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I didn’t take any good photos recently, so here’s a video with creepy music instead – the better to with this scifi horror short story that I read recently, “Lena” on ems by qntm.

Much darker vision than Hanson’s. Though I suppose if there are trillions of ems, only a small percentage of them will be in simulations run by sadists. Unfortunate instances regardless, net welfare will likely be way higher (at least until Malthusianism sets in).

There’s some vigorous debates (read: mud-flinging) on whether Navalny is a nationalist. They all miss the point. I need to do a writeup of that thread while people are still interested.

 
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  1. This is the current Open Thread, where anything goes – within reason.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

    Commenting rules. Please note that anonymous comments are not allowed.

  2. Game was trash so maybe not perhaps not a big issue…

    • Agree: Yevardian
    • LOL: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @blatnoi
    @Shortsword

    Really, Cyberpunk 2077 was trash? I read lots of good things about it as long as you get it for PC, where the bugs are minimal. Why was it bad exactly? Since it didn't get overwhelmingly good reviews, I was thinking of skipping it this year anyways since there are lots of other games to catch up on. There was a Polish nationalist on Twitter who was quite proud of it too...

    Replies: @Shortsword

  3. @Insomniac Resurrected
    Aliev says Pashinyan is full of goat droppings...

    https://insomniacresurrected.com/2021/02/26/the-president-of-azerbaijan-says-iskander-missiles-werent-used-against-azeri-military/

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

    Based Roach.

  4. Biden introduces new paint scheme for Air Force B-52’s.

    PEACE 😇
     

    • LOL: Kolya Krassotkin
  5. Read understand American culture and decline, Read, Christopher Lasch’s revolt of the elites and the culture of narcissism.

    tl;dr atomized boomers and capitalism are a match made in heaven. the emphasis on social ties and morals of self discipline, modesty and rigor have been replaced by what P.T Barnum called “money getting” (barnum wrote a neat primer http://www.gutenberg.org/files/8581/8581-h/8581-h.htm one of Donald trump’s favorite books)

    to the extant that boomers admire old values such as self discipline, modesty etc. it is in the service of money getting. furthermore the value of money getting is also accompanied by extravagance and the pursuit of pleasure.

    Another neat read is the chapter, future perspectives in Carroll Quigley’s tragedy and hope available for free online http://www.carrollquigley.net/books.htm

    • Agree: Not Raul
  6. Some way to start the day. Mike Cernovich — at least he has a sense of humor.

  7. Another example of how Counterpunch has changed:

    https://www.counterpunch.org/2021/02/26/vladimir-putins-very-bad-week/

    • Replies: @Shortsword
    @Mikhail



    Alexei Navalny is considered the bravest man in the world

     

    LOL.

    Complete joke article obviously. Protests just getting started? In reality the complete opposite. Prisons getting full? This is a funny one considering incarceration rate in Russia is decreasing every year.

    A lot of links in the text. Mostly mainstream anti-Russian propaganda. I think the idea is that it makes the article look more journalistic. The more sources the better.

    I rarely read anything from Counterpunch but isn't it supposed to oppositional and anti-mainstream?

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Mikhail

    , @BBerliner
    @Mikhail

    From Counterpunch to KosherPunch under Jeffrey St. Clair and Joshua Frank.

    Imagine, Linh Dinh and C.J. Hopkins among others wrote for Counterpunch.


    Counterpunch Shadowboxes and Loses

    Edward Curtin

    The well-known leftist website Counterpunch is an example of the “never apologize, never explain” school. A number of writers and journalists who have published many pieces at Counterpunch have been banned from the site in recent years without an explanation, Andre Vltchek and C.J. Hopkins being two who crossed an invisible boundary the Shadow had drawn and were never again published by Counterpunch. Others, smelling an odd odor, have walked away. The numbers are growing.

    I’ve recently seen Counterpunch shadowbox and the Shadow won.

    https://off-guardian.org/2019/02/21/counterpunch-shadowboxes-and-loses/
     

    Replies: @Mikhail

  8. Tesla stock now 25% below the top. That still puts them at a highly overvalued $640B market cap. For comparison, Toyota $200B and Volkswagen $100B.

  9. @Mikhail
    Another example of how Counterpunch has changed:

    https://www.counterpunch.org/2021/02/26/vladimir-putins-very-bad-week/

    Replies: @Shortsword, @BBerliner

    Alexei Navalny is considered the bravest man in the world

    LOL.

    Complete joke article obviously. Protests just getting started? In reality the complete opposite. Prisons getting full? This is a funny one considering incarceration rate in Russia is decreasing every year.

    A lot of links in the text. Mostly mainstream anti-Russian propaganda. I think the idea is that it makes the article look more journalistic. The more sources the better.

    I rarely read anything from Counterpunch but isn’t it supposed to oppositional and anti-mainstream?

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @Shortsword

    The powerful take in long-form was delightful.

    , @Mikhail
    @Shortsword

    "I rarely read anything from Counterpunch but isn’t it supposed to oppositional and anti-mainstream?"

    ****

    On Russia matters, it has developed into something like Democracy Now. This started to happen when Alexander Cockburn passed away.

  10. I find it interesting how the two women who made up the 90s/early 00s Russian pop group “Tatu” have now reinvented themselves as conservative, anti-LGBT Orthodox Christian women when the whole theme of “Tatu” was overtly pro-LGBT, degenerate, Atheistic, etc.

    It just goes to show how much mainstream Russian culture has shifted in a short space of time and how people just mold themselves and their values to conform with the current “zeitgeist”.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @Europe Europa

    Women being women. Though tbf, you often most hate the evil that you've been part of and am familiar with the depth of it.

    It's a kind of redemption. Redemption has a price.

    , @Dmitry
    @Europe Europa

    Those girls are not original artists, but two actresses, who were hired to perform a specific character (anime pseudojapanese schoolgirl lesbians for clickbait).

    When actors stop to receive a salary, as in Tatu's case for a number of years, then they stop acting in the character they were hired to be. I.e. they speak as themselves, instead of fake Japanese anime kissing lesbian schoolgirls.

    This is partly what allowed Tatu to be a relative peak of postsoviet pop - because it's such a fake manufactured group, it had talented professional musicians writing their music and songs, and their songs were therefore quite good.

    Pop music in Russia in the 2000s while highly cynical manufactured clickbait, was also more decentralized from the politicians, and postsoviet pop had original locally-specific melodies and instrumentation, which was like the accumulated capital that was developed by talented producers of postsoviet pop in the 1990s.


    -

    2000-2010 could be seen almost as a "Age of Tatu", when Russian mainstream pop videos still has an original national sound, and Tatu were futuristically predicting the pseudojapanese aesthetics + nonbinary looking women, that would become later fashionable in the West in the decade 2010s.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4FYO8tGToU

    2010-2020 I would say the trend of pop videos is a postmodernist "Age of Timati", when mainstream rappers like Timati or Geegun, are Mountain Jews, or Bulgarians (e.g. Doni) or Ossetians, that pretend to be African Americans, and closely connected with politicians , and more self-serious stars were coming Belarus (e.g. Max Korzh)

    If in beginning of the decade 2010s, there was an attempt to promote heterosexual versions of Tatu (e.g. Nyusha), by the end of the decade the direction of pop videos in Russia was postmodernist comedy clickbait to the computerized youth.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcXNXnUr16Q

    2020-2030 - the pop videos is going to turn to pure clickbait comedy for the increasingly computerized generation - what kind of omen is this rapper Morgenstern for the decade.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdk4hVPN_F0

    Replies: @songbird, @Insomniac Resurrected

  11. @Shortsword
    @Mikhail



    Alexei Navalny is considered the bravest man in the world

     

    LOL.

    Complete joke article obviously. Protests just getting started? In reality the complete opposite. Prisons getting full? This is a funny one considering incarceration rate in Russia is decreasing every year.

    A lot of links in the text. Mostly mainstream anti-Russian propaganda. I think the idea is that it makes the article look more journalistic. The more sources the better.

    I rarely read anything from Counterpunch but isn't it supposed to oppositional and anti-mainstream?

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Mikhail

    The powerful take in long-form was delightful.

  12. @Europe Europa
    I find it interesting how the two women who made up the 90s/early 00s Russian pop group "Tatu" have now reinvented themselves as conservative, anti-LGBT Orthodox Christian women when the whole theme of "Tatu" was overtly pro-LGBT, degenerate, Atheistic, etc.

    It just goes to show how much mainstream Russian culture has shifted in a short space of time and how people just mold themselves and their values to conform with the current "zeitgeist".

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Dmitry

    Women being women. Though tbf, you often most hate the evil that you’ve been part of and am familiar with the depth of it.

    It’s a kind of redemption. Redemption has a price.

  13. Politics is the art of forcing everybody else to live by your values. It is the belief that there is only “one” right way that everyone must live.

    But must it always be so? At the root of the problem is the idea that “humanity” is a single organism rather than just a collection of individuals. Humanity is a protagonist in a drama that is going somewhere. Therefore we must fight over which vision of the “common good” will steer the ship of humanity.

    For an individual human, obviously he must choose one course of action. Humanity as an individual must obviously have only one course.

    This is a great example of how abstraction and language can trap people in self defeating fantasy – language is on some level a disease, despite its obvious advantages.

    A very simple solution for most of our political differences would simply be to create different living arrangements for different people.

    You want to live with only people of the same race as you? There are towns and cities for that. You enjoy living in a community with people from lots of different races and cultures? There are towns and cities for that.

    It’s funny how there are so many rational and sensible solutions to human problems, yet they never get implemented.

    It’s not just that humanity gets caught up in collective myths that are just the reification if language, it’s as if there is an irreducible element – a group of people – in humanity working against happiness.

    • Replies: @Boomthorkell
    @AaronB

    Yes. The greatest generally being that a sizeable enough minority or plurality of people really just despise the idea of letting others live lives that they do not agree with. At this point, the only true equality of lifestyle comes with power, and that power unfortunately is still currently concentrated in a a few people and fewer countries.

    Replies: @AaronB

    , @dfordoom
    @AaronB


    it’s as if there is an irreducible element – a group of people – in humanity working against happiness.
     
    That sounds plausible.

    Are people who are highly engaged politically generally happy? Are they generally successful and content in their personal lives? Are they psychologically stable? Are they people who would be regarded by others as pleasant people to be around?

    Is it possible that political engagement is a mental illness?

    And is it possible that a society in which huge numbers of people are passionately engaged in politics is actually a very sick society?

    In a sane society people would pursue love or friendship or sex or art or just doing things like they like doing.

    A major factor that works against human happiness is the desire to be useful (and politics is part of this unhealthy desire). We need to spend more time and energy on useless things. That's why art is worth pursuing. It's entirely useless. It exists merely for the pleasure of creating it or the pleasure of viewing it. Hobbies are useless, which is they're worth doing. Going for a walk in the park or along the beach is a useless activity which is why (if you happen to enjoy such things) you should do so.
  14. Is hardcore atheism and materialism primarily an urban phenomenon?

    The last 5 days I spent in solitude out in the desert. I am about 30 miles from a town and I have internet, so not true isolation or wilderness. It’s high altitude desert so the air is crystal clear and the nights cold. I am at the base of a jagged range of mountains, with gigantic boulder fields and jagged rock columns and spires – the kind of “badlands” scenery you often get in semi-desert areas.

    There are sweeping panoramic views in every direction, and at night small twinkling lights from isolated homes appear on the desert plain. There is a profound silence over the landscape, and there has been a rising moon the past few nights.

    I find myself at odd moments overwhelmed by an almost unbearable sense of the “numinous” and find myself flooded with thoughts of a great World Soul behind it all and in it all, and something indefinable and mysterious. And I sometimes catch myself laughing in gratitude.

    Don’t get me wrong – this is not a “theistic” feeling necessarily. If anything it’s more pantheistic – and it is more Taoistic in its sense of an indefinable force. But it makes me think that all our religious categories are really inadequate – theistic, pantheistic, Tao. Just inadequate words used to divide an ineffable reality.

    I wonder if true atheism – not defined as disbelief in the Christian God, but rather defined as the complete absence of the sense of the numinous that characterizes certain hardcore materialists – is only really possible in an urban environment?

    It is remarkable how humanity needs to step out of the human world on a regular basis and confront the “non-human” – and perhaps temporarily lay aside for a while the disease of language – in order to stay sane and come into contact with the deepest parts of himself and crucially – something beyond what he customarily takes for himself.

    The political insanity of modern time, the nervous tensions, the hatreds and obsessions, the anxieties and depressions, may simply be the result of being utterly immersed in a man-made world and the loss of contact with the Other, due to mass urbanisation and population pressure.

    • Agree: Carlo
    • Replies: @Carlo
    @AaronB

    You are into something here, and even though I am myself religious (traditional Catholic) I agree almost completely with your comment. The Indo-European word for God (*dyew) came from the bright clear sky. In larger urban areas the sense of infinite depth and transcendence of the sky, the diurnal and especially the nocturnal (due to luminic pollution) is lost. My own personal experience is that in the city I am always locked up with a roof over my head. As I myself am a traditional Catholic, I often go to a monastery in a rural area and an important part of my religious experience for me there is to contemplate the clear, unobstructed night sky.

    Replies: @AaronB, @Agathoklis

    , @BBerliner
    @AaronB

    Saint Anthony of Egypt, the original Desert Father, who spent many decades living ascetically in the Egyptian desert.



    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/8a/0a/59/8a0a59c93ef9b4d4eb14fa8af6872b66.jpg

     

    , @Mikel
    @AaronB


    I wonder if true atheism – not defined as disbelief in the Christian God, but rather defined as the complete absence of the sense of the numinous that characterizes certain hardcore materialists – is only really possible in an urban environment?
     
    I don't think so. I purposely live on the countryside and spend as much time as I can in the surrounding mountains and deserts (as a matter of fact, I'm taking to the road tonight and we may cross our paths somewhere in the Southwest, who knows) but this hasn't helped me much with my lack of religiosity.

    On the other hand, there is a deep and somewhat mysterious reason why I chose to live close to nature. I am not sure that I could express it properly with words. Being in contact with nature allows me to feel its beauty and its innate perfection, which are totally different from man-made works of art and engineering, and amazingly came about without anybody building it. Natural landscapes just formed themselves out of chaos and spontaneous natural forces but somehow we humans were born with the ability to appreciate its beauty and serenity. I'm not sure that any other animal has this ability.

    Being out in the middle of nature is also for me a humbling experience when I feel how fragile I am compared to its vastness and the power of its forces. But perhaps the most important feeling that I try to recreate is the happiness that I felt as a teenager when I saw virgin mountain landscapes for the first time. I guess being in nature is for me a way to try to find happiness in life and at least to some extent it works.

    Replies: @AaronB, @silviosilver, @dfordoom

    , @silviosilver
    @AaronB

    Aaron, I think I speak for everyone hear when I say we're all just touched that in these moments of peak spiritual elevation - aka shroom ingestion - it's us you think to share your insights with.

    And to be honest, although I seldom agree with much of what you say, it's sometimes just kinda fun to read along with you.

    Replies: @AaronB, @reiner Tor

  15. @Shortsword
    @Mikhail



    Alexei Navalny is considered the bravest man in the world

     

    LOL.

    Complete joke article obviously. Protests just getting started? In reality the complete opposite. Prisons getting full? This is a funny one considering incarceration rate in Russia is decreasing every year.

    A lot of links in the text. Mostly mainstream anti-Russian propaganda. I think the idea is that it makes the article look more journalistic. The more sources the better.

    I rarely read anything from Counterpunch but isn't it supposed to oppositional and anti-mainstream?

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Mikhail

    “I rarely read anything from Counterpunch but isn’t it supposed to oppositional and anti-mainstream?”

    ****

    On Russia matters, it has developed into something like Democracy Now. This started to happen when Alexander Cockburn passed away.

    • Agree: Not Raul
  16. @Mikhail
    Another example of how Counterpunch has changed:

    https://www.counterpunch.org/2021/02/26/vladimir-putins-very-bad-week/

    Replies: @Shortsword, @BBerliner

    From Counterpunch to KosherPunch under Jeffrey St. Clair and Joshua Frank.

    Imagine, Linh Dinh and C.J. Hopkins among others wrote for Counterpunch.

    Counterpunch Shadowboxes and Loses

    Edward Curtin

    The well-known leftist website Counterpunch is an example of the “never apologize, never explain” school. A number of writers and journalists who have published many pieces at Counterpunch have been banned from the site in recent years without an explanation, Andre Vltchek and C.J. Hopkins being two who crossed an invisible boundary the Shadow had drawn and were never again published by Counterpunch. Others, smelling an odd odor, have walked away. The numbers are growing.

    I’ve recently seen Counterpunch shadowbox and the Shadow won.

    https://off-guardian.org/2019/02/21/counterpunch-shadowboxes-and-loses/

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @BBerliner

    Some others as well. Mike Whitney hasn't been there for awhile, as well as some woman whose name presently escaped me.

    My last Counterpunch piece was awkwardly taken down from its homepage (while still otherwise being up as a link at that site), after Mark Galeotti bitched about it on TWITter.

    Louis Proyect a regular Counterpunch contributor, has posted Pilsudskiite and svido leaning BS at that site. There's something psycho rabid about him.

    Replies: @Shortsword, @Not Raul

  17. Was World War T designed as an attempt (successful) to weaponize the narcissism of trannies? And just the follow up to weaponizing the narcissism of gays? Which, in turn, was just the follow up to weaponizing the narcissism of blacks?

    • Replies: @Kent Nationalist
    @songbird

    There's a massive push also for lesbianism at the moment. I used to look at the schedules or reviews of new films coming out at arthouse cinemas and the non-black ones often had a lesbian relationship (usually with two young, cute actresses) even if they were not otherwise specifically homosexual films (unlike gay films, which had their own separate genre).

    I don't really understand the reason before this. Obviously lesbianism does not actually exist, so unlike with gay films there is no sort of market for these. The only thing I can think of is that it is a way for film directors and producers to fulfil diversity quotas (which already exist for many film awards) without showing male homosexuality, which is more viscerally disgusting.

    Replies: @songbird, @dfordoom, @reiner Tor

  18. @BBerliner
    @Mikhail

    From Counterpunch to KosherPunch under Jeffrey St. Clair and Joshua Frank.

    Imagine, Linh Dinh and C.J. Hopkins among others wrote for Counterpunch.


    Counterpunch Shadowboxes and Loses

    Edward Curtin

    The well-known leftist website Counterpunch is an example of the “never apologize, never explain” school. A number of writers and journalists who have published many pieces at Counterpunch have been banned from the site in recent years without an explanation, Andre Vltchek and C.J. Hopkins being two who crossed an invisible boundary the Shadow had drawn and were never again published by Counterpunch. Others, smelling an odd odor, have walked away. The numbers are growing.

    I’ve recently seen Counterpunch shadowbox and the Shadow won.

    https://off-guardian.org/2019/02/21/counterpunch-shadowboxes-and-loses/
     

    Replies: @Mikhail

    Some others as well. Mike Whitney hasn’t been there for awhile, as well as some woman whose name presently escaped me.

    My last Counterpunch piece was awkwardly taken down from its homepage (while still otherwise being up as a link at that site), after Mark Galeotti bitched about it on TWITter.

    Louis Proyect a regular Counterpunch contributor, has posted Pilsudskiite and svido leaning BS at that site. There’s something psycho rabid about him.

    • Replies: @Shortsword
    @Mikhail


    My last Counterpunch piece was awkwardly taken down from its homepage (while still otherwise being up as a link at that site), after Mark Galeotti bitched about it on TWITter.
     
    Twitter search doesn't show any mention of Counterpunch on Mark Galeotti's twitter account. What article was it?

    Replies: @Mikhail

    , @Not Raul
    @Mikhail

    Mike Whitney’s last Counterpunch article was about three years ago. Was there some sort of incident?

    Replies: @Mikhail

  19. @AaronB
    Is hardcore atheism and materialism primarily an urban phenomenon?

    The last 5 days I spent in solitude out in the desert. I am about 30 miles from a town and I have internet, so not true isolation or wilderness. It's high altitude desert so the air is crystal clear and the nights cold. I am at the base of a jagged range of mountains, with gigantic boulder fields and jagged rock columns and spires - the kind of "badlands" scenery you often get in semi-desert areas.

    There are sweeping panoramic views in every direction, and at night small twinkling lights from isolated homes appear on the desert plain. There is a profound silence over the landscape, and there has been a rising moon the past few nights.

    I find myself at odd moments overwhelmed by an almost unbearable sense of the "numinous" and find myself flooded with thoughts of a great World Soul behind it all and in it all, and something indefinable and mysterious. And I sometimes catch myself laughing in gratitude.

    Don't get me wrong - this is not a "theistic" feeling necessarily. If anything it's more pantheistic - and it is more Taoistic in its sense of an indefinable force. But it makes me think that all our religious categories are really inadequate - theistic, pantheistic, Tao. Just inadequate words used to divide an ineffable reality.

    I wonder if true atheism - not defined as disbelief in the Christian God, but rather defined as the complete absence of the sense of the numinous that characterizes certain hardcore materialists - is only really possible in an urban environment?

    It is remarkable how humanity needs to step out of the human world on a regular basis and confront the "non-human" - and perhaps temporarily lay aside for a while the disease of language - in order to stay sane and come into contact with the deepest parts of himself and crucially - something beyond what he customarily takes for himself.

    The political insanity of modern time, the nervous tensions, the hatreds and obsessions, the anxieties and depressions, may simply be the result of being utterly immersed in a man-made world and the loss of contact with the Other, due to mass urbanisation and population pressure.

    Replies: @Carlo, @BBerliner, @Mikel, @silviosilver

    You are into something here, and even though I am myself religious (traditional Catholic) I agree almost completely with your comment. The Indo-European word for God (*dyew) came from the bright clear sky. In larger urban areas the sense of infinite depth and transcendence of the sky, the diurnal and especially the nocturnal (due to luminic pollution) is lost. My own personal experience is that in the city I am always locked up with a roof over my head. As I myself am a traditional Catholic, I often go to a monastery in a rural area and an important part of my religious experience for me there is to contemplate the clear, unobstructed night sky.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    @Carlo

    Yes, I am not religious in the traditional sense, and I have religious friends who object to my forays into nature as frivolous and having nothing to do with religion - I try and explain to them I am closer to something that might be described as divine in nature than I can ever be in the cities.

    I am glad that your brand of traditional religion has retained this connection to nature. I love the old tradition of Catholic monasteries in lonely areas of great beauty.

    Replies: @Carlo

    , @Agathoklis
    @Carlo

    You guys should try getting laid.

  20. OT, Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation is weakening.

    The Atlantic Ocean circulation that underpins the Gulf Stream, the weather system that brings warm and mild weather to Europe, is at its weakest in more than a millennium, and climate breakdown is the probable cause, according to new data.

    Further weakening of the Atlantic Meridional Overturning Circulation (AMOC) could result in more storms battering the UK, more intense winters and an increase in damaging heatwaves and droughts across Europe.

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/feb/25/atlantic-ocean-circulation-at-weakest-in-a-millennium-say-scientists

    Ocean currents,” said Alexandrov. “I don’t understand,” said the Prime Minister.

    What I imagine Alexis means,” Kingsley remarked, “is that there is no certainty that the present pattern of ocean currents will be maintained. If it isn’t, the effects might be completely disastrous. And this might happen quite quickly, quicker than an Ice Age.

    You said it,” nodded Alexandrov. “Gulf Stream go, gets bloody cold.

    The Prime Minister felt he had heard enough.

    Fred Hoyle’s sci-fi classic The Black Cloud, 1957.

    https://epdf.pub/the-black-cloud.html

  21. @AaronB
    Is hardcore atheism and materialism primarily an urban phenomenon?

    The last 5 days I spent in solitude out in the desert. I am about 30 miles from a town and I have internet, so not true isolation or wilderness. It's high altitude desert so the air is crystal clear and the nights cold. I am at the base of a jagged range of mountains, with gigantic boulder fields and jagged rock columns and spires - the kind of "badlands" scenery you often get in semi-desert areas.

    There are sweeping panoramic views in every direction, and at night small twinkling lights from isolated homes appear on the desert plain. There is a profound silence over the landscape, and there has been a rising moon the past few nights.

    I find myself at odd moments overwhelmed by an almost unbearable sense of the "numinous" and find myself flooded with thoughts of a great World Soul behind it all and in it all, and something indefinable and mysterious. And I sometimes catch myself laughing in gratitude.

    Don't get me wrong - this is not a "theistic" feeling necessarily. If anything it's more pantheistic - and it is more Taoistic in its sense of an indefinable force. But it makes me think that all our religious categories are really inadequate - theistic, pantheistic, Tao. Just inadequate words used to divide an ineffable reality.

    I wonder if true atheism - not defined as disbelief in the Christian God, but rather defined as the complete absence of the sense of the numinous that characterizes certain hardcore materialists - is only really possible in an urban environment?

    It is remarkable how humanity needs to step out of the human world on a regular basis and confront the "non-human" - and perhaps temporarily lay aside for a while the disease of language - in order to stay sane and come into contact with the deepest parts of himself and crucially - something beyond what he customarily takes for himself.

    The political insanity of modern time, the nervous tensions, the hatreds and obsessions, the anxieties and depressions, may simply be the result of being utterly immersed in a man-made world and the loss of contact with the Other, due to mass urbanisation and population pressure.

    Replies: @Carlo, @BBerliner, @Mikel, @silviosilver

    Saint Anthony of Egypt, the original Desert Father, who spent many decades living ascetically in the Egyptian desert.

    • Thanks: AaronB, SafeNow, Mr. Hack
  22. @Mikhail
    @BBerliner

    Some others as well. Mike Whitney hasn't been there for awhile, as well as some woman whose name presently escaped me.

    My last Counterpunch piece was awkwardly taken down from its homepage (while still otherwise being up as a link at that site), after Mark Galeotti bitched about it on TWITter.

