not yet apparent?

    PEACE 😇

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon, @Rbze, @Thorfinnsson

    Why is Putin rewarding Merkel/Laschet with NordStream 2 while Germany’s vassal, the EU Parliament, is threatening sanctions? Is there some bit of KGB deviousness that is not yet apparent?

    Let me make this as simple as possible for everyone:

    • Agree: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    @Thorfinnsson

    Posting pictures with minimal text and assuming everyone will know what you mean is midwit behaviour.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    , @A123
    @Thorfinnsson

    Putin must have other options to make money.

    Appeasing Germany in the 2020's is identical to appeasing Germany in the late 1930's. It turned out badly for the grovellers back then. And, servicing the SJW's, Merkel & Laschet, will blow up in Putin's face time around.

    PEACE 😇

  52. @Yellowface Anon
    @Anyone with a brain


    The only real anti-inflation asset I see out there is real estate. Precious metal isn’t doing bad but not great. Now that I think of it stocks are a pretty anti-inflationary, but alternative news website readers have a doomer bias and think they will come crashing down soon. The upper classes can avoid inflation because they can afford real estate. The real estate question ties back into the drought question, what happens when overpriced real estate becomes worthless because there is no water. But droughts come and go.

    Honestly the best anti-inflation asset might be potable water, or better yet stock in companies that have purification or desalination technology.
     

    Stocks are anti-inflationary? Only when the Fed wants them to be. Otherwise, after the crash, their core businesses will be nearly wiped out by plummeting purchasing power.

    A lot more things that are productive on an individual level (tools) or barter goods are also anti-inflationary on lesser level. It depends on what anyone want to do during the episode of high inflation, and after that.


    According to science elevated CO2 makes us dumber
     
    Dumber but better for plant-growing. It isn't as innocuous and there has to be trade-offs (even when a persistent trend in global warming is conclusively disproven)

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    Stocks are anti-inflationary? Only when the Fed wants them to be. Otherwise, after the crash, their core businesses will be nearly wiped out by plummeting purchasing power.

    A lot more things that are productive on an individual level (tools) or barter goods are also anti-inflationary on lesser level. It depends on what anyone want to do during the episode of high inflation, and after that.

    Businesses with franchise characteristics (the ability to raise prices with losing marketshare) and modest capital requirements benefit from inflation. Coca Cola is a classic example, and indeed Coca Cola performed very well in the 1970s (though it did this for most of the 20th century regardless of economic conditions).

    Competitive businesses, and especially competitive businesses with high capital requirements, do poorly with high inflation. These businesses have a very limited ability to raise prices and see sharply increasing input costs.

    Lastly, central banks have much less power of this than people think.

    • Replies: @Yellowface Anon
    @Thorfinnsson

    We're talking about much higher inflation than the 1970s and possible currency resets, which will filter out unprepared businesses.

    (Official data is systematically suppressed if you trust Shadowstat or Chapwood Index, so those graphs are weak proofs)

    Nice 2nd post, but we're talking about further-reaching problems than high inflation this time.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

  53. @LondonBob
    @Anyone with a brain

    Equities perform poorly in high inflation, better than most things but they aren't good. Margins get destroyed and disposable income goes on the necessities, only commodities and gold do well, the 1970s was a long and brutal bear market for US equities.

    Replies: @The Big Red Scary, @Thorfinnsson

    Equities as a whole did not perform well during the great inflation of the 1970s, but there were standouts during this period. Teledyne and Coca Cola for instance. And in the mid-1970s a remarkable boom in small-cap stocks, which rose over 13% pa from 1976 – 1983.

    It should also be pointed out that there was a brutal bear market in ’73-74 which put a damper on the period, and equities far outperformed bonds and cash. True enough that the real stars of this period were gold and oil, but there’s no guarantee during inflationary periods that commodities will shine in real terms.

    I also don’t get the picture that people in the 1970s were only spending money on necessities. Look at vintage advertisements of the period–normal consumption continued:

    Today personal luxury coupes (pretty much the opposite of the necessity) barely even exist.

    Remember that it was a period of high inflation, not hyperinflation.

    • Agree: Not Raul
    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Thorfinnsson

    This is a classic picture. It is presented like a diagram, and it could be used to illustrate Adorno's theory of the culture industry.

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/72/82/fa/7282fa93ad58c50b55c65acf204a2d1d.jpg


    Arrangement of the picture is like a circuit diagram, and its format looks more complex than the normal "Pavlovian conditioning" arrangement.

    There is a picture in middle of the animal's "reward" - wedding day with your beautiful girlfriend, run on the beach.

    And at the top, of the older attractive wife looking at you with admiration, remembering your witty comments, as you drive home from a dinner party.

    These pictures are the "reward" for the ape. But we put in front of them the expensive piece of metal, and the difficult to understand instruction or "recipe" text that he has to read.

    Picture of the car and the written instruction is presented as if it XNOR gate. Animal needs to reach the happy people on the beach, anticlockwise, but we imply it can only get to that part of the picture by solving the first picture and the written instruction.

    -

    Although it seems like this advertising requires stupidity to succeed, it's a result of the way we are wired with a bypass for receiving external instructions.

    An octopus would have no problem with these traps, ignoring the metal object, and swimming to its mating ritual. But we have the bypass installed for receiving instructions, even such pitiable ones where Madison Avenue has added diagrams of a mating ritual to include pieces of metal their client wanted to sell.

    Of course, this is not some accident or contradiction to society. It's one of the main raisons d'êtres of 1970s America: very cool automobiles, if downsized by Arab oil embargoes after the Yom Kippur War. Perhaps, god has created us to produce automobiles not happy families.

  54. @iffen
    @reiner Tor

    The point of Kevin MacDonald’s body of work

    I will defer to you if you tell me that you have read him extensively, but my reading of TCOC informs me that his point is that Jews have been (are) successful in intergroup competition because they are better at being a group than others.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    my reading of TCOC informs me that his point is that Jews have been (are) successful in intergroup competition because they are better at being a group than others

    Well, better than elite whites (who are obsessed with their status vis-à-vis their white inferiors, but don’t care for true outgroups like Indian Brahmins – perhaps as a result of their long history of dominating such outgroups with ease?), and also as smart as elite whites. MacDonald also states that Northwest European whites are already susceptible to ideological manias, but those are usually episodic and rarely long term trends. The madness of the French Revolution quickly gave way to a more conservative period lasting decades, and the next era of revolutionary upheavals gave way to a period where elite opinion was strongly influenced by Social Darwinism.

    However, I don’t think Jews will have it good. Eventually they might be considered just another white group. Not only by nonwhites, but also by fanatical SJW whites. I think there were some signs of it already during the last Gaza War.

    One of the possibilities of a return to white supremacism would be to condemn any “historically oppressive” groups, or any groups which aren’t perfectly following the SJW fads of the day. That would actually mean hating on anyone not a white liberal (with the possible exception of some East Asians, but perhaps they could also be hated because of nationalism in their home countries back in East Asia). I mean, Latinos and blacks are not sufficiently accepting of homosexuals, or they are not doing enough for The Environment, etc. But it’s possible that the suicide cult will indeed result in the collapse of the power of whites in the elites, getting replaced by Brahmins or whatever.

  55. @Thorfinnsson
    @A123



    Why is Putin rewarding Merkel/Laschet with NordStream 2 while Germany’s vassal, the EU Parliament, is threatening sanctions? Is there some bit of KGB deviousness that is not yet apparent?
     
    Let me make this as simple as possible for everyone:

    https://feastoffun.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/scrooge_mcduck.jpeg

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @A123

    Posting pictures with minimal text and assuming everyone will know what you mean is midwit behaviour.

    • LOL: Bashibuzuk
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Blinky Bill

    Sad!

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

  56. @Blinky Bill
    @Thorfinnsson

    Posting pictures with minimal text and assuming everyone will know what you mean is midwit behaviour.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    Sad!

    • LOL: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    @reiner Tor

    Especially if you post multiple pictures in succession while using the more function! 😂😂😂😂



    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/cmp-2021/#comment-4558431

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/cmp-2021/#comment-4560946

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/cmp-2021/#comment-4558852

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/cmp-2021/#comment-4558355

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/7-years-on-ukraines-economy-fails-to-impress/#comment-4706492

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/geography-of-ukraine-iq/#comment-4709204

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/7-years-on-ukraines-economy-fails-to-impress/#comment-4706681

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-152/#comment-4706627

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/7-years-on-ukraines-economy-fails-to-impress/#comment-4706566

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/open-thread-151/#comment-4693142

  57. @Rbze
    @Yellowface Anon

    Wrong. Upper middle is 100% on the same team as elite. And the other races do not matter. They are only pawns in the American white class war.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon

    They’re on the same team, but the upper-middle class is sincere while the elites understands the true intention.

    And who can be sure the Blacks won’t fall from grace once their systemic dominance is secured, since critical race theory is a phantom that will always find new classes of the oppressed to overturn the newly found Black privilege? It is racial-cultural perpetual revolution.

  58. @Anatoly Karlin
    @The Big Red Scary

    It was prestigious for Old Bolsheviks to marry women of the former aristocracy, so there was some continuity even there (much less so for men ofc).

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @reiner Tor

    It was still very bad for them as a group. So supporting the Revolution was a suicidal thing for those who did so. Probably it’s not much better supporting CRT for white elites.

  59. @Thorfinnsson
    @Yellowface Anon



    Stocks are anti-inflationary? Only when the Fed wants them to be. Otherwise, after the crash, their core businesses will be nearly wiped out by plummeting purchasing power.

    A lot more things that are productive on an individual level (tools) or barter goods are also anti-inflationary on lesser level. It depends on what anyone want to do during the episode of high inflation, and after that.
     
    Businesses with franchise characteristics (the ability to raise prices with losing marketshare) and modest capital requirements benefit from inflation. Coca Cola is a classic example, and indeed Coca Cola performed very well in the 1970s (though it did this for most of the 20th century regardless of economic conditions).

    Competitive businesses, and especially competitive businesses with high capital requirements, do poorly with high inflation. These businesses have a very limited ability to raise prices and see sharply increasing input costs.

    Lastly, central banks have much less power of this than people think.

    https://equitablegrowth.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/inflation-target-alt.png

    https://d3n8a8pro7vhmx.cloudfront.net/qe4people/pages/105/attachments/original/1473406553/inflation_forecasts.jpg?1473406553

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon

    We’re talking about much higher inflation than the 1970s and possible currency resets, which will filter out unprepared businesses.

    (Official data is systematically suppressed if you trust Shadowstat or Chapwood Index, so those graphs are weak proofs)

    Nice 2nd post, but we’re talking about further-reaching problems than high inflation this time.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @Yellowface Anon

    Real Soon Now

    It's worth pointing out that Shadowstat has charged the same nominal price for its subscription service since it launched.

    There was a sharp increase of M2 money supply (and this is the monetary indicator correlated with increases in inflation in Friedman's 1960s research) in response to the pandemic, but the rate of growth has since stabilized. Most of the reported inflation thus far has been driven by a limited number of reopening sectors and the global semiconductor shortage.

    See this Barron's article: https://www.barrons.com/articles/dont-be-fooled-by-aprils-inflation-jump-its-being-driven-by-reopening-quirks-51620847392

    A breakout of 1970s inflation, which was more driven by political factors than monetary ones, does not strike me as likely at this point. Hyperinflation isn't on my radar at all. We'll see what happens as the reopening continues. May inflation was also high, but down from April.

    Many people in the hard money, dissident, and doomerist crowd have been predicting currency collapse for my entire lifetime. Actually, long before I was born. When does shame set in?

    That said, it does seem that the wheels have started to come off on fiscal responsibility in the last few years. As the likely response to every crisis is now massive stimulus, perhaps something will give in the future.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Boomthorkell

  60. @The Big Red Scary
    @reiner Tor

    Short the Jews, go long on Brahmins, of which there is a huge reservoir. Use Mandarins as a hedge, since there are so many of them that at least some of them will figure out to be smooth-talkers.

    Replies: @The Big Red Scary, @Blinky Bill

    In fact, as we speak smooth-talking yellow-white babies are being bred in the US, so marquis de posade’s meme is right on the money for the hedge.

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    @The Big Red Scary

    https://youtu.be/isHvU9cVvAw

    https://youtu.be/6dw5LDXqm1Y

  61. GMC says:
    @UNIT472
    Climate- The Western US is in a severe drought. Tree ring studies ( and California has tree rings that go back to when Julius Caesar ruled) show these are episodic but can last for a century or more. It also happens that Brazil is experiencing a severe drought. Good news for Florida orange growers I suppose but not for many others especially Las Vegas.

    Nevada was known for earlier Boom turned to Bust turned to Ghost Towns but never anything the size of a Las Vegas but if the Colorado river turns into the Colorado creek or a dry river bed in the coming years Las Vegas can't continue to exist. There is no other water source that can sustain a city of 2 million people plus the tourists.

    It may not be 'rising sea levels' that are the problem but falling ground water levels that are devastating.

    Replies: @Svevlad, @GMC, @Boomthorkell

    During the Alaskan pipelines years there was Governor Wally Hickel, who was always thinking of things that the northern areas had but some in the lower 48 didn’t. He proposed a water pipeline heading south to California several times and was laughed off the stage by the Feds. He said Canada could join in and add some to the pipeline. , since he saw a shortage coming , back in the 70s. The USG has been so dysfunctional when it comes to avoiding future problems, that even that town Flint Mich has no decent water , and it’s been a decade. It’s not the US Gov and never was – it was always the NWO scam. Every Fed government employee, in it for themselves.

  62. @The Big Red Scary
    @The Big Red Scary

    In fact, as we speak smooth-talking yellow-white babies are being bred in the US, so marquis de posade's meme is right on the money for the hedge.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

    [MORE]

  63. @Yellowface Anon
    @Thorfinnsson

    We're talking about much higher inflation than the 1970s and possible currency resets, which will filter out unprepared businesses.

    (Official data is systematically suppressed if you trust Shadowstat or Chapwood Index, so those graphs are weak proofs)

    Nice 2nd post, but we're talking about further-reaching problems than high inflation this time.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    Real Soon Now

    It’s worth pointing out that Shadowstat has charged the same nominal price for its subscription service since it launched.

    There was a sharp increase of M2 money supply (and this is the monetary indicator correlated with increases in inflation in Friedman’s 1960s research) in response to the pandemic, but the rate of growth has since stabilized. Most of the reported inflation thus far has been driven by a limited number of reopening sectors and the global semiconductor shortage.

    See this Barron’s article: https://www.barrons.com/articles/dont-be-fooled-by-aprils-inflation-jump-its-being-driven-by-reopening-quirks-51620847392

    A breakout of 1970s inflation, which was more driven by political factors than monetary ones, does not strike me as likely at this point. Hyperinflation isn’t on my radar at all. We’ll see what happens as the reopening continues. May inflation was also high, but down from April.

    Many people in the hard money, dissident, and doomerist crowd have been predicting currency collapse for my entire lifetime. Actually, long before I was born. When does shame set in?

    That said, it does seem that the wheels have started to come off on fiscal responsibility in the last few years. As the likely response to every crisis is now massive stimulus, perhaps something will give in the future.

    • Thanks: Triteleia Laxa
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Thorfinnsson

    How much new money was created because of the covid pandemic in the US? 2-3 trillion?

    How much more does Biden want to print to fund his ambitious infrastructure plans? 3 trillion.

    This kind of spending and creation of money is unprecedented in my lifetime How can you be so sure that this sort of spending wont eventually translate into hyper inflation? Isn't it interesting that most people claim that paying a mortgage or rent accounts for the largest part of their monthly budget, yet the incredible rise in home prices is not included within the calculation of the CPI?

    Replies: @mal

    , @Boomthorkell
    @Thorfinnsson

    America's currency will collapse, but it takes a very specific line up of domestic and geopolitical events that haven't happened or reached their full maturation yet. It would take a large dedollarization of oil (while steps are being taken, it is obviously not the case yet) and\or some kind of mass calamity (the current crisis not really counting.) Otherwise, the system is able to print its way out of anything, with little actual issue that would affect those doing the printing and for whom it is done (I.e., not the majority of people.)

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon

  64. @UNIT472
    Climate- The Western US is in a severe drought. Tree ring studies ( and California has tree rings that go back to when Julius Caesar ruled) show these are episodic but can last for a century or more. It also happens that Brazil is experiencing a severe drought. Good news for Florida orange growers I suppose but not for many others especially Las Vegas.

    Nevada was known for earlier Boom turned to Bust turned to Ghost Towns but never anything the size of a Las Vegas but if the Colorado river turns into the Colorado creek or a dry river bed in the coming years Las Vegas can't continue to exist. There is no other water source that can sustain a city of 2 million people plus the tourists.

    It may not be 'rising sea levels' that are the problem but falling ground water levels that are devastating.

    Replies: @Svevlad, @GMC, @Boomthorkell

    I strongly believe the US, federally and locally, should strictly regulate water use and population in the South Western states. It is insane, driving through Utah, seeing golf courses rising out of the pink dust. That the Colorado river now doesn’t make it to the Gulf of Mexico is criminal overuseage and wastage.

    Is this finally affecting Vegas?

    • Agree: Not Raul
  65. @Thorfinnsson
    @Yellowface Anon

    Real Soon Now

    It's worth pointing out that Shadowstat has charged the same nominal price for its subscription service since it launched.

    There was a sharp increase of M2 money supply (and this is the monetary indicator correlated with increases in inflation in Friedman's 1960s research) in response to the pandemic, but the rate of growth has since stabilized. Most of the reported inflation thus far has been driven by a limited number of reopening sectors and the global semiconductor shortage.

    See this Barron's article: https://www.barrons.com/articles/dont-be-fooled-by-aprils-inflation-jump-its-being-driven-by-reopening-quirks-51620847392

    A breakout of 1970s inflation, which was more driven by political factors than monetary ones, does not strike me as likely at this point. Hyperinflation isn't on my radar at all. We'll see what happens as the reopening continues. May inflation was also high, but down from April.

    Many people in the hard money, dissident, and doomerist crowd have been predicting currency collapse for my entire lifetime. Actually, long before I was born. When does shame set in?

    That said, it does seem that the wheels have started to come off on fiscal responsibility in the last few years. As the likely response to every crisis is now massive stimulus, perhaps something will give in the future.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Boomthorkell

    How much new money was created because of the covid pandemic in the US? 2-3 trillion?

    How much more does Biden want to print to fund his ambitious infrastructure plans? 3 trillion.

    This kind of spending and creation of money is unprecedented in my lifetime How can you be so sure that this sort of spending wont eventually translate into hyper inflation? Isn’t it interesting that most people claim that paying a mortgage or rent accounts for the largest part of their monthly budget, yet the incredible rise in home prices is not included within the calculation of the CPI?

    • Replies: @mal
    @Mr. Hack

    Sub 1.5% 10 year Treasury is telling us people fear deflationary recession (once stimulus support expires and supply chains recover) far more than they fear hyperinflation.

    From what I have seen, the biggest component of high CPI print has to do with cars (rental companies went bankrupt during pandemic and are now scrambling to rebuild their fleets), and this is very temporary.

    Something similar happened in 2009 with Cash for Clunkers - government paid you to buy a new car. Sales jumped for a time and then declined. I expect car demand to decline shortly, which will drop CPI back below 2%.

    As far as housing goes, rising prices make homeowners feel good, and investors such as Blackrock, and also mortgage backed securities traders rich. It does hurt poor people but they don't count on the account of being poor.

  66. @Thorfinnsson
    @Yellowface Anon

    Real Soon Now

    It's worth pointing out that Shadowstat has charged the same nominal price for its subscription service since it launched.

    There was a sharp increase of M2 money supply (and this is the monetary indicator correlated with increases in inflation in Friedman's 1960s research) in response to the pandemic, but the rate of growth has since stabilized. Most of the reported inflation thus far has been driven by a limited number of reopening sectors and the global semiconductor shortage.

    See this Barron's article: https://www.barrons.com/articles/dont-be-fooled-by-aprils-inflation-jump-its-being-driven-by-reopening-quirks-51620847392

    A breakout of 1970s inflation, which was more driven by political factors than monetary ones, does not strike me as likely at this point. Hyperinflation isn't on my radar at all. We'll see what happens as the reopening continues. May inflation was also high, but down from April.

    Many people in the hard money, dissident, and doomerist crowd have been predicting currency collapse for my entire lifetime. Actually, long before I was born. When does shame set in?

    That said, it does seem that the wheels have started to come off on fiscal responsibility in the last few years. As the likely response to every crisis is now massive stimulus, perhaps something will give in the future.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Boomthorkell

    America’s currency will collapse, but it takes a very specific line up of domestic and geopolitical events that haven’t happened or reached their full maturation yet. It would take a large dedollarization of oil (while steps are being taken, it is obviously not the case yet) and\or some kind of mass calamity (the current crisis not really counting.) Otherwise, the system is able to print its way out of anything, with little actual issue that would affect those doing the printing and for whom it is done (I.e., not the majority of people.)

    • Thanks: Yellowface Anon
    • Replies: @Yellowface Anon
    @Boomthorkell

    UBI & infrastructure spending + actual productive capacities being rapidly shuffled and replaced (devalorization of capital) + domestic and international de-dollarization + quasi-civil war & international full-spectrum warfare = ...
    (And we aren't speaking of currency resets, which can happen without serious inflation or any of the above. It only takes political will and enforcement)

  67. @Boomthorkell
    @Thorfinnsson

    America's currency will collapse, but it takes a very specific line up of domestic and geopolitical events that haven't happened or reached their full maturation yet. It would take a large dedollarization of oil (while steps are being taken, it is obviously not the case yet) and\or some kind of mass calamity (the current crisis not really counting.) Otherwise, the system is able to print its way out of anything, with little actual issue that would affect those doing the printing and for whom it is done (I.e., not the majority of people.)

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon

    UBI & infrastructure spending + actual productive capacities being rapidly shuffled and replaced (devalorization of capital) + domestic and international de-dollarization + quasi-civil war & international full-spectrum warfare = …
    (And we aren’t speaking of currency resets, which can happen without serious inflation or any of the above. It only takes political will and enforcement)

  68. Slightly late humor.

    https://twitter.com/drefanzor/status/1403759636101025793/video/1

    [MORE]

    The whole stand should sink into the sand!

  69. utu says:
    @Brás Cubas
    @Anatoly Karlin


    so long as they don’t drink the Kool-Aid and do things like move into Black neighborhoods in solidarity
     
    You are deluding yourself. Progressives' aim is to end "neighborhoods" altogether. They are tantamount to segregation in their view. So, should their kool-aid work, they won't need to move into black neighborhoods, because black neighborhoods will move into them. (I say this as a mere analyst, without any personal predisposition against such an outcome.)

    You try to reconcile nationalism and IQism. It's impossible. Nationalism is a defense of an ethnic group. It makes no difference to nationalists whether their ethnic group is high IQ or low IQ. They will defend it anyway.

    Replies: @utu

    You try to reconcile nationalism and IQism. – No, he does not. To be a nationalist you must love your people. His previous post revealed that he hates Russians just like Hitler hated Germans in 1945 because they did no meet his expectations. Karlin believes that 90% of Russians are idiots because they did not accept Putin’s magnanimous generosity of flooding the whole of Russia with free flu vaccines though he forgets to mention that Putin so far release enough vaccine to vaccinated 10% of Russians only. If tomorrow the 90% all died he would be happy because the remaining 10% of vaccinated could enjoy their life.

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/dying-from-corona-in-russia/#comment-4717233
    I am now just as fine with “everyone else” dying, hopefully the sooner the better, so that my local food court and gym stops closing down whenever there’s a new wave (like both have just today) and reducing my quality of life.

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    @utu


    His previous post revealed that he hates Russians just like Hitler hated Germans
     
    Not sure if you're taking the piss or drinking the Anti Karlin Kool-Aid. 😂😂😂😂


    https://twitter.com/Delhiite_/status/1399768830474215428?s=20
    , @Brás Cubas
    @utu

    I agree with nearly everything your wrote, but I don't understand why you think what you say implies he is not trying (unsuccessfully) to reconcile Nationalism and IQism. He explicitly explained that (perhaps in somewhat different terms) in an earlier text:

    Nationalism Is Implicitly Transhumanist
    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/transhumanism-2/

    Aside from that, the only other point on which I disagree with you is your overconfidence that Putin has provided vaccines for only 10% of the Russian population; I took you up on that point in another comment:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/dying-from-corona-in-russia/#comment-4717608

    Replies: @utu

    , @Anatoly Karlin
    @utu

    I wish better for Russians than other peoples, but my consistent principle has always been that idiocy must always be brutally punished. They deserved the consequences of 1917, they deserved the consequences of 1991, and (albeit on a drastically smaller overall scale) some of those who made incorrect choices in the past few months will have to live, or in many cases die, with the consequences of those choices. At this point, I consider my personal convenience (e.g. uninterrupted access to gym, food court, park benches) vastly more important than their lives or welfare, which they evidently don't value much themselves. That is, in short, I have come to the rightoid way of "thinking" on this matter - now that, unlike in 2020, most people outside the Third World now have a choice on whether they want to get Corona or not.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @utu

  70. @Passer by
    Are Europe and Russia are incompatible? Have a say on it.

    European Parliament threatening sanctions on Russia over Belarus.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwpkIO2GkgE&feature=emb_title

    Less and less Russians see themselves as european.

    https://www.rt.com/russia/519115-european-identity-collapsing-youth/

    Replies: @A123, @Daniel Chieh

    Less and less Russians see themselves as european.

    Fewer! Russians are a countable entity!

    …I think.

    • Agree: reiner Tor, Not Raul
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Daniel Chieh

    Ein Volk, ein Reich, eine Grammatik!

  71. @Daniel Chieh
    @Passer by


    Less and less Russians see themselves as european.
     
    Fewer! Russians are a countable entity!

    ...I think.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    Ein Volk, ein Reich, eine Grammatik!

    • Agree: Daniel Chieh
  72. @utu
    @Brás Cubas

    You try to reconcile nationalism and IQism. - No, he does not. To be a nationalist you must love your people. His previous post revealed that he hates Russians just like Hitler hated Germans in 1945 because they did no meet his expectations. Karlin believes that 90% of Russians are idiots because they did not accept Putin's magnanimous generosity of flooding the whole of Russia with free flu vaccines though he forgets to mention that Putin so far release enough vaccine to vaccinated 10% of Russians only. If tomorrow the 90% all died he would be happy because the remaining 10% of vaccinated could enjoy their life.


    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/dying-from-corona-in-russia/#comment-4717233
    I am now just as fine with “everyone else” dying, hopefully the sooner the better, so that my local food court and gym stops closing down whenever there’s a new wave (like both have just today) and reducing my quality of life.
     

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @Brás Cubas, @Anatoly Karlin

    His previous post revealed that he hates Russians just like Hitler hated Germans

    Not sure if you’re taking the piss or drinking the Anti Karlin Kool-Aid. 😂😂😂😂

    [MORE]

  73. @utu
    @Brás Cubas

    You try to reconcile nationalism and IQism. - No, he does not. To be a nationalist you must love your people. His previous post revealed that he hates Russians just like Hitler hated Germans in 1945 because they did no meet his expectations. Karlin believes that 90% of Russians are idiots because they did not accept Putin's magnanimous generosity of flooding the whole of Russia with free flu vaccines though he forgets to mention that Putin so far release enough vaccine to vaccinated 10% of Russians only. If tomorrow the 90% all died he would be happy because the remaining 10% of vaccinated could enjoy their life.


    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/dying-from-corona-in-russia/#comment-4717233
    I am now just as fine with “everyone else” dying, hopefully the sooner the better, so that my local food court and gym stops closing down whenever there’s a new wave (like both have just today) and reducing my quality of life.
     

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @Brás Cubas, @Anatoly Karlin

    I agree with nearly everything your wrote, but I don’t understand why you think what you say implies he is not trying (unsuccessfully) to reconcile Nationalism and IQism. He explicitly explained that (perhaps in somewhat different terms) in an earlier text:

    Nationalism Is Implicitly Transhumanist
    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/transhumanism-2/

    Aside from that, the only other point on which I disagree with you is your overconfidence that Putin has provided vaccines for only 10% of the Russian population; I took you up on that point in another comment:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/dying-from-corona-in-russia/#comment-4717608

    • Replies: @utu
    @Brás Cubas


    that Putin has provided vaccines for only 10% of the Russian population
     
    Putin promised 700 milion vaccines to the world while by mid May they managed to produce 33 million only out of which 15 million was exported.

    COVID-19 vaccine: Here’s why Russia is struggling to make Sputnik V doses (May 14, 2021)
    https://www.businesstoday.in/sectors/pharma/covid-19-vaccine-here-why-russia-is-struggling-to-make-sputnik-v-doses/story/439057.html

    President Vladimir Putin has trumpeted the vaccine around the world, and said in March that Russia had signed agreements for the production of 700 million doses of Sputnik V vaccine abroad. But Russia had produced just 33 million vaccines as of May 12 and exported fewer than 15 million, according to a Reuters tally that counted each vaccine as consisting of two doses.
     
    33-15=18 million vaccines is 12.5% of Russia population. One month later vaccination in Russia is at 10% level.

    https://gogov.ru/articles/covid-v-stats
    Статистика вакцинации от коронавируса в России

    На сегодня (13.06.21):
    18 532 029 чел. (12.68% от населения, 26.86% от плана**) - привито хотя бы одним компонентом вакцины
    14 329 726 чел. (9.8% от населения, 20.77% от плана**) - полностью привито
     
    You must account for logistic delays between production and vaccination. Between May 13 and Jun 13 (see the graph in the link) they vaccinated (2nd dose) 5 million.

    It is easy to imagine that the greedy, cynical and conniving Kremlin elite wants to sell more of its vaccine for the hard currency under the guise of political objective of improving Russia image and rubbing America's nose. Is it possible that the same elite who just cares as much about Russians as Karlin does in his incontinent comments created an appearance of vaccine oversupply to be able to blame regular Russians for being ignorant obscurants who do not want to be vaccinated and they can add the argument that Russians do not need or deserve vaccine because they are stupid. Keep in mind that the same elite is behind cynical anti-vaxxing campaign in the West that is going for years.

    Weaponized Health Communication: Twitter Bots and Russian Trolls Amplify the Vaccine Debate (2018 October)
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6137759/
     
    They know what anti-vaxxers are and how to manufacture them. Possibly they can produce them faster than they can produce vaccine, so they can sell more vaccines for $Bucks.
  74. @utu
    @Brás Cubas

    You try to reconcile nationalism and IQism. - No, he does not. To be a nationalist you must love your people. His previous post revealed that he hates Russians just like Hitler hated Germans in 1945 because they did no meet his expectations. Karlin believes that 90% of Russians are idiots because they did not accept Putin's magnanimous generosity of flooding the whole of Russia with free flu vaccines though he forgets to mention that Putin so far release enough vaccine to vaccinated 10% of Russians only. If tomorrow the 90% all died he would be happy because the remaining 10% of vaccinated could enjoy their life.


    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/dying-from-corona-in-russia/#comment-4717233
    I am now just as fine with “everyone else” dying, hopefully the sooner the better, so that my local food court and gym stops closing down whenever there’s a new wave (like both have just today) and reducing my quality of life.
     

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @Brás Cubas, @Anatoly Karlin

    I wish better for Russians than other peoples, but my consistent principle has always been that idiocy must always be brutally punished. They deserved the consequences of 1917, they deserved the consequences of 1991, and (albeit on a drastically smaller overall scale) some of those who made incorrect choices in the past few months will have to live, or in many cases die, with the consequences of those choices. At this point, I consider my personal convenience (e.g. uninterrupted access to gym, food court, park benches) vastly more important than their lives or welfare, which they evidently don’t value much themselves. That is, in short, I have come to the rightoid way of “thinking” on this matter – now that, unlike in 2020, most people outside the Third World now have a choice on whether they want to get Corona or not.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Anatoly Karlin


    I wish better for Russians than other peoples, but my consistent principle has always been that idiocy must always be brutally punished. They deserved the consequences of 1917, they deserved the consequences of 1991
     
    Few younger people seem to know that there were many people who really believed in Communism and Socialism as scientifical truths, which were inevitable on the road of progress, later during the Brezhnev era most commies lost their faith and became cynics, but before him and his gerontocracy, vast majority of them tuly believed that they were possessors and guardians of scientific truths. From such perspective Lenin's and Stalin's policies were purely rational and repression was just punishing of people who were against progress, in other words such people who dared to threaten inevitable scientific progress, were backward idiots and punishing of them in the name of the progress was just for the benefit of the Soviet Russian nation.

    Sadly I now notice that this same spirit, which animated inhuman Bolshevik policies, is still alive in some Russians. Only fools think that bolshies did their crimes because of some metaphysical evilness or twisted pseudo-religiosity, no, not at all, commies just saw that they are more rational than others, that they were just doing what was historical and rational inevitability and necessity.

    Merry sunday everybody!

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin, @Bashibuzuk

    , @utu
    @Anatoly Karlin


    my consistent principle has always been that idiocy must always be brutally punished
     

    At this point, I consider my personal convenience (e.g. uninterrupted access to gym, food court, park benches) vastly more important than their lives or welfare
     

    I have come to the rightoid way of “thinking”
     
    Get a hold of yourself. They, the people you are talking about are people not figures in a video game. Snap out of it. Try to be a mensch not a punk who makes incontinent pronouncements when frustrated.

    And most importantly we should not forget that your premise that dying is optional in Russia is false. The supply of vaccine is on the level of vaccination with small positive margin that is left there to create a false impression of oversupply and the meme, on which you seem to work very hard, that Russians do not want to get vaccinated. Let's' look at stats in July and September and you will see that Russians will be getting vaccinated unless Kremlin decides to sell all vaccines abroad.
  75. @Svevlad
    I've started a no grain diet. Aka minimum to no bread at all or rice, even potatoes. Just meat, dairy, fruits and vegetables. Gotta say - it's pretty good.

    Replies: @Morton's toes

    What is the substitute for chocolate chip cookies?

    I can do without the rest but I have wracked my brain for close to two years and have been unable to crack this nut. : (

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Morton's toes

    Good Salo!

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

    , @Daniel Chieh
    @Morton's toes

    Solid dark chocolates?

    , @Svevlad
    @Morton's toes

    as someone who has a bit of a sweet tooth myself - i got a compromise solution:

    since carbs and basic sugar is quickly processed, and results in a sudden burst of activity - i only eat it when i go on my daily walks, or before exercising. This nips the insulin spike induced slowness right in the bud (something very important to me as a type 1 diabetic - since basically every goddamn meal results in an insulin spike due to the nature of how insulin injections work).

    tldr use chocochip cookies to power your workouts

    Replies: @Morton's toes

    , @notanon
    @Morton's toes

    use them for workouts, long hikes etc

  76. @AP
    @AltanBakshi

    Clark showed that (after a period of turbulence) descendants of old elites are even now richer than average in Communist China. There has been no study in Russia but I suspect a similar phenomena. Among elite Russians I know, one sees things like descent from a priest who hid his former vocation, a merchant family from the Volga who moved to Baku after the Revolution to become proles down there as a way of “laundering” their former status before returning to another Russian region where they and their descendent had brilliant careers ( including in the Party itself lol), etc.

    There was certainly disruption and many talented people were needlessly killed, but the survivors found ways to eventually succeed.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @The Big Red Scary, @Another German Reader, @Not Raul

    Politics is always personal. Politics is always tribal/class based. Names, Flags, Hymn and The Narrative change, but people won’t.

    Many of the Communist leaders (Ho Chi Minh, Giap et co.) and local Vietminh/Vietcong commanders are from the lower elite/upper-middle class – the rural mandarins, who lost status/income when the French colonial administration finally remove the vestiges of the Imperial feudal system. They became the new elites after 1954/75 and never looked back.

    Turbulences -if they they do not reach Ghingis Khan-level- only hit the upper elites (who could not go into exile early enough) and portion of the upper middle-class. Portions of the lower middle-class benefit great from the new system as they are going to get those new middle-management positions.

  77. @Anatoly Karlin
    @utu

    I wish better for Russians than other peoples, but my consistent principle has always been that idiocy must always be brutally punished. They deserved the consequences of 1917, they deserved the consequences of 1991, and (albeit on a drastically smaller overall scale) some of those who made incorrect choices in the past few months will have to live, or in many cases die, with the consequences of those choices. At this point, I consider my personal convenience (e.g. uninterrupted access to gym, food court, park benches) vastly more important than their lives or welfare, which they evidently don't value much themselves. That is, in short, I have come to the rightoid way of "thinking" on this matter - now that, unlike in 2020, most people outside the Third World now have a choice on whether they want to get Corona or not.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @utu

    I wish better for Russians than other peoples, but my consistent principle has always been that idiocy must always be brutally punished. They deserved the consequences of 1917, they deserved the consequences of 1991

    Few younger people seem to know that there were many people who really believed in Communism and Socialism as scientifical truths, which were inevitable on the road of progress, later during the Brezhnev era most commies lost their faith and became cynics, but before him and his gerontocracy, vast majority of them tuly believed that they were possessors and guardians of scientific truths. From such perspective Lenin’s and Stalin’s policies were purely rational and repression was just punishing of people who were against progress, in other words such people who dared to threaten inevitable scientific progress, were backward idiots and punishing of them in the name of the progress was just for the benefit of the Soviet Russian nation.

    Sadly I now notice that this same spirit, which animated inhuman Bolshevik policies, is still alive in some Russians. Only fools think that bolshies did their crimes because of some metaphysical evilness or twisted pseudo-religiosity, no, not at all, commies just saw that they are more rational than others, that they were just doing what was historical and rational inevitability and necessity.

    Merry sunday everybody!

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk, Triteleia Laxa
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    @AltanBakshi

    Since the Communism of today is Western Supremacism, it is quite likely that I will be amongst the brutally punished if it wins.

    However, it would not mean that I wouldn't deserve it.

    , @Bashibuzuk
    @AltanBakshi

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/7d/1d/1d/7d1d1d84b6f3dac79b1235b02302449e.png


    https://cs11.pikabu.ru/images/big_size_comm/2020-06_6/1593503325123086016.jpg


    https://cdn.fishki.net/upload/post/2020/10/23/3454511/1603420236132243197.jpg

  78. @Morton's toes
    @Svevlad

    What is the substitute for chocolate chip cookies?

    I can do without the rest but I have wracked my brain for close to two years and have been unable to crack this nut. : (

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Daniel Chieh, @Svevlad, @notanon

    Good Salo!

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    @AltanBakshi

    https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/SpcAAOSwuxFY2U~o/s-l300.jpg

    https://www.blivenlawfirm.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/bigstock-Dried-Salted-Fish-Vobla-Lies-O-305566933.jpg

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  79. @Morton's toes
    @Svevlad

    What is the substitute for chocolate chip cookies?

    I can do without the rest but I have wracked my brain for close to two years and have been unable to crack this nut. : (

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Daniel Chieh, @Svevlad, @notanon

    Solid dark chocolates?

  80. @Thorfinnsson
    @A123



    Why is Putin rewarding Merkel/Laschet with NordStream 2 while Germany’s vassal, the EU Parliament, is threatening sanctions? Is there some bit of KGB deviousness that is not yet apparent?
     
    Let me make this as simple as possible for everyone:

    https://feastoffun.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/scrooge_mcduck.jpeg

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @A123

    Putin must have other options to make money.

    Appeasing Germany in the 2020’s is identical to appeasing Germany in the late 1930’s. It turned out badly for the grovellers back then. And, servicing the SJW’s, Merkel & Laschet, will blow up in Putin’s face time around.

    PEACE 😇

    • Troll: Not Raul
  81. @AltanBakshi
    @Anatoly Karlin


    I wish better for Russians than other peoples, but my consistent principle has always been that idiocy must always be brutally punished. They deserved the consequences of 1917, they deserved the consequences of 1991
     
    Few younger people seem to know that there were many people who really believed in Communism and Socialism as scientifical truths, which were inevitable on the road of progress, later during the Brezhnev era most commies lost their faith and became cynics, but before him and his gerontocracy, vast majority of them tuly believed that they were possessors and guardians of scientific truths. From such perspective Lenin's and Stalin's policies were purely rational and repression was just punishing of people who were against progress, in other words such people who dared to threaten inevitable scientific progress, were backward idiots and punishing of them in the name of the progress was just for the benefit of the Soviet Russian nation.

    Sadly I now notice that this same spirit, which animated inhuman Bolshevik policies, is still alive in some Russians. Only fools think that bolshies did their crimes because of some metaphysical evilness or twisted pseudo-religiosity, no, not at all, commies just saw that they are more rational than others, that they were just doing what was historical and rational inevitability and necessity.

    Merry sunday everybody!

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin, @Bashibuzuk

    Since the Communism of today is Western Supremacism, it is quite likely that I will be amongst the brutally punished if it wins.

    However, it would not mean that I wouldn’t deserve it.

  82. On another note, @devarbol does point out that McMeekin performs a useful service in highlighting that American elite anti-Communism only began after WW2.

    Is that actually true? I don’t believe so.

    The first Red Scare took off in 1919.

    https://timesmachine.nytimes.com/timesmachine/1919/02/05/97069134.pdf

    During WW 2, the USA supported the USSR; but that was a temporary marriage of convenience.

    • Replies: @Mitleser
    @Not Raul

    This Red Scare did not seem to have lasted long, though.

    https://twitter.com/CandideIII/status/1399827111548919808

    Replies: @Not Raul

  83. @Morton's toes
    @Svevlad

    What is the substitute for chocolate chip cookies?

    I can do without the rest but I have wracked my brain for close to two years and have been unable to crack this nut. : (

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Daniel Chieh, @Svevlad, @notanon

    as someone who has a bit of a sweet tooth myself – i got a compromise solution:

    since carbs and basic sugar is quickly processed, and results in a sudden burst of activity – i only eat it when i go on my daily walks, or before exercising. This nips the insulin spike induced slowness right in the bud (something very important to me as a type 1 diabetic – since basically every goddamn meal results in an insulin spike due to the nature of how insulin injections work).

    tldr use chocochip cookies to power your workouts

    • Replies: @Morton's toes
    @Svevlad

    OK.

    You and the other fellow and I may be in agreement here. Chocolate chip cookies are only one step in power below vagina. Only Marcus Aurelius could resist and even he not absolutely.

  84. utu says:
    @Brás Cubas
    @utu

    I agree with nearly everything your wrote, but I don't understand why you think what you say implies he is not trying (unsuccessfully) to reconcile Nationalism and IQism. He explicitly explained that (perhaps in somewhat different terms) in an earlier text:

    Nationalism Is Implicitly Transhumanist
    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/transhumanism-2/

    Aside from that, the only other point on which I disagree with you is your overconfidence that Putin has provided vaccines for only 10% of the Russian population; I took you up on that point in another comment:

    https://www.unz.com/akarlin/dying-from-corona-in-russia/#comment-4717608

    Replies: @utu

    that Putin has provided vaccines for only 10% of the Russian population

    Putin promised 700 milion vaccines to the world while by mid May they managed to produce 33 million only out of which 15 million was exported.

    COVID-19 vaccine: Here’s why Russia is struggling to make Sputnik V doses (May 14, 2021)
    https://www.businesstoday.in/sectors/pharma/covid-19-vaccine-here-why-russia-is-struggling-to-make-sputnik-v-doses/story/439057.html

    President Vladimir Putin has trumpeted the vaccine around the world, and said in March that Russia had signed agreements for the production of 700 million doses of Sputnik V vaccine abroad. But Russia had produced just 33 million vaccines as of May 12 and exported fewer than 15 million, according to a Reuters tally that counted each vaccine as consisting of two doses.

    33-15=18 million vaccines is 12.5% of Russia population. One month later vaccination in Russia is at 10% level.

    https://gogov.ru/articles/covid-v-stats
    Статистика вакцинации от коронавируса в России

    На сегодня (13.06.21):
    18 532 029 чел. (12.68% от населения, 26.86% от плана**) – привито хотя бы одним компонентом вакцины
    14 329 726 чел. (9.8% от населения, 20.77% от плана**) – полностью привито

    You must account for logistic delays between production and vaccination. Between May 13 and Jun 13 (see the graph in the link) they vaccinated (2nd dose) 5 million.

    It is easy to imagine that the greedy, cynical and conniving Kremlin elite wants to sell more of its vaccine for the hard currency under the guise of political objective of improving Russia image and rubbing America’s nose. Is it possible that the same elite who just cares as much about Russians as Karlin does in his incontinent comments created an appearance of vaccine oversupply to be able to blame regular Russians for being ignorant obscurants who do not want to be vaccinated and they can add the argument that Russians do not need or deserve vaccine because they are stupid. Keep in mind that the same elite is behind cynical anti-vaxxing campaign in the West that is going for years.

    Weaponized Health Communication: Twitter Bots and Russian Trolls Amplify the Vaccine Debate (2018 October)
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6137759/

    They know what anti-vaxxers are and how to manufacture them. Possibly they can produce them faster than they can produce vaccine, so they can sell more vaccines for $Bucks.

    • Thanks: Yellowface Anon
  85. @AP
    @AltanBakshi

    Clark showed that (after a period of turbulence) descendants of old elites are even now richer than average in Communist China. There has been no study in Russia but I suspect a similar phenomena. Among elite Russians I know, one sees things like descent from a priest who hid his former vocation, a merchant family from the Volga who moved to Baku after the Revolution to become proles down there as a way of “laundering” their former status before returning to another Russian region where they and their descendent had brilliant careers ( including in the Party itself lol), etc.

    There was certainly disruption and many talented people were needlessly killed, but the survivors found ways to eventually succeed.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @The Big Red Scary, @Another German Reader, @Not Raul

    Among elite Russians I know, one sees things like descent from a priest who hid his former vocation, a merchant family from the Volga who moved to Baku after the Revolution to become proles down there as a way of “laundering” their former status before returning to another Russian region where they and their descendent had brilliant careers ( including in the Party itself lol), etc.

    This is very interesting. So, are members of the postwar elite in the Soviet Union more likely (relative to their share of the population) to be Russians from non-Russian areas (some of whom underwent status laundering) than Russians from Russian areas (where status laundering was possibly less common)?

    • Replies: @AP
    @Not Raul

    Don’t know. But one wouldn’t necessarily have to change republics, just change cities. Move from a village where one was a kulaks’s or priest’ s child to a city far away, and become a former peasant, current factory worker. Then as such get into a medical institute, or join the Party, etc. The same genetic gifts associated with former status will be helpful in terms of regaining status in the new world. These games are of course inefficient and wasteful on a societal level of course.

  86. @AltanBakshi
    @Morton's toes

    Good Salo!

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

    • Disagree: AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Blinky Bill

    https://lastday.club/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/Menyu-vyzhivalshhika-Borts-vyalenoe-myaso-po-mongolski-Last-Day-Club.jpg

    https://www.ugluu.mn/wp-content/uploads/2015/04/115d6d11663874571f93706486046324-1.jpg

    Борц is better...

    Though Buryats do eat smoked Baikal Omul.

  87. Spoiler: Talk of white genocide misses the point

    the thing is SJW politics wants

    1. unlimited mass immigration

    2. full communal integration

    and those two things combined lead eventually to every white child going to a white minority school

    now that may not seem like a big deal to people who didn’t go a school like that because the media and academia cover it up but mine was like 5% white and involved extreme amounts of anti-white gang violence (ignored or in some cases incited by SJW teachers) including constant (violent) pressure on white girls for sex so…

    whether intentional or not SJW politics is genocidal.

  88. @Morton's toes
    @Svevlad

    What is the substitute for chocolate chip cookies?

    I can do without the rest but I have wracked my brain for close to two years and have been unable to crack this nut. : (

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Daniel Chieh, @Svevlad, @notanon

    use them for workouts, long hikes etc

  89. mal says:
    @Mr. Hack
    @Thorfinnsson

    How much new money was created because of the covid pandemic in the US? 2-3 trillion?

    How much more does Biden want to print to fund his ambitious infrastructure plans? 3 trillion.

    This kind of spending and creation of money is unprecedented in my lifetime How can you be so sure that this sort of spending wont eventually translate into hyper inflation? Isn't it interesting that most people claim that paying a mortgage or rent accounts for the largest part of their monthly budget, yet the incredible rise in home prices is not included within the calculation of the CPI?

    Replies: @mal

    Sub 1.5% 10 year Treasury is telling us people fear deflationary recession (once stimulus support expires and supply chains recover) far more than they fear hyperinflation.

    From what I have seen, the biggest component of high CPI print has to do with cars (rental companies went bankrupt during pandemic and are now scrambling to rebuild their fleets), and this is very temporary.

    Something similar happened in 2009 with Cash for Clunkers – government paid you to buy a new car. Sales jumped for a time and then declined. I expect car demand to decline shortly, which will drop CPI back below 2%.

    As far as housing goes, rising prices make homeowners feel good, and investors such as Blackrock, and also mortgage backed securities traders rich. It does hurt poor people but they don’t count on the account of being poor.

  90. utu says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    @utu

    I wish better for Russians than other peoples, but my consistent principle has always been that idiocy must always be brutally punished. They deserved the consequences of 1917, they deserved the consequences of 1991, and (albeit on a drastically smaller overall scale) some of those who made incorrect choices in the past few months will have to live, or in many cases die, with the consequences of those choices. At this point, I consider my personal convenience (e.g. uninterrupted access to gym, food court, park benches) vastly more important than their lives or welfare, which they evidently don't value much themselves. That is, in short, I have come to the rightoid way of "thinking" on this matter - now that, unlike in 2020, most people outside the Third World now have a choice on whether they want to get Corona or not.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @utu

    my consistent principle has always been that idiocy must always be brutally punished

    At this point, I consider my personal convenience (e.g. uninterrupted access to gym, food court, park benches) vastly more important than their lives or welfare

    I have come to the rightoid way of “thinking”

    Get a hold of yourself. They, the people you are talking about are people not figures in a video game. Snap out of it. Try to be a mensch not a punk who makes incontinent pronouncements when frustrated.

    And most importantly we should not forget that your premise that dying is optional in Russia is false. The supply of vaccine is on the level of vaccination with small positive margin that is left there to create a false impression of oversupply and the meme, on which you seem to work very hard, that Russians do not want to get vaccinated. Let’s’ look at stats in July and September and you will see that Russians will be getting vaccinated unless Kremlin decides to sell all vaccines abroad.

  91. @Blinky Bill
    @AltanBakshi

    https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/SpcAAOSwuxFY2U~o/s-l300.jpg

    https://www.blivenlawfirm.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/03/bigstock-Dried-Salted-Fish-Vobla-Lies-O-305566933.jpg

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    Борц is better…

    Though Buryats do eat smoked Baikal Omul.

  92. Taking the Knee

    Re: Below Tweet & Article

    Russia hating scumbag Slava Malamud doesn’t take into consideration that:

    – UEFA doesn’t require teams to take a knee before a match
    – not every team or every player on a given team chooses to take a knee.

    Malamud grossly distorts the reasoning behind not taking a knee. If I’m no offhand mistaken, this act was initially in response to a racist act in the US – not Russia. He cherry picks some Russian bigots giving their explanation for not taking a knee, while ignoring a prevailing view in support of not taking a knee. Are people automatically not racist by taking a knee? Conversely, is everyone choosing to not conform with a perceived PC trend a bigot for refusing to take a knee?

    Malamud’s ethically flawed Twitter rants are noteworthy. Of Moldovan Jewish background, he says nothing against Kiev regime controlled Ukraine designing a jersey with a slogan that was popularized by Ukrainian fascists during WW II. These particular Ukrainians committed violent acts against Poles and Jews. Following WW II, the same pro-Stepan Bandera Ukrainians have been at the forefront in expressing bigoted anti-Russian views.

    https://www.rt.com/sport/526450-england-fans-ignore-fa-boo-take-knee/

  93. Things in Moscow close due to covid? Why?

    Alcohol poisoning kills 3 million globally every year (more than corona, imagine that) and not once have I heard booze stop flowing in Russia, even during the glorified Yeltsin years when Russian males actually lost a decade of life.

    I guess Sputnik V was a hoax.

    In other news I liberated a DJI consumer drone… A hackRF picked up all frequencies. 4 frequencies in the 2ghz and 1 in the 5ghz. My objective is a proof-of-concept to hijack the video stream with gay porn. If it works I can deploy it as my house anti-drone system. Its limited range will prevent interference with unintended devices… I hope.

    What a facinating modern age we live in.

    If one pedo is ever found with a handful of these drones near a school I imagine licensing will be enforced to even the under-250gram drones.

  94. mal says:

    Space junk problem is a very important topic that will be growing more and more prominent as time goes on. But fear not! Russians are on the case. Two important papers on the subject have been published by Moscow State Technical University.

    First deals with the orbital mechanics of the intercept for a piece of junk launched from Cape Canaveral, USA, and a garbage collector launched from Vostochny, Russia.

    https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/analiz-dinamiki-pereleta-kosmicheskogo-musorosborschika-iz-ploskosti-svoey-orbity-v-ploskost-orbity-fragmenta-musora/viewer

    Mission parameters:
    Time to intercept – 24 hours.
    Orbit: 400 km – 2000 km range.
    Garbage collector specifications – 20 kN thrust, 1,500 s ISP. (Definitely interesting one – thrust is like nuclear thermal, but ISP is much higher. Russian RD-0410 was like 35 kN thrust, 950 s ISP). Nuclear thermal will top out at 1,000 s most likely. This looks like VASIMR or MHD type engine, electric plasma accelerator, but with ability to dump large mass of propellant.

    But what to do if space junk refuses to be collected and attempts to perform evasive maneuvers? Or what it its too big (I’m thinking Starship sized here)? Fear not! Russian garbage collectors come with powerful lasers just for your convenience.

    Second paper addresses the problem by providing targeting solutions to laser cutting through large rotating and evading object.

    https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/analiz-dinamiki-lazernoy-2d-rezki-krupnogabaritnogo-obekta-kosmicheskogo-musora-v-nevesomosti/viewer

    Whether space junk resists it or not, important and valuable parts can be extracted from it by the humble garbage collector. Please remember to recycle and Russians will help you to keep space neat and tidy!

    • Thanks: Rattus Norwegius
  95. @Svevlad
    @Morton's toes

    as someone who has a bit of a sweet tooth myself - i got a compromise solution:

    since carbs and basic sugar is quickly processed, and results in a sudden burst of activity - i only eat it when i go on my daily walks, or before exercising. This nips the insulin spike induced slowness right in the bud (something very important to me as a type 1 diabetic - since basically every goddamn meal results in an insulin spike due to the nature of how insulin injections work).

    tldr use chocochip cookies to power your workouts

    Replies: @Morton's toes

    OK.

    You and the other fellow and I may be in agreement here. Chocolate chip cookies are only one step in power below vagina. Only Marcus Aurelius could resist and even he not absolutely.

    • LOL: Daniel Chieh
  96. @Anatoly Karlin
    @silviosilver

    Robin DiAngelo made bank. Promoting CRT seems to have worked out pretty well for her.

    High status Whites who promote CRT benefit, at least so long as they don't drink the Kool-Aid and do things like move into Black neighborhoods in solidarity. (This is where "Does it have good schools?" comes in). But that is just another one of life's myriad IQ tests, high status Whites did not generally become high status by failing them.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Brás Cubas, @Mitleser

    High status Whites who promote CRT benefit

    And high status non-whites benefit even more.
    The prosperity of current white collaborateurs does not make CRT which undermines their ability to defend their status against non-whites anti-white.

    In Bobos In Paradise: The New Upper Class and How They Got there (2000), David Brooks describes the displacement of the WASPs as the dominant ethnic group in the US with the introduction in the early 60s of “merit” as the primary criterion of admission to universities, especially the Ivies. The new criterion was introduced by WASPs themselves, thus paving the way to their own demise and conceding power to a new emergent group that found its own flourishing within “merit”: the high-performing Jew. This led, a generation later, according to Brooks, to the rise of the Bobos (the bourgeois bohemians) as the new cultural and economic elite. They were bourgeois because they had acquired great riches given the demand for educated labor in the new global economy they had helped create—but they were also bohemian because they imbibed the modernist progressivist values of their Ivy League professors. In other words, like their predecessors, they laid the groundwork for their own destruction by embracing the ideology that evolved into the identity politics of the 90s.

    The academic Bobos are now being displaced. Like the WASPs before them, they have written the script of their own demise—in their case, through a dedicated investment in the rise of the minority academic. The progressive ideology they subscribed to left them with no tools to resist their impending fall.

    https://quillette.com/2021/04/09/georgetowns-cultural-revolution/

    • Replies: @Mitleser
    @Mitleser

    *not anti-white.

  97. @Not Raul

    On another note, @devarbol does point out that McMeekin performs a useful service in highlighting that American elite anti-Communism only began after WW2.
     
    Is that actually true? I don’t believe so.

    The first Red Scare took off in 1919.

    https://timesmachine.nytimes.com/timesmachine/1919/02/05/97069134.pdf

    During WW 2, the USA supported the USSR; but that was a temporary marriage of convenience.

    Replies: @Mitleser

    This Red Scare did not seem to have lasted long, though.

    • Replies: @Not Raul
    @Mitleser

    The one American engineer who worked in the USSR whom I can think of off of the top of my head is the father of the Koch brothers, who helped develop the USSR’s petrochemical industry under Stalin. He later claimed to be anti-Communist; but that didn’t stop him from cashing their checks.

    This doesn’t take anything away from the Red Scare, which focused mainly on domestic left wing groups. The fact that the father of the Koch brothers made so much money in the USSR is cold comfort to the IWW, and other left wing groups who were harassed, and persecuted by law enforcement agencies. It certainly didn’t help Eugene Debs.

  98. @Mitleser
    @Anatoly Karlin


    High status Whites who promote CRT benefit
     
    And high status non-whites benefit even more.
    The prosperity of current white collaborateurs does not make CRT which undermines their ability to defend their status against non-whites anti-white.

    In Bobos In Paradise: The New Upper Class and How They Got there (2000), David Brooks describes the displacement of the WASPs as the dominant ethnic group in the US with the introduction in the early 60s of “merit” as the primary criterion of admission to universities, especially the Ivies. The new criterion was introduced by WASPs themselves, thus paving the way to their own demise and conceding power to a new emergent group that found its own flourishing within “merit”: the high-performing Jew. This led, a generation later, according to Brooks, to the rise of the Bobos (the bourgeois bohemians) as the new cultural and economic elite. They were bourgeois because they had acquired great riches given the demand for educated labor in the new global economy they had helped create—but they were also bohemian because they imbibed the modernist progressivist values of their Ivy League professors. In other words, like their predecessors, they laid the groundwork for their own destruction by embracing the ideology that evolved into the identity politics of the 90s.

    The academic Bobos are now being displaced. Like the WASPs before them, they have written the script of their own demise—in their case, through a dedicated investment in the rise of the minority academic. The progressive ideology they subscribed to left them with no tools to resist their impending fall.
     
    https://quillette.com/2021/04/09/georgetowns-cultural-revolution/

    Replies: @Mitleser

    *not anti-white.

  99. @AltanBakshi
    @Anatoly Karlin


    I wish better for Russians than other peoples, but my consistent principle has always been that idiocy must always be brutally punished. They deserved the consequences of 1917, they deserved the consequences of 1991
     
    Few younger people seem to know that there were many people who really believed in Communism and Socialism as scientifical truths, which were inevitable on the road of progress, later during the Brezhnev era most commies lost their faith and became cynics, but before him and his gerontocracy, vast majority of them tuly believed that they were possessors and guardians of scientific truths. From such perspective Lenin's and Stalin's policies were purely rational and repression was just punishing of people who were against progress, in other words such people who dared to threaten inevitable scientific progress, were backward idiots and punishing of them in the name of the progress was just for the benefit of the Soviet Russian nation.

    Sadly I now notice that this same spirit, which animated inhuman Bolshevik policies, is still alive in some Russians. Only fools think that bolshies did their crimes because of some metaphysical evilness or twisted pseudo-religiosity, no, not at all, commies just saw that they are more rational than others, that they were just doing what was historical and rational inevitability and necessity.

    Merry sunday everybody!

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin, @Bashibuzuk

    • Agree: AltanBakshi
    • LOL: Dmitry
  100. Incidentally, I have started reading Stalin’s War. Not far in, but my initial impressions are that McMeekin is weak on military realism – he seems to think that Allied Lend-Lease that went to the USSR would have instead translated into the Anglo-Americans freeing the Polish death camps had those resources been devoted to their own war effort instead.

    McMeekin possibly does overemphasize the importance of Lend-Lease to the Soviet war effort. But otherwise, his book is absolutely outstanding, with his exhaustive archival research fully confirming the basic reality of the Suvorov Hypothesis more than three decades after it appeared, and numerous other crucial WWII issues. Here are a few of my comments drawn from the extremely long thread that reviewed his book last month:

    He obviously had to tread very carefully, but it’s very nice to see that after more than thirty years, he’s now managed to bring the Suvorov Hypothesis in from the cold, while providing a great quantity of additional documentary material that fully confirms its essential correctness. McMeekin’s book received glowing praise from numerous leading mainstream historians, so by implication Suvorov is now being incorporated into our accepted history.

    I was very pleased that Laurent said he’d discovered the issue from my own 2018 article, and it looks like my own judgment has now been entirely validated. Here’s the link for those who want to read it:

    https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-when-stalin-almost-conquered-europe/

    I was also very pleased to see that McMeekin gives a great deal of attention to the planned 1940 Allied attack against Soviet Russia, which was only halted by Hitler’s conquest of France. As far as I can tell, he’s provided the only account of that decisive turning point published in any Western history book in the last 70-odd years. Indeed, he plausibly argues that Stalin’s closely-related effort to seek peace with Finland was probably the most important decision he made during the entire war:

    https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-how-hitler-saved-the-allies/

    I think this also tends to greatly increase the likelihood that the rest of my long analysis of World War II is also probably correct:

    https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-understanding-world-war-ii/

    I’m now nearly done with the McMeekin book, and it seems absolutely outstanding. It’s also amazing how many “fringe conspiracy theories” turn out to be completely true.

    For example, a year or two ago I read the short memoirs of FDR’s former son-in-law, which was published by a rightwing fringe-group (in his later years, that son-in-law had become chairman of a different rightwing fringe group).

    He claimed that towards the end of the war, the US government had become dissatisfied with President Chiang Kai-shek of China, and therefore decided to have him assassinated, though it ultimately never happened.

    Given the extreme fringe-source, I’ve never really been sure whether the story was nonsense, though I’ve occasionally mentioned it in comments, emphasizing that it was just a claim by FDR’s son-in-law.

    Meekin demonstrates that it was absolutely true, citing the personal memoirs of a high-ranking and highly-credible American official.

    I think this also greatly enhances the credibility of David Irving’s (far more solidly attested) claims that Churchill had assassinated the head of the Polish government in exile, and had tried but failed to assassinate Charles de Gaulle.

    Well, I just finished McMeekin’s book, which runs over 800 pages, but goes quickly.

    Absolutely excellent, one of the best histories I’ve read in several years. He’s obviously under certain constraints, but it’s remarkable how much “true history” he managed to get into a mainstream work.

    Not only does he give proper attention to Operation Pike, perhaps the first history in 75 years that does, but numerous other important items stand out, not only including the American plans to assassinate China’s President Chiang, one of the supposed “Big Four” of the Allies. And most importantly, the Suvorov Hypothesis has now finally been smuggled into fully mainstream historiography after thirty years.

    But what’s most astonishing is the absolutely glowing blurbs he received from prominent, absolutely mainstream historians, as seen on his jacket or the Amazon page:

    “Sean McMeekin’s approach in Stalin’s War is both original and refreshing, written as it is with a wonderful clarity.”―Antony Beevor, author of Stalingrad

    “Gripping, authoritative, accessible, and always bracingly revisionist.”―Simon Sebag Montefiore, author of Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar

    “Stalin’s War is above all about strategy: the failure of Roosevelt and Churchill to make shrewd choices as World War II played out. McMeekin brilliantly argues that instead of weighting the European and Pacific theaters to favor their own interests—and to weaken the inevitably antagonistic Soviet Union—FDR and Churchill left the most critical parts of Asia unguarded while they ground down the German army, a decision that favored Stalin’s interests far more than their own. Roosevelt’s ‘Germany first’ strategy and the trillion dollars of Lend Lease aid he poured into Stalin’s treasury would underwrite Soviet control of China and East Central Europe after 1945 and hatch a Cold War whose dire effects are with us still.”―Geoffrey Wawro, author of Sons of Freedom and director of the University of North Texas Military History Center

    And very favorable reviews in The Financial Times and The Guardian.

    McMeekin doesn’t say he’s absolutely sure that Stalin was about to launch a massive attack in the West, but he does seem to think it seemed pretty likely. In fact, Stalin became worried as he began to realize that his attack plans might be falling behind those of Hitler. Obviously, launching an attack to seize the Romanian oil fields that were absolutely vital to Germany meant an all-out war, and Suvorov had also emphasized that was going to be Stalin’s main thrust.

    One major difference is that McMeekin doesn’t seem to think that Hitler was aware of Stalin’s looming attack, so it probably wasn’t responsible for Barbarossa. He thought Stalin would probably attack sooner or later, but didn’t realize that the enormous attack forces had already been concentrated on the border.

    Since McMeekin covers the entire war period, the Suvorov Hypothesis is only one element of his account, basically a couple of chapters or so, but I’d say his verdict is pretty similar to what I said in my 2018 article, though vastly more thoroughly researched and documented:

    Those questions of verification and credibility were naturally the first things that came to my mind when I read Suvorov’s book a decade or so ago. However, the case seemed quite strong.

    (1) Suvorov’s seminal work had been almost totally blacklisted in the Anglosphere for two decades, never republished and never discussed, even while he sold millions of copies in Russian, German, and many other languages. Obviously, there was a concerted effort to suppress him.

    (2) In 2008 he was finally published in English by the prestigious Naval Academy Press of Annapolis. The international debate about his theory and his evidence had been fiercely raging for twenty years, and I thought unlikely that a highly-regarded military academic press would have broken the boycott and released his work if his evidence were ridiculous or fabricated.

    (3) I don’t read Russian or German, but everyone pointed to the Glantz book as being the most powerful English-language refutation to Suvorov, so I read it and was extremely disappointed. Glantz merely devoted a couple of pages of his introduction to denouncing Suvorov in very general terms, and never once disputed any of Suvorov’s hundreds of very specific factual claims. Since Glantz had the benefit years of heated international debate, that seemed to confirm that all of Suvorov’s facts were correct, or at least could not easily be challenged.

    (4) The current McMeekin book seems to completely settle the issue. McMeekin is a very solid and reputable scholar, and his book was widely praised by leading mainstream historians. McMeekin did a great deal of archival research, and seems to have almost totally confirmed Suvorov’s factual claims, even including those that had raised the greatest doubts with me.

    For example, Suvorov claimed that the USSR had a *million* trained paratroopers, obviously a purely offensive force, and a total something like 100x larger than the rest of the world combined. When I published my original 2018 article, some people said that figure was total lunacy, and proved Suvorov was lying. His footnote referred to some particular filing box in the Kremlin archives, and since I don’t read Russian nor plan to visit Moscow, I couldn’t confirm his claim. But McMeekin said the same thing, and cited a big article in Pravda making that same claim, thereby confirming Suvorov.

    Since Suvorov is still totally “radioactive” in the Anglosphere, McMeekin had to be extremely cautious, and only mentioned his name in a single sentence. But his book absolutely confirms the essential correctness of the Suvorov Hypothesis more than three decades after it appeared.

    https://www.unz.com/article/barbarossa-suvorovs-revisionism-goes-mainstream/?showcomments#comment-4672101

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    @Ron Unz

    I'm not one of the people who denies the importance of Lend-Lease, to the contrary it included some vital components (high octane aviation fuel, copper cables, etc.) that the USSR did not produce in bulk itself and I think there's an excellent chance the Eastern Front would have gotten stalemated without it. I was getting at McMeekin's point that the supplies destined for the USSR could have significantly contributed to faster Western Allied advances (I think McMeekin argues this, at least that's the impression I got having done some quick skimming of the book) with the corollary being that it was a "free" giveaway to the USSR. This is wrong, because the Western Allies were superbly supplied with materiel as it is. It was not a significant constraint for them. What was a constraint was limited manpower, much lower combat effectiveness than the Germans (adjusted for logistics/battlefield conditions, US Marine divisions were about as effective as Wehrmacht reserve divisions), and the fact that Germany was making massive capital investments into its industrial base that - in the absence of the Eastern Front (by either not attacking the USSR, or defeating it in 1942/43) and Allied strategic bombing - would have by 1944-45 brought up German war production to near-American scales and assured it total conventional military hegemony over all of continental Europe.

    Anyhow, I'd rather first finish reading the book before engaging in much more detailed discussion of it. This was mostly just a throwaway "first impression" of it, hence why its a brief note on the Open Thread, not a separate post.

    Replies: @iffen

    , @Bashibuzuk
    @Ron Unz

    I remember reading Suvorov's books in the early 2000s and my impression was that it absolutely made sense. Soviet Union was a proto-Globalist project that was supposed to expand its ideology and system as far as possible. At the times, a war was the only way for it to happen.



    It is only after the war, after US dropped the A bombes on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the USSR lost 25 million dead and got its most productive regions devastated, that the Communist project had to become less brazen in its prospects.

    Then Soviet elites started talking about detente, coexistence and convergence. By the end of the 1970ies they decided to drop the Communist ideology and integrate in the Globalized West that had moved forward with the capitalist Globalisation. But either Communist, or Capitalist or some mix of both (the Chinese model) Globalism was the outcome we were moving towards ever since the defeat of the Nazi Reich.

    Soviet Russians were used as cannon fodder by the worldwide early Globalist elites in the 1930ies. Today it's the Americans' turn to play this role. Probably tomorrow it'll be the Chinese...

    , @AltanBakshi
    @Ron Unz

    To me it would be most odd if someone as cautious as Stalin would have contemplated attack against the West after the fiasco of Winter War and Purges of Red Army's officer corps. Stalin was not a gambler like Hitler. Even his rise to power was through careful attention to details and planning, he was too wary and risk averse to really contemplate such shenanigans as grand surpise attack to the west. Or why else he did so many purges? Because he was not as sure about his position as Hitler, and had not as much trust in his state's institutions.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @notanon

    , @Thorfinnsson
    @Ron Unz

    I see your obsession with one of the many Phony War / Sitzkrieg fanciful allied plans continues, and that you seem to think this is some kind of gnostic knowledge. Other allied schemes from this period involved landing troops in Northern Scandinavia, on the pretext of assisting the Finns, to stop Swedish exports of iron ore to Germany.

    In reality this plan is routinely discussed in WW2 histories. I just read two WW2 books, and both bring up the plan. The first is Richard Overy's The Bombing War, and the second is Niklas Zetterling's Blitzkrieg: From the Ground Up.

    Here's the text from Overy's book:


    Some sense of how difficult raiding was to be against targets quite remote from the aerial battlefield in western Europe had already become evident when in 1940, and again in 1941, the RAF undertook preparations to bomb the Soviet oilfields in the Caucasus region in order to deny Germany and Italy vital supplies of fuel. The plans in 1940 were prompted first by the French High Command, which wanted to strike at Soviet oil not only to undermine the trade with the Axis states but also to create a possible political crisis for the Soviet Union among the Moslem peoples of southern Russia. French military leaders were much happier about bombing the Soviet Union than bombing Germany.170 The British side agreed with the plan and drew up a detailed study in April 1940 for deploying 48 Blenheim light bombers from bases in Syria and Iraq, supported by 65 Glenn Martin bombers bought by the French from American production. RAF planners thought little of Soviet air and anti-aircraft defences, and like the French, hoped that a three-month attack on Batum, Baku and Grozny might lead sooner or later ‘to the complete collapse of the war potential of the USSR’, as well as disastrous repercussions for Germany.171 Chamberlain’s Cabinet thought the campaign too risky, and following the German attack on France on 10 May, the French abandoned the idea. But the RAF remained in a state of readiness to eliminate the entire Soviet oil industry in three months, assuming an average margin of error of 75 yards, a conclusion entirely at odds with all the bombing trials conducted in 1939 and 1940.172 The plan was revived again in June 1941 in the knowledge that Germany was about to attack the Soviet Union. There were strong recommendations from the British Embassy in Cairo and the chiefs of staff to use two squadrons of Wellington bombers and two of Blenheims for a month of intensive attacks, not only to deny the oil to the Germans but ‘to remind the Soviet of consequences of acceding to German demands’.173 Planning was completed by August 1941, but once again operational and strategic reality prevented a campaign in which the means were manifestly inadequate for the military and political ends desired.
     
    And here's the text from Zetterling's book:


    The Germans were far from alone in underestimating the Soviet military capacity. When Germany and the Soviet Union had signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact in August 1939, they had also agreed on a trade treaty. Accordingly, oil was exported from the Soviet Union to Germany. This led the British and French to consider attacking the Soviet oil fields at Baku. Such considerations suggest that decision-makers in Britain and France did not realize the magnitude of the Soviet military capacity.128
     
    Zetterling's footnote, incidentally, references a German book published in 1975.

    The plan is not some hidden from us and is in fact ordinary knowledge among WW2 historians and buffs.

    Replies: @iffen, @Ron Unz

  101. Bashibuzuk says:

    From the excellent Толкователь Telegram Blog of Pavel Pryannikov:

    On TV, I now saw archival footage of the late 1990s with the last press secretary of Yeltsin, deputy. Head of the Presidential Administration Dmitry Yakushkin.

    It became interesting what happened to him now. And I read his biography. This is a straightforward classic alloy of liberal-KGBism, about which I often write.
    His ancestor was a Decembrist. Grandfather Ivan Yakushkin is an academician, twice winner of the Stalin Prize. They briefly write about his affairs: “Academician Yakushkin was a paid informant of the NKVD of the USSR, in particular, the author of denunciations against Academician NI Vavilov.”

    Yakushkin’s father, Dmitry Ivanovich, is a major general of the KGB. Formally headed the TASS bureau in Washington since the late 1960s. His son, also Dmitry, from the early 1970s lived with his father in the United States. He showed his talent early – already in the 8th grade his notes were published in Komsomolskaya Pravda. He graduated from MGIMO, in 1984 he went to France, also as a correspondent. Member of the CPSU. He was the head of the travel magazine Geo.

    In the late 1990s, he was summoned to save Yeltsin’s rating. The press secretary Yakushkin himself said that in 1998 Yeltsin’s real rating was 1.5% (and with such a rating he quietly “won” the 1996 presidential election, and then this ruin and the alcoholic also ruled calmly with 1.5% – this, by the way, is about the fact that now many politicized people “pray for ratings”; as we can see, they do not matter in Russia).

    He took part in a special operation to transfer power from Yeltsin to Putin, whose adviser after the “election” was for another year.

    His wife is the daughter of the also Soviet systemic liberal security officer Genrikh Borovik. She also spent her childhood in the United States. There she met her future husband: “He was an absolutely American boy, with perfect, without the slightest accent, English.”

    Now Dmitry Yakushkin is a professor at the Higher School of Economics. Last year, at a lecture at the Yeltsin Center, he “urged Russians to repent for Lenin’s policies, the repression of 1937 and what happened after the war.” And this is said by the grandson of a paid informant of the NKVD and the son of a major general of the KGB.

    That’s about Karlin’s thesis that former elites often end up becoming future elites by adapting and surviving through the Times of Troubles. Patrushev recently said that RusFed needs to build up a “Neo-Aristostocracy”…

    BTW the Russia Day (an official holiday in RusFed) was put on June the 12th because it was the date of Yeltsin’s election as the president of RSFSR in 1990.

    [MORE]

  102. @Yellowface Anon
    I just saw our host's tweet on shorting Aeroflot. Clearly the airline industry will not recover in 100 years (which means practically forever), since what allowed the exponential boom in international air travel (mainly market economics lowering fares and generating demand for tourism/business trips) is being superseded by everyone's perceived need to remain in place (which means controlling people's movement for the elites, and settling somewhere to weather out the chaos/resisting vaccine passports for helots and plebeians).

    There's never a need to mourn what had always been a privilege and an abnormal transplant of your physical self into places you don't belong, as a tourist/person on business. We are simply reverting to the historical norm of chasing after the best land, and sticking more or less firmly on the soil upon finding the right spot.

    (I had not left HK since 2017 despite all the civil unrest in 2019)

    Replies: @Dissident

    an abnormal transplant of your physical self into places you don’t belong

    1.) Couldn’t the same be said about the automobile? Or even any technological advance in travel, going back at least as far as the wheel? By your apparent logic, couldn’t you argue that traveling farther than is possible by riding an animal is “abnormal”?

    2.) If one were to remove the qualifier “physical” from your statement, couldn’t it be applied to any form of telecommunication? Including the one that all of us reading and participating in this thread are using: the Internet.

    Related motif pic:

    • LOL: Yellowface Anon
    • Replies: @Yellowface Anon
    @Dissident

    I was just coping with the apparent changes in what is available and what isn't (and I have a lot of sympathies with the agrarian folks)

    Replies: @Dissident

  103. @Ron Unz

    Incidentally, I have started reading Stalin’s War. Not far in, but my initial impressions are that McMeekin is weak on military realism – he seems to think that Allied Lend-Lease that went to the USSR would have instead translated into the Anglo-Americans freeing the Polish death camps had those resources been devoted to their own war effort instead.
     
    McMeekin possibly does overemphasize the importance of Lend-Lease to the Soviet war effort. But otherwise, his book is absolutely outstanding, with his exhaustive archival research fully confirming the basic reality of the Suvorov Hypothesis more than three decades after it appeared, and numerous other crucial WWII issues. Here are a few of my comments drawn from the extremely long thread that reviewed his book last month:

    He obviously had to tread very carefully, but it’s very nice to see that after more than thirty years, he’s now managed to bring the Suvorov Hypothesis in from the cold, while providing a great quantity of additional documentary material that fully confirms its essential correctness. McMeekin’s book received glowing praise from numerous leading mainstream historians, so by implication Suvorov is now being incorporated into our accepted history.

    I was very pleased that Laurent said he’d discovered the issue from my own 2018 article, and it looks like my own judgment has now been entirely validated. Here’s the link for those who want to read it:

    https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-when-stalin-almost-conquered-europe/

    I was also very pleased to see that McMeekin gives a great deal of attention to the planned 1940 Allied attack against Soviet Russia, which was only halted by Hitler’s conquest of France. As far as I can tell, he’s provided the only account of that decisive turning point published in any Western history book in the last 70-odd years. Indeed, he plausibly argues that Stalin’s closely-related effort to seek peace with Finland was probably the most important decision he made during the entire war:

    https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-how-hitler-saved-the-allies/

    I think this also tends to greatly increase the likelihood that the rest of my long analysis of World War II is also probably correct:

    https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-understanding-world-war-ii/
     

    I’m now nearly done with the McMeekin book, and it seems absolutely outstanding. It’s also amazing how many “fringe conspiracy theories” turn out to be completely true.

    For example, a year or two ago I read the short memoirs of FDR’s former son-in-law, which was published by a rightwing fringe-group (in his later years, that son-in-law had become chairman of a different rightwing fringe group).

    He claimed that towards the end of the war, the US government had become dissatisfied with President Chiang Kai-shek of China, and therefore decided to have him assassinated, though it ultimately never happened.

    Given the extreme fringe-source, I’ve never really been sure whether the story was nonsense, though I’ve occasionally mentioned it in comments, emphasizing that it was just a claim by FDR’s son-in-law.

    Meekin demonstrates that it was absolutely true, citing the personal memoirs of a high-ranking and highly-credible American official.

    I think this also greatly enhances the credibility of David Irving’s (far more solidly attested) claims that Churchill had assassinated the head of the Polish government in exile, and had tried but failed to assassinate Charles de Gaulle.
     

    Well, I just finished McMeekin’s book, which runs over 800 pages, but goes quickly.

    Absolutely excellent, one of the best histories I’ve read in several years. He’s obviously under certain constraints, but it’s remarkable how much “true history” he managed to get into a mainstream work.

    Not only does he give proper attention to Operation Pike, perhaps the first history in 75 years that does, but numerous other important items stand out, not only including the American plans to assassinate China’s President Chiang, one of the supposed “Big Four” of the Allies. And most importantly, the Suvorov Hypothesis has now finally been smuggled into fully mainstream historiography after thirty years.

    But what’s most astonishing is the absolutely glowing blurbs he received from prominent, absolutely mainstream historians, as seen on his jacket or the Amazon page:

    “Sean McMeekin’s approach in Stalin’s War is both original and refreshing, written as it is with a wonderful clarity.”―Antony Beevor, author of Stalingrad

    “Gripping, authoritative, accessible, and always bracingly revisionist.”―Simon Sebag Montefiore, author of Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar

    “Stalin’s War is above all about strategy: the failure of Roosevelt and Churchill to make shrewd choices as World War II played out. McMeekin brilliantly argues that instead of weighting the European and Pacific theaters to favor their own interests—and to weaken the inevitably antagonistic Soviet Union—FDR and Churchill left the most critical parts of Asia unguarded while they ground down the German army, a decision that favored Stalin’s interests far more than their own. Roosevelt’s ‘Germany first’ strategy and the trillion dollars of Lend Lease aid he poured into Stalin’s treasury would underwrite Soviet control of China and East Central Europe after 1945 and hatch a Cold War whose dire effects are with us still.”―Geoffrey Wawro, author of Sons of Freedom and director of the University of North Texas Military History Center

    And very favorable reviews in The Financial Times and The Guardian.
     

    McMeekin doesn’t say he’s absolutely sure that Stalin was about to launch a massive attack in the West, but he does seem to think it seemed pretty likely. In fact, Stalin became worried as he began to realize that his attack plans might be falling behind those of Hitler. Obviously, launching an attack to seize the Romanian oil fields that were absolutely vital to Germany meant an all-out war, and Suvorov had also emphasized that was going to be Stalin’s main thrust.

    One major difference is that McMeekin doesn’t seem to think that Hitler was aware of Stalin’s looming attack, so it probably wasn’t responsible for Barbarossa. He thought Stalin would probably attack sooner or later, but didn’t realize that the enormous attack forces had already been concentrated on the border.

    Since McMeekin covers the entire war period, the Suvorov Hypothesis is only one element of his account, basically a couple of chapters or so, but I’d say his verdict is pretty similar to what I said in my 2018 article, though vastly more thoroughly researched and documented:
     

    Those questions of verification and credibility were naturally the first things that came to my mind when I read Suvorov’s book a decade or so ago. However, the case seemed quite strong.

    (1) Suvorov’s seminal work had been almost totally blacklisted in the Anglosphere for two decades, never republished and never discussed, even while he sold millions of copies in Russian, German, and many other languages. Obviously, there was a concerted effort to suppress him.

    (2) In 2008 he was finally published in English by the prestigious Naval Academy Press of Annapolis. The international debate about his theory and his evidence had been fiercely raging for twenty years, and I thought unlikely that a highly-regarded military academic press would have broken the boycott and released his work if his evidence were ridiculous or fabricated.

    (3) I don’t read Russian or German, but everyone pointed to the Glantz book as being the most powerful English-language refutation to Suvorov, so I read it and was extremely disappointed. Glantz merely devoted a couple of pages of his introduction to denouncing Suvorov in very general terms, and never once disputed any of Suvorov’s hundreds of very specific factual claims. Since Glantz had the benefit years of heated international debate, that seemed to confirm that all of Suvorov’s facts were correct, or at least could not easily be challenged.

    (4) The current McMeekin book seems to completely settle the issue. McMeekin is a very solid and reputable scholar, and his book was widely praised by leading mainstream historians. McMeekin did a great deal of archival research, and seems to have almost totally confirmed Suvorov’s factual claims, even including those that had raised the greatest doubts with me.

    For example, Suvorov claimed that the USSR had a *million* trained paratroopers, obviously a purely offensive force, and a total something like 100x larger than the rest of the world combined. When I published my original 2018 article, some people said that figure was total lunacy, and proved Suvorov was lying. His footnote referred to some particular filing box in the Kremlin archives, and since I don’t read Russian nor plan to visit Moscow, I couldn’t confirm his claim. But McMeekin said the same thing, and cited a big article in Pravda making that same claim, thereby confirming Suvorov.

    Since Suvorov is still totally “radioactive” in the Anglosphere, McMeekin had to be extremely cautious, and only mentioned his name in a single sentence. But his book absolutely confirms the essential correctness of the Suvorov Hypothesis more than three decades after it appeared.
     
    https://www.unz.com/article/barbarossa-suvorovs-revisionism-goes-mainstream/?showcomments#comment-4672101

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin, @Bashibuzuk, @AltanBakshi, @Thorfinnsson

    I’m not one of the people who denies the importance of Lend-Lease, to the contrary it included some vital components (high octane aviation fuel, copper cables, etc.) that the USSR did not produce in bulk itself and I think there’s an excellent chance the Eastern Front would have gotten stalemated without it. I was getting at McMeekin’s point that the supplies destined for the USSR could have significantly contributed to faster Western Allied advances (I think McMeekin argues this, at least that’s the impression I got having done some quick skimming of the book) with the corollary being that it was a “free” giveaway to the USSR. This is wrong, because the Western Allies were superbly supplied with materiel as it is. It was not a significant constraint for them. What was a constraint was limited manpower, much lower combat effectiveness than the Germans (adjusted for logistics/battlefield conditions, US Marine divisions were about as effective as Wehrmacht reserve divisions), and the fact that Germany was making massive capital investments into its industrial base that – in the absence of the Eastern Front (by either not attacking the USSR, or defeating it in 1942/43) and Allied strategic bombing – would have by 1944-45 brought up German war production to near-American scales and assured it total conventional military hegemony over all of continental Europe.

    Anyhow, I’d rather first finish reading the book before engaging in much more detailed discussion of it. This was mostly just a throwaway “first impression” of it, hence why its a brief note on the Open Thread, not a separate post.

    • Replies: @iffen
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Suck-up.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

  104. @Anatoly Karlin
    @Ron Unz

    I'm not one of the people who denies the importance of Lend-Lease, to the contrary it included some vital components (high octane aviation fuel, copper cables, etc.) that the USSR did not produce in bulk itself and I think there's an excellent chance the Eastern Front would have gotten stalemated without it. I was getting at McMeekin's point that the supplies destined for the USSR could have significantly contributed to faster Western Allied advances (I think McMeekin argues this, at least that's the impression I got having done some quick skimming of the book) with the corollary being that it was a "free" giveaway to the USSR. This is wrong, because the Western Allies were superbly supplied with materiel as it is. It was not a significant constraint for them. What was a constraint was limited manpower, much lower combat effectiveness than the Germans (adjusted for logistics/battlefield conditions, US Marine divisions were about as effective as Wehrmacht reserve divisions), and the fact that Germany was making massive capital investments into its industrial base that - in the absence of the Eastern Front (by either not attacking the USSR, or defeating it in 1942/43) and Allied strategic bombing - would have by 1944-45 brought up German war production to near-American scales and assured it total conventional military hegemony over all of continental Europe.

    Anyhow, I'd rather first finish reading the book before engaging in much more detailed discussion of it. This was mostly just a throwaway "first impression" of it, hence why its a brief note on the Open Thread, not a separate post.

    Replies: @iffen

    Suck-up.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    @iffen

    In what sense? I never hid that I disagree with Ron Unz on multiple WW2 questions. It is however obviously true that there's no point in me discussing McMeekin's book in detail when I've only read the first three chapters and skimmed over a few other parts of interest (on the basis of which I wrote this comment to Hanania's post).

    Replies: @iffen

  105. Bashibuzuk says:
    @Ron Unz

    Incidentally, I have started reading Stalin’s War. Not far in, but my initial impressions are that McMeekin is weak on military realism – he seems to think that Allied Lend-Lease that went to the USSR would have instead translated into the Anglo-Americans freeing the Polish death camps had those resources been devoted to their own war effort instead.
     
    McMeekin possibly does overemphasize the importance of Lend-Lease to the Soviet war effort. But otherwise, his book is absolutely outstanding, with his exhaustive archival research fully confirming the basic reality of the Suvorov Hypothesis more than three decades after it appeared, and numerous other crucial WWII issues. Here are a few of my comments drawn from the extremely long thread that reviewed his book last month:

    He obviously had to tread very carefully, but it’s very nice to see that after more than thirty years, he’s now managed to bring the Suvorov Hypothesis in from the cold, while providing a great quantity of additional documentary material that fully confirms its essential correctness. McMeekin’s book received glowing praise from numerous leading mainstream historians, so by implication Suvorov is now being incorporated into our accepted history.

    I was very pleased that Laurent said he’d discovered the issue from my own 2018 article, and it looks like my own judgment has now been entirely validated. Here’s the link for those who want to read it:

    https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-when-stalin-almost-conquered-europe/

    I was also very pleased to see that McMeekin gives a great deal of attention to the planned 1940 Allied attack against Soviet Russia, which was only halted by Hitler’s conquest of France. As far as I can tell, he’s provided the only account of that decisive turning point published in any Western history book in the last 70-odd years. Indeed, he plausibly argues that Stalin’s closely-related effort to seek peace with Finland was probably the most important decision he made during the entire war:

    https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-how-hitler-saved-the-allies/

    I think this also tends to greatly increase the likelihood that the rest of my long analysis of World War II is also probably correct:

    https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-understanding-world-war-ii/
     

    I’m now nearly done with the McMeekin book, and it seems absolutely outstanding. It’s also amazing how many “fringe conspiracy theories” turn out to be completely true.

    For example, a year or two ago I read the short memoirs of FDR’s former son-in-law, which was published by a rightwing fringe-group (in his later years, that son-in-law had become chairman of a different rightwing fringe group).

    He claimed that towards the end of the war, the US government had become dissatisfied with President Chiang Kai-shek of China, and therefore decided to have him assassinated, though it ultimately never happened.

    Given the extreme fringe-source, I’ve never really been sure whether the story was nonsense, though I’ve occasionally mentioned it in comments, emphasizing that it was just a claim by FDR’s son-in-law.

    Meekin demonstrates that it was absolutely true, citing the personal memoirs of a high-ranking and highly-credible American official.

    I think this also greatly enhances the credibility of David Irving’s (far more solidly attested) claims that Churchill had assassinated the head of the Polish government in exile, and had tried but failed to assassinate Charles de Gaulle.
     

    Well, I just finished McMeekin’s book, which runs over 800 pages, but goes quickly.

    Absolutely excellent, one of the best histories I’ve read in several years. He’s obviously under certain constraints, but it’s remarkable how much “true history” he managed to get into a mainstream work.

    Not only does he give proper attention to Operation Pike, perhaps the first history in 75 years that does, but numerous other important items stand out, not only including the American plans to assassinate China’s President Chiang, one of the supposed “Big Four” of the Allies. And most importantly, the Suvorov Hypothesis has now finally been smuggled into fully mainstream historiography after thirty years.

    But what’s most astonishing is the absolutely glowing blurbs he received from prominent, absolutely mainstream historians, as seen on his jacket or the Amazon page:

    “Sean McMeekin’s approach in Stalin’s War is both original and refreshing, written as it is with a wonderful clarity.”―Antony Beevor, author of Stalingrad

    “Gripping, authoritative, accessible, and always bracingly revisionist.”―Simon Sebag Montefiore, author of Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar

    “Stalin’s War is above all about strategy: the failure of Roosevelt and Churchill to make shrewd choices as World War II played out. McMeekin brilliantly argues that instead of weighting the European and Pacific theaters to favor their own interests—and to weaken the inevitably antagonistic Soviet Union—FDR and Churchill left the most critical parts of Asia unguarded while they ground down the German army, a decision that favored Stalin’s interests far more than their own. Roosevelt’s ‘Germany first’ strategy and the trillion dollars of Lend Lease aid he poured into Stalin’s treasury would underwrite Soviet control of China and East Central Europe after 1945 and hatch a Cold War whose dire effects are with us still.”―Geoffrey Wawro, author of Sons of Freedom and director of the University of North Texas Military History Center

    And very favorable reviews in The Financial Times and The Guardian.
     

    McMeekin doesn’t say he’s absolutely sure that Stalin was about to launch a massive attack in the West, but he does seem to think it seemed pretty likely. In fact, Stalin became worried as he began to realize that his attack plans might be falling behind those of Hitler. Obviously, launching an attack to seize the Romanian oil fields that were absolutely vital to Germany meant an all-out war, and Suvorov had also emphasized that was going to be Stalin’s main thrust.

    One major difference is that McMeekin doesn’t seem to think that Hitler was aware of Stalin’s looming attack, so it probably wasn’t responsible for Barbarossa. He thought Stalin would probably attack sooner or later, but didn’t realize that the enormous attack forces had already been concentrated on the border.

    Since McMeekin covers the entire war period, the Suvorov Hypothesis is only one element of his account, basically a couple of chapters or so, but I’d say his verdict is pretty similar to what I said in my 2018 article, though vastly more thoroughly researched and documented:
     

    Those questions of verification and credibility were naturally the first things that came to my mind when I read Suvorov’s book a decade or so ago. However, the case seemed quite strong.

    (1) Suvorov’s seminal work had been almost totally blacklisted in the Anglosphere for two decades, never republished and never discussed, even while he sold millions of copies in Russian, German, and many other languages. Obviously, there was a concerted effort to suppress him.

    (2) In 2008 he was finally published in English by the prestigious Naval Academy Press of Annapolis. The international debate about his theory and his evidence had been fiercely raging for twenty years, and I thought unlikely that a highly-regarded military academic press would have broken the boycott and released his work if his evidence were ridiculous or fabricated.

    (3) I don’t read Russian or German, but everyone pointed to the Glantz book as being the most powerful English-language refutation to Suvorov, so I read it and was extremely disappointed. Glantz merely devoted a couple of pages of his introduction to denouncing Suvorov in very general terms, and never once disputed any of Suvorov’s hundreds of very specific factual claims. Since Glantz had the benefit years of heated international debate, that seemed to confirm that all of Suvorov’s facts were correct, or at least could not easily be challenged.

    (4) The current McMeekin book seems to completely settle the issue. McMeekin is a very solid and reputable scholar, and his book was widely praised by leading mainstream historians. McMeekin did a great deal of archival research, and seems to have almost totally confirmed Suvorov’s factual claims, even including those that had raised the greatest doubts with me.

    For example, Suvorov claimed that the USSR had a *million* trained paratroopers, obviously a purely offensive force, and a total something like 100x larger than the rest of the world combined. When I published my original 2018 article, some people said that figure was total lunacy, and proved Suvorov was lying. His footnote referred to some particular filing box in the Kremlin archives, and since I don’t read Russian nor plan to visit Moscow, I couldn’t confirm his claim. But McMeekin said the same thing, and cited a big article in Pravda making that same claim, thereby confirming Suvorov.

    Since Suvorov is still totally “radioactive” in the Anglosphere, McMeekin had to be extremely cautious, and only mentioned his name in a single sentence. But his book absolutely confirms the essential correctness of the Suvorov Hypothesis more than three decades after it appeared.
     
    https://www.unz.com/article/barbarossa-suvorovs-revisionism-goes-mainstream/?showcomments#comment-4672101

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin, @Bashibuzuk, @AltanBakshi, @Thorfinnsson

    I remember reading Suvorov’s books in the early 2000s and my impression was that it absolutely made sense. Soviet Union was a proto-Globalist project that was supposed to expand its ideology and system as far as possible. At the times, a war was the only way for it to happen.

    [MORE]

    It is only after the war, after US dropped the A bombes on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, the USSR lost 25 million dead and got its most productive regions devastated, that the Communist project had to become less brazen in its prospects.

    Then Soviet elites started talking about detente, coexistence and convergence. By the end of the 1970ies they decided to drop the Communist ideology and integrate in the Globalized West that had moved forward with the capitalist Globalisation. But either Communist, or Capitalist or some mix of both (the Chinese model) Globalism was the outcome we were moving towards ever since the defeat of the Nazi Reich.

    Soviet Russians were used as cannon fodder by the worldwide early Globalist elites in the 1930ies. Today it’s the Americans’ turn to play this role. Probably tomorrow it’ll be the Chinese…

  106. @iffen
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Suck-up.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

    In what sense? I never hid that I disagree with Ron Unz on multiple WW2 questions. It is however obviously true that there’s no point in me discussing McMeekin’s book in detail when I’ve only read the first three chapters and skimmed over a few other parts of interest (on the basis of which I wrote this comment to Hanania’s post).

    • Replies: @iffen
    @Anatoly Karlin

    It's okay.

    I like your blog and I wouldn't want to see you end up in the shit-can with Peter.

    Careful readers can penetrate the saccharine aura of this webzine and see that it makes an invalid claim to the "moral high ground" in journalism vis-a-vis the MSM.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

  107. AP says:
    @Not Raul
    @AP


    Among elite Russians I know, one sees things like descent from a priest who hid his former vocation, a merchant family from the Volga who moved to Baku after the Revolution to become proles down there as a way of “laundering” their former status before returning to another Russian region where they and their descendent had brilliant careers ( including in the Party itself lol), etc.
     
    This is very interesting. So, are members of the postwar elite in the Soviet Union more likely (relative to their share of the population) to be Russians from non-Russian areas (some of whom underwent status laundering) than Russians from Russian areas (where status laundering was possibly less common)?

    Replies: @AP

    Don’t know. But one wouldn’t necessarily have to change republics, just change cities. Move from a village where one was a kulaks’s or priest’ s child to a city far away, and become a former peasant, current factory worker. Then as such get into a medical institute, or join the Party, etc. The same genetic gifts associated with former status will be helpful in terms of regaining status in the new world. These games are of course inefficient and wasteful on a societal level of course.

    • Thanks: Not Raul
  108. As I posted before, I have played (and usually lost) online chess against hundreds of Russians, and they tend to favor what chess players call “quiet moves.” U.S. players are more impetuous, and even reckless. I wonder whether my “quiet moves” observation can be extrapolated to the slowness to adopt vaccination. Or to Mr. Putin’s slowness to produce doses.

  109. @Thorfinnsson
    @LondonBob

    Equities as a whole did not perform well during the great inflation of the 1970s, but there were standouts during this period. Teledyne and Coca Cola for instance. And in the mid-1970s a remarkable boom in small-cap stocks, which rose over 13% pa from 1976 - 1983.

    It should also be pointed out that there was a brutal bear market in '73-74 which put a damper on the period, and equities far outperformed bonds and cash. True enough that the real stars of this period were gold and oil, but there's no guarantee during inflationary periods that commodities will shine in real terms.

    I also don't get the picture that people in the 1970s were only spending money on necessities. Look at vintage advertisements of the period--normal consumption continued:

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/72/82/fa/7282fa93ad58c50b55c65acf204a2d1d.jpg

    Today personal luxury coupes (pretty much the opposite of the necessity) barely even exist.

    Remember that it was a period of high inflation, not hyperinflation.

    Replies: @Dmitry

    This is a classic picture. It is presented like a diagram, and it could be used to illustrate Adorno’s theory of the culture industry.

    Arrangement of the picture is like a circuit diagram, and its format looks more complex than the normal “Pavlovian conditioning” arrangement.

    There is a picture in middle of the animal’s “reward” – wedding day with your beautiful girlfriend, run on the beach.

    And at the top, of the older attractive wife looking at you with admiration, remembering your witty comments, as you drive home from a dinner party.

    These pictures are the “reward” for the ape. But we put in front of them the expensive piece of metal, and the difficult to understand instruction or “recipe” text that he has to read.

    Picture of the car and the written instruction is presented as if it XNOR gate. Animal needs to reach the happy people on the beach, anticlockwise, but we imply it can only get to that part of the picture by solving the first picture and the written instruction.

    Although it seems like this advertising requires stupidity to succeed, it’s a result of the way we are wired with a bypass for receiving external instructions.

    An octopus would have no problem with these traps, ignoring the metal object, and swimming to its mating ritual. But we have the bypass installed for receiving instructions, even such pitiable ones where Madison Avenue has added diagrams of a mating ritual to include pieces of metal their client wanted to sell.

    Of course, this is not some accident or contradiction to society. It’s one of the main raisons d’êtres of 1970s America: very cool automobiles, if downsized by Arab oil embargoes after the Yom Kippur War. Perhaps, god has created us to produce automobiles not happy families.

    • LOL: Yellowface Anon
  110. Breaking News:

    A great person who was friend to whistleblowers and dissidents and truthtellers has passed away. Technologist, security expert and organizer Kevin Gallagher (age 35) was discovered deceased in his San Francisco apartment on June 10. Early word from the local coroner is that he passed away June 5, his birthday.

    He was active in both professional and activist circles across the US, where he was known as a digital security specialist and committed to curtailing abuses of government power (his website domain ‘cointel.pro’ references the infamous FBI surveillance and infiltration program). He was a certified Linux systems administrator who aided many projects like the Library Freedom Project, the Calyx Institute, and Transparency Toolkit as well as companies like Cloudflare and Pandora.

    In 2016 he testified in defense of Lauri Love, a UK-based hacker who once faced extradition to the United States. Gallaher’s journalism played a role in drawing more attention to the Stratfor emails, which were indexed by Wikileaks and are still searchable to this day (https://search.wikileaks.org/gifiles/).

    Gallagher was among the early proponents of ‘cryptoparties,’ events aimed at training people in cryptography tools and personal computer security. He also wrote in Medium, The Daily Beast, The Guardian, HuffPost, Vice Motherboard, and DailyDot to raise issues he cared about.

  111. Large new IPSOS survey of LGBT attitudes internationally. Summary.

    Nearly 1 in 5 young adults say they’re not straight, global survey finds [NBC News, June 9th, 2021]

    The survey, conducted in 27 countries, also found that 4 percent of those in Generation Z identify as transgender, nonbinary, gender-nonconforming or gender-fluid.

    Related:
    Audacious Epigone, April 27th:
    Interest in Open Relationships by Sexual Orientation

    Steve Sailer:
    LGBT Recruitment Drive Succeeding Wildly (February)

    My Review of “Irreversible Damage: the Transgender Craze Seducing Our Daughters” (March)

    Interestingly, if not entirely surprisingly, India has the highest percentage of people who identify as non-heterosexual.

    Why do you say “not entirely surprisingly”? Some reason particular to India?

  112. @Pericles
    @angmoh

    I think assortative mating is primarily driven by educational institutions herding together the smart people when they are about to do family formation. Let me add 'at scale'. They do it at scale rather than the amateurish versions of country clubs or whatever.

    If so, then perhaps it's a passing fad. E.g., if universities add too many strange and/or sub-par animals to their herds then the assortative mating will become assortative in other directions than, say, intelligence or talent.

    Regarding PISA, revealed in mid-2020 but I hadn't noticed until now: it turns out the improved PISA 2018 results for Sweden were founded on sorting away the 11% of students who didn't know sufficient Swedish, after at least one year of study, including foreigners from various odd countries but also some born in Sweden. (The permitted limit is apparently 5%.)

    At least one school motivated this with they 'wanted to focus on what is best for the student'. Lol, yes, education is primarily about the emotions experienced by those in the classroom.

    A couple of links (in Swedish):
    https://www.expressen.se/nyheter/qs/sveriges-pisa-framgang-bygger-pa-falska-siffror/
    https://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/a/Ga9d24/sa-kom-sveriges-pisa-resultat-i-snalblasten

    Replies: @angmoh

    Will be interesting to see how it pans out, but my guess is that people aren’t simply choosing from the pool of people who attend college. I am confident that elites will quickly adapt and find new status markers to keep assortative mating humming along once tertiary education becomes a less reliable signal.

    Most modern young people aren’t thinking about marriage at all until 25-30yo, at which point profession becomes a big part of identity. The majority of people find partners on dating apps now, and they all show your job. Most high earners discriminate liberally – my impression is that among top the top 20% or so, assortative mating is becoming even more efficient.

    Thinking of 5 closes couple friends I know (all late 20s or 30s);
    – Doctor & doctor
    – Finance guy & dentist
    – Govt drone & govt drone
    – Finance guy & finance gal
    – Lawyer & lawyer

    When I cast my mind further afield the same dynamics are at play. Maybe my peer group is unique (many first gen migrants, almost zero ‘old money’) – but the trends are striking to me.

  113. @Dissident
    @Yellowface Anon


    an abnormal transplant of your physical self into places you don’t belong
     
    1.) Couldn't the same be said about the automobile? Or even any technological advance in travel, going back at least as far as the wheel? By your apparent logic, couldn't you argue that traveling farther than is possible by riding an animal is "abnormal"?

    2.) If one were to remove the qualifier "physical" from your statement, couldn't it be applied to any form of telecommunication? Including the one that all of us reading and participating in this thread are using: the Internet.

    Related motif pic:
    https://cdni.rbth.com/rbthmedia/images/2020.06/original/5ede965815e9f973c81e6872.jpg

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon

    I was just coping with the apparent changes in what is available and what isn’t (and I have a lot of sympathies with the agrarian folks)

    • Replies: @Dissident
    @Yellowface Anon


    I was just coping with the apparent changes in what is available and what isn’t (and I have a lot of sympathies with the agrarian folks)
     
    Thanks.

    Incidentally, I wondered whether anyone would recognize the photo.


    These railway lines are intended for children aged 10 to 18 who want to learn more about how railways work.
    [...]
    Every year, 15,000 children receive practical training on children's railways. More than half of them later go on to complete related university degrees in order to pursue a professional railway career.
     
    Quite tangentially, how much, if at all, might linguistic differences between English and Russian account for the use of the single term children to include adolescents as old as eighteen? Granted, such an inclusive usage would seem entirely consistent with several of the definitions for child found in reputable English dictionaries, both American as well as British.

    Still, does such a usage not sound awkward? Would not the greater precision and clarity of an alternative such as children and adolescents...; children and teenagers..; or simply youth..., or youngsters... make for a smoother, more common, more standard usage? Does the Russian language make less of a distinction between children and adolescents than does English?

  114. The real virus is neither SARS-COV-2 nor globalist state authoritarianism. It is liberalism which spawned all the ill in the world, capitalism, socialism, fascism, nationalism, and the twin of 2020.

    • Replies: @Yellowface Anon
    @Yellowface Anon

    I am really prone to making hasty pronouncements and picking up a lot of poor (or what seems to be right) thinking, but yeah, some of those have grains of truth in it and I've learnt good things.

    https://katehon.com/en/article/carl-schmitt-xxi-century

    Good addition to my booklist to wash away the taste of Arendt.

  115. On the topic of “transhumanism”, or more accurately, the idea of quantifying everything in life, I’ve been using the Muse 2 for quite some time as a neurofeedback device that monitors brainwaves and confirm a kind of meditative state for the user. It also comes with a host of other feedback monitors, including the heart rate.

    I’m happy to say that I’ve accomplished something recently that I had not expected, given that my regular practice only started late last year(and the Muse 2, only around March) – I’ve actually found myself able to lower my heart beat at will, and by a considerable extent: to the mid-60s from the 90s which was my normal rate.

    This was such a massive change that I doubted it and reconfirmed separately with another app, which also confirmed the lowered heart rate. So it appears to be true, and I’m pretty amazed by it.

    All in all, I definitely recommend the Muse for anyone looking into a neurofeedback device.

    • Thanks: Bashibuzuk
  116. @Yellowface Anon
    The real virus is neither SARS-COV-2 nor globalist state authoritarianism. It is liberalism which spawned all the ill in the world, capitalism, socialism, fascism, nationalism, and the twin of 2020.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon

    I am really prone to making hasty pronouncements and picking up a lot of poor (or what seems to be right) thinking, but yeah, some of those have grains of truth in it and I’ve learnt good things.

    https://katehon.com/en/article/carl-schmitt-xxi-century

    Good addition to my booklist to wash away the taste of Arendt.

  117. @The Big Red Scary
    @reiner Tor

    Short the Jews, go long on Brahmins, of which there is a huge reservoir. Use Mandarins as a hedge, since there are so many of them that at least some of them will figure out to be smooth-talkers.

    Replies: @The Big Red Scary, @Blinky Bill

    Short the Jews, go long on Brahmins, of which there is a huge reservoir. Use Mandarins as a hedge

    You clearly have a great understanding of Humanity.

    • Thanks: Mr. Hack
  118. @Yellowface Anon
    @Yellowface Anon

    (Most HKers are actually minimizing their personal loss from their wanted attack on the territory by emigrating with their money. This is some kind of scorched earth strategy only conceivable by rootless cosmopolitans HKers are, one that was unwittingly imposed on the Jews after Roman repression in the 1st century.)

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

    • Replies: @Yellowface Anon
    @Blinky Bill

    I haven't, but (this is a viewpoint floating in the emigrant-pitching part of HK web) who won't want a millions-strong pool of hard-working and usually intelligent immigrants?

    Let's see how it turned out for every country welcoming the Jews. (but at least HKers aren't hostile to their new hosts)

    Replies: @notanon

  119. @Ron Unz

    Incidentally, I have started reading Stalin’s War. Not far in, but my initial impressions are that McMeekin is weak on military realism – he seems to think that Allied Lend-Lease that went to the USSR would have instead translated into the Anglo-Americans freeing the Polish death camps had those resources been devoted to their own war effort instead.
     
    McMeekin possibly does overemphasize the importance of Lend-Lease to the Soviet war effort. But otherwise, his book is absolutely outstanding, with his exhaustive archival research fully confirming the basic reality of the Suvorov Hypothesis more than three decades after it appeared, and numerous other crucial WWII issues. Here are a few of my comments drawn from the extremely long thread that reviewed his book last month:

    He obviously had to tread very carefully, but it’s very nice to see that after more than thirty years, he’s now managed to bring the Suvorov Hypothesis in from the cold, while providing a great quantity of additional documentary material that fully confirms its essential correctness. McMeekin’s book received glowing praise from numerous leading mainstream historians, so by implication Suvorov is now being incorporated into our accepted history.

    I was very pleased that Laurent said he’d discovered the issue from my own 2018 article, and it looks like my own judgment has now been entirely validated. Here’s the link for those who want to read it:

    https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-when-stalin-almost-conquered-europe/

    I was also very pleased to see that McMeekin gives a great deal of attention to the planned 1940 Allied attack against Soviet Russia, which was only halted by Hitler’s conquest of France. As far as I can tell, he’s provided the only account of that decisive turning point published in any Western history book in the last 70-odd years. Indeed, he plausibly argues that Stalin’s closely-related effort to seek peace with Finland was probably the most important decision he made during the entire war:

    https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-how-hitler-saved-the-allies/

    I think this also tends to greatly increase the likelihood that the rest of my long analysis of World War II is also probably correct:

    https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-understanding-world-war-ii/
     

    I’m now nearly done with the McMeekin book, and it seems absolutely outstanding. It’s also amazing how many “fringe conspiracy theories” turn out to be completely true.

    For example, a year or two ago I read the short memoirs of FDR’s former son-in-law, which was published by a rightwing fringe-group (in his later years, that son-in-law had become chairman of a different rightwing fringe group).

    He claimed that towards the end of the war, the US government had become dissatisfied with President Chiang Kai-shek of China, and therefore decided to have him assassinated, though it ultimately never happened.

    Given the extreme fringe-source, I’ve never really been sure whether the story was nonsense, though I’ve occasionally mentioned it in comments, emphasizing that it was just a claim by FDR’s son-in-law.

    Meekin demonstrates that it was absolutely true, citing the personal memoirs of a high-ranking and highly-credible American official.

    I think this also greatly enhances the credibility of David Irving’s (far more solidly attested) claims that Churchill had assassinated the head of the Polish government in exile, and had tried but failed to assassinate Charles de Gaulle.
     

    Well, I just finished McMeekin’s book, which runs over 800 pages, but goes quickly.

    Absolutely excellent, one of the best histories I’ve read in several years. He’s obviously under certain constraints, but it’s remarkable how much “true history” he managed to get into a mainstream work.

    Not only does he give proper attention to Operation Pike, perhaps the first history in 75 years that does, but numerous other important items stand out, not only including the American plans to assassinate China’s President Chiang, one of the supposed “Big Four” of the Allies. And most importantly, the Suvorov Hypothesis has now finally been smuggled into fully mainstream historiography after thirty years.

    But what’s most astonishing is the absolutely glowing blurbs he received from prominent, absolutely mainstream historians, as seen on his jacket or the Amazon page:

    “Sean McMeekin’s approach in Stalin’s War is both original and refreshing, written as it is with a wonderful clarity.”―Antony Beevor, author of Stalingrad

    “Gripping, authoritative, accessible, and always bracingly revisionist.”―Simon Sebag Montefiore, author of Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar

    “Stalin’s War is above all about strategy: the failure of Roosevelt and Churchill to make shrewd choices as World War II played out. McMeekin brilliantly argues that instead of weighting the European and Pacific theaters to favor their own interests—and to weaken the inevitably antagonistic Soviet Union—FDR and Churchill left the most critical parts of Asia unguarded while they ground down the German army, a decision that favored Stalin’s interests far more than their own. Roosevelt’s ‘Germany first’ strategy and the trillion dollars of Lend Lease aid he poured into Stalin’s treasury would underwrite Soviet control of China and East Central Europe after 1945 and hatch a Cold War whose dire effects are with us still.”―Geoffrey Wawro, author of Sons of Freedom and director of the University of North Texas Military History Center

    And very favorable reviews in The Financial Times and The Guardian.
     

    McMeekin doesn’t say he’s absolutely sure that Stalin was about to launch a massive attack in the West, but he does seem to think it seemed pretty likely. In fact, Stalin became worried as he began to realize that his attack plans might be falling behind those of Hitler. Obviously, launching an attack to seize the Romanian oil fields that were absolutely vital to Germany meant an all-out war, and Suvorov had also emphasized that was going to be Stalin’s main thrust.

    One major difference is that McMeekin doesn’t seem to think that Hitler was aware of Stalin’s looming attack, so it probably wasn’t responsible for Barbarossa. He thought Stalin would probably attack sooner or later, but didn’t realize that the enormous attack forces had already been concentrated on the border.

    Since McMeekin covers the entire war period, the Suvorov Hypothesis is only one element of his account, basically a couple of chapters or so, but I’d say his verdict is pretty similar to what I said in my 2018 article, though vastly more thoroughly researched and documented:
     

    Those questions of verification and credibility were naturally the first things that came to my mind when I read Suvorov’s book a decade or so ago. However, the case seemed quite strong.

    (1) Suvorov’s seminal work had been almost totally blacklisted in the Anglosphere for two decades, never republished and never discussed, even while he sold millions of copies in Russian, German, and many other languages. Obviously, there was a concerted effort to suppress him.

    (2) In 2008 he was finally published in English by the prestigious Naval Academy Press of Annapolis. The international debate about his theory and his evidence had been fiercely raging for twenty years, and I thought unlikely that a highly-regarded military academic press would have broken the boycott and released his work if his evidence were ridiculous or fabricated.

    (3) I don’t read Russian or German, but everyone pointed to the Glantz book as being the most powerful English-language refutation to Suvorov, so I read it and was extremely disappointed. Glantz merely devoted a couple of pages of his introduction to denouncing Suvorov in very general terms, and never once disputed any of Suvorov’s hundreds of very specific factual claims. Since Glantz had the benefit years of heated international debate, that seemed to confirm that all of Suvorov’s facts were correct, or at least could not easily be challenged.

    (4) The current McMeekin book seems to completely settle the issue. McMeekin is a very solid and reputable scholar, and his book was widely praised by leading mainstream historians. McMeekin did a great deal of archival research, and seems to have almost totally confirmed Suvorov’s factual claims, even including those that had raised the greatest doubts with me.

    For example, Suvorov claimed that the USSR had a *million* trained paratroopers, obviously a purely offensive force, and a total something like 100x larger than the rest of the world combined. When I published my original 2018 article, some people said that figure was total lunacy, and proved Suvorov was lying. His footnote referred to some particular filing box in the Kremlin archives, and since I don’t read Russian nor plan to visit Moscow, I couldn’t confirm his claim. But McMeekin said the same thing, and cited a big article in Pravda making that same claim, thereby confirming Suvorov.

    Since Suvorov is still totally “radioactive” in the Anglosphere, McMeekin had to be extremely cautious, and only mentioned his name in a single sentence. But his book absolutely confirms the essential correctness of the Suvorov Hypothesis more than three decades after it appeared.
     
    https://www.unz.com/article/barbarossa-suvorovs-revisionism-goes-mainstream/?showcomments#comment-4672101

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin, @Bashibuzuk, @AltanBakshi, @Thorfinnsson

    To me it would be most odd if someone as cautious as Stalin would have contemplated attack against the West after the fiasco of Winter War and Purges of Red Army’s officer corps. Stalin was not a gambler like Hitler. Even his rise to power was through careful attention to details and planning, he was too wary and risk averse to really contemplate such shenanigans as grand surpise attack to the west. Or why else he did so many purges? Because he was not as sure about his position as Hitler, and had not as much trust in his state’s institutions.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @AltanBakshi

    This is a valid observation. But Stalin was also well aware that it is best to fight an offensive war on the enemy's territory. Also, the war between Soviets and Nazis was inevitable anyway and Stalin was well aware of that, even though he publicly pretended otherwise. And Stalin was also well capable of taking quick and decisive action when needed if he thought that the time was right. In fact, by his "gambling" aggressive move on the 22nd June of 1941, Hitler might have (inadvertently?) done the only thing that prevented the total victory of the Soviets in Europe which Stalin carefully planned for.



    In case you didn't read it:

    https://www.litmir.me/br/?b=576530&p=1

    I would say that Suvorov's "The Last Republic " was even more important and convincing from my personal point of view.

    https://www.litmir.me/br/?b=26360&p=1

    , @notanon
    @AltanBakshi


    To me it would be most odd if someone as cautious as Stalin would have contemplated attack against the West after the fiasco of Winter War and Purges of Red Army’s officer corps.
     
    i don't have a view on the broader question but the Bolsheviks did invade Poland in the 1920s and we know Stalin wanted to invade Poland and Finland because he did

    so at a minimum i could see him thinking on how to get Poland *without* war with the west.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Mikhail

  120. @Blinky Bill
    @Yellowface Anon

    Have you read it?

    https://www.unz.com/jthompson/costly-immigration/

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon

    I haven’t, but (this is a viewpoint floating in the emigrant-pitching part of HK web) who won’t want a millions-strong pool of hard-working and usually intelligent immigrants?