    Louis Proyect a regular Counterpunch contributor, has posted Pilsudskiite and svido leaning BS at that site. There's something psycho rabid about him.

    Replies: @Shortsword, @Not Raul

    My last Counterpunch piece was awkwardly taken down from its homepage (while still otherwise being up as a link at that site), after Mark Galeotti bitched about it on TWITter.

    Twitter search doesn’t show any mention of Counterpunch on Mark Galeotti’s twitter account. What article was it?

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @Shortsword

    https://twitter.com/marksleboda1/status/553628466990821378?lang=hr

    You can go to Galeotti's TWITter account and get the initials specfically mentioning that Counterpunch piece.

    That article:

    https://www.counterpunch.org/2015/01/09/deconstructing-establishment-kremlinology/

    https://www.eurasiareview.com/13012015-enigmatic-russia-detractors-analysis/

  23. Irish monks sought out desolate islands because they reckoned that was the closest way they could imitate the earlier desert hermits, like St. Anthony.

  24. @AaronB
    Politics is the art of forcing everybody else to live by your values. It is the belief that there is only "one" right way that everyone must live.

    But must it always be so? At the root of the problem is the idea that "humanity" is a single organism rather than just a collection of individuals. Humanity is a protagonist in a drama that is going somewhere. Therefore we must fight over which vision of the "common good" will steer the ship of humanity.

    For an individual human, obviously he must choose one course of action. Humanity as an individual must obviously have only one course.

    This is a great example of how abstraction and language can trap people in self defeating fantasy - language is on some level a disease, despite its obvious advantages.

    A very simple solution for most of our political differences would simply be to create different living arrangements for different people.

    You want to live with only people of the same race as you? There are towns and cities for that. You enjoy living in a community with people from lots of different races and cultures? There are towns and cities for that.

    It's funny how there are so many rational and sensible solutions to human problems, yet they never get implemented.

    It's not just that humanity gets caught up in collective myths that are just the reification if language, it's as if there is an irreducible element - a group of people - in humanity working against happiness.

    Replies: @Boomthorkell, @dfordoom

    Yes. The greatest generally being that a sizeable enough minority or plurality of people really just despise the idea of letting others live lives that they do not agree with. At this point, the only true equality of lifestyle comes with power, and that power unfortunately is still currently concentrated in a a few people and fewer countries.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    @Boomthorkell


    The greatest generally being that a sizeable enough minority or plurality of people really just despise the idea of letting others live lives that they do not agree with
     
    This is a major problem, yes. I think comes from fear and insecurity.

    Most people are not satisfied with their way of life, so to strengthen their faith in it they insist everyone live like them. People who don't live like them threaten them.

    If their way of life gave them genuine pleasure and satisfaction, there would be no threat in others not living like them. The rewards of their way of life would be self-evident - they would not other people to build their confidence they have chosen correctly.

    But in fact different things make different people happy. I think the solution would be for people to live for pleasure (broadly defined) and not according to what society tells them is "valuable" - this way, they all discover what they find intrinsically satisfying, and will not be threatened by others doing what they find intrinsically satisfying.

    Replies: @dfordoom

  25. Trump will speak Sunday. Carl Hubbell summed-up the situation this way:

    “Gehrig is great, of course. But somehow you don’t get the same feeling when he’s at bat as when DiMaggio comes to the plate.”

  26. @AaronB
    Is hardcore atheism and materialism primarily an urban phenomenon?

    The last 5 days I spent in solitude out in the desert. I am about 30 miles from a town and I have internet, so not true isolation or wilderness. It's high altitude desert so the air is crystal clear and the nights cold. I am at the base of a jagged range of mountains, with gigantic boulder fields and jagged rock columns and spires - the kind of "badlands" scenery you often get in semi-desert areas.

    There are sweeping panoramic views in every direction, and at night small twinkling lights from isolated homes appear on the desert plain. There is a profound silence over the landscape, and there has been a rising moon the past few nights.

    I find myself at odd moments overwhelmed by an almost unbearable sense of the "numinous" and find myself flooded with thoughts of a great World Soul behind it all and in it all, and something indefinable and mysterious. And I sometimes catch myself laughing in gratitude.

    Don't get me wrong - this is not a "theistic" feeling necessarily. If anything it's more pantheistic - and it is more Taoistic in its sense of an indefinable force. But it makes me think that all our religious categories are really inadequate - theistic, pantheistic, Tao. Just inadequate words used to divide an ineffable reality.

    I wonder if true atheism - not defined as disbelief in the Christian God, but rather defined as the complete absence of the sense of the numinous that characterizes certain hardcore materialists - is only really possible in an urban environment?

    It is remarkable how humanity needs to step out of the human world on a regular basis and confront the "non-human" - and perhaps temporarily lay aside for a while the disease of language - in order to stay sane and come into contact with the deepest parts of himself and crucially - something beyond what he customarily takes for himself.

    The political insanity of modern time, the nervous tensions, the hatreds and obsessions, the anxieties and depressions, may simply be the result of being utterly immersed in a man-made world and the loss of contact with the Other, due to mass urbanisation and population pressure.

    Replies: @Carlo, @BBerliner, @Mikel, @silviosilver

    I wonder if true atheism – not defined as disbelief in the Christian God, but rather defined as the complete absence of the sense of the numinous that characterizes certain hardcore materialists – is only really possible in an urban environment?

    I don’t think so. I purposely live on the countryside and spend as much time as I can in the surrounding mountains and deserts (as a matter of fact, I’m taking to the road tonight and we may cross our paths somewhere in the Southwest, who knows) but this hasn’t helped me much with my lack of religiosity.

    On the other hand, there is a deep and somewhat mysterious reason why I chose to live close to nature. I am not sure that I could express it properly with words. Being in contact with nature allows me to feel its beauty and its innate perfection, which are totally different from man-made works of art and engineering, and amazingly came about without anybody building it. Natural landscapes just formed themselves out of chaos and spontaneous natural forces but somehow we humans were born with the ability to appreciate its beauty and serenity. I’m not sure that any other animal has this ability.

    Being out in the middle of nature is also for me a humbling experience when I feel how fragile I am compared to its vastness and the power of its forces. But perhaps the most important feeling that I try to recreate is the happiness that I felt as a teenager when I saw virgin mountain landscapes for the first time. I guess being in nature is for me a way to try to find happiness in life and at least to some extent it works.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    @Mikel

    Great comment, thanks.

    I would argue that this mysterious feeling you cannot express in words is precisely that experience of the numinous :) Words can only hint at it. Mystery, wonder, magic - these are terms that hint at something, but we know not what.

    Your attempt to describe it is beautiful and gets at many aspects of it.

    And no, I am not arguing for traditional religion - just this experience of wonder.


    But perhaps the most important feeling that I try to recreate is the happiness that I felt as a teenager when I saw virgin mountain landscapes for the first time. I guess being in nature is for me a way to try to find happiness in life and at least to some extent it works.
     
    Nature really Paradise Lost, isn't it.

    We evolved to be hunter gatherers, and in that kind of environment we find out greatest satisfaction.

    I was car camping on a ledge overlooking this vast savanna like field dotted with scrub and some dwarf oak trees, with massive boulders strewn across the field, and the other side the mountains started.

    In the cool early morning I would just set off exploring across this savannah, with no trail and no plan just to reach the mountains, and just wander. It was a completely different experience than hiking on a trail - "straight line, clear direction" - and I think, more satisfying. I was amazed how intuitively I was able to find my about and back to my car.

    It was perfect hunter/gatherer terrain.

    Btw, if you're heading Southwest, might I recommend the Dragoon Mountains of southern Arizona? That is where I have been the past week.

    Sublime scenery and a place of great spiritual power. It was in these mountains that the Apache Indians lived and fought, defeating the Spanish for centuries and staving off the encroachments of modern civilized life until final defeat.

    So it's one of the last stands of hunter-gatherers and life in the paradise that is nature against the dreariness of modern machine civilization :)

    The spirit of Cochise and his band of happy warriors smiles benignly on all true-hearted lovers of nature who come into his realm :)

    I drove down a BLM dirt road and accidentally found one of the most sublime camp spots I've ever been - if you end up going, I can give you the GPS coordinates its not on any map.

    Enjoy wherever you end up going.

    Replies: @Mikel, @BBerliner

    , @silviosilver
    @Mikel

    Nature's okay, but really, four hours is the most that anybody should want to spend in nature, and even that is seriously pushing it. Personally, I start getting bored after fifteen minutes. Once you've seen two or three beaches or mountains or lakes, you've pretty much seen them all. I know each one is unique and all that, but that's something you realize straight away and it doesn't prevent the boredom from setting in.

    What you do in nature anyway, just look at it? How many people can really do that all day though. That's why we have picnics or go for swims or even just walks, because nature, of itself, is fundamentally boring and we need something to distract us when we're in it. Personally, I think an underrated reason cities have attracted people for thousands of years is because we're anxious to get away from nature and its blizzards, its heat waves, its stings, its snakebites, its swamps and its sands.

    For me, the really humbling experience is to take in the splendor of the city from an elevated vantage point and reflect on the myriad benefits that have accrued to us from transcending nature's meager bounty. Always remember: I could go three years without nature and not miss it, but could you really go three days without electricity?

    Replies: @Mikel, @blatnoi, @reiner Tor, @Dmitry

    , @dfordoom
    @Mikel


    I guess being in nature is for me a way to try to find happiness in life and at least to some extent it works.
     
    Being in nature makes me anxious and depressed. But a lot of people seem to enjoy it, so good luck to them.

    On the whole I find more beauty in artificial things than in natural things. To me a gothic cathedral is more beautiful than a mountain. There are even some modernist buildings (such as Saarinen's TWA terminal in New York) they I find more beautiful than forests.

    Whatever floats your boat.

    Replies: @AP, @reiner Tor

  27. @Shortsword
    @Mikhail


    My last Counterpunch piece was awkwardly taken down from its homepage (while still otherwise being up as a link at that site), after Mark Galeotti bitched about it on TWITter.
     
    Twitter search doesn't show any mention of Counterpunch on Mark Galeotti's twitter account. What article was it?

    Replies: @Mikhail

    You can go to Galeotti’s TWITter account and get the initials specfically mentioning that Counterpunch piece.

    That article:

    https://www.counterpunch.org/2015/01/09/deconstructing-establishment-kremlinology/

    https://www.eurasiareview.com/13012015-enigmatic-russia-detractors-analysis/

    • Thanks: Shortsword
  28. @songbird
    Was World War T designed as an attempt (successful) to weaponize the narcissism of trannies? And just the follow up to weaponizing the narcissism of gays? Which, in turn, was just the follow up to weaponizing the narcissism of blacks?

    Replies: @Kent Nationalist

    There’s a massive push also for lesbianism at the moment. I used to look at the schedules or reviews of new films coming out at arthouse cinemas and the non-black ones often had a lesbian relationship (usually with two young, cute actresses) even if they were not otherwise specifically homosexual films (unlike gay films, which had their own separate genre).

    I don’t really understand the reason before this. Obviously lesbianism does not actually exist, so unlike with gay films there is no sort of market for these. The only thing I can think of is that it is a way for film directors and producers to fulfil diversity quotas (which already exist for many film awards) without showing male homosexuality, which is more viscerally disgusting.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Kent Nationalist


    Obviously lesbianism does not actually exist, so unlike with gay films there is no sort of market for these.
     
    Maybe, soft porn for straight men, on streaming services? I'm honestly more surprised by the other side of it - but maybe, I am just naive.

    I too have puzzled over the economics of gay films. Two competing theories: 1.) somehow it leads to sex - either in exchange for giving people starring roles, or by having some party at finish, or from social signaling, or 2.) They have disproportionate influence within the industry (similar to politics), and people court this influence by making films that cater to them.

    I've often been grossed out by unexpected gay references in mainstream films - sometimes going back into the '70s - and occasionally in movies that were ostensibly made for kids, or at least young teenagers. I can only think that gays were behind it on some level.
    , @dfordoom
    @Kent Nationalist


    I used to look at the schedules or reviews of new films coming out at arthouse cinemas and the non-black ones often had a lesbian relationship (usually with two young, cute actresses) even if they were not otherwise specifically homosexual films (unlike gay films, which had their own separate genre).

    I don’t really understand the reason before this. Obviously lesbianism does not actually exist, so unlike with gay films there is no sort of market for these.
     
    Maybe the market is heterosexual men. If the movies in question involve lots of sex and nudity then the market is definitely heterosexual men. If the movies in question involve lots of angsting over relationships then the market is lesbians.

    There was a whole genre of lesbian vampire movies back in the 70s, with lots of sex and nudity. They were aimed at heterosexual men.

    Although I have come across a handful of heterosexual women who like 70s erotic lesbian vampire movies.

    Maybe some women find depictions of lesbian sex less disturbing than depictions of heterosexual sex.

    I assume these modern Hollywood movies are all about the emotional angst and there's nothing lesbians love more than emotional angst.
    , @reiner Tor
    @Kent Nationalist

    Lesbianism obviously does exist. It’s not so exclusive as male homosexuality, but there are women out there who do have sex with other women.

    Replies: @dfordoom, @Kent Nationalist

  29. @Kent Nationalist
    @songbird

    There's a massive push also for lesbianism at the moment. I used to look at the schedules or reviews of new films coming out at arthouse cinemas and the non-black ones often had a lesbian relationship (usually with two young, cute actresses) even if they were not otherwise specifically homosexual films (unlike gay films, which had their own separate genre).

    I don't really understand the reason before this. Obviously lesbianism does not actually exist, so unlike with gay films there is no sort of market for these. The only thing I can think of is that it is a way for film directors and producers to fulfil diversity quotas (which already exist for many film awards) without showing male homosexuality, which is more viscerally disgusting.

    Replies: @songbird, @dfordoom, @reiner Tor

    Obviously lesbianism does not actually exist, so unlike with gay films there is no sort of market for these.

    Maybe, soft porn for straight men, on streaming services? I’m honestly more surprised by the other side of it – but maybe, I am just naive.

    I too have puzzled over the economics of gay films. Two competing theories: 1.) somehow it leads to sex – either in exchange for giving people starring roles, or by having some party at finish, or from social signaling, or 2.) They have disproportionate influence within the industry (similar to politics), and people court this influence by making films that cater to them.

    I’ve often been grossed out by unexpected gay references in mainstream films – sometimes going back into the ’70s – and occasionally in movies that were ostensibly made for kids, or at least young teenagers. I can only think that gays were behind it on some level.

  30. @Europe Europa
    I find it interesting how the two women who made up the 90s/early 00s Russian pop group "Tatu" have now reinvented themselves as conservative, anti-LGBT Orthodox Christian women when the whole theme of "Tatu" was overtly pro-LGBT, degenerate, Atheistic, etc.

    It just goes to show how much mainstream Russian culture has shifted in a short space of time and how people just mold themselves and their values to conform with the current "zeitgeist".

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Dmitry

    Those girls are not original artists, but two actresses, who were hired to perform a specific character (anime pseudojapanese schoolgirl lesbians for clickbait).

    When actors stop to receive a salary, as in Tatu’s case for a number of years, then they stop acting in the character they were hired to be. I.e. they speak as themselves, instead of fake Japanese anime kissing lesbian schoolgirls.

    This is partly what allowed Tatu to be a relative peak of postsoviet pop – because it’s such a fake manufactured group, it had talented professional musicians writing their music and songs, and their songs were therefore quite good.

    Pop music in Russia in the 2000s while highly cynical manufactured clickbait, was also more decentralized from the politicians, and postsoviet pop had original locally-specific melodies and instrumentation, which was like the accumulated capital that was developed by talented producers of postsoviet pop in the 1990s.

    2000-2010 could be seen almost as a “Age of Tatu”, when Russian mainstream pop videos still has an original national sound, and Tatu were futuristically predicting the pseudojapanese aesthetics + nonbinary looking women, that would become later fashionable in the West in the decade 2010s.

    2010-2020 I would say the trend of pop videos is a postmodernist “Age of Timati”, when mainstream rappers like Timati or Geegun, are Mountain Jews, or Bulgarians (e.g. Doni) or Ossetians, that pretend to be African Americans, and closely connected with politicians , and more self-serious stars were coming Belarus (e.g. Max Korzh)

    If in beginning of the decade 2010s, there was an attempt to promote heterosexual versions of Tatu (e.g. Nyusha), by the end of the decade the direction of pop videos in Russia was postmodernist comedy clickbait to the computerized youth.

    2020-2030 – the pop videos is going to turn to pure clickbait comedy for the increasingly computerized generation – what kind of omen is this rapper Morgenstern for the decade.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Dmitry

    BTW, I have been wondering where Another_German_Reader and Another_Polish_Perspective fit into your eschatology of Unz. We are in the Kali Yuga, I believe? When Tatu puts on Christian airs?

    Replies: @Dmitry

    , @Insomniac Resurrected
    @Dmitry

    A girl I banged this summer, who was some 15 years my junior listened to these Russian rappers. It ain't a bad cultural export. Slavic THOTs love it.

  31. @Dmitry
    @Europe Europa

    Those girls are not original artists, but two actresses, who were hired to perform a specific character (anime pseudojapanese schoolgirl lesbians for clickbait).

    When actors stop to receive a salary, as in Tatu's case for a number of years, then they stop acting in the character they were hired to be. I.e. they speak as themselves, instead of fake Japanese anime kissing lesbian schoolgirls.

    This is partly what allowed Tatu to be a relative peak of postsoviet pop - because it's such a fake manufactured group, it had talented professional musicians writing their music and songs, and their songs were therefore quite good.

    Pop music in Russia in the 2000s while highly cynical manufactured clickbait, was also more decentralized from the politicians, and postsoviet pop had original locally-specific melodies and instrumentation, which was like the accumulated capital that was developed by talented producers of postsoviet pop in the 1990s.


    -

    2000-2010 could be seen almost as a "Age of Tatu", when Russian mainstream pop videos still has an original national sound, and Tatu were futuristically predicting the pseudojapanese aesthetics + nonbinary looking women, that would become later fashionable in the West in the decade 2010s.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4FYO8tGToU

    2010-2020 I would say the trend of pop videos is a postmodernist "Age of Timati", when mainstream rappers like Timati or Geegun, are Mountain Jews, or Bulgarians (e.g. Doni) or Ossetians, that pretend to be African Americans, and closely connected with politicians , and more self-serious stars were coming Belarus (e.g. Max Korzh)

    If in beginning of the decade 2010s, there was an attempt to promote heterosexual versions of Tatu (e.g. Nyusha), by the end of the decade the direction of pop videos in Russia was postmodernist comedy clickbait to the computerized youth.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcXNXnUr16Q

    2020-2030 - the pop videos is going to turn to pure clickbait comedy for the increasingly computerized generation - what kind of omen is this rapper Morgenstern for the decade.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdk4hVPN_F0

    Replies: @songbird, @Insomniac Resurrected

    BTW, I have been wondering where Another_German_Reader and Another_Polish_Perspective fit into your eschatology of Unz. We are in the Kali Yuga, I believe? When Tatu puts on Christian airs?

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @songbird

    I don't think the LGBT topic is very important, as it was just a marketing gimmick (the cultural difference between Russia and the West on LGBT, is exaggerated a lot - it's more like a difference of etiquette about the topic)

    The "Age of Tatu" (2000-2010) will be seen as a relatively peak of Russian pop music, in comparison to the "Age of Timati" (2010-2020), when postsoviet pop music become increasingly globalized and generic sounding.

    Although it was already in 2005, when Tatu is last produced with half-postsoviet pop sounds.

    For example, the song "Disabled People" (2005) the producer is already at half-authentic Russian/postsoviet pop sounds.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9526tRl4w2E


    By 2009, Tatu is sounding much more like London pop of the 2000s.

    E.g. by 2009 Tatu has become musically globalized, and this is the trend for Russian pop to lose any idiosyncratic sounds into the 2010s.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Qjx8IXkgjE


    -


    It's an interesting question what can make a different nationality, create a specific pop sound, that is distinctive to its culture, and what causes this to end.

    In Japanese pop, the explanation seems to be quite simple, as its distinctive sound is mainly on the harmonic level, as a result of the higher training of its musicians: that is we hear in Japanese pop music a lot of sophisticate voicings in the chords, and use of higher intervals including the melody.

    Japanese pop is being very stubborn to be one of the last nationalities to hold onto unusual different sounds into the 2020s.

    Replies: @216, @songbird

  32. @Mikel
    @AaronB


    I wonder if true atheism – not defined as disbelief in the Christian God, but rather defined as the complete absence of the sense of the numinous that characterizes certain hardcore materialists – is only really possible in an urban environment?
     
    I don't think so. I purposely live on the countryside and spend as much time as I can in the surrounding mountains and deserts (as a matter of fact, I'm taking to the road tonight and we may cross our paths somewhere in the Southwest, who knows) but this hasn't helped me much with my lack of religiosity.

    On the other hand, there is a deep and somewhat mysterious reason why I chose to live close to nature. I am not sure that I could express it properly with words. Being in contact with nature allows me to feel its beauty and its innate perfection, which are totally different from man-made works of art and engineering, and amazingly came about without anybody building it. Natural landscapes just formed themselves out of chaos and spontaneous natural forces but somehow we humans were born with the ability to appreciate its beauty and serenity. I'm not sure that any other animal has this ability.

    Being out in the middle of nature is also for me a humbling experience when I feel how fragile I am compared to its vastness and the power of its forces. But perhaps the most important feeling that I try to recreate is the happiness that I felt as a teenager when I saw virgin mountain landscapes for the first time. I guess being in nature is for me a way to try to find happiness in life and at least to some extent it works.

    Replies: @AaronB, @silviosilver, @dfordoom

    Great comment, thanks.

    I would argue that this mysterious feeling you cannot express in words is precisely that experience of the numinous 🙂 Words can only hint at it. Mystery, wonder, magic – these are terms that hint at something, but we know not what.

    Your attempt to describe it is beautiful and gets at many aspects of it.

    And no, I am not arguing for traditional religion – just this experience of wonder.

    But perhaps the most important feeling that I try to recreate is the happiness that I felt as a teenager when I saw virgin mountain landscapes for the first time. I guess being in nature is for me a way to try to find happiness in life and at least to some extent it works.

    Nature really Paradise Lost, isn’t it.

    We evolved to be hunter gatherers, and in that kind of environment we find out greatest satisfaction.

    I was car camping on a ledge overlooking this vast savanna like field dotted with scrub and some dwarf oak trees, with massive boulders strewn across the field, and the other side the mountains started.

    In the cool early morning I would just set off exploring across this savannah, with no trail and no plan just to reach the mountains, and just wander. It was a completely different experience than hiking on a trail – “straight line, clear direction” – and I think, more satisfying. I was amazed how intuitively I was able to find my about and back to my car.

    It was perfect hunter/gatherer terrain.

    Btw, if you’re heading Southwest, might I recommend the Dragoon Mountains of southern Arizona? That is where I have been the past week.

    Sublime scenery and a place of great spiritual power. It was in these mountains that the Apache Indians lived and fought, defeating the Spanish for centuries and staving off the encroachments of modern civilized life until final defeat.

    So it’s one of the last stands of hunter-gatherers and life in the paradise that is nature against the dreariness of modern machine civilization 🙂

    The spirit of Cochise and his band of happy warriors smiles benignly on all true-hearted lovers of nature who come into his realm 🙂

    I drove down a BLM dirt road and accidentally found one of the most sublime camp spots I’ve ever been – if you end up going, I can give you the GPS coordinates its not on any map.

    Enjoy wherever you end up going.

    • Replies: @Mikel
    @AaronB


    I drove down a BLM dirt road and accidentally found one of the most sublime camp spots I’ve ever been – if you end up going, I can give you the GPS coordinates its not on any map.
     
    Thanks. It sounds like a magnificent place but that's too far away for the short weekend trip that I have planned. I'll be somewhere around the Four Corners area.

    Desert areas absolutely lend themselves to discovery and making your own route as you walk. Watch the rattlesnakes.

    Replies: @AaronB

    , @BBerliner
    @AaronB



    ...“We need wilderness whether or not we ever set foot in it. We need a refuge even though we may never need to go there. I may never in my life get to Alaska, for example, but I am grateful that it’s there. We need the possibility of escape as surely as we need hope; without it the life of the cities would drive all men into crime or drugs or psychoanalysis.”

    ...“The night flows back, the mighty stillness embraces and includes me; I can see the stars again and the world of starlight. I am twenty miles or more from the nearest fellow human, but instead of loneliness I feel loveliness. Loveliness and a quiet exultation.”

    ...“In the mixture of starlight and cloud-reflected sunlight in which the desert world is now illuminated, each single object stands forth in preternatural though transient brilliance, a final assertion of existence before the coming of night: each rock and shrub and tree, each flower, each stem of grass, diverse and separate, vividly isolate, yet joined each to every other in a unity which generously includes me and my solitude as well.”

    Edward Abbey, Desert Solitaire

    https://149363935.v2.pressablecdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/resource_desert-solitaire.jpg

     

    Here’s a very beautiful song: Midnight in the Desert by Crystal Gayle



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cmUpgvmFk4

     

    Replies: @AaronB

  33. @Carlo
    @AaronB

    You are into something here, and even though I am myself religious (traditional Catholic) I agree almost completely with your comment. The Indo-European word for God (*dyew) came from the bright clear sky. In larger urban areas the sense of infinite depth and transcendence of the sky, the diurnal and especially the nocturnal (due to luminic pollution) is lost. My own personal experience is that in the city I am always locked up with a roof over my head. As I myself am a traditional Catholic, I often go to a monastery in a rural area and an important part of my religious experience for me there is to contemplate the clear, unobstructed night sky.

    Replies: @AaronB, @Agathoklis

    Yes, I am not religious in the traditional sense, and I have religious friends who object to my forays into nature as frivolous and having nothing to do with religion – I try and explain to them I am closer to something that might be described as divine in nature than I can ever be in the cities.

    I am glad that your brand of traditional religion has retained this connection to nature. I love the old tradition of Catholic monasteries in lonely areas of great beauty.