    [MORE]

    Let’s see how it turned out for every country welcoming the Jews. (but at least HKers aren’t hostile to their new hosts)

    • Replies: @notanon
    @Yellowface Anon


    who won’t want a millions-strong pool of hard-working and usually intelligent immigrants?
     
    familial nepotism is why those countries are poor

    (and being hard-working and intelligent makes it worse)
  121. @Anatoly Karlin
    @iffen

    In what sense? I never hid that I disagree with Ron Unz on multiple WW2 questions. It is however obviously true that there's no point in me discussing McMeekin's book in detail when I've only read the first three chapters and skimmed over a few other parts of interest (on the basis of which I wrote this comment to Hanania's post).

    Replies: @iffen

    It’s okay.

    I like your blog and I wouldn’t want to see you end up in the shit-can with Peter.

    Careful readers can penetrate the saccharine aura of this webzine and see that it makes an invalid claim to the “moral high ground” in journalism vis-a-vis the MSM.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    @iffen

    What "Peter"?

    I am still not getting your point. FTR, I have full editorial independence on my own blog. If you're implying I could be "ejected" for disagreeing with Unz on various issues, well that seems rather unlikely, given that many of the bloggers and columnists regularly disagree with him (and each other) on all sorts of issues.

    Replies: @iffen

  122. @iffen
    @Anatoly Karlin

    It's okay.

    I like your blog and I wouldn't want to see you end up in the shit-can with Peter.

    Careful readers can penetrate the saccharine aura of this webzine and see that it makes an invalid claim to the "moral high ground" in journalism vis-a-vis the MSM.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

    What “Peter”?

    I am still not getting your point. FTR, I have full editorial independence on my own blog. If you’re implying I could be “ejected” for disagreeing with Unz on various issues, well that seems rather unlikely, given that many of the bloggers and columnists regularly disagree with him (and each other) on all sorts of issues.

    • Replies: @iffen
    @Anatoly Karlin

    What “Peter”?

    Dang, you Russkies are good at the unperson thing.

    Peter Frost

    that seems rather unlikely

    Write a review of McMeekin's book with special attention to Sokurov 's thesis vis-a-vis mainstream historians.

    See if you are allowed to tell your readers that there is no cat, hell, there's not even a bag.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

  123. Bashibuzuk says:
    @AltanBakshi
    @Ron Unz

    To me it would be most odd if someone as cautious as Stalin would have contemplated attack against the West after the fiasco of Winter War and Purges of Red Army's officer corps. Stalin was not a gambler like Hitler. Even his rise to power was through careful attention to details and planning, he was too wary and risk averse to really contemplate such shenanigans as grand surpise attack to the west. Or why else he did so many purges? Because he was not as sure about his position as Hitler, and had not as much trust in his state's institutions.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @notanon

    This is a valid observation. But Stalin was also well aware that it is best to fight an offensive war on the enemy’s territory. Also, the war between Soviets and Nazis was inevitable anyway and Stalin was well aware of that, even though he publicly pretended otherwise. And Stalin was also well capable of taking quick and decisive action when needed if he thought that the time was right. In fact, by his “gambling” aggressive move on the 22nd June of 1941, Hitler might have (inadvertently?) done the only thing that prevented the total victory of the Soviets in Europe which Stalin carefully planned for.

    [MORE]

    In case you didn’t read it:

    https://www.litmir.me/br/?b=576530&p=1

    I would say that Suvorov’s “The Last Republic ” was even more important and convincing from my personal point of view.

    https://www.litmir.me/br/?b=26360&p=1

  124. @Anatoly Karlin
    @iffen

    What "Peter"?

    I am still not getting your point. FTR, I have full editorial independence on my own blog. If you're implying I could be "ejected" for disagreeing with Unz on various issues, well that seems rather unlikely, given that many of the bloggers and columnists regularly disagree with him (and each other) on all sorts of issues.

    Replies: @iffen

    What “Peter”?

    Dang, you Russkies are good at the unperson thing.

    Peter Frost

    that seems rather unlikely

    Write a review of McMeekin’s book with special attention to Sokurov ‘s thesis vis-a-vis mainstream historians.

    See if you are allowed to tell your readers that there is no cat, hell, there’s not even a bag.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    @iffen


    Dang, you Russkies are good at the unperson thing.
     
    I mean, there are many Peters, LOL.

    From what I recall, Peter Frost banned Unz from commenting on an article on Unz's own website. That's a rather extreme thing to do so it's hardly surprising that things turned out the way they did.

    Write a review of McMeekin’s book with special attention to Sokurov ‘s thesis vis-a-vis mainstream historians.

    See if you are allowed to tell your readers that there is no cat, hell, there’s not even a bag.
     
    Yes, I'll probably do that.

    Yesterday I skipped a bunch of chapters ahead and specifically read the sections on the immediate prelude to Barbarossa as well as the first month after it. As I expected, there is no crypto-endorsement of the Suvorov Hypothesis - namely, the specific claim that Stalin had concrete plans to strike first and that Hitler preempted him, not observations such as that USSR had militarized at a breakneck speed (well, so had Germany from 1935, that's what you generally do when you expect a big war, regardless of whether you want to start it) or that the Red Army was obsessed with offensive operations (by that standard, you can blame WW1 on France, LOL).

    McMeekin clearly does want some soft variant of the Suvorov Hypothesis to be true and to this end spends a lot of pages recounting the Soviet paper superiority in tanks, aircraft, and artillery in order to give a certain impression while not saying it out loud. But the basic and more relevant fact is that the Red Army was vastly less combat effective than the Wehrmacht, due to well-known human capital deficiencies and institutional problems, so it would have been eaten up just as quickly and perhaps even quicker even it had managed to attack first (basic military rule: defense is easier than offense). Also, even from purely material considerations, the German forces were much better equipped with munitions (making the Soviet advantage in guns irrelevant) and they were much more motorized from the beginning to the end of the war (people like to cite 600k horses used in Barbarossa, what they cite less frequently is that the Germans likewise had 600k motor vehicles, the Soviets only reached that number in Jan 1945, LOL). Once one starts looking at these important details, the Soviet de facto material advantage over Nazi Germany plummets, and in between that and the Red Army's intrinsically lower combat effectiveness (i.e. adjusted for material factors), what happened in 1941 was inevitable.

    Replies: @iffen

  125. @iffen
    @Anatoly Karlin

    What “Peter”?

    Dang, you Russkies are good at the unperson thing.

    Peter Frost

    that seems rather unlikely

    Write a review of McMeekin's book with special attention to Sokurov 's thesis vis-a-vis mainstream historians.

    See if you are allowed to tell your readers that there is no cat, hell, there's not even a bag.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

    Dang, you Russkies are good at the unperson thing.

    I mean, there are many Peters, LOL.

    From what I recall, Peter Frost banned Unz from commenting on an article on Unz’s own website. That’s a rather extreme thing to do so it’s hardly surprising that things turned out the way they did.

    Write a review of McMeekin’s book with special attention to Sokurov ‘s thesis vis-a-vis mainstream historians.

    See if you are allowed to tell your readers that there is no cat, hell, there’s not even a bag.

    Yes, I’ll probably do that.

    Yesterday I skipped a bunch of chapters ahead and specifically read the sections on the immediate prelude to Barbarossa as well as the first month after it. As I expected, there is no crypto-endorsement of the Suvorov Hypothesis – namely, the specific claim that Stalin had concrete plans to strike first and that Hitler preempted him, not observations such as that USSR had militarized at a breakneck speed (well, so had Germany from 1935, that’s what you generally do when you expect a big war, regardless of whether you want to start it) or that the Red Army was obsessed with offensive operations (by that standard, you can blame WW1 on France, LOL).

    McMeekin clearly does want some soft variant of the Suvorov Hypothesis to be true and to this end spends a lot of pages recounting the Soviet paper superiority in tanks, aircraft, and artillery in order to give a certain impression while not saying it out loud. But the basic and more relevant fact is that the Red Army was vastly less combat effective than the Wehrmacht, due to well-known human capital deficiencies and institutional problems, so it would have been eaten up just as quickly and perhaps even quicker even it had managed to attack first (basic military rule: defense is easier than offense). Also, even from purely material considerations, the German forces were much better equipped with munitions (making the Soviet advantage in guns irrelevant) and they were much more motorized from the beginning to the end of the war (people like to cite 600k horses used in Barbarossa, what they cite less frequently is that the Germans likewise had 600k motor vehicles, the Soviets only reached that number in Jan 1945, LOL). Once one starts looking at these important details, the Soviet de facto material advantage over Nazi Germany plummets, and in between that and the Red Army’s intrinsically lower combat effectiveness (i.e. adjusted for material factors), what happened in 1941 was inevitable.

    • Agree: Coconuts
    • Replies: @iffen
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Yes, I’ll probably do that.

    Good, I like being proven wrong sometimes.

    so it would have been eaten up just as quickly and perhaps even quicker even it had managed to attack first

    No doubt, but would that have paused Stalin if he had decided to go. Obviously he was waiting and hoping the Allies would degrade Germany's military might, just as Roosevelt and Churchill were counting on the same result from the Eastern Front. They almost miscalculated the timing for D-Day and instead of meeting the Red Army at Berlin they almost allowed the Red Army a clean shot to the Channel instead.

    I think that you might let your hatred of the commies cloud some of your thinking on The Great Patriotic War.

  126. @Anatoly Karlin
    @iffen


    Dang, you Russkies are good at the unperson thing.
     
    I mean, there are many Peters, LOL.

    From what I recall, Peter Frost banned Unz from commenting on an article on Unz's own website. That's a rather extreme thing to do so it's hardly surprising that things turned out the way they did.

    Write a review of McMeekin’s book with special attention to Sokurov ‘s thesis vis-a-vis mainstream historians.

    See if you are allowed to tell your readers that there is no cat, hell, there’s not even a bag.
     
    Yes, I'll probably do that.

    Yesterday I skipped a bunch of chapters ahead and specifically read the sections on the immediate prelude to Barbarossa as well as the first month after it. As I expected, there is no crypto-endorsement of the Suvorov Hypothesis - namely, the specific claim that Stalin had concrete plans to strike first and that Hitler preempted him, not observations such as that USSR had militarized at a breakneck speed (well, so had Germany from 1935, that's what you generally do when you expect a big war, regardless of whether you want to start it) or that the Red Army was obsessed with offensive operations (by that standard, you can blame WW1 on France, LOL).

    McMeekin clearly does want some soft variant of the Suvorov Hypothesis to be true and to this end spends a lot of pages recounting the Soviet paper superiority in tanks, aircraft, and artillery in order to give a certain impression while not saying it out loud. But the basic and more relevant fact is that the Red Army was vastly less combat effective than the Wehrmacht, due to well-known human capital deficiencies and institutional problems, so it would have been eaten up just as quickly and perhaps even quicker even it had managed to attack first (basic military rule: defense is easier than offense). Also, even from purely material considerations, the German forces were much better equipped with munitions (making the Soviet advantage in guns irrelevant) and they were much more motorized from the beginning to the end of the war (people like to cite 600k horses used in Barbarossa, what they cite less frequently is that the Germans likewise had 600k motor vehicles, the Soviets only reached that number in Jan 1945, LOL). Once one starts looking at these important details, the Soviet de facto material advantage over Nazi Germany plummets, and in between that and the Red Army's intrinsically lower combat effectiveness (i.e. adjusted for material factors), what happened in 1941 was inevitable.

    Replies: @iffen

    Yes, I’ll probably do that.

    Good, I like being proven wrong sometimes.

    so it would have been eaten up just as quickly and perhaps even quicker even it had managed to attack first

    No doubt, but would that have paused Stalin if he had decided to go. Obviously he was waiting and hoping the Allies would degrade Germany’s military might, just as Roosevelt and Churchill were counting on the same result from the Eastern Front. They almost miscalculated the timing for D-Day and instead of meeting the Red Army at Berlin they almost allowed the Red Army a clean shot to the Channel instead.

    I think that you might let your hatred of the commies cloud some of your thinking on The Great Patriotic War.

  127. @Ron Unz

    Incidentally, I have started reading Stalin’s War. Not far in, but my initial impressions are that McMeekin is weak on military realism – he seems to think that Allied Lend-Lease that went to the USSR would have instead translated into the Anglo-Americans freeing the Polish death camps had those resources been devoted to their own war effort instead.
     
    McMeekin possibly does overemphasize the importance of Lend-Lease to the Soviet war effort. But otherwise, his book is absolutely outstanding, with his exhaustive archival research fully confirming the basic reality of the Suvorov Hypothesis more than three decades after it appeared, and numerous other crucial WWII issues. Here are a few of my comments drawn from the extremely long thread that reviewed his book last month:

    He obviously had to tread very carefully, but it’s very nice to see that after more than thirty years, he’s now managed to bring the Suvorov Hypothesis in from the cold, while providing a great quantity of additional documentary material that fully confirms its essential correctness. McMeekin’s book received glowing praise from numerous leading mainstream historians, so by implication Suvorov is now being incorporated into our accepted history.

    I was very pleased that Laurent said he’d discovered the issue from my own 2018 article, and it looks like my own judgment has now been entirely validated. Here’s the link for those who want to read it:

    https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-when-stalin-almost-conquered-europe/

    I was also very pleased to see that McMeekin gives a great deal of attention to the planned 1940 Allied attack against Soviet Russia, which was only halted by Hitler’s conquest of France. As far as I can tell, he’s provided the only account of that decisive turning point published in any Western history book in the last 70-odd years. Indeed, he plausibly argues that Stalin’s closely-related effort to seek peace with Finland was probably the most important decision he made during the entire war:

    https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-how-hitler-saved-the-allies/

    I think this also tends to greatly increase the likelihood that the rest of my long analysis of World War II is also probably correct:

    https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-understanding-world-war-ii/
     

    I’m now nearly done with the McMeekin book, and it seems absolutely outstanding. It’s also amazing how many “fringe conspiracy theories” turn out to be completely true.

    For example, a year or two ago I read the short memoirs of FDR’s former son-in-law, which was published by a rightwing fringe-group (in his later years, that son-in-law had become chairman of a different rightwing fringe group).

    He claimed that towards the end of the war, the US government had become dissatisfied with President Chiang Kai-shek of China, and therefore decided to have him assassinated, though it ultimately never happened.

    Given the extreme fringe-source, I’ve never really been sure whether the story was nonsense, though I’ve occasionally mentioned it in comments, emphasizing that it was just a claim by FDR’s son-in-law.

    Meekin demonstrates that it was absolutely true, citing the personal memoirs of a high-ranking and highly-credible American official.

    I think this also greatly enhances the credibility of David Irving’s (far more solidly attested) claims that Churchill had assassinated the head of the Polish government in exile, and had tried but failed to assassinate Charles de Gaulle.
     

    Well, I just finished McMeekin’s book, which runs over 800 pages, but goes quickly.

    Absolutely excellent, one of the best histories I’ve read in several years. He’s obviously under certain constraints, but it’s remarkable how much “true history” he managed to get into a mainstream work.

    Not only does he give proper attention to Operation Pike, perhaps the first history in 75 years that does, but numerous other important items stand out, not only including the American plans to assassinate China’s President Chiang, one of the supposed “Big Four” of the Allies. And most importantly, the Suvorov Hypothesis has now finally been smuggled into fully mainstream historiography after thirty years.

    But what’s most astonishing is the absolutely glowing blurbs he received from prominent, absolutely mainstream historians, as seen on his jacket or the Amazon page:

    “Sean McMeekin’s approach in Stalin’s War is both original and refreshing, written as it is with a wonderful clarity.”―Antony Beevor, author of Stalingrad

    “Gripping, authoritative, accessible, and always bracingly revisionist.”―Simon Sebag Montefiore, author of Stalin: The Court of the Red Tsar

    “Stalin’s War is above all about strategy: the failure of Roosevelt and Churchill to make shrewd choices as World War II played out. McMeekin brilliantly argues that instead of weighting the European and Pacific theaters to favor their own interests—and to weaken the inevitably antagonistic Soviet Union—FDR and Churchill left the most critical parts of Asia unguarded while they ground down the German army, a decision that favored Stalin’s interests far more than their own. Roosevelt’s ‘Germany first’ strategy and the trillion dollars of Lend Lease aid he poured into Stalin’s treasury would underwrite Soviet control of China and East Central Europe after 1945 and hatch a Cold War whose dire effects are with us still.”―Geoffrey Wawro, author of Sons of Freedom and director of the University of North Texas Military History Center

    And very favorable reviews in The Financial Times and The Guardian.
     

    McMeekin doesn’t say he’s absolutely sure that Stalin was about to launch a massive attack in the West, but he does seem to think it seemed pretty likely. In fact, Stalin became worried as he began to realize that his attack plans might be falling behind those of Hitler. Obviously, launching an attack to seize the Romanian oil fields that were absolutely vital to Germany meant an all-out war, and Suvorov had also emphasized that was going to be Stalin’s main thrust.

    One major difference is that McMeekin doesn’t seem to think that Hitler was aware of Stalin’s looming attack, so it probably wasn’t responsible for Barbarossa. He thought Stalin would probably attack sooner or later, but didn’t realize that the enormous attack forces had already been concentrated on the border.

    Since McMeekin covers the entire war period, the Suvorov Hypothesis is only one element of his account, basically a couple of chapters or so, but I’d say his verdict is pretty similar to what I said in my 2018 article, though vastly more thoroughly researched and documented:
     

    Those questions of verification and credibility were naturally the first things that came to my mind when I read Suvorov’s book a decade or so ago. However, the case seemed quite strong.

    (1) Suvorov’s seminal work had been almost totally blacklisted in the Anglosphere for two decades, never republished and never discussed, even while he sold millions of copies in Russian, German, and many other languages. Obviously, there was a concerted effort to suppress him.

    (2) In 2008 he was finally published in English by the prestigious Naval Academy Press of Annapolis. The international debate about his theory and his evidence had been fiercely raging for twenty years, and I thought unlikely that a highly-regarded military academic press would have broken the boycott and released his work if his evidence were ridiculous or fabricated.

    (3) I don’t read Russian or German, but everyone pointed to the Glantz book as being the most powerful English-language refutation to Suvorov, so I read it and was extremely disappointed. Glantz merely devoted a couple of pages of his introduction to denouncing Suvorov in very general terms, and never once disputed any of Suvorov’s hundreds of very specific factual claims. Since Glantz had the benefit years of heated international debate, that seemed to confirm that all of Suvorov’s facts were correct, or at least could not easily be challenged.

    (4) The current McMeekin book seems to completely settle the issue. McMeekin is a very solid and reputable scholar, and his book was widely praised by leading mainstream historians. McMeekin did a great deal of archival research, and seems to have almost totally confirmed Suvorov’s factual claims, even including those that had raised the greatest doubts with me.

    For example, Suvorov claimed that the USSR had a *million* trained paratroopers, obviously a purely offensive force, and a total something like 100x larger than the rest of the world combined. When I published my original 2018 article, some people said that figure was total lunacy, and proved Suvorov was lying. His footnote referred to some particular filing box in the Kremlin archives, and since I don’t read Russian nor plan to visit Moscow, I couldn’t confirm his claim. But McMeekin said the same thing, and cited a big article in Pravda making that same claim, thereby confirming Suvorov.

    Since Suvorov is still totally “radioactive” in the Anglosphere, McMeekin had to be extremely cautious, and only mentioned his name in a single sentence. But his book absolutely confirms the essential correctness of the Suvorov Hypothesis more than three decades after it appeared.
     
    https://www.unz.com/article/barbarossa-suvorovs-revisionism-goes-mainstream/?showcomments#comment-4672101

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin, @Bashibuzuk, @AltanBakshi, @Thorfinnsson

    I see your obsession with one of the many Phony War / Sitzkrieg fanciful allied plans continues, and that you seem to think this is some kind of gnostic knowledge. Other allied schemes from this period involved landing troops in Northern Scandinavia, on the pretext of assisting the Finns, to stop Swedish exports of iron ore to Germany.

    In reality this plan is routinely discussed in WW2 histories. I just read two WW2 books, and both bring up the plan. The first is Richard Overy’s The Bombing War, and the second is Niklas Zetterling’s Blitzkrieg: From the Ground Up.

    Here’s the text from Overy’s book:

    Some sense of how difficult raiding was to be against targets quite remote from the aerial battlefield in western Europe had already become evident when in 1940, and again in 1941, the RAF undertook preparations to bomb the Soviet oilfields in the Caucasus region in order to deny Germany and Italy vital supplies of fuel. The plans in 1940 were prompted first by the French High Command, which wanted to strike at Soviet oil not only to undermine the trade with the Axis states but also to create a possible political crisis for the Soviet Union among the Moslem peoples of southern Russia. French military leaders were much happier about bombing the Soviet Union than bombing Germany.170 The British side agreed with the plan and drew up a detailed study in April 1940 for deploying 48 Blenheim light bombers from bases in Syria and Iraq, supported by 65 Glenn Martin bombers bought by the French from American production. RAF planners thought little of Soviet air and anti-aircraft defences, and like the French, hoped that a three-month attack on Batum, Baku and Grozny might lead sooner or later ‘to the complete collapse of the war potential of the USSR’, as well as disastrous repercussions for Germany.171 Chamberlain’s Cabinet thought the campaign too risky, and following the German attack on France on 10 May, the French abandoned the idea. But the RAF remained in a state of readiness to eliminate the entire Soviet oil industry in three months, assuming an average margin of error of 75 yards, a conclusion entirely at odds with all the bombing trials conducted in 1939 and 1940.172 The plan was revived again in June 1941 in the knowledge that Germany was about to attack the Soviet Union. There were strong recommendations from the British Embassy in Cairo and the chiefs of staff to use two squadrons of Wellington bombers and two of Blenheims for a month of intensive attacks, not only to deny the oil to the Germans but ‘to remind the Soviet of consequences of acceding to German demands’.173 Planning was completed by August 1941, but once again operational and strategic reality prevented a campaign in which the means were manifestly inadequate for the military and political ends desired.

    And here’s the text from Zetterling’s book:

    The Germans were far from alone in underestimating the Soviet military capacity. When Germany and the Soviet Union had signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact in August 1939, they had also agreed on a trade treaty. Accordingly, oil was exported from the Soviet Union to Germany. This led the British and French to consider attacking the Soviet oil fields at Baku. Such considerations suggest that decision-makers in Britain and France did not realize the magnitude of the Soviet military capacity.128

    Zetterling’s footnote, incidentally, references a German book published in 1975.

    The plan is not some hidden from us and is in fact ordinary knowledge among WW2 historians and buffs.

    • Replies: @iffen
    @Thorfinnsson

    What I can't figure out is why he pushes such nonsense.

    It's not like he has to convince "us" that one can't blindly trust the MSM.

    , @Ron Unz
    @Thorfinnsson


    In reality this plan is routinely discussed in WW2 histories. I just read two WW2 books, and both bring up the plan. The first is Richard Overy’s The Bombing War, and the second is Niklas Zetterling’s Blitzkrieg: From the Ground Up.
     
    You're entirely correct that the 700 page Overy book published in 2013 devotes most of one paragraph to the planned Allied attack on the Soviets in early 1940, and the 2017 Zetterling gives a full 78 words to the same topic, while referencing a 1975 book published in German. David Irving also briefly mentioned it in one of his Churchill books, and I'm sure there are other exceptions as well.

    When the issue came up a year or two ago, and several people tried to locate references via Google, those book didn't come up, presumably because they were so scanty. I suspect unless you'd actually read the book, you wouldn't have noticed them.

    Operation Pike, an extremely detailed 250 page monograph on the subject, was published in a very respectable military history series in 2000, at which point concealing the facts obviously became increasingly difficult. But even so, Chris Bellamy's 800 page Absolute War, regarded as a very authoritative account of Soviet Russia in WWII, was published in 2007 and contains not a single mention of those facts, and the Bellamy book seems very typical in this regard. The 2015 article published in the National Interest shocked its readers and brought the facts to a more general audience, putting further pressure on historians.

    Still, I think it's undeniable that an Allied attack on the USSR in early 1940 would have represented the entire turning point of the war, and it appears that such an attack was about to take place before Hitler successfully attacked France. Unless I'm mistaken, the planned strategic bombing campaign against the Soviets would have been the largest in world history to that date, and Overy would have looked very foolish if he had totally excluded it from his history of WWII bombing. So he gave it most of one paragraph.

    My guess would be the a large majority of WWII historians have been aware of the facts all along, but were very reluctant to ever mention them, for obvious political reasons. Indeed, McMeekin told me that he was hit very hard in the British press for his substantial discussion of Operation Pike and related matters. I wouldn't be surprised if the few pages he devoted to the topic were greater than the combined total words of all the other thousands of English-language WWII books published over the previous couple of generations.

    It's obviously a matter of personal opinion whether that constitutes a "cover up" of the likely turning point of WWII.

    As an exercise, I wonder if you could locate for me the longest coverage of Operation Pike in any mainstream English-language history book published until the last few years. Overy gave it most of one paragraph, so perhaps you can find an author who allocated a single full page, which would match the casual discussion in the 1952 memoirs of Sisley Huddleston, which is where I first discovered it.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @utu

  128. @Thorfinnsson
    @Ron Unz

    I see your obsession with one of the many Phony War / Sitzkrieg fanciful allied plans continues, and that you seem to think this is some kind of gnostic knowledge. Other allied schemes from this period involved landing troops in Northern Scandinavia, on the pretext of assisting the Finns, to stop Swedish exports of iron ore to Germany.

    In reality this plan is routinely discussed in WW2 histories. I just read two WW2 books, and both bring up the plan. The first is Richard Overy's The Bombing War, and the second is Niklas Zetterling's Blitzkrieg: From the Ground Up.

    Here's the text from Overy's book:


    Some sense of how difficult raiding was to be against targets quite remote from the aerial battlefield in western Europe had already become evident when in 1940, and again in 1941, the RAF undertook preparations to bomb the Soviet oilfields in the Caucasus region in order to deny Germany and Italy vital supplies of fuel. The plans in 1940 were prompted first by the French High Command, which wanted to strike at Soviet oil not only to undermine the trade with the Axis states but also to create a possible political crisis for the Soviet Union among the Moslem peoples of southern Russia. French military leaders were much happier about bombing the Soviet Union than bombing Germany.170 The British side agreed with the plan and drew up a detailed study in April 1940 for deploying 48 Blenheim light bombers from bases in Syria and Iraq, supported by 65 Glenn Martin bombers bought by the French from American production. RAF planners thought little of Soviet air and anti-aircraft defences, and like the French, hoped that a three-month attack on Batum, Baku and Grozny might lead sooner or later ‘to the complete collapse of the war potential of the USSR’, as well as disastrous repercussions for Germany.171 Chamberlain’s Cabinet thought the campaign too risky, and following the German attack on France on 10 May, the French abandoned the idea. But the RAF remained in a state of readiness to eliminate the entire Soviet oil industry in three months, assuming an average margin of error of 75 yards, a conclusion entirely at odds with all the bombing trials conducted in 1939 and 1940.172 The plan was revived again in June 1941 in the knowledge that Germany was about to attack the Soviet Union. There were strong recommendations from the British Embassy in Cairo and the chiefs of staff to use two squadrons of Wellington bombers and two of Blenheims for a month of intensive attacks, not only to deny the oil to the Germans but ‘to remind the Soviet of consequences of acceding to German demands’.173 Planning was completed by August 1941, but once again operational and strategic reality prevented a campaign in which the means were manifestly inadequate for the military and political ends desired.
     
    And here's the text from Zetterling's book:


    The Germans were far from alone in underestimating the Soviet military capacity. When Germany and the Soviet Union had signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact in August 1939, they had also agreed on a trade treaty. Accordingly, oil was exported from the Soviet Union to Germany. This led the British and French to consider attacking the Soviet oil fields at Baku. Such considerations suggest that decision-makers in Britain and France did not realize the magnitude of the Soviet military capacity.128
     
    Zetterling's footnote, incidentally, references a German book published in 1975.

    The plan is not some hidden from us and is in fact ordinary knowledge among WW2 historians and buffs.

    Replies: @iffen, @Ron Unz

    What I can’t figure out is why he pushes such nonsense.

    It’s not like he has to convince “us” that one can’t blindly trust the MSM.

  129. Priti Patel slams England footballers for taking the knee to campaign against racism saying it is ‘gesture politics’ – and refuses to condemn fans who booed the players at Wembley.
    Home Secretary refused to criticise fans at Euro 2020 game who booed players
    She told the new GB News channel that it was ‘choice for them’ to attack team
    Added: I just don’t support people participating in …gesture politics’

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9684497/Priti-Patel-accuses-England-footballers-gesture-politics-taking-knee.html

    See, what the solution is – import more brown people from Indian subcontinent, so they won’t be afraid being called racists after speaking out, lol 🙂

    Anyway, any bets on who and when will become the first UK PM from former Indian colony – Priti, Rishi or Sajid?

    • Replies: @sudden death
    @sudden death

    haha, "white" reaction was quick:


    'He wants to see fans cheering and not booing': Boris Johnson slaps down Priti Patel after she accuses England footballers of 'gesture politics' for taking the knee and refuses to condemn fans who jeered players at Wembley
     
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9684497/Priti-Patel-accuses-England-footballers-gesture-politics-taking-knee.html

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  130. @Thorfinnsson
    @Ron Unz

    I see your obsession with one of the many Phony War / Sitzkrieg fanciful allied plans continues, and that you seem to think this is some kind of gnostic knowledge. Other allied schemes from this period involved landing troops in Northern Scandinavia, on the pretext of assisting the Finns, to stop Swedish exports of iron ore to Germany.

    In reality this plan is routinely discussed in WW2 histories. I just read two WW2 books, and both bring up the plan. The first is Richard Overy's The Bombing War, and the second is Niklas Zetterling's Blitzkrieg: From the Ground Up.

    Here's the text from Overy's book:


    Some sense of how difficult raiding was to be against targets quite remote from the aerial battlefield in western Europe had already become evident when in 1940, and again in 1941, the RAF undertook preparations to bomb the Soviet oilfields in the Caucasus region in order to deny Germany and Italy vital supplies of fuel. The plans in 1940 were prompted first by the French High Command, which wanted to strike at Soviet oil not only to undermine the trade with the Axis states but also to create a possible political crisis for the Soviet Union among the Moslem peoples of southern Russia. French military leaders were much happier about bombing the Soviet Union than bombing Germany.170 The British side agreed with the plan and drew up a detailed study in April 1940 for deploying 48 Blenheim light bombers from bases in Syria and Iraq, supported by 65 Glenn Martin bombers bought by the French from American production. RAF planners thought little of Soviet air and anti-aircraft defences, and like the French, hoped that a three-month attack on Batum, Baku and Grozny might lead sooner or later ‘to the complete collapse of the war potential of the USSR’, as well as disastrous repercussions for Germany.171 Chamberlain’s Cabinet thought the campaign too risky, and following the German attack on France on 10 May, the French abandoned the idea. But the RAF remained in a state of readiness to eliminate the entire Soviet oil industry in three months, assuming an average margin of error of 75 yards, a conclusion entirely at odds with all the bombing trials conducted in 1939 and 1940.172 The plan was revived again in June 1941 in the knowledge that Germany was about to attack the Soviet Union. There were strong recommendations from the British Embassy in Cairo and the chiefs of staff to use two squadrons of Wellington bombers and two of Blenheims for a month of intensive attacks, not only to deny the oil to the Germans but ‘to remind the Soviet of consequences of acceding to German demands’.173 Planning was completed by August 1941, but once again operational and strategic reality prevented a campaign in which the means were manifestly inadequate for the military and political ends desired.
     
    And here's the text from Zetterling's book:


    The Germans were far from alone in underestimating the Soviet military capacity. When Germany and the Soviet Union had signed the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact in August 1939, they had also agreed on a trade treaty. Accordingly, oil was exported from the Soviet Union to Germany. This led the British and French to consider attacking the Soviet oil fields at Baku. Such considerations suggest that decision-makers in Britain and France did not realize the magnitude of the Soviet military capacity.128
     
    Zetterling's footnote, incidentally, references a German book published in 1975.

    The plan is not some hidden from us and is in fact ordinary knowledge among WW2 historians and buffs.

    Replies: @iffen, @Ron Unz

    In reality this plan is routinely discussed in WW2 histories. I just read two WW2 books, and both bring up the plan. The first is Richard Overy’s The Bombing War, and the second is Niklas Zetterling’s Blitzkrieg: From the Ground Up.

    You’re entirely correct that the 700 page Overy book published in 2013 devotes most of one paragraph to the planned Allied attack on the Soviets in early 1940, and the 2017 Zetterling gives a full 78 words to the same topic, while referencing a 1975 book published in German. David Irving also briefly mentioned it in one of his Churchill books, and I’m sure there are other exceptions as well.

    When the issue came up a year or two ago, and several people tried to locate references via Google, those book didn’t come up, presumably because they were so scanty. I suspect unless you’d actually read the book, you wouldn’t have noticed them.

    Operation Pike, an extremely detailed 250 page monograph on the subject, was published in a very respectable military history series in 2000, at which point concealing the facts obviously became increasingly difficult. But even so, Chris Bellamy’s 800 page Absolute War, regarded as a very authoritative account of Soviet Russia in WWII, was published in 2007 and contains not a single mention of those facts, and the Bellamy book seems very typical in this regard. The 2015 article published in the National Interest shocked its readers and brought the facts to a more general audience, putting further pressure on historians.

    Still, I think it’s undeniable that an Allied attack on the USSR in early 1940 would have represented the entire turning point of the war, and it appears that such an attack was about to take place before Hitler successfully attacked France. Unless I’m mistaken, the planned strategic bombing campaign against the Soviets would have been the largest in world history to that date, and Overy would have looked very foolish if he had totally excluded it from his history of WWII bombing. So he gave it most of one paragraph.

    My guess would be the a large majority of WWII historians have been aware of the facts all along, but were very reluctant to ever mention them, for obvious political reasons. Indeed, McMeekin told me that he was hit very hard in the British press for his substantial discussion of Operation Pike and related matters. I wouldn’t be surprised if the few pages he devoted to the topic were greater than the combined total words of all the other thousands of English-language WWII books published over the previous couple of generations.

    It’s obviously a matter of personal opinion whether that constitutes a “cover up” of the likely turning point of WWII.

    As an exercise, I wonder if you could locate for me the longest coverage of Operation Pike in any mainstream English-language history book published until the last few years. Overy gave it most of one paragraph, so perhaps you can find an author who allocated a single full page, which would match the casual discussion in the 1952 memoirs of Sisley Huddleston, which is where I first discovered it.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @Ron Unz

    Operation Pike did not actually take place, which is why you do not find it extensively written about. Is this mysterious to you? Perhaps you find it very interesting that historians are deeply reluctant to write at length about Operation Felix, the proposed Axis assault on Gibraltar which never took place.

    The plan went through numerous conceptions as most military plans do, but it would have been one of the larger strategic bombing efforts in world history to date by virtue of the fact that prior to the German Blitz most strategic bombing efforts to date had been quite puny.

    The plan would have failed completely in its objectives given the state of technology at the time and the small forces involved. As you rightly point out it could have carried catastrophic political consequences as well.

    There is no turning point stemming from Operation Pike because nothing happened. I'm not really sure why you think historians refusing to devote themselves to events that never took place constitutes evidence of a coverup.

    The reason I provided the excerpts I did is that those two books are quite literally the last two books I read. I've been reading WW2 literature for over two decades, and while Operation Pike certainly is not mentioned in every book it's not something that's intentionally hidden.

    Overy could I suppose be accused of concealing British plans to wage war against Germany's food supply with anthrax, because Operation Vegetarian is not discussed in his book. But once again, this is something that never took place (and Overy does mention other British plans to use chemical and biological weapons).

    Replies: @Ron Unz, @iffen

    , @utu
    @Ron Unz

    "concealing the facts", “cover up” - The only reason for not dwelling on the Operation Pike too much was to conceal the fact from the general public that the USSR was an ally of Nazi Germany for the first 21 months of WWII during which time it attacked Poland, Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Rumania and supplied Nazi Germany with strategic raw materials. During that time communist organizations on orders from Moscow all over the world were to not engage in anti Nazi propaganda or activities. Communist organizations in occupied France were denouncing anti-German activities of pro-London French Resistance to Gestapo. Communists in the US actively supported America First Committee and the isolationist position. And when June 22, 1941 happened the order from Moscow was reversed 180° and whitewashing of what people did and said before began. This was a true Orwellian moment of WWII.

    Example: Almanac Singers with Pete Seeger pulled their May 1941 anti-war album from distribution and those who had already purchased copies were asked to return them. Pete Seeger "Washington Breakdown" vanished form memory


    Franklin D., listen to me
    You ain't gonna send me 'cross the sea
    'Cross the sea, 'cross the sea
    You ain't gonna send me 'cross the sea
     
    Pete Seeger continued to sing about unions and then recorded another song to Franklin D this time titled "Dear Mr. President":

    Now, Mr. President,
    We haven't always agreed in the past, I know,
    But that ain't at all important now.
    What is important is what we got to do,
    We got to lick Mr. Hitler, and until we do,
    Other things can wait.
     
    Concealing Operation Pike was easy because it was just a plan that was never implemented. However it was known (your unawareness of it till recently is surprising) but not really discussed in terms of what the world would looked like if it was implemented or were French and British really serious. Was it just a plan devised on military command level while the higher up politicians knew from the very beginning that eventually the honeymoon of Hitler and Stalin would be over?

    https://i.ibb.co/GcStBXM/Stalin-Htl.png

    Roosevelt was counting on Russo-German war and having Russia as an ally against Hitler. In November 1938 Ambassador William Bullit, Jr. said:


    As the Soviet Union’s potential strength is not yet known, it might happen that Germany would have moved too far away from its base, and would be condemned to wage a long and weakening war. Only then would the democratic countries attack Germany, Bullitt declared, and force her to capitulate.
     

    Replies: @Ron Unz

  131. @sudden death

    Priti Patel slams England footballers for taking the knee to campaign against racism saying it is 'gesture politics' - and refuses to condemn fans who booed the players at Wembley.
    Home Secretary refused to criticise fans at Euro 2020 game who booed players
    She told the new GB News channel that it was 'choice for them' to attack team
    Added: I just don't support people participating in ...gesture politics'
     
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9684497/Priti-Patel-accuses-England-footballers-gesture-politics-taking-knee.html

    See, what the solution is - import more brown people from Indian subcontinent, so they won't be afraid being called racists after speaking out, lol :)

    Anyway, any bets on who and when will become the first UK PM from former Indian colony - Priti, Rishi or Sajid?

    Replies: @sudden death

    haha, “white” reaction was quick:

    ‘He wants to see fans cheering and not booing’: Boris Johnson slaps down Priti Patel after she accuses England footballers of ‘gesture politics’ for taking the knee and refuses to condemn fans who jeered players at Wembley

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9684497/Priti-Patel-accuses-England-footballers-gesture-politics-taking-knee.html

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @sudden death

    Such a cuck. This guy is still a prime minister, and the lampposts are empty?

  132. @Ron Unz
    @Thorfinnsson


    In reality this plan is routinely discussed in WW2 histories. I just read two WW2 books, and both bring up the plan. The first is Richard Overy’s The Bombing War, and the second is Niklas Zetterling’s Blitzkrieg: From the Ground Up.
     
    You're entirely correct that the 700 page Overy book published in 2013 devotes most of one paragraph to the planned Allied attack on the Soviets in early 1940, and the 2017 Zetterling gives a full 78 words to the same topic, while referencing a 1975 book published in German. David Irving also briefly mentioned it in one of his Churchill books, and I'm sure there are other exceptions as well.

    When the issue came up a year or two ago, and several people tried to locate references via Google, those book didn't come up, presumably because they were so scanty. I suspect unless you'd actually read the book, you wouldn't have noticed them.

    Operation Pike, an extremely detailed 250 page monograph on the subject, was published in a very respectable military history series in 2000, at which point concealing the facts obviously became increasingly difficult. But even so, Chris Bellamy's 800 page Absolute War, regarded as a very authoritative account of Soviet Russia in WWII, was published in 2007 and contains not a single mention of those facts, and the Bellamy book seems very typical in this regard. The 2015 article published in the National Interest shocked its readers and brought the facts to a more general audience, putting further pressure on historians.

    Still, I think it's undeniable that an Allied attack on the USSR in early 1940 would have represented the entire turning point of the war, and it appears that such an attack was about to take place before Hitler successfully attacked France. Unless I'm mistaken, the planned strategic bombing campaign against the Soviets would have been the largest in world history to that date, and Overy would have looked very foolish if he had totally excluded it from his history of WWII bombing. So he gave it most of one paragraph.

    My guess would be the a large majority of WWII historians have been aware of the facts all along, but were very reluctant to ever mention them, for obvious political reasons. Indeed, McMeekin told me that he was hit very hard in the British press for his substantial discussion of Operation Pike and related matters. I wouldn't be surprised if the few pages he devoted to the topic were greater than the combined total words of all the other thousands of English-language WWII books published over the previous couple of generations.

    It's obviously a matter of personal opinion whether that constitutes a "cover up" of the likely turning point of WWII.

    As an exercise, I wonder if you could locate for me the longest coverage of Operation Pike in any mainstream English-language history book published until the last few years. Overy gave it most of one paragraph, so perhaps you can find an author who allocated a single full page, which would match the casual discussion in the 1952 memoirs of Sisley Huddleston, which is where I first discovered it.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @utu

    Operation Pike did not actually take place, which is why you do not find it extensively written about. Is this mysterious to you? Perhaps you find it very interesting that historians are deeply reluctant to write at length about Operation Felix, the proposed Axis assault on Gibraltar which never took place.

    The plan went through numerous conceptions as most military plans do, but it would have been one of the larger strategic bombing efforts in world history to date by virtue of the fact that prior to the German Blitz most strategic bombing efforts to date had been quite puny.

    The plan would have failed completely in its objectives given the state of technology at the time and the small forces involved. As you rightly point out it could have carried catastrophic political consequences as well.

    There is no turning point stemming from Operation Pike because nothing happened. I’m not really sure why you think historians refusing to devote themselves to events that never took place constitutes evidence of a coverup.

    The reason I provided the excerpts I did is that those two books are quite literally the last two books I read. I’ve been reading WW2 literature for over two decades, and while Operation Pike certainly is not mentioned in every book it’s not something that’s intentionally hidden.

    Overy could I suppose be accused of concealing British plans to wage war against Germany’s food supply with anthrax, because Operation Vegetarian is not discussed in his book. But once again, this is something that never took place (and Overy does mention other British plans to use chemical and biological weapons).

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    @Thorfinnsson


    Operation Pike did not actually take place, which is why you do not find it extensively written about. Is this mysterious to you? Perhaps you find it very interesting that historians are deeply reluctant to write at length about Operation Felix, the proposed Axis assault on Gibraltar which never took place....There is no turning point stemming from Operation Pike because nothing happened. I’m not really sure why you think historians refusing to devote themselves to events that never took place constitutes evidence of a coverup.
     
    You're making yourself look foolish by denying the obvious. Germany and the Allies were at war, and Gibraltar was an obvious strategic target. A German assault might have been successful or not, and might have been cost-effective or not, but that's an entirely different scenario than an Allied attack on the USSR in early 1940.

    You say the silence is explained by the fact that it never happened. Okay. Yet oddly enough, all the history books provide substantial mention of the German plans for a possible invasion of Britain in 1940, which also never happened. Attacking the USSR and bringing it into the war would have been far more momentous.

    And the planned attack wasn't merely one of those endless military "hypotheticals." Unmarked Allied planes were already illegally overflying Soviet airspace to select initial bombing targets. Detailed negotiations were taking place with the Turks and the Iranians to enlist them in the attack on the USSR. Target dates for the attack had been set on several occasions and then postponed. It appears that the main reason the attack never took place was the German conquest of France. The Germans then seized and published all the secret French documents so that every well-informed observer soon became aware of the plans.

    And it sounds like you admit that the strategic Allied bombing offense would have been the largest in world history, intended to entirely destroy the Soviet oil industry, thereby perhaps causing a famine that would overthrow Stalin's regime.

    Consider something that is always mentioned in almost every WWII history book. The following year, the British government repeatedly attempted to warn Stalin that Hitler was planning to attack, but Stalin disregarded those warnings, and the books tend to explain this as due to Stalin's "paranoia." But Stalin knew perfectly well that less than a year earlier the British had been planning an all-out attack against the USSR, and surely that was a contributing factor. Yet not a single history book ever mentions this obvious and important fact, and I doubt whether even 0.1% of the readers are aware of it. You argue that's not a cover-up, so I guess you believe that the books lacked space for an additional sentence or two of explanation.

    Here's another example. It seems pretty solidly established that the Allies tried and failed to assassinate Charles de Gaulle and the Americans decided to assassinate Chiang Kai-shek, but later changed their minds. Your theory is that these incidents were excluded from all the history books because they never happened. Okay, but it seems pretty likely that Sikorski, the leader of the Polish government in exile, was assassinated in exactly that same way, and the reality of that particular incident has also been excluded from all the history books.

    It's hardly the most surprising thing in the world for a nation's historians to cover up very embarrassing aspects of their major wars. And to completely deny that reality makes someone look rather ridiculous.

    Replies: @JohnnyWalker123, @Thorfinnsson, @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    , @iffen
    @Thorfinnsson

    I'm sure that you feel silly after reading the responding comment.

  133. Does this mean that Ukraine will give up its claims on territories lost to Russia in 2014?

    No country with territorial disputes can be a NATO member if I remember correctly, unless Zelensky means becoming a NATO partner which is a whole other thing.

    • Replies: @DNS
    @DNS

    https://twitter.com/JonLemire/status/1404520361849413642

    , @AltanBakshi
    @DNS

    You remember correctly, there's an article like that in NATO's rules, but it's BS, because both Estonia and Latvia had territorial disputes with Russia in 2003, but it was no obstacle for joining NATO.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon

    , @Blinky Bill
    @DNS

    https://twitter.com/TheDeadDistrict/status/1405513781426405376?s=20

  134. @DNS
    Does this mean that Ukraine will give up its claims on territories lost to Russia in 2014?

    https://twitter.com/ZelenskyyUa/status/1404512788966514689

    No country with territorial disputes can be a NATO member if I remember correctly, unless Zelensky means becoming a NATO partner which is a whole other thing.

    Replies: @DNS, @AltanBakshi, @Blinky Bill

  135. Soviet WW II Intent

    Major powers of past and present have all sorts of hypothetical military planning which may or may not be likely to happen.

    Stalin entered Molotov-Ribbentrop knowing full well that a future Nazi-Soviet war was still possible at some point.

    He entered that arrangement after the West rebuffed his offer for an anti-Nazi alliance. Upon the Nazi attack on the USSR, the Soviets were sending aid to Germany. Stalin grossly miscalculated, ignoring his own Intel and that of the West.

    Stalin was cautious to engage in conflict with Germany at that point in time – 1939 early 1940s. He probably considered what happened in WW I, when Russia early in that war struck into Germany at a time when Russia wasn’t so militarily well prepared.

    Consider the difficulties the Soviets had in Finland and the purges of the 1930s, which included the Red Army officer corps.

    • Agree: AltanBakshi
  136. @Yellowface Anon
    @Blinky Bill

    I haven't, but (this is a viewpoint floating in the emigrant-pitching part of HK web) who won't want a millions-strong pool of hard-working and usually intelligent immigrants?

    Let's see how it turned out for every country welcoming the Jews. (but at least HKers aren't hostile to their new hosts)

    Replies: @notanon

    who won’t want a millions-strong pool of hard-working and usually intelligent immigrants?

    familial nepotism is why those countries are poor

    (and being hard-working and intelligent makes it worse)

  137. @AltanBakshi
    @Ron Unz

    To me it would be most odd if someone as cautious as Stalin would have contemplated attack against the West after the fiasco of Winter War and Purges of Red Army's officer corps. Stalin was not a gambler like Hitler. Even his rise to power was through careful attention to details and planning, he was too wary and risk averse to really contemplate such shenanigans as grand surpise attack to the west. Or why else he did so many purges? Because he was not as sure about his position as Hitler, and had not as much trust in his state's institutions.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @notanon

    To me it would be most odd if someone as cautious as Stalin would have contemplated attack against the West after the fiasco of Winter War and Purges of Red Army’s officer corps.

    i don’t have a view on the broader question but the Bolsheviks did invade Poland in the 1920s and we know Stalin wanted to invade Poland and Finland because he did

    so at a minimum i could see him thinking on how to get Poland *without* war with the west.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @notanon

    Hey it was the Poles who attacked Soviet Russia. Soviet invasion of Poland in 1920 was a result of Polish aggression, just like Soviet invasion of Germany in 1945 was a result of German aggression.

    Replies: @notanon, @Mikhail

    , @Mikhail
    @notanon


    i don’t have a view on the broader question but the Bolsheviks did invade Poland in the 1920s and we know Stalin wanted to invade Poland and Finland because he did

    so at a minimum i could see him thinking on how to get Poland *without* war with the west.
     
    Stalin's war with Finland cam after he offered the Finns a strategic land swap before choosing the war option. At the time, Stalin likely figured Finland to be a Nazi ally in a war against the USSR.

    As a result of Molotov-Ribbentrop, the Nazis took Poland which had been part of the Russian Empire. This facet shows that the USSR regarded itself as not being so strong against Nazi Germany.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  138. @notanon
    @AltanBakshi


    To me it would be most odd if someone as cautious as Stalin would have contemplated attack against the West after the fiasco of Winter War and Purges of Red Army’s officer corps.
     
    i don't have a view on the broader question but the Bolsheviks did invade Poland in the 1920s and we know Stalin wanted to invade Poland and Finland because he did

    so at a minimum i could see him thinking on how to get Poland *without* war with the west.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Mikhail

    Hey it was the Poles who attacked Soviet Russia. Soviet invasion of Poland in 1920 was a result of Polish aggression, just like Soviet invasion of Germany in 1945 was a result of German aggression.

    • Replies: @notanon
    @AltanBakshi

    1939

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    , @Mikhail
    @AltanBakshi

    The overall knowledge on that conflict is typically limited.

    https://www.eurasiareview.com/08042016-fuzzy-history-how-poland-saved-the-world-from-russia-analysis/

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  139. @Thorfinnsson
    @Ron Unz

    Operation Pike did not actually take place, which is why you do not find it extensively written about. Is this mysterious to you? Perhaps you find it very interesting that historians are deeply reluctant to write at length about Operation Felix, the proposed Axis assault on Gibraltar which never took place.

    The plan went through numerous conceptions as most military plans do, but it would have been one of the larger strategic bombing efforts in world history to date by virtue of the fact that prior to the German Blitz most strategic bombing efforts to date had been quite puny.

    The plan would have failed completely in its objectives given the state of technology at the time and the small forces involved. As you rightly point out it could have carried catastrophic political consequences as well.

    There is no turning point stemming from Operation Pike because nothing happened. I'm not really sure why you think historians refusing to devote themselves to events that never took place constitutes evidence of a coverup.

    The reason I provided the excerpts I did is that those two books are quite literally the last two books I read. I've been reading WW2 literature for over two decades, and while Operation Pike certainly is not mentioned in every book it's not something that's intentionally hidden.

    Overy could I suppose be accused of concealing British plans to wage war against Germany's food supply with anthrax, because Operation Vegetarian is not discussed in his book. But once again, this is something that never took place (and Overy does mention other British plans to use chemical and biological weapons).

    Replies: @Ron Unz, @iffen

    Operation Pike did not actually take place, which is why you do not find it extensively written about. Is this mysterious to you? Perhaps you find it very interesting that historians are deeply reluctant to write at length about Operation Felix, the proposed Axis assault on Gibraltar which never took place….There is no turning point stemming from Operation Pike because nothing happened. I’m not really sure why you think historians refusing to devote themselves to events that never took place constitutes evidence of a coverup.

    You’re making yourself look foolish by denying the obvious. Germany and the Allies were at war, and Gibraltar was an obvious strategic target. A German assault might have been successful or not, and might have been cost-effective or not, but that’s an entirely different scenario than an Allied attack on the USSR in early 1940.

    You say the silence is explained by the fact that it never happened. Okay. Yet oddly enough, all the history books provide substantial mention of the German plans for a possible invasion of Britain in 1940, which also never happened. Attacking the USSR and bringing it into the war would have been far more momentous.

    And the planned attack wasn’t merely one of those endless military “hypotheticals.” Unmarked Allied planes were already illegally overflying Soviet airspace to select initial bombing targets. Detailed negotiations were taking place with the Turks and the Iranians to enlist them in the attack on the USSR. Target dates for the attack had been set on several occasions and then postponed. It appears that the main reason the attack never took place was the German conquest of France. The Germans then seized and published all the secret French documents so that every well-informed observer soon became aware of the plans.

    And it sounds like you admit that the strategic Allied bombing offense would have been the largest in world history, intended to entirely destroy the Soviet oil industry, thereby perhaps causing a famine that would overthrow Stalin’s regime.

    Consider something that is always mentioned in almost every WWII history book. The following year, the British government repeatedly attempted to warn Stalin that Hitler was planning to attack, but Stalin disregarded those warnings, and the books tend to explain this as due to Stalin’s “paranoia.” But Stalin knew perfectly well that less than a year earlier the British had been planning an all-out attack against the USSR, and surely that was a contributing factor. Yet not a single history book ever mentions this obvious and important fact, and I doubt whether even 0.1% of the readers are aware of it. You argue that’s not a cover-up, so I guess you believe that the books lacked space for an additional sentence or two of explanation.

    Here’s another example. It seems pretty solidly established that the Allies tried and failed to assassinate Charles de Gaulle and the Americans decided to assassinate Chiang Kai-shek, but later changed their minds. Your theory is that these incidents were excluded from all the history books because they never happened. Okay, but it seems pretty likely that Sikorski, the leader of the Polish government in exile, was assassinated in exactly that same way, and the reality of that particular incident has also been excluded from all the history books.

    It’s hardly the most surprising thing in the world for a nation’s historians to cover up very embarrassing aspects of their major wars. And to completely deny that reality makes someone look rather ridiculous.

    • Agree: Vishnugupta
    • Replies: @JohnnyWalker123
    @Ron Unz

    What's your opinion of this?

    https://twitter.com/disclosetv/status/1404518201300598788

    Thanks.

    , @Thorfinnsson
    @Ron Unz

    You’re making yourself look foolish by denying the obvious. Germany and the Allies were at war, and Gibraltar was an obvious strategic target. A German assault might have been successful or not, and might have been cost-effective or not, but that’s an entirely different scenario than an Allied attack on the USSR in early 1940.
     

    Why is it an entirely different scenario?

    Germany was dependent on imports of oil, many of which came from the Soviet Union.

    Likewise, Germany was dependent on imports of Swedish iron ore which is why the allies also drew up plans to intervene in Scandinavia (never mentioned by you).

    The allies had defeated Germany in WW1 through economic strangulation, so these strategic targets were obvious enough to allied planners.

    You say the silence is explained by the fact that it never happened. Okay. Yet oddly enough, all the history books provide substantial mention of the German plans for a possible invasion of Britain in 1940, which also never happened. Attacking the USSR and bringing it into the war would have been far more momentous.
     

    Well, this is a reasonable point, but I would state the discrepancy is explained by the following:

    • Germany and Britain were at war
    • Britain had been driven from the Continent
    • There was an actual Battle of Britain intended as a prelude to invasion

    And the planned attack wasn’t merely one of those endless military “hypotheticals.” Unmarked Allied planes were already illegally overflying Soviet airspace to select initial bombing targets. Detailed negotiations were taking place with the Turks and the Iranians to enlist them in the attack on the USSR. Target dates for the attack had been set on several occasions and then postponed. It appears that the main reason the attack never took place was the German conquest of France. The Germans then seized and published all the secret French documents so that every well-informed observer soon became aware of the plans.
     

    Yes, it's quite ordinary to engage in detailed planning and reconnaissance in advance of projected military operations.

    German planes were also illegally overflying Soviet airspace prior to 1941, and for that matter Soviet aircraft were illegally overflying German airspace. In an era at which radar technology was in its infancy, illegal overflights were routine. And of course illegal overflights continued for many years after the war as demonstrated by the CIA's illegal U-2 overflights of the USSR.

    Neutrals were throughout both World Wars endlessly beseeched by the belligerents to try to enlist them in the war. The cajoling of Turkey and Iran is therefore nothing unusual, and Britain (and Germany) would continue trying to seduce Turkey through the entire war. Iran for its part ended up suffering a joint Anglo-Soviet invasion.

    And it sounds like you admit that the strategic Allied bombing offense would have been the largest in world history, intended to entirely destroy the Soviet oil industry, thereby perhaps causing a famine that would overthrow Stalin’s regime.
     

    A hypothetical allied bombing of the Soviet oil industry would have been the largest in world history to that time in the same way that the Ford Model T was the fastest production sedan in world history at the time of its introduction.

    If you understand the analogy, it's a true but irrelevant or misleading statement because the absolute power of the "world's largest strategic bombing offensive" in mid-1940 is trivial. It wouldn't be until 1943 that RAF Bomber Command evolved into a terrifying instrument of urban mass destruction as demonstrated by the Battle of the Ruhr and Operation Gomorrah (the firebombing of Hamburg).

    An allied attempt in 1940 to bomb the Soviet Union would have done very little damage indeed, and probably many of the planes would be unable to reach their targets. Indeed this was the experience of the RAF in its efforts to bomb Germany in '40-41. While the Soviet oil industry would be undamaged, such an attack could potentially have motivated the USSR to join the Axis.

    Consider something that is always mentioned in almost every WWII history book. The following year, the British government repeatedly attempted to warn Stalin that Hitler was planning to attack, but Stalin disregarded those warnings, and the books tend to explain this as due to Stalin’s “paranoia.” But Stalin knew perfectly well that less than a year earlier the British had been planning an all-out attack against the USSR, and surely that was a contributing factor. Yet not a single history book ever mentions this obvious and important fact, and I doubt whether even 0.1% of the readers are aware of it. You argue that’s not a cover-up, so I guess you believe that the books lacked space for an additional sentence or two of explanation.
     

    Actually it's a fairly standard explanation that Stalin did not trust the British, though to your credit I've never once seen this tied to Operation Pike. It should be pointed out that Stalin also had ample reasons for distrusting the British beyond Operation Pike.

    Your last point is a strawman. My basic contention here is that most WW2 historians and buffs do not find Operation Pike to be as interesting or significant as you do, and that explains the lack of coverage.

    Here’s another example. It seems pretty solidly established that the Allies tried and failed to assassinate Charles de Gaulle and the Americans decided to assassinate Chiang Kai-shek, but later changed their minds. Your theory is that these incidents were excluded from all the history books because they never happened. Okay, but it seems pretty likely that Sikorski, the leader of the Polish government in exile, was assassinated in exactly that same way, and the reality of that particular incident has also been excluded from all the history books.
     

    Frustration with de Gaulle and "Cash-my-Check" is a common staple of period histories which focus on these regions and/or personalities. The successful murder of Admiral Darlan is another WW2 assassination conspiracy.

    You're on firmer ground with the murder of Sikorski, where there probably is a coverup. Means, motive, and opportunity all point to this.

    It’s hardly the most surprising thing in the world for a nation’s historians to cover up very embarrassing aspects of their major wars. And to completely deny that reality makes someone look rather ridiculous.
     

    I have no disagreement with this as a general point, but in my view it doesn't apply to Operation Pike. Operation Pike is embarrassing, but not in the way you imply. It's embarrassing because it was a foolish scheme doomed to failure, and doubly so because it was indicative of Anglo-French unwillingness to directly attack Germany.

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa, @Ron Unz

    , @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @Ron Unz


    Americans decided to assassinate Chiang Kai-shek, but later changed their minds
     
    This is new to me that I have to look into. That said, from 1943-45, Chiang considered on occasion of cutting a separate deal* with the Japanese.

    *Of course Germans also tried to mediate in 1937/8 between Chiang and Japan, but that was kiboshed for various reasons.

    Replies: @Ron Unz

  140. @DNS
    Does this mean that Ukraine will give up its claims on territories lost to Russia in 2014?

    https://twitter.com/ZelenskyyUa/status/1404512788966514689

    No country with territorial disputes can be a NATO member if I remember correctly, unless Zelensky means becoming a NATO partner which is a whole other thing.

    Replies: @DNS, @AltanBakshi, @Blinky Bill

    You remember correctly, there’s an article like that in NATO’s rules, but it’s BS, because both Estonia and Latvia had territorial disputes with Russia in 2003, but it was no obstacle for joining NATO.

    • Replies: @Yellowface Anon
    @AltanBakshi

    I'm not sure, but it is probably based on de jure (i.e. what the US says to be) borders?

    (But [South] Cyprus, only controlling 2/3 of its de jure territory, isn't in NATO. Turkey is in NATO since it is actually Northern Cyprus' business, but Ankara has some minor territorial and EEZ disputes with Greece as well that stem from the aftermath of Greco-Turkish War)

  141. @notanon
    @AltanBakshi


    To me it would be most odd if someone as cautious as Stalin would have contemplated attack against the West after the fiasco of Winter War and Purges of Red Army’s officer corps.
     
    i don't have a view on the broader question but the Bolsheviks did invade Poland in the 1920s and we know Stalin wanted to invade Poland and Finland because he did

    so at a minimum i could see him thinking on how to get Poland *without* war with the west.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Mikhail

    i don’t have a view on the broader question but the Bolsheviks did invade Poland in the 1920s and we know Stalin wanted to invade Poland and Finland because he did

    so at a minimum i could see him thinking on how to get Poland *without* war with the west.

    Stalin’s war with Finland cam after he offered the Finns a strategic land swap before choosing the war option. At the time, Stalin likely figured Finland to be a Nazi ally in a war against the USSR.

    As a result of Molotov-Ribbentrop, the Nazis took Poland which had been part of the Russian Empire. This facet shows that the USSR regarded itself as not being so strong against Nazi Germany.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Mikhail

    Finland had bad relations with Germany before 1940, and was very Western, not Germany, oriented, as Franco-British plans for help during the Winter War show us, anyway Stalin's demands were seen too excessive in Finland, and Stalin by his policy choices and aggression forced Finland into German camp little before operation Barbarossa.

    Remember that Finns had two separate wars against USSR, first defensive war, alone against Soviet aggression, and second war with Germans as allies in invasion of USSR.

    Replies: @Mikhail

  142. @AltanBakshi
    @notanon

    Hey it was the Poles who attacked Soviet Russia. Soviet invasion of Poland in 1920 was a result of Polish aggression, just like Soviet invasion of Germany in 1945 was a result of German aggression.

    Replies: @notanon, @Mikhail

    1939

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @notanon


    i don’t have a view on the broader question but the Bolsheviks did invade Poland in the 1920s
     
    Anyway if Stalin would have let Germany take all Poland he would have been an utter idiot, especially when Poland created by Pilsudski, was for whole interwar era, more hostile against USSR than any other country in the world.

    Im just wasting time with you...
  143. @AltanBakshi
    @notanon

    Hey it was the Poles who attacked Soviet Russia. Soviet invasion of Poland in 1920 was a result of Polish aggression, just like Soviet invasion of Germany in 1945 was a result of German aggression.

    Replies: @notanon, @Mikhail

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Mikhail

    Well existence of Croats and Poles is one of the best proofs against the existence of God, without those fiends it would be highly likely that whole Slavdom would be united under Russia's eternal loving and happy embrace, and Slavs would now have bases on moon, maybe even on Mars, but no, Polish and Croat slave mentality prefers German lords over Slavic brothers.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Mr. Hack

  144. utu says:
    @Ron Unz
    @Thorfinnsson


    In reality this plan is routinely discussed in WW2 histories. I just read two WW2 books, and both bring up the plan. The first is Richard Overy’s The Bombing War, and the second is Niklas Zetterling’s Blitzkrieg: From the Ground Up.
     
    You're entirely correct that the 700 page Overy book published in 2013 devotes most of one paragraph to the planned Allied attack on the Soviets in early 1940, and the 2017 Zetterling gives a full 78 words to the same topic, while referencing a 1975 book published in German. David Irving also briefly mentioned it in one of his Churchill books, and I'm sure there are other exceptions as well.

    When the issue came up a year or two ago, and several people tried to locate references via Google, those book didn't come up, presumably because they were so scanty. I suspect unless you'd actually read the book, you wouldn't have noticed them.

    Operation Pike, an extremely detailed 250 page monograph on the subject, was published in a very respectable military history series in 2000, at which point concealing the facts obviously became increasingly difficult. But even so, Chris Bellamy's 800 page Absolute War, regarded as a very authoritative account of Soviet Russia in WWII, was published in 2007 and contains not a single mention of those facts, and the Bellamy book seems very typical in this regard. The 2015 article published in the National Interest shocked its readers and brought the facts to a more general audience, putting further pressure on historians.

    Still, I think it's undeniable that an Allied attack on the USSR in early 1940 would have represented the entire turning point of the war, and it appears that such an attack was about to take place before Hitler successfully attacked France. Unless I'm mistaken, the planned strategic bombing campaign against the Soviets would have been the largest in world history to that date, and Overy would have looked very foolish if he had totally excluded it from his history of WWII bombing. So he gave it most of one paragraph.

    My guess would be the a large majority of WWII historians have been aware of the facts all along, but were very reluctant to ever mention them, for obvious political reasons. Indeed, McMeekin told me that he was hit very hard in the British press for his substantial discussion of Operation Pike and related matters. I wouldn't be surprised if the few pages he devoted to the topic were greater than the combined total words of all the other thousands of English-language WWII books published over the previous couple of generations.

    It's obviously a matter of personal opinion whether that constitutes a "cover up" of the likely turning point of WWII.

    As an exercise, I wonder if you could locate for me the longest coverage of Operation Pike in any mainstream English-language history book published until the last few years. Overy gave it most of one paragraph, so perhaps you can find an author who allocated a single full page, which would match the casual discussion in the 1952 memoirs of Sisley Huddleston, which is where I first discovered it.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @utu

    “concealing the facts”, “cover up” – The only reason for not dwelling on the Operation Pike too much was to conceal the fact from the general public that the USSR was an ally of Nazi Germany for the first 21 months of WWII during which time it attacked Poland, Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Rumania and supplied Nazi Germany with strategic raw materials. During that time communist organizations on orders from Moscow all over the world were to not engage in anti Nazi propaganda or activities. Communist organizations in occupied France were denouncing anti-German activities of pro-London French Resistance to Gestapo. Communists in the US actively supported America First Committee and the isolationist position. And when June 22, 1941 happened the order from Moscow was reversed 180° and whitewashing of what people did and said before began. This was a true Orwellian moment of WWII.

    Example: Almanac Singers with Pete Seeger pulled their May 1941 anti-war album from distribution and those who had already purchased copies were asked to return them. Pete Seeger “Washington Breakdown” vanished form memory

    Franklin D., listen to me
    You ain’t gonna send me ‘cross the sea
    ‘Cross the sea, ‘cross the sea
    You ain’t gonna send me ‘cross the sea

    Pete Seeger continued to sing about unions and then recorded another song to Franklin D this time titled “Dear Mr. President”:

    Now, Mr. President,
    We haven’t always agreed in the past, I know,
    But that ain’t at all important now.
    What is important is what we got to do,
    We got to lick Mr. Hitler, and until we do,
    Other things can wait.

    Concealing Operation Pike was easy because it was just a plan that was never implemented. However it was known (your unawareness of it till recently is surprising) but not really discussed in terms of what the world would looked like if it was implemented or were French and British really serious. Was it just a plan devised on military command level while the higher up politicians knew from the very beginning that eventually the honeymoon of Hitler and Stalin would be over?

    Roosevelt was counting on Russo-German war and having Russia as an ally against Hitler. In November 1938 Ambassador William Bullit, Jr. said:

    As the Soviet Union’s potential strength is not yet known, it might happen that Germany would have moved too far away from its base, and would be condemned to wage a long and weakening war. Only then would the democratic countries attack Germany, Bullitt declared, and force her to capitulate.

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    @utu


    Concealing Operation Pike was easy because it was just a plan that was never implemented. However it was known (your unawareness of it till recently is surprising)
     
    Well, until fairly recently I had never closely investigated WWII, and therefore relied upon the standard history texts and contemporary media articles, none of which ever hinted at Operation Pike. I'm not sure you can find two paragraphs on it in any English-language book published in the last 70 years. So if no one ever mentioned something so momentous as a planned 1940 Allied attack on the USSR, how was I to ever suspect its existence?

    I doubt I'm alone in that regard. I suspect that if you took a sample of upper-end well-educated Americans, say the top half of Ivy League graduates of the last 50 years, and described Operation Pike to them, 99+% would have never heard of it, and probably denounce you as a "crazy conspiracy theorist" for believing in such nonsense.

    I'd think most professional historians, especially those specializing in WWII, are at least aware of it, but perhaps treat it as a semi-forbidden subject, as McMeekin discovered when it became the main focus of the attacks on his book.

    Replies: @Coconuts

  145. @notanon
    @AltanBakshi

    1939

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    i don’t have a view on the broader question but the Bolsheviks did invade Poland in the 1920s

    Anyway if Stalin would have let Germany take all Poland he would have been an utter idiot, especially when Poland created by Pilsudski, was for whole interwar era, more hostile against USSR than any other country in the world.

    Im just wasting time with you…

  146. @Ron Unz
    @Thorfinnsson


    Operation Pike did not actually take place, which is why you do not find it extensively written about. Is this mysterious to you? Perhaps you find it very interesting that historians are deeply reluctant to write at length about Operation Felix, the proposed Axis assault on Gibraltar which never took place....There is no turning point stemming from Operation Pike because nothing happened. I’m not really sure why you think historians refusing to devote themselves to events that never took place constitutes evidence of a coverup.
     
    You're making yourself look foolish by denying the obvious. Germany and the Allies were at war, and Gibraltar was an obvious strategic target. A German assault might have been successful or not, and might have been cost-effective or not, but that's an entirely different scenario than an Allied attack on the USSR in early 1940.

    You say the silence is explained by the fact that it never happened. Okay. Yet oddly enough, all the history books provide substantial mention of the German plans for a possible invasion of Britain in 1940, which also never happened. Attacking the USSR and bringing it into the war would have been far more momentous.

    And the planned attack wasn't merely one of those endless military "hypotheticals." Unmarked Allied planes were already illegally overflying Soviet airspace to select initial bombing targets. Detailed negotiations were taking place with the Turks and the Iranians to enlist them in the attack on the USSR. Target dates for the attack had been set on several occasions and then postponed. It appears that the main reason the attack never took place was the German conquest of France. The Germans then seized and published all the secret French documents so that every well-informed observer soon became aware of the plans.

    And it sounds like you admit that the strategic Allied bombing offense would have been the largest in world history, intended to entirely destroy the Soviet oil industry, thereby perhaps causing a famine that would overthrow Stalin's regime.

    Consider something that is always mentioned in almost every WWII history book. The following year, the British government repeatedly attempted to warn Stalin that Hitler was planning to attack, but Stalin disregarded those warnings, and the books tend to explain this as due to Stalin's "paranoia." But Stalin knew perfectly well that less than a year earlier the British had been planning an all-out attack against the USSR, and surely that was a contributing factor. Yet not a single history book ever mentions this obvious and important fact, and I doubt whether even 0.1% of the readers are aware of it. You argue that's not a cover-up, so I guess you believe that the books lacked space for an additional sentence or two of explanation.

    Here's another example. It seems pretty solidly established that the Allies tried and failed to assassinate Charles de Gaulle and the Americans decided to assassinate Chiang Kai-shek, but later changed their minds. Your theory is that these incidents were excluded from all the history books because they never happened. Okay, but it seems pretty likely that Sikorski, the leader of the Polish government in exile, was assassinated in exactly that same way, and the reality of that particular incident has also been excluded from all the history books.

    It's hardly the most surprising thing in the world for a nation's historians to cover up very embarrassing aspects of their major wars. And to completely deny that reality makes someone look rather ridiculous.

    Replies: @JohnnyWalker123, @Thorfinnsson, @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    What’s your opinion of this?

    Thanks.

    • LOL: Daniel Chieh
  147. @Mikhail
    @notanon


    i don’t have a view on the broader question but the Bolsheviks did invade Poland in the 1920s and we know Stalin wanted to invade Poland and Finland because he did

    so at a minimum i could see him thinking on how to get Poland *without* war with the west.
     
    Stalin's war with Finland cam after he offered the Finns a strategic land swap before choosing the war option. At the time, Stalin likely figured Finland to be a Nazi ally in a war against the USSR.

    As a result of Molotov-Ribbentrop, the Nazis took Poland which had been part of the Russian Empire. This facet shows that the USSR regarded itself as not being so strong against Nazi Germany.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    Finland had bad relations with Germany before 1940, and was very Western, not Germany, oriented, as Franco-British plans for help during the Winter War show us, anyway Stalin’s demands were seen too excessive in Finland, and Stalin by his policy choices and aggression forced Finland into German camp little before operation Barbarossa.

    Remember that Finns had two separate wars against USSR, first defensive war, alone against Soviet aggression, and second war with Germans as allies in invasion of USSR.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @AltanBakshi


    Finland had bad relations with Germany before 1940, and was very Western, not Germany, oriented, as Franco-British plans for help during the Winter War show us, anyway Stalin’s demands were seen too excessive in Finland, and Stalin by his policy choices and aggression forced Finland into German camp little before operation Barbarossa.
     
    Germany at the time didn't want to upset the idea of a nonaggression pact with the USSR, which was viewed by Berlin as one of temporary convenience.

    In the greater scheme of things, it could be reasonably deduced at the time that Finland would support Germany in a Nazi-Soviet war situation.

    Remember that Finns had two separate wars against USSR, first defensive war, alone against Soviet aggression, and second war with Germans as allies in invasion of USSR.
     
    As I mentioned further up this thread, the USSR offered a land swap which Finland (by right) refused. The Soviet reasoning had to do with a hypothetical Soviet-Nazi war, with Finland as a Nazi ally.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  148. @Ron Unz
    @Thorfinnsson


    Operation Pike did not actually take place, which is why you do not find it extensively written about. Is this mysterious to you? Perhaps you find it very interesting that historians are deeply reluctant to write at length about Operation Felix, the proposed Axis assault on Gibraltar which never took place....There is no turning point stemming from Operation Pike because nothing happened. I’m not really sure why you think historians refusing to devote themselves to events that never took place constitutes evidence of a coverup.
     
    You're making yourself look foolish by denying the obvious. Germany and the Allies were at war, and Gibraltar was an obvious strategic target. A German assault might have been successful or not, and might have been cost-effective or not, but that's an entirely different scenario than an Allied attack on the USSR in early 1940.

    You say the silence is explained by the fact that it never happened. Okay. Yet oddly enough, all the history books provide substantial mention of the German plans for a possible invasion of Britain in 1940, which also never happened. Attacking the USSR and bringing it into the war would have been far more momentous.

    And the planned attack wasn't merely one of those endless military "hypotheticals." Unmarked Allied planes were already illegally overflying Soviet airspace to select initial bombing targets. Detailed negotiations were taking place with the Turks and the Iranians to enlist them in the attack on the USSR. Target dates for the attack had been set on several occasions and then postponed. It appears that the main reason the attack never took place was the German conquest of France. The Germans then seized and published all the secret French documents so that every well-informed observer soon became aware of the plans.

    And it sounds like you admit that the strategic Allied bombing offense would have been the largest in world history, intended to entirely destroy the Soviet oil industry, thereby perhaps causing a famine that would overthrow Stalin's regime.

    Consider something that is always mentioned in almost every WWII history book. The following year, the British government repeatedly attempted to warn Stalin that Hitler was planning to attack, but Stalin disregarded those warnings, and the books tend to explain this as due to Stalin's "paranoia." But Stalin knew perfectly well that less than a year earlier the British had been planning an all-out attack against the USSR, and surely that was a contributing factor. Yet not a single history book ever mentions this obvious and important fact, and I doubt whether even 0.1% of the readers are aware of it. You argue that's not a cover-up, so I guess you believe that the books lacked space for an additional sentence or two of explanation.

    Here's another example. It seems pretty solidly established that the Allies tried and failed to assassinate Charles de Gaulle and the Americans decided to assassinate Chiang Kai-shek, but later changed their minds. Your theory is that these incidents were excluded from all the history books because they never happened. Okay, but it seems pretty likely that Sikorski, the leader of the Polish government in exile, was assassinated in exactly that same way, and the reality of that particular incident has also been excluded from all the history books.

    It's hardly the most surprising thing in the world for a nation's historians to cover up very embarrassing aspects of their major wars. And to completely deny that reality makes someone look rather ridiculous.

    Replies: @JohnnyWalker123, @Thorfinnsson, @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    You’re making yourself look foolish by denying the obvious. Germany and the Allies were at war, and Gibraltar was an obvious strategic target. A German assault might have been successful or not, and might have been cost-effective or not, but that’s an entirely different scenario than an Allied attack on the USSR in early 1940.

    Why is it an entirely different scenario?

    Germany was dependent on imports of oil, many of which came from the Soviet Union.

    Likewise, Germany was dependent on imports of Swedish iron ore which is why the allies also drew up plans to intervene in Scandinavia (never mentioned by you).

    The allies had defeated Germany in WW1 through economic strangulation, so these strategic targets were obvious enough to allied planners.

    You say the silence is explained by the fact that it never happened. Okay. Yet oddly enough, all the history books provide substantial mention of the German plans for a possible invasion of Britain in 1940, which also never happened. Attacking the USSR and bringing it into the war would have been far more momentous.

    Well, this is a reasonable point, but I would state the discrepancy is explained by the following:

    • Germany and Britain were at war
    • Britain had been driven from the Continent
    • There was an actual Battle of Britain intended as a prelude to invasion

    And the planned attack wasn’t merely one of those endless military “hypotheticals.” Unmarked Allied planes were already illegally overflying Soviet airspace to select initial bombing targets. Detailed negotiations were taking place with the Turks and the Iranians to enlist them in the attack on the USSR. Target dates for the attack had been set on several occasions and then postponed. It appears that the main reason the attack never took place was the German conquest of France. The Germans then seized and published all the secret French documents so that every well-informed observer soon became aware of the plans.

    Yes, it’s quite ordinary to engage in detailed planning and reconnaissance in advance of projected military operations.

    German planes were also illegally overflying Soviet airspace prior to 1941, and for that matter Soviet aircraft were illegally overflying German airspace. In an era at which radar technology was in its infancy, illegal overflights were routine. And of course illegal overflights continued for many years after the war as demonstrated by the CIA’s illegal U-2 overflights of the USSR.

    Neutrals were throughout both World Wars endlessly beseeched by the belligerents to try to enlist them in the war. The cajoling of Turkey and Iran is therefore nothing unusual, and Britain (and Germany) would continue trying to seduce Turkey through the entire war. Iran for its part ended up suffering a joint Anglo-Soviet invasion.

    And it sounds like you admit that the strategic Allied bombing offense would have been the largest in world history, intended to entirely destroy the Soviet oil industry, thereby perhaps causing a famine that would overthrow Stalin’s regime.

    A hypothetical allied bombing of the Soviet oil industry would have been the largest in world history to that time in the same way that the Ford Model T was the fastest production sedan in world history at the time of its introduction.

    If you understand the analogy, it’s a true but irrelevant or misleading statement because the absolute power of the “world’s largest strategic bombing offensive” in mid-1940 is trivial. It wouldn’t be until 1943 that RAF Bomber Command evolved into a terrifying instrument of urban mass destruction as demonstrated by the Battle of the Ruhr and Operation Gomorrah (the firebombing of Hamburg).

    An allied attempt in 1940 to bomb the Soviet Union would have done very little damage indeed, and probably many of the planes would be unable to reach their targets. Indeed this was the experience of the RAF in its efforts to bomb Germany in ’40-41. While the Soviet oil industry would be undamaged, such an attack could potentially have motivated the USSR to join the Axis.

    Consider something that is always mentioned in almost every WWII history book. The following year, the British government repeatedly attempted to warn Stalin that Hitler was planning to attack, but Stalin disregarded those warnings, and the books tend to explain this as due to Stalin’s “paranoia.” But Stalin knew perfectly well that less than a year earlier the British had been planning an all-out attack against the USSR, and surely that was a contributing factor. Yet not a single history book ever mentions this obvious and important fact, and I doubt whether even 0.1% of the readers are aware of it. You argue that’s not a cover-up, so I guess you believe that the books lacked space for an additional sentence or two of explanation.

    Actually it’s a fairly standard explanation that Stalin did not trust the British, though to your credit I’ve never once seen this tied to Operation Pike. It should be pointed out that Stalin also had ample reasons for distrusting the British beyond Operation Pike.

    Your last point is a strawman. My basic contention here is that most WW2 historians and buffs do not find Operation Pike to be as interesting or significant as you do, and that explains the lack of coverage.

    Here’s another example. It seems pretty solidly established that the Allies tried and failed to assassinate Charles de Gaulle and the Americans decided to assassinate Chiang Kai-shek, but later changed their minds. Your theory is that these incidents were excluded from all the history books because they never happened. Okay, but it seems pretty likely that Sikorski, the leader of the Polish government in exile, was assassinated in exactly that same way, and the reality of that particular incident has also been excluded from all the history books.

    Frustration with de Gaulle and “Cash-my-Check” is a common staple of period histories which focus on these regions and/or personalities. The successful murder of Admiral Darlan is another WW2 assassination conspiracy.

    You’re on firmer ground with the murder of Sikorski, where there probably is a coverup. Means, motive, and opportunity all point to this.

    It’s hardly the most surprising thing in the world for a nation’s historians to cover up very embarrassing aspects of their major wars. And to completely deny that reality makes someone look rather ridiculous.

    I have no disagreement with this as a general point, but in my view it doesn’t apply to Operation Pike. Operation Pike is embarrassing, but not in the way you imply. It’s embarrassing because it was a foolish scheme doomed to failure, and doubly so because it was indicative of Anglo-French unwillingness to directly attack Germany.

    • Thanks: AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @Triteleia Laxa
    @Thorfinnsson


    My basic contention here is that most WW2 historians and buffs do not find Operation Pike to be as interesting or significant as you do, and that explains the lack of coverage.
     
    Yes.

    Militaries make plans for everything. Planning exercises are fun and the bread and butter of the commissioned officer. Military historians know this. I guess some amateur "sleuths" don't, and get extremely excitable when a particular plan suits their particular agenda.
    , @Ron Unz
    @Thorfinnsson


    German planes were also illegally overflying Soviet airspace prior to 1941, and for that matter Soviet aircraft were illegally overflying German airspace.
     
    Well yes, that's because Germany was preparing to attack the Soviets and the Soviets were (probably) preparing to attack Germany. Similarly, the Allies were preparing to attack the USSR.

    A hypothetical allied bombing of the Soviet oil industry would have been the largest in world history to that time in the same way that the Ford Model T was the fastest production sedan in world history at the time of its introduction.

    If you understand the analogy, it’s a true but irrelevant or misleading statement because the absolute power of the “world’s largest strategic bombing offensive” in mid-1940 is trivial.
     
    Military hindsight is 20-20. The Allies were absolutely convinced that their strategic bombing offensive would totally annihilate the Soviet oil industry. They were mistaken.

    While the Soviet oil industry would be undamaged, such an attack could potentially have motivated the USSR to join the Axis.
     
    Exactly! The crucial point is that Operation Pike would have ensured an Allied defeat in WWII. That's why I entitled my article "How Hitler Saved the Allies."

    As I just suggested above, I think you might have a very difficult time finding even two paragraphs discussing Operation Pike in any English-language history book published in the last 70 years, with 99% of them not mentioning a word. I consider that a cover-up.

    And if you told the story to a large group of upper-end well-educated Americans, 99+% would probably regard you as a nut for believing in a "crazy conspiracy theory." Sounds like a very successful cover-up to me.

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa, @Thorfinnsson

  149. @sudden death
    @sudden death

    haha, "white" reaction was quick:


    'He wants to see fans cheering and not booing': Boris Johnson slaps down Priti Patel after she accuses England footballers of 'gesture politics' for taking the knee and refuses to condemn fans who jeered players at Wembley
     
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-9684497/Priti-Patel-accuses-England-footballers-gesture-politics-taking-knee.html

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    Such a cuck. This guy is still a prime minister, and the lampposts are empty?

  150. @Thorfinnsson
    @Ron Unz

    Operation Pike did not actually take place, which is why you do not find it extensively written about. Is this mysterious to you? Perhaps you find it very interesting that historians are deeply reluctant to write at length about Operation Felix, the proposed Axis assault on Gibraltar which never took place.

    The plan went through numerous conceptions as most military plans do, but it would have been one of the larger strategic bombing efforts in world history to date by virtue of the fact that prior to the German Blitz most strategic bombing efforts to date had been quite puny.

    The plan would have failed completely in its objectives given the state of technology at the time and the small forces involved. As you rightly point out it could have carried catastrophic political consequences as well.

    There is no turning point stemming from Operation Pike because nothing happened. I'm not really sure why you think historians refusing to devote themselves to events that never took place constitutes evidence of a coverup.

    The reason I provided the excerpts I did is that those two books are quite literally the last two books I read. I've been reading WW2 literature for over two decades, and while Operation Pike certainly is not mentioned in every book it's not something that's intentionally hidden.

    Overy could I suppose be accused of concealing British plans to wage war against Germany's food supply with anthrax, because Operation Vegetarian is not discussed in his book. But once again, this is something that never took place (and Overy does mention other British plans to use chemical and biological weapons).

    Replies: @Ron Unz, @iffen

    I’m sure that you feel silly after reading the responding comment.

  151. @Thorfinnsson
    @Ron Unz

    You’re making yourself look foolish by denying the obvious. Germany and the Allies were at war, and Gibraltar was an obvious strategic target. A German assault might have been successful or not, and might have been cost-effective or not, but that’s an entirely different scenario than an Allied attack on the USSR in early 1940.
     

    Why is it an entirely different scenario?

    Germany was dependent on imports of oil, many of which came from the Soviet Union.

    Likewise, Germany was dependent on imports of Swedish iron ore which is why the allies also drew up plans to intervene in Scandinavia (never mentioned by you).

    The allies had defeated Germany in WW1 through economic strangulation, so these strategic targets were obvious enough to allied planners.

    You say the silence is explained by the fact that it never happened. Okay. Yet oddly enough, all the history books provide substantial mention of the German plans for a possible invasion of Britain in 1940, which also never happened. Attacking the USSR and bringing it into the war would have been far more momentous.
     

    Well, this is a reasonable point, but I would state the discrepancy is explained by the following:

    • Germany and Britain were at war
    • Britain had been driven from the Continent
    • There was an actual Battle of Britain intended as a prelude to invasion

    And the planned attack wasn’t merely one of those endless military “hypotheticals.” Unmarked Allied planes were already illegally overflying Soviet airspace to select initial bombing targets. Detailed negotiations were taking place with the Turks and the Iranians to enlist them in the attack on the USSR. Target dates for the attack had been set on several occasions and then postponed. It appears that the main reason the attack never took place was the German conquest of France. The Germans then seized and published all the secret French documents so that every well-informed observer soon became aware of the plans.
     

    Yes, it's quite ordinary to engage in detailed planning and reconnaissance in advance of projected military operations.

    German planes were also illegally overflying Soviet airspace prior to 1941, and for that matter Soviet aircraft were illegally overflying German airspace. In an era at which radar technology was in its infancy, illegal overflights were routine. And of course illegal overflights continued for many years after the war as demonstrated by the CIA's illegal U-2 overflights of the USSR.

    Neutrals were throughout both World Wars endlessly beseeched by the belligerents to try to enlist them in the war. The cajoling of Turkey and Iran is therefore nothing unusual, and Britain (and Germany) would continue trying to seduce Turkey through the entire war. Iran for its part ended up suffering a joint Anglo-Soviet invasion.

    And it sounds like you admit that the strategic Allied bombing offense would have been the largest in world history, intended to entirely destroy the Soviet oil industry, thereby perhaps causing a famine that would overthrow Stalin’s regime.
     

    A hypothetical allied bombing of the Soviet oil industry would have been the largest in world history to that time in the same way that the Ford Model T was the fastest production sedan in world history at the time of its introduction.

    If you understand the analogy, it's a true but irrelevant or misleading statement because the absolute power of the "world's largest strategic bombing offensive" in mid-1940 is trivial. It wouldn't be until 1943 that RAF Bomber Command evolved into a terrifying instrument of urban mass destruction as demonstrated by the Battle of the Ruhr and Operation Gomorrah (the firebombing of Hamburg).

    An allied attempt in 1940 to bomb the Soviet Union would have done very little damage indeed, and probably many of the planes would be unable to reach their targets. Indeed this was the experience of the RAF in its efforts to bomb Germany in '40-41. While the Soviet oil industry would be undamaged, such an attack could potentially have motivated the USSR to join the Axis.

    Consider something that is always mentioned in almost every WWII history book. The following year, the British government repeatedly attempted to warn Stalin that Hitler was planning to attack, but Stalin disregarded those warnings, and the books tend to explain this as due to Stalin’s “paranoia.” But Stalin knew perfectly well that less than a year earlier the British had been planning an all-out attack against the USSR, and surely that was a contributing factor. Yet not a single history book ever mentions this obvious and important fact, and I doubt whether even 0.1% of the readers are aware of it. You argue that’s not a cover-up, so I guess you believe that the books lacked space for an additional sentence or two of explanation.
     

    Actually it's a fairly standard explanation that Stalin did not trust the British, though to your credit I've never once seen this tied to Operation Pike. It should be pointed out that Stalin also had ample reasons for distrusting the British beyond Operation Pike.

    Your last point is a strawman. My basic contention here is that most WW2 historians and buffs do not find Operation Pike to be as interesting or significant as you do, and that explains the lack of coverage.

    Here’s another example. It seems pretty solidly established that the Allies tried and failed to assassinate Charles de Gaulle and the Americans decided to assassinate Chiang Kai-shek, but later changed their minds. Your theory is that these incidents were excluded from all the history books because they never happened. Okay, but it seems pretty likely that Sikorski, the leader of the Polish government in exile, was assassinated in exactly that same way, and the reality of that particular incident has also been excluded from all the history books.
     

    Frustration with de Gaulle and "Cash-my-Check" is a common staple of period histories which focus on these regions and/or personalities. The successful murder of Admiral Darlan is another WW2 assassination conspiracy.

    You're on firmer ground with the murder of Sikorski, where there probably is a coverup. Means, motive, and opportunity all point to this.

    It’s hardly the most surprising thing in the world for a nation’s historians to cover up very embarrassing aspects of their major wars. And to completely deny that reality makes someone look rather ridiculous.
     

    I have no disagreement with this as a general point, but in my view it doesn't apply to Operation Pike. Operation Pike is embarrassing, but not in the way you imply. It's embarrassing because it was a foolish scheme doomed to failure, and doubly so because it was indicative of Anglo-French unwillingness to directly attack Germany.

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa, @Ron Unz

    My basic contention here is that most WW2 historians and buffs do not find Operation Pike to be as interesting or significant as you do, and that explains the lack of coverage.

    Yes.

    Militaries make plans for everything. Planning exercises are fun and the bread and butter of the commissioned officer. Military historians know this. I guess some amateur “sleuths” don’t, and get extremely excitable when a particular plan suits their particular agenda.

    • Agree: AltanBakshi
  152. I knew the Chinese had it in them 🙂 A national movement of Bartleby the Scriveners. One must remember this is the nation that gave birth to Taoism. Bravo China!

    https://www.insider.com/disenchanted-chinese-youth-join-a-mass-movement-to-lie-flat-2021-6

    And more good news from America –

    https://www.axios.com/resignations-companies-e279fcfc-c8e7-4955-8a9b-47562490ee55.html

    Is the world changing?

    • Replies: @Dissident
    @AaronB

    Your first link:
    More and more Chinese 20-somethings are rejecting the rat race and 'lying flat' after watching their friends work themselves to death


    Neijuan goes hand in hand with China's "9-9-6" culture. The term refers to China's "hustle" culture, where people work 12 hours a day from 9 a.m. to 9 p.m., six days a week. The 9-9-6 lifestyle was strongly championed by Jack Ma, founder of Alibaba, who once in 2019 called the 72-hour workweek a "blessing." Long workdays are not only common but "expected" of staff, despite China's labor policy mandating that employees not work more than eight hours a day.

    Poor enforcement of labor laws has led to rampant cases of overwork. Stories of people dying at their desks or suffering from depression and exhaustion are not uncommon.
     

    I wish them well.

    Pepe the Frog (also known as the "sad frog") was co-opted as an icon of "sang" culture in China, symbolizing the sad reality of modern living in China. Jade Gao/AFP via Getty Images
     
    Interesting.

    Your second link:
    "Great resignation" wave coming for companies


    Companies that made it through the pandemic in one piece now have a major new problem: more than a quarter of their employees may leave.

    What's happening: Workers have had more than a year to reconsider work-life balance or career paths, and as the world opens back up, many of them will give their two weeks' notice and make those changes they’ve been dreaming about.
    [...]
    "Hopefully we’ll see a lot more people in 2022 employed and stable because they're in jobs they actually like," she says.
     

    Who could take exception to a sentiment such as that? We would all love to be able to support ourselves by doing something we enjoy. The reality, however, is that often (and likely more often than not) is simply not practical or realistic.

    I wanted to make sure you were aware that Audacious Epigone had finally responded to the questions and concerns concerning moderation that we had recently voiced at his blog.


    @AaronB

    Your lack of auto-approval comes from somewhere else on the site the blog doesn’t have access to. You’re in the auto-approval bin here just as Dissident is.
     


    @Dissident

    The issue is how far down the list of priorities comment reviews of auto-approved commenters are on the list of things for the blog to do. It’s been duly noted and will be fixed, sorry.
     

    כל טוב

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon, @AaronB

    , @Morton's toes
    @AaronB

    There was a massive bait and switch performed on the American workers in my cohort.

    We were recruited into competing in a rat-race. There would be a bunch of losers; but there would be a few winners.

    Turns out it was sysyphus pushing boulders up mountains and none of us were going to win anything. Our head would stay above water and we wouldn't drown if lucky. Meanwhile 100% of our life's energy was appropriated.

    Screw that!

    I have adopted Dave Ramsey's philosophy. Debt free baby. Mortgage. Look it up.

    Old French mort gage (“death pledge”)

    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mortgage

  153. A123 says: • Website

    One common characteristic of all deranged Leftoids is a total absence of anything resembling a sense of humor. The New York Times took this to an extreme when they went after humor site The Babylon Bee.

    Good news… The humorless SJW Leftoids have caved (1)

    The Babylon Bee Scores a Major Victory Over The New York Times

    On Monday, Babylon Bee CEO Seth Dillon announced that The New York Times had agreed to drop its arguably defamatory attack on the Babylon Bee after the Bee sent multiple demand letters threatening a defamation lawsuit. Under the guise of reporting, the Times claimed that the Bee “frequently trafficked in misinformation under the guise of satire.” While the Times originally agreed to weaken the attack somewhat, its updated story still suggested that the Bee is one of the “far-right misinformation sites that used ‘satire’ claims to protect their presence on [Facebook].”

    The Babylon Bee makes leftists uncomfortable because it hilariously satirizes their ideologies from a conservative Christian perspective.

    PEACE 😇
    __________

    (1) https://pjmedia.com/news-and-politics/tyler-o-neil/2021/06/14/breaking-new-york-times-surrenders-to-babylon-bee-n1454473

    • LOL: Yellowface Anon
  154. @AaronB
    I knew the Chinese had it in them :) A national movement of Bartleby the Scriveners. One must remember this is the nation that gave birth to Taoism. Bravo China!

    https://www.insider.com/disenchanted-chinese-youth-join-a-mass-movement-to-lie-flat-2021-6

    And more good news from America -

    https://www.axios.com/resignations-companies-e279fcfc-c8e7-4955-8a9b-47562490ee55.html

    Is the world changing?

    Replies: @Dissident, @Morton's toes

    Your first link:
    More and more Chinese 20-somethings are rejecting the rat race and ‘lying flat’ after watching their friends work themselves to death

    Neijuan goes hand in hand with China’s “9-9-6” culture. The term refers to China’s “hustle” culture, where people work 12 hours a day from 9 a.m. to 9 p.m., six days a week. The 9-9-6 lifestyle was strongly championed by Jack Ma, founder of Alibaba, who once in 2019 called the 72-hour workweek a “blessing.” Long workdays are not only common but “expected” of staff, despite China’s labor policy mandating that employees not work more than eight hours a day.

    Poor enforcement of labor laws has led to rampant cases of overwork. Stories of people dying at their desks or suffering from depression and exhaustion are not uncommon.

    I wish them well.

    [MORE]

    Pepe the Frog (also known as the “sad frog”) was co-opted as an icon of “sang” culture in China, symbolizing the sad reality of modern living in China. Jade Gao/AFP via Getty Images

    Interesting.

    Your second link:
    “Great resignation” wave coming for companies

    Companies that made it through the pandemic in one piece now have a major new problem: more than a quarter of their employees may leave.

    What’s happening: Workers have had more than a year to reconsider work-life balance or career paths, and as the world opens back up, many of them will give their two weeks’ notice and make those changes they’ve been dreaming about.
    […]
    “Hopefully we’ll see a lot more people in 2022 employed and stable because they’re in jobs they actually like,” she says.

    Who could take exception to a sentiment such as that? We would all love to be able to support ourselves by doing something we enjoy. The reality, however, is that often (and likely more often than not) is simply not practical or realistic.

    I wanted to make sure you were aware that Audacious Epigone had finally responded to the questions and concerns concerning moderation that we had recently voiced at his blog.

    Your lack of auto-approval comes from somewhere else on the site the blog doesn’t have access to. You’re in the auto-approval bin here just as Dissident is.

    The issue is how far down the list of priorities comment reviews of auto-approved commenters are on the list of things for the blog to do. It’s been duly noted and will be fixed, sorry.

    כל טוב

    • Replies: @Yellowface Anon
    @Dissident

    I was the first to brought that "lying low" sentiment up in Karlin's open thread. It's just the redux of Japan's low-expectation society, with an additional but light stain of resistance to the system and the establishment. That's the reaction to the high-pressure form of Capitalism practiced in East Asia.

    For the 2nd link, your quote put it quite well. Now wait for the inevitable high inflation + UBI...

    We are indeed moving away from the Capitalist ethic of accumulation for accumulation's sake, which is much more fundamental than what Schwab can imagine.

    Replies: @AaronB

    , @AaronB
    @Dissident


    Who could take exception to a sentiment such as that? We would all love to be able to support ourselves by doing something we enjoy. The reality, however, is that often (and likely more often than not) is simply not practical or realistic.
     
    Yes, I agree that people will always have to work jobs that are intrinsically unappealing. What I'm objecting to is an economic climate that allows bosses to make jobs unnecessarily shitty, by paying low wages and being abusive and tyrannical on the assumption that workers have no option but to put up with it.

    The economic climate changing to give more power to workers is a positive development.

    Of course, it could go too far in the opposite direction and workers with too much power can hold employers hostage and cause economic stagnation.

    But right now, the problem in America is that capitalism is too ruthless.

    Beyond that relatively moderate position, anthropologist David Grabber has convincingly shown - to me, at any rate, and perhaps a few others :) - that the majority of jobs in a modern economy are "bullshit", and create solely out of our elites fear that providing people with a sense of economic security that will make them less easy to exploit.

    Graeber argues that in fact, we have already lived through a "silent" automation revolution that has rendered much work for many people obsolete, but our elites have for various philosophical and self serving pragmatic reasons chosen to hide this fact.

    In this context, the increasing celebration of the ruthless Chinese model - on the part of both right and left, even though for ostensibly different reasons - becomes particularly insidious.

    I wanted to make sure you were aware that Audacious Epigone had finally responded to the questions and concerns concerning moderation that we had recently voiced at his blog.
     
    Thank you, I did not see this! I had a strong suspicion that Ron Unz was behind it (lol :)), but I thought I had asked AE to clarify in the past and he ignored my question, which made me think perhaps not. Perhaps I misremembered.

    Anyways, thanks for your efforts in this regard!
  155. @utu
    @Ron Unz

    "concealing the facts", “cover up” - The only reason for not dwelling on the Operation Pike too much was to conceal the fact from the general public that the USSR was an ally of Nazi Germany for the first 21 months of WWII during which time it attacked Poland, Finland, Estonia, Latvia, Lithuania and Rumania and supplied Nazi Germany with strategic raw materials. During that time communist organizations on orders from Moscow all over the world were to not engage in anti Nazi propaganda or activities. Communist organizations in occupied France were denouncing anti-German activities of pro-London French Resistance to Gestapo. Communists in the US actively supported America First Committee and the isolationist position. And when June 22, 1941 happened the order from Moscow was reversed 180° and whitewashing of what people did and said before began. This was a true Orwellian moment of WWII.

    Example: Almanac Singers with Pete Seeger pulled their May 1941 anti-war album from distribution and those who had already purchased copies were asked to return them. Pete Seeger "Washington Breakdown" vanished form memory


    Franklin D., listen to me
    You ain't gonna send me 'cross the sea
    'Cross the sea, 'cross the sea
    You ain't gonna send me 'cross the sea
     
    Pete Seeger continued to sing about unions and then recorded another song to Franklin D this time titled "Dear Mr. President":

    Now, Mr. President,
    We haven't always agreed in the past, I know,
    But that ain't at all important now.
    What is important is what we got to do,
    We got to lick Mr. Hitler, and until we do,
    Other things can wait.
     
    Concealing Operation Pike was easy because it was just a plan that was never implemented. However it was known (your unawareness of it till recently is surprising) but not really discussed in terms of what the world would looked like if it was implemented or were French and British really serious. Was it just a plan devised on military command level while the higher up politicians knew from the very beginning that eventually the honeymoon of Hitler and Stalin would be over?

    https://i.ibb.co/GcStBXM/Stalin-Htl.png

    Roosevelt was counting on Russo-German war and having Russia as an ally against Hitler. In November 1938 Ambassador William Bullit, Jr. said:


    As the Soviet Union’s potential strength is not yet known, it might happen that Germany would have moved too far away from its base, and would be condemned to wage a long and weakening war. Only then would the democratic countries attack Germany, Bullitt declared, and force her to capitulate.
     

    Replies: @Ron Unz

    Concealing Operation Pike was easy because it was just a plan that was never implemented. However it was known (your unawareness of it till recently is surprising)

    Well, until fairly recently I had never closely investigated WWII, and therefore relied upon the standard history texts and contemporary media articles, none of which ever hinted at Operation Pike. I’m not sure you can find two paragraphs on it in any English-language book published in the last 70 years. So if no one ever mentioned something so momentous as a planned 1940 Allied attack on the USSR, how was I to ever suspect its existence?

    I doubt I’m alone in that regard. I suspect that if you took a sample of upper-end well-educated Americans, say the top half of Ivy League graduates of the last 50 years, and described Operation Pike to them, 99+% would have never heard of it, and probably denounce you as a “crazy conspiracy theorist” for believing in such nonsense.

    I’d think most professional historians, especially those specializing in WWII, are at least aware of it, but perhaps treat it as a semi-forbidden subject, as McMeekin discovered when it became the main focus of the attacks on his book.

    • Replies: @Coconuts
    @Ron Unz


    I doubt I’m alone in that regard. I suspect that if you took a sample of upper-end well-educated Americans, say the top half of Ivy League graduates of the last 50 years, and described Operation Pike to them, 99+% would have never heard of it, and probably denounce you as a “crazy conspiracy theorist” for believing in such nonsense.
     
    But in general many aspects of the early period of WW2 are not well known to the wider Anglo public and have started attracting deeper interest from English language historians only in the last 20-30 years.

    If you stated that in early 1940 the French Army was considered one of, if not the most, powerful and feared land force in the world many educated Americans would probably also think you were quite crazy.

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa

  156. @AltanBakshi
    @DNS

    You remember correctly, there's an article like that in NATO's rules, but it's BS, because both Estonia and Latvia had territorial disputes with Russia in 2003, but it was no obstacle for joining NATO.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon

    I’m not sure, but it is probably based on de jure (i.e. what the US says to be) borders?

    (But [South] Cyprus, only controlling 2/3 of its de jure territory, isn’t in NATO. Turkey is in NATO since it is actually Northern Cyprus’ business, but Ankara has some minor territorial and EEZ disputes with Greece as well that stem from the aftermath of Greco-Turkish War)

  157. @Thorfinnsson
    @Ron Unz

    You’re making yourself look foolish by denying the obvious. Germany and the Allies were at war, and Gibraltar was an obvious strategic target. A German assault might have been successful or not, and might have been cost-effective or not, but that’s an entirely different scenario than an Allied attack on the USSR in early 1940.
     

    Why is it an entirely different scenario?

    Germany was dependent on imports of oil, many of which came from the Soviet Union.

    Likewise, Germany was dependent on imports of Swedish iron ore which is why the allies also drew up plans to intervene in Scandinavia (never mentioned by you).

    The allies had defeated Germany in WW1 through economic strangulation, so these strategic targets were obvious enough to allied planners.

    You say the silence is explained by the fact that it never happened. Okay. Yet oddly enough, all the history books provide substantial mention of the German plans for a possible invasion of Britain in 1940, which also never happened. Attacking the USSR and bringing it into the war would have been far more momentous.
     

    Well, this is a reasonable point, but I would state the discrepancy is explained by the following:

    • Germany and Britain were at war
    • Britain had been driven from the Continent
    • There was an actual Battle of Britain intended as a prelude to invasion

    And the planned attack wasn’t merely one of those endless military “hypotheticals.” Unmarked Allied planes were already illegally overflying Soviet airspace to select initial bombing targets. Detailed negotiations were taking place with the Turks and the Iranians to enlist them in the attack on the USSR. Target dates for the attack had been set on several occasions and then postponed. It appears that the main reason the attack never took place was the German conquest of France. The Germans then seized and published all the secret French documents so that every well-informed observer soon became aware of the plans.
     

    Yes, it's quite ordinary to engage in detailed planning and reconnaissance in advance of projected military operations.

    German planes were also illegally overflying Soviet airspace prior to 1941, and for that matter Soviet aircraft were illegally overflying German airspace. In an era at which radar technology was in its infancy, illegal overflights were routine. And of course illegal overflights continued for many years after the war as demonstrated by the CIA's illegal U-2 overflights of the USSR.

    Neutrals were throughout both World Wars endlessly beseeched by the belligerents to try to enlist them in the war. The cajoling of Turkey and Iran is therefore nothing unusual, and Britain (and Germany) would continue trying to seduce Turkey through the entire war. Iran for its part ended up suffering a joint Anglo-Soviet invasion.

    And it sounds like you admit that the strategic Allied bombing offense would have been the largest in world history, intended to entirely destroy the Soviet oil industry, thereby perhaps causing a famine that would overthrow Stalin’s regime.
     

    A hypothetical allied bombing of the Soviet oil industry would have been the largest in world history to that time in the same way that the Ford Model T was the fastest production sedan in world history at the time of its introduction.

    If you understand the analogy, it's a true but irrelevant or misleading statement because the absolute power of the "world's largest strategic bombing offensive" in mid-1940 is trivial. It wouldn't be until 1943 that RAF Bomber Command evolved into a terrifying instrument of urban mass destruction as demonstrated by the Battle of the Ruhr and Operation Gomorrah (the firebombing of Hamburg).

    An allied attempt in 1940 to bomb the Soviet Union would have done very little damage indeed, and probably many of the planes would be unable to reach their targets. Indeed this was the experience of the RAF in its efforts to bomb Germany in '40-41. While the Soviet oil industry would be undamaged, such an attack could potentially have motivated the USSR to join the Axis.

    Consider something that is always mentioned in almost every WWII history book. The following year, the British government repeatedly attempted to warn Stalin that Hitler was planning to attack, but Stalin disregarded those warnings, and the books tend to explain this as due to Stalin’s “paranoia.” But Stalin knew perfectly well that less than a year earlier the British had been planning an all-out attack against the USSR, and surely that was a contributing factor. Yet not a single history book ever mentions this obvious and important fact, and I doubt whether even 0.1% of the readers are aware of it. You argue that’s not a cover-up, so I guess you believe that the books lacked space for an additional sentence or two of explanation.
     

    Actually it's a fairly standard explanation that Stalin did not trust the British, though to your credit I've never once seen this tied to Operation Pike. It should be pointed out that Stalin also had ample reasons for distrusting the British beyond Operation Pike.

    Your last point is a strawman. My basic contention here is that most WW2 historians and buffs do not find Operation Pike to be as interesting or significant as you do, and that explains the lack of coverage.

    Here’s another example. It seems pretty solidly established that the Allies tried and failed to assassinate Charles de Gaulle and the Americans decided to assassinate Chiang Kai-shek, but later changed their minds. Your theory is that these incidents were excluded from all the history books because they never happened. Okay, but it seems pretty likely that Sikorski, the leader of the Polish government in exile, was assassinated in exactly that same way, and the reality of that particular incident has also been excluded from all the history books.
     

    Frustration with de Gaulle and "Cash-my-Check" is a common staple of period histories which focus on these regions and/or personalities. The successful murder of Admiral Darlan is another WW2 assassination conspiracy.

    You're on firmer ground with the murder of Sikorski, where there probably is a coverup. Means, motive, and opportunity all point to this.

    It’s hardly the most surprising thing in the world for a nation’s historians to cover up very embarrassing aspects of their major wars. And to completely deny that reality makes someone look rather ridiculous.
     

    I have no disagreement with this as a general point, but in my view it doesn't apply to Operation Pike. Operation Pike is embarrassing, but not in the way you imply. It's embarrassing because it was a foolish scheme doomed to failure, and doubly so because it was indicative of Anglo-French unwillingness to directly attack Germany.

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa, @Ron Unz

    German planes were also illegally overflying Soviet airspace prior to 1941, and for that matter Soviet aircraft were illegally overflying German airspace.

    Well yes, that’s because Germany was preparing to attack the Soviets and the Soviets were (probably) preparing to attack Germany. Similarly, the Allies were preparing to attack the USSR.

    A hypothetical allied bombing of the Soviet oil industry would have been the largest in world history to that time in the same way that the Ford Model T was the fastest production sedan in world history at the time of its introduction.

    If you understand the analogy, it’s a true but irrelevant or misleading statement because the absolute power of the “world’s largest strategic bombing offensive” in mid-1940 is trivial.

    Military hindsight is 20-20. The Allies were absolutely convinced that their strategic bombing offensive would totally annihilate the Soviet oil industry. They were mistaken.

    While the Soviet oil industry would be undamaged, such an attack could potentially have motivated the USSR to join the Axis.

    Exactly! The crucial point is that Operation Pike would have ensured an Allied defeat in WWII. That’s why I entitled my article “How Hitler Saved the Allies.”

    As I just suggested above, I think you might have a very difficult time finding even two paragraphs discussing Operation Pike in any English-language history book published in the last 70 years, with 99% of them not mentioning a word. I consider that a cover-up.

    And if you told the story to a large group of upper-end well-educated Americans, 99+% would probably regard you as a nut for believing in a “crazy conspiracy theory.” Sounds like a very successful cover-up to me.

    • Replies: @Triteleia Laxa
    @Ron Unz

    Russia and NATO are often illegally flying over each other, but they clearly have no intention for an actual war.

    Please consider that while you can read historical evidence, you lack a lot of necessary expertise in evaluating it. You aren't to know how ordinary it is for militaries to plan everything, and, yes, conduct fly-overs to flesh out those plans; but you should at least understand that there is a lot you don't know.

    Replies: @silviosilver

    , @Thorfinnsson
    @Ron Unz

    So, both of us agree that Operation Pike was a real operational plan. I'm a little more skeptical that it would have been launched than you are, given the skepticism of the British Cabinet as well as the absence of any "strategic" formations in the French Air Force. But it's certainly possible. The British after all launched ships to mine Narvik before the Germans launched their invasion of Norway for instance.

    The real issue is that you think this was covered up because it's somehow embarrassing. Would you mind sharing why you think this is embarrassing? My understanding of you is that you think it's politically embarrassing for some reason. What is the reason for the coverup?

    My experience from many years of reading WW2 histories is that Operation Pike comes up about as occasionally as other operations never carried out such as Operation Catherine and Operation Tannenbaum. The major exceptions to this are Sealion and Operation Downfall. I decided to check this on Google Ngram, which you can use yourself. Be warned that the tool is case sensitive.

    I selected Operations Felix, Tannenbaum, Pike, and Catherine. Two German, and two allied. Here are the results: https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Operation+Pike%2COperation+Catherine%2COperation+Felix%2COperation+Tannenbaum&year_start=1940&year_end=2019&corpus=26&smoothing=3&direct_url=t1%3B%2COperation%20Pike%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2COperation%20Catherine%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2COperation%20Felix%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2COperation%20Tannenbaum%3B%2Cc0

    Felix dominates, but all have been written about at a low level since the end of the war. Pike has picked up a bit in popularity since the end of the 20th century.

    As for the possible consequences of Operation Pike, it may very well have motivated the USSR to join the Axis. That's a very interesting alternate history, but it belongs to fiction and is in the realm of Harry Turtledove and Stuart Slade.

    Lastly, there's the conjecture that Operation Pike would be rejected as a conspiracy theory by upper income, well-educated Americans. Maybe so, since they're trained to reject anything not presented by the media as a conspiracy theory. But I think they'd be more likely to accept the reality of Operation Pike than, say, the evidence that FDR was involved in fomenting the European war.

    Replies: @Ron Unz

  158. @Dissident
    @AaronB

    Your first link:
    More and more Chinese 20-somethings are rejecting the rat race and 'lying flat' after watching their friends work themselves to death


    Neijuan goes hand in hand with China's "9-9-6" culture. The term refers to China's "hustle" culture, where people work 12 hours a day from 9 a.m. to 9 p.m., six days a week. The 9-9-6 lifestyle was strongly championed by Jack Ma, founder of Alibaba, who once in 2019 called the 72-hour workweek a "blessing." Long workdays are not only common but "expected" of staff, despite China's labor policy mandating that employees not work more than eight hours a day.

    Poor enforcement of labor laws has led to rampant cases of overwork. Stories of people dying at their desks or suffering from depression and exhaustion are not uncommon.
     

    I wish them well.

    Pepe the Frog (also known as the "sad frog") was co-opted as an icon of "sang" culture in China, symbolizing the sad reality of modern living in China. Jade Gao/AFP via Getty Images
     
    Interesting.

    Your second link:
    "Great resignation" wave coming for companies


    Companies that made it through the pandemic in one piece now have a major new problem: more than a quarter of their employees may leave.

    What's happening: Workers have had more than a year to reconsider work-life balance or career paths, and as the world opens back up, many of them will give their two weeks' notice and make those changes they’ve been dreaming about.
    [...]
    "Hopefully we’ll see a lot more people in 2022 employed and stable because they're in jobs they actually like," she says.
     

    Who could take exception to a sentiment such as that? We would all love to be able to support ourselves by doing something we enjoy. The reality, however, is that often (and likely more often than not) is simply not practical or realistic.

    I wanted to make sure you were aware that Audacious Epigone had finally responded to the questions and concerns concerning moderation that we had recently voiced at his blog.


    @AaronB

    Your lack of auto-approval comes from somewhere else on the site the blog doesn’t have access to. You’re in the auto-approval bin here just as Dissident is.
     


    @Dissident

    The issue is how far down the list of priorities comment reviews of auto-approved commenters are on the list of things for the blog to do. It’s been duly noted and will be fixed, sorry.
     

    כל טוב

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon, @AaronB

    I was the first to brought that “lying low” sentiment up in Karlin’s open thread. It’s just the redux of Japan’s low-expectation society, with an additional but light stain of resistance to the system and the establishment. That’s the reaction to the high-pressure form of Capitalism practiced in East Asia.

    For the 2nd link, your quote put it quite well. Now wait for the inevitable high inflation + UBI…

    We are indeed moving away from the Capitalist ethic of accumulation for accumulation’s sake, which is much more fundamental than what Schwab can imagine.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    @Yellowface Anon

    Yes, YA, you were indeed the first to mention this here, and I should have given you credit.

    However, this is the first time I've seen it picked up by English language media.

    It's an important development. Our elites in the West are now trying to push the China model in a new attempt to "reframe" economic exploitation as in fact benign, and to this end they push this absurd myth that ordinary Chinese are thrilled to work crazy long hours under bad conditions, and that Xi's policies enjoys the support of over 90% of the Chinese populace, who exist on a state of harmonious rapport with their exploitative elites.

    This is at a point where support for unbridled capitalism in the West is beginning to falter, so elites are trying to rekindle enthusiasm and shore up the tottering edifice.

    It's a sophisticated campaign with messages meticulously tailored to particular groups core concerns. For instance, on Unz, there is a concerted effort to convince White Nationalists that the harsh economic conditions lower class Whites face are engineered by Jews, and that adopting a Chinese model based on racial unity between the elites and lower classes will lead to the harmonious rapport Chinese workers feel towards their elites - and presumably, American Whites will be willing to "sacrifice" for White overlords and lovingly work long hours for little pay for their elites benefit, as perhaps happened in a mythical Middle Ages.

    For the more technocratic minded, the Chinese model is held up as being more "efficient" than the messy and chaotic American model which is unwieldy and dysfunctional by providing more freedom and protections for ordinary people.

    Ron Unz, for instance - supports both Hispanic immigration and the China model, a typical elitist position adopted for self-serving reasons.

    The goal, of course, is for both China and the US to converge on a global model of elitist exploitation.

    It is good to see that this likely won't happen. I hope both China and the US extricate themselves from this ruthless model of exploitative capitalism designed to benefit the elites, and that both people's can live an ampler and more easeful life not based on the frantic pursuit of money, "efficiency", or "growth", but on enjoying the good things in life.

  159. @Mikhail
    @AltanBakshi

    The overall knowledge on that conflict is typically limited.

    https://www.eurasiareview.com/08042016-fuzzy-history-how-poland-saved-the-world-from-russia-analysis/

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    Well existence of Croats and Poles is one of the best proofs against the existence of God, without those fiends it would be highly likely that whole Slavdom would be united under Russia’s eternal loving and happy embrace, and Slavs would now have bases on moon, maybe even on Mars, but no, Polish and Croat slave mentality prefers German lords over Slavic brothers.

    • LOL: iffen
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @AltanBakshi

    That’s powerful. But it’s not like the rest of the Slavs are that eager to be united under Russian rule.