    • Replies: @Carlo
    @AaronB

    I disagree with your religious friends. Going to nature and contemplating it is very important to help achieve contemplation of God, and many serious Christian saints and mystics also taught about this. And this has hardly anything to do with the "mother nature" cult that even the current Pope adheres to, nor other hippie/new age movements.
    The parish priest of the SSPX temple I go to is an alpinist. Every summer he rises the Aconguagua, the highest summit in the Americas. He also says it helps his spiritual life.

  34. ANNIVERSARY

    • Agree: Shortsword
    • Replies: @Shortsword
    @Insomniac Resurrected

    https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/02/26/statement-by-president-biden-on-the-anniversary-of-russias-illegal-invasion-of-ukraine/



    Seven years ago today, Russia violated international law, the norms by which modern countries engage one another, and the sovereignty and territorial integrity of its neighbor Ukraine when it invaded Crimea.

    The United States continues to stand with Ukraine and its allies and partners today, as it has from the beginning of this conflict. On this somber anniversary, we reaffirm a simple truth: Crimea is Ukraine.

     

    Replies: @Insomniac Resurrected

  35. @Mikhail
    @BBerliner

    Some others as well. Mike Whitney hasn't been there for awhile, as well as some woman whose name presently escaped me.

    My last Counterpunch piece was awkwardly taken down from its homepage (while still otherwise being up as a link at that site), after Mark Galeotti bitched about it on TWITter.

    Louis Proyect a regular Counterpunch contributor, has posted Pilsudskiite and svido leaning BS at that site. There's something psycho rabid about him.

    Replies: @Shortsword, @Not Raul

    Mike Whitney’s last Counterpunch article was about three years ago. Was there some sort of incident?

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @Not Raul

    As I noted further up this thread: after Alexander Cockburn's passing, Counterpunch has gone in the direction of being more establishment like on Russia related matters, along the lines of the Amy Goodman hosted Democracy Now.

  36. @Dmitry
    @Europe Europa

    Those girls are not original artists, but two actresses, who were hired to perform a specific character (anime pseudojapanese schoolgirl lesbians for clickbait).

    When actors stop to receive a salary, as in Tatu's case for a number of years, then they stop acting in the character they were hired to be. I.e. they speak as themselves, instead of fake Japanese anime kissing lesbian schoolgirls.

    This is partly what allowed Tatu to be a relative peak of postsoviet pop - because it's such a fake manufactured group, it had talented professional musicians writing their music and songs, and their songs were therefore quite good.

    Pop music in Russia in the 2000s while highly cynical manufactured clickbait, was also more decentralized from the politicians, and postsoviet pop had original locally-specific melodies and instrumentation, which was like the accumulated capital that was developed by talented producers of postsoviet pop in the 1990s.


    -

    2000-2010 could be seen almost as a "Age of Tatu", when Russian mainstream pop videos still has an original national sound, and Tatu were futuristically predicting the pseudojapanese aesthetics + nonbinary looking women, that would become later fashionable in the West in the decade 2010s.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L4FYO8tGToU

    2010-2020 I would say the trend of pop videos is a postmodernist "Age of Timati", when mainstream rappers like Timati or Geegun, are Mountain Jews, or Bulgarians (e.g. Doni) or Ossetians, that pretend to be African Americans, and closely connected with politicians , and more self-serious stars were coming Belarus (e.g. Max Korzh)

    If in beginning of the decade 2010s, there was an attempt to promote heterosexual versions of Tatu (e.g. Nyusha), by the end of the decade the direction of pop videos in Russia was postmodernist comedy clickbait to the computerized youth.


    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NcXNXnUr16Q

    2020-2030 - the pop videos is going to turn to pure clickbait comedy for the increasingly computerized generation - what kind of omen is this rapper Morgenstern for the decade.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdk4hVPN_F0

    Replies: @songbird, @Insomniac Resurrected

    A girl I banged this summer, who was some 15 years my junior listened to these Russian rappers. It ain’t a bad cultural export. Slavic THOTs love it.

  37. @Boomthorkell
    @AaronB

    Yes. The greatest generally being that a sizeable enough minority or plurality of people really just despise the idea of letting others live lives that they do not agree with. At this point, the only true equality of lifestyle comes with power, and that power unfortunately is still currently concentrated in a a few people and fewer countries.

    Replies: @AaronB

    The greatest generally being that a sizeable enough minority or plurality of people really just despise the idea of letting others live lives that they do not agree with

    This is a major problem, yes. I think comes from fear and insecurity.

    Most people are not satisfied with their way of life, so to strengthen their faith in it they insist everyone live like them. People who don’t live like them threaten them.

    If their way of life gave them genuine pleasure and satisfaction, there would be no threat in others not living like them. The rewards of their way of life would be self-evident – they would not other people to build their confidence they have chosen correctly.

    But in fact different things make different people happy. I think the solution would be for people to live for pleasure (broadly defined) and not according to what society tells them is “valuable” – this way, they all discover what they find intrinsically satisfying, and will not be threatened by others doing what they find intrinsically satisfying.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @AaronB


    Most people are not satisfied with their way of life, so to strengthen their faith in it they insist everyone live like them. People who don’t live like them threaten them.
     
    Yeah. It hasn't always been the case, certainly not in every society, but it has been a characteristic feature of western civilisation since the 19th century.

    It's also a characteristic feature of Puritanism and Calvinism. Such people know that they're the Elect and they know they're good and righteous but they're miserable and they're enraged that all those wicked sinners are enjoying themselves. They must be stopped.

    Puritans love misery, but mostly they love inflicting misery on others.

    Since SJWs and Wokeists are a mutated variety of Puritan they share this mindset. They know they're super-virtuous but they're not really happy and they're angry at the thought that the non-virtuous might be happy.

    People think they're doing what they want to do but they're still unhappy and dissatisfied, so they're threatened by anybody who has made different choices. And they get angry if those people who have made different choices seem happy.

    Replies: @Not Only Wrathful, @Coconuts, @sher singh

  38. @AaronB
    @Mikel

    Great comment, thanks.

    I would argue that this mysterious feeling you cannot express in words is precisely that experience of the numinous :) Words can only hint at it. Mystery, wonder, magic - these are terms that hint at something, but we know not what.

    Your attempt to describe it is beautiful and gets at many aspects of it.

    And no, I am not arguing for traditional religion - just this experience of wonder.


    But perhaps the most important feeling that I try to recreate is the happiness that I felt as a teenager when I saw virgin mountain landscapes for the first time. I guess being in nature is for me a way to try to find happiness in life and at least to some extent it works.
     
    Nature really Paradise Lost, isn't it.

    We evolved to be hunter gatherers, and in that kind of environment we find out greatest satisfaction.

    I was car camping on a ledge overlooking this vast savanna like field dotted with scrub and some dwarf oak trees, with massive boulders strewn across the field, and the other side the mountains started.

    In the cool early morning I would just set off exploring across this savannah, with no trail and no plan just to reach the mountains, and just wander. It was a completely different experience than hiking on a trail - "straight line, clear direction" - and I think, more satisfying. I was amazed how intuitively I was able to find my about and back to my car.

    It was perfect hunter/gatherer terrain.

    Btw, if you're heading Southwest, might I recommend the Dragoon Mountains of southern Arizona? That is where I have been the past week.

    Sublime scenery and a place of great spiritual power. It was in these mountains that the Apache Indians lived and fought, defeating the Spanish for centuries and staving off the encroachments of modern civilized life until final defeat.

    So it's one of the last stands of hunter-gatherers and life in the paradise that is nature against the dreariness of modern machine civilization :)

    The spirit of Cochise and his band of happy warriors smiles benignly on all true-hearted lovers of nature who come into his realm :)

    I drove down a BLM dirt road and accidentally found one of the most sublime camp spots I've ever been - if you end up going, I can give you the GPS coordinates its not on any map.

    Enjoy wherever you end up going.

    Replies: @Mikel, @BBerliner

    I drove down a BLM dirt road and accidentally found one of the most sublime camp spots I’ve ever been – if you end up going, I can give you the GPS coordinates its not on any map.

    Thanks. It sounds like a magnificent place but that’s too far away for the short weekend trip that I have planned. I’ll be somewhere around the Four Corners area.

    Desert areas absolutely lend themselves to discovery and making your own route as you walk. Watch the rattlesnakes.

    • Thanks: AaronB
    • Replies: @AaronB
    @Mikel

    Enjoy your weekend jaunt.

    I left this morning for what is supposed to be some very rugged and little visited desert areas on the Mexican border. We shall see.

    Replies: @Hacienda

  39. Interesting.

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @Shortsword


    Fertility of non-Western migrants went into steep decline when the Anders Fogh Rasmussen government introduced changes to family reunification migration, e.g. the 24-year-rule, meaning that amrriage migration is only allowed when both partners at least 24.
     
    https://mobile.twitter.com/BirthGauge/status/1313507391418368000

    Can this really be the only thing that changed? Seems quite amazing if it is.

    Fortunately (for the country) and unfortunately (for the sake of these statistics), MENAPT (Greater Middle East + Somalia) are only 55% of Denmark's non-Western immigrants, so the birth rate of the more undesirable population is higher to some degree.

    Hopefully when the government starts publishing data based on the new classifications we will know more.
  40. @Mikel
    @AaronB


    I drove down a BLM dirt road and accidentally found one of the most sublime camp spots I’ve ever been – if you end up going, I can give you the GPS coordinates its not on any map.
     
    Thanks. It sounds like a magnificent place but that's too far away for the short weekend trip that I have planned. I'll be somewhere around the Four Corners area.

    Desert areas absolutely lend themselves to discovery and making your own route as you walk. Watch the rattlesnakes.

    Replies: @AaronB

    Enjoy your weekend jaunt.

    I left this morning for what is supposed to be some very rugged and little visited desert areas on the Mexican border. We shall see.

    • Replies: @Hacienda
    @AaronB

    I've been curious about that area myself. I drove through Anza Borreago desert last weekend.

    Very cool with its dramatic flatness and view of the Salton Sea coming down from the Peninsular range.

    I like driving around California's natural areas because you will always see at least a few things that makes you do a double take.

    In this case it was seeing random solitary RVs parked in the desert, based near the mountains ranges. Another was the highway into the Salton Sea with a landscape which was a mini version of what you see at the Petrified National Forest- layered orange canyons with a flat top.

    I kind of like nature to have some movement to it. Either the thing moves or I'm moving.
    So if the scale is vast, like Death Valley. I like driving through it. If it's on a medium scale, I like walking through it. Red Rocks Canyon, Mammoth Lakes are great places to hike. Really, any place with water works.

    Red Rocks Canyon Trails is highly recommended. Very few people there. A profound 2 hour hike or longer if you want. Dramatic shifts in surfaces and sense of kinetics of mountains. Mostly sagebrush and cactus. Red columns mountains faces. Really beautiful. Another thing is, you can have the feeling of having the entire park to yourself.

  41. @AaronB
    @Carlo

    Yes, I am not religious in the traditional sense, and I have religious friends who object to my forays into nature as frivolous and having nothing to do with religion - I try and explain to them I am closer to something that might be described as divine in nature than I can ever be in the cities.

    I am glad that your brand of traditional religion has retained this connection to nature. I love the old tradition of Catholic monasteries in lonely areas of great beauty.

    Replies: @Carlo

    I disagree with your religious friends. Going to nature and contemplating it is very important to help achieve contemplation of God, and many serious Christian saints and mystics also taught about this. And this has hardly anything to do with the “mother nature” cult that even the current Pope adheres to, nor other hippie/new age movements.
    The parish priest of the SSPX temple I go to is an alpinist. Every summer he rises the Aconguagua, the highest summit in the Americas. He also says it helps his spiritual life.

    • Agree: AaronB
  42. @Insomniac Resurrected
    ANNIVERSARY
    https://youtu.be/BOSisnarbYE

    Replies: @Shortsword

    https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/02/26/statement-by-president-biden-on-the-anniversary-of-russias-illegal-invasion-of-ukraine/

    Seven years ago today, Russia violated international law, the norms by which modern countries engage one another, and the sovereignty and territorial integrity of its neighbor Ukraine when it invaded Crimea.

    The United States continues to stand with Ukraine and its allies and partners today, as it has from the beginning of this conflict. On this somber anniversary, we reaffirm a simple truth: Crimea is Ukraine.

    • Replies: @Insomniac Resurrected
    @Shortsword

    America should bugger off, they should be expelled from Europe.

  43. @AaronB
    Is hardcore atheism and materialism primarily an urban phenomenon?

    The last 5 days I spent in solitude out in the desert. I am about 30 miles from a town and I have internet, so not true isolation or wilderness. It's high altitude desert so the air is crystal clear and the nights cold. I am at the base of a jagged range of mountains, with gigantic boulder fields and jagged rock columns and spires - the kind of "badlands" scenery you often get in semi-desert areas.

    There are sweeping panoramic views in every direction, and at night small twinkling lights from isolated homes appear on the desert plain. There is a profound silence over the landscape, and there has been a rising moon the past few nights.

    I find myself at odd moments overwhelmed by an almost unbearable sense of the "numinous" and find myself flooded with thoughts of a great World Soul behind it all and in it all, and something indefinable and mysterious. And I sometimes catch myself laughing in gratitude.

    Don't get me wrong - this is not a "theistic" feeling necessarily. If anything it's more pantheistic - and it is more Taoistic in its sense of an indefinable force. But it makes me think that all our religious categories are really inadequate - theistic, pantheistic, Tao. Just inadequate words used to divide an ineffable reality.

    I wonder if true atheism - not defined as disbelief in the Christian God, but rather defined as the complete absence of the sense of the numinous that characterizes certain hardcore materialists - is only really possible in an urban environment?

    It is remarkable how humanity needs to step out of the human world on a regular basis and confront the "non-human" - and perhaps temporarily lay aside for a while the disease of language - in order to stay sane and come into contact with the deepest parts of himself and crucially - something beyond what he customarily takes for himself.

    The political insanity of modern time, the nervous tensions, the hatreds and obsessions, the anxieties and depressions, may simply be the result of being utterly immersed in a man-made world and the loss of contact with the Other, due to mass urbanisation and population pressure.

    Replies: @Carlo, @BBerliner, @Mikel, @silviosilver

    Aaron, I think I speak for everyone hear when I say we’re all just touched that in these moments of peak spiritual elevation – aka shroom ingestion – it’s us you think to share your insights with.

    And to be honest, although I seldom agree with much of what you say, it’s sometimes just kinda fun to read along with you.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    @silviosilver

    Lol.

    Well....the light needs to shine where it's darkest. Jesus hung out with prostitutes and outcasts, I hang out with the good people at Unz :)

    Enjoy the read, my friend.

    , @reiner Tor
    @silviosilver


    it’s sometimes just kinda fun to read along with you.
     
    It improved my quality of life when I started scrolling over those comments. But, to each his own.
  44. @silviosilver
    @AaronB

    Aaron, I think I speak for everyone hear when I say we're all just touched that in these moments of peak spiritual elevation - aka shroom ingestion - it's us you think to share your insights with.

    And to be honest, although I seldom agree with much of what you say, it's sometimes just kinda fun to read along with you.

    Replies: @AaronB, @reiner Tor

    Lol.

    Well….the light needs to shine where it’s darkest. Jesus hung out with prostitutes and outcasts, I hang out with the good people at Unz 🙂

    Enjoy the read, my friend.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
  45. @Mikel
    @AaronB


    I wonder if true atheism – not defined as disbelief in the Christian God, but rather defined as the complete absence of the sense of the numinous that characterizes certain hardcore materialists – is only really possible in an urban environment?
     
    I don't think so. I purposely live on the countryside and spend as much time as I can in the surrounding mountains and deserts (as a matter of fact, I'm taking to the road tonight and we may cross our paths somewhere in the Southwest, who knows) but this hasn't helped me much with my lack of religiosity.

    On the other hand, there is a deep and somewhat mysterious reason why I chose to live close to nature. I am not sure that I could express it properly with words. Being in contact with nature allows me to feel its beauty and its innate perfection, which are totally different from man-made works of art and engineering, and amazingly came about without anybody building it. Natural landscapes just formed themselves out of chaos and spontaneous natural forces but somehow we humans were born with the ability to appreciate its beauty and serenity. I'm not sure that any other animal has this ability.

    Being out in the middle of nature is also for me a humbling experience when I feel how fragile I am compared to its vastness and the power of its forces. But perhaps the most important feeling that I try to recreate is the happiness that I felt as a teenager when I saw virgin mountain landscapes for the first time. I guess being in nature is for me a way to try to find happiness in life and at least to some extent it works.

    Replies: @AaronB, @silviosilver, @dfordoom

    Nature’s okay, but really, four hours is the most that anybody should want to spend in nature, and even that is seriously pushing it. Personally, I start getting bored after fifteen minutes. Once you’ve seen two or three beaches or mountains or lakes, you’ve pretty much seen them all. I know each one is unique and all that, but that’s something you realize straight away and it doesn’t prevent the boredom from setting in.

    What you do in nature anyway, just look at it? How many people can really do that all day though. That’s why we have picnics or go for swims or even just walks, because nature, of itself, is fundamentally boring and we need something to distract us when we’re in it. Personally, I think an underrated reason cities have attracted people for thousands of years is because we’re anxious to get away from nature and its blizzards, its heat waves, its stings, its snakebites, its swamps and its sands.

    For me, the really humbling experience is to take in the splendor of the city from an elevated vantage point and reflect on the myriad benefits that have accrued to us from transcending nature’s meager bounty. Always remember: I could go three years without nature and not miss it, but could you really go three days without electricity?

    • Agree: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @Mikel
    @silviosilver


    Once you’ve seen two or three beaches or mountains or lakes, you’ve pretty much seen them all.
     
    That's exactly how I feel about cities.

    Once you've been to several of them, what can you possibly expect to find different in another one? More buildings, streets, statues, churches, museums,...? Fine if that's of interest to you but I'd gladly trade an early and comfortable retirement tomorrow in exchange for not visiting another city in my life. The only ones I would miss are Las Vegas and Donosti/San Sebastian, for different reasons, but it would be perfectly bearable.

    To make matters worse, I was born in Europe and visited early on most of its major cities. I have spent enough hours visiting old churches, cathedrals, museums and historical monuments to last me the rest of my life.

    With that said, I am not interested in preaching my way of life to anyone. I am OK if the vast majority of people feel like you do and I know plenty of them who do (although one of them couldn't help feeling genuinely amazed when I took her to see the Delicate Arch near Moab, UT).

    Besides, not everything in my life is nature and I would be very unhappy if that was all I had. Social life and family are at least as essential. I can even enjoy urban entertainment (bars, discos, casinos) as much as the next one but they are not as fulfilling to me as nature.

    In summary, my only disagreement with you is this: "four hours is the most that anybody should want to spend in nature". Like it or not, some of us have our brains wired very differently.

    PS- The only one city of the entire US East Coast that I'm planning to visit again is Miami Beach (mostly for the beach and year-round warm waters) and the one that I hope I'll never have to visit again is rodent-infested, dirty New York .

    Replies: @songbird

    , @blatnoi
    @silviosilver

    Cities all feel very similar after a while, but I agree that there is something seriously missing in AaronB's hypothesis. Humans are social and the greatest joys will only come from interactions with other humans, especially if you treat living in society as an ultimate 'simulation'. I just enjoy When I was young I moved to a completely different city and enjoyed setting up a new life from basically nothing. I did have an 'out' of possibly moving back with my parents if I ever ran out of my meagre savings, but luckily didn't have to use it.

    I can probably last several days in nature and if you know a bit about rock formations or types of plants or insects, it can definitely capture your attention for a while. I've hiked on mountains and camped there, even though this was a while ago. But it is true that it is pretty unforgiving and modern humans can't survive there. If you ever want to be stripped of your mystical regards for a city, go to a Japanese mountain and look at a Japanese city. There are probably few urban agglomerations more ugly than the Japanese city. Some say that this is because the Japanese see nature as an enemy that tries to kill them with earthquakes, tsunamis, torrential downpours and landslides, etc... and there is quite a bit of truth to that. It's no surprise that the Japanese city is an 'opposite' aesthetic to the grandness of nature. True, Middle Eastern cities are way uglier, but they don't have the majestic nature that is present in Japan right beside every ugly city, which creates quite the contrast.

    , @reiner Tor
    @silviosilver

    Walking in nature is a good thing, but only if it’s not a totally wild nature. You don’t want bears and hungry wolves around.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    , @Dmitry
    @silviosilver

    If you live in a cold dark Northern place, then nature is indeed boring and inaccessible much of year, especially in those countries where too much was converted to agriculture, and the city seems comparatively more necessary.

    On the other hand, if you live in a temperate area like Southern Europe, then your attitude can be different, and nature is much more welcoming for more months of the year, and the idea of living in an isolate village can be quite attractive. If someone said you will be forced to live in a tiny village in Tuscany for a year - does that sound so scary for us, like a small village would be in a Northern country?

    And if you live in a Caribbean island, I'm sure you can be entertained simply by the warm sea.


    -

    Romanticism about nature is a recent development, emerging from the late 18th century, in Northern Europe, among the urban bourgeoisie.

    Concept of sublime beauty of nature, applied Kant, can seem a response of people living in luxury of too safe conditions, in regions of the world where the weather rarely injures mankind.

    I doubt if you experience regular earthquakes in Japan, or cyclones in Bangladesh, that you would romanticize it as a category of sublime beauty, but rather as an unpleasant trauma. On the other hand, when you are in one of the most naturally boring and stable regions (i.e. Germany), - then it becomes easier to view such things as sublime.

  46. @AaronB
    @Mikel

    Great comment, thanks.

    I would argue that this mysterious feeling you cannot express in words is precisely that experience of the numinous :) Words can only hint at it. Mystery, wonder, magic - these are terms that hint at something, but we know not what.

    Your attempt to describe it is beautiful and gets at many aspects of it.

    And no, I am not arguing for traditional religion - just this experience of wonder.


    But perhaps the most important feeling that I try to recreate is the happiness that I felt as a teenager when I saw virgin mountain landscapes for the first time. I guess being in nature is for me a way to try to find happiness in life and at least to some extent it works.
     
    Nature really Paradise Lost, isn't it.

    We evolved to be hunter gatherers, and in that kind of environment we find out greatest satisfaction.

    I was car camping on a ledge overlooking this vast savanna like field dotted with scrub and some dwarf oak trees, with massive boulders strewn across the field, and the other side the mountains started.

    In the cool early morning I would just set off exploring across this savannah, with no trail and no plan just to reach the mountains, and just wander. It was a completely different experience than hiking on a trail - "straight line, clear direction" - and I think, more satisfying. I was amazed how intuitively I was able to find my about and back to my car.

    It was perfect hunter/gatherer terrain.

    Btw, if you're heading Southwest, might I recommend the Dragoon Mountains of southern Arizona? That is where I have been the past week.

    Sublime scenery and a place of great spiritual power. It was in these mountains that the Apache Indians lived and fought, defeating the Spanish for centuries and staving off the encroachments of modern civilized life until final defeat.

    So it's one of the last stands of hunter-gatherers and life in the paradise that is nature against the dreariness of modern machine civilization :)

    The spirit of Cochise and his band of happy warriors smiles benignly on all true-hearted lovers of nature who come into his realm :)

    I drove down a BLM dirt road and accidentally found one of the most sublime camp spots I've ever been - if you end up going, I can give you the GPS coordinates its not on any map.

    Enjoy wherever you end up going.

    Replies: @Mikel, @BBerliner

    …“We need wilderness whether or not we ever set foot in it. We need a refuge even though we may never need to go there. I may never in my life get to Alaska, for example, but I am grateful that it’s there. We need the possibility of escape as surely as we need hope; without it the life of the cities would drive all men into crime or drugs or psychoanalysis.”

    …“The night flows back, the mighty stillness embraces and includes me; I can see the stars again and the world of starlight. I am twenty miles or more from the nearest fellow human, but instead of loneliness I feel loveliness. Loveliness and a quiet exultation.”

    …“In the mixture of starlight and cloud-reflected sunlight in which the desert world is now illuminated, each single object stands forth in preternatural though transient brilliance, a final assertion of existence before the coming of night: each rock and shrub and tree, each flower, each stem of grass, diverse and separate, vividly isolate, yet joined each to every other in a unity which generously includes me and my solitude as well.”

    Edward Abbey, Desert Solitaire

    Here’s a very beautiful song: Midnight in the Desert by Crystal Gayle

    • Replies: @AaronB
    @BBerliner

    Thank you.

    I read Desert Solitaire as a teenager and I remember it made a strong impression on me. I remember him writing about how the canyon country of Utah was for him, the ideal landscape, and I was intrigued.

    Those quotes from the book are true and beautiful, and the music is lovely.

  47. @silviosilver
    @Mikel

    Nature's okay, but really, four hours is the most that anybody should want to spend in nature, and even that is seriously pushing it. Personally, I start getting bored after fifteen minutes. Once you've seen two or three beaches or mountains or lakes, you've pretty much seen them all. I know each one is unique and all that, but that's something you realize straight away and it doesn't prevent the boredom from setting in.

    What you do in nature anyway, just look at it? How many people can really do that all day though. That's why we have picnics or go for swims or even just walks, because nature, of itself, is fundamentally boring and we need something to distract us when we're in it. Personally, I think an underrated reason cities have attracted people for thousands of years is because we're anxious to get away from nature and its blizzards, its heat waves, its stings, its snakebites, its swamps and its sands.

    For me, the really humbling experience is to take in the splendor of the city from an elevated vantage point and reflect on the myriad benefits that have accrued to us from transcending nature's meager bounty. Always remember: I could go three years without nature and not miss it, but could you really go three days without electricity?

    Replies: @Mikel, @blatnoi, @reiner Tor, @Dmitry

    Once you’ve seen two or three beaches or mountains or lakes, you’ve pretty much seen them all.

    That’s exactly how I feel about cities.