    , @Mr. Hack
    @AltanBakshi

    You mean "prefers German lords over Russian lords" don't you? BTW, which Slavs are living a better life today, the German lorded Slavs, or the Russian lorded ones, anyway?

    Oh, I forgot, most Slavic countries today left the Russian lorded camp long ago, AND AREN'T LOOKING BACK.

    Replies: @iffen, @Bashibuzuk

  160. @Yellowface Anon
    @Dissident

    I was just coping with the apparent changes in what is available and what isn't (and I have a lot of sympathies with the agrarian folks)

    Replies: @Dissident

    I was just coping with the apparent changes in what is available and what isn’t (and I have a lot of sympathies with the agrarian folks)

    Thanks.

    Incidentally, I wondered whether anyone would recognize the photo.

    These railway lines are intended for children aged 10 to 18 who want to learn more about how railways work.
    […]
    Every year, 15,000 children receive practical training on children’s railways. More than half of them later go on to complete related university degrees in order to pursue a professional railway career.

    Quite tangentially,

    [MORE]
    how much, if at all, might linguistic differences between English and Russian account for the use of the single term children to include adolescents as old as eighteen? Granted, such an inclusive usage would seem entirely consistent with several of the definitions for child found in reputable English dictionaries, both American as well as British.

    Still, does such a usage not sound awkward? Would not the greater precision and clarity of an alternative such as children and adolescents; children and teenagers..; or simply youth…, or youngsters… make for a smoother, more common, more standard usage? Does the Russian language make less of a distinction between children and adolescents than does English?

  161. @Ron Unz
    @utu


    Concealing Operation Pike was easy because it was just a plan that was never implemented. However it was known (your unawareness of it till recently is surprising)
     
    Well, until fairly recently I had never closely investigated WWII, and therefore relied upon the standard history texts and contemporary media articles, none of which ever hinted at Operation Pike. I'm not sure you can find two paragraphs on it in any English-language book published in the last 70 years. So if no one ever mentioned something so momentous as a planned 1940 Allied attack on the USSR, how was I to ever suspect its existence?

    I doubt I'm alone in that regard. I suspect that if you took a sample of upper-end well-educated Americans, say the top half of Ivy League graduates of the last 50 years, and described Operation Pike to them, 99+% would have never heard of it, and probably denounce you as a "crazy conspiracy theorist" for believing in such nonsense.

    I'd think most professional historians, especially those specializing in WWII, are at least aware of it, but perhaps treat it as a semi-forbidden subject, as McMeekin discovered when it became the main focus of the attacks on his book.

    Replies: @Coconuts

    I doubt I’m alone in that regard. I suspect that if you took a sample of upper-end well-educated Americans, say the top half of Ivy League graduates of the last 50 years, and described Operation Pike to them, 99+% would have never heard of it, and probably denounce you as a “crazy conspiracy theorist” for believing in such nonsense.

    But in general many aspects of the early period of WW2 are not well known to the wider Anglo public and have started attracting deeper interest from English language historians only in the last 20-30 years.

    If you stated that in early 1940 the French Army was considered one of, if not the most, powerful and feared land force in the world many educated Americans would probably also think you were quite crazy.

    • Replies: @Triteleia Laxa
    @Coconuts

    If you stated that early in 1988 the USSR was often seen as the most stable political entity in the world, many would you think you were completely nuts.

    People see through hindsight. This is normal and not evidence of a cover-up or really anything at all.

  162. @Coconuts
    @Ron Unz


    I doubt I’m alone in that regard. I suspect that if you took a sample of upper-end well-educated Americans, say the top half of Ivy League graduates of the last 50 years, and described Operation Pike to them, 99+% would have never heard of it, and probably denounce you as a “crazy conspiracy theorist” for believing in such nonsense.
     
    But in general many aspects of the early period of WW2 are not well known to the wider Anglo public and have started attracting deeper interest from English language historians only in the last 20-30 years.

    If you stated that in early 1940 the French Army was considered one of, if not the most, powerful and feared land force in the world many educated Americans would probably also think you were quite crazy.

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa

    If you stated that early in 1988 the USSR was often seen as the most stable political entity in the world, many would you think you were completely nuts.

    People see through hindsight. This is normal and not evidence of a cover-up or really anything at all.

  163. @Ron Unz
    @Thorfinnsson


    German planes were also illegally overflying Soviet airspace prior to 1941, and for that matter Soviet aircraft were illegally overflying German airspace.
     
    Well yes, that's because Germany was preparing to attack the Soviets and the Soviets were (probably) preparing to attack Germany. Similarly, the Allies were preparing to attack the USSR.

    A hypothetical allied bombing of the Soviet oil industry would have been the largest in world history to that time in the same way that the Ford Model T was the fastest production sedan in world history at the time of its introduction.

    If you understand the analogy, it’s a true but irrelevant or misleading statement because the absolute power of the “world’s largest strategic bombing offensive” in mid-1940 is trivial.
     
    Military hindsight is 20-20. The Allies were absolutely convinced that their strategic bombing offensive would totally annihilate the Soviet oil industry. They were mistaken.

    While the Soviet oil industry would be undamaged, such an attack could potentially have motivated the USSR to join the Axis.
     
    Exactly! The crucial point is that Operation Pike would have ensured an Allied defeat in WWII. That's why I entitled my article "How Hitler Saved the Allies."

    As I just suggested above, I think you might have a very difficult time finding even two paragraphs discussing Operation Pike in any English-language history book published in the last 70 years, with 99% of them not mentioning a word. I consider that a cover-up.

    And if you told the story to a large group of upper-end well-educated Americans, 99+% would probably regard you as a nut for believing in a "crazy conspiracy theory." Sounds like a very successful cover-up to me.

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa, @Thorfinnsson

    Russia and NATO are often illegally flying over each other, but they clearly have no intention for an actual war.

    Please consider that while you can read historical evidence, you lack a lot of necessary expertise in evaluating it. You aren’t to know how ordinary it is for militaries to plan everything, and, yes, conduct fly-overs to flesh out those plans; but you should at least understand that there is a lot you don’t know.

    • Agree: Mikhail
    • Replies: @silviosilver
    @Triteleia Laxa

    Still, you have to give him credit: he crams an impressive amount of specious reasoning into his effort posts.

    Replies: @iffen, @Triteleia Laxa

  164. @AltanBakshi
    @Mikhail

    Well existence of Croats and Poles is one of the best proofs against the existence of God, without those fiends it would be highly likely that whole Slavdom would be united under Russia's eternal loving and happy embrace, and Slavs would now have bases on moon, maybe even on Mars, but no, Polish and Croat slave mentality prefers German lords over Slavic brothers.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Mr. Hack

    That’s powerful. But it’s not like the rest of the Slavs are that eager to be united under Russian rule.

  165. @Ron Unz
    @Thorfinnsson


    German planes were also illegally overflying Soviet airspace prior to 1941, and for that matter Soviet aircraft were illegally overflying German airspace.
     
    Well yes, that's because Germany was preparing to attack the Soviets and the Soviets were (probably) preparing to attack Germany. Similarly, the Allies were preparing to attack the USSR.

    A hypothetical allied bombing of the Soviet oil industry would have been the largest in world history to that time in the same way that the Ford Model T was the fastest production sedan in world history at the time of its introduction.

    If you understand the analogy, it’s a true but irrelevant or misleading statement because the absolute power of the “world’s largest strategic bombing offensive” in mid-1940 is trivial.
     
    Military hindsight is 20-20. The Allies were absolutely convinced that their strategic bombing offensive would totally annihilate the Soviet oil industry. They were mistaken.

    While the Soviet oil industry would be undamaged, such an attack could potentially have motivated the USSR to join the Axis.
     
    Exactly! The crucial point is that Operation Pike would have ensured an Allied defeat in WWII. That's why I entitled my article "How Hitler Saved the Allies."

    As I just suggested above, I think you might have a very difficult time finding even two paragraphs discussing Operation Pike in any English-language history book published in the last 70 years, with 99% of them not mentioning a word. I consider that a cover-up.

    And if you told the story to a large group of upper-end well-educated Americans, 99+% would probably regard you as a nut for believing in a "crazy conspiracy theory." Sounds like a very successful cover-up to me.

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa, @Thorfinnsson

    So, both of us agree that Operation Pike was a real operational plan. I’m a little more skeptical that it would have been launched than you are, given the skepticism of the British Cabinet as well as the absence of any “strategic” formations in the French Air Force. But it’s certainly possible. The British after all launched ships to mine Narvik before the Germans launched their invasion of Norway for instance.

    The real issue is that you think this was covered up because it’s somehow embarrassing. Would you mind sharing why you think this is embarrassing? My understanding of you is that you think it’s politically embarrassing for some reason. What is the reason for the coverup?

    My experience from many years of reading WW2 histories is that Operation Pike comes up about as occasionally as other operations never carried out such as Operation Catherine and Operation Tannenbaum. The major exceptions to this are Sealion and Operation Downfall. I decided to check this on Google Ngram, which you can use yourself. Be warned that the tool is case sensitive.

    I selected Operations Felix, Tannenbaum, Pike, and Catherine. Two German, and two allied. Here are the results: https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Operation+Pike%2COperation+Catherine%2COperation+Felix%2COperation+Tannenbaum&year_start=1940&year_end=2019&corpus=26&smoothing=3&direct_url=t1%3B%2COperation%20Pike%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2COperation%20Catherine%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2COperation%20Felix%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2COperation%20Tannenbaum%3B%2Cc0

    Felix dominates, but all have been written about at a low level since the end of the war. Pike has picked up a bit in popularity since the end of the 20th century.

    As for the possible consequences of Operation Pike, it may very well have motivated the USSR to join the Axis. That’s a very interesting alternate history, but it belongs to fiction and is in the realm of Harry Turtledove and Stuart Slade.

    Lastly, there’s the conjecture that Operation Pike would be rejected as a conspiracy theory by upper income, well-educated Americans. Maybe so, since they’re trained to reject anything not presented by the media as a conspiracy theory. But I think they’d be more likely to accept the reality of Operation Pike than, say, the evidence that FDR was involved in fomenting the European war.

    • Agree: iffen
    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    @Thorfinnsson


    I selected Operations Felix, Tannenbaum, Pike, and Catherine. Two German, and two allied. Here are the results:
     
    I would argue that an all-out Allied strategic bombing attack against the neutral USSR in early 1940 is *vastly* more significant than those other examples you give, and yet according to the NGram chart, it's coverage was almost non-existent until a couple of years before the publication of Osborn's landmark 2000 monograph based on his exhaustive archival research. So for roughly 50 years it was almost entirely excluded from all English language books, usually receiving perhaps 1/50th the discussion of Operation Felix, something very minor by comparison.

    As I said, I think you'd have a difficult time locating even two paragraphs in any one of the tens of thousands of WWII books published until the last few years. Chris Bellamy's authoritative 800 page volume on Soviet Russia in WWII provides not a single hint, and it appeared in 2007, years after the Osborn monograph. I've looked at other, equally weighty volumes with a similar focus and discovered the same total absence. Given the ferocious attacks that McMeekin told me he endured for discussing it, the silence of these other writers is hardly mysterious.

    Of course it was a cover-up, the facts are obvious. For exactly similar reasons, McMeekin only very briefly mentioned Suvorov once in his book, and David Irving's name is often completely excluded from WWII books very closely connected with his own work.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

  166. Has this Sabaton ‘Defense of Moscow’ video been mentioned before? I haven’t read comment threads in a while. I’m guessing that they are trying to release songs for Hearts of Iron IV. It’s appropriate especially because WW2 was mentioned above.

  167. @Thorfinnsson
    @Ron Unz

    So, both of us agree that Operation Pike was a real operational plan. I'm a little more skeptical that it would have been launched than you are, given the skepticism of the British Cabinet as well as the absence of any "strategic" formations in the French Air Force. But it's certainly possible. The British after all launched ships to mine Narvik before the Germans launched their invasion of Norway for instance.

    The real issue is that you think this was covered up because it's somehow embarrassing. Would you mind sharing why you think this is embarrassing? My understanding of you is that you think it's politically embarrassing for some reason. What is the reason for the coverup?

    My experience from many years of reading WW2 histories is that Operation Pike comes up about as occasionally as other operations never carried out such as Operation Catherine and Operation Tannenbaum. The major exceptions to this are Sealion and Operation Downfall. I decided to check this on Google Ngram, which you can use yourself. Be warned that the tool is case sensitive.

    I selected Operations Felix, Tannenbaum, Pike, and Catherine. Two German, and two allied. Here are the results: https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Operation+Pike%2COperation+Catherine%2COperation+Felix%2COperation+Tannenbaum&year_start=1940&year_end=2019&corpus=26&smoothing=3&direct_url=t1%3B%2COperation%20Pike%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2COperation%20Catherine%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2COperation%20Felix%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2COperation%20Tannenbaum%3B%2Cc0

    Felix dominates, but all have been written about at a low level since the end of the war. Pike has picked up a bit in popularity since the end of the 20th century.

    As for the possible consequences of Operation Pike, it may very well have motivated the USSR to join the Axis. That's a very interesting alternate history, but it belongs to fiction and is in the realm of Harry Turtledove and Stuart Slade.

    Lastly, there's the conjecture that Operation Pike would be rejected as a conspiracy theory by upper income, well-educated Americans. Maybe so, since they're trained to reject anything not presented by the media as a conspiracy theory. But I think they'd be more likely to accept the reality of Operation Pike than, say, the evidence that FDR was involved in fomenting the European war.

    Replies: @Ron Unz

    I selected Operations Felix, Tannenbaum, Pike, and Catherine. Two German, and two allied. Here are the results:

    I would argue that an all-out Allied strategic bombing attack against the neutral USSR in early 1940 is *vastly* more significant than those other examples you give, and yet according to the NGram chart, it’s coverage was almost non-existent until a couple of years before the publication of Osborn’s landmark 2000 monograph based on his exhaustive archival research. So for roughly 50 years it was almost entirely excluded from all English language books, usually receiving perhaps 1/50th the discussion of Operation Felix, something very minor by comparison.

    As I said, I think you’d have a difficult time locating even two paragraphs in any one of the tens of thousands of WWII books published until the last few years. Chris Bellamy’s authoritative 800 page volume on Soviet Russia in WWII provides not a single hint, and it appeared in 2007, years after the Osborn monograph. I’ve looked at other, equally weighty volumes with a similar focus and discovered the same total absence. Given the ferocious attacks that McMeekin told me he endured for discussing it, the silence of these other writers is hardly mysterious.

    Of course it was a cover-up, the facts are obvious. For exactly similar reasons, McMeekin only very briefly mentioned Suvorov once in his book, and David Irving’s name is often completely excluded from WWII books very closely connected with his own work.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @Ron Unz

    https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Kantokuen%2COperation+Pike&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=26&smoothing=3&direct_url=t1%3B%2CKantokuen%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2COperation%20Pike%3B%2Cc0#t1;,Kantokuen;,c0;.t1;,Operation%20Pike;,c0

    Here's a graph comparing Operation Pike with Kantokuen, a projected Japanese assault on the Soviet Union. Perhaps you rate the significance of this as much higher than the previous examples.

    Is Kantokuen being covered up?

    You state that "of course" there was a cover-up, and that the facts are "obvious". I can't agree with that, and the existence of other cover-ups (such as the 21st century suppression of David Irving) does not indicate Operation Pike has been covered up.

    My previous question to you was perhaps overlooked. What exactly do you think is so embarrassing about Operation Pike? What is the incentive for covering it up?

    Replies: @Ron Unz

  168. @Ron Unz
    @Thorfinnsson


    I selected Operations Felix, Tannenbaum, Pike, and Catherine. Two German, and two allied. Here are the results:
     
    I would argue that an all-out Allied strategic bombing attack against the neutral USSR in early 1940 is *vastly* more significant than those other examples you give, and yet according to the NGram chart, it's coverage was almost non-existent until a couple of years before the publication of Osborn's landmark 2000 monograph based on his exhaustive archival research. So for roughly 50 years it was almost entirely excluded from all English language books, usually receiving perhaps 1/50th the discussion of Operation Felix, something very minor by comparison.

    As I said, I think you'd have a difficult time locating even two paragraphs in any one of the tens of thousands of WWII books published until the last few years. Chris Bellamy's authoritative 800 page volume on Soviet Russia in WWII provides not a single hint, and it appeared in 2007, years after the Osborn monograph. I've looked at other, equally weighty volumes with a similar focus and discovered the same total absence. Given the ferocious attacks that McMeekin told me he endured for discussing it, the silence of these other writers is hardly mysterious.

    Of course it was a cover-up, the facts are obvious. For exactly similar reasons, McMeekin only very briefly mentioned Suvorov once in his book, and David Irving's name is often completely excluded from WWII books very closely connected with his own work.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Kantokuen%2COperation+Pike&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=26&smoothing=3&direct_url=t1%3B%2CKantokuen%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2COperation%20Pike%3B%2Cc0#t1;,Kantokuen;,c0;.t1;,Operation%20Pike;,c0

    Here’s a graph comparing Operation Pike with Kantokuen, a projected Japanese assault on the Soviet Union. Perhaps you rate the significance of this as much higher than the previous examples.

    Is Kantokuen being covered up?

    You state that “of course” there was a cover-up, and that the facts are “obvious”. I can’t agree with that, and the existence of other cover-ups (such as the 21st century suppression of David Irving) does not indicate Operation Pike has been covered up.

    My previous question to you was perhaps overlooked. What exactly do you think is so embarrassing about Operation Pike? What is the incentive for covering it up?

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    @Thorfinnsson


    Here’s a graph comparing Operation Pike with Kantokuen, a projected Japanese assault on the Soviet Union. Perhaps you rate the significance of this as much higher than the previous examples.

    Is Kantokuen being covered up?
     
    I doubt Americans would be extremely interested in a hypothetical Japanese attack on the USSR, compared with a fully planned and almost implemented Allied attack against that same country in 1940. I suspect that the former might get more attention from Japanese historians.

    Regarding coverups in the American media and historiography, the number and magnitude are so enormous as to almost seem ridiculous. As just one example, if you haven't already done so, you might want to read one of my many articles on the subject from a couple of years ago:

    https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-john-mccain-jeffrey-epstein-and-pizzagate/

    And with regard to the original topics of my comments, it's quite remarkable that Suvorov became probably the world's best-selling military historian soon after his original book appeared in English, but it took two decades until his work became available again in the Anglosphere. Since his views were almost never mentioned in any English-language publication, only an infinitesimal number of ordinary Americans ever became aware of it.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

  169. @Thorfinnsson
    @Ron Unz

    https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=Kantokuen%2COperation+Pike&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=26&smoothing=3&direct_url=t1%3B%2CKantokuen%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2COperation%20Pike%3B%2Cc0#t1;,Kantokuen;,c0;.t1;,Operation%20Pike;,c0

    Here's a graph comparing Operation Pike with Kantokuen, a projected Japanese assault on the Soviet Union. Perhaps you rate the significance of this as much higher than the previous examples.

    Is Kantokuen being covered up?

    You state that "of course" there was a cover-up, and that the facts are "obvious". I can't agree with that, and the existence of other cover-ups (such as the 21st century suppression of David Irving) does not indicate Operation Pike has been covered up.

    My previous question to you was perhaps overlooked. What exactly do you think is so embarrassing about Operation Pike? What is the incentive for covering it up?

    Replies: @Ron Unz

    Here’s a graph comparing Operation Pike with Kantokuen, a projected Japanese assault on the Soviet Union. Perhaps you rate the significance of this as much higher than the previous examples.

    Is Kantokuen being covered up?

    I doubt Americans would be extremely interested in a hypothetical Japanese attack on the USSR, compared with a fully planned and almost implemented Allied attack against that same country in 1940. I suspect that the former might get more attention from Japanese historians.

    Regarding coverups in the American media and historiography, the number and magnitude are so enormous as to almost seem ridiculous. As just one example, if you haven’t already done so, you might want to read one of my many articles on the subject from a couple of years ago:

    https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-john-mccain-jeffrey-epstein-and-pizzagate/

    And with regard to the original topics of my comments, it’s quite remarkable that Suvorov became probably the world’s best-selling military historian soon after his original book appeared in English, but it took two decades until his work became available again in the Anglosphere. Since his views were almost never mentioned in any English-language publication, only an infinitesimal number of ordinary Americans ever became aware of it.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @Ron Unz

    I'm not sure that it's fair to describe Kantokuen as a "hypothetical" and then in the same sentence refer to Operation Pike as "fully planned and almost implemented".

    I haven't read the monograph you refer to, so perhaps there's more information there I'm not privy to, but to my knowledge the most detailed "plan" for Operation Pike was a detailed study by British Air Ministry from April, 1940.

    Forces were never actually sent to Middle Eastern bases for the proposed operation.

    Meanwhile the Japanese, by dint of geography, had millions of troops in Manchuria and Korea on the Soviet border. Japan's Tripartite allies were also engaged in a land campaign in the USSR at the time. Additionally, significant factions in the Japanese elite had long harbored aggressive designs on the Soviet Union and there had been skirmishes just two years before.

    A Japanese invasion of the USSR in the summer of 1941 could have tipped the scales in favor of the Axis, so perhaps you could publish a successor piece titled How Hirohito Saved the Allies.

    It's not wrong to describe the operation as hypothetical, because it was, but to suggest Operation Pike was more likely to take place is misleading.

    I've been reading and enjoying your essays for many years now. I do not always agree with your conclusions (though I frequently do), but they are always well-written, interesting, and thought-provoking.

    As for Suvorov, maybe he was suppressed. His work is poor, but poor work is no barrier to success--just look at the late Stephen Ambrose. There exists substantial pressure to maintain the narrative that Hitler was both uniquely evil and uniquely responsible for World War 2. I certainly recall Pat Buchanan's book Churchill, Hitler, and the Unnecessary War was highly controversial. Is it your contention that the existence of Operation Pike undermines popular anti-Hitlerism and was covered up for that reason?

    Replies: @Ron Unz

  170. @Triteleia Laxa
    @Ron Unz

    Russia and NATO are often illegally flying over each other, but they clearly have no intention for an actual war.

    Please consider that while you can read historical evidence, you lack a lot of necessary expertise in evaluating it. You aren't to know how ordinary it is for militaries to plan everything, and, yes, conduct fly-overs to flesh out those plans; but you should at least understand that there is a lot you don't know.

    Replies: @silviosilver

    Still, you have to give him credit: he crams an impressive amount of specious reasoning into his effort posts.

    • Replies: @iffen
    @silviosilver

    It's a "gift."

    , @Triteleia Laxa
    @silviosilver

    Yes, and I notice that the language always heats up in areas unchallenged.

    E.g

    A plan, among multitudes, with some flyovers, transforms, in the absence of opposition, but with no evidence, to "a fully planned and almost implemented Allied attack".

    Another foible is trying to make his claims ordinary by tying them to all of the extraordinary claims of the American Pravda series. As if a hundred extraordinary claims, weakly linked together, are therefore more substantial - like junk mortgages in 2008. This is necessary when only circumstantial evidence is presented, or only NINJA loans can be made.

    I don't doubt his good faith or his intelligence, but I also don't think "egotistical" is unfair as a description.

  171. @silviosilver
    @Triteleia Laxa

    Still, you have to give him credit: he crams an impressive amount of specious reasoning into his effort posts.

    Replies: @iffen, @Triteleia Laxa

    It’s a “gift.”

  172. Viktor Suvorov is a traitor and defector, such people are not trustworthy and deserve nothing else than…

  173. @silviosilver
    @Triteleia Laxa

    Still, you have to give him credit: he crams an impressive amount of specious reasoning into his effort posts.

    Replies: @iffen, @Triteleia Laxa

    Yes, and I notice that the language always heats up in areas unchallenged.

    E.g

    A plan, among multitudes, with some flyovers, transforms, in the absence of opposition, but with no evidence, to “a fully planned and almost implemented Allied attack”.

    Another foible is trying to make his claims ordinary by tying them to all of the extraordinary claims of the American Pravda series. As if a hundred extraordinary claims, weakly linked together, are therefore more substantial – like junk mortgages in 2008. This is necessary when only circumstantial evidence is presented, or only NINJA loans can be made.

    I don’t doubt his good faith or his intelligence, but I also don’t think “egotistical” is unfair as a description.

  174. mal says:

    Stealing from Karlins’ twitter, BNE has a decent article on tool industry in Russia.

    https://www.intellinews.com/long-read-russia-s-sanctions-soft-underbelly-precision-machine-tools-213024/?source=russia

    It’s a good article as far as history goes, but there has been some significant improvement in Russian manufacturing business since 2014-2017.

    Also, this:

    In the late 2010s, Russia’s machine tool industry accounted for 0.02% of GDP. This is a low figure compared to some of the leading producing countries: China (0.2%), Japan (0.33%) and Germany (0.37%).

    Advanced manufacturing and precision machinery are a very small fraction of overall economic activity even in the leading producer countries. The biggest challenge is to create guaranteed market for the product so that manufacturers don’t go bankrupt. Once that’s done, human and capital investment is rather trivial for any major economy.

  175. @Dissident
    @AaronB

    Your first link:
    More and more Chinese 20-somethings are rejecting the rat race and 'lying flat' after watching their friends work themselves to death


    Neijuan goes hand in hand with China's "9-9-6" culture. The term refers to China's "hustle" culture, where people work 12 hours a day from 9 a.m. to 9 p.m., six days a week. The 9-9-6 lifestyle was strongly championed by Jack Ma, founder of Alibaba, who once in 2019 called the 72-hour workweek a "blessing." Long workdays are not only common but "expected" of staff, despite China's labor policy mandating that employees not work more than eight hours a day.

    Poor enforcement of labor laws has led to rampant cases of overwork. Stories of people dying at their desks or suffering from depression and exhaustion are not uncommon.
     

    I wish them well.

    Pepe the Frog (also known as the "sad frog") was co-opted as an icon of "sang" culture in China, symbolizing the sad reality of modern living in China. Jade Gao/AFP via Getty Images
     
    Interesting.

    Your second link:
    "Great resignation" wave coming for companies


    Companies that made it through the pandemic in one piece now have a major new problem: more than a quarter of their employees may leave.

    What's happening: Workers have had more than a year to reconsider work-life balance or career paths, and as the world opens back up, many of them will give their two weeks' notice and make those changes they’ve been dreaming about.
    [...]
    "Hopefully we’ll see a lot more people in 2022 employed and stable because they're in jobs they actually like," she says.
     

    Who could take exception to a sentiment such as that? We would all love to be able to support ourselves by doing something we enjoy. The reality, however, is that often (and likely more often than not) is simply not practical or realistic.

    I wanted to make sure you were aware that Audacious Epigone had finally responded to the questions and concerns concerning moderation that we had recently voiced at his blog.


    @AaronB

    Your lack of auto-approval comes from somewhere else on the site the blog doesn’t have access to. You’re in the auto-approval bin here just as Dissident is.
     


    @Dissident

    The issue is how far down the list of priorities comment reviews of auto-approved commenters are on the list of things for the blog to do. It’s been duly noted and will be fixed, sorry.
     

    כל טוב

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon, @AaronB

    Who could take exception to a sentiment such as that? We would all love to be able to support ourselves by doing something we enjoy. The reality, however, is that often (and likely more often than not) is simply not practical or realistic.

    Yes, I agree that people will always have to work jobs that are intrinsically unappealing. What I’m objecting to is an economic climate that allows bosses to make jobs unnecessarily shitty, by paying low wages and being abusive and tyrannical on the assumption that workers have no option but to put up with it.

    The economic climate changing to give more power to workers is a positive development.

    Of course, it could go too far in the opposite direction and workers with too much power can hold employers hostage and cause economic stagnation.

    But right now, the problem in America is that capitalism is too ruthless.

    Beyond that relatively moderate position, anthropologist David Grabber has convincingly shown – to me, at any rate, and perhaps a few others 🙂 – that the majority of jobs in a modern economy are “bullshit”, and create solely out of our elites fear that providing people with a sense of economic security that will make them less easy to exploit.

    Graeber argues that in fact, we have already lived through a “silent” automation revolution that has rendered much work for many people obsolete, but our elites have for various philosophical and self serving pragmatic reasons chosen to hide this fact.

    In this context, the increasing celebration of the ruthless Chinese model – on the part of both right and left, even though for ostensibly different reasons – becomes particularly insidious.

    I wanted to make sure you were aware that Audacious Epigone had finally responded to the questions and concerns concerning moderation that we had recently voiced at his blog.

    Thank you, I did not see this! I had a strong suspicion that Ron Unz was behind it (lol :)), but I thought I had asked AE to clarify in the past and he ignored my question, which made me think perhaps not. Perhaps I misremembered.

    Anyways, thanks for your efforts in this regard!

    • Thanks: Dissident
  176. @Yellowface Anon
    @Dissident

    I was the first to brought that "lying low" sentiment up in Karlin's open thread. It's just the redux of Japan's low-expectation society, with an additional but light stain of resistance to the system and the establishment. That's the reaction to the high-pressure form of Capitalism practiced in East Asia.

    For the 2nd link, your quote put it quite well. Now wait for the inevitable high inflation + UBI...

    We are indeed moving away from the Capitalist ethic of accumulation for accumulation's sake, which is much more fundamental than what Schwab can imagine.

    Replies: @AaronB

    Yes, YA, you were indeed the first to mention this here, and I should have given you credit.

    However, this is the first time I’ve seen it picked up by English language media.

    It’s an important development. Our elites in the West are now trying to push the China model in a new attempt to “reframe” economic exploitation as in fact benign, and to this end they push this absurd myth that ordinary Chinese are thrilled to work crazy long hours under bad conditions, and that Xi’s policies enjoys the support of over 90% of the Chinese populace, who exist on a state of harmonious rapport with their exploitative elites.

    This is at a point where support for unbridled capitalism in the West is beginning to falter, so elites are trying to rekindle enthusiasm and shore up the tottering edifice.

    It’s a sophisticated campaign with messages meticulously tailored to particular groups core concerns. For instance, on Unz, there is a concerted effort to convince White Nationalists that the harsh economic conditions lower class Whites face are engineered by Jews, and that adopting a Chinese model based on racial unity between the elites and lower classes will lead to the harmonious rapport Chinese workers feel towards their elites – and presumably, American Whites will be willing to “sacrifice” for White overlords and lovingly work long hours for little pay for their elites benefit, as perhaps happened in a mythical Middle Ages.

    For the more technocratic minded, the Chinese model is held up as being more “efficient” than the messy and chaotic American model which is unwieldy and dysfunctional by providing more freedom and protections for ordinary people.

    Ron Unz, for instance – supports both Hispanic immigration and the China model, a typical elitist position adopted for self-serving reasons.

    The goal, of course, is for both China and the US to converge on a global model of elitist exploitation.

    It is good to see that this likely won’t happen. I hope both China and the US extricate themselves from this ruthless model of exploitative capitalism designed to benefit the elites, and that both people’s can live an ampler and more easeful life not based on the frantic pursuit of money, “efficiency”, or “growth”, but on enjoying the good things in life.

  177. @AaronB
    I knew the Chinese had it in them :) A national movement of Bartleby the Scriveners. One must remember this is the nation that gave birth to Taoism. Bravo China!

    https://www.insider.com/disenchanted-chinese-youth-join-a-mass-movement-to-lie-flat-2021-6

    And more good news from America -

    https://www.axios.com/resignations-companies-e279fcfc-c8e7-4955-8a9b-47562490ee55.html

    Is the world changing?

    Replies: @Dissident, @Morton's toes

    There was a massive bait and switch performed on the American workers in my cohort.

    We were recruited into competing in a rat-race. There would be a bunch of losers; but there would be a few winners.

    Turns out it was sysyphus pushing boulders up mountains and none of us were going to win anything. Our head would stay above water and we wouldn’t drown if lucky. Meanwhile 100% of our life’s energy was appropriated.

    Screw that!

    I have adopted Dave Ramsey’s philosophy. Debt free baby. Mortgage. Look it up.

    Old French mort gage (“death pledge”)

    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/mortgage

    • Agree: AaronB, Mr. Hack
  178. @AltanBakshi
    @Mikhail

    Finland had bad relations with Germany before 1940, and was very Western, not Germany, oriented, as Franco-British plans for help during the Winter War show us, anyway Stalin's demands were seen too excessive in Finland, and Stalin by his policy choices and aggression forced Finland into German camp little before operation Barbarossa.

    Remember that Finns had two separate wars against USSR, first defensive war, alone against Soviet aggression, and second war with Germans as allies in invasion of USSR.

    Replies: @Mikhail

    Finland had bad relations with Germany before 1940, and was very Western, not Germany, oriented, as Franco-British plans for help during the Winter War show us, anyway Stalin’s demands were seen too excessive in Finland, and Stalin by his policy choices and aggression forced Finland into German camp little before operation Barbarossa.

    Germany at the time didn’t want to upset the idea of a nonaggression pact with the USSR, which was viewed by Berlin as one of temporary convenience.

    In the greater scheme of things, it could be reasonably deduced at the time that Finland would support Germany in a Nazi-Soviet war situation.

    Remember that Finns had two separate wars against USSR, first defensive war, alone against Soviet aggression, and second war with Germans as allies in invasion of USSR.

    As I mentioned further up this thread, the USSR offered a land swap which Finland (by right) refused. The Soviet reasoning had to do with a hypothetical Soviet-Nazi war, with Finland as a Nazi ally.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Mikhail


    In the greater scheme of things, it could be reasonably deduced at the time that Finland would support Germany in a Nazi-Soviet war situation.
     
    Finland had no motive to join German war efforts before losing Karelia to USSR in the Winter War, Finnish irredentists were a small minority, and largest parties were very democratically minded Social Democrats and Agrarian League. Mildly put Nordic SocDems were not known for their Nazi sympathies. Winter War forced Finland to become Germany's ally. I know that Stalin feared that Finland would be used for invasion of Russia's northern flank, but Stalin's paranoia made it reality.

    Replies: @Mikhail, @Jaakko Raipala

  179. @Mitleser
    @Not Raul

    This Red Scare did not seem to have lasted long, though.

    https://twitter.com/CandideIII/status/1399827111548919808

    Replies: @Not Raul

    The one American engineer who worked in the USSR whom I can think of off of the top of my head is the father of the Koch brothers, who helped develop the USSR’s petrochemical industry under Stalin. He later claimed to be anti-Communist; but that didn’t stop him from cashing their checks.

    This doesn’t take anything away from the Red Scare, which focused mainly on domestic left wing groups. The fact that the father of the Koch brothers made so much money in the USSR is cold comfort to the IWW, and other left wing groups who were harassed, and persecuted by law enforcement agencies. It certainly didn’t help Eugene Debs.

  180. @Mikhail
    @AltanBakshi


    Finland had bad relations with Germany before 1940, and was very Western, not Germany, oriented, as Franco-British plans for help during the Winter War show us, anyway Stalin’s demands were seen too excessive in Finland, and Stalin by his policy choices and aggression forced Finland into German camp little before operation Barbarossa.
     
    Germany at the time didn't want to upset the idea of a nonaggression pact with the USSR, which was viewed by Berlin as one of temporary convenience.

    In the greater scheme of things, it could be reasonably deduced at the time that Finland would support Germany in a Nazi-Soviet war situation.

    Remember that Finns had two separate wars against USSR, first defensive war, alone against Soviet aggression, and second war with Germans as allies in invasion of USSR.
     
    As I mentioned further up this thread, the USSR offered a land swap which Finland (by right) refused. The Soviet reasoning had to do with a hypothetical Soviet-Nazi war, with Finland as a Nazi ally.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    In the greater scheme of things, it could be reasonably deduced at the time that Finland would support Germany in a Nazi-Soviet war situation.

    Finland had no motive to join German war efforts before losing Karelia to USSR in the Winter War, Finnish irredentists were a small minority, and largest parties were very democratically minded Social Democrats and Agrarian League. Mildly put Nordic SocDems were not known for their Nazi sympathies. Winter War forced Finland to become Germany’s ally. I know that Stalin feared that Finland would be used for invasion of Russia’s northern flank, but Stalin’s paranoia made it reality.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @AltanBakshi

    There was a German-Finnish WW I/Russian Revolution era connection, in conjunction with Mannerheim having some clout before the aforementioned Winter War.

    Replies: @Jaakko Raipala

    , @Jaakko Raipala
    @AltanBakshi

    Hah. "Nordic Social Democrats" were in many ways very close to Nazis politically. The biggest difference is philo-Semitism vs. anti-Semitism. But then, in Finland Jews would happily fight for Operation Barbarossa under the swastika banner so...

    The tripartite economic system is exactly the same as under fascism with the difference that it's not enforced by brownshirts because you don't actually need brownshirt enforcement when you have jantelaw consensus conformism.

    Then there was the same eugenics and race biology. Völkischness is there with the folk-home ideology - difference was that it tended to focus on keeping the country as the folk-home that it already was instead of merging with World War I revanchism and the need to conquer more. You could say that parliamentarism is a big difference to Nazi Germany but I personally don't think so as I don't consider parliaments more than a cosmetic thing.

    Who's the most famous "Nordic Social Democrat"? Must be Olof Palme. Did you know that the Palme family was already prominent in 1918 and they were a key force organizing the Swedish volunteers in the Finnish Civil War? Those guys who showed up here marching under the swastika banner, supposedly on the White side but often doing something entirely different than what they were supposed to do (ie. lots of atrocities and backstabbing)? Olof Palme actually died in the Finnish Civil War... an uncle of the famous one.

  181. @AltanBakshi
    @Mikhail


    In the greater scheme of things, it could be reasonably deduced at the time that Finland would support Germany in a Nazi-Soviet war situation.
     
    Finland had no motive to join German war efforts before losing Karelia to USSR in the Winter War, Finnish irredentists were a small minority, and largest parties were very democratically minded Social Democrats and Agrarian League. Mildly put Nordic SocDems were not known for their Nazi sympathies. Winter War forced Finland to become Germany's ally. I know that Stalin feared that Finland would be used for invasion of Russia's northern flank, but Stalin's paranoia made it reality.

    Replies: @Mikhail, @Jaakko Raipala

    There was a German-Finnish WW I/Russian Revolution era connection, in conjunction with Mannerheim having some clout before the aforementioned Winter War.

    • Agree: AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @Jaakko Raipala
    @Mikhail

    But Mannerheim didn't have political clout before the Winter War which is the whole problem. It would be entirely reasonable to expect Finland to have pro-German sympathies based on decades of pro-German sentiment and pro-German World War I collaboration by almost the entire political and cultural elite but it would be ridiculous to expect any based on any assumed clout by Carl Gustav Mannerheim who at that point was over 70 years old with a lifelong career as an anti-German influence.

    This was especially visible during the revolution when he fought a series of bitter power struggles against Germany and its puppets in Finnish politics, only to lose all of them and end up having to resign from the Finnish White Army when it was taken over by the Germans. Stalin of course closely followed all of that and he could see that Finland was close to Germany ever since 1918 - not because Mannerheim was winning clout but because kept losing.

    Mannerheim wanted to take the territorial exchange (actually he had already tried to make that happen during the Civil War with Yudenich). The government rejected that advice. After WWII Stalin demanded show trials for those members of government who he blamed the most while giving Mannerheim immunity. The man that Stalin seemingly blamed the most was the de facto leader of Finnish Social Democrats since 1918, Väinö Tanner, who was of course found to be a "social fascist".

    Many Finnish Social Democrats were always pro-German which wasn't a problem for Bolsheviks before the revolution when they were all eager to trash the Tsar's war against Germany but it became a problem in 1918 when the Germans invaded and leftists had to choose between the Finnish Red Army and the Germans. Tanner and many others chose to collaborate with the Germans and it worked out very well for them, they got Germany to destroy the White movement in Finland, their pro-Bolshevik rivals in the left were destroyed and friends of Germany got a huge career boost in politics.

    (That was Stalin, though. IMO the biggest problem was and is that much of the elite that funds politics is ethnic Swedish and German and most of them are going to side with Germany for ethnic and cultural reasons regardless of whether it's Nazi, monarchist or SJW. One Mannerheim can't convince them to change.)

  182. @Ron Unz
    @Thorfinnsson


    Here’s a graph comparing Operation Pike with Kantokuen, a projected Japanese assault on the Soviet Union. Perhaps you rate the significance of this as much higher than the previous examples.

    Is Kantokuen being covered up?
     
    I doubt Americans would be extremely interested in a hypothetical Japanese attack on the USSR, compared with a fully planned and almost implemented Allied attack against that same country in 1940. I suspect that the former might get more attention from Japanese historians.

    Regarding coverups in the American media and historiography, the number and magnitude are so enormous as to almost seem ridiculous. As just one example, if you haven't already done so, you might want to read one of my many articles on the subject from a couple of years ago:

    https://www.unz.com/runz/american-pravda-john-mccain-jeffrey-epstein-and-pizzagate/

    And with regard to the original topics of my comments, it's quite remarkable that Suvorov became probably the world's best-selling military historian soon after his original book appeared in English, but it took two decades until his work became available again in the Anglosphere. Since his views were almost never mentioned in any English-language publication, only an infinitesimal number of ordinary Americans ever became aware of it.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    I’m not sure that it’s fair to describe Kantokuen as a “hypothetical” and then in the same sentence refer to Operation Pike as “fully planned and almost implemented”.

    I haven’t read the monograph you refer to, so perhaps there’s more information there I’m not privy to, but to my knowledge the most detailed “plan” for Operation Pike was a detailed study by British Air Ministry from April, 1940.

    Forces were never actually sent to Middle Eastern bases for the proposed operation.

    Meanwhile the Japanese, by dint of geography, had millions of troops in Manchuria and Korea on the Soviet border. Japan’s Tripartite allies were also engaged in a land campaign in the USSR at the time. Additionally, significant factions in the Japanese elite had long harbored aggressive designs on the Soviet Union and there had been skirmishes just two years before.

    A Japanese invasion of the USSR in the summer of 1941 could have tipped the scales in favor of the Axis, so perhaps you could publish a successor piece titled How Hirohito Saved the Allies.

    It’s not wrong to describe the operation as hypothetical, because it was, but to suggest Operation Pike was more likely to take place is misleading.

    I’ve been reading and enjoying your essays for many years now. I do not always agree with your conclusions (though I frequently do), but they are always well-written, interesting, and thought-provoking.

    As for Suvorov, maybe he was suppressed. His work is poor, but poor work is no barrier to success–just look at the late Stephen Ambrose. There exists substantial pressure to maintain the narrative that Hitler was both uniquely evil and uniquely responsible for World War 2. I certainly recall Pat Buchanan’s book Churchill, Hitler, and the Unnecessary War was highly controversial. Is it your contention that the existence of Operation Pike undermines popular anti-Hitlerism and was covered up for that reason?

    • Agree: AltanBakshi
    • LOL: iffen
    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    @Thorfinnsson


    A Japanese invasion of the USSR in the summer of 1941 could have tipped the scales in favor of the Axis...
     
    I think most standard history books usually discuss the internal conflicts within the Japanese military and political leadership between those who wanted to strike north against the Soviets and those who wanted to strike south against the Western powers. From what I recall, a top priority of Soviet agents in both Japan and America was to help redirect the Japanese southward, and they succeeded. McMeekin's book discusses this in considerable detail.

    So although the term "Kantokuen" is quite uncommon, the idea is widely known. I'd certainly read about it dozens of times over the years, while until you mentioned the Japanese name for the possible operation I don't think I'd ever seen it. Meanwhile, the notion of an early 1940 Allied attack on the Soviets was been almost totally removed from all Anglophone historiography for two or three generations, an entirely different situation.

    As for Suvorov, maybe he was suppressed. His work is poor...
     
    Stylistically, perhaps. On the other hand, his work was absolutely revolutionary and seminal, and it completely overturned the established narrative of World War II, while McMeekin's exhaustive archival research has now confirmed that Suvorov was essentially correct. Meanwhile, Suvorov's books sold many millions of copies, and established him as probably the world's best-selling military historian.

    I think both your characterization and my own are correct, but I suspect that mine has greater long-term significance.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

  183. @Thorfinnsson
    @Ron Unz

    I'm not sure that it's fair to describe Kantokuen as a "hypothetical" and then in the same sentence refer to Operation Pike as "fully planned and almost implemented".

    I haven't read the monograph you refer to, so perhaps there's more information there I'm not privy to, but to my knowledge the most detailed "plan" for Operation Pike was a detailed study by British Air Ministry from April, 1940.

    Forces were never actually sent to Middle Eastern bases for the proposed operation.

    Meanwhile the Japanese, by dint of geography, had millions of troops in Manchuria and Korea on the Soviet border. Japan's Tripartite allies were also engaged in a land campaign in the USSR at the time. Additionally, significant factions in the Japanese elite had long harbored aggressive designs on the Soviet Union and there had been skirmishes just two years before.

    A Japanese invasion of the USSR in the summer of 1941 could have tipped the scales in favor of the Axis, so perhaps you could publish a successor piece titled How Hirohito Saved the Allies.

    It's not wrong to describe the operation as hypothetical, because it was, but to suggest Operation Pike was more likely to take place is misleading.

    I've been reading and enjoying your essays for many years now. I do not always agree with your conclusions (though I frequently do), but they are always well-written, interesting, and thought-provoking.

    As for Suvorov, maybe he was suppressed. His work is poor, but poor work is no barrier to success--just look at the late Stephen Ambrose. There exists substantial pressure to maintain the narrative that Hitler was both uniquely evil and uniquely responsible for World War 2. I certainly recall Pat Buchanan's book Churchill, Hitler, and the Unnecessary War was highly controversial. Is it your contention that the existence of Operation Pike undermines popular anti-Hitlerism and was covered up for that reason?

    Replies: @Ron Unz

    A Japanese invasion of the USSR in the summer of 1941 could have tipped the scales in favor of the Axis…

    I think most standard history books usually discuss the internal conflicts within the Japanese military and political leadership between those who wanted to strike north against the Soviets and those who wanted to strike south against the Western powers. From what I recall, a top priority of Soviet agents in both Japan and America was to help redirect the Japanese southward, and they succeeded. McMeekin’s book discusses this in considerable detail.

    So although the term “Kantokuen” is quite uncommon, the idea is widely known. I’d certainly read about it dozens of times over the years, while until you mentioned the Japanese name for the possible operation I don’t think I’d ever seen it. Meanwhile, the notion of an early 1940 Allied attack on the Soviets was been almost totally removed from all Anglophone historiography for two or three generations, an entirely different situation.

    As for Suvorov, maybe he was suppressed. His work is poor…

    Stylistically, perhaps. On the other hand, his work was absolutely revolutionary and seminal, and it completely overturned the established narrative of World War II, while McMeekin’s exhaustive archival research has now confirmed that Suvorov was essentially correct. Meanwhile, Suvorov’s books sold many millions of copies, and established him as probably the world’s best-selling military historian.

    I think both your characterization and my own are correct, but I suspect that mine has greater long-term significance.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @Ron Unz



    I think most standard history books usually discuss the internal conflicts within the Japanese military and political leadership between those who wanted to strike north against the Soviets and those who wanted to strike south against the Western powers. From what I recall, a top priority of Soviet agents in both Japan and America was to help redirect the Japanese southward, and they succeeded. McMeekin’s book discusses this in considerable detail.

    So although the term “Kantokuen” is quite uncommon, the idea is widely known. I’d certainly read about it dozens of times over the years, while until you mentioned the Japanese name for the possible operation I don’t think I’d ever seen it. Meanwhile, the notion of an early 1940 Allied attack on the Soviets was been almost totally removed from all Anglophone historiography for two or three generations, an entirely different situation.
     
    I haven't yet read McMeekin's book, though I intend to after completing the book I'm currently reading. There was indeed an internal conflict within Japanese leadership, and the Strike South faction won out for a variety of reasons. These included the army being bogged down in China, the decisive Soviet victory at Khalkin Gol, the greater availability of needed raw materials (especially oil and rubber) in the "Southern Resource Area", and rapidly deteriorating relations with Britain and the United States in the aftermath of the occupation of French Indochina.

    I'm not sure to what extent Soviet agents played a role in this, but Western and especially US diplomacy was certainly critical. A watershed moment was when Dean Acheson exceeded the President's asset freeze orders to embargo all oil exports to Japan.

    Operation Barbarossa upended this balance by creating a new opportunity for Japan to strike north, which the army was very much in favor of. The failure of the Germans to achieve a strategic decision in Russia during the summer (or at all) ultimately caused the new plan to be shelved. This is comparable to Operation Pike in that the rapid German success in the west caused that plan to be shelved.


    Stylistically, perhaps. On the other hand, his work was absolutely revolutionary and seminal, and it completely overturned the established narrative of World War II, while McMeekin’s exhaustive archival research has now confirmed that Suvorov was essentially correct. Meanwhile, Suvorov’s books sold many millions of copies, and established him as probably the world’s best-selling military historian.

    I think both your characterization and my own are correct, but I suspect that mine has greater long-term significance.
     
    The problems with Suvorov's work have been well explored in these comment sections many time, so I won't belabor the point, but the basic issue is that he inappropriately ties procurement decisions to strategic intent. The same logic could be used to claim that Germany was not pursuing an aggressive foreign policy in the runup to the war because its armored formations were small and mostly equipped with inferior tanks.

    Suvorov was indeed very popular, which is not indicative of quality. He filled a popular hunger for anti-Soviet and also revisionist WW2 literature against the stale narrative. The most successful American WW2 historian in my lifetime is probably the late Stephen Ambrose, whose books were terrible and also guilty of plagiarism.

    Suvorov's thesis may have been new to Anglophones, but the thesis was not new. The same debate took place in West Germany in the 1950s, and the theory was originally advanced by German leadership during the war after encountering unexpectedly massive Soviet resistance and military power. German Eastern Front veterans commonly espoused the idea after the war.

    To close this, you still haven't definitively stated what exactly you think is so embarrassing about Operation Pike so as to motivate a coverup.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @utu, @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms, @Ron Unz

  184. @Mikhail
    @AltanBakshi

    There was a German-Finnish WW I/Russian Revolution era connection, in conjunction with Mannerheim having some clout before the aforementioned Winter War.

    Replies: @Jaakko Raipala

    But Mannerheim didn’t have political clout before the Winter War which is the whole problem. It would be entirely reasonable to expect Finland to have pro-German sympathies based on decades of pro-German sentiment and pro-German World War I collaboration by almost the entire political and cultural elite but it would be ridiculous to expect any based on any assumed clout by Carl Gustav Mannerheim who at that point was over 70 years old with a lifelong career as an anti-German influence.

    This was especially visible during the revolution when he fought a series of bitter power struggles against Germany and its puppets in Finnish politics, only to lose all of them and end up having to resign from the Finnish White Army when it was taken over by the Germans. Stalin of course closely followed all of that and he could see that Finland was close to Germany ever since 1918 – not because Mannerheim was winning clout but because kept losing.

    Mannerheim wanted to take the territorial exchange (actually he had already tried to make that happen during the Civil War with Yudenich). The government rejected that advice. After WWII Stalin demanded show trials for those members of government who he blamed the most while giving Mannerheim immunity. The man that Stalin seemingly blamed the most was the de facto leader of Finnish Social Democrats since 1918, Väinö Tanner, who was of course found to be a “social fascist”.

    Many Finnish Social Democrats were always pro-German which wasn’t a problem for Bolsheviks before the revolution when they were all eager to trash the Tsar’s war against Germany but it became a problem in 1918 when the Germans invaded and leftists had to choose between the Finnish Red Army and the Germans. Tanner and many others chose to collaborate with the Germans and it worked out very well for them, they got Germany to destroy the White movement in Finland, their pro-Bolshevik rivals in the left were destroyed and friends of Germany got a huge career boost in politics.

    (That was Stalin, though. IMO the biggest problem was and is that much of the elite that funds politics is ethnic Swedish and German and most of them are going to side with Germany for ethnic and cultural reasons regardless of whether it’s Nazi, monarchist or SJW. One Mannerheim can’t convince them to change.)

    • Thanks: Johann Ricke
  185. @AltanBakshi
    @Mikhail


    In the greater scheme of things, it could be reasonably deduced at the time that Finland would support Germany in a Nazi-Soviet war situation.
     
    Finland had no motive to join German war efforts before losing Karelia to USSR in the Winter War, Finnish irredentists were a small minority, and largest parties were very democratically minded Social Democrats and Agrarian League. Mildly put Nordic SocDems were not known for their Nazi sympathies. Winter War forced Finland to become Germany's ally. I know that Stalin feared that Finland would be used for invasion of Russia's northern flank, but Stalin's paranoia made it reality.

    Replies: @Mikhail, @Jaakko Raipala

    Hah. “Nordic Social Democrats” were in many ways very close to Nazis politically. The biggest difference is philo-Semitism vs. anti-Semitism. But then, in Finland Jews would happily fight for Operation Barbarossa under the swastika banner so…

    The tripartite economic system is exactly the same as under fascism with the difference that it’s not enforced by brownshirts because you don’t actually need brownshirt enforcement when you have jantelaw consensus conformism.

    Then there was the same eugenics and race biology. Völkischness is there with the folk-home ideology – difference was that it tended to focus on keeping the country as the folk-home that it already was instead of merging with World War I revanchism and the need to conquer more. You could say that parliamentarism is a big difference to Nazi Germany but I personally don’t think so as I don’t consider parliaments more than a cosmetic thing.

    Who’s the most famous “Nordic Social Democrat”? Must be Olof Palme. Did you know that the Palme family was already prominent in 1918 and they were a key force organizing the Swedish volunteers in the Finnish Civil War? Those guys who showed up here marching under the swastika banner, supposedly on the White side but often doing something entirely different than what they were supposed to do (ie. lots of atrocities and backstabbing)? Olof Palme actually died in the Finnish Civil War… an uncle of the famous one.

  186. @Ron Unz
    @Thorfinnsson


    A Japanese invasion of the USSR in the summer of 1941 could have tipped the scales in favor of the Axis...
     
    I think most standard history books usually discuss the internal conflicts within the Japanese military and political leadership between those who wanted to strike north against the Soviets and those who wanted to strike south against the Western powers. From what I recall, a top priority of Soviet agents in both Japan and America was to help redirect the Japanese southward, and they succeeded. McMeekin's book discusses this in considerable detail.

    So although the term "Kantokuen" is quite uncommon, the idea is widely known. I'd certainly read about it dozens of times over the years, while until you mentioned the Japanese name for the possible operation I don't think I'd ever seen it. Meanwhile, the notion of an early 1940 Allied attack on the Soviets was been almost totally removed from all Anglophone historiography for two or three generations, an entirely different situation.

    As for Suvorov, maybe he was suppressed. His work is poor...
     
    Stylistically, perhaps. On the other hand, his work was absolutely revolutionary and seminal, and it completely overturned the established narrative of World War II, while McMeekin's exhaustive archival research has now confirmed that Suvorov was essentially correct. Meanwhile, Suvorov's books sold many millions of copies, and established him as probably the world's best-selling military historian.

    I think both your characterization and my own are correct, but I suspect that mine has greater long-term significance.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson

    I think most standard history books usually discuss the internal conflicts within the Japanese military and political leadership between those who wanted to strike north against the Soviets and those who wanted to strike south against the Western powers. From what I recall, a top priority of Soviet agents in both Japan and America was to help redirect the Japanese southward, and they succeeded. McMeekin’s book discusses this in considerable detail.

    So although the term “Kantokuen” is quite uncommon, the idea is widely known. I’d certainly read about it dozens of times over the years, while until you mentioned the Japanese name for the possible operation I don’t think I’d ever seen it. Meanwhile, the notion of an early 1940 Allied attack on the Soviets was been almost totally removed from all Anglophone historiography for two or three generations, an entirely different situation.

    I haven’t yet read McMeekin’s book, though I intend to after completing the book I’m currently reading. There was indeed an internal conflict within Japanese leadership, and the Strike South faction won out for a variety of reasons. These included the army being bogged down in China, the decisive Soviet victory at Khalkin Gol, the greater availability of needed raw materials (especially oil and rubber) in the “Southern Resource Area”, and rapidly deteriorating relations with Britain and the United States in the aftermath of the occupation of French Indochina.

    I’m not sure to what extent Soviet agents played a role in this, but Western and especially US diplomacy was certainly critical. A watershed moment was when Dean Acheson exceeded the President’s asset freeze orders to embargo all oil exports to Japan.

    Operation Barbarossa upended this balance by creating a new opportunity for Japan to strike north, which the army was very much in favor of. The failure of the Germans to achieve a strategic decision in Russia during the summer (or at all) ultimately caused the new plan to be shelved. This is comparable to Operation Pike in that the rapid German success in the west caused that plan to be shelved.

    Stylistically, perhaps. On the other hand, his work was absolutely revolutionary and seminal, and it completely overturned the established narrative of World War II, while McMeekin’s exhaustive archival research has now confirmed that Suvorov was essentially correct. Meanwhile, Suvorov’s books sold many millions of copies, and established him as probably the world’s best-selling military historian.

    I think both your characterization and my own are correct, but I suspect that mine has greater long-term significance.

    The problems with Suvorov’s work have been well explored in these comment sections many time, so I won’t belabor the point, but the basic issue is that he inappropriately ties procurement decisions to strategic intent. The same logic could be used to claim that Germany was not pursuing an aggressive foreign policy in the runup to the war because its armored formations were small and mostly equipped with inferior tanks.

    Suvorov was indeed very popular, which is not indicative of quality. He filled a popular hunger for anti-Soviet and also revisionist WW2 literature against the stale narrative. The most successful American WW2 historian in my lifetime is probably the late Stephen Ambrose, whose books were terrible and also guilty of plagiarism.

    Suvorov’s thesis may have been new to Anglophones, but the thesis was not new. The same debate took place in West Germany in the 1950s, and the theory was originally advanced by German leadership during the war after encountering unexpectedly massive Soviet resistance and military power. German Eastern Front veterans commonly espoused the idea after the war.

    To close this, you still haven’t definitively stated what exactly you think is so embarrassing about Operation Pike so as to motivate a coverup.

    • Replies: @Thorfinnsson
    @Thorfinnsson

    Addendum:


    From what I recall, a top priority of Soviet agents in both Japan and America was to help redirect the Japanese southward, and they succeeded. McMeekin’s book discusses this in considerable detail.
     


    I’m not sure to what extent Soviet agents played a role in this
     
    https://twitter.com/Peter_Nimitz/status/1405022189070405635

    Peter Nimitz recommends Toland's book The Rising Sun as a background on Soviet-Japanese relations in the period as a companion to McMeekin's new book.
    , @utu
    @Thorfinnsson


    To close this, you still haven’t definitively stated what exactly you think is so embarrassing about Operation Pike so as to motivate a coverup.
     
    On the psychological level it could be very simple. Think of Monsieur Jourdain. If he had ego of Ron Unz he would suspect that the fact that he spoke prose all his life was kept from him must have been due to intentional concealment

    Operation Pike was embarrassing to Soviet Union and its Western allies who did not want to be reminded that Soviet Union was Hitler's ally for the first 21 months of WWII.

    Replies: @Ron Unz

    , @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @Thorfinnsson


    Strike South faction won out for a variety of reasons

     

    Japan declined to join Barbarossa b/c they
    1. Were taught a lesson at Nomonhan
    2. Felt betrayed by not being notified in advance of Barbarossa (also they grew highly suspicious after the Hess Incident)
    3. Were focused on cutting off supplies to Chiang in the China War and securing materiel for themselves

    Also— Hitler specifically did not inform Japan b/c he
    1. Thought the campaign would be finished in weeks
    2. Wanted Japan to tie up US/UK in the Pacific

    but Western and especially US diplomacy was certainly critical. A watershed moment was when Dean Acheson exceeded the President’s asset freeze orders to embargo all oil exports to Japan.

     

    Japan was only able to make war in China on the part of US materiel.

    Maxwell S. Stewart, a former Foreign Policy Association research staff and economist who charged that America's Neutrality Act and its "neutrality policy" was a massive farce which only benefited Japan and that Japan did not have the capability nor could ever have invaded China without the massive amount of raw material America exported to Japan.

     

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Sino-Japanese_War#Foreign_aid_and_support_to_China

    I’m not sure to what extent Soviet agents played a role in this

     

    Considerable. Both KMT and CCP were originally groomed by Soviets. I’ve commented here on Chiang playing off Japan and Soviets

    But during his Northern Expedition to unify China from the Warlords, Chiang would be backed by Soviet Russia. The Pan-Asianists considered this to be a direct betrayal.

     

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/the-black-muslim-capitol-cop-killer/#comment-4572114

    Soviets may also have had considerable role in Xi’an Incident, which led to KMT-CCP United Front.

    Chiang Kai-shek’s “secret deal” at Xian and the start of the Sino-Japanese War
    https://www.nature.com/articles/palcomms20143
    , @Ron Unz
    @Thorfinnsson


    I haven’t yet read McMeekin’s book, though I intend to after completing the book I’m currently reading.
     
    I think you'll find it excellent.

    I’m not sure to what extent Soviet agents played a role in this, but Western and especially US diplomacy was certainly critical. A watershed moment was when Dean Acheson exceeded the President’s asset freeze orders to embargo all oil exports to Japan.
     
    McMeekin makes a strong case that the machinations of Soviet agents were an important factor behind the American decisions that provoked the Japanese attack. He also argues that the failure of the Germans to take the Japanese into their confidence regarding Barbarossa was crucial in shifting the Japanese towards the Southern strategy.

    the basic issue is that he inappropriately ties procurement decisions to strategic intent.
     
    Putting the USSR on a full wartime economy in 1939, investing in the production of gigantic quantities of purely offensive weaponry while neglecting defensive efforts, and positioning those enormous offensive formations right on the border, merely awaiting a signal to attack, seems pretty indicative to me. Suvorov pointed out those obvious facts while others did not.

    To close this, you still haven’t definitively stated what exactly you think is so embarrassing about Operation Pike so as to motivate a coverup.
     
    Well, I'll just quote the title of the original 2015 National Interest article, which represented the first mainstream Anglophone coverage of the story in 75 years: “Operation Pike: How a Crazy Plan to Bomb Russia Almost Lost World War II.”

    Replies: @Triteleia Laxa, @reiner Tor

  187. @AltanBakshi
    @Mikhail

    Well existence of Croats and Poles is one of the best proofs against the existence of God, without those fiends it would be highly likely that whole Slavdom would be united under Russia's eternal loving and happy embrace, and Slavs would now have bases on moon, maybe even on Mars, but no, Polish and Croat slave mentality prefers German lords over Slavic brothers.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Mr. Hack

    You mean “prefers German lords over Russian lords” don’t you? BTW, which Slavs are living a better life today, the German lorded Slavs, or the Russian lorded ones, anyway?

    Oh, I forgot, most Slavic countries today left the Russian lorded camp long ago, AND AREN’T LOOKING BACK.

    • Troll: AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @iffen
    @Mr. Hack

    Alas, nobody wants to be "Little Russians" anymore.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    , @Bashibuzuk
    @Mr. Hack


    which Slavs are living a better life today, the German lorded Slavs
     
    Most German lorded Slavs have assimilated into the German nation long ago. Thay's where the 30+ % of haplogroup R1a in East Germany comes from. Probably it was even higher before WW2 in Eastern Prussia. The Lusatian Sorbs are an (interesting) exception to the norm.

    OTOH most Russian lorded Slavs ended up achieving national statehood. Russians are notoriously bad at assimilating other ethnicities. The Mordvinians, Komi and Udmurts are still here and a man of Tver Karelian ancestry is the president of RusFed after all...

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Mr. Hack

  188. @Mr. Hack
    @AltanBakshi

    You mean "prefers German lords over Russian lords" don't you? BTW, which Slavs are living a better life today, the German lorded Slavs, or the Russian lorded ones, anyway?

    Oh, I forgot, most Slavic countries today left the Russian lorded camp long ago, AND AREN'T LOOKING BACK.

    Replies: @iffen, @Bashibuzuk

    Alas, nobody wants to be “Little Russians” anymore.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @iffen

    At the time of the Tsarist Russia, when the "Little Russian" ethnonym was used, only around 48% of Russian elites considered Russian language as their native tongue. 28% were Polish speaking, you had around 10% German speaking aristocracy (with a total population of Germans in the Russian Empire being 2%), you had Caucasian aristocracy (Georgian mostly, but also Tatar / Kumyk etc). You even had the descendants of the French Royalist emigrées . The "Great Russians" were actually great in numbers, but not that great in their influence on the Empire's affairs with the immense majority of them being illiterate peasants only freed from serfdom for a couple of generations. And with the late Romanov being of 90+ % Germanic ancestry, it is actually not surprising at all. Fits all right with Karlin's IQ observations.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  189. Bashibuzuk says:
    @Mr. Hack
    @AltanBakshi

    You mean "prefers German lords over Russian lords" don't you? BTW, which Slavs are living a better life today, the German lorded Slavs, or the Russian lorded ones, anyway?

    Oh, I forgot, most Slavic countries today left the Russian lorded camp long ago, AND AREN'T LOOKING BACK.

    Replies: @iffen, @Bashibuzuk

    which Slavs are living a better life today, the German lorded Slavs

    Most German lorded Slavs have assimilated into the German nation long ago. Thay’s where the 30+ % of haplogroup R1a in East Germany comes from. Probably it was even higher before WW2 in Eastern Prussia. The Lusatian Sorbs are an (interesting) exception to the norm.

    OTOH most Russian lorded Slavs ended up achieving national statehood. Russians are notoriously bad at assimilating other ethnicities. The Mordvinians, Komi and Udmurts are still here and a man of Tver Karelian ancestry is the president of RusFed after all…

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Bashibuzuk


    The Lusatian Sorbs are an (interesting) exception to the norm
     
    Well there were Masurians not long time ago, also many Lutheran Kashubians or Pomerelian Slavs identified with Prussian Germans.
    , @Mr. Hack
    @Bashibuzuk

    I think that our spineless commenter Altan had in mind modern nation/states of Slavs, like Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Serbs, Croats, Bulgarians and others that forsook the Russian dominated Soviet Union, for Western alliances, rather than tribal Slavic assimilation that took place during the medieval period. To try and characterize the wholesale abandonment of any Moscow based centrifugal alignment as being "one of the best proofs against the existence of God" is the height of blasphemous folly. All of the above named nation-states were allied with the Russian dominated Soviet Union (and before that with Russia) for quite a long period of time. They decided that enough was enough, and when the time was right made a quick departure and have not ever looked back. Just to put things into perspective and show how ridiculous Altan's views really are, has there been any sort of clamoring by either any of the states or peoples mentioned above to realign themselves today with Russia?

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @AltanBakshi

  190. Bashibuzuk says:
    @iffen
    @Mr. Hack

    Alas, nobody wants to be "Little Russians" anymore.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    At the time of the Tsarist Russia, when the “Little Russian” ethnonym was used, only around 48% of Russian elites considered Russian language as their native tongue. 28% were Polish speaking, you had around 10% German speaking aristocracy (with a total population of Germans in the Russian Empire being 2%), you had Caucasian aristocracy (Georgian mostly, but also Tatar / Kumyk etc). You even had the descendants of the French Royalist emigrées . The “Great Russians” were actually great in numbers, but not that great in their influence on the Empire’s affairs with the immense majority of them being illiterate peasants only freed from serfdom for a couple of generations. And with the late Romanov being of 90+ % Germanic ancestry, it is actually not surprising at all. Fits all right with Karlin’s IQ observations.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Bashibuzuk

    Again you are telling these facts like they would be unique to Russia, nobility was quite international and partially Germanic or foreign almost everywhere in Europe after the Migration period. Some places had it much worse, Baltics, Ireland, Medieval England, Austrian lands, Osman state etc...

    Italy is an exception, they always kept their native aristocracy, even when French or Latinized Gauls were ruled by the Franks, senatorial class was still alive and well in the Ostrogothic and Byzantine Italy. Though some Italian dynasties had their origins in France or Spain, like Bourbons of Two Sicilies.

    Replies: @AP

  191. @Thorfinnsson
    @Ron Unz



    I think most standard history books usually discuss the internal conflicts within the Japanese military and political leadership between those who wanted to strike north against the Soviets and those who wanted to strike south against the Western powers. From what I recall, a top priority of Soviet agents in both Japan and America was to help redirect the Japanese southward, and they succeeded. McMeekin’s book discusses this in considerable detail.

    So although the term “Kantokuen” is quite uncommon, the idea is widely known. I’d certainly read about it dozens of times over the years, while until you mentioned the Japanese name for the possible operation I don’t think I’d ever seen it. Meanwhile, the notion of an early 1940 Allied attack on the Soviets was been almost totally removed from all Anglophone historiography for two or three generations, an entirely different situation.
     
    I haven't yet read McMeekin's book, though I intend to after completing the book I'm currently reading. There was indeed an internal conflict within Japanese leadership, and the Strike South faction won out for a variety of reasons. These included the army being bogged down in China, the decisive Soviet victory at Khalkin Gol, the greater availability of needed raw materials (especially oil and rubber) in the "Southern Resource Area", and rapidly deteriorating relations with Britain and the United States in the aftermath of the occupation of French Indochina.

    I'm not sure to what extent Soviet agents played a role in this, but Western and especially US diplomacy was certainly critical. A watershed moment was when Dean Acheson exceeded the President's asset freeze orders to embargo all oil exports to Japan.

    Operation Barbarossa upended this balance by creating a new opportunity for Japan to strike north, which the army was very much in favor of. The failure of the Germans to achieve a strategic decision in Russia during the summer (or at all) ultimately caused the new plan to be shelved. This is comparable to Operation Pike in that the rapid German success in the west caused that plan to be shelved.


    Stylistically, perhaps. On the other hand, his work was absolutely revolutionary and seminal, and it completely overturned the established narrative of World War II, while McMeekin’s exhaustive archival research has now confirmed that Suvorov was essentially correct. Meanwhile, Suvorov’s books sold many millions of copies, and established him as probably the world’s best-selling military historian.

    I think both your characterization and my own are correct, but I suspect that mine has greater long-term significance.
     
    The problems with Suvorov's work have been well explored in these comment sections many time, so I won't belabor the point, but the basic issue is that he inappropriately ties procurement decisions to strategic intent. The same logic could be used to claim that Germany was not pursuing an aggressive foreign policy in the runup to the war because its armored formations were small and mostly equipped with inferior tanks.

    Suvorov was indeed very popular, which is not indicative of quality. He filled a popular hunger for anti-Soviet and also revisionist WW2 literature against the stale narrative. The most successful American WW2 historian in my lifetime is probably the late Stephen Ambrose, whose books were terrible and also guilty of plagiarism.

    Suvorov's thesis may have been new to Anglophones, but the thesis was not new. The same debate took place in West Germany in the 1950s, and the theory was originally advanced by German leadership during the war after encountering unexpectedly massive Soviet resistance and military power. German Eastern Front veterans commonly espoused the idea after the war.

    To close this, you still haven't definitively stated what exactly you think is so embarrassing about Operation Pike so as to motivate a coverup.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @utu, @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms, @Ron Unz

    Addendum:

    From what I recall, a top priority of Soviet agents in both Japan and America was to help redirect the Japanese southward, and they succeeded. McMeekin’s book discusses this in considerable detail.

    I’m not sure to what extent Soviet agents played a role in this

    Peter Nimitz recommends Toland’s book The Rising Sun as a background on Soviet-Japanese relations in the period as a companion to McMeekin’s new book.

  192. utu says:
    @Thorfinnsson
    @Ron Unz



    I think most standard history books usually discuss the internal conflicts within the Japanese military and political leadership between those who wanted to strike north against the Soviets and those who wanted to strike south against the Western powers. From what I recall, a top priority of Soviet agents in both Japan and America was to help redirect the Japanese southward, and they succeeded. McMeekin’s book discusses this in considerable detail.

    So although the term “Kantokuen” is quite uncommon, the idea is widely known. I’d certainly read about it dozens of times over the years, while until you mentioned the Japanese name for the possible operation I don’t think I’d ever seen it. Meanwhile, the notion of an early 1940 Allied attack on the Soviets was been almost totally removed from all Anglophone historiography for two or three generations, an entirely different situation.
     
    I haven't yet read McMeekin's book, though I intend to after completing the book I'm currently reading. There was indeed an internal conflict within Japanese leadership, and the Strike South faction won out for a variety of reasons. These included the army being bogged down in China, the decisive Soviet victory at Khalkin Gol, the greater availability of needed raw materials (especially oil and rubber) in the "Southern Resource Area", and rapidly deteriorating relations with Britain and the United States in the aftermath of the occupation of French Indochina.

    I'm not sure to what extent Soviet agents played a role in this, but Western and especially US diplomacy was certainly critical. A watershed moment was when Dean Acheson exceeded the President's asset freeze orders to embargo all oil exports to Japan.

    Operation Barbarossa upended this balance by creating a new opportunity for Japan to strike north, which the army was very much in favor of. The failure of the Germans to achieve a strategic decision in Russia during the summer (or at all) ultimately caused the new plan to be shelved. This is comparable to Operation Pike in that the rapid German success in the west caused that plan to be shelved.


    Stylistically, perhaps. On the other hand, his work was absolutely revolutionary and seminal, and it completely overturned the established narrative of World War II, while McMeekin’s exhaustive archival research has now confirmed that Suvorov was essentially correct. Meanwhile, Suvorov’s books sold many millions of copies, and established him as probably the world’s best-selling military historian.

    I think both your characterization and my own are correct, but I suspect that mine has greater long-term significance.
     
    The problems with Suvorov's work have been well explored in these comment sections many time, so I won't belabor the point, but the basic issue is that he inappropriately ties procurement decisions to strategic intent. The same logic could be used to claim that Germany was not pursuing an aggressive foreign policy in the runup to the war because its armored formations were small and mostly equipped with inferior tanks.

    Suvorov was indeed very popular, which is not indicative of quality. He filled a popular hunger for anti-Soviet and also revisionist WW2 literature against the stale narrative. The most successful American WW2 historian in my lifetime is probably the late Stephen Ambrose, whose books were terrible and also guilty of plagiarism.

    Suvorov's thesis may have been new to Anglophones, but the thesis was not new. The same debate took place in West Germany in the 1950s, and the theory was originally advanced by German leadership during the war after encountering unexpectedly massive Soviet resistance and military power. German Eastern Front veterans commonly espoused the idea after the war.

    To close this, you still haven't definitively stated what exactly you think is so embarrassing about Operation Pike so as to motivate a coverup.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @utu, @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms, @Ron Unz

    To close this, you still haven’t definitively stated what exactly you think is so embarrassing about Operation Pike so as to motivate a coverup.

    On the psychological level it could be very simple. Think of Monsieur Jourdain. If he had ego of Ron Unz he would suspect that the fact that he spoke prose all his life was kept from him must have been due to intentional concealment

    Operation Pike was embarrassing to Soviet Union and its Western allies who did not want to be reminded that Soviet Union was Hitler’s ally for the first 21 months of WWII.

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    @utu


    On the psychological level it could be very simple. Think of Monsieur Jourdain. If he had ego of Ron Unz he would suspect that the fact that he spoke prose all his life was kept from him must have been due to intentional concealment
     
    Look, I'll freely admit that until the last decade or so, my knowledge of WWII came from mainstream Anglosphere history books and MSM articles. Since virtually none of them had ever mentioned Operation Pike in 75 years, I'd been entirely unaware of it until just a few years ago.

    It sounds like you were far ahead of me in that regard. Just out of curiosity, when and how did you find out about it given that it was almost entirely excluded from English-language books and media for nearly three generations?
  193. @Bashibuzuk
    @Mr. Hack


    which Slavs are living a better life today, the German lorded Slavs
     
    Most German lorded Slavs have assimilated into the German nation long ago. Thay's where the 30+ % of haplogroup R1a in East Germany comes from. Probably it was even higher before WW2 in Eastern Prussia. The Lusatian Sorbs are an (interesting) exception to the norm.

    OTOH most Russian lorded Slavs ended up achieving national statehood. Russians are notoriously bad at assimilating other ethnicities. The Mordvinians, Komi and Udmurts are still here and a man of Tver Karelian ancestry is the president of RusFed after all...

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Mr. Hack

    The Lusatian Sorbs are an (interesting) exception to the norm

    Well there were Masurians not long time ago, also many Lutheran Kashubians or Pomerelian Slavs identified with Prussian Germans.

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
  194. @Bashibuzuk
    @iffen

    At the time of the Tsarist Russia, when the "Little Russian" ethnonym was used, only around 48% of Russian elites considered Russian language as their native tongue. 28% were Polish speaking, you had around 10% German speaking aristocracy (with a total population of Germans in the Russian Empire being 2%), you had Caucasian aristocracy (Georgian mostly, but also Tatar / Kumyk etc). You even had the descendants of the French Royalist emigrées . The "Great Russians" were actually great in numbers, but not that great in their influence on the Empire's affairs with the immense majority of them being illiterate peasants only freed from serfdom for a couple of generations. And with the late Romanov being of 90+ % Germanic ancestry, it is actually not surprising at all. Fits all right with Karlin's IQ observations.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    Again you are telling these facts like they would be unique to Russia, nobility was quite international and partially Germanic or foreign almost everywhere in Europe after the Migration period. Some places had it much worse, Baltics, Ireland, Medieval England, Austrian lands, Osman state etc…

    Italy is an exception, they always kept their native aristocracy, even when French or Latinized Gauls were ruled by the Franks, senatorial class was still alive and well in the Ostrogothic and Byzantine Italy. Though some Italian dynasties had their origins in France or Spain, like Bourbons of Two Sicilies.

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @AP
    @AltanBakshi


    Some places had it much worse, Baltics, Ireland, Medieval England, Austrian lands, Osman state etc…
     
    I suspect that PLC elite was much more Polish, Lithuanian and Ruthenian (all natives) than were the elites in Russia (initially Rurikids, before they assimilated, many of Tatar descent, to which were added plenty of Germans, Poles, Lithuanians, some Georgians). PLC had the Swedish Vasa dynasty, but Romanovs were Germans for far longer than the Vasas ruled Poland, which had outstanding Polish or Lithuanian rulers like Sobieski.

    England's Norman situation was even more extreme (eventually the Norman invaders basically wiped out the Anglo-Saxon elites, and Norman French was the English court language for generations), but it seems like Russia otherwise had the least native elite of all non-occupied European countries. And this phenomenon continued after the Revolution, which replaced the elite of largely Rurikid, German, Tatar, Polish descent with Caucasians, Jews, and Latvians. Since the time of Catherine II, Russia wasn't fully ruled by real Russians until the Khrushchev era.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @AltanBakshi

  195. @Bashibuzuk
    @Mr. Hack


    which Slavs are living a better life today, the German lorded Slavs
     
    Most German lorded Slavs have assimilated into the German nation long ago. Thay's where the 30+ % of haplogroup R1a in East Germany comes from. Probably it was even higher before WW2 in Eastern Prussia. The Lusatian Sorbs are an (interesting) exception to the norm.

    OTOH most Russian lorded Slavs ended up achieving national statehood. Russians are notoriously bad at assimilating other ethnicities. The Mordvinians, Komi and Udmurts are still here and a man of Tver Karelian ancestry is the president of RusFed after all...

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Mr. Hack

    I think that our spineless commenter Altan had in mind modern nation/states of Slavs, like Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Serbs, Croats, Bulgarians and others that forsook the Russian dominated Soviet Union, for Western alliances, rather than tribal Slavic assimilation that took place during the medieval period. To try and characterize the wholesale abandonment of any Moscow based centrifugal alignment as being “one of the best proofs against the existence of God” is the height of blasphemous folly. All of the above named nation-states were allied with the Russian dominated Soviet Union (and before that with Russia) for quite a long period of time. They decided that enough was enough, and when the time was right made a quick departure and have not ever looked back. Just to put things into perspective and show how ridiculous Altan’s views really are, has there been any sort of clamoring by either any of the states or peoples mentioned above to realign themselves today with Russia?

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @Mr. Hack

    RusFed is not Russia. If it was Russia, then the well-being of Russians would be the top priority of RusFedian Kremlins. We both know that this is not the case. Everyone running away from Kremlins is of course understandable. Who in their sane mind would want to be ruled by these people? The same logic applies to the Ukrainian counterpart of the RusFedian elites and the Bielorussian potato dictator.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    , @AltanBakshi
    @Mr. Hack


    To try and characterize the wholesale abandonment of any Moscow based centrifugal alignment as being “one of the best proofs against the existence of God” is the height of blasphemous folly.

     

    Mr. Hack are you really such a simpleton? It was a joke, isn't that clear? anyway I respect you quite a much, because you are a honest Christian. No matter if we have greatly differing viewpoints.
  196. Bashibuzuk says:
    @Mr. Hack
    @Bashibuzuk

    I think that our spineless commenter Altan had in mind modern nation/states of Slavs, like Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Serbs, Croats, Bulgarians and others that forsook the Russian dominated Soviet Union, for Western alliances, rather than tribal Slavic assimilation that took place during the medieval period. To try and characterize the wholesale abandonment of any Moscow based centrifugal alignment as being "one of the best proofs against the existence of God" is the height of blasphemous folly. All of the above named nation-states were allied with the Russian dominated Soviet Union (and before that with Russia) for quite a long period of time. They decided that enough was enough, and when the time was right made a quick departure and have not ever looked back. Just to put things into perspective and show how ridiculous Altan's views really are, has there been any sort of clamoring by either any of the states or peoples mentioned above to realign themselves today with Russia?

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @AltanBakshi

    RusFed is not Russia. If it was Russia, then the well-being of Russians would be the top priority of RusFedian Kremlins. We both know that this is not the case. Everyone running away from Kremlins is of course understandable. Who in their sane mind would want to be ruled by these people? The same logic applies to the Ukrainian counterpart of the RusFedian elites and the Bielorussian potato dictator.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Bashibuzuk


    RusFed is not Russia. If it was Russia, then the well-being of Russians would be the top priority of RusFedian Kremlins.
     
    Just because you don't like the current crop of crooks and oligarchs running the show in Russia, this doesn't mean that it isn't Russia Most countries in the world are not run by a class of leaders and politicians that are working for the best interests of their constituents. Some are better and some are worse than others, but it all boils down to "мы имеем то, что имеем."

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  197. @Mr. Hack
    @Bashibuzuk

    I think that our spineless commenter Altan had in mind modern nation/states of Slavs, like Poles, Czechs, Slovaks, Serbs, Croats, Bulgarians and others that forsook the Russian dominated Soviet Union, for Western alliances, rather than tribal Slavic assimilation that took place during the medieval period. To try and characterize the wholesale abandonment of any Moscow based centrifugal alignment as being "one of the best proofs against the existence of God" is the height of blasphemous folly. All of the above named nation-states were allied with the Russian dominated Soviet Union (and before that with Russia) for quite a long period of time. They decided that enough was enough, and when the time was right made a quick departure and have not ever looked back. Just to put things into perspective and show how ridiculous Altan's views really are, has there been any sort of clamoring by either any of the states or peoples mentioned above to realign themselves today with Russia?

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @AltanBakshi

    To try and characterize the wholesale abandonment of any Moscow based centrifugal alignment as being “one of the best proofs against the existence of God” is the height of blasphemous folly.

    Mr. Hack are you really such a simpleton? It was a joke, isn’t that clear? anyway I respect you quite a much, because you are a honest Christian. No matter if we have greatly differing viewpoints.

  198. I neither read Russian nor know anything about this image. Only that it ties-in, tangentially, to at least three themes here:

    [MORE]

    Cats, education, and, of course, Russia.

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @Dissident

    The kid is supposed to-do homework, but instead he spent an hour looking at the cat only to find out that during that hour the cat did nothing at all.

    BTW it is entirely true that cats often will try to lay down for a nap on a book when one is reading. Cats like to impose themselves as the to the attention of their pet humans...

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

  199. Bashibuzuk says:
    @Dissident
    https://i.ebayimg.com/images/g/5iwAAOSwu-BWP8TJ/s-l640.jpg

    I neither read Russian nor know anything about this image. Only that it ties-in, tangentially, to at least three themes here:
    Cats, education, and, of course, Russia.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    The kid is supposed to-do homework, but instead he spent an hour looking at the cat only to find out that during that hour the cat did nothing at all.

    BTW it is entirely true that cats often will try to lay down for a nap on a book when one is reading. Cats like to impose themselves as the to the attention of their pet humans…

    • Thanks: Dissident
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @Bashibuzuk

    Kitty is focusing you on the important thing in life: herself

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  200. It is becoming clear that Biden is not up to non scripted interactions, which is why Putin was given such a platform with his marathon solo press conference at the end of G7.

    Biden is not going to last very much longer before a policy of restricting access to him is imposed. The way his wife publicly took him by the hand and led him away when he was apparently wandering lost is something my mother would not do with my 86 year old dad. It’s proto dementia, and he has less than a year.

    • Replies: @iffen
    @Sean

    And the problem is ...

    , @Yellowface Anon
    @Sean

    Just as planned, like how Kamala is the VP!

  201. @Bashibuzuk
    @Dissident

    The kid is supposed to-do homework, but instead he spent an hour looking at the cat only to find out that during that hour the cat did nothing at all.

    BTW it is entirely true that cats often will try to lay down for a nap on a book when one is reading. Cats like to impose themselves as the to the attention of their pet humans...

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    Kitty is focusing you on the important thing in life: herself

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @Daniel Chieh

    Ideal cats according to my tastes:

    https://mymodernmet.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/siberian-cats-alla-lebedeva-26.jpg

    Ideal cat according to madame Bashi's tastes:

    https://www.purina.eu/sites/default/files/2017-12/cat_cornishrex_400x378.jpg

    I have already told her several times that she will have to divorce me before she brings one of these degenerate mutants home.

    Right now our cat is a respectable Siberian and I will make sure it will stay that way.

    https://images.saymedia-content.com/.image/t_share/MTc0Mzc0Nzk3Mzg2NzIwOTAy/hereditary-diseases-of-the-siberian-forest-cat.jpg

    This one is quite similar to the cat that accepted our family as pets. It gets well with our dogs too (it is a very generous animal to share its house with all of us).

    Replies: @AP

  202. Republicans with the big “no u”.

  203. Bashibuzuk says:
    @Daniel Chieh
    @Bashibuzuk

    Kitty is focusing you on the important thing in life: herself

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    Ideal cats according to my tastes:

    Ideal cat according to madame Bashi’s tastes:

    [MORE]

    I have already told her several times that she will have to divorce me before she brings one of these degenerate mutants home.

    Right now our cat is a respectable Siberian and I will make sure it will stay that way.

    This one is quite similar to the cat that accepted our family as pets. It gets well with our dogs too (it is a very generous animal to share its house with all of us).

    • Agree: AP, Daniel Chieh
    • Replies: @AP
    @Bashibuzuk

    You need to get one of these:

    https://i.redd.it/5apnumfndit01.jpg

    https://static.boredpanda.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/pallas-cat-manul-10__880.jpg

    They are from Russia and Central Asia.

    People have bred domestic cats with Bengal cats and Servals to produce domesticated hybrids. Some Russian needs to start a breeding program to produce hybrids with these guys. For the glory of Russia. This would be much better use of money, and much cheaper than a huge yacht.

    The wrong people have money in Russia.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @Blinky Bill

  204. @Sean
    It is becoming clear that Biden is not up to non scripted interactions, which is why Putin was given such a platform with his marathon solo press conference at the end of G7.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhQrf4ympQE
    Biden is not going to last very much longer before a policy of restricting access to him is imposed. The way his wife publicly took him by the hand and led him away when he was apparently wandering lost is something my mother would not do with my 86 year old dad. It's proto dementia, and he has less than a year.

    Replies: @iffen, @Yellowface Anon

    And the problem is …

  205. In Russian politics news of the week, politician Larisa Shoigu has been killed by coronavirus – she was only 68 (https://www.pnp.ru/politics/umerla-deputat-gosdumy-larisa-shoygu.htm).

    The younger generation of the political family is economically expanding. https://pasmi.ru/archive/314095/

  206. @Bashibuzuk
    @Mr. Hack

    RusFed is not Russia. If it was Russia, then the well-being of Russians would be the top priority of RusFedian Kremlins. We both know that this is not the case. Everyone running away from Kremlins is of course understandable. Who in their sane mind would want to be ruled by these people? The same logic applies to the Ukrainian counterpart of the RusFedian elites and the Bielorussian potato dictator.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    RusFed is not Russia. If it was Russia, then the well-being of Russians would be the top priority of RusFedian Kremlins.

    Just because you don’t like the current crop of crooks and oligarchs running the show in Russia, this doesn’t mean that it isn’t Russia Most countries in the world are not run by a class of leaders and politicians that are working for the best interests of their constituents. Some are better and some are worse than others, but it all boils down to “мы имеем то, что имеем.”

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @Mr. Hack


    “мы имеем то, что имеем.”
     
    This is true, but one has to be careful about definitions, first one should define what exactly would be a state that would qualify as a "Russian National State" and then one should see if this definition is applicable to the RusFed. And of course, to define any National State we first must define what is its "titular nation: and how it is different from other nations and peoples.

    I have already mentioned once that in my opinion, Russia ethnos, formed mainly by the North-Eastern Slavic tribes (Slovene, Krivichi etc.) and the Finno-Ugric tribes (Muroma, Messhera, Chud' etc.) under the leadership of the Vladimir-Suzdal branch of the Rurikid Rus princes, did not evolve to complete its nation-building before the Bolshevik takeover. Various historical causes prevented from the arising of a clear national identity among the large Russian masses during the reign of the Romanov dynasty. Russian nationalist movement was rather limited in the Empire days.

    After the Bolshevik takeover, completing this nation-building become impossible, because a Soviet identity was imposed from the top. This nation-building should be completed today, with Russians finally becoming the masters in their own land, where they form more than 80% percent of the population. But it is the opposite that is happening right in front of our eyes, we witness a demographic and spiritual weakening of the Russian ethnos. A weakening that might well lead to a collapse of Russian ethnos in the next 2-3 generations.

    Therefore, unfortunately the nation-building of Russians is far from being a done deal and is perhaps something that might never be completed. And given that there cannot be a Russian Nation State in the absence of a Russian nation, we have to logically conclude that the current iteration of Statehood in the ancestral Russian lands is not Russia, but is something entirely different.

    That is why I (and some other Russian nationalists) prefer naming it RusFed (or even more sarcastically in Russian; Ресурсная Федерация - РесФед). Interestingly enough in official RusFedian lingo, the citizens of RidFed are not Russians, but some undefined Rossiyane, who can be of any ethnic origin whatsoever. This confirms that RusFed is not Russia.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon, @Yellowface Anon, @Mr. Hack, @Dmitry, @Mr. Hack

  207. AP says:
    @AltanBakshi
    @Bashibuzuk

    Again you are telling these facts like they would be unique to Russia, nobility was quite international and partially Germanic or foreign almost everywhere in Europe after the Migration period. Some places had it much worse, Baltics, Ireland, Medieval England, Austrian lands, Osman state etc...

    Italy is an exception, they always kept their native aristocracy, even when French or Latinized Gauls were ruled by the Franks, senatorial class was still alive and well in the Ostrogothic and Byzantine Italy. Though some Italian dynasties had their origins in France or Spain, like Bourbons of Two Sicilies.

    Replies: @AP

    Some places had it much worse, Baltics, Ireland, Medieval England, Austrian lands, Osman state etc…

    I suspect that PLC elite was much more Polish, Lithuanian and Ruthenian (all natives) than were the elites in Russia (initially Rurikids, before they assimilated, many of Tatar descent, to which were added plenty of Germans, Poles, Lithuanians, some Georgians). PLC had the Swedish Vasa dynasty, but Romanovs were Germans for far longer than the Vasas ruled Poland, which had outstanding Polish or Lithuanian rulers like Sobieski.

    England’s Norman situation was even more extreme (eventually the Norman invaders basically wiped out the Anglo-Saxon elites, and Norman French was the English court language for generations), but it seems like Russia otherwise had the least native elite of all non-occupied European countries. And this phenomenon continued after the Revolution, which replaced the elite of largely Rurikid, German, Tatar, Polish descent with Caucasians, Jews, and Latvians. Since the time of Catherine II, Russia wasn’t fully ruled by real Russians until the Khrushchev era.

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @AP

    I would add that Khruschev and Brezhnev had probably more sympathy towards Ukrainian regions than towards the Russian hinterland. I would say that the first true Russian in charge of Russian affairs was Gorbachev, who destroyed the Soviet Union. Yeltsin was also Russian, but his wife was Jewish. Putin is Russian, but is of Ugric ancestry as is the Patriarch Kiril. Of course these distinction are not really important, these are details. But still, these details are kind of revealing.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    , @AltanBakshi
    @AP


    I suspect that PLC elite was much more Polish, Lithuanian and Ruthenian (all natives) than were the elites in Russia (initially Rurikids, before they assimilated, many of Tatar descent, to which were added plenty of Germans, Poles, Lithuanians, some Georgians). PLC had the Swedish Vasa dynasty, but Romanovs were Germans for far longer than the Vasas ruled Poland, which had outstanding Polish or Lithuanian rulers like Sobieski.
     
    As we well know, PLC was a personal union, in the Lithuanian part Ruthenian and Lithuanian native elites got Polonized, well at least culturally and religiously. You are such a PLC fan boy that it doesn't even matter what I will write, but in the Lithuanian part elites increasingly spoke not Ruthenian or Lithuanian, which were the native languages of Lithuania, but Polish, also outside of ethnic Lithuanian lands majority of population was Orthodox or Greek Catholics, therefore elites of duchy of Lithuania did mostly not share the language nor the religion of their subjects, in such way the situation was more extreme than in Russia, same could be said of Ukrainian, Volhynian and Galician parts of Poland. As numerous Ruthenian/Ukrainian revolts and massacres of local Poles and Jews show us, there was no ethnic-cultural or religious unity in Poland.

    AP England herself was ruled by Dutch and German kings from the time of William III to, well to present era. Does Glorious revolution or Hanover say anything, for 18th century English kings usually spoke better German than English...

    PLC is one of the shittiest European major powers ever to exist, by the means of a lucky marriage, Szlachta gained an empire made by Lithuanians, had it's heyday only for a century, before getting utterly devastated by Sweden and Cossack revolts, afterwards continuous strife between unruly members of elite, who were ready to sell their country for the highest bidder, periodic civil wars, weak kings, PLC was an eastern European proto-oligarchy, utter trash and waste.

    Oh wait what were the Bourbons and Habsburgs of the Spain? Or the current royal dynasty of Sweden, which was established by one of the marshals of Napoleon? What about Greeks, Romanians and Bulgarians who were ruled by men who were fully German by their heritage.

    Stop AP this sillyness, Russia's situation was no way extreme.

    And Bashi your history narrative makes niggers out of the Russians. "White man enslaved my ancestors," just replace white man with German or something and then you have Bashi's view of Russian history!

    Replies: @AP

  208. AP says:
    @Bashibuzuk
    @Daniel Chieh

    Ideal cats according to my tastes:

    https://mymodernmet.com/wp/wp-content/uploads/2017/12/siberian-cats-alla-lebedeva-26.jpg

    Ideal cat according to madame Bashi's tastes:

    https://www.purina.eu/sites/default/files/2017-12/cat_cornishrex_400x378.jpg

    I have already told her several times that she will have to divorce me before she brings one of these degenerate mutants home.

    Right now our cat is a respectable Siberian and I will make sure it will stay that way.

    https://images.saymedia-content.com/.image/t_share/MTc0Mzc0Nzk3Mzg2NzIwOTAy/hereditary-diseases-of-the-siberian-forest-cat.jpg

    This one is quite similar to the cat that accepted our family as pets. It gets well with our dogs too (it is a very generous animal to share its house with all of us).

    Replies: @AP

    You need to get one of these:

    They are from Russia and Central Asia.

    People have bred domestic cats with Bengal cats and Servals to produce domesticated hybrids. Some Russian needs to start a breeding program to produce hybrids with these guys. For the glory of Russia. This would be much better use of money, and much cheaper than a huge yacht.

    The wrong people have money in Russia.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @AP

    I have read that Mauls have a terribly aggressive behavior and are completely impossible to domesticate. Although I don't know if anyone tried to breed them with domestic cats.

    I agree about the wrong people having money (and yachts) in RusFed.

    , @Blinky Bill
    @AP

    https://i.redd.it/wy8xdzxi89y41.jpg

  209. Bashibuzuk says:
    @Mr. Hack
    @Bashibuzuk


    RusFed is not Russia. If it was Russia, then the well-being of Russians would be the top priority of RusFedian Kremlins.
     
    Just because you don't like the current crop of crooks and oligarchs running the show in Russia, this doesn't mean that it isn't Russia Most countries in the world are not run by a class of leaders and politicians that are working for the best interests of their constituents. Some are better and some are worse than others, but it all boils down to "мы имеем то, что имеем."

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    “мы имеем то, что имеем.”

    This is true, but one has to be careful about definitions, first one should define what exactly would be a state that would qualify as a “Russian National State” and then one should see if this definition is applicable to the RusFed. And of course, to define any National State we first must define what is its “titular nation: and how it is different from other nations and peoples.

    I have already mentioned once that in my opinion, Russia ethnos, formed mainly by the North-Eastern Slavic tribes (Slovene, Krivichi etc.) and the Finno-Ugric tribes (Muroma, Messhera, Chud’ etc.) under the leadership of the Vladimir-Suzdal branch of the Rurikid Rus princes, did not evolve to complete its nation-building before the Bolshevik takeover. Various historical causes prevented from the arising of a clear national identity among the large Russian masses during the reign of the Romanov dynasty. Russian nationalist movement was rather limited in the Empire days.

    After the Bolshevik takeover, completing this nation-building become impossible, because a Soviet identity was imposed from the top. This nation-building should be completed today, with Russians finally becoming the masters in their own land, where they form more than 80% percent of the population. But it is the opposite that is happening right in front of our eyes, we witness a demographic and spiritual weakening of the Russian ethnos. A weakening that might well lead to a collapse of Russian ethnos in the next 2-3 generations.

    Therefore, unfortunately the nation-building of Russians is far from being a done deal and is perhaps something that might never be completed. And given that there cannot be a Russian Nation State in the absence of a Russian nation, we have to logically conclude that the current iteration of Statehood in the ancestral Russian lands is not Russia, but is something entirely different.

    That is why I (and some other Russian nationalists) prefer naming it RusFed (or even more sarcastically in Russian; Ресурсная Федерация – РесФед). Interestingly enough in official RusFedian lingo, the citizens of RidFed are not Russians, but some undefined Rossiyane, who can be of any ethnic origin whatsoever. This confirms that RusFed is not Russia.

    • Replies: @Yellowface Anon
    @Bashibuzuk

    If you want an ethno-state, grant minority-majority regions much greater levels of autonomy. Like what the Qing Dynasty or the Ottomans once did.

    I'm not talking about Russia's southern neighbor, BTW. That'll be crypto-separatist.

    Tho modern nationalism isn't compatible to the traditional Chinese concept of all-under-heaven. Rather than ethno-states in the European sense, there was a large civilizational sphere, usually with a central imperial authority, then some more peripheral kingdoms adopting Chinese civilization wholesale and states further field for trade/tribute. India was similar, but much more decentralized and multipolar. It was still the case in the Qing Dynasty when the ruling elite was foreign but nativized.

    Then the Revolution imposed crude modernism and the principle of Five Races Under One Union (五族共和) which was Sun Yat-sen's attempt to coalesce the 5 races (Han predominance + Hui, Mongol, Manchu, Tibetan) into one nation ideologically. The CCP kept with the program but added its own Soviet mentality of occasional neutral negligence and occasional compulsive assimilation. That was the wrong road - you could either be Chinese and be incorporated into the imperial state; adopt Chinese culture and social institutions wholesale while keeping your own language; or accept suzerainty and retain the native ruling class and culture (this was how Great Qing dealt with non-Han).

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Anatoly Karlin

    , @Yellowface Anon
    @Bashibuzuk

    I was planning to add to your reply with some basic understanding of Chinese nationalism, but Unz.com ate my comment and otherwise it might have led to a break-in by National Security. I didn't advocate for separatism in that comment, but the topic is sensitive enough (ethnical minorities in China).

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    , @Mr. Hack
    @Bashibuzuk

    Aren't the people mostly at the top levers of government Russians though? So in fact we have a majority of Russians voting mostly for politicians of Russian ethnos, all situated within "their own land". Again perfection is hard to find and “мы имеем то, что имеем.”

    BTW, your second paragraph is a gem of conciseness and I couldn't agree with you any more. What you're in effect saying is that the Russian nationality never really had the opportunity to evolve to completion because the vagaries of imperialism, whether in the Empire period or in the Soviet one, stood in the way of normal nation/state evolution. Similarly Ukraine, never really had the opportunity to evolve fully into a normal nation/state too, due to the same forces of imperialism. Both Russia and Ukraine are chugging along well into the 21st century as incomplete nation states. Then there's the ever present pressure of globalism that is working towards arresting the development of all forms of nation/state development. Not really a whole lot to remedy this situation that will need more than vyshivankas and balalaikas to turn things around. Nationalism doesn't always sell well when one needs to put food on the kitchen table.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Anatoly Karlin

    , @Dmitry
    @Bashibuzuk

    I think it's more easy to explain. Of course, today Russians are a majority and titular (but only in name, without other privileges) nationality of the Russian Federation, among other nationalities that can be more or less successful than the majority nationality.

    Adding to the complicated relationship, is that imperialism in Russian context was so successful in terms of land extension, that it has resulted in federation which includes nationalities derived from non-European, nonslavic nationalities (that can seem difficult to assimilate without losing European identity), sharing the same land borders, without a sea that separated many other empires from their colonies (e.g. British Empire, Spanish Empire). This is the life of a federation, union, empire, etc.

    There are sweet and bitter fruits of imperialism. You conquer historically foreign lands (good news for the power of the elite), but you also become responsible for the different nationalities and sometimes their exotic, non-assimilable culture and religions, which still live on the land which you conquered from them (and this not always unambiguously good news for the ordinary people on both sides, and eventually results in you becoming married to those nationalities, and them to you).

    If a national self-determining Russia ceded from areas that has nonslavic nationalities, and tries to minimize the existence of nonslavic nationalities in the Russian areas, then the country should be more governable, European, and not slave to the considerations of federal appeasement.

    Nationalism is based on the concept of self-determination of the peoples, and in the Russian context the result is a national liberation for both the non-titular nationalities, and for the titular nationality, that had become bound together by historical imperialism. Self-determination of Russians, also implies the ability of the self-determination of nonrussians - national liberation is more like a negative liberation: the liberation you experience after "divorce" from a toxic relationship.

    The late stage of imperialism, results in the titular nationality, having no more privileges, than the non-titular nationality. And in this sense, all sides share the negative consequences of the bad marriage which was created by the imperialism of the elites of previous centuries.

    However, I doubt that (even in this unlikely nationalist scenario) the reality of national self-determination for and from Russians, would match the rosy expectations, as we see in Ukraine.

    Ukraine is 98%+ slavic populations, and needless to say something every child would predict - there was no utopia in Ukraine.

    Being a European self-determined country, is not an instant shortcut to e.g. Swedish, Swiss or Netherlands living standards, which were based on a centuries of good governance and hard work.

    Similarly, there are plenty of examples of multinational places (including with majority third world origin nationalities e.g. Singapore, Bermuda), which are great places to live - usually as a result of a historical European tradition like the English legal system, that was carried to them by imperialism.

    -

    AP's posting photos above about the Manul. Of course, this is not a native cat to any of Europe. It comes from Altai Republic, Kazakhstan, Iran and India. It enters the Russian Empire in the 18th century, at the same time as the oriental Altai people.

    This is two centuries after Tenochtitlan, entered the Spanish Empire, after the massacre of the Aztec aristocracy. (Ancestors of the Aztecs, possibly originating in oriental races that were assimilated centuries later in the Russian Empire).

    A difference is that the Spanish imperialism had a sea between it, and in Russia all land. But in the 21st century Spain has been reflooded with the peoples from its former colonies, as in Russia is flooded with e.g. Uzbeks and Armenians, after those nationalities became nominally (but not economically) independent.

    Replies: @AP, @Anatoly Karlin

    , @Mr. Hack
    @Bashibuzuk


    I have already mentioned once that in my opinion, Russia ethnos, formed mainly by the North-Eastern Slavic tribes (Slovene, Krivichi etc.) and the Finno-Ugric tribes (Muroma, Messhera, Chud’ etc.) under the leadership of the Vladimir-Suzdal branch of the Rurikid Rus princes,
     
    Any idea of the proportionate mixture of these two seemingly different ethnic tribes that added their DNA to the development of the Russian ethnos? I suspect that it wasn't until the displaced Rurikid princes and their retinues ventured from the south in search of new patrimonies in the north that the Slavic element began to math the Finno-Ugric masses in the north.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  210. @AP
    @Bashibuzuk

    You need to get one of these:

    https://i.redd.it/5apnumfndit01.jpg

    https://static.boredpanda.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/pallas-cat-manul-10__880.jpg

    They are from Russia and Central Asia.

    People have bred domestic cats with Bengal cats and Servals to produce domesticated hybrids. Some Russian needs to start a breeding program to produce hybrids with these guys. For the glory of Russia. This would be much better use of money, and much cheaper than a huge yacht.

    The wrong people have money in Russia.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @Blinky Bill

    I have read that Mauls have a terribly aggressive behavior and are completely impossible to domesticate. Although I don’t know if anyone tried to breed them with domestic cats.

    I agree about the wrong people having money (and yachts) in RusFed.

  211. Bashibuzuk says:
    @AP
    @AltanBakshi


    Some places had it much worse, Baltics, Ireland, Medieval England, Austrian lands, Osman state etc…
     
    I suspect that PLC elite was much more Polish, Lithuanian and Ruthenian (all natives) than were the elites in Russia (initially Rurikids, before they assimilated, many of Tatar descent, to which were added plenty of Germans, Poles, Lithuanians, some Georgians). PLC had the Swedish Vasa dynasty, but Romanovs were Germans for far longer than the Vasas ruled Poland, which had outstanding Polish or Lithuanian rulers like Sobieski.

    England's Norman situation was even more extreme (eventually the Norman invaders basically wiped out the Anglo-Saxon elites, and Norman French was the English court language for generations), but it seems like Russia otherwise had the least native elite of all non-occupied European countries. And this phenomenon continued after the Revolution, which replaced the elite of largely Rurikid, German, Tatar, Polish descent with Caucasians, Jews, and Latvians. Since the time of Catherine II, Russia wasn't fully ruled by real Russians until the Khrushchev era.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @AltanBakshi

    I would add that Khruschev and Brezhnev had probably more sympathy towards Ukrainian regions than towards the Russian hinterland. I would say that the first true Russian in charge of Russian affairs was Gorbachev, who destroyed the Soviet Union. Yeltsin was also Russian, but his wife was Jewish. Putin is Russian, but is of Ugric ancestry as is the Patriarch Kiril. Of course these distinction are not really important, these are details. But still, these details are kind of revealing.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Bashibuzuk

    If these distinctions really are not that important, then what is it about them that is so revealing to you? Is there really some sort of coalition among Russians into Ugro-Finnic groupings vs more Slavic ones, as you seem to suggest?

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  212. @Bashibuzuk
    @Mr. Hack


    “мы имеем то, что имеем.”
     
    This is true, but one has to be careful about definitions, first one should define what exactly would be a state that would qualify as a "Russian National State" and then one should see if this definition is applicable to the RusFed. And of course, to define any National State we first must define what is its "titular nation: and how it is different from other nations and peoples.

    I have already mentioned once that in my opinion, Russia ethnos, formed mainly by the North-Eastern Slavic tribes (Slovene, Krivichi etc.) and the Finno-Ugric tribes (Muroma, Messhera, Chud' etc.) under the leadership of the Vladimir-Suzdal branch of the Rurikid Rus princes, did not evolve to complete its nation-building before the Bolshevik takeover. Various historical causes prevented from the arising of a clear national identity among the large Russian masses during the reign of the Romanov dynasty. Russian nationalist movement was rather limited in the Empire days.

    After the Bolshevik takeover, completing this nation-building become impossible, because a Soviet identity was imposed from the top. This nation-building should be completed today, with Russians finally becoming the masters in their own land, where they form more than 80% percent of the population. But it is the opposite that is happening right in front of our eyes, we witness a demographic and spiritual weakening of the Russian ethnos. A weakening that might well lead to a collapse of Russian ethnos in the next 2-3 generations.

    Therefore, unfortunately the nation-building of Russians is far from being a done deal and is perhaps something that might never be completed. And given that there cannot be a Russian Nation State in the absence of a Russian nation, we have to logically conclude that the current iteration of Statehood in the ancestral Russian lands is not Russia, but is something entirely different.

    That is why I (and some other Russian nationalists) prefer naming it RusFed (or even more sarcastically in Russian; Ресурсная Федерация - РесФед). Interestingly enough in official RusFedian lingo, the citizens of RidFed are not Russians, but some undefined Rossiyane, who can be of any ethnic origin whatsoever. This confirms that RusFed is not Russia.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon, @Yellowface Anon, @Mr. Hack, @Dmitry, @Mr. Hack

    If you want an ethno-state, grant minority-majority regions much greater levels of autonomy. Like what the Qing Dynasty or the Ottomans once did.

    I’m not talking about Russia’s southern neighbor, BTW. That’ll be crypto-separatist.

    Tho modern nationalism isn’t compatible to the traditional Chinese concept of all-under-heaven. Rather than ethno-states in the European sense, there was a large civilizational sphere, usually with a central imperial authority, then some more peripheral kingdoms adopting Chinese civilization wholesale and states further field for trade/tribute. India was similar, but much more decentralized and multipolar. It was still the case in the Qing Dynasty when the ruling elite was foreign but nativized.

    Then the Revolution imposed crude modernism and the principle of Five Races Under One Union (五族共和) which was Sun Yat-sen’s attempt to coalesce the 5 races (Han predominance + Hui, Mongol, Manchu, Tibetan) into one nation ideologically. The CCP kept with the program but added its own Soviet mentality of occasional neutral negligence and occasional compulsive assimilation. That was the wrong road – you could either be Chinese and be incorporated into the imperial state; adopt Chinese culture and social institutions wholesale while keeping your own language; or accept suzerainty and retain the native ruling class and culture (this was how Great Qing dealt with non-Han).

    • Thanks: Bashibuzuk
    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Yellowface Anon

    You got it wrong. The Great Qing was quite an aggreasive in it's sinification of minorities of Sichuan, Yunnan and Guangxi, unlike the Ming with it's Tusi system, who let the Southern and South Western tribal leaders to rule and keep their native laws as long as they continue paying of tribute to the emperor. Mongols and Tibetans were an exception to the rule in the great Qing, Mongols because they were the junior partners of Manchus in ruling of China, and Tibetans, because the emperor was a Dharmic universal ruler, or Chakravartin and therefore protector and patron of the Buddhist faith. There were many wars in which Manchus wisely forced imperial institutions upon tribal wildlings, like all Miao wars or Jinchuan campaigns. Also little before Xinhai revolution, Manchu ambans started to micromanage more and more local affairs in Tibet and Mongolia.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon

    , @Anatoly Karlin
    @Yellowface Anon

    Eliminating sovok federalism (de facto) has been one of the defining goals of Russian nationalism for decades. There have finally been major successes in that respect in the past few years, with Russians (and Bashkirs) in Tatarstan no longer being obligated to learn Russian. Promoting regional autonomies is a traditional foreign agenda that has always had the breakup of Russia as its ultimate goal.

    Yet again, it is unsurprising that Bashibuzuk "thanks" this comment.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @Yellowface Anon

  213. @Sean
    It is becoming clear that Biden is not up to non scripted interactions, which is why Putin was given such a platform with his marathon solo press conference at the end of G7.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mhQrf4ympQE
    Biden is not going to last very much longer before a policy of restricting access to him is imposed. The way his wife publicly took him by the hand and led him away when he was apparently wandering lost is something my mother would not do with my 86 year old dad. It's proto dementia, and he has less than a year.

    Replies: @iffen, @Yellowface Anon

    Just as planned, like how Kamala is the VP!

  214. @Bashibuzuk
    @Mr. Hack


    “мы имеем то, что имеем.”
     
    This is true, but one has to be careful about definitions, first one should define what exactly would be a state that would qualify as a "Russian National State" and then one should see if this definition is applicable to the RusFed. And of course, to define any National State we first must define what is its "titular nation: and how it is different from other nations and peoples.

    I have already mentioned once that in my opinion, Russia ethnos, formed mainly by the North-Eastern Slavic tribes (Slovene, Krivichi etc.) and the Finno-Ugric tribes (Muroma, Messhera, Chud' etc.) under the leadership of the Vladimir-Suzdal branch of the Rurikid Rus princes, did not evolve to complete its nation-building before the Bolshevik takeover. Various historical causes prevented from the arising of a clear national identity among the large Russian masses during the reign of the Romanov dynasty. Russian nationalist movement was rather limited in the Empire days.

    After the Bolshevik takeover, completing this nation-building become impossible, because a Soviet identity was imposed from the top. This nation-building should be completed today, with Russians finally becoming the masters in their own land, where they form more than 80% percent of the population. But it is the opposite that is happening right in front of our eyes, we witness a demographic and spiritual weakening of the Russian ethnos. A weakening that might well lead to a collapse of Russian ethnos in the next 2-3 generations.

    Therefore, unfortunately the nation-building of Russians is far from being a done deal and is perhaps something that might never be completed. And given that there cannot be a Russian Nation State in the absence of a Russian nation, we have to logically conclude that the current iteration of Statehood in the ancestral Russian lands is not Russia, but is something entirely different.

    That is why I (and some other Russian nationalists) prefer naming it RusFed (or even more sarcastically in Russian; Ресурсная Федерация - РесФед). Interestingly enough in official RusFedian lingo, the citizens of RidFed are not Russians, but some undefined Rossiyane, who can be of any ethnic origin whatsoever. This confirms that RusFed is not Russia.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon, @Yellowface Anon, @Mr. Hack, @Dmitry, @Mr. Hack

    I was planning to add to your reply with some basic understanding of Chinese nationalism, but Unz.com ate my comment and otherwise it might have led to a break-in by National Security. I didn’t advocate for separatism in that comment, but the topic is sensitive enough (ethnical minorities in China).

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @Yellowface Anon

    Well, Altan wrote once that ethnic Russian and Chinese nationalism should be suppressed because ethnic Russians and Han Chinese must serve as Empire-building human ressources.

    Don't know about the Han Chinese, but for ethnic Russians the Empire-building was a mixed blessing. It was literally built through their sweat, blood and tears for them to end up often bossed around by ethnic minorities, including in their own capital.

    Something clearly went wrong. Perhaps something should change in RusFed to ensure the long-term survival of Russian population, of its genotype, its psychotype and its culture.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  215. Bashibuzuk says:
    @Yellowface Anon
    @Bashibuzuk

    I was planning to add to your reply with some basic understanding of Chinese nationalism, but Unz.com ate my comment and otherwise it might have led to a break-in by National Security. I didn't advocate for separatism in that comment, but the topic is sensitive enough (ethnical minorities in China).

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    Well, Altan wrote once that ethnic Russian and Chinese nationalism should be suppressed because ethnic Russians and Han Chinese must serve as Empire-building human ressources.

    Don’t know about the Han Chinese, but for ethnic Russians the Empire-building was a mixed blessing. It was literally built through their sweat, blood and tears for them to end up often bossed around by ethnic minorities, including in their own capital.

    Something clearly went wrong. Perhaps something should change in RusFed to ensure the long-term survival of Russian population, of its genotype, its psychotype and its culture.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Bashibuzuk


    Well, Altan wrote once that ethnic Russian and Chinese nationalism should be suppressed because ethnic Russians and Han Chinese must serve as Empire-building human ressources.
     
    No, I wrote that nationalism is like a salt and should be used in moderation, that a too strong ethnic identity is bad for Slavs, as we all can notice from the present state of Slavic fragmentation into so many separate countries. There is safety in unity and common identity, in my opinion there is really no good reason for every Slovenia, Bosnia and Montenegro to exist. It is a honor for Russians and Han to be the foundation of great empires, just like Romans and Hellenes once were in their greatest glory!

    But yes, all neo-nazis and other such trash should be repressed.

    Replies: @Jatt Aryaa

  216. @Bashibuzuk
    @Mr. Hack


    “мы имеем то, что имеем.”
     
    This is true, but one has to be careful about definitions, first one should define what exactly would be a state that would qualify as a "Russian National State" and then one should see if this definition is applicable to the RusFed. And of course, to define any National State we first must define what is its "titular nation: and how it is different from other nations and peoples.

    I have already mentioned once that in my opinion, Russia ethnos, formed mainly by the North-Eastern Slavic tribes (Slovene, Krivichi etc.) and the Finno-Ugric tribes (Muroma, Messhera, Chud' etc.) under the leadership of the Vladimir-Suzdal branch of the Rurikid Rus princes, did not evolve to complete its nation-building before the Bolshevik takeover. Various historical causes prevented from the arising of a clear national identity among the large Russian masses during the reign of the Romanov dynasty. Russian nationalist movement was rather limited in the Empire days.

    After the Bolshevik takeover, completing this nation-building become impossible, because a Soviet identity was imposed from the top. This nation-building should be completed today, with Russians finally becoming the masters in their own land, where they form more than 80% percent of the population. But it is the opposite that is happening right in front of our eyes, we witness a demographic and spiritual weakening of the Russian ethnos. A weakening that might well lead to a collapse of Russian ethnos in the next 2-3 generations.

    Therefore, unfortunately the nation-building of Russians is far from being a done deal and is perhaps something that might never be completed. And given that there cannot be a Russian Nation State in the absence of a Russian nation, we have to logically conclude that the current iteration of Statehood in the ancestral Russian lands is not Russia, but is something entirely different.

    That is why I (and some other Russian nationalists) prefer naming it RusFed (or even more sarcastically in Russian; Ресурсная Федерация - РесФед). Interestingly enough in official RusFedian lingo, the citizens of RidFed are not Russians, but some undefined Rossiyane, who can be of any ethnic origin whatsoever. This confirms that RusFed is not Russia.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon, @Yellowface Anon, @Mr. Hack, @Dmitry, @Mr. Hack

    Aren’t the people mostly at the top levers of government Russians though? So in fact we have a majority of Russians voting mostly for politicians of Russian ethnos, all situated within “their own land”. Again perfection is hard to find and “мы имеем то, что имеем.”