    Once you’ve been to several of them, what can you possibly expect to find different in another one? More buildings, streets, statues, churches, museums,…? Fine if that’s of interest to you but I’d gladly trade an early and comfortable retirement tomorrow in exchange for not visiting another city in my life. The only ones I would miss are Las Vegas and Donosti/San Sebastian, for different reasons, but it would be perfectly bearable.

    To make matters worse, I was born in Europe and visited early on most of its major cities. I have spent enough hours visiting old churches, cathedrals, museums and historical monuments to last me the rest of my life.

    With that said, I am not interested in preaching my way of life to anyone. I am OK if the vast majority of people feel like you do and I know plenty of them who do (although one of them couldn’t help feeling genuinely amazed when I took her to see the Delicate Arch near Moab, UT).

    Besides, not everything in my life is nature and I would be very unhappy if that was all I had. Social life and family are at least as essential. I can even enjoy urban entertainment (bars, discos, casinos) as much as the next one but they are not as fulfilling to me as nature.

    In summary, my only disagreement with you is this: “four hours is the most that anybody should want to spend in nature”. Like it or not, some of us have our brains wired very differently.

    PS- The only one city of the entire US East Coast that I’m planning to visit again is Miami Beach (mostly for the beach and year-round warm waters) and the one that I hope I’ll never have to visit again is rodent-infested, dirty New York .

    • Agree: Carlo, AaronB, mal
    • Replies: @songbird
    @Mikel

    I agree with your sentiments about NYC, but I think it would be fair to call the natural outdoor environment rodent-infested.

    I mean, once I was sitting by a fire in the darkness and I heard a rustling behind me. I mistook it first for a mouse, and then a skunk, but it turned out to be close to a 40 lb porcupine (2nd biggest rodent in NA), and as I stood stock still, it came close enough to sniff the toe of my boot. Meanwhile, I remembered with horror, the tales of porcupines chewing up the boots that people left outside their tents to get at the salt on them.

    Replies: @AP

  48. Song about the Church of Woke.

  49. @BBerliner
    @AaronB



    ...“We need wilderness whether or not we ever set foot in it. We need a refuge even though we may never need to go there. I may never in my life get to Alaska, for example, but I am grateful that it’s there. We need the possibility of escape as surely as we need hope; without it the life of the cities would drive all men into crime or drugs or psychoanalysis.”

    ...“The night flows back, the mighty stillness embraces and includes me; I can see the stars again and the world of starlight. I am twenty miles or more from the nearest fellow human, but instead of loneliness I feel loveliness. Loveliness and a quiet exultation.”

    ...“In the mixture of starlight and cloud-reflected sunlight in which the desert world is now illuminated, each single object stands forth in preternatural though transient brilliance, a final assertion of existence before the coming of night: each rock and shrub and tree, each flower, each stem of grass, diverse and separate, vividly isolate, yet joined each to every other in a unity which generously includes me and my solitude as well.”

    Edward Abbey, Desert Solitaire

    https://149363935.v2.pressablecdn.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/11/resource_desert-solitaire.jpg

     

    Here’s a very beautiful song: Midnight in the Desert by Crystal Gayle



    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-cmUpgvmFk4

     

    Replies: @AaronB

    Thank you.

    I read Desert Solitaire as a teenager and I remember it made a strong impression on me. I remember him writing about how the canyon country of Utah was for him, the ideal landscape, and I was intrigued.

    Those quotes from the book are true and beautiful, and the music is lovely.

  50. @Not Raul
    @Mikhail

    Mike Whitney’s last Counterpunch article was about three years ago. Was there some sort of incident?

    Replies: @Mikhail

    As I noted further up this thread: after Alexander Cockburn’s passing, Counterpunch has gone in the direction of being more establishment like on Russia related matters, along the lines of the Amy Goodman hosted Democracy Now.

    • Thanks: Not Raul
  51. An example of a hypocritically pious and ignorant Brit:

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/olympics/article-9305463/Olympic-chiefs-slammed-British-cycling-gold-medallist-Callum-Skinner-Russia-stance.html

    No outrage that clean Russian track and field athletes weren’t allowed to compete at the last summer Olympics. In addition, Russia athletes will be barred from competing in the upcoming world indoor championships.

    • Agree: Not Raul
    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @Mikhail


    In addition, Russia athletes will be barred from competing in the upcoming world indoor championships.
     
    As in the world in door track and field championships.
  52. I just saw the head of #CPAC on TV. He seems really gay. Flaming.

    Don’t hate me; but Hawley seems a little gay (and a little autistic), too.

  53. @Mikhail
    An example of a hypocritically pious and ignorant Brit:

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/olympics/article-9305463/Olympic-chiefs-slammed-British-cycling-gold-medallist-Callum-Skinner-Russia-stance.html

    No outrage that clean Russian track and field athletes weren't allowed to compete at the last summer Olympics. In addition, Russia athletes will be barred from competing in the upcoming world indoor championships.

    Replies: @Mikhail

    In addition, Russia athletes will be barred from competing in the upcoming world indoor championships.

    As in the world in door track and field championships.

  54. I guess if Counterpunch were to host an author who says that airplanes and cars are secret aliens from outer space that are a threat to Earth then the publication bears at least some responsibility for the quality of the works of the author? Does some webzine bear zero responsibility at all in terms of the quality of the articles and authors that it allows to be posted on its pages, that it as control over, with no obligation to police the quality of any articles posted? I mean if a webzine were to posts articles by an author about how penicillin for pets is a secret plot to turn their DNA into stone, should the owners of the webzine have some accountability with regards to the lack of the use of proper discretion in terms of which articles should be allowed to be posted? Are people categorically arguing as a policy that a website should not be able to exert some form of control over which articles by people it allows to be posted on its website, some of which may affect its reputation?

    • Replies: @Hyperborean
    @128


    I guess if Counterpunch were to host an author who says that airplanes and cars are secret aliens from outer space that are a threat to Earth then the publication bears at least some responsibility for the quality of the works of the author?
     
    Did one of their authors actually argue this or are you just making up hypotheticals?

    I don't really find the writings of ex. Vltchek (too many "powerful takes") or Hopkins (boring and repetitive) interesting, but their content seems quite in order with a magazine that is, at least ostensibly, supposed to be a kind of dissident, "anti-imperialist" outlet.

    Given that we have seen other magazines (see The Intercept) that have been not only diverted but even turned actively against the original aspirations of its founders by more politically establishmentarian newcomers, it does not seem unreasonable to question the motives of the editors.
    , @Mikhail
    @128

    On the matter of media buying into negatively inaccurate stereotypes along the lines of the Counterpunch piece I linked further up this thread:

    https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2021/02/27/putting-artemi-panarin-situation-in-proper-perspective/

    , @reiner Tor
    @128


    Does some webzine bear zero responsibility at all in terms of the quality of the articles and authors that it allows to be posted on its pages
     
    Are you talking about the Unz Review or something else?
  55. Say not counterpunch, say your local newspaper allows stories written by a reporter that a 100 mile asteroid is going to crash into earth tomorrow, should the editor not exercise some control over the articles that his reporters post?

  56. Hey Anatoly,

    You didn’t answer my question on the last open thread. If I stop contributing to your Patreon (because you said you have lots of money and don’t need it), will I still get your signed book for past donations if you ever get around to writing it?

    That said, I might not stop contributing since this is pretty much one of the only sites that I read, I have money as well, and last week it has been worth it.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    @blatnoi


    You didn’t answer my question on the last open thread. If I stop contributing to your Patreon (because you said you have lots of money and don’t need it), will I still get your signed book for past donations if you ever get around to writing it?
     
    I didn't say that I have lots of money. I have enough money that I don't want to take money from people who are in financial hardship and for whom such contributions could lead to a noticeable decline in their material quality of life. If on the other hand you are substantially moneyed and enjoy reading my poasts or at least derive some value from them, then yes - monetizing a minor part of said value and transferring it back to me is something that I highly appreciate.

    I know you contribute, thank you, I keep a list of contributors which I update every few months and you are on it so if you stop you'll certainly get the benefits you signed up for.

    Replies: @blatnoi

  57. For anyone who doesn’t mind bad movies, I recommend the Russian movie “Blackout: Invasion Earth.” (2019) I heard the budget was only $5 million. If so, at that price, I would say it is more of a spectacle than most Chinese movies that have a budget of 4-6x.

    I interpreted the ending as being a secretly based message.

  58. This one might have some legs.

    When US leftists are paranoid right now, this provides all the Brown Scare they need.

    • Replies: @Not Only Wrathful
    @216

    The comments below that Twitter post are smooth like an inflated balloon. There is not one wrinkle expressed when they are all enabling each others' beliefs that CPAC2021 is an openly Nazi event. This is impossible to differentiate from psychosis.

    , @The Spirit of Enoch Powell
    @216

    QAnon levels of schizophrenia.

  59. One day YouTube will save millions of dollars in hosting fees by teaching people the simple right-click -> loop function.

    Ah who am I kidding, plebs on reddit still take PHYSICAL FUCKING SCREENSHOTS of their monitors instead of hitting print key.

  60. @Shortsword
    https://twitter.com/akarlin88/status/1336796546843684864

    Game was trash so maybe not perhaps not a big issue...

    Replies: @blatnoi

    Really, Cyberpunk 2077 was trash? I read lots of good things about it as long as you get it for PC, where the bugs are minimal. Why was it bad exactly? Since it didn’t get overwhelmingly good reviews, I was thinking of skipping it this year anyways since there are lots of other games to catch up on. There was a Polish nationalist on Twitter who was quite proud of it too…

    • Replies: @Shortsword
    @blatnoi

    Trash is maybe pushing it. But it's nothing special. And I don't even care about the bugs.

    The game is mostly linear with few branching paths. Very few real choices with consequences. Gameplay is mediocre. Nothing to do in the city.

    The game clearly lacks many intended features and some parts are obviously placeholders. For example: the police in the game doesn't chase after you, instead they just spawn a few meters behind you...

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SwYPmMrzY6I

  61. @AaronB
    Politics is the art of forcing everybody else to live by your values. It is the belief that there is only "one" right way that everyone must live.

    But must it always be so? At the root of the problem is the idea that "humanity" is a single organism rather than just a collection of individuals. Humanity is a protagonist in a drama that is going somewhere. Therefore we must fight over which vision of the "common good" will steer the ship of humanity.

    For an individual human, obviously he must choose one course of action. Humanity as an individual must obviously have only one course.

    This is a great example of how abstraction and language can trap people in self defeating fantasy - language is on some level a disease, despite its obvious advantages.

    A very simple solution for most of our political differences would simply be to create different living arrangements for different people.

    You want to live with only people of the same race as you? There are towns and cities for that. You enjoy living in a community with people from lots of different races and cultures? There are towns and cities for that.

    It's funny how there are so many rational and sensible solutions to human problems, yet they never get implemented.

    It's not just that humanity gets caught up in collective myths that are just the reification if language, it's as if there is an irreducible element - a group of people - in humanity working against happiness.

    Replies: @Boomthorkell, @dfordoom

    it’s as if there is an irreducible element – a group of people – in humanity working against happiness.

    That sounds plausible.

    Are people who are highly engaged politically generally happy? Are they generally successful and content in their personal lives? Are they psychologically stable? Are they people who would be regarded by others as pleasant people to be around?

    Is it possible that political engagement is a mental illness?

    And is it possible that a society in which huge numbers of people are passionately engaged in politics is actually a very sick society?

    In a sane society people would pursue love or friendship or sex or art or just doing things like they like doing.

    A major factor that works against human happiness is the desire to be useful (and politics is part of this unhealthy desire). We need to spend more time and energy on useless things. That’s why art is worth pursuing. It’s entirely useless. It exists merely for the pleasure of creating it or the pleasure of viewing it. Hobbies are useless, which is they’re worth doing. Going for a walk in the park or along the beach is a useless activity which is why (if you happen to enjoy such things) you should do so.

  62. @blatnoi
    @Shortsword

    Really, Cyberpunk 2077 was trash? I read lots of good things about it as long as you get it for PC, where the bugs are minimal. Why was it bad exactly? Since it didn't get overwhelmingly good reviews, I was thinking of skipping it this year anyways since there are lots of other games to catch up on. There was a Polish nationalist on Twitter who was quite proud of it too...

    Replies: @Shortsword

    Trash is maybe pushing it. But it’s nothing special. And I don’t even care about the bugs.

    The game is mostly linear with few branching paths. Very few real choices with consequences. Gameplay is mediocre. Nothing to do in the city.

    The game clearly lacks many intended features and some parts are obviously placeholders. For example: the police in the game doesn’t chase after you, instead they just spawn a few meters behind you…

    • Thanks: blatnoi
  63. @Mikel
    @AaronB


    I wonder if true atheism – not defined as disbelief in the Christian God, but rather defined as the complete absence of the sense of the numinous that characterizes certain hardcore materialists – is only really possible in an urban environment?
     
    I don't think so. I purposely live on the countryside and spend as much time as I can in the surrounding mountains and deserts (as a matter of fact, I'm taking to the road tonight and we may cross our paths somewhere in the Southwest, who knows) but this hasn't helped me much with my lack of religiosity.

    On the other hand, there is a deep and somewhat mysterious reason why I chose to live close to nature. I am not sure that I could express it properly with words. Being in contact with nature allows me to feel its beauty and its innate perfection, which are totally different from man-made works of art and engineering, and amazingly came about without anybody building it. Natural landscapes just formed themselves out of chaos and spontaneous natural forces but somehow we humans were born with the ability to appreciate its beauty and serenity. I'm not sure that any other animal has this ability.

    Being out in the middle of nature is also for me a humbling experience when I feel how fragile I am compared to its vastness and the power of its forces. But perhaps the most important feeling that I try to recreate is the happiness that I felt as a teenager when I saw virgin mountain landscapes for the first time. I guess being in nature is for me a way to try to find happiness in life and at least to some extent it works.

    Replies: @AaronB, @silviosilver, @dfordoom

    I guess being in nature is for me a way to try to find happiness in life and at least to some extent it works.

    Being in nature makes me anxious and depressed. But a lot of people seem to enjoy it, so good luck to them.

    On the whole I find more beauty in artificial things than in natural things. To me a gothic cathedral is more beautiful than a mountain. There are even some modernist buildings (such as Saarinen’s TWA terminal in New York) they I find more beautiful than forests.

    Whatever floats your boat.

    • Replies: @AP
    @dfordoom


    On the whole I find more beauty in artificial things than in natural things. To me a gothic cathedral is more beautiful than a mountain.
     
    I find that "organic-seeming" architecture made by people more connected to the natural world (such as the builders of the Gothic cathedrals) is more beautiful than modernist works made by people who are disconnected from the natural world.

    Replies: @songbird, @Hyperborean, @dfordoom, @Dmitry

    , @reiner Tor
    @dfordoom

    Is the beauty of a cathedral even comparable to the beauty of a forest or a mountain? I find it strange to exclude whole categories of beauty, I’d find it a tragedy to lose either.

    I also like little things like the yellow and brown leaves on the ground at a playground, which is a little piece of nature with lots of concrete around it.

    Replies: @dfordoom

  64. @Kent Nationalist
    @songbird

    There's a massive push also for lesbianism at the moment. I used to look at the schedules or reviews of new films coming out at arthouse cinemas and the non-black ones often had a lesbian relationship (usually with two young, cute actresses) even if they were not otherwise specifically homosexual films (unlike gay films, which had their own separate genre).

    I don't really understand the reason before this. Obviously lesbianism does not actually exist, so unlike with gay films there is no sort of market for these. The only thing I can think of is that it is a way for film directors and producers to fulfil diversity quotas (which already exist for many film awards) without showing male homosexuality, which is more viscerally disgusting.

    Replies: @songbird, @dfordoom, @reiner Tor

    I used to look at the schedules or reviews of new films coming out at arthouse cinemas and the non-black ones often had a lesbian relationship (usually with two young, cute actresses) even if they were not otherwise specifically homosexual films (unlike gay films, which had their own separate genre).

    I don’t really understand the reason before this. Obviously lesbianism does not actually exist, so unlike with gay films there is no sort of market for these.

    Maybe the market is heterosexual men. If the movies in question involve lots of sex and nudity then the market is definitely heterosexual men. If the movies in question involve lots of angsting over relationships then the market is lesbians.

    There was a whole genre of lesbian vampire movies back in the 70s, with lots of sex and nudity. They were aimed at heterosexual men.

    Although I have come across a handful of heterosexual women who like 70s erotic lesbian vampire movies.

    Maybe some women find depictions of lesbian sex less disturbing than depictions of heterosexual sex.

    I assume these modern Hollywood movies are all about the emotional angst and there’s nothing lesbians love more than emotional angst.

  65. Navalny survived the assassination attempt and set off a movement unlike any ever seen in history

    • Replies: @Gerard.Gerard
    @Shortsword

    Sizeable chance that the image circulated a day before isn't fake and his wife does have a German passport. Some groups are saying that the number on the document does match to a woman with the name Yuliya Navalny, in Germany. The number more important than the photo or signature for finding the truth here

  66. @silviosilver
    @Mikel

    Nature's okay, but really, four hours is the most that anybody should want to spend in nature, and even that is seriously pushing it. Personally, I start getting bored after fifteen minutes. Once you've seen two or three beaches or mountains or lakes, you've pretty much seen them all. I know each one is unique and all that, but that's something you realize straight away and it doesn't prevent the boredom from setting in.

    What you do in nature anyway, just look at it? How many people can really do that all day though. That's why we have picnics or go for swims or even just walks, because nature, of itself, is fundamentally boring and we need something to distract us when we're in it. Personally, I think an underrated reason cities have attracted people for thousands of years is because we're anxious to get away from nature and its blizzards, its heat waves, its stings, its snakebites, its swamps and its sands.

    For me, the really humbling experience is to take in the splendor of the city from an elevated vantage point and reflect on the myriad benefits that have accrued to us from transcending nature's meager bounty. Always remember: I could go three years without nature and not miss it, but could you really go three days without electricity?

    Replies: @Mikel, @blatnoi, @reiner Tor, @Dmitry

    Cities all feel very similar after a while, but I agree that there is something seriously missing in AaronB’s hypothesis. Humans are social and the greatest joys will only come from interactions with other humans, especially if you treat living in society as an ultimate ‘simulation’. I just enjoy When I was young I moved to a completely different city and enjoyed setting up a new life from basically nothing. I did have an ‘out’ of possibly moving back with my parents if I ever ran out of my meagre savings, but luckily didn’t have to use it.

    I can probably last several days in nature and if you know a bit about rock formations or types of plants or insects, it can definitely capture your attention for a while. I’ve hiked on mountains and camped there, even though this was a while ago. But it is true that it is pretty unforgiving and modern humans can’t survive there. If you ever want to be stripped of your mystical regards for a city, go to a Japanese mountain and look at a Japanese city. There are probably few urban agglomerations more ugly than the Japanese city. Some say that this is because the Japanese see nature as an enemy that tries to kill them with earthquakes, tsunamis, torrential downpours and landslides, etc… and there is quite a bit of truth to that. It’s no surprise that the Japanese city is an ‘opposite’ aesthetic to the grandness of nature. True, Middle Eastern cities are way uglier, but they don’t have the majestic nature that is present in Japan right beside every ugly city, which creates quite the contrast.

  67. @Carlo
    @AaronB

    You are into something here, and even though I am myself religious (traditional Catholic) I agree almost completely with your comment. The Indo-European word for God (*dyew) came from the bright clear sky. In larger urban areas the sense of infinite depth and transcendence of the sky, the diurnal and especially the nocturnal (due to luminic pollution) is lost. My own personal experience is that in the city I am always locked up with a roof over my head. As I myself am a traditional Catholic, I often go to a monastery in a rural area and an important part of my religious experience for me there is to contemplate the clear, unobstructed night sky.

    Replies: @AaronB, @Agathoklis

    You guys should try getting laid.

    • Troll: Carlo
  68. @AaronB
    @Boomthorkell


    The greatest generally being that a sizeable enough minority or plurality of people really just despise the idea of letting others live lives that they do not agree with
     
    This is a major problem, yes. I think comes from fear and insecurity.

    Most people are not satisfied with their way of life, so to strengthen their faith in it they insist everyone live like them. People who don't live like them threaten them.

    If their way of life gave them genuine pleasure and satisfaction, there would be no threat in others not living like them. The rewards of their way of life would be self-evident - they would not other people to build their confidence they have chosen correctly.

    But in fact different things make different people happy. I think the solution would be for people to live for pleasure (broadly defined) and not according to what society tells them is "valuable" - this way, they all discover what they find intrinsically satisfying, and will not be threatened by others doing what they find intrinsically satisfying.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    Most people are not satisfied with their way of life, so to strengthen their faith in it they insist everyone live like them. People who don’t live like them threaten them.

    Yeah. It hasn’t always been the case, certainly not in every society, but it has been a characteristic feature of western civilisation since the 19th century.

    It’s also a characteristic feature of Puritanism and Calvinism. Such people know that they’re the Elect and they know they’re good and righteous but they’re miserable and they’re enraged that all those wicked sinners are enjoying themselves. They must be stopped.

    Puritans love misery, but mostly they love inflicting misery on others.

    Since SJWs and Wokeists are a mutated variety of Puritan they share this mindset. They know they’re super-virtuous but they’re not really happy and they’re angry at the thought that the non-virtuous might be happy.

    People think they’re doing what they want to do but they’re still unhappy and dissatisfied, so they’re threatened by anybody who has made different choices. And they get angry if those people who have made different choices seem happy.

    • Replies: @Not Only Wrathful
    @dfordoom

    If you just know you're good, without having to earn it through intense doubt, you will do a lot of bad. Like seeing yourself through glasses with a halo and angel wings etched on them, even when burning witches, you'll look beatific.

    , @Coconuts
    @dfordoom


    Since SJWs and Wokeists are a mutated variety of Puritan they share this mindset. They know they’re super-virtuous but they’re not really happy and they’re angry at the thought that the non-virtuous might be happy.
     
    One way in which SJWs are mutated puritans is that they have absorbed a certain amount of 'classic' Marxist and Hegelian beliefs. One of these is that the existence, and happiness, fulfillment etc. of any human individual is dependent on the collectivity and cannot exist or be realised outside it. Similar to the paraphrase of Hegel ideas that the individual is to the state as the eye is to the human head and body, if the eye is severed from its parent body it is dead and cannot function.

    This is one reason they are preoccupied by controlling everyone's ideas and behaviour, because they believe it is the only way in which the correct social/collective conditions can be created for anyone to be fully happy. I suspect they pick up ideas like this through the literature and ideological material they study, it is an interesting aspect to SJWism that doesn't seem to get the attention it should.
    , @sher singh
    @dfordoom

    racialists & nationalists are a kind of puritan where they black-white assign virtue based on characteristics.

    Puritanism created the modern world & the bureaucratic, legalistic state.

    Puritanism seems to be a way to deal with fast pace of change.

    I see it dying down in the next 80 years,

  69. @216
    https://twitter.com/hami/status/1365339498364604419

    This one might have some legs.

    When US leftists are paranoid right now, this provides all the Brown Scare they need.

    Replies: @Not Only Wrathful, @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    The comments below that Twitter post are smooth like an inflated balloon. There is not one wrinkle expressed when they are all enabling each others’ beliefs that CPAC2021 is an openly Nazi event. This is impossible to differentiate from psychosis.

  70. @dfordoom
    @AaronB


    Most people are not satisfied with their way of life, so to strengthen their faith in it they insist everyone live like them. People who don’t live like them threaten them.
     
    Yeah. It hasn't always been the case, certainly not in every society, but it has been a characteristic feature of western civilisation since the 19th century.

    It's also a characteristic feature of Puritanism and Calvinism. Such people know that they're the Elect and they know they're good and righteous but they're miserable and they're enraged that all those wicked sinners are enjoying themselves. They must be stopped.

    Puritans love misery, but mostly they love inflicting misery on others.

    Since SJWs and Wokeists are a mutated variety of Puritan they share this mindset. They know they're super-virtuous but they're not really happy and they're angry at the thought that the non-virtuous might be happy.

    People think they're doing what they want to do but they're still unhappy and dissatisfied, so they're threatened by anybody who has made different choices. And they get angry if those people who have made different choices seem happy.

    Replies: @Not Only Wrathful, @Coconuts, @sher singh

    If you just know you’re good, without having to earn it through intense doubt, you will do a lot of bad. Like seeing yourself through glasses with a halo and angel wings etched on them, even when burning witches, you’ll look beatific.

  71. @Shortsword
    https://twitter.com/BirthGauge/status/1313506814449905675

    Interesting.

    Replies: @Hyperborean

    Fertility of non-Western migrants went into steep decline when the Anders Fogh Rasmussen government introduced changes to family reunification migration, e.g. the 24-year-rule, meaning that amrriage migration is only allowed when both partners at least 24.

    https://mobile.twitter.com/BirthGauge/status/1313507391418368000

    Can this really be the only thing that changed? Seems quite amazing if it is.

    Fortunately (for the country) and unfortunately (for the sake of these statistics), MENAPT (Greater Middle East + Somalia) are only 55% of Denmark’s non-Western immigrants, so the birth rate of the more undesirable population is higher to some degree.

    Hopefully when the government starts publishing data based on the new classifications we will know more.

  72. @128
    I guess if Counterpunch were to host an author who says that airplanes and cars are secret aliens from outer space that are a threat to Earth then the publication bears at least some responsibility for the quality of the works of the author? Does some webzine bear zero responsibility at all in terms of the quality of the articles and authors that it allows to be posted on its pages, that it as control over, with no obligation to police the quality of any articles posted? I mean if a webzine were to posts articles by an author about how penicillin for pets is a secret plot to turn their DNA into stone, should the owners of the webzine have some accountability with regards to the lack of the use of proper discretion in terms of which articles should be allowed to be posted? Are people categorically arguing as a policy that a website should not be able to exert some form of control over which articles by people it allows to be posted on its website, some of which may affect its reputation?