    BTW, your second paragraph is a gem of conciseness and I couldn’t agree with you any more. What you’re in effect saying is that the Russian nationality never really had the opportunity to evolve to completion because the vagaries of imperialism, whether in the Empire period or in the Soviet one, stood in the way of normal nation/state evolution. Similarly Ukraine, never really had the opportunity to evolve fully into a normal nation/state too, due to the same forces of imperialism. Both Russia and Ukraine are chugging along well into the 21st century as incomplete nation states. Then there’s the ever present pressure of globalism that is working towards arresting the development of all forms of nation/state development. Not really a whole lot to remedy this situation that will need more than vyshivankas and balalaikas to turn things around. Nationalism doesn’t always sell well when one needs to put food on the kitchen table.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Mr. Hack

    Well the completion of nation state development did whole lot good for French, Swedes and Germans! Sad that some people got his strictly linear pseudo-Hegelian view of progress... Like there are phases that every nation must go through, and without such developments they will be forever crooked or something!

    , @Anatoly Karlin
    @Mr. Hack

    That is correct. Ethnic Russians are about 65% even of the "economic elites" (billionaires) and probably something like 85%-90% of the political ones. Yet another Bashibuzuk fantasy.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  217. @Bashibuzuk
    @Mr. Hack


    “мы имеем то, что имеем.”
     
    This is true, but one has to be careful about definitions, first one should define what exactly would be a state that would qualify as a "Russian National State" and then one should see if this definition is applicable to the RusFed. And of course, to define any National State we first must define what is its "titular nation: and how it is different from other nations and peoples.

    I have already mentioned once that in my opinion, Russia ethnos, formed mainly by the North-Eastern Slavic tribes (Slovene, Krivichi etc.) and the Finno-Ugric tribes (Muroma, Messhera, Chud' etc.) under the leadership of the Vladimir-Suzdal branch of the Rurikid Rus princes, did not evolve to complete its nation-building before the Bolshevik takeover. Various historical causes prevented from the arising of a clear national identity among the large Russian masses during the reign of the Romanov dynasty. Russian nationalist movement was rather limited in the Empire days.

    After the Bolshevik takeover, completing this nation-building become impossible, because a Soviet identity was imposed from the top. This nation-building should be completed today, with Russians finally becoming the masters in their own land, where they form more than 80% percent of the population. But it is the opposite that is happening right in front of our eyes, we witness a demographic and spiritual weakening of the Russian ethnos. A weakening that might well lead to a collapse of Russian ethnos in the next 2-3 generations.

    Therefore, unfortunately the nation-building of Russians is far from being a done deal and is perhaps something that might never be completed. And given that there cannot be a Russian Nation State in the absence of a Russian nation, we have to logically conclude that the current iteration of Statehood in the ancestral Russian lands is not Russia, but is something entirely different.

    That is why I (and some other Russian nationalists) prefer naming it RusFed (or even more sarcastically in Russian; Ресурсная Федерация - РесФед). Interestingly enough in official RusFedian lingo, the citizens of RidFed are not Russians, but some undefined Rossiyane, who can be of any ethnic origin whatsoever. This confirms that RusFed is not Russia.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon, @Yellowface Anon, @Mr. Hack, @Dmitry, @Mr. Hack

    I think it’s more easy to explain. Of course, today Russians are a majority and titular (but only in name, without other privileges) nationality of the Russian Federation, among other nationalities that can be more or less successful than the majority nationality.

    Adding to the complicated relationship, is that imperialism in Russian context was so successful in terms of land extension, that it has resulted in federation which includes nationalities derived from non-European, nonslavic nationalities (that can seem difficult to assimilate without losing European identity), sharing the same land borders, without a sea that separated many other empires from their colonies (e.g. British Empire, Spanish Empire). This is the life of a federation, union, empire, etc.

    There are sweet and bitter fruits of imperialism. You conquer historically foreign lands (good news for the power of the elite), but you also become responsible for the different nationalities and sometimes their exotic, non-assimilable culture and religions, which still live on the land which you conquered from them (and this not always unambiguously good news for the ordinary people on both sides, and eventually results in you becoming married to those nationalities, and them to you).

    If a national self-determining Russia ceded from areas that has nonslavic nationalities, and tries to minimize the existence of nonslavic nationalities in the Russian areas, then the country should be more governable, European, and not slave to the considerations of federal appeasement.

    Nationalism is based on the concept of self-determination of the peoples, and in the Russian context the result is a national liberation for both the non-titular nationalities, and for the titular nationality, that had become bound together by historical imperialism. Self-determination of Russians, also implies the ability of the self-determination of nonrussians – national liberation is more like a negative liberation: the liberation you experience after “divorce” from a toxic relationship.

    The late stage of imperialism, results in the titular nationality, having no more privileges, than the non-titular nationality. And in this sense, all sides share the negative consequences of the bad marriage which was created by the imperialism of the elites of previous centuries.

    However, I doubt that (even in this unlikely nationalist scenario) the reality of national self-determination for and from Russians, would match the rosy expectations, as we see in Ukraine.

    Ukraine is 98%+ slavic populations, and needless to say something every child would predict – there was no utopia in Ukraine.

    Being a European self-determined country, is not an instant shortcut to e.g. Swedish, Swiss or Netherlands living standards, which were based on a centuries of good governance and hard work.

    Similarly, there are plenty of examples of multinational places (including with majority third world origin nationalities e.g. Singapore, Bermuda), which are great places to live – usually as a result of a historical European tradition like the English legal system, that was carried to them by imperialism.

    AP’s posting photos above about the Manul. Of course, this is not a native cat to any of Europe. It comes from Altai Republic, Kazakhstan, Iran and India. It enters the Russian Empire in the 18th century, at the same time as the oriental Altai people.

    This is two centuries after Tenochtitlan, entered the Spanish Empire, after the massacre of the Aztec aristocracy. (Ancestors of the Aztecs, possibly originating in oriental races that were assimilated centuries later in the Russian Empire).

    A difference is that the Spanish imperialism had a sea between it, and in Russia all land. But in the 21st century Spain has been reflooded with the peoples from its former colonies, as in Russia is flooded with e.g. Uzbeks and Armenians, after those nationalities became nominally (but not economically) independent.

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk, AP
    • Thanks: AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @AP
    @Dmitry

    The obvious differences is that people from the former Spanish colonies are of partial Spanish descent and share the Spanish language and religion. Spain was the most successful of all colonial Empires in terms of spreading its culture without simply replacing the natives as the Brits did.

    Replies: @Rattus Norwegius, @Dmitry

    , @Anatoly Karlin
    @Dmitry


    ... then the country should be more governable, European, and not slave to the considerations of federal appeasement.
     
    The only regions posing a governance problem are DICh - tribal confederations that were only incorporated into Russia in mid-19C (so an extreme case and one where some arguments could be made for ditching them).

    ... which were based on a centuries of good governance and hard work.
     
    So far as today is concerned, based on half a century of capitalism. Czechia was as rich as Austria in the 1930s.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  218. @Bashibuzuk
    @AP

    I would add that Khruschev and Brezhnev had probably more sympathy towards Ukrainian regions than towards the Russian hinterland. I would say that the first true Russian in charge of Russian affairs was Gorbachev, who destroyed the Soviet Union. Yeltsin was also Russian, but his wife was Jewish. Putin is Russian, but is of Ugric ancestry as is the Patriarch Kiril. Of course these distinction are not really important, these are details. But still, these details are kind of revealing.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    If these distinctions really are not that important, then what is it about them that is so revealing to you? Is there really some sort of coalition among Russians into Ugro-Finnic groupings vs more Slavic ones, as you seem to suggest?

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @Mr. Hack

    It reveals that Russian ethnos was not really good at suppressing and assimilating local minor ethnic identities. Russians as a people were never interested in that. As I wrote a couple of times that part of my family were villagers from the Penza region. The village (a typical poor hinterland Great Russian village in the Tsarist Russia days) was in the part of Penza oblast' were Slavic (that is ethnic Russian) villages are interspersed between Tatar and Mordvinian ones. It was in Muscovy times the marches protected by defensive notches against the frequent Tatar raids and 600 years later each ethnic group there was still aware of its ancestry.

    That has always been the typical Russian attitude: I basically don't care who you are, what you worship or how you organize your life as long as you don't interfere with my life and don't get on my nerves. This attitude is a world away from the typical normative, standardizing, unifying and suppressing nation-building European attitude.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon

  219. @AP
    @AltanBakshi


    Some places had it much worse, Baltics, Ireland, Medieval England, Austrian lands, Osman state etc…
     
    I suspect that PLC elite was much more Polish, Lithuanian and Ruthenian (all natives) than were the elites in Russia (initially Rurikids, before they assimilated, many of Tatar descent, to which were added plenty of Germans, Poles, Lithuanians, some Georgians). PLC had the Swedish Vasa dynasty, but Romanovs were Germans for far longer than the Vasas ruled Poland, which had outstanding Polish or Lithuanian rulers like Sobieski.

    England's Norman situation was even more extreme (eventually the Norman invaders basically wiped out the Anglo-Saxon elites, and Norman French was the English court language for generations), but it seems like Russia otherwise had the least native elite of all non-occupied European countries. And this phenomenon continued after the Revolution, which replaced the elite of largely Rurikid, German, Tatar, Polish descent with Caucasians, Jews, and Latvians. Since the time of Catherine II, Russia wasn't fully ruled by real Russians until the Khrushchev era.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @AltanBakshi

    I suspect that PLC elite was much more Polish, Lithuanian and Ruthenian (all natives) than were the elites in Russia (initially Rurikids, before they assimilated, many of Tatar descent, to which were added plenty of Germans, Poles, Lithuanians, some Georgians). PLC had the Swedish Vasa dynasty, but Romanovs were Germans for far longer than the Vasas ruled Poland, which had outstanding Polish or Lithuanian rulers like Sobieski.

    As we well know, PLC was a personal union, in the Lithuanian part Ruthenian and Lithuanian native elites got Polonized, well at least culturally and religiously. You are such a PLC fan boy that it doesn’t even matter what I will write, but in the Lithuanian part elites increasingly spoke not Ruthenian or Lithuanian, which were the native languages of Lithuania, but Polish, also outside of ethnic Lithuanian lands majority of population was Orthodox or Greek Catholics, therefore elites of duchy of Lithuania did mostly not share the language nor the religion of their subjects, in such way the situation was more extreme than in Russia, same could be said of Ukrainian, Volhynian and Galician parts of Poland. As numerous Ruthenian/Ukrainian revolts and massacres of local Poles and Jews show us, there was no ethnic-cultural or religious unity in Poland.

    AP England herself was ruled by Dutch and German kings from the time of William III to, well to present era. Does Glorious revolution or Hanover say anything, for 18th century English kings usually spoke better German than English…

    PLC is one of the shittiest European major powers ever to exist, by the means of a lucky marriage, Szlachta gained an empire made by Lithuanians, had it’s heyday only for a century, before getting utterly devastated by Sweden and Cossack revolts, afterwards continuous strife between unruly members of elite, who were ready to sell their country for the highest bidder, periodic civil wars, weak kings, PLC was an eastern European proto-oligarchy, utter trash and waste.

    Oh wait what were the Bourbons and Habsburgs of the Spain? Or the current royal dynasty of Sweden, which was established by one of the marshals of Napoleon? What about Greeks, Romanians and Bulgarians who were ruled by men who were fully German by their heritage.

    Stop AP this sillyness, Russia’s situation was no way extreme.

    [MORE]

    And Bashi your history narrative makes niggers out of the Russians. “White man enslaved my ancestors,” just replace white man with German or something and then you have Bashi’s view of Russian history!

    • Agree: Yevardian
    • Replies: @AP
    @AltanBakshi


    in the Lithuanian part elites increasingly spoke not Ruthenian or Lithuanian, which were the native languages of Lithuania, but Polish, also outside of ethnic Lithuanian lands majority of population was Orthodox or Greek Catholics, therefore elites of duchy of Lithuania did mostly not share the language nor the religion of their subjects, in such way the situation was more extreme than in Russia
     
    Yes but the elites were primarily natives. It is their privilege to choose whether they or their people will be pagan or Christian or what language they speak. Russian elites were to large extent of non-native descent (German, Norse, Lithuanian, Tatar, Georgian) speaking Russian, those of PLC were natives, locals, who often chose to speak Polish in Rus and Lithuanian
    lands. It’s an interesting contrast.

    AP England herself was ruled by Dutch and German kings from the time of William III to, well to present era
     
    You are narrowing the subject to royal families. I was speaking of entire ruling or elite classes. Yes many countries had foreign kings but few had such a foreign ruling class. Only England after the Norman invasion was more extreme, when it comes to independent countries.

    PLC is one of the shittiest European major powers ever to exist, by the means of a lucky marriage, Szlachta gained an empire made by Lithuanians, had it’s heyday only for a century
     
    It was a rough neighborhood. Hapsburgs were more successful, but PLC outlasted the second and third German Empires who were in a similar place.
  220. @Bashibuzuk
    @Yellowface Anon

    Well, Altan wrote once that ethnic Russian and Chinese nationalism should be suppressed because ethnic Russians and Han Chinese must serve as Empire-building human ressources.

    Don't know about the Han Chinese, but for ethnic Russians the Empire-building was a mixed blessing. It was literally built through their sweat, blood and tears for them to end up often bossed around by ethnic minorities, including in their own capital.

    Something clearly went wrong. Perhaps something should change in RusFed to ensure the long-term survival of Russian population, of its genotype, its psychotype and its culture.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    Well, Altan wrote once that ethnic Russian and Chinese nationalism should be suppressed because ethnic Russians and Han Chinese must serve as Empire-building human ressources.

    No, I wrote that nationalism is like a salt and should be used in moderation, that a too strong ethnic identity is bad for Slavs, as we all can notice from the present state of Slavic fragmentation into so many separate countries. There is safety in unity and common identity, in my opinion there is really no good reason for every Slovenia, Bosnia and Montenegro to exist. It is a honor for Russians and Han to be the foundation of great empires, just like Romans and Hellenes once were in their greatest glory!

    But yes, all neo-nazis and other such trash should be repressed.

    • Replies: @Jatt Aryaa
    @AltanBakshi

    𝗜𝘁 𝗶𝘀 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗿𝗲𝗳𝗼𝗿𝗲 𝗻𝗼𝘁 𝘀𝘂𝗿𝗽𝗿𝗶𝘀𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝘁𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝗶𝗻 𝘁𝗵𝗶𝘀 𝘃𝗲𝗿𝘆 𝗽𝗲𝗿𝗶𝗼𝗱 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗛𝗮𝗿𝗮𝗽𝗽𝗮𝗻 𝗱𝗲𝗰𝗹𝗶𝗻𝗲, 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗶𝗻𝗱𝗶𝗰𝗶𝗻𝗲 𝗼𝗿𝗶𝗴𝗶𝗻 𝗵𝘂𝗺𝗽𝗲𝗱 𝗰𝗮𝘁𝘁𝗹𝗲 𝗺𝗮𝗸𝗲𝘀 𝗮 𝘀𝘂𝗱𝗱𝗲𝗻 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗺𝗮𝘀𝘀𝗶𝘃𝗲 𝗶𝗻𝘁𝗿𝘂𝘀𝗶𝗼𝗻 𝗶𝗻 𝗮𝗹𝗹 𝗡𝗲𝗮𝗿 𝗘𝗮𝘀𝘁𝗲𝗿𝗻 𝘀𝗼𝗰𝗶𝗲𝘁𝗶𝗲𝘀, 𝗿𝗶𝗴𝗵𝘁 𝗮𝗿𝗼𝘂𝗻𝗱 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝘁𝗶𝗺𝗲 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗮𝗿𝗿𝗶𝘃𝗮𝗹 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗜𝗻𝗱𝗼-𝗘𝘂𝗿𝗼𝗽𝗲𝗮𝗻𝘀 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗯𝗲𝗰𝗼𝗺𝗲𝘀 𝗮𝗻 𝗶𝗻𝘁𝗿𝗶𝗻𝘀𝗶𝗰 𝗽𝗮𝗿𝘁 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗶𝗿 𝗰𝘂𝗹𝘁𝘂𝗿𝗲.

    https://www.brownpundits.com/2021/06/13/the-emergence-of-chariot-driven-warrior-aristocracy-of-the-bronze-age/

    𝗧𝗼𝗱𝗮𝘆, 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗜𝗻𝗱𝗶𝗰𝗶𝗻𝗲 𝗭𝗲𝗯𝘂 𝗮𝗱𝗺𝗶𝘅𝘁𝘂𝗿𝗲 𝗶𝗻 𝗳𝗼𝘂𝗻𝗱 𝗶𝗻 𝗻𝗮𝘁𝗶𝘃𝗲 𝗰𝗮𝘁𝘁𝗹𝗲 𝗳𝗿𝗼𝗺 𝗜𝗿𝗮𝗻 𝘁𝗼 𝗖𝗮𝘂𝗰𝗮𝘀𝘂𝘀 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗶𝗻𝘁𝗼 𝗔𝗿𝗮𝗯𝗶𝗮 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗮𝗰𝗿𝗼𝘀𝘀 𝗮𝗹𝗹 𝗼𝗳 𝗡𝗲𝗮𝗿 𝗘𝗮𝘀𝘁, 𝗶𝗻 𝗘𝗴𝘆𝗽𝘁 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗶𝗻 𝗦𝗼𝘂𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗿𝗻 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗘𝗮𝘀𝘁𝗲𝗿𝗻 𝗘𝘂𝗿𝗼𝗽𝗲𝗮𝗻 𝗻𝗮𝘁𝗶𝘃𝗲 𝗰𝗮𝘁𝘁𝗹𝗲 𝗮𝘀 𝗜 𝗵𝗮𝘃𝗲 𝗱𝗶𝘀𝗰𝘂𝘀𝘀𝗲𝗱 𝗶𝗻 𝗺𝘆 𝗲𝗮𝗿𝗹𝗶𝗲𝗿 𝗽𝗼𝘀𝘁𝘀 (𝗵𝗲𝗿𝗲 & 𝗵𝗲𝗿𝗲). 𝗔𝗹𝗹 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝘀𝗲 𝗿𝗲𝗴𝗶𝗼𝗻𝘀 𝗮𝗹𝘀𝗼 𝗵𝗮𝘃𝗲 𝗽𝗼𝗽𝘂𝗹𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻𝘀 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗜𝗻𝗱𝗶𝗮𝗻 𝗯𝘂𝗳𝗳𝗮𝗹𝗼. 𝗧𝗵𝗲 𝗠𝗼𝘇𝘇𝗮𝗿𝗲𝗹𝗹𝗮 𝗰𝗵𝗲𝗲𝘀𝗲 𝗺𝗮𝗱𝗲 𝗯𝘆 𝗜𝘁𝗮𝗹𝗶𝗮𝗻𝘀 𝗶𝘀 𝗳𝗿𝗼𝗺 𝗺𝗶𝗹𝗸 𝗼𝗳 𝗻𝗮𝘁𝗶𝘃𝗲 𝗯𝘂𝗳𝗳𝗮𝗹𝗼𝗲𝘀 𝗱𝗲𝘀𝗰𝗲𝗻𝗱𝗲𝗱 𝗳𝗿𝗼𝗺 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝘀𝗲 𝗲𝗮𝗿𝗹𝘆 𝗯𝗼𝘃𝗶𝗱 𝗺𝗶𝗴𝗿𝗮𝗻𝘁𝘀. 𝗧𝗵𝗲 𝗹𝗮𝗿𝗴𝗲 𝘀𝗰𝗮𝗹𝗲 𝗶𝗻𝘁𝗿𝗼𝗱𝘂𝗰𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝘀𝗲 𝗱𝗼𝗺𝗲𝘀𝘁𝗶𝗰 𝗯𝗼𝘃𝗶𝗱𝘀 𝗶𝗻𝘁𝗼 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝘀𝗲 𝗿𝗲𝗴𝗶𝗼𝗻𝘀 𝘁𝗼𝗼𝗸 𝗽𝗹𝗮𝗰𝗲 𝗶𝗻 𝗮 𝗽𝗲𝗿𝗶𝗼𝗱 𝘀𝗹𝗶𝗴𝗵𝘁𝗹𝘆 𝗮𝗳𝘁𝗲𝗿 𝟰𝟬𝟬𝟬 𝘆𝗯𝗽, 𝗿𝗶𝗴𝗵𝘁 𝗮𝗿𝗼𝘂𝗻𝗱 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝘁𝗶𝗺𝗲 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗱𝗲𝗰𝗹𝗶𝗻𝗲 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗛𝗮𝗿𝗮𝗽𝗽𝗮𝗻 𝗰𝗶𝘃𝗶𝗹𝗶𝘇𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻.

    𝗪𝗲 𝗺𝗮𝘆 𝗼𝗯𝘀𝗲𝗿𝘃𝗲 𝘁𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝗰𝗮𝘁𝘁𝗹𝗲 𝗵𝗲𝗹𝗱 𝘀𝗽𝗲𝗰𝗶𝗮𝗹 𝗶𝗺𝗽𝗼𝗿𝘁𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲 𝗳𝗼𝗿 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗜𝗻𝗱𝗼-𝗘𝘂𝗿𝗼𝗽𝗲𝗮𝗻 𝗽𝗲𝗼𝗽𝗹𝗲. 𝗜𝘁 𝗶𝘀 𝗾𝘂𝗶𝘁𝗲 𝗹𝗶𝗸𝗲𝗹𝘆 𝘁𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝗶𝗻 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗶𝗿 𝗺𝗶𝗴𝗿𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻𝘀, 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝘃𝗮𝗿𝗶𝗼𝘂𝘀 𝗜𝗘 𝗴𝗿𝗼𝘂𝗽𝘀 𝗺𝘂𝘀𝘁 𝗵𝗮𝘃𝗲 𝘁𝗮𝗸𝗲𝗻 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗶𝗿 𝗰𝗮𝘁𝘁𝗹𝗲 𝗮𝗹𝗼𝗻𝗴 𝘄𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗺 𝗮𝘀 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝘆 𝗺𝗼𝘃𝗲𝗱 𝗼𝘂𝘁 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗶𝗿 𝗵𝗼𝗺𝗲𝗹𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗶𝗻 𝘀𝗲𝗮𝗿𝗰𝗵 𝗼𝗳 𝗴𝗿𝗲𝗲𝗻𝗲𝗿 𝗽𝗮𝘀𝘁𝘂𝗿𝗲𝘀.

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  221. @Yellowface Anon
    @Bashibuzuk

    If you want an ethno-state, grant minority-majority regions much greater levels of autonomy. Like what the Qing Dynasty or the Ottomans once did.

    I'm not talking about Russia's southern neighbor, BTW. That'll be crypto-separatist.

    Tho modern nationalism isn't compatible to the traditional Chinese concept of all-under-heaven. Rather than ethno-states in the European sense, there was a large civilizational sphere, usually with a central imperial authority, then some more peripheral kingdoms adopting Chinese civilization wholesale and states further field for trade/tribute. India was similar, but much more decentralized and multipolar. It was still the case in the Qing Dynasty when the ruling elite was foreign but nativized.

    Then the Revolution imposed crude modernism and the principle of Five Races Under One Union (五族共和) which was Sun Yat-sen's attempt to coalesce the 5 races (Han predominance + Hui, Mongol, Manchu, Tibetan) into one nation ideologically. The CCP kept with the program but added its own Soviet mentality of occasional neutral negligence and occasional compulsive assimilation. That was the wrong road - you could either be Chinese and be incorporated into the imperial state; adopt Chinese culture and social institutions wholesale while keeping your own language; or accept suzerainty and retain the native ruling class and culture (this was how Great Qing dealt with non-Han).

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Anatoly Karlin

    You got it wrong. The Great Qing was quite an aggreasive in it’s sinification of minorities of Sichuan, Yunnan and Guangxi, unlike the Ming with it’s Tusi system, who let the Southern and South Western tribal leaders to rule and keep their native laws as long as they continue paying of tribute to the emperor. Mongols and Tibetans were an exception to the rule in the great Qing, Mongols because they were the junior partners of Manchus in ruling of China, and Tibetans, because the emperor was a Dharmic universal ruler, or Chakravartin and therefore protector and patron of the Buddhist faith. There were many wars in which Manchus wisely forced imperial institutions upon tribal wildlings, like all Miao wars or Jinchuan campaigns. Also little before Xinhai revolution, Manchu ambans started to micromanage more and more local affairs in Tibet and Mongolia.

    • Replies: @Yellowface Anon
    @AltanBakshi

    I thought my comment wasn't published! That was indeed the case, and these smaller tribes were ignored even in ROC times (remember what I said 5 Races under One Union?)

    What went wrong for China is the same as Russia (under the Soviets as in now) - trying to do homogenous ethnic nationalism over the remains of a multicultural empire. It was simply substituting the identity of (late) Osman Sultan with the majorities' national identity.

    To build French nationalism Occitan identity had to be rolled over. German and Italian unification dealt the final blow to countless local "dialects" first leveled by the selection of a unified language. If you count local language and cultural identity as possible nationalism, ethnical nationalism has always been a dream since there isn't a coherent ethnos within a "nation". You can make a Rothbardian case of secession down to the commune and hamlet.

    This is why replacing the Westphalian nation-state with collections of smaller units under a cultural sphere (or the other way around - putting a nominal authority above all), will be better for civilizations. I don't mean the EU model!

    (This is a historical analysis, not political statement. I DO NOT advocate separatism or overturning CCP's authority)

  222. @Mr. Hack
    @Bashibuzuk

    Aren't the people mostly at the top levers of government Russians though? So in fact we have a majority of Russians voting mostly for politicians of Russian ethnos, all situated within "their own land". Again perfection is hard to find and “мы имеем то, что имеем.”

    BTW, your second paragraph is a gem of conciseness and I couldn't agree with you any more. What you're in effect saying is that the Russian nationality never really had the opportunity to evolve to completion because the vagaries of imperialism, whether in the Empire period or in the Soviet one, stood in the way of normal nation/state evolution. Similarly Ukraine, never really had the opportunity to evolve fully into a normal nation/state too, due to the same forces of imperialism. Both Russia and Ukraine are chugging along well into the 21st century as incomplete nation states. Then there's the ever present pressure of globalism that is working towards arresting the development of all forms of nation/state development. Not really a whole lot to remedy this situation that will need more than vyshivankas and balalaikas to turn things around. Nationalism doesn't always sell well when one needs to put food on the kitchen table.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Anatoly Karlin

    Well the completion of nation state development did whole lot good for French, Swedes and Germans! Sad that some people got his strictly linear pseudo-Hegelian view of progress… Like there are phases that every nation must go through, and without such developments they will be forever crooked or something!

  223. @AltanBakshi
    @Bashibuzuk


    Well, Altan wrote once that ethnic Russian and Chinese nationalism should be suppressed because ethnic Russians and Han Chinese must serve as Empire-building human ressources.
     
    No, I wrote that nationalism is like a salt and should be used in moderation, that a too strong ethnic identity is bad for Slavs, as we all can notice from the present state of Slavic fragmentation into so many separate countries. There is safety in unity and common identity, in my opinion there is really no good reason for every Slovenia, Bosnia and Montenegro to exist. It is a honor for Russians and Han to be the foundation of great empires, just like Romans and Hellenes once were in their greatest glory!

    But yes, all neo-nazis and other such trash should be repressed.

    Replies: @Jatt Aryaa

    𝗜𝘁 𝗶𝘀 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗿𝗲𝗳𝗼𝗿𝗲 𝗻𝗼𝘁 𝘀𝘂𝗿𝗽𝗿𝗶𝘀𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝘁𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝗶𝗻 𝘁𝗵𝗶𝘀 𝘃𝗲𝗿𝘆 𝗽𝗲𝗿𝗶𝗼𝗱 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗛𝗮𝗿𝗮𝗽𝗽𝗮𝗻 𝗱𝗲𝗰𝗹𝗶𝗻𝗲, 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗶𝗻𝗱𝗶𝗰𝗶𝗻𝗲 𝗼𝗿𝗶𝗴𝗶𝗻 𝗵𝘂𝗺𝗽𝗲𝗱 𝗰𝗮𝘁𝘁𝗹𝗲 𝗺𝗮𝗸𝗲𝘀 𝗮 𝘀𝘂𝗱𝗱𝗲𝗻 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗺𝗮𝘀𝘀𝗶𝘃𝗲 𝗶𝗻𝘁𝗿𝘂𝘀𝗶𝗼𝗻 𝗶𝗻 𝗮𝗹𝗹 𝗡𝗲𝗮𝗿 𝗘𝗮𝘀𝘁𝗲𝗿𝗻 𝘀𝗼𝗰𝗶𝗲𝘁𝗶𝗲𝘀, 𝗿𝗶𝗴𝗵𝘁 𝗮𝗿𝗼𝘂𝗻𝗱 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝘁𝗶𝗺𝗲 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗮𝗿𝗿𝗶𝘃𝗮𝗹 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗜𝗻𝗱𝗼-𝗘𝘂𝗿𝗼𝗽𝗲𝗮𝗻𝘀 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗯𝗲𝗰𝗼𝗺𝗲𝘀 𝗮𝗻 𝗶𝗻𝘁𝗿𝗶𝗻𝘀𝗶𝗰 𝗽𝗮𝗿𝘁 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗶𝗿 𝗰𝘂𝗹𝘁𝘂𝗿𝗲.

    https://www.brownpundits.com/2021/06/13/the-emergence-of-chariot-driven-warrior-aristocracy-of-the-bronze-age/

    𝗧𝗼𝗱𝗮𝘆, 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗜𝗻𝗱𝗶𝗰𝗶𝗻𝗲 𝗭𝗲𝗯𝘂 𝗮𝗱𝗺𝗶𝘅𝘁𝘂𝗿𝗲 𝗶𝗻 𝗳𝗼𝘂𝗻𝗱 𝗶𝗻 𝗻𝗮𝘁𝗶𝘃𝗲 𝗰𝗮𝘁𝘁𝗹𝗲 𝗳𝗿𝗼𝗺 𝗜𝗿𝗮𝗻 𝘁𝗼 𝗖𝗮𝘂𝗰𝗮𝘀𝘂𝘀 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗶𝗻𝘁𝗼 𝗔𝗿𝗮𝗯𝗶𝗮 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗮𝗰𝗿𝗼𝘀𝘀 𝗮𝗹𝗹 𝗼𝗳 𝗡𝗲𝗮𝗿 𝗘𝗮𝘀𝘁, 𝗶𝗻 𝗘𝗴𝘆𝗽𝘁 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗶𝗻 𝗦𝗼𝘂𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗿𝗻 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗘𝗮𝘀𝘁𝗲𝗿𝗻 𝗘𝘂𝗿𝗼𝗽𝗲𝗮𝗻 𝗻𝗮𝘁𝗶𝘃𝗲 𝗰𝗮𝘁𝘁𝗹𝗲 𝗮𝘀 𝗜 𝗵𝗮𝘃𝗲 𝗱𝗶𝘀𝗰𝘂𝘀𝘀𝗲𝗱 𝗶𝗻 𝗺𝘆 𝗲𝗮𝗿𝗹𝗶𝗲𝗿 𝗽𝗼𝘀𝘁𝘀 (𝗵𝗲𝗿𝗲 & 𝗵𝗲𝗿𝗲). 𝗔𝗹𝗹 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝘀𝗲 𝗿𝗲𝗴𝗶𝗼𝗻𝘀 𝗮𝗹𝘀𝗼 𝗵𝗮𝘃𝗲 𝗽𝗼𝗽𝘂𝗹𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻𝘀 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗜𝗻𝗱𝗶𝗮𝗻 𝗯𝘂𝗳𝗳𝗮𝗹𝗼. 𝗧𝗵𝗲 𝗠𝗼𝘇𝘇𝗮𝗿𝗲𝗹𝗹𝗮 𝗰𝗵𝗲𝗲𝘀𝗲 𝗺𝗮𝗱𝗲 𝗯𝘆 𝗜𝘁𝗮𝗹𝗶𝗮𝗻𝘀 𝗶𝘀 𝗳𝗿𝗼𝗺 𝗺𝗶𝗹𝗸 𝗼𝗳 𝗻𝗮𝘁𝗶𝘃𝗲 𝗯𝘂𝗳𝗳𝗮𝗹𝗼𝗲𝘀 𝗱𝗲𝘀𝗰𝗲𝗻𝗱𝗲𝗱 𝗳𝗿𝗼𝗺 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝘀𝗲 𝗲𝗮𝗿𝗹𝘆 𝗯𝗼𝘃𝗶𝗱 𝗺𝗶𝗴𝗿𝗮𝗻𝘁𝘀. 𝗧𝗵𝗲 𝗹𝗮𝗿𝗴𝗲 𝘀𝗰𝗮𝗹𝗲 𝗶𝗻𝘁𝗿𝗼𝗱𝘂𝗰𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝘀𝗲 𝗱𝗼𝗺𝗲𝘀𝘁𝗶𝗰 𝗯𝗼𝘃𝗶𝗱𝘀 𝗶𝗻𝘁𝗼 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝘀𝗲 𝗿𝗲𝗴𝗶𝗼𝗻𝘀 𝘁𝗼𝗼𝗸 𝗽𝗹𝗮𝗰𝗲 𝗶𝗻 𝗮 𝗽𝗲𝗿𝗶𝗼𝗱 𝘀𝗹𝗶𝗴𝗵𝘁𝗹𝘆 𝗮𝗳𝘁𝗲𝗿 𝟰𝟬𝟬𝟬 𝘆𝗯𝗽, 𝗿𝗶𝗴𝗵𝘁 𝗮𝗿𝗼𝘂𝗻𝗱 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝘁𝗶𝗺𝗲 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗱𝗲𝗰𝗹𝗶𝗻𝗲 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗛𝗮𝗿𝗮𝗽𝗽𝗮𝗻 𝗰𝗶𝘃𝗶𝗹𝗶𝘇𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻.

    𝗪𝗲 𝗺𝗮𝘆 𝗼𝗯𝘀𝗲𝗿𝘃𝗲 𝘁𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝗰𝗮𝘁𝘁𝗹𝗲 𝗵𝗲𝗹𝗱 𝘀𝗽𝗲𝗰𝗶𝗮𝗹 𝗶𝗺𝗽𝗼𝗿𝘁𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲 𝗳𝗼𝗿 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗜𝗻𝗱𝗼-𝗘𝘂𝗿𝗼𝗽𝗲𝗮𝗻 𝗽𝗲𝗼𝗽𝗹𝗲. 𝗜𝘁 𝗶𝘀 𝗾𝘂𝗶𝘁𝗲 𝗹𝗶𝗸𝗲𝗹𝘆 𝘁𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝗶𝗻 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗶𝗿 𝗺𝗶𝗴𝗿𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻𝘀, 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝘃𝗮𝗿𝗶𝗼𝘂𝘀 𝗜𝗘 𝗴𝗿𝗼𝘂𝗽𝘀 𝗺𝘂𝘀𝘁 𝗵𝗮𝘃𝗲 𝘁𝗮𝗸𝗲𝗻 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗶𝗿 𝗰𝗮𝘁𝘁𝗹𝗲 𝗮𝗹𝗼𝗻𝗴 𝘄𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗺 𝗮𝘀 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝘆 𝗺𝗼𝘃𝗲𝗱 𝗼𝘂𝘁 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗶𝗿 𝗵𝗼𝗺𝗲𝗹𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗶𝗻 𝘀𝗲𝗮𝗿𝗰𝗵 𝗼𝗳 𝗴𝗿𝗲𝗲𝗻𝗲𝗿 𝗽𝗮𝘀𝘁𝘂𝗿𝗲𝘀.

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Jatt Aryaa


    𝗧𝗵𝗲 𝗹𝗮𝗿𝗴𝗲 𝘀𝗰𝗮𝗹𝗲 𝗶𝗻𝘁𝗿𝗼𝗱𝘂𝗰𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝘀𝗲 𝗱𝗼𝗺𝗲𝘀𝘁𝗶𝗰 𝗯𝗼𝘃𝗶𝗱𝘀 𝗶𝗻𝘁𝗼 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝘀𝗲 𝗿𝗲𝗴𝗶𝗼𝗻𝘀 𝘁𝗼𝗼𝗸 𝗽𝗹𝗮𝗰𝗲 𝗶𝗻 𝗮 𝗽𝗲𝗿𝗶𝗼𝗱 𝘀𝗹𝗶𝗴𝗵𝘁𝗹𝘆 𝗮𝗳𝘁𝗲𝗿 𝟰𝟬𝟬𝟬 𝘆𝗯𝗽, 𝗿𝗶𝗴𝗵𝘁 𝗮𝗿𝗼𝘂𝗻𝗱 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝘁𝗶𝗺𝗲 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗱𝗲𝗰𝗹𝗶𝗻𝗲 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗛𝗮𝗿𝗮𝗽𝗽𝗮𝗻 𝗰𝗶𝘃𝗶𝗹𝗶𝘇𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻.
     
    So about 500 years before Aryan invasions of subcontinent. Well Indus culture or Harappan civilization had trade contacts with the countries of fertile crescent. So no wonder if Zebus got by that way there, and later to Italy

    Both Nordicists and Hindutva nationalists are deluded and represent two opposite extremes. Former believe that Aryans were direct ancestors of Germanics, and latter believe that they were native sons of India. Well both theories are false, though Nordicists are probably more deluded. Aryans were mostly Iranic, or more accurately Scytho-Iranics of Turan. There are no people left who have the same genetic composition as Aryans of Central Asia had 3500 years ago. Most closely related populations nowadays are probably Pamiris, Russians, some inhabitants of Volga-Ural region, but Northern Indians, or inhabitants of Aryavarta have a substantial heritage from Aryans, from 30-40% of Punjabis and Kashmiris to 20-30% in the rest of Northern India, but Central Asian Aryans had also 10-20% of East Asian admixture, and they were quite fair, but fair hair and blue eyes are extremely recessive, so such characteristics are easily lost through mixing of couple generations.

    Anyway, Aryans as a race have ascended to a higher state of existence.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @Rattus Norwegius

  224. But maybe I was too quick to condemn Bashi’s historical narrative. Such narrative can be utilised/weaponised and used for Russia’s gain. Bashi, yes you are correct, Russians are PoC, who were exploited and enslaved by the white people through centuries. How Merkel condescendingly dares to demand something from the Russia, when her ancestors killed 25 million Russians in the Russian Holocaust, also known by the name of Second World War, and for generations kept Russians like cattle in inhuman conditions of serfdom. Reparations now! Russian Lives Matter# SlavNotSlave#

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @AltanBakshi

    Slavs are directly descended from the Corded Ware folks. Corded Ware folks lived in all o Northern Central Europe up to today's Netherlands.

    Basically, one could build a narrative of eternal struggle of the Corded Ware descended people against the unrelenting aggression by the Western European Bell Beaker derived ethnic groups. Then one makes the Tollensee battle into the foundation of a Corded Ware derived identity et voilà!

    https://www.military-history.org/news/new-discoveries-throw-fresh-light-on-bronze-age-battle.htm

    Не забудем, не простим Толенскую битву!

    Western Europeans, give us back our half of Europe up to Netherlands and go back to Spain where your Mediterranean swarthy ancestors swarmed from. Or pay reparations for our Nakba and thousands years old Apartheid...

    😉

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    , @Coconuts
    @AltanBakshi


    How Merkel condescendingly dares to demand something from the Russia, when her ancestors killed 25 million Russians in the Russian Holocaust...
     
    Well, she is a woman:

    'Standing up for the sisterhood against systemic misogyny and patriarchal subjugation. Interest in borders and patrilinear descent is rape culture'.
    '
    These are the kind of subsequent moves someone invested in intersectionality is likely to make. Also, any reaction to these claims is just a manifestation of male privilege preserving epistemic pushback.

    These are a couple of reasons not to spread this kind of ideology.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  225. @Jatt Aryaa
    @AltanBakshi

    𝗜𝘁 𝗶𝘀 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗿𝗲𝗳𝗼𝗿𝗲 𝗻𝗼𝘁 𝘀𝘂𝗿𝗽𝗿𝗶𝘀𝗶𝗻𝗴 𝘁𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝗶𝗻 𝘁𝗵𝗶𝘀 𝘃𝗲𝗿𝘆 𝗽𝗲𝗿𝗶𝗼𝗱 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗛𝗮𝗿𝗮𝗽𝗽𝗮𝗻 𝗱𝗲𝗰𝗹𝗶𝗻𝗲, 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗶𝗻𝗱𝗶𝗰𝗶𝗻𝗲 𝗼𝗿𝗶𝗴𝗶𝗻 𝗵𝘂𝗺𝗽𝗲𝗱 𝗰𝗮𝘁𝘁𝗹𝗲 𝗺𝗮𝗸𝗲𝘀 𝗮 𝘀𝘂𝗱𝗱𝗲𝗻 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗺𝗮𝘀𝘀𝗶𝘃𝗲 𝗶𝗻𝘁𝗿𝘂𝘀𝗶𝗼𝗻 𝗶𝗻 𝗮𝗹𝗹 𝗡𝗲𝗮𝗿 𝗘𝗮𝘀𝘁𝗲𝗿𝗻 𝘀𝗼𝗰𝗶𝗲𝘁𝗶𝗲𝘀, 𝗿𝗶𝗴𝗵𝘁 𝗮𝗿𝗼𝘂𝗻𝗱 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝘁𝗶𝗺𝗲 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗮𝗿𝗿𝗶𝘃𝗮𝗹 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗜𝗻𝗱𝗼-𝗘𝘂𝗿𝗼𝗽𝗲𝗮𝗻𝘀 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗯𝗲𝗰𝗼𝗺𝗲𝘀 𝗮𝗻 𝗶𝗻𝘁𝗿𝗶𝗻𝘀𝗶𝗰 𝗽𝗮𝗿𝘁 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗶𝗿 𝗰𝘂𝗹𝘁𝘂𝗿𝗲.

    https://www.brownpundits.com/2021/06/13/the-emergence-of-chariot-driven-warrior-aristocracy-of-the-bronze-age/

    𝗧𝗼𝗱𝗮𝘆, 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗜𝗻𝗱𝗶𝗰𝗶𝗻𝗲 𝗭𝗲𝗯𝘂 𝗮𝗱𝗺𝗶𝘅𝘁𝘂𝗿𝗲 𝗶𝗻 𝗳𝗼𝘂𝗻𝗱 𝗶𝗻 𝗻𝗮𝘁𝗶𝘃𝗲 𝗰𝗮𝘁𝘁𝗹𝗲 𝗳𝗿𝗼𝗺 𝗜𝗿𝗮𝗻 𝘁𝗼 𝗖𝗮𝘂𝗰𝗮𝘀𝘂𝘀 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗶𝗻𝘁𝗼 𝗔𝗿𝗮𝗯𝗶𝗮 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗮𝗰𝗿𝗼𝘀𝘀 𝗮𝗹𝗹 𝗼𝗳 𝗡𝗲𝗮𝗿 𝗘𝗮𝘀𝘁, 𝗶𝗻 𝗘𝗴𝘆𝗽𝘁 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗶𝗻 𝗦𝗼𝘂𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗿𝗻 𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗘𝗮𝘀𝘁𝗲𝗿𝗻 𝗘𝘂𝗿𝗼𝗽𝗲𝗮𝗻 𝗻𝗮𝘁𝗶𝘃𝗲 𝗰𝗮𝘁𝘁𝗹𝗲 𝗮𝘀 𝗜 𝗵𝗮𝘃𝗲 𝗱𝗶𝘀𝗰𝘂𝘀𝘀𝗲𝗱 𝗶𝗻 𝗺𝘆 𝗲𝗮𝗿𝗹𝗶𝗲𝗿 𝗽𝗼𝘀𝘁𝘀 (𝗵𝗲𝗿𝗲 & 𝗵𝗲𝗿𝗲). 𝗔𝗹𝗹 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝘀𝗲 𝗿𝗲𝗴𝗶𝗼𝗻𝘀 𝗮𝗹𝘀𝗼 𝗵𝗮𝘃𝗲 𝗽𝗼𝗽𝘂𝗹𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻𝘀 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗜𝗻𝗱𝗶𝗮𝗻 𝗯𝘂𝗳𝗳𝗮𝗹𝗼. 𝗧𝗵𝗲 𝗠𝗼𝘇𝘇𝗮𝗿𝗲𝗹𝗹𝗮 𝗰𝗵𝗲𝗲𝘀𝗲 𝗺𝗮𝗱𝗲 𝗯𝘆 𝗜𝘁𝗮𝗹𝗶𝗮𝗻𝘀 𝗶𝘀 𝗳𝗿𝗼𝗺 𝗺𝗶𝗹𝗸 𝗼𝗳 𝗻𝗮𝘁𝗶𝘃𝗲 𝗯𝘂𝗳𝗳𝗮𝗹𝗼𝗲𝘀 𝗱𝗲𝘀𝗰𝗲𝗻𝗱𝗲𝗱 𝗳𝗿𝗼𝗺 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝘀𝗲 𝗲𝗮𝗿𝗹𝘆 𝗯𝗼𝘃𝗶𝗱 𝗺𝗶𝗴𝗿𝗮𝗻𝘁𝘀. 𝗧𝗵𝗲 𝗹𝗮𝗿𝗴𝗲 𝘀𝗰𝗮𝗹𝗲 𝗶𝗻𝘁𝗿𝗼𝗱𝘂𝗰𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝘀𝗲 𝗱𝗼𝗺𝗲𝘀𝘁𝗶𝗰 𝗯𝗼𝘃𝗶𝗱𝘀 𝗶𝗻𝘁𝗼 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝘀𝗲 𝗿𝗲𝗴𝗶𝗼𝗻𝘀 𝘁𝗼𝗼𝗸 𝗽𝗹𝗮𝗰𝗲 𝗶𝗻 𝗮 𝗽𝗲𝗿𝗶𝗼𝗱 𝘀𝗹𝗶𝗴𝗵𝘁𝗹𝘆 𝗮𝗳𝘁𝗲𝗿 𝟰𝟬𝟬𝟬 𝘆𝗯𝗽, 𝗿𝗶𝗴𝗵𝘁 𝗮𝗿𝗼𝘂𝗻𝗱 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝘁𝗶𝗺𝗲 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗱𝗲𝗰𝗹𝗶𝗻𝗲 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗛𝗮𝗿𝗮𝗽𝗽𝗮𝗻 𝗰𝗶𝘃𝗶𝗹𝗶𝘇𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻.

    𝗪𝗲 𝗺𝗮𝘆 𝗼𝗯𝘀𝗲𝗿𝘃𝗲 𝘁𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝗰𝗮𝘁𝘁𝗹𝗲 𝗵𝗲𝗹𝗱 𝘀𝗽𝗲𝗰𝗶𝗮𝗹 𝗶𝗺𝗽𝗼𝗿𝘁𝗮𝗻𝗰𝗲 𝗳𝗼𝗿 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗜𝗻𝗱𝗼-𝗘𝘂𝗿𝗼𝗽𝗲𝗮𝗻 𝗽𝗲𝗼𝗽𝗹𝗲. 𝗜𝘁 𝗶𝘀 𝗾𝘂𝗶𝘁𝗲 𝗹𝗶𝗸𝗲𝗹𝘆 𝘁𝗵𝗮𝘁 𝗶𝗻 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗶𝗿 𝗺𝗶𝗴𝗿𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻𝘀, 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝘃𝗮𝗿𝗶𝗼𝘂𝘀 𝗜𝗘 𝗴𝗿𝗼𝘂𝗽𝘀 𝗺𝘂𝘀𝘁 𝗵𝗮𝘃𝗲 𝘁𝗮𝗸𝗲𝗻 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗶𝗿 𝗰𝗮𝘁𝘁𝗹𝗲 𝗮𝗹𝗼𝗻𝗴 𝘄𝗶𝘁𝗵 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗺 𝗮𝘀 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝘆 𝗺𝗼𝘃𝗲𝗱 𝗼𝘂𝘁 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝗶𝗿 𝗵𝗼𝗺𝗲𝗹𝗮𝗻𝗱 𝗶𝗻 𝘀𝗲𝗮𝗿𝗰𝗵 𝗼𝗳 𝗴𝗿𝗲𝗲𝗻𝗲𝗿 𝗽𝗮𝘀𝘁𝘂𝗿𝗲𝘀.

    ਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕਾਖਾਲਸਾਵਾਹਿਗੁਰੂਜੀਕੀਫਤਿਹ

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    𝗧𝗵𝗲 𝗹𝗮𝗿𝗴𝗲 𝘀𝗰𝗮𝗹𝗲 𝗶𝗻𝘁𝗿𝗼𝗱𝘂𝗰𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝘀𝗲 𝗱𝗼𝗺𝗲𝘀𝘁𝗶𝗰 𝗯𝗼𝘃𝗶𝗱𝘀 𝗶𝗻𝘁𝗼 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝘀𝗲 𝗿𝗲𝗴𝗶𝗼𝗻𝘀 𝘁𝗼𝗼𝗸 𝗽𝗹𝗮𝗰𝗲 𝗶𝗻 𝗮 𝗽𝗲𝗿𝗶𝗼𝗱 𝘀𝗹𝗶𝗴𝗵𝘁𝗹𝘆 𝗮𝗳𝘁𝗲𝗿 𝟰𝟬𝟬𝟬 𝘆𝗯𝗽, 𝗿𝗶𝗴𝗵𝘁 𝗮𝗿𝗼𝘂𝗻𝗱 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝘁𝗶𝗺𝗲 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗱𝗲𝗰𝗹𝗶𝗻𝗲 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗛𝗮𝗿𝗮𝗽𝗽𝗮𝗻 𝗰𝗶𝘃𝗶𝗹𝗶𝘇𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻.

    So about 500 years before Aryan invasions of subcontinent. Well Indus culture or Harappan civilization had trade contacts with the countries of fertile crescent. So no wonder if Zebus got by that way there, and later to Italy

    Both Nordicists and Hindutva nationalists are deluded and represent two opposite extremes. Former believe that Aryans were direct ancestors of Germanics, and latter believe that they were native sons of India. Well both theories are false, though Nordicists are probably more deluded. Aryans were mostly Iranic, or more accurately Scytho-Iranics of Turan. There are no people left who have the same genetic composition as Aryans of Central Asia had 3500 years ago. Most closely related populations nowadays are probably Pamiris, Russians, some inhabitants of Volga-Ural region, but Northern Indians, or inhabitants of Aryavarta have a substantial heritage from Aryans, from 30-40% of Punjabis and Kashmiris to 20-30% in the rest of Northern India, but Central Asian Aryans had also 10-20% of East Asian admixture, and they were quite fair, but fair hair and blue eyes are extremely recessive, so such characteristics are easily lost through mixing of couple generations.

    Anyway, Aryans as a race have ascended to a higher state of existence.

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @AltanBakshi

    https://www.heritagedaily.com/2020/04/arkaim/127669


    More than twenty other structures built according to similar patterns have been found in a larger area spanning from the southern Urals’ region to the north of Kazakhstan, forming the so-called “Land of Towns”.
     
    And yes, Harrappan Civilization were the trading partners of Sumerian / Acadian Mesopotamia, Elamites and BAMAC, this is a well known fact. Later on (during the Bronze Age collapse) the Middle Eastern / Anatolian derived Etruscans would bring their cattle to Italian peninsula.
    , @Rattus Norwegius
    @AltanBakshi


    Aryans were mostly Iranic, or more accurately Scytho-Iranics of Turan.
     
    The 'Aryans' who migrated to the Indian Subcontinent were not 'Iranic'. Instead both groups have a common predecessor.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  226. @Dmitry
    @Bashibuzuk

    I think it's more easy to explain. Of course, today Russians are a majority and titular (but only in name, without other privileges) nationality of the Russian Federation, among other nationalities that can be more or less successful than the majority nationality.

    Adding to the complicated relationship, is that imperialism in Russian context was so successful in terms of land extension, that it has resulted in federation which includes nationalities derived from non-European, nonslavic nationalities (that can seem difficult to assimilate without losing European identity), sharing the same land borders, without a sea that separated many other empires from their colonies (e.g. British Empire, Spanish Empire). This is the life of a federation, union, empire, etc.

    There are sweet and bitter fruits of imperialism. You conquer historically foreign lands (good news for the power of the elite), but you also become responsible for the different nationalities and sometimes their exotic, non-assimilable culture and religions, which still live on the land which you conquered from them (and this not always unambiguously good news for the ordinary people on both sides, and eventually results in you becoming married to those nationalities, and them to you).

    If a national self-determining Russia ceded from areas that has nonslavic nationalities, and tries to minimize the existence of nonslavic nationalities in the Russian areas, then the country should be more governable, European, and not slave to the considerations of federal appeasement.

    Nationalism is based on the concept of self-determination of the peoples, and in the Russian context the result is a national liberation for both the non-titular nationalities, and for the titular nationality, that had become bound together by historical imperialism. Self-determination of Russians, also implies the ability of the self-determination of nonrussians - national liberation is more like a negative liberation: the liberation you experience after "divorce" from a toxic relationship.

    The late stage of imperialism, results in the titular nationality, having no more privileges, than the non-titular nationality. And in this sense, all sides share the negative consequences of the bad marriage which was created by the imperialism of the elites of previous centuries.

    However, I doubt that (even in this unlikely nationalist scenario) the reality of national self-determination for and from Russians, would match the rosy expectations, as we see in Ukraine.

    Ukraine is 98%+ slavic populations, and needless to say something every child would predict - there was no utopia in Ukraine.

    Being a European self-determined country, is not an instant shortcut to e.g. Swedish, Swiss or Netherlands living standards, which were based on a centuries of good governance and hard work.

    Similarly, there are plenty of examples of multinational places (including with majority third world origin nationalities e.g. Singapore, Bermuda), which are great places to live - usually as a result of a historical European tradition like the English legal system, that was carried to them by imperialism.

    -

    AP's posting photos above about the Manul. Of course, this is not a native cat to any of Europe. It comes from Altai Republic, Kazakhstan, Iran and India. It enters the Russian Empire in the 18th century, at the same time as the oriental Altai people.

    This is two centuries after Tenochtitlan, entered the Spanish Empire, after the massacre of the Aztec aristocracy. (Ancestors of the Aztecs, possibly originating in oriental races that were assimilated centuries later in the Russian Empire).

    A difference is that the Spanish imperialism had a sea between it, and in Russia all land. But in the 21st century Spain has been reflooded with the peoples from its former colonies, as in Russia is flooded with e.g. Uzbeks and Armenians, after those nationalities became nominally (but not economically) independent.

    Replies: @AP, @Anatoly Karlin

    The obvious differences is that people from the former Spanish colonies are of partial Spanish descent and share the Spanish language and religion. Spain was the most successful of all colonial Empires in terms of spreading its culture without simply replacing the natives as the Brits did.

    • Replies: @Rattus Norwegius
    @AP

    British settler colonies was usually sparsely populated prior to British settlement. More densely populated colonies kept mostly indigenous paradigms. The Spanish and Portuguese was generally much more successful at spreading their culture, language, religion and genes in densely populated regions.

    Replies: @AP

    , @Dmitry
    @AP

    Sure, the Latin American nationalities, have been intermarried with Spanish settlers.

    But of Latin American immigrants in Spain today (that have "flooded" Spain, if that is not viewed as a negative way to phrase it) -it looks like the level of Indigenous American peoples' ancestry would be high.

    Mass immigration from Latin America to Spain, is not mainly a return of unmixed ethnically and culturally Spanish people.

    Rather, it is economic immigration (like any of the 21st century mass immigrations) of people whose ancestors had been partly culturally assimilated by the Spanish Empire.

    So in parks Madrid today, you see people playing Mesoamerican ballgames. There is something that seems like a "revenge of Tenochtitlan", in the way of historical irony that is common with the "reverse colonialism" to the capital cities of other empires, such as British, French and Russian empires.

    -

    There is also a layer of immigration which probably has majority ratio of Spanish blood, i.e. - bourgeois immigration to Spain from its former colonies.

    When Peruvian bourgeois writers like Vargas-Llosas immigrate to Madrid, probably it can not be seen as "revenge of the Incas". ​ And his wife (also immigrant to Madrid) is Philipino, but of Spanish ancestry, as is still common among that country's elites.

    So in repatriation of the imperial elites. Imperialism has resulted in Peruvian and Philipino bourgeoisie, despite being on other sides of a Pacific Ocean for multiple centuries, looking like the same Spanish natives.
    https://static3.abc.es/media/estilo/2016/02/03/hola-revis--620x420.jpg

    Replies: @Dmitry, @AP

  227. Bashibuzuk says:
    @Mr. Hack
    @Bashibuzuk

    If these distinctions really are not that important, then what is it about them that is so revealing to you? Is there really some sort of coalition among Russians into Ugro-Finnic groupings vs more Slavic ones, as you seem to suggest?

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    It reveals that Russian ethnos was not really good at suppressing and assimilating local minor ethnic identities. Russians as a people were never interested in that. As I wrote a couple of times that part of my family were villagers from the Penza region. The village (a typical poor hinterland Great Russian village in the Tsarist Russia days) was in the part of Penza oblast’ were Slavic (that is ethnic Russian) villages are interspersed between Tatar and Mordvinian ones. It was in Muscovy times the marches protected by defensive notches against the frequent Tatar raids and 600 years later each ethnic group there was still aware of its ancestry.

    That has always been the typical Russian attitude: I basically don’t care who you are, what you worship or how you organize your life as long as you don’t interfere with my life and don’t get on my nerves. This attitude is a world away from the typical normative, standardizing, unifying and suppressing nation-building European attitude.

    • Replies: @Yellowface Anon
    @Bashibuzuk

    Contrast this with the acculturation-ist attitude of China. Study the Classics and go to the Exam; marry local women and have kids (in much earlier periods where whole swarths of Yue land was assimilated). Either way you're Chinese.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  228. Bashibuzuk says:
    @AltanBakshi
    But maybe I was too quick to condemn Bashi's historical narrative. Such narrative can be utilised/weaponised and used for Russia's gain. Bashi, yes you are correct, Russians are PoC, who were exploited and enslaved by the white people through centuries. How Merkel condescendingly dares to demand something from the Russia, when her ancestors killed 25 million Russians in the Russian Holocaust, also known by the name of Second World War, and for generations kept Russians like cattle in inhuman conditions of serfdom. Reparations now! Russian Lives Matter# SlavNotSlave#

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @Coconuts

    Slavs are directly descended from the Corded Ware folks. Corded Ware folks lived in all o Northern Central Europe up to today’s Netherlands.

    Basically, one could build a narrative of eternal struggle of the Corded Ware descended people against the unrelenting aggression by the Western European Bell Beaker derived ethnic groups. Then one makes the Tollensee battle into the foundation of a Corded Ware derived identity et voilà!

    https://www.military-history.org/news/new-discoveries-throw-fresh-light-on-bronze-age-battle.htm

    Не забудем, не простим Толенскую битву!

    Western Europeans, give us back our half of Europe up to Netherlands and go back to Spain where your Mediterranean swarthy ancestors swarmed from. Or pay reparations for our Nakba and thousands years old Apartheid…

    😉

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Bashibuzuk

    It's really none of my business, but I suspect that you might be having some kind of "inter-familial" strife that you're dealing with. When you try to figure out why Junior is behaving oddly, you probably pinpoint the malady to some sort of receding Bell Beaker gene that is unexpectedly flaring up. It couldn't possibly be due to your own pure Corded Ware input to Junior's genetic make-up. Although slightly murky, don't most researchers consider Celtic DNA to be closely related to Corded Ware?


    Не забудем, не простим Толенскую битву!
     
    I share your interest in ancient peoples and genetics, but isn't this taking things a little bit too far? :-)

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Bashibuzuk

  229. Bashibuzuk says:
    @AltanBakshi
    @Jatt Aryaa


    𝗧𝗵𝗲 𝗹𝗮𝗿𝗴𝗲 𝘀𝗰𝗮𝗹𝗲 𝗶𝗻𝘁𝗿𝗼𝗱𝘂𝗰𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝘀𝗲 𝗱𝗼𝗺𝗲𝘀𝘁𝗶𝗰 𝗯𝗼𝘃𝗶𝗱𝘀 𝗶𝗻𝘁𝗼 𝘁𝗵𝗲𝘀𝗲 𝗿𝗲𝗴𝗶𝗼𝗻𝘀 𝘁𝗼𝗼𝗸 𝗽𝗹𝗮𝗰𝗲 𝗶𝗻 𝗮 𝗽𝗲𝗿𝗶𝗼𝗱 𝘀𝗹𝗶𝗴𝗵𝘁𝗹𝘆 𝗮𝗳𝘁𝗲𝗿 𝟰𝟬𝟬𝟬 𝘆𝗯𝗽, 𝗿𝗶𝗴𝗵𝘁 𝗮𝗿𝗼𝘂𝗻𝗱 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝘁𝗶𝗺𝗲 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗱𝗲𝗰𝗹𝗶𝗻𝗲 𝗼𝗳 𝘁𝗵𝗲 𝗛𝗮𝗿𝗮𝗽𝗽𝗮𝗻 𝗰𝗶𝘃𝗶𝗹𝗶𝘇𝗮𝘁𝗶𝗼𝗻.
     
    So about 500 years before Aryan invasions of subcontinent. Well Indus culture or Harappan civilization had trade contacts with the countries of fertile crescent. So no wonder if Zebus got by that way there, and later to Italy

    Both Nordicists and Hindutva nationalists are deluded and represent two opposite extremes. Former believe that Aryans were direct ancestors of Germanics, and latter believe that they were native sons of India. Well both theories are false, though Nordicists are probably more deluded. Aryans were mostly Iranic, or more accurately Scytho-Iranics of Turan. There are no people left who have the same genetic composition as Aryans of Central Asia had 3500 years ago. Most closely related populations nowadays are probably Pamiris, Russians, some inhabitants of Volga-Ural region, but Northern Indians, or inhabitants of Aryavarta have a substantial heritage from Aryans, from 30-40% of Punjabis and Kashmiris to 20-30% in the rest of Northern India, but Central Asian Aryans had also 10-20% of East Asian admixture, and they were quite fair, but fair hair and blue eyes are extremely recessive, so such characteristics are easily lost through mixing of couple generations.

    Anyway, Aryans as a race have ascended to a higher state of existence.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @Rattus Norwegius

    https://www.heritagedaily.com/2020/04/arkaim/127669

    More than twenty other structures built according to similar patterns have been found in a larger area spanning from the southern Urals’ region to the north of Kazakhstan, forming the so-called “Land of Towns”.

    And yes, Harrappan Civilization were the trading partners of Sumerian / Acadian Mesopotamia, Elamites and BAMAC, this is a well known fact. Later on (during the Bronze Age collapse) the Middle Eastern / Anatolian derived Etruscans would bring their cattle to Italian peninsula.

    • Agree: AltanBakshi
  230. @AltanBakshi
    But maybe I was too quick to condemn Bashi's historical narrative. Such narrative can be utilised/weaponised and used for Russia's gain. Bashi, yes you are correct, Russians are PoC, who were exploited and enslaved by the white people through centuries. How Merkel condescendingly dares to demand something from the Russia, when her ancestors killed 25 million Russians in the Russian Holocaust, also known by the name of Second World War, and for generations kept Russians like cattle in inhuman conditions of serfdom. Reparations now! Russian Lives Matter# SlavNotSlave#

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @Coconuts

    How Merkel condescendingly dares to demand something from the Russia, when her ancestors killed 25 million Russians in the Russian Holocaust…

    Well, she is a woman:

    ‘Standing up for the sisterhood against systemic misogyny and patriarchal subjugation. Interest in borders and patrilinear descent is rape culture’.

    These are the kind of subsequent moves someone invested in intersectionality is likely to make. Also, any reaction to these claims is just a manifestation of male privilege preserving epistemic pushback.

    These are a couple of reasons not to spread this kind of ideology.

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @Coconuts

    Bell Beaker Culture was the canonical rape culture with 90% of conquered males exterminated and all women kept for the Bell Beaker overlords. That's how the Central European populations kept their phenotype after the Bell Beaker conquest: through the Corded Ware mothers. Same thing probably explains the prevalence of Indo-European languages.

    The Bell Beaker is the typical "White male rapist ", while the Slavs are POC and "dindu nufin".

  231. @AltanBakshi
    @Yellowface Anon

    You got it wrong. The Great Qing was quite an aggreasive in it's sinification of minorities of Sichuan, Yunnan and Guangxi, unlike the Ming with it's Tusi system, who let the Southern and South Western tribal leaders to rule and keep their native laws as long as they continue paying of tribute to the emperor. Mongols and Tibetans were an exception to the rule in the great Qing, Mongols because they were the junior partners of Manchus in ruling of China, and Tibetans, because the emperor was a Dharmic universal ruler, or Chakravartin and therefore protector and patron of the Buddhist faith. There were many wars in which Manchus wisely forced imperial institutions upon tribal wildlings, like all Miao wars or Jinchuan campaigns. Also little before Xinhai revolution, Manchu ambans started to micromanage more and more local affairs in Tibet and Mongolia.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon

    I thought my comment wasn’t published! That was indeed the case, and these smaller tribes were ignored even in ROC times (remember what I said 5 Races under One Union?)

    What went wrong for China is the same as Russia (under the Soviets as in now) – trying to do homogenous ethnic nationalism over the remains of a multicultural empire. It was simply substituting the identity of (late) Osman Sultan with the majorities’ national identity.

    [MORE]

    To build French nationalism Occitan identity had to be rolled over. German and Italian unification dealt the final blow to countless local “dialects” first leveled by the selection of a unified language. If you count local language and cultural identity as possible nationalism, ethnical nationalism has always been a dream since there isn’t a coherent ethnos within a “nation”. You can make a Rothbardian case of secession down to the commune and hamlet.

    This is why replacing the Westphalian nation-state with collections of smaller units under a cultural sphere (or the other way around – putting a nominal authority above all), will be better for civilizations. I don’t mean the EU model!

    (This is a historical analysis, not political statement. I DO NOT advocate separatism or overturning CCP’s authority)

  232. @Bashibuzuk
    @Mr. Hack

    It reveals that Russian ethnos was not really good at suppressing and assimilating local minor ethnic identities. Russians as a people were never interested in that. As I wrote a couple of times that part of my family were villagers from the Penza region. The village (a typical poor hinterland Great Russian village in the Tsarist Russia days) was in the part of Penza oblast' were Slavic (that is ethnic Russian) villages are interspersed between Tatar and Mordvinian ones. It was in Muscovy times the marches protected by defensive notches against the frequent Tatar raids and 600 years later each ethnic group there was still aware of its ancestry.

    That has always been the typical Russian attitude: I basically don't care who you are, what you worship or how you organize your life as long as you don't interfere with my life and don't get on my nerves. This attitude is a world away from the typical normative, standardizing, unifying and suppressing nation-building European attitude.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon

    Contrast this with the acculturation-ist attitude of China. Study the Classics and go to the Exam; marry local women and have kids (in much earlier periods where whole swarths of Yue land was assimilated). Either way you’re Chinese.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @Yellowface Anon

    Yes the Western European, Russian and Chinese approaches have always been different. And the mentalities that explain these approaches have been and still are different. I think that if Christianisation wouldn't have occurred and if Islamization would have been avoided (two "big ifs" making this alternative time-line improbable), then the Slavs would probably ended up with something similar to Hinduism with Nordic characteristics.

    As I like to sometimes (half-jockingly) mention: Rus + Hindu = Bhai, Bhai because Hind = Wend, so perhaps RusFed would be an Eurasian-wide Wendustan in that time-line with a Svetovid dominated pantheon of 200 million "divine" entities down to the local forest "Leshyi" spirit and the local river "Russalka" spirit. But alas, the Abrahamic people and Western European people are quite convincing, while Slavs are probably easier to acculturate and assimilate than their Hindu counterparts.

  233. @AP
    @Bashibuzuk

    You need to get one of these:

    https://i.redd.it/5apnumfndit01.jpg

    https://static.boredpanda.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/pallas-cat-manul-10__880.jpg

    They are from Russia and Central Asia.

    People have bred domestic cats with Bengal cats and Servals to produce domesticated hybrids. Some Russian needs to start a breeding program to produce hybrids with these guys. For the glory of Russia. This would be much better use of money, and much cheaper than a huge yacht.

    The wrong people have money in Russia.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @Blinky Bill

    • LOL: AP
  234. Bashibuzuk says:
    @Yellowface Anon
    @Bashibuzuk

    Contrast this with the acculturation-ist attitude of China. Study the Classics and go to the Exam; marry local women and have kids (in much earlier periods where whole swarths of Yue land was assimilated). Either way you're Chinese.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    Yes the Western European, Russian and Chinese approaches have always been different. And the mentalities that explain these approaches have been and still are different. I think that if Christianisation wouldn’t have occurred and if Islamization would have been avoided (two “big ifs” making this alternative time-line improbable), then the Slavs would probably ended up with something similar to Hinduism with Nordic characteristics.

    As I like to sometimes (half-jockingly) mention: Rus + Hindu = Bhai, Bhai because Hind = Wend, so perhaps RusFed would be an Eurasian-wide Wendustan in that time-line with a Svetovid dominated pantheon of 200 million “divine” entities down to the local forest “Leshyi” spirit and the local river “Russalka” spirit. But alas, the Abrahamic people and Western European people are quite convincing, while Slavs are probably easier to acculturate and assimilate than their Hindu counterparts.

  235. Bashibuzuk says:
    @Coconuts
    @AltanBakshi


    How Merkel condescendingly dares to demand something from the Russia, when her ancestors killed 25 million Russians in the Russian Holocaust...
     
    Well, she is a woman:

    'Standing up for the sisterhood against systemic misogyny and patriarchal subjugation. Interest in borders and patrilinear descent is rape culture'.
    '
    These are the kind of subsequent moves someone invested in intersectionality is likely to make. Also, any reaction to these claims is just a manifestation of male privilege preserving epistemic pushback.

    These are a couple of reasons not to spread this kind of ideology.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    Bell Beaker Culture was the canonical rape culture with 90% of conquered males exterminated and all women kept for the Bell Beaker overlords. That’s how the Central European populations kept their phenotype after the Bell Beaker conquest: through the Corded Ware mothers. Same thing probably explains the prevalence of Indo-European languages.

    The Bell Beaker is the typical “White male rapist “, while the Slavs are POC and “dindu nufin”.

  236. Let me put what I’ve said in a “socialist” perspective: Mao should have remembered his 1920 piece on the Hunan Republic and referred to the Soviet system. It should have been a Chinese People’s Union, with at least a Han Federal Socialist Republic, Inner Mongolian Socialist Republic, Tibet SR, Uyghur SR and Zhuang SR. Each republic gets a local communist party, Soviet style.

    [MORE]

    8964 would have been much more dangerous, so my NatSec-conforming post fails.

  237. @Bashibuzuk
    @Mr. Hack


    “мы имеем то, что имеем.”
     
    This is true, but one has to be careful about definitions, first one should define what exactly would be a state that would qualify as a "Russian National State" and then one should see if this definition is applicable to the RusFed. And of course, to define any National State we first must define what is its "titular nation: and how it is different from other nations and peoples.

    I have already mentioned once that in my opinion, Russia ethnos, formed mainly by the North-Eastern Slavic tribes (Slovene, Krivichi etc.) and the Finno-Ugric tribes (Muroma, Messhera, Chud' etc.) under the leadership of the Vladimir-Suzdal branch of the Rurikid Rus princes, did not evolve to complete its nation-building before the Bolshevik takeover. Various historical causes prevented from the arising of a clear national identity among the large Russian masses during the reign of the Romanov dynasty. Russian nationalist movement was rather limited in the Empire days.

    After the Bolshevik takeover, completing this nation-building become impossible, because a Soviet identity was imposed from the top. This nation-building should be completed today, with Russians finally becoming the masters in their own land, where they form more than 80% percent of the population. But it is the opposite that is happening right in front of our eyes, we witness a demographic and spiritual weakening of the Russian ethnos. A weakening that might well lead to a collapse of Russian ethnos in the next 2-3 generations.

    Therefore, unfortunately the nation-building of Russians is far from being a done deal and is perhaps something that might never be completed. And given that there cannot be a Russian Nation State in the absence of a Russian nation, we have to logically conclude that the current iteration of Statehood in the ancestral Russian lands is not Russia, but is something entirely different.

    That is why I (and some other Russian nationalists) prefer naming it RusFed (or even more sarcastically in Russian; Ресурсная Федерация - РесФед). Interestingly enough in official RusFedian lingo, the citizens of RidFed are not Russians, but some undefined Rossiyane, who can be of any ethnic origin whatsoever. This confirms that RusFed is not Russia.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon, @Yellowface Anon, @Mr. Hack, @Dmitry, @Mr. Hack

    I have already mentioned once that in my opinion, Russia ethnos, formed mainly by the North-Eastern Slavic tribes (Slovene, Krivichi etc.) and the Finno-Ugric tribes (Muroma, Messhera, Chud’ etc.) under the leadership of the Vladimir-Suzdal branch of the Rurikid Rus princes,

    Any idea of the proportionate mixture of these two seemingly different ethnic tribes that added their DNA to the development of the Russian ethnos? I suspect that it wasn’t until the displaced Rurikid princes and their retinues ventured from the south in search of new patrimonies in the north that the Slavic element began to math the Finno-Ugric masses in the north.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @Mr. Hack

    Both Slavs and Finno-Ugric populations in modern day RusFed territory are mostly Corded Ware derived. The linguistic split was due to the influence of Unetice Culture on proto-Balto-Slavs and of Seima-Turbino and Akozino-Malar (Akozino-Ananiyno in Russian) on the Finno-Ugric populations.

    People tend to forget that ancient Rus proto-State started around Novgorod and Old Ladoga at least a hundred years before it moved to Kiev. And Novgorod stayed an important center of Rus identity until Muscovy broke its neck and destroyed its republican system (which was the archaic Slav system BTW).

    Finno-Ugric and Slavic tribes cohabitation in Novgorod lands goes back to at least around the early 7th century CE, while the proto-Corded Ware Y haplogroup R1a populations are dated to some 15 000 years ago in Karelia. We are native in this land from the Elbe to the Xinjiang. We have always lived side by side with those whom we have come today to identifying as Finno-Ugric or Turkic populations. Genetically speaking, most of them are our distant cousins remove by perhaps less than a hundred generations.

    That is why the narrow-minded view held by some Svidomites of Moskaly/Katsapy as being "Ugric " mongrels or by some Russian Supremacists of Khokhly being "Turkic " mongrels is completely misleading. Genetically speaking all these populations are very close. And they are also culturally compatible. That is if we adopt the attitude we had for thousands of years: live and let live. Collaborate when needed, fight when it cannot be avoided. Then work together again...

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

  238. Bashibuzuk says:
    @Mr. Hack
    @Bashibuzuk


    I have already mentioned once that in my opinion, Russia ethnos, formed mainly by the North-Eastern Slavic tribes (Slovene, Krivichi etc.) and the Finno-Ugric tribes (Muroma, Messhera, Chud’ etc.) under the leadership of the Vladimir-Suzdal branch of the Rurikid Rus princes,
     
    Any idea of the proportionate mixture of these two seemingly different ethnic tribes that added their DNA to the development of the Russian ethnos? I suspect that it wasn't until the displaced Rurikid princes and their retinues ventured from the south in search of new patrimonies in the north that the Slavic element began to math the Finno-Ugric masses in the north.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    Both Slavs and Finno-Ugric populations in modern day RusFed territory are mostly Corded Ware derived. The linguistic split was due to the influence of Unetice Culture on proto-Balto-Slavs and of Seima-Turbino and Akozino-Malar (Akozino-Ananiyno in Russian) on the Finno-Ugric populations.

    People tend to forget that ancient Rus proto-State started around Novgorod and Old Ladoga at least a hundred years before it moved to Kiev. And Novgorod stayed an important center of Rus identity until Muscovy broke its neck and destroyed its republican system (which was the archaic Slav system BTW).

    Finno-Ugric and Slavic tribes cohabitation in Novgorod lands goes back to at least around the early 7th century CE, while the proto-Corded Ware Y haplogroup R1a populations are dated to some 15 000 years ago in Karelia. We are native in this land from the Elbe to the Xinjiang. We have always lived side by side with those whom we have come today to identifying as Finno-Ugric or Turkic populations. Genetically speaking, most of them are our distant cousins remove by perhaps less than a hundred generations.

    That is why the narrow-minded view held by some Svidomites of Moskaly/Katsapy as being “Ugric ” mongrels or by some Russian Supremacists of Khokhly being “Turkic ” mongrels is completely misleading. Genetically speaking all these populations are very close. And they are also culturally compatible. That is if we adopt the attitude we had for thousands of years: live and let live. Collaborate when needed, fight when it cannot be avoided. Then work together again…

    • Agree: AltanBakshi
    • Thanks: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @Bashibuzuk

    Do you know about Haplogroup N?
    It's shared by 60% of Finns/Estonians and about 10% of Hans/Koreans/Mongols

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liao_civilization#People
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_N-M231#Ancient_peoples

    The founders of Sui-Tang dynasties, of mixed Han-Xianbei ancestry, were Haplo N

    https://i.imgur.com/RK58DYql.png

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  239. @Yellowface Anon
    @Bashibuzuk

    If you want an ethno-state, grant minority-majority regions much greater levels of autonomy. Like what the Qing Dynasty or the Ottomans once did.

    I'm not talking about Russia's southern neighbor, BTW. That'll be crypto-separatist.

    Tho modern nationalism isn't compatible to the traditional Chinese concept of all-under-heaven. Rather than ethno-states in the European sense, there was a large civilizational sphere, usually with a central imperial authority, then some more peripheral kingdoms adopting Chinese civilization wholesale and states further field for trade/tribute. India was similar, but much more decentralized and multipolar. It was still the case in the Qing Dynasty when the ruling elite was foreign but nativized.

    Then the Revolution imposed crude modernism and the principle of Five Races Under One Union (五族共和) which was Sun Yat-sen's attempt to coalesce the 5 races (Han predominance + Hui, Mongol, Manchu, Tibetan) into one nation ideologically. The CCP kept with the program but added its own Soviet mentality of occasional neutral negligence and occasional compulsive assimilation. That was the wrong road - you could either be Chinese and be incorporated into the imperial state; adopt Chinese culture and social institutions wholesale while keeping your own language; or accept suzerainty and retain the native ruling class and culture (this was how Great Qing dealt with non-Han).

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Anatoly Karlin

    Eliminating sovok federalism (de facto) has been one of the defining goals of Russian nationalism for decades. There have finally been major successes in that respect in the past few years, with Russians (and Bashkirs) in Tatarstan no longer being obligated to learn Russian. Promoting regional autonomies is a traditional foreign agenda that has always had the breakup of Russia as its ultimate goal.

    Yet again, it is unsurprising that Bashibuzuk “thanks” this comment.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Imperialism is so 19th century. Archaeofuturism is the way forward! Back to the clans, tribes, lineages, spiritual brotherhoods. Those who do not understand this trend are backward.

    Around 80% of genetic lineages will probably not make it through this hundred years. It's already a major bottleneck in most developed countries, it'll spread accross the globe in the next decades. People will need not geopolitics, but their kin and kind.

    Those without their clan and their tribe are already dead men/women walking. Hope you won't be one of these. It would be a shame to lose your genetic lineage, you should get sequenced and put your genomic data in some public database. My offspring might need some of those high IQ alleles of yours to genetically optimize their cognitive processes.

    🙂

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    , @Yellowface Anon
    @Anatoly Karlin

    What are you implying about my ideology? I have never liked those "HK Independence" or "Free HK" types.

  240. @Mr. Hack
    @Bashibuzuk

    Aren't the people mostly at the top levers of government Russians though? So in fact we have a majority of Russians voting mostly for politicians of Russian ethnos, all situated within "their own land". Again perfection is hard to find and “мы имеем то, что имеем.”

    BTW, your second paragraph is a gem of conciseness and I couldn't agree with you any more. What you're in effect saying is that the Russian nationality never really had the opportunity to evolve to completion because the vagaries of imperialism, whether in the Empire period or in the Soviet one, stood in the way of normal nation/state evolution. Similarly Ukraine, never really had the opportunity to evolve fully into a normal nation/state too, due to the same forces of imperialism. Both Russia and Ukraine are chugging along well into the 21st century as incomplete nation states. Then there's the ever present pressure of globalism that is working towards arresting the development of all forms of nation/state development. Not really a whole lot to remedy this situation that will need more than vyshivankas and balalaikas to turn things around. Nationalism doesn't always sell well when one needs to put food on the kitchen table.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Anatoly Karlin

    That is correct. Ethnic Russians are about 65% even of the “economic elites” (billionaires) and probably something like 85%-90% of the political ones. Yet another Bashibuzuk fantasy.

    • Thanks: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Anatoly Karlin

    I guess Bashibuzuk won't be happy untill 100% of Russia's citizenry becomes homogenized into the new Russian clan man? On the other hand he states:


    That is why the narrow-minded view held by some Svidomites of Moskaly/Katsapy as being “Ugric ” mongrels or by some Russian Supremacists of Khokhly being “Turkic ” mongrels is completely misleading. Genetically speaking all these populations are very close. And they are also culturally compatible. That is if we adopt the attitude we had for thousands of years: live and let live. Collaborate when needed, fight when it cannot be avoided. Then work together again…
     
    that indicates that other non-Russian ethnicities can live in harmony with the Russian ethnos. This would mean that the 100% homogenization process I allude to above is not necessary for a "real" Russia to exist, and what appears to already be in place. He's an incredibly intelligent guy, whose comments I love to read and contemplate, but he does seem a little contradictory here?

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  241. Bashibuzuk says:
    @Anatoly Karlin
    @Yellowface Anon

    Eliminating sovok federalism (de facto) has been one of the defining goals of Russian nationalism for decades. There have finally been major successes in that respect in the past few years, with Russians (and Bashkirs) in Tatarstan no longer being obligated to learn Russian. Promoting regional autonomies is a traditional foreign agenda that has always had the breakup of Russia as its ultimate goal.

    Yet again, it is unsurprising that Bashibuzuk "thanks" this comment.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @Yellowface Anon

    Imperialism is so 19th century. Archaeofuturism is the way forward! Back to the clans, tribes, lineages, spiritual brotherhoods. Those who do not understand this trend are backward.

    Around 80% of genetic lineages will probably not make it through this hundred years. It’s already a major bottleneck in most developed countries, it’ll spread accross the globe in the next decades. People will need not geopolitics, but their kin and kind.

    Those without their clan and their tribe are already dead men/women walking. Hope you won’t be one of these. It would be a shame to lose your genetic lineage, you should get sequenced and put your genomic data in some public database. My offspring might need some of those high IQ alleles of yours to genetically optimize their cognitive processes.

    🙂

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Bashibuzuk

    There's politically nothing as perennial as Imperialism, but your Archeo-Futurism is nothing else than a dream.

  242. @Thorfinnsson
    @Ron Unz



    I think most standard history books usually discuss the internal conflicts within the Japanese military and political leadership between those who wanted to strike north against the Soviets and those who wanted to strike south against the Western powers. From what I recall, a top priority of Soviet agents in both Japan and America was to help redirect the Japanese southward, and they succeeded. McMeekin’s book discusses this in considerable detail.

    So although the term “Kantokuen” is quite uncommon, the idea is widely known. I’d certainly read about it dozens of times over the years, while until you mentioned the Japanese name for the possible operation I don’t think I’d ever seen it. Meanwhile, the notion of an early 1940 Allied attack on the Soviets was been almost totally removed from all Anglophone historiography for two or three generations, an entirely different situation.
     
    I haven't yet read McMeekin's book, though I intend to after completing the book I'm currently reading. There was indeed an internal conflict within Japanese leadership, and the Strike South faction won out for a variety of reasons. These included the army being bogged down in China, the decisive Soviet victory at Khalkin Gol, the greater availability of needed raw materials (especially oil and rubber) in the "Southern Resource Area", and rapidly deteriorating relations with Britain and the United States in the aftermath of the occupation of French Indochina.

    I'm not sure to what extent Soviet agents played a role in this, but Western and especially US diplomacy was certainly critical. A watershed moment was when Dean Acheson exceeded the President's asset freeze orders to embargo all oil exports to Japan.

    Operation Barbarossa upended this balance by creating a new opportunity for Japan to strike north, which the army was very much in favor of. The failure of the Germans to achieve a strategic decision in Russia during the summer (or at all) ultimately caused the new plan to be shelved. This is comparable to Operation Pike in that the rapid German success in the west caused that plan to be shelved.


    Stylistically, perhaps. On the other hand, his work was absolutely revolutionary and seminal, and it completely overturned the established narrative of World War II, while McMeekin’s exhaustive archival research has now confirmed that Suvorov was essentially correct. Meanwhile, Suvorov’s books sold many millions of copies, and established him as probably the world’s best-selling military historian.

    I think both your characterization and my own are correct, but I suspect that mine has greater long-term significance.
     
    The problems with Suvorov's work have been well explored in these comment sections many time, so I won't belabor the point, but the basic issue is that he inappropriately ties procurement decisions to strategic intent. The same logic could be used to claim that Germany was not pursuing an aggressive foreign policy in the runup to the war because its armored formations were small and mostly equipped with inferior tanks.

    Suvorov was indeed very popular, which is not indicative of quality. He filled a popular hunger for anti-Soviet and also revisionist WW2 literature against the stale narrative. The most successful American WW2 historian in my lifetime is probably the late Stephen Ambrose, whose books were terrible and also guilty of plagiarism.

    Suvorov's thesis may have been new to Anglophones, but the thesis was not new. The same debate took place in West Germany in the 1950s, and the theory was originally advanced by German leadership during the war after encountering unexpectedly massive Soviet resistance and military power. German Eastern Front veterans commonly espoused the idea after the war.

    To close this, you still haven't definitively stated what exactly you think is so embarrassing about Operation Pike so as to motivate a coverup.

    Replies: @Thorfinnsson, @utu, @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms, @Ron Unz

    Strike South faction won out for a variety of reasons

    Japan declined to join Barbarossa b/c they
    1. Were taught a lesson at Nomonhan
    2. Felt betrayed by not being notified in advance of Barbarossa (also they grew highly suspicious after the Hess Incident)
    3. Were focused on cutting off supplies to Chiang in the China War and securing materiel for themselves

    Also— Hitler specifically did not inform Japan b/c he
    1. Thought the campaign would be finished in weeks
    2. Wanted Japan to tie up US/UK in the Pacific

    but Western and especially US diplomacy was certainly critical. A watershed moment was when Dean Acheson exceeded the President’s asset freeze orders to embargo all oil exports to Japan.

    Japan was only able to make war in China on the part of US materiel.

    Maxwell S. Stewart, a former Foreign Policy Association research staff and economist who charged that America’s Neutrality Act and its “neutrality policy” was a massive farce which only benefited Japan and that Japan did not have the capability nor could ever have invaded China without the massive amount of raw material America exported to Japan.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Sino-Japanese_War#Foreign_aid_and_support_to_China

    I’m not sure to what extent Soviet agents played a role in this

    Considerable. Both KMT and CCP were originally groomed by Soviets. I’ve commented here on Chiang playing off Japan and Soviets

    But during his Northern Expedition to unify China from the Warlords, Chiang would be backed by Soviet Russia. The Pan-Asianists considered this to be a direct betrayal.

    https://www.unz.com/isteve/the-black-muslim-capitol-cop-killer/#comment-4572114

    Soviets may also have had considerable role in Xi’an Incident, which led to KMT-CCP United Front.

    Chiang Kai-shek’s “secret deal” at Xian and the start of the Sino-Japanese War
    https://www.nature.com/articles/palcomms20143

  243. @Dmitry
    @Bashibuzuk

    I think it's more easy to explain. Of course, today Russians are a majority and titular (but only in name, without other privileges) nationality of the Russian Federation, among other nationalities that can be more or less successful than the majority nationality.

    Adding to the complicated relationship, is that imperialism in Russian context was so successful in terms of land extension, that it has resulted in federation which includes nationalities derived from non-European, nonslavic nationalities (that can seem difficult to assimilate without losing European identity), sharing the same land borders, without a sea that separated many other empires from their colonies (e.g. British Empire, Spanish Empire). This is the life of a federation, union, empire, etc.

    There are sweet and bitter fruits of imperialism. You conquer historically foreign lands (good news for the power of the elite), but you also become responsible for the different nationalities and sometimes their exotic, non-assimilable culture and religions, which still live on the land which you conquered from them (and this not always unambiguously good news for the ordinary people on both sides, and eventually results in you becoming married to those nationalities, and them to you).

    If a national self-determining Russia ceded from areas that has nonslavic nationalities, and tries to minimize the existence of nonslavic nationalities in the Russian areas, then the country should be more governable, European, and not slave to the considerations of federal appeasement.

    Nationalism is based on the concept of self-determination of the peoples, and in the Russian context the result is a national liberation for both the non-titular nationalities, and for the titular nationality, that had become bound together by historical imperialism. Self-determination of Russians, also implies the ability of the self-determination of nonrussians - national liberation is more like a negative liberation: the liberation you experience after "divorce" from a toxic relationship.

    The late stage of imperialism, results in the titular nationality, having no more privileges, than the non-titular nationality. And in this sense, all sides share the negative consequences of the bad marriage which was created by the imperialism of the elites of previous centuries.

    However, I doubt that (even in this unlikely nationalist scenario) the reality of national self-determination for and from Russians, would match the rosy expectations, as we see in Ukraine.

    Ukraine is 98%+ slavic populations, and needless to say something every child would predict - there was no utopia in Ukraine.

    Being a European self-determined country, is not an instant shortcut to e.g. Swedish, Swiss or Netherlands living standards, which were based on a centuries of good governance and hard work.

    Similarly, there are plenty of examples of multinational places (including with majority third world origin nationalities e.g. Singapore, Bermuda), which are great places to live - usually as a result of a historical European tradition like the English legal system, that was carried to them by imperialism.

    -

    AP's posting photos above about the Manul. Of course, this is not a native cat to any of Europe. It comes from Altai Republic, Kazakhstan, Iran and India. It enters the Russian Empire in the 18th century, at the same time as the oriental Altai people.

    This is two centuries after Tenochtitlan, entered the Spanish Empire, after the massacre of the Aztec aristocracy. (Ancestors of the Aztecs, possibly originating in oriental races that were assimilated centuries later in the Russian Empire).

    A difference is that the Spanish imperialism had a sea between it, and in Russia all land. But in the 21st century Spain has been reflooded with the peoples from its former colonies, as in Russia is flooded with e.g. Uzbeks and Armenians, after those nationalities became nominally (but not economically) independent.

    Replies: @AP, @Anatoly Karlin

    … then the country should be more governable, European, and not slave to the considerations of federal appeasement.

    The only regions posing a governance problem are DICh – tribal confederations that were only incorporated into Russia in mid-19C (so an extreme case and one where some arguments could be made for ditching them).

    … which were based on a centuries of good governance and hard work.

    So far as today is concerned, based on half a century of capitalism. Czechia was as rich as Austria in the 1930s.

    • Agree: AltanBakshi, AP
    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Governance problem is not specific to particular regions, but the whole country - which is to say, it is a governance "problem" relative to aspirations to be a self-determined European* nation state, that people like Mazzini aspired to.

    If the aspiration is an late-stage of imperialist, multinational federation, sending resources to a "khanate" or "court" in Moscow; then there is no "problem"; politics in Russia is well organized and coherent for maintaining the current system.

    In my opinion, it probably could not be so different than what it is. This is what is inherited (late-stage imperialism), and the politics system is working within such limits that were inherited by history.


    -

    * Of course, a nationalist critique, is not just relative to the European nationalities. For example, in Russia, there are noneuropean nationalities like Yakuts that don't see much of the money that was generated in their homelands - but a lot of which ends in non-Yakut Moscow (if not Monaco, et al).

    From Yeats, Byron, Herzl or Janacek , a dream of nationalism is usually more animating when supporting small nationalities that are occupied by empires, rather than the large nationalities which operate empires.

    So far as today is concerned, based on half a century of capitalism. Czechia was as rich as Austria in the 1930s.

     

    That's the point. Czechs have been a culturally (if not geopolitically) advanced nationality for centuries, although under ultimate occupation of foreign empires.

    And in Kafka stories of Czech settings, more than a century ago, the characters are businessmen and insurance agents, going to work by train in industrialized cities.

    Czech Republic's success today was not a result of some special magic dust, whether nationalism or capitalism. Although EU funding and living next to the economic supergiant of German, has not exactly harmed their financial position.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  244. @Ron Unz
    @Thorfinnsson


    Operation Pike did not actually take place, which is why you do not find it extensively written about. Is this mysterious to you? Perhaps you find it very interesting that historians are deeply reluctant to write at length about Operation Felix, the proposed Axis assault on Gibraltar which never took place....There is no turning point stemming from Operation Pike because nothing happened. I’m not really sure why you think historians refusing to devote themselves to events that never took place constitutes evidence of a coverup.
     
    You're making yourself look foolish by denying the obvious. Germany and the Allies were at war, and Gibraltar was an obvious strategic target. A German assault might have been successful or not, and might have been cost-effective or not, but that's an entirely different scenario than an Allied attack on the USSR in early 1940.

    You say the silence is explained by the fact that it never happened. Okay. Yet oddly enough, all the history books provide substantial mention of the German plans for a possible invasion of Britain in 1940, which also never happened. Attacking the USSR and bringing it into the war would have been far more momentous.

    And the planned attack wasn't merely one of those endless military "hypotheticals." Unmarked Allied planes were already illegally overflying Soviet airspace to select initial bombing targets. Detailed negotiations were taking place with the Turks and the Iranians to enlist them in the attack on the USSR. Target dates for the attack had been set on several occasions and then postponed. It appears that the main reason the attack never took place was the German conquest of France. The Germans then seized and published all the secret French documents so that every well-informed observer soon became aware of the plans.

    And it sounds like you admit that the strategic Allied bombing offense would have been the largest in world history, intended to entirely destroy the Soviet oil industry, thereby perhaps causing a famine that would overthrow Stalin's regime.

    Consider something that is always mentioned in almost every WWII history book. The following year, the British government repeatedly attempted to warn Stalin that Hitler was planning to attack, but Stalin disregarded those warnings, and the books tend to explain this as due to Stalin's "paranoia." But Stalin knew perfectly well that less than a year earlier the British had been planning an all-out attack against the USSR, and surely that was a contributing factor. Yet not a single history book ever mentions this obvious and important fact, and I doubt whether even 0.1% of the readers are aware of it. You argue that's not a cover-up, so I guess you believe that the books lacked space for an additional sentence or two of explanation.

    Here's another example. It seems pretty solidly established that the Allies tried and failed to assassinate Charles de Gaulle and the Americans decided to assassinate Chiang Kai-shek, but later changed their minds. Your theory is that these incidents were excluded from all the history books because they never happened. Okay, but it seems pretty likely that Sikorski, the leader of the Polish government in exile, was assassinated in exactly that same way, and the reality of that particular incident has also been excluded from all the history books.

    It's hardly the most surprising thing in the world for a nation's historians to cover up very embarrassing aspects of their major wars. And to completely deny that reality makes someone look rather ridiculous.

    Replies: @JohnnyWalker123, @Thorfinnsson, @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    Americans decided to assassinate Chiang Kai-shek, but later changed their minds

    This is new to me that I have to look into. That said, from 1943-45, Chiang considered on occasion of cutting a separate deal* with the Japanese.

    *Of course Germans also tried to mediate in 1937/8 between Chiang and Japan, but that was kiboshed for various reasons.

    • Replies: @Ron Unz
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms



    Americans decided to assassinate Chiang Kai-shek, but later changed their minds
     
    This is new to me that I have to look into. That said, from 1943-45, Chiang considered on occasion of cutting a separate deal* with the Japanese
     
    McMeekin makes a strong case that Soviet agents in DC were behind the decision to assassinate Chiang.
  245. @Bashibuzuk
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Imperialism is so 19th century. Archaeofuturism is the way forward! Back to the clans, tribes, lineages, spiritual brotherhoods. Those who do not understand this trend are backward.

    Around 80% of genetic lineages will probably not make it through this hundred years. It's already a major bottleneck in most developed countries, it'll spread accross the globe in the next decades. People will need not geopolitics, but their kin and kind.

    Those without their clan and their tribe are already dead men/women walking. Hope you won't be one of these. It would be a shame to lose your genetic lineage, you should get sequenced and put your genomic data in some public database. My offspring might need some of those high IQ alleles of yours to genetically optimize their cognitive processes.

    🙂

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    There’s politically nothing as perennial as Imperialism, but your Archeo-Futurism is nothing else than a dream.

  246. @Bashibuzuk
    @Mr. Hack

    Both Slavs and Finno-Ugric populations in modern day RusFed territory are mostly Corded Ware derived. The linguistic split was due to the influence of Unetice Culture on proto-Balto-Slavs and of Seima-Turbino and Akozino-Malar (Akozino-Ananiyno in Russian) on the Finno-Ugric populations.

    People tend to forget that ancient Rus proto-State started around Novgorod and Old Ladoga at least a hundred years before it moved to Kiev. And Novgorod stayed an important center of Rus identity until Muscovy broke its neck and destroyed its republican system (which was the archaic Slav system BTW).

    Finno-Ugric and Slavic tribes cohabitation in Novgorod lands goes back to at least around the early 7th century CE, while the proto-Corded Ware Y haplogroup R1a populations are dated to some 15 000 years ago in Karelia. We are native in this land from the Elbe to the Xinjiang. We have always lived side by side with those whom we have come today to identifying as Finno-Ugric or Turkic populations. Genetically speaking, most of them are our distant cousins remove by perhaps less than a hundred generations.

    That is why the narrow-minded view held by some Svidomites of Moskaly/Katsapy as being "Ugric " mongrels or by some Russian Supremacists of Khokhly being "Turkic " mongrels is completely misleading. Genetically speaking all these populations are very close. And they are also culturally compatible. That is if we adopt the attitude we had for thousands of years: live and let live. Collaborate when needed, fight when it cannot be avoided. Then work together again...

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    Do you know about Haplogroup N?
    It’s shared by 60% of Finns/Estonians and about 10% of Hans/Koreans/Mongols

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liao_civilization#People
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_N-M231#Ancient_peoples

    The founders of Sui-Tang dynasties, of mixed Han-Xianbei ancestry, were Haplo N

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    Look at my comments history, I have written about Y haplogroup N a couple of times.

  247. @Anatoly Karlin
    @Mr. Hack

    That is correct. Ethnic Russians are about 65% even of the "economic elites" (billionaires) and probably something like 85%-90% of the political ones. Yet another Bashibuzuk fantasy.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    I guess Bashibuzuk won’t be happy untill 100% of Russia’s citizenry becomes homogenized into the new Russian clan man? On the other hand he states:

    That is why the narrow-minded view held by some Svidomites of Moskaly/Katsapy as being “Ugric ” mongrels or by some Russian Supremacists of Khokhly being “Turkic ” mongrels is completely misleading. Genetically speaking all these populations are very close. And they are also culturally compatible. That is if we adopt the attitude we had for thousands of years: live and let live. Collaborate when needed, fight when it cannot be avoided. Then work together again…

    that indicates that other non-Russian ethnicities can live in harmony with the Russian ethnos. This would mean that the 100% homogenization process I allude to above is not necessary for a “real” Russia to exist, and what appears to already be in place. He’s an incredibly intelligent guy, whose comments I love to read and contemplate, but he does seem a little contradictory here?

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @Mr. Hack


    he does seem a little contradictory here?
     
    Mr Hack, reality is inherently dialectic. One has always to achieve a balance. Too much or too little are both wrong. I believe that the best possible conditions for the survival and development of native genetic lineages are the goal that should be pursued by Russian nationalists.

    The majority of these lineages are Slav derived, all the better, but those which are not Slav-derived are not worse (or better) and should also be taken care of to ensure their future.

    I mean, each of our genetic lineages has a billion years' evolutionary struggle behind it. It I to be respected.

    Sadly, I don't think that the majority of the genetic lineages found on the current RusFed territory will make it to the twenty-second century. Partly this is due to people thinking in outdated terms.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  248. @Anatoly Karlin
    @Yellowface Anon

    Eliminating sovok federalism (de facto) has been one of the defining goals of Russian nationalism for decades. There have finally been major successes in that respect in the past few years, with Russians (and Bashkirs) in Tatarstan no longer being obligated to learn Russian. Promoting regional autonomies is a traditional foreign agenda that has always had the breakup of Russia as its ultimate goal.

    Yet again, it is unsurprising that Bashibuzuk "thanks" this comment.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @Yellowface Anon

    What are you implying about my ideology? I have never liked those “HK Independence” or “Free HK” types.

  249. @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @Bashibuzuk

    Do you know about Haplogroup N?
    It's shared by 60% of Finns/Estonians and about 10% of Hans/Koreans/Mongols

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Liao_civilization#People
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haplogroup_N-M231#Ancient_peoples

    The founders of Sui-Tang dynasties, of mixed Han-Xianbei ancestry, were Haplo N

    https://i.imgur.com/RK58DYql.png

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    Look at my comments history, I have written about Y haplogroup N a couple of times.

  250. Bashibuzuk says:
    @Mr. Hack
    @Anatoly Karlin

    I guess Bashibuzuk won't be happy untill 100% of Russia's citizenry becomes homogenized into the new Russian clan man? On the other hand he states:


    That is why the narrow-minded view held by some Svidomites of Moskaly/Katsapy as being “Ugric ” mongrels or by some Russian Supremacists of Khokhly being “Turkic ” mongrels is completely misleading. Genetically speaking all these populations are very close. And they are also culturally compatible. That is if we adopt the attitude we had for thousands of years: live and let live. Collaborate when needed, fight when it cannot be avoided. Then work together again…
     
    that indicates that other non-Russian ethnicities can live in harmony with the Russian ethnos. This would mean that the 100% homogenization process I allude to above is not necessary for a "real" Russia to exist, and what appears to already be in place. He's an incredibly intelligent guy, whose comments I love to read and contemplate, but he does seem a little contradictory here?

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    he does seem a little contradictory here?

    Mr Hack, reality is inherently dialectic. One has always to achieve a balance. Too much or too little are both wrong. I believe that the best possible conditions for the survival and development of native genetic lineages are the goal that should be pursued by Russian nationalists.

    The majority of these lineages are Slav derived, all the better, but those which are not Slav-derived are not worse (or better) and should also be taken care of to ensure their future.

    I mean, each of our genetic lineages has a billion years’ evolutionary struggle behind it. It I to be respected.

    Sadly, I don’t think that the majority of the genetic lineages found on the current RusFed territory will make it to the twenty-second century. Partly this is due to people thinking in outdated terms.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Bashibuzuk


    Sadly, I don’t think that the majority of the genetic lineages found on the current RusFed territory will make it to the twenty-second century. Partly this is due to people thinking in outdated terms.
     
    So, a nation state, as you envision it probably will never come to fruition, making the current state structure in Russia not truly a Russian state. How do you recognize "the demographic and spiritual weakening of the Russian ethnos" today and who exactly is behind it and for what reason?

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  251. @The Big Red Scary
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Is there a Russian Gregory Clark, who has studied persistence of social class through both Bolshevik and Oligarchic revolutions? In the latter case, it is clear, in the former case less so.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin, @Rattus Norwegius

    https://osf.io/preprints/socarxiv/gnypr/

    Enemies of the people

    Abstract
    Enemies of the people were the millions of artists, engineers, professors, and affluent peasants that were thought a threat to the Soviet regime for being the educated elite, and were forcedly resettled to the Gulag, i.e. the system of forced labor camps across the Soviet Union. In this paper we look at the long-run consequences of this dark re-location episode. We show that areas around camps with a larger share of enemies among camp prisoners are more prosperous today, as captured by firms’ wages and profits, as well as night lights per capita. We also show that the descendants of enemies are more likely to be tertiary educated today. Our results point in the direction of a long-run persistence of education and a resulting positive effect on local economic outcomes. A 28 percentage point increase in the share of enemies increases night lights per capita by 58%, profits per employee by 65%, and average wages by 22%.

  252. AP says:
    @AltanBakshi
    @AP


    I suspect that PLC elite was much more Polish, Lithuanian and Ruthenian (all natives) than were the elites in Russia (initially Rurikids, before they assimilated, many of Tatar descent, to which were added plenty of Germans, Poles, Lithuanians, some Georgians). PLC had the Swedish Vasa dynasty, but Romanovs were Germans for far longer than the Vasas ruled Poland, which had outstanding Polish or Lithuanian rulers like Sobieski.
     
    As we well know, PLC was a personal union, in the Lithuanian part Ruthenian and Lithuanian native elites got Polonized, well at least culturally and religiously. You are such a PLC fan boy that it doesn't even matter what I will write, but in the Lithuanian part elites increasingly spoke not Ruthenian or Lithuanian, which were the native languages of Lithuania, but Polish, also outside of ethnic Lithuanian lands majority of population was Orthodox or Greek Catholics, therefore elites of duchy of Lithuania did mostly not share the language nor the religion of their subjects, in such way the situation was more extreme than in Russia, same could be said of Ukrainian, Volhynian and Galician parts of Poland. As numerous Ruthenian/Ukrainian revolts and massacres of local Poles and Jews show us, there was no ethnic-cultural or religious unity in Poland.

    AP England herself was ruled by Dutch and German kings from the time of William III to, well to present era. Does Glorious revolution or Hanover say anything, for 18th century English kings usually spoke better German than English...

    PLC is one of the shittiest European major powers ever to exist, by the means of a lucky marriage, Szlachta gained an empire made by Lithuanians, had it's heyday only for a century, before getting utterly devastated by Sweden and Cossack revolts, afterwards continuous strife between unruly members of elite, who were ready to sell their country for the highest bidder, periodic civil wars, weak kings, PLC was an eastern European proto-oligarchy, utter trash and waste.

    Oh wait what were the Bourbons and Habsburgs of the Spain? Or the current royal dynasty of Sweden, which was established by one of the marshals of Napoleon? What about Greeks, Romanians and Bulgarians who were ruled by men who were fully German by their heritage.

    Stop AP this sillyness, Russia's situation was no way extreme.

    And Bashi your history narrative makes niggers out of the Russians. "White man enslaved my ancestors," just replace white man with German or something and then you have Bashi's view of Russian history!

    Replies: @AP

    in the Lithuanian part elites increasingly spoke not Ruthenian or Lithuanian, which were the native languages of Lithuania, but Polish, also outside of ethnic Lithuanian lands majority of population was Orthodox or Greek Catholics, therefore elites of duchy of Lithuania did mostly not share the language nor the religion of their subjects, in such way the situation was more extreme than in Russia

    Yes but the elites were primarily natives. It is their privilege to choose whether they or their people will be pagan or Christian or what language they speak. Russian elites were to large extent of non-native descent (German, Norse, Lithuanian, Tatar, Georgian) speaking Russian, those of PLC were natives, locals, who often chose to speak Polish in Rus and Lithuanian
    lands. It’s an interesting contrast.

    AP England herself was ruled by Dutch and German kings from the time of William III to, well to present era

    You are narrowing the subject to royal families. I was speaking of entire ruling or elite classes. Yes many countries had foreign kings but few had such a foreign ruling class. Only England after the Norman invasion was more extreme, when it comes to independent countries.

    PLC is one of the shittiest European major powers ever to exist, by the means of a lucky marriage, Szlachta gained an empire made by Lithuanians, had it’s heyday only for a century

    It was a rough neighborhood. Hapsburgs were more successful, but PLC outlasted the second and third German Empires who were in a similar place.

  253. @Bashibuzuk
    @Mr. Hack


    he does seem a little contradictory here?
     
    Mr Hack, reality is inherently dialectic. One has always to achieve a balance. Too much or too little are both wrong. I believe that the best possible conditions for the survival and development of native genetic lineages are the goal that should be pursued by Russian nationalists.

    The majority of these lineages are Slav derived, all the better, but those which are not Slav-derived are not worse (or better) and should also be taken care of to ensure their future.

    I mean, each of our genetic lineages has a billion years' evolutionary struggle behind it. It I to be respected.

    Sadly, I don't think that the majority of the genetic lineages found on the current RusFed territory will make it to the twenty-second century. Partly this is due to people thinking in outdated terms.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Sadly, I don’t think that the majority of the genetic lineages found on the current RusFed territory will make it to the twenty-second century. Partly this is due to people thinking in outdated terms.

    So, a nation state, as you envision it probably will never come to fruition, making the current state structure in Russia not truly a Russian state. How do you recognize “the demographic and spiritual weakening of the Russian ethnos” today and who exactly is behind it and for what reason?

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @Mr. Hack

    Yes I believe that a Russian nation state is a vision that will never be realized. I actually came to this conclusion many years ago (around 1996), around the same time that opted to exit from the Russian Orthodox Church and for similar reasons. The State and Church structures are nowadays coopted by self-serving elites which are fully integrated into the globalized economy. Their interest is to increase their share of the pie, they don't care much for anything else.

    The globalized economy has a center and a periphery, RusFed is the provider of natural ressources on the periphery of the globalized economic system. It is in the interest of the RusFed elites to minimize wages and infrastructure expenditures, hence the joke that: Зачем Русским деньги ? (Русским денег не давать). Also, these elites are well aware of the functioning of the globalized economy and they want their offspring to live in its center, not on the periphery, hence the outflow of up to 1,5 trillion US $ since the downfall of the Soviet Union. These moneys would have led to a considerable increase in living standards if they stayed in RusFed.

    Finally, these elites, for a variety of reasons (some of them purely psychological) are comfortable with a cognitive, psychological and therefore spiritual decline in their "controlled population " just like a farmer is perhaps interested in dumbing down its cattle a bit. Cows and sheep are after all easier to manage than aurochs and big horn rams. This whole situation ends up crystallized in lower TFR, emptying hinterland, childless couples in megalopolises and a dumbed down and neurotic populace.

    Of course, this is also common to other Globalist ruled countries and nations, but the difference are 1) RudFed elites are pretending that they're not Globalist, 2) some Globalist-led countries are closer to the economic core and are therefore more affluent than the periphery.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AP, @Coconuts

  254. @Bashibuzuk
    @AltanBakshi

    Slavs are directly descended from the Corded Ware folks. Corded Ware folks lived in all o Northern Central Europe up to today's Netherlands.

    Basically, one could build a narrative of eternal struggle of the Corded Ware descended people against the unrelenting aggression by the Western European Bell Beaker derived ethnic groups. Then one makes the Tollensee battle into the foundation of a Corded Ware derived identity et voilà!

    https://www.military-history.org/news/new-discoveries-throw-fresh-light-on-bronze-age-battle.htm

    Не забудем, не простим Толенскую битву!

    Western Europeans, give us back our half of Europe up to Netherlands and go back to Spain where your Mediterranean swarthy ancestors swarmed from. Or pay reparations for our Nakba and thousands years old Apartheid...

    😉

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    It’s really none of my business, but I suspect that you might be having some kind of “inter-familial” strife that you’re dealing with. When you try to figure out why Junior is behaving oddly, you probably pinpoint the malady to some sort of receding Bell Beaker gene that is unexpectedly flaring up. It couldn’t possibly be due to your own pure Corded Ware input to Junior’s genetic make-up. Although slightly murky, don’t most researchers consider Celtic DNA to be closely related to Corded Ware?

    Не забудем, не простим Толенскую битву!

    I share your interest in ancient peoples and genetics, but isn’t this taking things a little bit too far? 🙂

    • LOL: AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Mr. Hack

    Should be:


    Although slightly murky, don’t most researchers consider Celtic DNA to be closely related to Bell Beaker?
     
    , @Bashibuzuk
    @Mr. Hack

    Yes, when Juniors misbehave it's entirely the fault of their Western European ancestry.

    (My wife probably thinks exactly the opposite).

    Regarding Celts, the original Celts were of Eastern Bell Beaker ancestry. Eastern Bell Beaker folks were the result of the Bell Beaker males / Corded Ware female intermarriage.

    But my reply to Coconuts was a joke.

    🙂

    Replies: @Coconuts, @Mr. Hack, @iffen

  255. Bashibuzuk says:
    @Mr. Hack
    @Bashibuzuk


    Sadly, I don’t think that the majority of the genetic lineages found on the current RusFed territory will make it to the twenty-second century. Partly this is due to people thinking in outdated terms.
     
    So, a nation state, as you envision it probably will never come to fruition, making the current state structure in Russia not truly a Russian state. How do you recognize "the demographic and spiritual weakening of the Russian ethnos" today and who exactly is behind it and for what reason?

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    Yes I believe that a Russian nation state is a vision that will never be realized. I actually came to this conclusion many years ago (around 1996), around the same time that opted to exit from the Russian Orthodox Church and for similar reasons. The State and Church structures are nowadays coopted by self-serving elites which are fully integrated into the globalized economy. Their interest is to increase their share of the pie, they don’t care much for anything else.

    The globalized economy has a center and a periphery, RusFed is the provider of natural ressources on the periphery of the globalized economic system. It is in the interest of the RusFed elites to minimize wages and infrastructure expenditures, hence the joke that: Зачем Русским деньги ? (Русским денег не давать). Also, these elites are well aware of the functioning of the globalized economy and they want their offspring to live in its center, not on the periphery, hence the outflow of up to 1,5 trillion US $ since the downfall of the Soviet Union. These moneys would have led to a considerable increase in living standards if they stayed in RusFed.

    Finally, these elites, for a variety of reasons (some of them purely psychological) are comfortable with a cognitive, psychological and therefore spiritual decline in their “controlled population ” just like a farmer is perhaps interested in dumbing down its cattle a bit. Cows and sheep are after all easier to manage than aurochs and big horn rams. This whole situation ends up crystallized in lower TFR, emptying hinterland, childless couples in megalopolises and a dumbed down and neurotic populace.

    Of course, this is also common to other Globalist ruled countries and nations, but the difference are 1) RudFed elites are pretending that they’re not Globalist, 2) some Globalist-led countries are closer to the economic core and are therefore more affluent than the periphery.

    • Thanks: Mr. Hack, Yellowface Anon
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Bashibuzuk

    Hard to criticize your well thought out opinion here. It would be real interesting to get Karlin to chime in here, or anybody else for that matter! Thanks!

    , @AP
    @Bashibuzuk


    Also, these elites are well aware of the functioning of the globalized economy and they want their offspring to live in its center, not on the periphery, hence the outflow of up to 1,5 trillion US $ since the downfall of the Soviet Union. These moneys would have led to a considerable increase in living standards if they stayed in RusFed.
     
    I’ll note the contrast here with the pre-Bolshevik elite. During World War I they felt that it was their duty to support their country and sold foreign assets and properties, bringing money back to Russia. Of course this meant that as a result of the Revolution they became impoverished. The Soviet system produced a different sort of elite.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @Dmitry

    , @Coconuts
    @Bashibuzuk


    This whole situation ends up crystallized in lower TFR, emptying hinterland, childless couples in megalopolises and a dumbed down and neurotic populace.
     
    A perceptible and rapid dumbing down does seem to be taking place. Since the Woke thing started off and on I have been reading some books by famous Frankfurt School authors, the other night I started Dialectic of Enlightenment. This will be a slow read.

    Current Social Justice literature is not like this.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  256. @Mr. Hack
    @Bashibuzuk

    It's really none of my business, but I suspect that you might be having some kind of "inter-familial" strife that you're dealing with. When you try to figure out why Junior is behaving oddly, you probably pinpoint the malady to some sort of receding Bell Beaker gene that is unexpectedly flaring up. It couldn't possibly be due to your own pure Corded Ware input to Junior's genetic make-up. Although slightly murky, don't most researchers consider Celtic DNA to be closely related to Corded Ware?


    Не забудем, не простим Толенскую битву!
     
    I share your interest in ancient peoples and genetics, but isn't this taking things a little bit too far? :-)

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Bashibuzuk

    Should be:

    Although slightly murky, don’t most researchers consider Celtic DNA to be closely related to Bell Beaker?

  257. @Bashibuzuk
    @Mr. Hack

    Yes I believe that a Russian nation state is a vision that will never be realized. I actually came to this conclusion many years ago (around 1996), around the same time that opted to exit from the Russian Orthodox Church and for similar reasons. The State and Church structures are nowadays coopted by self-serving elites which are fully integrated into the globalized economy. Their interest is to increase their share of the pie, they don't care much for anything else.

    The globalized economy has a center and a periphery, RusFed is the provider of natural ressources on the periphery of the globalized economic system. It is in the interest of the RusFed elites to minimize wages and infrastructure expenditures, hence the joke that: Зачем Русским деньги ? (Русским денег не давать). Also, these elites are well aware of the functioning of the globalized economy and they want their offspring to live in its center, not on the periphery, hence the outflow of up to 1,5 trillion US $ since the downfall of the Soviet Union. These moneys would have led to a considerable increase in living standards if they stayed in RusFed.

    Finally, these elites, for a variety of reasons (some of them purely psychological) are comfortable with a cognitive, psychological and therefore spiritual decline in their "controlled population " just like a farmer is perhaps interested in dumbing down its cattle a bit. Cows and sheep are after all easier to manage than aurochs and big horn rams. This whole situation ends up crystallized in lower TFR, emptying hinterland, childless couples in megalopolises and a dumbed down and neurotic populace.

    Of course, this is also common to other Globalist ruled countries and nations, but the difference are 1) RudFed elites are pretending that they're not Globalist, 2) some Globalist-led countries are closer to the economic core and are therefore more affluent than the periphery.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @AP, @Coconuts

    Hard to criticize your well thought out opinion here. It would be real interesting to get Karlin to chime in here, or anybody else for that matter! Thanks!

  258. Bashibuzuk says:
    @Mr. Hack
    @Bashibuzuk

    It's really none of my business, but I suspect that you might be having some kind of "inter-familial" strife that you're dealing with. When you try to figure out why Junior is behaving oddly, you probably pinpoint the malady to some sort of receding Bell Beaker gene that is unexpectedly flaring up. It couldn't possibly be due to your own pure Corded Ware input to Junior's genetic make-up. Although slightly murky, don't most researchers consider Celtic DNA to be closely related to Corded Ware?


    Не забудем, не простим Толенскую битву!
     
    I share your interest in ancient peoples and genetics, but isn't this taking things a little bit too far? :-)

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @Bashibuzuk

    Yes, when Juniors misbehave it’s entirely the fault of their Western European ancestry.

    (My wife probably thinks exactly the opposite).

    Regarding Celts, the original Celts were of Eastern Bell Beaker ancestry. Eastern Bell Beaker folks were the result of the Bell Beaker males / Corded Ware female intermarriage.

    But my reply to Coconuts was a joke.

    🙂

    • Replies: @Coconuts
    @Bashibuzuk

    I was going to reply to this part