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @Mikhail, @reiner Tor

    I guess if Counterpunch were to host an author who says that airplanes and cars are secret aliens from outer space that are a threat to Earth then the publication bears at least some responsibility for the quality of the works of the author?

    Did one of their authors actually argue this or are you just making up hypotheticals?

    I don’t really find the writings of ex. Vltchek (too many “powerful takes”) or Hopkins (boring and repetitive) interesting, but their content seems quite in order with a magazine that is, at least ostensibly, supposed to be a kind of dissident, “anti-imperialist” outlet.

    Given that we have seen other magazines (see The Intercept) that have been not only diverted but even turned actively against the original aspirations of its founders by more politically establishmentarian newcomers, it does not seem unreasonable to question the motives of the editors.

  73. @blatnoi
    Hey Anatoly,

    You didn't answer my question on the last open thread. If I stop contributing to your Patreon (because you said you have lots of money and don't need it), will I still get your signed book for past donations if you ever get around to writing it?

    That said, I might not stop contributing since this is pretty much one of the only sites that I read, I have money as well, and last week it has been worth it.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

    You didn’t answer my question on the last open thread. If I stop contributing to your Patreon (because you said you have lots of money and don’t need it), will I still get your signed book for past donations if you ever get around to writing it?

    I didn’t say that I have lots of money. I have enough money that I don’t want to take money from people who are in financial hardship and for whom such contributions could lead to a noticeable decline in their material quality of life. If on the other hand you are substantially moneyed and enjoy reading my poasts or at least derive some value from them, then yes – monetizing a minor part of said value and transferring it back to me is something that I highly appreciate.

    I know you contribute, thank you, I keep a list of contributors which I update every few months and you are on it so if you stop you’ll certainly get the benefits you signed up for.

    • Replies: @blatnoi
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Ah okay, I misunderstood it I guess. I do enjoy reading the posts and derive value from them so thanks for that.

    I still should probably shill out for the Gray Mirror as well.

    By the way, this is not for everybody and is probably not worth it if you're under 40, but to make more money, I suggest not drinking alcohol. I stopped completely six months ago, after a previous six months of drinking very little, since I just didn't have the time and needed my brain to be working better at my job. The time thing didn't work out since now I just sleep more than before, but brain is working better and I can focus more and get things done faster. As a side effect, I think I lost some weight, but definitely I'm not losing the ~100 dollars a month or more that was spent on alcohol previously. I do miss the social aspect of drinking with all sorts of strange and different people that I meet around here, but with the pandemic shutting bars, it's not really much of a choice.

  74. @Anatoly Karlin
    @blatnoi


    You didn’t answer my question on the last open thread. If I stop contributing to your Patreon (because you said you have lots of money and don’t need it), will I still get your signed book for past donations if you ever get around to writing it?
     
    I didn't say that I have lots of money. I have enough money that I don't want to take money from people who are in financial hardship and for whom such contributions could lead to a noticeable decline in their material quality of life. If on the other hand you are substantially moneyed and enjoy reading my poasts or at least derive some value from them, then yes - monetizing a minor part of said value and transferring it back to me is something that I highly appreciate.

    I know you contribute, thank you, I keep a list of contributors which I update every few months and you are on it so if you stop you'll certainly get the benefits you signed up for.

    Replies: @blatnoi

    Ah okay, I misunderstood it I guess. I do enjoy reading the posts and derive value from them so thanks for that.

    I still should probably shill out for the Gray Mirror as well.

    By the way, this is not for everybody and is probably not worth it if you’re under 40, but to make more money, I suggest not drinking alcohol. I stopped completely six months ago, after a previous six months of drinking very little, since I just didn’t have the time and needed my brain to be working better at my job. The time thing didn’t work out since now I just sleep more than before, but brain is working better and I can focus more and get things done faster. As a side effect, I think I lost some weight, but definitely I’m not losing the ~100 dollars a month or more that was spent on alcohol previously. I do miss the social aspect of drinking with all sorts of strange and different people that I meet around here, but with the pandemic shutting bars, it’s not really much of a choice.

  75. If only the rest of the world had copied New Zealand, then we’d have eliminated covid and there’d be no more lockdowns:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/27/new-zealand-auckland-to-go-into-seven-day-covid-lockdown

    • Replies: @Shortsword
    @g2k

    The rest of the world consists of more than small island nations.

    Replies: @g2k

    , @Abelard Lindsey
    @g2k

    Lockdowns are based on fake science.

    https://www.bworldonline.com/its-final-lockdowns-dont-work/

    Consider also that most "science" cannot be replicated and, therefor, cannot be considered legitimate science.

    https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=241683

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  76. @216
    https://twitter.com/hami/status/1365339498364604419

    This one might have some legs.

    When US leftists are paranoid right now, this provides all the Brown Scare they need.

    Replies: @Not Only Wrathful, @The Spirit of Enoch Powell

    QAnon levels of schizophrenia.

  77. @g2k
    If only the rest of the world had copied New Zealand, then we'd have eliminated covid and there'd be no more lockdowns:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/27/new-zealand-auckland-to-go-into-seven-day-covid-lockdown

    Replies: @Shortsword, @Abelard Lindsey

    The rest of the world consists of more than small island nations.

    • Replies: @g2k
    @Shortsword

    I know, but maybe they were just unlucky, there's lots of other small island nations that were able to lockdown long and hard enough to get covid cases to 0 and then completely cut themselves off from the rest of the world, so that they'd never have to lockdown again:

    https://jerseyeveningpost.com/news/2020/11/07/islanders-warned-that-jersey-could-be-heading-for-another-lockdown-as-active-cases-top-100/

    https://www.itv.com/news/channel/2021-01-23/guernsey-to-enter-lockdown

    https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2021-01-05/isle-of-man-re-enters-lockdown-after-fears-of-covid-spread-in-the-community

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-australia-56035668


    only a covidiot would oppose such a strategy, what's stopping the USA and Russia? The uk has just extended lockdown by another 4 months despite vaccinating nearly a third of the population.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @g2k

  78. @Shortsword
    @g2k

    The rest of the world consists of more than small island nations.

    Replies: @g2k

    I know, but maybe they were just unlucky, there’s lots of other small island nations that were able to lockdown long and hard enough to get covid cases to 0 and then completely cut themselves off from the rest of the world, so that they’d never have to lockdown again:

    https://jerseyeveningpost.com/news/2020/11/07/islanders-warned-that-jersey-could-be-heading-for-another-lockdown-as-active-cases-top-100/

    https://www.itv.com/news/channel/2021-01-23/guernsey-to-enter-lockdown

    https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2021-01-05/isle-of-man-re-enters-lockdown-after-fears-of-covid-spread-in-the-community

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-australia-56035668

    only a covidiot would oppose such a strategy, what’s stopping the USA and Russia? The uk has just extended lockdown by another 4 months despite vaccinating nearly a third of the population.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
    @g2k


    only a covidiot would oppose such a [total isolation, lockdown till it's died out, then normal life except for the isolation] strategy, what’s stopping the USA and Russia? The uk has just extended lockdown by another 4 months despite vaccinating nearly a third of the population.
     
    Indeed, but for the West's ruling trash globalism and importing hordes of low IQ Third Worlders is a religion you might say; I don't know about Russia. As for the U.K., they're trying an experiment where they give everyone a single jab ASAP, with the booster at many as 12 weeks from them. Not supported by the mRNA companies which simply didn't test that regimen, but there's a good chance this is mostly harmless, and could be much better for the AZ/Oxford disappointment. Which means a large fraction of that nearly one third aren't yet properly vaccinated.

    Replies: @g2k

    , @g2k
    @g2k

    Double post, please delete

  79. @dfordoom
    @Mikel


    I guess being in nature is for me a way to try to find happiness in life and at least to some extent it works.
     
    Being in nature makes me anxious and depressed. But a lot of people seem to enjoy it, so good luck to them.

    On the whole I find more beauty in artificial things than in natural things. To me a gothic cathedral is more beautiful than a mountain. There are even some modernist buildings (such as Saarinen's TWA terminal in New York) they I find more beautiful than forests.

    Whatever floats your boat.

    Replies: @AP, @reiner Tor

    On the whole I find more beauty in artificial things than in natural things. To me a gothic cathedral is more beautiful than a mountain.

    I find that “organic-seeming” architecture made by people more connected to the natural world (such as the builders of the Gothic cathedrals) is more beautiful than modernist works made by people who are disconnected from the natural world.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @AP

    Some believe that the design distinction here is between one of a saving economy (gold-backed currency) and one of a debt economy (fiat currency.)

    I think it is also true that the medieval world was more cultivated. For example, forest trees were pruned in such a way as to make poles (so that they took on an unnatural appearance." A lot of natural grasses were cut for winter fodder. Though no doubt, it was earthier and less paved over.

    , @Hyperborean
    @AP


    I find that “organic-seeming” architecture made by people more connected to the natural world (such as the builders of the Gothic cathedrals) is more beautiful than modernist works made by people who are disconnected from the natural world.
     
    If you liked the organic elements of Gothic architecture, have you looked more at Art Nouveau and Arts and Crafts?

    Though the two related movements had different perspectives towards the past - with Art Nouveau seeking to create a new world and Arts and Crafts embracing mediaeval and folk traditions - they both incorporate natural themes in their works very beautifully.

    Replies: @AP

    , @dfordoom
    @AP


    I find that “organic-seeming” architecture made by people more connected to the natural world (such as the builders of the Gothic cathedrals) is more beautiful than modernist works made by people who are disconnected from the natural world.
     
    That's a valid preference, although it's not my preference.

    I see nature as ugly and depressing and I see art as a valiant attempt to create beauty in an ugly world. At least that's how I see the function of art.

    Of course the artistic establishment stopped believing in any kind of beauty a hundred years ago.

    But some modernist architects (and I emphasise some) did still manage to create beauty. Most just created ugliness, but not all.

    I don't dislike “organic-seeming” architecture. An artist (or an architect) can take the ugliness of nature and create something beautiful out of it.

    Natural things are more beautiful when the chaos of nature is moulded into some kind of order. Forests are ugly, but formal gardens are beautiful.

    I don't subscribe to the Cult of Nature, which I consider to be one of the many pernicious legacies of the Romantic Movement.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @AP, @songbird, @Not Only Wrathful

    , @Dmitry
    @AP

    I will disagree, as Northern European architecture from the medieval stage, had been usually trying to exclude nature (with an exception of country aristocratic retreats, and monastic, later university architecture*).

    On the other hand, from 19th century garden suburbs, and then more so modernist architecture, has been trying to incorporate nature into the house, and blur the "indoor/outdoor" distinction. For modernist architect's desire to incorporate nature, can see "Falling Water" by Frank Lloyd Wright, or Barbican in London as a famous example, or alternatively any tour of modernisty style American suburban houses on YouTube.**

    The changing attitude of architecture to nature, is as Marx has predicted, that as we become masters nature following the industrial revolution, our attitude to nature has become more sympathetic and sentimentalized than it was in earlier historical stages.

    -

    *If you compare architecture of Edinburgh in Scotland, with Oxford/Cambridge in England

    Cloisters of English university architecture, as of monastic architecture before it, was trying to blur indoor/outdoor distinction.
    https://i.imgur.com/6PG1Diq.jpg

    https://i.imgur.com/w3dS1zY.jpg

    On the other hand, Edinburgh is a more typical European city, where nature was overthrown until the 19th century city, and the human world replaces it.
    https://i.imgur.com/6KR04DJ.jpg


    ** I have some culture shock looking at the American modern house tours on YouTube, where the high level of glass and low level of distinction between indoors/outdoor - so that interior house feels only half-way indoors.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJ4v-yxuPk8

  80. @g2k
    If only the rest of the world had copied New Zealand, then we'd have eliminated covid and there'd be no more lockdowns:

    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/feb/27/new-zealand-auckland-to-go-into-seven-day-covid-lockdown

    Replies: @Shortsword, @Abelard Lindsey

    Lockdowns are based on fake science.

    https://www.bworldonline.com/its-final-lockdowns-dont-work/

    Consider also that most “science” cannot be replicated and, therefor, cannot be considered legitimate science.

    https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=241683

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Abelard Lindsey

    I wonder, how do viruses spread, if lockdowns don’t work?

    The study seems quite dubious to me, comparing very low population density Sweden with a generally very disciplined population (who keep a distance from each other, pandemic or not) to high population density countries like Italy or the Netherlands. South Korea is mentioned in both, so it’s unclear whether it was considered a country with or without a lockdown. But clearly South Korea did lots of things not done in the West, they did restrict individual freedom in substantial ways, so I’m not sure why it’s supposed to be an example of a hands off approach.

  81. @AP
    @dfordoom


    On the whole I find more beauty in artificial things than in natural things. To me a gothic cathedral is more beautiful than a mountain.
     
    I find that "organic-seeming" architecture made by people more connected to the natural world (such as the builders of the Gothic cathedrals) is more beautiful than modernist works made by people who are disconnected from the natural world.

    Replies: @songbird, @Hyperborean, @dfordoom, @Dmitry

    Some believe that the design distinction here is between one of a saving economy (gold-backed currency) and one of a debt economy (fiat currency.)

    I think it is also true that the medieval world was more cultivated. For example, forest trees were pruned in such a way as to make poles (so that they took on an unnatural appearance.” A lot of natural grasses were cut for winter fodder. Though no doubt, it was earthier and less paved over.

  82. @Mikel
    @silviosilver


    Once you’ve seen two or three beaches or mountains or lakes, you’ve pretty much seen them all.
     
    That's exactly how I feel about cities.

    Once you've been to several of them, what can you possibly expect to find different in another one? More buildings, streets, statues, churches, museums,...? Fine if that's of interest to you but I'd gladly trade an early and comfortable retirement tomorrow in exchange for not visiting another city in my life. The only ones I would miss are Las Vegas and Donosti/San Sebastian, for different reasons, but it would be perfectly bearable.

    To make matters worse, I was born in Europe and visited early on most of its major cities. I have spent enough hours visiting old churches, cathedrals, museums and historical monuments to last me the rest of my life.

    With that said, I am not interested in preaching my way of life to anyone. I am OK if the vast majority of people feel like you do and I know plenty of them who do (although one of them couldn't help feeling genuinely amazed when I took her to see the Delicate Arch near Moab, UT).

    Besides, not everything in my life is nature and I would be very unhappy if that was all I had. Social life and family are at least as essential. I can even enjoy urban entertainment (bars, discos, casinos) as much as the next one but they are not as fulfilling to me as nature.

    In summary, my only disagreement with you is this: "four hours is the most that anybody should want to spend in nature". Like it or not, some of us have our brains wired very differently.

    PS- The only one city of the entire US East Coast that I'm planning to visit again is Miami Beach (mostly for the beach and year-round warm waters) and the one that I hope I'll never have to visit again is rodent-infested, dirty New York .

    Replies: @songbird

    I agree with your sentiments about NYC, but I think it would be fair to call the natural outdoor environment rodent-infested.

    I mean, once I was sitting by a fire in the darkness and I heard a rustling behind me. I mistook it first for a mouse, and then a skunk, but it turned out to be close to a 40 lb porcupine (2nd biggest rodent in NA), and as I stood stock still, it came close enough to sniff the toe of my boot. Meanwhile, I remembered with horror, the tales of porcupines chewing up the boots that people left outside their tents to get at the salt on them.

    • Agree: Daniel Chieh
    • LOL: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @AP
    @songbird

    My kids and I once spent about 15 minutes happily close to a porcupine peacefully munching on grass. We got close enough to touch it, but did not do so. Interesting how perceptions can be different - nothing horrible crossed our minds.

    Replies: @songbird, @Mr. Hack

  83. All this talk of maximizing the phenotype IQ of blacks with expensive interventions (such as I believe even Molyneux advocates for) seems rather silly, IMO. It is probably impossible to move g, even if IQ can be nudged a tiny bit. The real efforts should be put into trying to modify black behavior. This would not necessarily be too hard or expensive. For example, get the media to stop valorizing them.
    ___
    Ages ago, I recall reading a Nazi-era essay critical of the Superman comic. I wonder what Nazis would say about the rumored new movie to be produced. Directed by JJ Abrahms and written by Ta Nehisi Coates, and possibly starring a black Superman.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @Coconuts
    @songbird


    Ages ago, I recall reading a Nazi-era essay critical of the Superman comic. I wonder what Nazis would say about the rumored new movie to be produced. Directed by JJ Abrahms and written by Ta Nehisi Coates, and possibly starring a black Superman.
     
    It would be something like: We told you this is what they will do and what your children will end up watching.
  84. @AaronB
    @Mikel

    Enjoy your weekend jaunt.

    I left this morning for what is supposed to be some very rugged and little visited desert areas on the Mexican border. We shall see.

    Replies: @Hacienda

    I’ve been curious about that area myself. I drove through Anza Borreago desert last weekend.

    Very cool with its dramatic flatness and view of the Salton Sea coming down from the Peninsular range.

    I like driving around California’s natural areas because you will always see at least a few things that makes you do a double take.

    In this case it was seeing random solitary RVs parked in the desert, based near the mountains ranges. Another was the highway into the Salton Sea with a landscape which was a mini version of what you see at the Petrified National Forest- layered orange canyons with a flat top.

    I kind of like nature to have some movement to it. Either the thing moves or I’m moving.
    So if the scale is vast, like Death Valley. I like driving through it. If it’s on a medium scale, I like walking through it. Red Rocks Canyon, Mammoth Lakes are great places to hike. Really, any place with water works.

    Red Rocks Canyon Trails is highly recommended. Very few people there. A profound 2 hour hike or longer if you want. Dramatic shifts in surfaces and sense of kinetics of mountains. Mostly sagebrush and cactus. Red columns mountains faces. Really beautiful. Another thing is, you can have the feeling of having the entire park to yourself.

  85. • LOL: Bashibuzuk
  86. @AP
    @dfordoom


    On the whole I find more beauty in artificial things than in natural things. To me a gothic cathedral is more beautiful than a mountain.
     
    I find that "organic-seeming" architecture made by people more connected to the natural world (such as the builders of the Gothic cathedrals) is more beautiful than modernist works made by people who are disconnected from the natural world.

    Replies: @songbird, @Hyperborean, @dfordoom, @Dmitry

    I find that “organic-seeming” architecture made by people more connected to the natural world (such as the builders of the Gothic cathedrals) is more beautiful than modernist works made by people who are disconnected from the natural world.

    If you liked the organic elements of Gothic architecture, have you looked more at Art Nouveau and Arts and Crafts?

    Though the two related movements had different perspectives towards the past – with Art Nouveau seeking to create a new world and Arts and Crafts embracing mediaeval and folk traditions – they both incorporate natural themes in their works very beautifully.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Hyperborean

    Yes, those are very nice also. Things took a wrong turn when people became too abstract and divorced from nature.

  87. @Hyperborean
    @AP


    I find that “organic-seeming” architecture made by people more connected to the natural world (such as the builders of the Gothic cathedrals) is more beautiful than modernist works made by people who are disconnected from the natural world.
     
    If you liked the organic elements of Gothic architecture, have you looked more at Art Nouveau and Arts and Crafts?

    Though the two related movements had different perspectives towards the past - with Art Nouveau seeking to create a new world and Arts and Crafts embracing mediaeval and folk traditions - they both incorporate natural themes in their works very beautifully.

    Replies: @AP

    Yes, those are very nice also. Things took a wrong turn when people became too abstract and divorced from nature.

  88. What is the correct atomic policy for atomophiles to advocate for, if one is realistic about dysgenics? Are ultra-high IQs only needed to design power plants? Not to build, or maintain them? Or deal with the waste products? Or should we be piling money into research now, for energy and rocket engines, to take advantage of the bigger smart fraction we have now?

    Or must an atomophile (who does not want to destroy the world) necessarily be a eugenicist?
    ______
    It strikes me that the ban on the spread of nuclear weapons is, whether by accident or design, possibly the only non-blankslatist policy advocated on an international level.

    • Replies: @That Would Be Telling
    @songbird


    What is the correct atomic policy for atomophiles to advocate for, if one is realistic about dysgenics? Are ultra-high IQs only needed to design power plants? Not to build, or maintain them? Or deal with the waste products?
     
    As I define it, only "ultra" high IQ to design them. To build to spec and run them, significant IQ, plus a culture that's compatible with the domain, which for example excludes Japan, realized long before Fukushima. To maintain, maybe not "ultra," but pretty high IQ for some of the problems that can arise. Waste products are fairly easy if you ignore recycling which you shouldn't, encase them in something really durable, bury and wait 600 years, by which time they'll be no more radioactive than the ore from which the fuel was mined.

    Societal and national capabilities for building them can be lost "overnight," see the US, and now France, or so I hear after it busted up its old organization that did that. Counties like Germany can also just go insane and believe everything can be powered by solar and windmills, and decide nuclear is too dangerous even though they're very much not Japanese.

    Replies: @Badger Down

  89. @Shortsword
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHgI6um1BMc


    Navalny survived the assassination attempt and set off a movement unlike any ever seen in history

     

    Replies: @Gerard.Gerard

    Sizeable chance that the image circulated a day before isn’t fake and his wife does have a German passport. Some groups are saying that the number on the document does match to a woman with the name Yuliya Navalny, in Germany. The number more important than the photo or signature for finding the truth here

  90. @128
    I guess if Counterpunch were to host an author who says that airplanes and cars are secret aliens from outer space that are a threat to Earth then the publication bears at least some responsibility for the quality of the works of the author? Does some webzine bear zero responsibility at all in terms of the quality of the articles and authors that it allows to be posted on its pages, that it as control over, with no obligation to police the quality of any articles posted? I mean if a webzine were to posts articles by an author about how penicillin for pets is a secret plot to turn their DNA into stone, should the owners of the webzine have some accountability with regards to the lack of the use of proper discretion in terms of which articles should be allowed to be posted? Are people categorically arguing as a policy that a website should not be able to exert some form of control over which articles by people it allows to be posted on its website, some of which may affect its reputation?

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @Mikhail, @reiner Tor

    On the matter of media buying into negatively inaccurate stereotypes along the lines of the Counterpunch piece I linked further up this thread:

    https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/2021/02/27/putting-artemi-panarin-situation-in-proper-perspective/

  91. Sad news to share with any music buffs out there. The very talented mandolist/violinist Peter Ostroushko recently passed away after trying to recover from a stroke that he had two years ago. He had a long and distinguished musical career, inluding session work with Bob Dylan, stints on Austin City Limits, work with several symphony orchestras around the world, a regular on the ‘Prairie Home Companion”, and the scoring of some of Ken Burns masterful documentaries regarding American history and culture. He even once played in a concert in Moscow. A mainstay in the Ukrainian-American community of the Twin Cities, he’ll surely be missed. On a personal note, he was one of the first persons to influence me in my spiritual walk with Jesus Christ. Vichna Pamiat Peter.

    https://www.startribune.com/peter-ostroushko-virtuoso-musician-with-everyone-from-bob-dylan-to-minnesota-orchestra-dies/600027280/

    • Thanks: Bashibuzuk, AP, Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @Mr. Hack

    Speaking of North American musicians of Ukrainian ancestry, have you ever listened to Sarah Jarosz ?



    https://youtu.be/hWqeMODlW0k

    A talented young lady.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    , @Mr. Hack
    @Mr. Hack

    Here's Peter being interviewed hanging out with a Russian guitar friend of his. He's at home, and there's a clip of him in his backyard garden inspecting his tomatoes and beets. There were a lot of bumper crop gardens in our Ukrainian neighborhood. I always had one going to0...

    https://youtu.be/0fZ6haOLbmg

    так як мед смакують!

    , @Gerard.Gerard
    @Mr. Hack

    FFS Mr Hack/ Oscar Pistorious ( the implication being that I am like Oscar Peterson and you the exact opposite) - can you stop with the fake news BS of "Ukrainian community. "

    All you are thinking is Banderetard 1940s/50s Nazi fugitive, CIA smuggled lowlifes who went to America.
    There has never existed such a concept as "Ukrainian community".... this is why hugely embarrassing for these cretins (as I have written before) there is not a single place in America named after the "homeland" of these fake communities. All there is.... Russian world places named after expatriate settled areas. In America all the other European settled communities have these places..... Khokholand has not been registered.

    What there was though is the Austrian intelligence created death cult that was created in the early 20th century that was called "Ukrainian nationalism"

    Ostroushko , or if not this ape then definitely his parents are experiencing incineration in hell at the moment for their disgusting Banderite evil activities.

    Why am I taking such a negative tone to this man?

    I don't like you working for Austrian intelligence so insidiously in supporting this sick cult dishonestly. Your using fake music sincerity as an outlet for khokholism. He wasn't even that good. It struck me once when you ascribed the ex US Open tennis second place Rusedski this fake ethnicity of "Ukrainian". I was thinking would Mr Hack ever refer to the very high quality and world-class tennis player Nikolai Davydenko as "Ukrainian"? Then I realised of course not (he is from Lugansk).

    Or the Immortal legend of Yuri Vlasov, a hero of mine, great mind and inspiration to Arnold Schwarzenegger ( who wrote brilliant tribute to him)? Of course not because the idea of Khokholism is a big fake.


    VIchna Pamiat
     
    "oh no" what could that mean ? ukrop are Russian are 2 "different languages" LOL.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  92. In St. Petersburg, anyone can freely vaccinate in shopping centers. There are no queues, the points accept hundreds of patients a day (although they are designed for twice as many). The situation is about the same in all cities of Russia. This is (to a large extent) the result of the anti-vaccination campaign that the media controlled by Washington conducted in Russia

    • Thanks: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @melanf

    Would that artwork be considered as HumansOfFlat?

    , @Gerard.Gerard
    @melanf

    Cmon melanf.... you are incorrect. I don't know what it is for SP, but for much of the country antibody tests are an absolute requirement for being allowed to take the vaccine(if have antibodies then can't vaccinate) . I think our vaccination rate is good, but antitel tests make it pointless to say are rates are low. Also don't forget that many doctors don't like mixing vaccines for different diseases so close to each in date.

    Look at the facts.... we had nearly 80 million people take the flu vaccine last year. That has to be one of the highest rates on the planet. We are a country of frequent mass international travel to exotic/nontemporate locations (places that require or recommend to take various vaccines before travel, which most of us do). We are a country completely different to all the other post-Soviet countries in the last 20 years in that our rates of vaccination, incidence of deaths or illnesses from the diseases like TB, Measles, polio etc, are significantly less exactly because we are less skeptic and more sophisticated on these issues than the other post- Soviet states (notably ukrop and Gruzia).
    Although 1 covid test does not mean 1 test per person.... we do have a very high rate of testing... which again shows that people can't be that reluctant to vaccinate if they are are so eager to be tested!


    result of the antivaccination campaign that the media controlled by Washington conducted in Russia
     
    Vaccination must be going great because advertising on TV or on street is negligible!


    This is funny because hopeless liberast scum in Russia have permanently and shamefully discredited themselves even worse than usual.... by nearly all running like rats to get the SputnikV vaccine from the "regime" BEFORE the Lancet endorsement of phase 3! I couldn't think of more idiotic, self-discrediting tactics from these clowns.

    Replies: @melanf

    , @Anatoly Karlin
    @melanf

    One persistent point that anti-vaxxers make and which I have no real response to though is why Putin hasn't publicly taken Sputnik V himself.

    I suppose that as a religious conservative boomer he might well be an anti-vaxxer himself although one who doesn't want to signal it.

    Replies: @melanf, @reiner Tor

  93. @melanf
    https://ss.metronews.ru/userfiles/materials/165/1655012/858x540.jpg

    In St. Petersburg, anyone can freely vaccinate in shopping centers. There are no queues, the points accept hundreds of patients a day (although they are designed for twice as many). The situation is about the same in all cities of Russia. This is (to a large extent) the result of the anti-vaccination campaign that the media controlled by Washington conducted in Russia

    https://gazeta.spb.ru/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/photo_2021-02-24_11-16-39.jpg

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Gerard.Gerard, @Anatoly Karlin

    Would that artwork be considered as HumansOfFlat?

  94. @Mr. Hack
    Sad news to share with any music buffs out there. The very talented mandolist/violinist Peter Ostroushko recently passed away after trying to recover from a stroke that he had two years ago. He had a long and distinguished musical career, inluding session work with Bob Dylan, stints on Austin City Limits, work with several symphony orchestras around the world, a regular on the 'Prairie Home Companion", and the scoring of some of Ken Burns masterful documentaries regarding American history and culture. He even once played in a concert in Moscow. A mainstay in the Ukrainian-American community of the Twin Cities, he'll surely be missed. On a personal note, he was one of the first persons to influence me in my spiritual walk with Jesus Christ. Vichna Pamiat Peter.

    https://www.startribune.com/peter-ostroushko-virtuoso-musician-with-everyone-from-bob-dylan-to-minnesota-orchestra-dies/600027280/

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @Mr. Hack, @Gerard.Gerard

    Speaking of North American musicians of Ukrainian ancestry, have you ever listened to Sarah Jarosz ?

    [MORE]

    A talented young lady.

    • Thanks: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Bashibuzuk

    Quite a strong powerful and melancholic voice. Reminds me a bit of a young Stevie Nicks...

  95. Diversity rhetoric is really incentivized within the West, so that it infects practically everything, to mind-numbing levels.

    But if you go to the Middle East, the incentives are different, and the rhetoric is all about diversifying the economy and planning for the future, when oil runs out. It is imbued into everything, seemingly to the same degree. Though, it appears more sensible at first, it is really not because it is also based on blank-slatism.

    I mean anyone who thinks the UAE will develop an indigenous space economy is bat-shit insane. Kenya has a better chance leasing space for someone to build a space elevator, putting a tax on everything going up, and demanding that Kenyans do all the loading, and catering work for what foreign workers are actually needed.

  96. @songbird
    @Mikel

    I agree with your sentiments about NYC, but I think it would be fair to call the natural outdoor environment rodent-infested.

    I mean, once I was sitting by a fire in the darkness and I heard a rustling behind me. I mistook it first for a mouse, and then a skunk, but it turned out to be close to a 40 lb porcupine (2nd biggest rodent in NA), and as I stood stock still, it came close enough to sniff the toe of my boot. Meanwhile, I remembered with horror, the tales of porcupines chewing up the boots that people left outside their tents to get at the salt on them.

    Replies: @AP

    My kids and I once spent about 15 minutes happily close to a porcupine peacefully munching on grass. We got close enough to touch it, but did not do so. Interesting how perceptions can be different – nothing horrible crossed our minds.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @AP


    Interesting how perceptions can be different – nothing horrible crossed our minds.
     
    Porcupines move fairly slowly, you should not be very worried, if you encounter them in daylight.

    However, they have bad eyesight. If you encounter them at night, there is a good chance, they will not be aware of you. I wasn't worried as I was observing it, expecting it to walk by me. I did not expect it to come close, and I mean close.

    The end of my feet were tilted upwards, so it could have easily fit my toe inside its mouth - I don't believe it was even aware that I was there - just my boot. Meanwhile, I thought it was too close for me to move suddenly. I am not talking about feet, but <1 inch, like kissing my foot close.

    You might not have an appreciation of the biting power of rodents, but I do. Rats can chew through concrete or steel. I've seen squirrels chew through old growth oak boards. And I've seen beavers chew through trees. One beaver nearly killed Lewis and Clark's dog. And porcupines can kill dogs with their quills - they work their way deeper, into the organs. Probably not great to have in your ankle, when you are in the middle of the woods.
    , @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    I thought of you and your young family last night after watching this very good Ukrainian fantasy film, 'The Stronghold". I was impressed with the overall quality of this film, the special effects were as good as anything Pixar/Disney/Marvel put out. The story line is good and the acting is adequate too. Family friendly that I think that your kids would greatly enjoy. You can watch it for free through YouTube on your large Samsung TV. The print is good too, if not 4K then definitely some kind of high definition.

    https://youtu.be/wsgKX21tbvM

  97. @Mr. Hack
    Sad news to share with any music buffs out there. The very talented mandolist/violinist Peter Ostroushko recently passed away after trying to recover from a stroke that he had two years ago. He had a long and distinguished musical career, inluding session work with Bob Dylan, stints on Austin City Limits, work with several symphony orchestras around the world, a regular on the 'Prairie Home Companion", and the scoring of some of Ken Burns masterful documentaries regarding American history and culture. He even once played in a concert in Moscow. A mainstay in the Ukrainian-American community of the Twin Cities, he'll surely be missed. On a personal note, he was one of the first persons to influence me in my spiritual walk with Jesus Christ. Vichna Pamiat Peter.

    https://www.startribune.com/peter-ostroushko-virtuoso-musician-with-everyone-from-bob-dylan-to-minnesota-orchestra-dies/600027280/

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @Mr. Hack, @Gerard.Gerard

    Here’s Peter being interviewed hanging out with a Russian guitar friend of his. He’s at home, and there’s a clip of him in his backyard garden inspecting his tomatoes and beets. There were a lot of bumper crop gardens in our Ukrainian neighborhood. I always had one going to0…

    так як мед смакують!

  98. @Bashibuzuk
    @Mr. Hack

    Speaking of North American musicians of Ukrainian ancestry, have you ever listened to Sarah Jarosz ?



    https://youtu.be/hWqeMODlW0k

    A talented young lady.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Quite a strong powerful and melancholic voice. Reminds me a bit of a young Stevie Nicks…

  99. @AP
    @songbird

    My kids and I once spent about 15 minutes happily close to a porcupine peacefully munching on grass. We got close enough to touch it, but did not do so. Interesting how perceptions can be different - nothing horrible crossed our minds.

    Replies: @songbird, @Mr. Hack

    Interesting how perceptions can be different – nothing horrible crossed our minds.

    Porcupines move fairly slowly, you should not be very worried, if you encounter them in daylight.

    However, they have bad eyesight. If you encounter them at night, there is a good chance, they will not be aware of you. I wasn’t worried as I was observing it, expecting it to walk by me. I did not expect it to come close, and I mean close.

    The end of my feet were tilted upwards, so it could have easily fit my toe inside its mouth – I don’t believe it was even aware that I was there – just my boot. Meanwhile, I thought it was too close for me to move suddenly. I am not talking about feet, but <1 inch, like kissing my foot close.

    You might not have an appreciation of the biting power of rodents, but I do. Rats can chew through concrete or steel. I've seen squirrels chew through old growth oak boards. And I've seen beavers chew through trees. One beaver nearly killed Lewis and Clark's dog. And porcupines can kill dogs with their quills – they work their way deeper, into the organs. Probably not great to have in your ankle, when you are in the middle of the woods.

  100. Ng Man-tat (Ngo Manh Dat in Vietnamese) is dead since yesterday due to cancer!
    He was the famous Uncle Tat character who was always with Stephen Chow in HK cinema.

    I loved this man’s movies with Stephen Chow, God of Cookery, Prince of Beggars. It’s really sad reading his career after his parting with Stephen Chow, such is the life of many famous stars in HK cinema.

    Rest in Peace!

  101. @songbird
    What is the correct atomic policy for atomophiles to advocate for, if one is realistic about dysgenics? Are ultra-high IQs only needed to design power plants? Not to build, or maintain them? Or deal with the waste products? Or should we be piling money into research now, for energy and rocket engines, to take advantage of the bigger smart fraction we have now?

    Or must an atomophile (who does not want to destroy the world) necessarily be a eugenicist?
    ______
    It strikes me that the ban on the spread of nuclear weapons is, whether by accident or design, possibly the only non-blankslatist policy advocated on an international level.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling

    What is the correct atomic policy for atomophiles to advocate for, if one is realistic about dysgenics? Are ultra-high IQs only needed to design power plants? Not to build, or maintain them? Or deal with the waste products?

    As I define it, only “ultra” high IQ to design them. To build to spec and run them, significant IQ, plus a culture that’s compatible with the domain, which for example excludes Japan, realized long before Fukushima. To maintain, maybe not “ultra,” but pretty high IQ for some of the problems that can arise. Waste products are fairly easy if you ignore recycling which you shouldn’t, encase them in something really durable, bury and wait 600 years, by which time they’ll be no more radioactive than the ore from which the fuel was mined.

    Societal and national capabilities for building them can be lost “overnight,” see the US, and now France, or so I hear after it busted up its old organization that did that. Counties like Germany can also just go insane and believe everything can be powered by solar and windmills, and decide nuclear is too dangerous even though they’re very much not Japanese.

    • Replies: @Badger Down
    @That Would Be Telling

    Ah Fukushima! They built the nuclear power plant on a river, you know. They later said they hadn't noticed the river was there. Four hundred tons of water every day!

  102. @g2k
    @Shortsword

    I know, but maybe they were just unlucky, there's lots of other small island nations that were able to lockdown long and hard enough to get covid cases to 0 and then completely cut themselves off from the rest of the world, so that they'd never have to lockdown again:

    https://jerseyeveningpost.com/news/2020/11/07/islanders-warned-that-jersey-could-be-heading-for-another-lockdown-as-active-cases-top-100/

    https://www.itv.com/news/channel/2021-01-23/guernsey-to-enter-lockdown

    https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2021-01-05/isle-of-man-re-enters-lockdown-after-fears-of-covid-spread-in-the-community

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-australia-56035668


    only a covidiot would oppose such a strategy, what's stopping the USA and Russia? The uk has just extended lockdown by another 4 months despite vaccinating nearly a third of the population.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @g2k

    only a covidiot would oppose such a [total isolation, lockdown till it’s died out, then normal life except for the isolation] strategy, what’s stopping the USA and Russia? The uk has just extended lockdown by another 4 months despite vaccinating nearly a third of the population.

    Indeed, but for the West’s ruling trash globalism and importing hordes of low IQ Third Worlders is a religion you might say; I don’t know about Russia. As for the U.K., they’re trying an experiment where they give everyone a single jab ASAP, with the booster at many as 12 weeks from them. Not supported by the mRNA companies which simply didn’t test that regimen, but there’s a good chance this is mostly harmless, and could be much better for the AZ/Oxford disappointment. Which means a large fraction of that nearly one third aren’t yet properly vaccinated.

    • Replies: @g2k
    @That Would Be Telling

    Oh dear, perhaps you ought to have clicked the links. All those examples are countries that have attempted such a thing, declared success only to have outbreaks and subsequent lockdowns again,... and again......and again. They've also painted themselves into a corner as the likely endgame of all of this for most of the world is that corona will become endemic, defanged by vaccines quite soon in developed countries, a few years away in the rest; it's going to be politically very difficult for them to open. Quite frankly, any benefit from reduced immigration to developed countries in such a scenario is more than counted by citizens of those countries having less freedom to travel than a medieval peasant (Australia actually has commie exit visas).

  103. @dfordoom
    @AaronB


    Most people are not satisfied with their way of life, so to strengthen their faith in it they insist everyone live like them. People who don’t live like them threaten them.
     
    Yeah. It hasn't always been the case, certainly not in every society, but it has been a characteristic feature of western civilisation since the 19th century.

    It's also a characteristic feature of Puritanism and Calvinism. Such people know that they're the Elect and they know they're good and righteous but they're miserable and they're enraged that all those wicked sinners are enjoying themselves. They must be stopped.

    Puritans love misery, but mostly they love inflicting misery on others.

    Since SJWs and Wokeists are a mutated variety of Puritan they share this mindset. They know they're super-virtuous but they're not really happy and they're angry at the thought that the non-virtuous might be happy.

    People think they're doing what they want to do but they're still unhappy and dissatisfied, so they're threatened by anybody who has made different choices. And they get angry if those people who have made different choices seem happy.

    Replies: @Not Only Wrathful, @Coconuts, @sher singh

    Since SJWs and Wokeists are a mutated variety of Puritan they share this mindset. They know they’re super-virtuous but they’re not really happy and they’re angry at the thought that the non-virtuous might be happy.

    One way in which SJWs are mutated puritans is that they have absorbed a certain amount of ‘classic’ Marxist and Hegelian beliefs. One of these is that the existence, and happiness, fulfillment etc. of any human individual is dependent on the collectivity and cannot exist or be realised outside it. Similar to the paraphrase of Hegel ideas that the individual is to the state as the eye is to the human head and body, if the eye is severed from its parent body it is dead and cannot function.

    This is one reason they are preoccupied by controlling everyone’s ideas and behaviour, because they believe it is the only way in which the correct social/collective conditions can be created for anyone to be fully happy. I suspect they pick up ideas like this through the literature and ideological material they study, it is an interesting aspect to SJWism that doesn’t seem to get the attention it should.

  104. @songbird
    All this talk of maximizing the phenotype IQ of blacks with expensive interventions (such as I believe even Molyneux advocates for) seems rather silly, IMO. It is probably impossible to move g, even if IQ can be nudged a tiny bit. The real efforts should be put into trying to modify black behavior. This would not necessarily be too hard or expensive. For example, get the media to stop valorizing them.
    ___
    Ages ago, I recall reading a Nazi-era essay critical of the Superman comic. I wonder what Nazis would say about the rumored new movie to be produced. Directed by JJ Abrahms and written by Ta Nehisi Coates, and possibly starring a black Superman.

    Replies: @Coconuts

    Ages ago, I recall reading a Nazi-era essay critical of the Superman comic. I wonder what Nazis would say about the rumored new movie to be produced. Directed by JJ Abrahms and written by Ta Nehisi Coates, and possibly starring a black Superman.

    It would be something like: We told you this is what they will do and what your children will end up watching.

    • Agree: songbird, reiner Tor
  105. @Mr. Hack
    Sad news to share with any music buffs out there. The very talented mandolist/violinist Peter Ostroushko recently passed away after trying to recover from a stroke that he had two years ago. He had a long and distinguished musical career, inluding session work with Bob Dylan, stints on Austin City Limits, work with several symphony orchestras around the world, a regular on the 'Prairie Home Companion", and the scoring of some of Ken Burns masterful documentaries regarding American history and culture. He even once played in a concert in Moscow. A mainstay in the Ukrainian-American community of the Twin Cities, he'll surely be missed. On a personal note, he was one of the first persons to influence me in my spiritual walk with Jesus Christ. Vichna Pamiat Peter.

    https://www.startribune.com/peter-ostroushko-virtuoso-musician-with-everyone-from-bob-dylan-to-minnesota-orchestra-dies/600027280/

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @Mr. Hack, @Gerard.Gerard

    FFS Mr Hack/ Oscar Pistorious ( the implication being that I am like Oscar Peterson and you the exact opposite) – can you stop with the fake news BS of “Ukrainian community. ”

    All you are thinking is Banderetard 1940s/50s Nazi fugitive, CIA smuggled lowlifes who went to America.
    There has never existed such a concept as “Ukrainian community”…. this is why hugely embarrassing for these cretins (as I have written before) there is not a single place in America named after the “homeland” of these fake communities. All there is…. Russian world places named after expatriate settled areas. In America all the other European settled communities have these places….. Khokholand has not been registered.

    What there was though is the Austrian intelligence created death cult that was created in the early 20th century that was called “Ukrainian nationalism”

    Ostroushko , or if not this ape then definitely his parents are experiencing incineration in hell at the moment for their disgusting Banderite evil activities.

    Why am I taking such a negative tone to this man?

    I don’t like you working for Austrian intelligence so insidiously in supporting this sick cult dishonestly. Your using fake music sincerity as an outlet for khokholism. He wasn’t even that good. It struck me once when you ascribed the ex US Open tennis second place Rusedski this fake ethnicity of “Ukrainian”. I was thinking would Mr Hack ever refer to the very high quality and world-class tennis player Nikolai Davydenko as “Ukrainian”? Then I realised of course not (he is from Lugansk).

    Or the Immortal legend of Yuri Vlasov, a hero of mine, great mind and inspiration to Arnold Schwarzenegger ( who wrote brilliant tribute to him)? Of course not because the idea of Khokholism is a big fake.

    VIchna Pamiat

    “oh no” what could that mean ? ukrop are Russian are 2 “different languages” LOL.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Gerard.Gerard

    You're very sick in the mind and soul, Gerard. Peter Ostroushko's father fought valiantly for the Soviet army during WWII, and lost a leg fighting at Stalingrad against the Germans. There, do you feel completely foolish now? You should, you heartless and stupid SOB.

    Replies: @Gerard.Gerard

  106. @melanf
    https://ss.metronews.ru/userfiles/materials/165/1655012/858x540.jpg

    In St. Petersburg, anyone can freely vaccinate in shopping centers. There are no queues, the points accept hundreds of patients a day (although they are designed for twice as many). The situation is about the same in all cities of Russia. This is (to a large extent) the result of the anti-vaccination campaign that the media controlled by Washington conducted in Russia

    https://gazeta.spb.ru/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/photo_2021-02-24_11-16-39.jpg

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Gerard.Gerard, @Anatoly Karlin

    Cmon melanf…. you are incorrect. I don’t know what it is for SP, but for much of the country antibody tests are an absolute requirement for being allowed to take the vaccine(if have antibodies then can’t vaccinate) . I think our vaccination rate is good, but antitel tests make it pointless to say are rates are low. Also don’t forget that many doctors don’t like mixing vaccines for different diseases so close to each in date.

    Look at the facts…. we had nearly 80 million people take the flu vaccine last year. That has to be one of the highest rates on the planet. We are a country of frequent mass international travel to exotic/nontemporate locations (places that require or recommend to take various vaccines before travel, which most of us do). We are a country completely different to all the other post-Soviet countries in the last 20 years in that our rates of vaccination, incidence of deaths or illnesses from the diseases like TB, Measles, polio etc, are significantly less exactly because we are less skeptic and more sophisticated on these issues than the other post- Soviet states (notably ukrop and Gruzia).
    Although 1 covid test does not mean 1 test per person…. we do have a very high rate of testing… which again shows that people can’t be that reluctant to vaccinate if they are are so eager to be tested!

    result of the antivaccination campaign that the media controlled by Washington conducted in Russia

    Vaccination must be going great because advertising on TV or on street is negligible!

    This is funny because hopeless liberast scum in Russia have permanently and shamefully discredited themselves even worse than usual…. by nearly all running like rats to get the SputnikV vaccine from the “regime” BEFORE the Lancet endorsement of phase 3! I couldn’t think of more idiotic, self-discrediting tactics from these clowns.

    • Replies: @melanf
    @Gerard.Gerard


    Cmon melanf…. you are incorrect. I don’t know what it is for SP, but for much of the country antibody tests are an absolute requirement for being allowed to take the vaccine(if have antibodies then can’t vaccinate) .
     
    Where is this required? When I was vaccinated, they asked me only my last name - and nothing else (they didn't even require documents). People I know have been vaccinated without any tests. From other parts of the country, people write the same thing - tests are not required. Here is the official instruction:
    "PCR testing before vaccination is carried out only if there is documented contact with a COVID-19 patient and the person has any clinical manifestations of the disease"

    vaccination is slow because people are slow to go to vaccination centers, not because of the tests

    Replies: @AP, @Gerard.Gerard

  107. Anyone know if there is a Chinese aphorism something like “an empty house collapses the fastest?” I heard it in a Chinese movie, and thought it was pretty clever, but ever since it has been bothering me, like a tune stuck in my head, just to know whether they wrote it for the movie or whether it is an old saying.

    It had a context in the movie, but here is what I was thinking: a regular fire drives out moisture in the air. Without the fire, the beams get damp and rot, and so collapse.

    Use to happen regularly with small cottages in Ireland. And I recall reading a book by a Tiananmen agitator, where he afterward escaped into the countryside and had to have a fire going for three days to drive out the damp of the uninhabited cottage he occupied.

  108. @AP
    @dfordoom


    On the whole I find more beauty in artificial things than in natural things. To me a gothic cathedral is more beautiful than a mountain.
     
    I find that "organic-seeming" architecture made by people more connected to the natural world (such as the builders of the Gothic cathedrals) is more beautiful than modernist works made by people who are disconnected from the natural world.

    Replies: @songbird, @Hyperborean, @dfordoom, @Dmitry

    I find that “organic-seeming” architecture made by people more connected to the natural world (such as the builders of the Gothic cathedrals) is more beautiful than modernist works made by people who are disconnected from the natural world.

    That’s a valid preference, although it’s not my preference.

    I see nature as ugly and depressing and I see art as a valiant attempt to create beauty in an ugly world. At least that’s how I see the function of art.

    Of course the artistic establishment stopped believing in any kind of beauty a hundred years ago.

    But some modernist architects (and I emphasise some) did still manage to create beauty. Most just created ugliness, but not all.

    I don’t dislike “organic-seeming” architecture. An artist (or an architect) can take the ugliness of nature and create something beautiful out of it.

    Natural things are more beautiful when the chaos of nature is moulded into some kind of order. Forests are ugly, but formal gardens are beautiful.

    I don’t subscribe to the Cult of Nature, which I consider to be one of the many pernicious legacies of the Romantic Movement.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @dfordoom


    I see nature as ugly and depressing
     
    Few things are more beautiful than a mature forest. I don't think anything humans have ever created can compare with that.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    , @AP
    @dfordoom


    I see nature as ugly and depressing and I see art as a valiant attempt to create beauty in an ugly world. At least that’s how I see the function of art.
     
    To each his own. Thinking of the world as nan essentially ugly place seems rather depressing, though.

    Natural things are more beautiful when the chaos of nature is moulded into some kind of order. Forests are ugly, but formal gardens are beautiful.

     

    People have the capacity to make nature more beautiful but how can one deny the beauty of a mature forest with massive trees, the smell of pines or maples (particularly after a rain), etc.?

    This is in northern New England:

    https://www.planetware.com/photos-large/USNH/usa-new-hampshire-the-basin.jpg

    https://cdn.architecturendesign.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/AD-The-34-Most-Beautifu-Forests-In-The-World-31.jpg

    The old formal gardens were made by people who were still connected to nature, hence their beauty.

    I don’t subscribe to the Cult of Nature, which I consider to be one of the many pernicious legacies of the Romantic Movement
     
    This is a very good point. But the Cult of Reason also lacked a certain balance...

    Replies: @melanf, @dfordoom, @SafeNow

    , @songbird
    @dfordoom


    Forests are ugly
     
    Cathedrals of light.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    , @Not Only Wrathful
    @dfordoom

    The name dfordoom is apposite then! Sorry that must be tough

  109. @dfordoom
    @AP


    I find that “organic-seeming” architecture made by people more connected to the natural world (such as the builders of the Gothic cathedrals) is more beautiful than modernist works made by people who are disconnected from the natural world.
     
    That's a valid preference, although it's not my preference.

    I see nature as ugly and depressing and I see art as a valiant attempt to create beauty in an ugly world. At least that's how I see the function of art.

    Of course the artistic establishment stopped believing in any kind of beauty a hundred years ago.

    But some modernist architects (and I emphasise some) did still manage to create beauty. Most just created ugliness, but not all.

    I don't dislike “organic-seeming” architecture. An artist (or an architect) can take the ugliness of nature and create something beautiful out of it.

    Natural things are more beautiful when the chaos of nature is moulded into some kind of order. Forests are ugly, but formal gardens are beautiful.

    I don't subscribe to the Cult of Nature, which I consider to be one of the many pernicious legacies of the Romantic Movement.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @AP, @songbird, @Not Only Wrathful

    I see nature as ugly and depressing

    Few things are more beautiful than a mature forest. I don’t think anything humans have ever created can compare with that.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Bashibuzuk

    I don’t think that we need to choose; they are beautiful in different ways. It’s also clear that without nature there could be no mankind and thus no art whatsoever, so it seems silly to choose art over nature, but I digress.

  110. @Gerard.Gerard
    @Mr. Hack

    FFS Mr Hack/ Oscar Pistorious ( the implication being that I am like Oscar Peterson and you the exact opposite) - can you stop with the fake news BS of "Ukrainian community. "

    All you are thinking is Banderetard 1940s/50s Nazi fugitive, CIA smuggled lowlifes who went to America.
    There has never existed such a concept as "Ukrainian community".... this is why hugely embarrassing for these cretins (as I have written before) there is not a single place in America named after the "homeland" of these fake communities. All there is.... Russian world places named after expatriate settled areas. In America all the other European settled communities have these places..... Khokholand has not been registered.

    What there was though is the Austrian intelligence created death cult that was created in the early 20th century that was called "Ukrainian nationalism"

    Ostroushko , or if not this ape then definitely his parents are experiencing incineration in hell at the moment for their disgusting Banderite evil activities.

    Why am I taking such a negative tone to this man?

    I don't like you working for Austrian intelligence so insidiously in supporting this sick cult dishonestly. Your using fake music sincerity as an outlet for khokholism. He wasn't even that good. It struck me once when you ascribed the ex US Open tennis second place Rusedski this fake ethnicity of "Ukrainian". I was thinking would Mr Hack ever refer to the very high quality and world-class tennis player Nikolai Davydenko as "Ukrainian"? Then I realised of course not (he is from Lugansk).

    Or the Immortal legend of Yuri Vlasov, a hero of mine, great mind and inspiration to Arnold Schwarzenegger ( who wrote brilliant tribute to him)? Of course not because the idea of Khokholism is a big fake.


    VIchna Pamiat
     
    "oh no" what could that mean ? ukrop are Russian are 2 "different languages" LOL.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    You’re very sick in the mind and soul, Gerard. Peter Ostroushko’s father fought valiantly for the Soviet army during WWII, and lost a leg fighting at Stalingrad against the Germans. There, do you feel completely foolish now? You should, you heartless and stupid SOB.

    • Replies: @Gerard.Gerard
    @Mr. Hack

    I thought he was 1940s/50s Bandera diaspora Mr Hack. Happy to apologise and discipline myself, IF you can adequately show what you say is correct. Definite 40s/50s emigration to US of his family, standard Galician views did suggest to me no Red Army connection, but if wrong then I'm wrong.

    Even if not, you are too harsh..... I was going to say I could play the mandolin with my feet superior to Peter with his hands, but because of my inate humanity I respectfully decided to not make that comment!

    BTW saddened to hear about Chick Corea - a true great. The talented Ostroushko does appear to be a pleasant guy, if you knew him.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  111. Few things are more beautiful than a mature forest. I don’t think anything humans have ever created can compare with that.

    It’s a cultural preference. Before the Romantic Movement came along nobody would have agreed with you.

    You’re certainly entitled to your cultural preference. I like the fact that people have different cultural preferences. It makes life interesting.

    When it comes to aesthetics there is no objective truth.

    We’ve been heavily indoctrinated into the Romantic viewpoint on nature for the last couple of centuries. That doesn’t make the Romantic viewpoint wrong, but it doesn’t make it right either. There are differing aesthetic tastes and we should never assume that the aesthetic taste that happens to be culturally dominant at the moment is some kind of eternal truth.

    The aesthetic tastes of westerners prior to the rise of the Romantic Movement were so radically different from ours that it is difficult even to comprehend such a viewpoint, but their tastes were just as valid as ours. Just as the aesthetics of other civilisations (such as Japanese civilisation) are radically different from ours but just as valid.

    I have no desire to convince you that my aesthetic tastes are superior to yours. They just happen to be different.

    • Disagree: Daniel Chieh
    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @dfordoom


    It’s a cultural preference. Before the Romantic Movement came along nobody would have agreed with you.
     
    It has nothing cultural about it, I come from the Soviet cultural environment - a technicist culture if there ever was one, it is just that I am able to appreciate the beauty and complexity of the natural patterns and shapes.

    One should be aware that a single living cell is complex enough that it takes a high computational capacity to even attempt to simulate that.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/07/to-model-the-simplest-microbe-in-the-world-you-need-128-computers/260198/

    People think that living things are simple and boring, but that's because they are used to live in human-built concrete jungle.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    , @utu
    @dfordoom

    "It’s a cultural preference. Before the Romantic Movement came along nobody would have agreed with you." - You are full of it. I could say that communist and Jewish anti nature materialism is talking through you. I could say that you would like to pave up with asphalt the all of Siberia if it was up to you. I could say that "American pastoral" by Philip Roth is a good exemplification of Jewish fear and apprehension of nature because for Jews nature is goyish.. But I won't. Instead I will say that you have no original thought of your own. You are a pretentious bore.

    Replies: @dfordoom, @Dmitry

    , @EldnahYm
    @dfordoom


    When it comes to aesthetics there is no objective truth.
     
    This claim seems dubious to me. People's perception of beauty seems to at least be partly objective. For example is the appreciation of symmetry, which is an objective, mathematical principle.
  112. @Mr. Hack
    @Gerard.Gerard

    You're very sick in the mind and soul, Gerard. Peter Ostroushko's father fought valiantly for the Soviet army during WWII, and lost a leg fighting at Stalingrad against the Germans. There, do you feel completely foolish now? You should, you heartless and stupid SOB.

    Replies: @Gerard.Gerard

    I thought he was 1940s/50s Bandera diaspora Mr Hack. Happy to apologise and discipline myself, IF you can adequately show what you say is correct. Definite 40s/50s emigration to US of his family, standard Galician views did suggest to me no Red Army connection, but if wrong then I’m wrong.

    Even if not, you are too harsh….. I was going to say I could play the mandolin with my feet superior to Peter with his hands, but because of my inate humanity I respectfully decided to not make that comment!

    BTW saddened to hear about Chick Corea – a true great. The talented Ostroushko does appear to be a pleasant guy, if you knew him.

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Gerard.Gerard

    https://youtu.be/JcMFxKtVY5k

    You can play the mandolin better than this? You really are the consummate BS artist.

    Replies: @Gerard.Gerard

  113. @dfordoom
    @AP


    I find that “organic-seeming” architecture made by people more connected to the natural world (such as the builders of the Gothic cathedrals) is more beautiful than modernist works made by people who are disconnected from the natural world.
     
    That's a valid preference, although it's not my preference.

    I see nature as ugly and depressing and I see art as a valiant attempt to create beauty in an ugly world. At least that's how I see the function of art.

    Of course the artistic establishment stopped believing in any kind of beauty a hundred years ago.

    But some modernist architects (and I emphasise some) did still manage to create beauty. Most just created ugliness, but not all.

    I don't dislike “organic-seeming” architecture. An artist (or an architect) can take the ugliness of nature and create something beautiful out of it.

    Natural things are more beautiful when the chaos of nature is moulded into some kind of order. Forests are ugly, but formal gardens are beautiful.

    I don't subscribe to the Cult of Nature, which I consider to be one of the many pernicious legacies of the Romantic Movement.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @AP, @songbird, @Not Only Wrathful

    I see nature as ugly and depressing and I see art as a valiant attempt to create beauty in an ugly world. At least that’s how I see the function of art.

    To each his own. Thinking of the world as nan essentially ugly place seems rather depressing, though.

    Natural things are more beautiful when the chaos of nature is moulded into some kind of order. Forests are ugly, but formal gardens are beautiful.

    People have the capacity to make nature more beautiful but how can one deny the beauty of a mature forest with massive trees, the smell of pines or maples (particularly after a rain), etc.?

    This is in northern New England:

    The old formal gardens were made by people who were still connected to nature, hence their beauty.

    I don’t subscribe to the Cult of Nature, which I consider to be one of the many pernicious legacies of the Romantic Movement

    This is a very good point. But the Cult of Reason also lacked a certain balance…

    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Thanks: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @melanf
    @AP

    Man and Nature
    https://d.radikal.ru/d15/2102/b4/dacb93955379.png

    , @dfordoom
    @AP


    Thinking of the world as nan essentially ugly place seems rather depressing, though.
     
    I don't think that way. I think of nature as ugly but I can find lots of beauty in the man-made environment. Some people can't. I'm not accusing you of this, but there are people who just have a knee-jerk reaction against man-made environments. I have a knee-jerk reaction against natural environments!

    The old formal gardens were made by people who were still connected to nature, hence their beauty.
     
    They were still connected to nature, but not in any kind of modern sense. They saw nature as something that needed to be tamed, controlled and reduced to order. Being close to nature they recognised its dark side. Many people today romanticise Nature because they're not compelled to confront it the way people of the past were.


    I don’t subscribe to the Cult of Nature, which I consider to be one of the many pernicious legacies of the Romantic Movement
     
    This is a very good point. But the Cult of Reason also lacked a certain balance…
     
    Yes. There's room for both approaches. I take things a bit far in one direction but I have no problems with people who tend in the other direction.

    Diversity is our strength.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    , @SafeNow
    @AP

    Coleridge’s advice to his son Hartley: A life close to nature, my boy!
    (Midnight Frost among other works contains such advice.)

    (Forgive me, Harvard and the rest of the “refreshed”-literature crowd, for
    the reference to Coleridge.)

    Speaking of nature, Peggy Noonan, in today’s Wall Street Journal op-ed, wrote that New York City has “the greatest” parks. I would have thought it might be Yellowstone, or Yosemite, or thousands of other parks that are not Central Park. It would be difficult to find a better example of progressive close-mindedness and contempt for deplorables.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @AP

  114. @dfordoom

    Few things are more beautiful than a mature forest. I don’t think anything humans have ever created can compare with that.
     
    It's a cultural preference. Before the Romantic Movement came along nobody would have agreed with you.

    You're certainly entitled to your cultural preference. I like the fact that people have different cultural preferences. It makes life interesting.

    When it comes to aesthetics there is no objective truth.

    We've been heavily indoctrinated into the Romantic viewpoint on nature for the last couple of centuries. That doesn't make the Romantic viewpoint wrong, but it doesn't make it right either. There are differing aesthetic tastes and we should never assume that the aesthetic taste that happens to be culturally dominant at the moment is some kind of eternal truth.

    The aesthetic tastes of westerners prior to the rise of the Romantic Movement were so radically different from ours that it is difficult even to comprehend such a viewpoint, but their tastes were just as valid as ours. Just as the aesthetics of other civilisations (such as Japanese civilisation) are radically different from ours but just as valid.

    I have no desire to convince you that my aesthetic tastes are superior to yours. They just happen to be different.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @utu, @EldnahYm

    It’s a cultural preference. Before the Romantic Movement came along nobody would have agreed with you.

    It has nothing cultural about it, I come from the Soviet cultural environment – a technicist culture if there ever was one, it is just that I am able to appreciate the beauty and complexity of the natural patterns and shapes.

    One should be aware that a single living cell is complex enough that it takes a high computational capacity to even attempt to simulate that.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/07/to-model-the-simplest-microbe-in-the-world-you-need-128-computers/260198/

    People think that living things are simple and boring, but that’s because they are used to live in human-built concrete jungle.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Bashibuzuk


    It has nothing cultural about it, I come from the Soviet cultural environment – a technicist culture if there ever was one, it is just that I am able to appreciate the beauty and complexity of the natural patterns and shapes.
     
    It's still a cultural influence, whether you accept the prevailing cultural view or react against it.

    I'm certainly aware that I'm to some extent reacting against the modern western Cult of Nature. I also admit to being a contrarian. Whatever the prevailing view is, I'm going to regard it with scepticism.

    Replies: @Morton's toes

  115. @Gerard.Gerard
    @melanf

    Cmon melanf.... you are incorrect. I don't know what it is for SP, but for much of the country antibody tests are an absolute requirement for being allowed to take the vaccine(if have antibodies then can't vaccinate) . I think our vaccination rate is good, but antitel tests make it pointless to say are rates are low. Also don't forget that many doctors don't like mixing vaccines for different diseases so close to each in date.

    Look at the facts.... we had nearly 80 million people take the flu vaccine last year. That has to be one of the highest rates on the planet. We are a country of frequent mass international travel to exotic/nontemporate locations (places that require or recommend to take various vaccines before travel, which most of us do). We are a country completely different to all the other post-Soviet countries in the last 20 years in that our rates of vaccination, incidence of deaths or illnesses from the diseases like TB, Measles, polio etc, are significantly less exactly because we are less skeptic and more sophisticated on these issues than the other post- Soviet states (notably ukrop and Gruzia).
    Although 1 covid test does not mean 1 test per person.... we do have a very high rate of testing... which again shows that people can't be that reluctant to vaccinate if they are are so eager to be tested!


    result of the antivaccination campaign that the media controlled by Washington conducted in Russia
     
    Vaccination must be going great because advertising on TV or on street is negligible!


    This is funny because hopeless liberast scum in Russia have permanently and shamefully discredited themselves even worse than usual.... by nearly all running like rats to get the SputnikV vaccine from the "regime" BEFORE the Lancet endorsement of phase 3! I couldn't think of more idiotic, self-discrediting tactics from these clowns.

    Replies: @melanf

    Cmon melanf…. you are incorrect. I don’t know what it is for SP, but for much of the country antibody tests are an absolute requirement for being allowed to take the vaccine(if have antibodies then can’t vaccinate) .

    Where is this required? When I was vaccinated, they asked me only my last name – and nothing else (they didn’t even require documents). People I know have been vaccinated without any tests. From other parts of the country, people write the same thing – tests are not required. Here is the official instruction:
    PCR testing before vaccination is carried out only if there is documented contact with a COVID-19 patient and the person has any clinical manifestations of the disease

    vaccination is slow because people are slow to go to vaccination centers, not because of the tests

    • Replies: @AP
    @melanf

    Perhaps it depends on location. My in-laws were tested prior to vaccination, and found to their surprise that they had antibodies. The slight cold they had a couple of months earlier, that they dismissed due to mildness of symptoms, turned out to have been Covid.

    Replies: @melanf

    , @Gerard.Gerard
    @melanf

    Well, my experience is different-although my region had relatively low deliveries of the vaccine until 3 weeks before now. I am probably biased from the situation 1 month before in my region (antitel test required) when I was motivated to get first dose in clinic but not, just as you say, applicable now - and certainly not to the places of higher availability as SP and Moscow.

    I would say that rules say its still recommended to get antibody test before and to not do vaccine if already had illness. Did they not at least ask if you have had an antitel test?

    Still, the following things are relevant:

    1. Very high rate of flu vaccinations in 2020 (75M+),which I would be very surprised if other white countries have a higher rate, does not indicate skepticism

    2. Seeing or hearing absolutely zero advertising encouraging to get SputnikV vaccine on road, TV, radio, papers, at work or anywhere does suggest the government at not seeing low vaccinations level

    3. If you have antibodies or already had the disease then it is a complete waste of resources and time to get the vaccine for the next 4-5 months

    4. Different vaccines like flu are recommended to not mix with coronavirus for time gap of less than 2 months

    5. Next season for coronavirus is expected only in autumn (though would need to receive both doses by 4-6 weeks before then to have developed immunity), so there is no rush

    6. For my western friends, antibody tests seem to be nonexistent, at least compared to us.

    7. You can add in weather and more places open in Russia compared to most western countries (bars, shops, schools.... that because they are unused are now places for vaccination in west) as reasons for illusion of non vaccinations in Russia. OK, your experience is in big shopping centre an

  116. @melanf
    @Gerard.Gerard


    Cmon melanf…. you are incorrect. I don’t know what it is for SP, but for much of the country antibody tests are an absolute requirement for being allowed to take the vaccine(if have antibodies then can’t vaccinate) .
     
    Where is this required? When I was vaccinated, they asked me only my last name - and nothing else (they didn't even require documents). People I know have been vaccinated without any tests. From other parts of the country, people write the same thing - tests are not required. Here is the official instruction:
    "PCR testing before vaccination is carried out only if there is documented contact with a COVID-19 patient and the person has any clinical manifestations of the disease"

    vaccination is slow because people are slow to go to vaccination centers, not because of the tests

    Replies: @AP, @Gerard.Gerard

    Perhaps it depends on location. My in-laws were tested prior to vaccination, and found to their surprise that they had antibodies. The slight cold they had a couple of months earlier, that they dismissed due to mildness of symptoms, turned out to have been Covid.

    • Replies: @melanf
    @AP


    Perhaps it depends on location. My in-laws were tested prior to vaccination, and found to their surprise that they had antibodies.
     
    And when were they vaccinated? Initially, it was supposed to vaccinate only those who do not have antibodies (to save the vaccine). now there are many more vaccines than those who want to be vaccinated and vaccinate everyone who wants to be vaccinated
  117. I read an interesting article about mask-wearing in Japan. It has been highly prevalent since, well, since the pandemic 100 years ago. The reason for mask acceptance that surprised me the most: The Japanese tend to be introverted, and often they enjoy a feeling of being socially walled-off inside one’s mask. I can imagine how, packed into my sardine-can subway car, aside from feeling protected from pathogens a few inches away, I would also feel psychologically protected.

    By the way, here in California, a large cohort of people do not wear the mask over the nose. I was curious whether this is the case in Japan, and so I performed an image search. My conclusion is that not wearing the mask over the nose is virtually unknown.

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
  118. @AP
    @melanf

    Perhaps it depends on location. My in-laws were tested prior to vaccination, and found to their surprise that they had antibodies. The slight cold they had a couple of months earlier, that they dismissed due to mildness of symptoms, turned out to have been Covid.

    Replies: @melanf

    Perhaps it depends on location. My in-laws were tested prior to vaccination, and found to their surprise that they had antibodies.

    And when were they vaccinated? Initially, it was supposed to vaccinate only those who do not have antibodies (to save the vaccine). now there are many more vaccines than those who want to be vaccinated and vaccinate everyone who wants to be vaccinated

  119. @Gerard.Gerard
    @Mr. Hack

    I thought he was 1940s/50s Bandera diaspora Mr Hack. Happy to apologise and discipline myself, IF you can adequately show what you say is correct. Definite 40s/50s emigration to US of his family, standard Galician views did suggest to me no Red Army connection, but if wrong then I'm wrong.

    Even if not, you are too harsh..... I was going to say I could play the mandolin with my feet superior to Peter with his hands, but because of my inate humanity I respectfully decided to not make that comment!

    BTW saddened to hear about Chick Corea - a true great. The talented Ostroushko does appear to be a pleasant guy, if you knew him.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    You can play the mandolin better than this? You really are the consummate BS artist.

    • Replies: @Gerard.Gerard
    @Mr. Hack

    Er,Mr Hack/ Elephant man....the proof? Where is evidence Ostroushko's father was a hero at Sralingrad and not a POS UPA swine?

    Proof may be too difficult to ask but reliable anecdote of who, what and where you heard this..... and where exactly Ostroushko originate from.


    Remember Mr Hack.....NO Austrian intelligence disinfo BS, and no Romanian gypsy folktales ( your breed of Khokholism)

    Don't project the mir/svet fantasist retard AP when talking about "consummate BS artist", I was mainly referring to my piano playing, which includes successfully playing the Chopin Waterfall Etude in recent days. I listened on YouTube to the obscene faggot Lang Lang play the Ossia cadenza in Rakhmaninov 3rd Piano Concerto..... I've never been so insulted ever-his behaviour an absolute disgrace! It provoked me into trying to play that part of the Concerto, but did not get anywhere!

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  120. @AP
    @dfordoom


    I see nature as ugly and depressing and I see art as a valiant attempt to create beauty in an ugly world. At least that’s how I see the function of art.
     
    To each his own. Thinking of the world as nan essentially ugly place seems rather depressing, though.

    Natural things are more beautiful when the chaos of nature is moulded into some kind of order. Forests are ugly, but formal gardens are beautiful.

     

    People have the capacity to make nature more beautiful but how can one deny the beauty of a mature forest with massive trees, the smell of pines or maples (particularly after a rain), etc.?

    This is in northern New England:

    https://www.planetware.com/photos-large/USNH/usa-new-hampshire-the-basin.jpg

    https://cdn.architecturendesign.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/AD-The-34-Most-Beautifu-Forests-In-The-World-31.jpg

    The old formal gardens were made by people who were still connected to nature, hence their beauty.

    I don’t subscribe to the Cult of Nature, which I consider to be one of the many pernicious legacies of the Romantic Movement
     
    This is a very good point. But the Cult of Reason also lacked a certain balance...

    Replies: @melanf, @dfordoom, @SafeNow

    Man and Nature

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
  121. @dfordoom

    Few things are more beautiful than a mature forest. I don’t think anything humans have ever created can compare with that.
     
    It's a cultural preference. Before the Romantic Movement came along nobody would have agreed with you.

    You're certainly entitled to your cultural preference. I like the fact that people have different cultural preferences. It makes life interesting.

    When it comes to aesthetics there is no objective truth.

    We've been heavily indoctrinated into the Romantic viewpoint on nature for the last couple of centuries. That doesn't make the Romantic viewpoint wrong, but it doesn't make it right either. There are differing aesthetic tastes and we should never assume that the aesthetic taste that happens to be culturally dominant at the moment is some kind of eternal truth.

    The aesthetic tastes of westerners prior to the rise of the Romantic Movement were so radically different from ours that it is difficult even to comprehend such a viewpoint, but their tastes were just as valid as ours. Just as the aesthetics of other civilisations (such as Japanese civilisation) are radically different from ours but just as valid.

    I have no desire to convince you that my aesthetic tastes are superior to yours. They just happen to be different.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @utu, @EldnahYm

    “It’s a cultural preference. Before the Romantic Movement came along nobody would have agreed with you.” – You are full of it. I could say that communist and Jewish anti nature materialism is talking through you. I could say that you would like to pave up with asphalt the all of Siberia if it was up to you. I could say that “American pastoral” by Philip Roth is a good exemplification of Jewish fear and apprehension of nature because for Jews nature is goyish.. But I won’t. Instead I will say that you have no original thought of your own. You are a pretentious bore.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @utu


    I could say that communist and Jewish anti nature materialism is talking through you.
     

    Instead I will say that you have no original thought of your own.
     
    Seeing things as communist and Jewish plots is so dazzlingly and breathtakingly original.
    , @Dmitry
    @utu

    Israeli Jewish culture is relatively anti-city, and the only people outside internet forums like this one I ever heard to say "I hate cities" was secular native Jews in Israel.

    When I was in my early 20s, I had culture shock from talking to natives Israelis in Israel, because they say when you ask if they've visited other countries - "I love Peru and Nepal - I don't want to visit cities like Rome".

    That's likely the reason Tel Aviv is only the size of Novorossíysk, and so undeveloped and financially neglected in the centre. Secular Jews have been constantly trying to leave places that feels like a large city, and to live in green suburbs and miniature villages which are all running all the way along the coast, and as a result Tel Aviv becomes an undeveloped warehouse/industrial zone, only poorly developed into a normal residential city, and only this decade will be is starting to get normal features of a city like a tram service.

    To love great cities is usually correlating to people with a higher European cultural level. To be enchanted with Rome, London, Paris and New York, is usually people who are under spell of complex cultural products related to those cities and/or their history.

    People that read Zola and Victor Hugo, are enchanted with Paris; if you are a fan of Tosca, you cannot visit Rome without hearing a certain melody; if you are fan of "Mrs Dalloway", then Oxford Street in London is a pilgrimage zone.

    On the other hand, if you never had a specific historical and cultural background to appeciate them, then these cities might be justifiably felt to be nothing more than a concrete jungle with high prices and uncomfortable crowds.

    For people without a specific "cultural/historical priming" then it's possible that Peru, Goa or Thailand, can seem far more interesting than Paris or London. To enjoy Patagonia doesn't need you to have a specific cultural background - it is intrinsically beautiful and interesting; while to make London to be interesting, might often require you to be a fan of specific culture and history.

    Replies: @utu

  122. @AP
    @dfordoom


    I see nature as ugly and depressing and I see art as a valiant attempt to create beauty in an ugly world. At least that’s how I see the function of art.
     
    To each his own. Thinking of the world as nan essentially ugly place seems rather depressing, though.

    Natural things are more beautiful when the chaos of nature is moulded into some kind of order. Forests are ugly, but formal gardens are beautiful.

     

    People have the capacity to make nature more beautiful but how can one deny the beauty of a mature forest with massive trees, the smell of pines or maples (particularly after a rain), etc.?

    This is in northern New England:

    https://www.planetware.com/photos-large/USNH/usa-new-hampshire-the-basin.jpg

    https://cdn.architecturendesign.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/AD-The-34-Most-Beautifu-Forests-In-The-World-31.jpg

    The old formal gardens were made by people who were still connected to nature, hence their beauty.

    I don’t subscribe to the Cult of Nature, which I consider to be one of the many pernicious legacies of the Romantic Movement
     
    This is a very good point. But the Cult of Reason also lacked a certain balance...

    Replies: @melanf, @dfordoom, @SafeNow

    Thinking of the world as nan essentially ugly place seems rather depressing, though.

    I don’t think that way. I think of nature as ugly but I can find lots of beauty in the man-made environment. Some people can’t. I’m not accusing you of this, but there are people who just have a knee-jerk reaction against man-made environments. I have a knee-jerk reaction against natural environments!

    The old formal gardens were made by people who were still connected to nature, hence their beauty.

    They were still connected to nature, but not in any kind of modern sense. They saw nature as something that needed to be tamed, controlled and reduced to order. Being close to nature they recognised its dark side. Many people today romanticise Nature because they’re not compelled to confront it the way people of the past were.

    I don’t subscribe to the Cult of Nature, which I consider to be one of the many pernicious legacies of the Romantic Movement

    This is a very good point. But the Cult of Reason also lacked a certain balance…

    Yes. There’s room for both approaches. I take things a bit far in one direction but I have no problems with people who tend in the other direction.

    Diversity is our strength.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @dfordoom

    Aesthetics are subjective, yes you are right, I myself find beauty both in nature and in the works of human ingenuity.



    They were still connected to nature, but not in any kind of modern sense. They saw nature as something that needed to be tamed, controlled and reduced to order. Being close to nature they recognised its dark side. Many people today romanticise Nature because they’re not compelled to confront it the way people of the past were.
     
    This is so true, for people of the past nature was something dangerous and wild, to be tamed by human hands. Romanticist notion of nature was born later.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @EldnahYm

  123. @AP
    @songbird

    My kids and I once spent about 15 minutes happily close to a porcupine peacefully munching on grass. We got close enough to touch it, but did not do so. Interesting how perceptions can be different - nothing horrible crossed our minds.

    Replies: @songbird, @Mr. Hack

    I thought of you and your young family last night after watching this very good Ukrainian fantasy film, ‘The Stronghold”. I was impressed with the overall quality of this film, the special effects were as good as anything Pixar/Disney/Marvel put out. The story line is good and the acting is adequate too. Family friendly that I think that your kids would greatly enjoy. You can watch it for free through YouTube on your large Samsung TV. The print is good too, if not 4K then definitely some kind of high definition.

  124. @Bashibuzuk
    @dfordoom


    It’s a cultural preference. Before the Romantic Movement came along nobody would have agreed with you.
     
    It has nothing cultural about it, I come from the Soviet cultural environment - a technicist culture if there ever was one, it is just that I am able to appreciate the beauty and complexity of the natural patterns and shapes.

    One should be aware that a single living cell is complex enough that it takes a high computational capacity to even attempt to simulate that.

    https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2012/07/to-model-the-simplest-microbe-in-the-world-you-need-128-computers/260198/

    People think that living things are simple and boring, but that's because they are used to live in human-built concrete jungle.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    It has nothing cultural about it, I come from the Soviet cultural environment – a technicist culture if there ever was one, it is just that I am able to appreciate the beauty and complexity of the natural patterns and shapes.

    It’s still a cultural influence, whether you accept the prevailing cultural view or react against it.

    I’m certainly aware that I’m to some extent reacting against the modern western Cult of Nature. I also admit to being a contrarian. Whatever the prevailing view is, I’m going to regard it with scepticism.

    • Replies: @Morton's toes
    @dfordoom

    I have two hobbies: reading obscure books and walking in the woods. If you do not like walking in the woods I will not bore you. But this might be of passing interest: in The Greeks and the Irrational by Eric Dodds he offers as a passing and insignificant observation that in ancient times almost all experience by men of divine inspiration or divine experience or the transcendental occurred by old guys walking by themselves in the hills or in the mountains. Dodds was an atheist and this meant nothing to him. He has a preliminary apologetic disclaimer like he is sure this bit of trivia would interest almost nobody.

    https://www.amazon.com/Greeks-Irrational-Sather-Classical-Lectures/dp/0520242300

    Replies: @silviosilver

  125. @utu
    @dfordoom

    "It’s a cultural preference. Before the Romantic Movement came along nobody would have agreed with you." - You are full of it. I could say that communist and Jewish anti nature materialism is talking through you. I could say that you would like to pave up with asphalt the all of Siberia if it was up to you. I could say that "American pastoral" by Philip Roth is a good exemplification of Jewish fear and apprehension of nature because for Jews nature is goyish.. But I won't. Instead I will say that you have no original thought of your own. You are a pretentious bore.

    Replies: @dfordoom, @Dmitry

    I could say that communist and Jewish anti nature materialism is talking through you.

    Instead I will say that you have no original thought of your own.

    Seeing things as communist and Jewish plots is so dazzlingly and breathtakingly original.

  126. @dfordoom
    @Bashibuzuk


    It has nothing cultural about it, I come from the Soviet cultural environment – a technicist culture if there ever was one, it is just that I am able to appreciate the beauty and complexity of the natural patterns and shapes.
     
    It's still a cultural influence, whether you accept the prevailing cultural view or react against it.

    I'm certainly aware that I'm to some extent reacting against the modern western Cult of Nature. I also admit to being a contrarian. Whatever the prevailing view is, I'm going to regard it with scepticism.

    Replies: @Morton's toes

    I have two hobbies: reading obscure books and walking in the woods. If you do not like walking in the woods I will not bore you. But this might be of passing interest: in The Greeks and the Irrational by Eric Dodds he offers as a passing and insignificant observation that in ancient times almost all experience by men of divine inspiration or divine experience or the transcendental occurred by old guys walking by themselves in the hills or in the mountains. Dodds was an atheist and this meant nothing to him. He has a preliminary apologetic disclaimer like he is sure this bit of trivia would interest almost nobody.

    • Thanks: Bashibuzuk
    • Replies: @silviosilver
    @Morton's toes


    I have two hobbies: reading obscure books and walking in the woods.
     
    Do you really walk in the woods though? I like to tell myself the same thing, but the reality is I'm just walking through parkland. My favorite trail is heavily wooded and runs by a river on one side and a golf course on the other. There are sports grounds close by (football, netball, cricket), and if I go walking at dusk I can hear referee whistles in the distance and I can see the headlights of cars as parents arrive to pick up the kids from training, so even if I'm walking along a portion of the trail where it's where to encounter other people, there are plenty of other reminders that human activity is taking place very nearby. That's quite different to what a walk in the woods meant for most of human history.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @reiner Tor

  127. @Kent Nationalist
    @songbird

    There's a massive push also for lesbianism at the moment. I used to look at the schedules or reviews of new films coming out at arthouse cinemas and the non-black ones often had a lesbian relationship (usually with two young, cute actresses) even if they were not otherwise specifically homosexual films (unlike gay films, which had their own separate genre).

    I don't really understand the reason before this. Obviously lesbianism does not actually exist, so unlike with gay films there is no sort of market for these. The only thing I can think of is that it is a way for film directors and producers to fulfil diversity quotas (which already exist for many film awards) without showing male homosexuality, which is more viscerally disgusting.

    Replies: @songbird, @dfordoom, @reiner Tor

    Lesbianism obviously does exist. It’s not so exclusive as male homosexuality, but there are women out there who do have sex with other women.

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @reiner Tor


    Lesbianism obviously does exist. It’s not so exclusive as male homosexuality, but there are women out there who do have sex with other women.
     
    It exists but it obviously has little or nothing in common with male homosexuality. Which is hardly surprising given the enormous differences between male and female sexuality.

    Most of the lesbians I've known (and I've known a lot) slept with men from time to time. And quite a few ended up in permanent relationships with men. There are a lot of "lesbian until the right man comes along" lesbians. But some lesbians seem to remain lesbians.
    , @Kent Nationalist
    @reiner Tor


    there are women out there who do have sex with other women
     
    Women can't have sex with each other

    What are commonly known as lesbians (i.e. cohabiting middle-aged spinsters) do not even pretend to ('Lesbian bed death').

    What is depicted in these films as lesbianism (i.e. hot, feminine 20-30 year old women passionate for one another) does not exist. I have never met a genuine lesbian in my life. The head of the LGBTQ (etc) society at my university was a supposed 'lesbian' yet had a boyfriend at the time and for several years previously and I once recognised her at a nightclub snogging another man. From what I gathered, her one lesbian experience consisted of kissing her best friend once at a party in her last year of school.

    Replies: @dfordoom, @The Spirit of Enoch Powell, @reiner Tor, @Ray P

  128. @silviosilver
    @AaronB

    Aaron, I think I speak for everyone hear when I say we're all just touched that in these moments of peak spiritual elevation - aka shroom ingestion - it's us you think to share your insights with.

    And to be honest, although I seldom agree with much of what you say, it's sometimes just kinda fun to read along with you.

    Replies: @AaronB, @reiner Tor

    it’s sometimes just kinda fun to read along with you.

    It improved my quality of life when I started scrolling over those comments. But, to each his own.

  129. @silviosilver
    @Mikel

    Nature's okay, but really, four hours is the most that anybody should want to spend in nature, and even that is seriously pushing it. Personally, I start getting bored after fifteen minutes. Once you've seen two or three beaches or mountains or lakes, you've pretty much seen them all. I know each one is unique and all that, but that's something you realize straight away and it doesn't prevent the boredom from setting in.

    What you do in nature anyway, just look at it? How many people can really do that all day though. That's why we have picnics or go for swims or even just walks, because nature, of itself, is fundamentally boring and we need something to distract us when we're in it. Personally, I think an underrated reason cities have attracted people for thousands of years is because we're anxious to get away from nature and its blizzards, its heat waves, its stings, its snakebites, its swamps and its sands.

    For me, the really humbling experience is to take in the splendor of the city from an elevated vantage point and reflect on the myriad benefits that have accrued to us from transcending nature's meager bounty. Always remember: I could go three years without nature and not miss it, but could you really go three days without electricity?

    Replies: @Mikel, @blatnoi, @reiner Tor, @Dmitry

    Walking in nature is a good thing, but only if it’s not a totally wild nature. You don’t want bears and hungry wolves around.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @reiner Tor

    Animals usually avoid humans the best they can. They know we are a source of trouble.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  130. @AP
    @dfordoom


    I see nature as ugly and depressing and I see art as a valiant attempt to create beauty in an ugly world. At least that’s how I see the function of art.
     
    To each his own. Thinking of the world as nan essentially ugly place seems rather depressing, though.

    Natural things are more beautiful when the chaos of nature is moulded into some kind of order. Forests are ugly, but formal gardens are beautiful.

     

    People have the capacity to make nature more beautiful but how can one deny the beauty of a mature forest with massive trees, the smell of pines or maples (particularly after a rain), etc.?

    This is in northern New England:

    https://www.planetware.com/photos-large/USNH/usa-new-hampshire-the-basin.jpg

    https://cdn.architecturendesign.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/AD-The-34-Most-Beautifu-Forests-In-The-World-31.jpg

    The old formal gardens were made by people who were still connected to nature, hence their beauty.

    I don’t subscribe to the Cult of Nature, which I consider to be one of the many pernicious legacies of the Romantic Movement
     
    This is a very good point. But the Cult of Reason also lacked a certain balance...

    Replies: @melanf, @dfordoom, @SafeNow

    Coleridge’s advice to his son Hartley: A life close to nature, my boy!
    (Midnight Frost among other works contains such advice.)

    (Forgive me, Harvard and the rest of the “refreshed”-literature crowd, for
    the reference to Coleridge.)

    Speaking of nature, Peggy Noonan, in today’s Wall Street Journal op-ed, wrote that New York City has “the greatest” parks. I would have thought it might be Yellowstone, or Yosemite, or thousands of other parks that are not Central Park. It would be difficult to find a better example of progressive close-mindedness and contempt for deplorables.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @SafeNow


    Speaking of nature, Peggy Noonan, in today’s Wall Street Journal op-ed, wrote that New York City has “the greatest” parks.
     
    These people don't know what wilderness is. Their spirits have been tamed to such an extent that they imagine nothing as beautiful as their own cages.

    They are human hamsters threading in their spinning wheels.

    When I visited NY I truly marveled at how anyone could willingly live there. I have the same feeling now about Moscow where I was born. I can still enjoy small provincial towns and villages, but the megalopolises are such an agressive environment...

    , @AP
    @SafeNow

    Central Park is really beautiful though, not a formal garden, but cultivated nature at its best. Just ignore the rats and crowds.

    Replies: @Mikhail

  131. @That Would Be Telling
    @g2k


    only a covidiot would oppose such a [total isolation, lockdown till it's died out, then normal life except for the isolation] strategy, what’s stopping the USA and Russia? The uk has just extended lockdown by another 4 months despite vaccinating nearly a third of the population.
     
    Indeed, but for the West's ruling trash globalism and importing hordes of low IQ Third Worlders is a religion you might say; I don't know about Russia. As for the U.K., they're trying an experiment where they give everyone a single jab ASAP, with the booster at many as 12 weeks from them. Not supported by the mRNA companies which simply didn't test that regimen, but there's a good chance this is mostly harmless, and could be much better for the AZ/Oxford disappointment. Which means a large fraction of that nearly one third aren't yet properly vaccinated.

    Replies: @g2k

    Oh dear, perhaps you ought to have clicked the links. All those examples are countries that have attempted such a thing, declared success only to have outbreaks and subsequent lockdowns again,… and again……and again. They’ve also painted themselves into a corner as the likely endgame of all of this for most of the world is that corona will become endemic, defanged by vaccines quite soon in developed countries, a few years away in the rest; it’s going to be politically very difficult for them to open. Quite frankly, any benefit from reduced immigration to developed countries in such a scenario is more than counted by citizens of those countries having less freedom to travel than a medieval peasant (Australia actually has commie exit visas).

  132. @g2k
    @Shortsword

    I know, but maybe they were just unlucky, there's lots of other small island nations that were able to lockdown long and hard enough to get covid cases to 0 and then completely cut themselves off from the rest of the world, so that they'd never have to lockdown again:

    https://jerseyeveningpost.com/news/2020/11/07/islanders-warned-that-jersey-could-be-heading-for-another-lockdown-as-active-cases-top-100/

    https://www.itv.com/news/channel/2021-01-23/guernsey-to-enter-lockdown

    https://www.itv.com/news/granada/2021-01-05/isle-of-man-re-enters-lockdown-after-fears-of-covid-spread-in-the-community

    https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/world-australia-56035668


    only a covidiot would oppose such a strategy, what's stopping the USA and Russia? The uk has just extended lockdown by another 4 months despite vaccinating nearly a third of the population.

    Replies: @That Would Be Telling, @g2k

    Double post, please delete

  133. @reiner Tor
    @Kent Nationalist

    Lesbianism obviously does exist. It’s not so exclusive as male homosexuality, but there are women out there who do have sex with other women.

    Replies: @dfordoom, @Kent Nationalist

    Lesbianism obviously does exist. It’s not so exclusive as male homosexuality, but there are women out there who do have sex with other women.

    It exists but it obviously has little or nothing in common with male homosexuality. Which is hardly surprising given the enormous differences between male and female sexuality.

    Most of the lesbians I’ve known (and I’ve known a lot) slept with men from time to time. And quite a few ended up in permanent relationships with men. There are a lot of “lesbian until the right man comes along” lesbians. But some lesbians seem to remain lesbians.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
  134. @dfordoom
    @AP


    Thinking of the world as nan essentially ugly place seems rather depressing, though.
     
    I don't think that way. I think of nature as ugly but I can find lots of beauty in the man-made environment. Some people can't. I'm not accusing you of this, but there are people who just have a knee-jerk reaction against man-made environments. I have a knee-jerk reaction against natural environments!

    The old formal gardens were made by people who were still connected to nature, hence their beauty.
     
    They were still connected to nature, but not in any kind of modern sense. They saw nature as something that needed to be tamed, controlled and reduced to order. Being close to nature they recognised its dark side. Many people today romanticise Nature because they're not compelled to confront it the way people of the past were.


    I don’t subscribe to the Cult of Nature, which I consider to be one of the many pernicious legacies of the Romantic Movement
     
    This is a very good point. But the Cult of Reason also lacked a certain balance…
     
    Yes. There's room for both approaches. I take things a bit far in one direction but I have no problems with people who tend in the other direction.

    Diversity is our strength.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    Aesthetics are subjective, yes you are right, I myself find beauty both in nature and in the works of human ingenuity.

    They were still connected to nature, but not in any kind of modern sense. They saw nature as something that needed to be tamed, controlled and reduced to order. Being close to nature they recognised its dark side. Many people today romanticise Nature because they’re not compelled to confront it the way people of the past were.

    This is so true, for people of the past nature was something dangerous and wild, to be tamed by human hands. Romanticist notion of nature was born later.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @AltanBakshi

    Ancient pagans everywhere did not see nature as evil. They saw it as the norm and did not feel the need to classify it as good or bad.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    , @EldnahYm
    @AltanBakshi


    This is so true, for people of the past nature was something dangerous and wild, to be tamed by human hands. Romanticist notion of nature was born later.
     
    Many groups of people also considered mountains holy, believe nature is full of spirits, etc. Maybe this is all consistent with the idea of nature being tamed, but it seems strange to me. Certainly in visual arts one can find an emphasis upon the vastness of mountains long before the Romantic movement. I don't see much sign of taming in most mountain paintings. I would also add that people can be thrilled by danger.

    I can go along with the idea that people who are living an easy life can afford the luxury of admiring scenes etc. But I think dfordoom (as usual) is overgeneralizing.

    I can of course appreciate both natural and man made objects, although I am firmly in the camp that the natural world is more beautiful. To me, preferring a painting or a building to a natural landscape is like preferring a painting of a beautiful woman to the real thing. I could come up with intellectual reasons for the idea, like a painting could be made to have less imperfections etc., but I can't actually fathom believing such a thing. To my puritanical mind, the idea seems depraved.

    https://www.youtube.com/embed/52uot1y9xb0?start=343&end=420

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @dfordoom

  135. @reiner Tor
    @Kent Nationalist

    Lesbianism obviously does exist. It’s not so exclusive as male homosexuality, but there are women out there who do have sex with other women.

    Replies: @dfordoom, @Kent Nationalist

    there are women out there who do have sex with other women

    Women can’t have sex with each other

    What are commonly known as lesbians (i.e. cohabiting middle-aged spinsters) do not even pretend to (‘Lesbian bed death’).

    What is depicted in these films as lesbianism (i.e. hot, feminine 20-30 year old women passionate for one another) does not exist. I have never met a genuine lesbian in my life. The head of the LGBTQ (etc) society at my university was a supposed ‘lesbian’ yet had a boyfriend at the time and for several years previously and I once recognised her at a nightclub snogging another man. From what I gathered, her one lesbian experience consisted of kissing her best friend once at a party in her last year of school.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Kent Nationalist


    Women can’t have sex with each other

    What are commonly known as lesbians (i.e. cohabiting middle-aged spinsters) do not even pretend to (‘Lesbian bed death’).

    What is depicted in these films as lesbianism (i.e. hot, feminine 20-30 year old women passionate for one another) does not exist.
     
    To a certain extent that's true. As I said in an earlier comment lesbianism bears no resemblance whatsoever to male homosexuality. Male homosexuality is mostly about sex. Lesbianism is mostly about hyper-intense emotional dramas. It's all about the relationships. The sex is a minor part of it and yes, in many cases sex is an almost insignificant part of it.

    I have never met a genuine lesbian in my life. The head of the LGBTQ (etc) society at my university was a supposed ‘lesbian’ yet had a boyfriend at the time and for several years previously and I once recognised her at a nightclub snogging another man.
     
    Most of the lesbians I've known felt sexual attraction towards men and I've heard lesbians admit that as far as physical pleasure was concerned sex with men was a lot better than sex with other women.

    But you have to remember that female sexuality in general bears no resemblance to male sexuality. For women sex and emotions are inseparable. For men sex and emotions are two different things that happen to overlap.

    There used to be a huge gulf between the "bar dykes" and the "political dykes" - there's no question that for the vast majority of the "political dykes" being a lesbian is mostly a political statement. Most of them are in fact heterosexual. That's what has always fuelled their anger. They're at war with themselves. They're usually very psychologically unstable. It's the "political dykes" who attracted the most attention.

    The "bar dykes" usually had very little interest in politics, usually got along extremely well with men and did actually seem to be sexually attracted to women although the sexual attraction was always hopelessly entangled with emotional attraction (which is usually true of heterosexual women).
    , @The Spirit of Enoch Powell
    @Kent Nationalist


    I have never met a genuine lesbian in my life. The head of the LGBTQ (etc) society at my university was a supposed ‘lesbian’ yet had a boyfriend at the time and for several years previously and I once recognised her at a nightclub snogging another man. From what I gathered, her one lesbian experience consisted of kissing her best friend once at a party in her last year of school.
     
    LGBT Identification Rises to 5.6% in Latest U.S. Estimate

    Notice the rise in "bisexuals"

    https://i.ibb.co/Vp3545V/1.png
    , @reiner Tor
    @Kent Nationalist


    Women can’t have sex with each other
     
    It depends on a Clintonesque definition of sex. They certainly can be naked while causing sexual pleasure to each other, whether with the help of their tongues, fingers, or certain tools, is immaterial. What matters is that it can to a very large extent be a substitute for actual intercourse with a man, and some women engage in it regularly.

    Replies: @songbird

    , @Ray P
    @Kent Nationalist

    She sounds like Rachel Karen Greene (Jennifer Aniston) in The One with Rachel's Big Kiss who claims she had a lesbian fling in college because she snogged the Sorority social secretary (Winona Ryder) at a party.

  136. @reiner Tor
    @silviosilver

    Walking in nature is a good thing, but only if it’s not a totally wild nature. You don’t want bears and hungry wolves around.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    Animals usually avoid humans the best they can. They know we are a source of trouble.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Bashibuzuk

    If you are not loud enough, you can get surprisingly close to bears. It does occasionally happen to tourists that they get in between a female bear and her cubs. Which could easily result in a ferocious attack by the bear.

  137. @SafeNow
    @AP

    Coleridge’s advice to his son Hartley: A life close to nature, my boy!
    (Midnight Frost among other works contains such advice.)

    (Forgive me, Harvard and the rest of the “refreshed”-literature crowd, for
    the reference to Coleridge.)

    Speaking of nature, Peggy Noonan, in today’s Wall Street Journal op-ed, wrote that New York City has “the greatest” parks. I would have thought it might be Yellowstone, or Yosemite, or thousands of other parks that are not Central Park. It would be difficult to find a better example of progressive close-mindedness and contempt for deplorables.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @AP

    Speaking of nature, Peggy Noonan, in today’s Wall Street Journal op-ed, wrote that New York City has “the greatest” parks.

    These people don’t know what wilderness is. Their spirits have been tamed to such an extent that they imagine nothing as beautiful as their own cages.

    They are human hamsters threading in their spinning wheels.

    When I visited NY I truly marveled at how anyone could willingly live there. I have the same feeling now about Moscow where I was born. I can still enjoy small provincial towns and villages, but the megalopolises are such an agressive environment…

    • Agree: SafeNow
  138. @AltanBakshi
    @dfordoom

    Aesthetics are subjective, yes you are right, I myself find beauty both in nature and in the works of human ingenuity.



    They were still connected to nature, but not in any kind of modern sense. They saw nature as something that needed to be tamed, controlled and reduced to order. Being close to nature they recognised its dark side. Many people today romanticise Nature because they’re not compelled to confront it the way people of the past were.
     
    This is so true, for people of the past nature was something dangerous and wild, to be tamed by human hands. Romanticist notion of nature was born later.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @EldnahYm

    Ancient pagans everywhere did not see nature as evil. They saw it as the norm and did not feel the need to classify it as good or bad.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Bashibuzuk

    Probably it depended on which kind of spirits inhabited the place, but I was writing about later development of European man, the prevalent attitude of the Middle Ages and Early Modern Era, that the nature is something to be tamed.

  139. @AltanBakshi
    @dfordoom

    Aesthetics are subjective, yes you are right, I myself find beauty both in nature and in the works of human ingenuity.



    They were still connected to nature, but not in any kind of modern sense. They saw nature as something that needed to be tamed, controlled and reduced to order. Being close to nature they recognised its dark side. Many people today romanticise Nature because they’re not compelled to confront it the way people of the past were.
     
    This is so true, for people of the past nature was something dangerous and wild, to be tamed by human hands. Romanticist notion of nature was born later.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @EldnahYm

    This is so true, for people of the past nature was something dangerous and wild, to be tamed by human hands. Romanticist notion of nature was born later.

    Many groups of people also considered mountains holy, believe nature is full of spirits, etc. Maybe this is all consistent with the idea of nature being tamed, but it seems strange to me. Certainly in visual arts one can find an emphasis upon the vastness of mountains long before the Romantic movement. I don’t see much sign of taming in most mountain paintings. I would also add that people can be thrilled by danger.

    I can go along with the idea that people who are living an easy life can afford the luxury of admiring scenes etc. But I think dfordoom (as usual) is overgeneralizing.

    I can of course appreciate both natural and man made objects, although I am firmly in the camp that the natural world is more beautiful. To me, preferring a painting or a building to a natural landscape is like preferring a painting of a beautiful woman to the real thing. I could come up with intellectual reasons for the idea, like a painting could be made to have less imperfections etc., but I can’t actually fathom believing such a thing. To my puritanical mind, the idea seems depraved.

    https://www.youtube.com/embed/52uot1y9xb0?start=343&end=420

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @EldnahYm


    Many groups of people also considered mountains holy, believe nature is full of spirits, etc. Maybe this is all consistent with the idea of nature being tamed, but it seems strange to me. Certainly in visual arts one can find an emphasis upon the vastness of mountains long before the Romantic movement. I don’t see much sign of taming in most mountain paintings. I would also add that people can be thrilled by danger.
     
    This all is true, but you really couldn't walk freely in the forests or mountains before the 19th century, they were everywhere full of beasts and sometimes vagabonds. We can't even fathom how dangerous places they were. Even in thinly populated modern countries like Sweden, Russia, Finland bear and wolf populations are carefully kept small and in check. Wolfs and Bears are not stupid, their mentality must nowadays be quite different of those wolves and bears of the past, who were against men armed with bows and polearms. Anyway in my knowledge Medieval Europeans didn't paint any landscape paintings depicting mountains or forests like Chinese or Japanese did, even during renaissance intricate depictions of nature were just a background art for important people. I don't know exactly what was the Orthodox attitude towards the nature in the olden times, but I know very well that for Protestants Nature was something given by God to Man, so that Man could rule the nature, tame and control it, so that he could forge order out of chaos.

    I myself have quite utilitarian attitude with the nature, I grew up in country where there are lots of forests and nature, as did both of my parents, beginning from my childhood years I have spent lots of time in the forests, so to me they dont have anything special in them, in army we had long training camps in forest, living in small tents during winter in a very cold climate near the sea, after such I cant enjoy camping much, why I should force myself to live again like some filthy animal? Camping in nature is no fun, but trekking is nice, especially if you have a cottage where you can spend your nights. Best experience is when faith, sport and beauty meet, which is for me the Buddhist areas of Inner Asia, where the land does not just have a natural beauty in it, but also there's a Sacral Geometry, or how you say it in English? You know Holy mountains, lakes, caves and small temples and trekking to such places where Buddhist sages and saints have lived, in such circumstances my trekking has a spiritual significance, its not just only a sport or having a fun as a tourist, but a pilgrimage!

    Replies: @melanf, @EldnahYm, @Mr. Hack, @reiner Tor

    , @dfordoom
    @EldnahYm


    Certainly in visual arts one can find an emphasis upon the vastness of mountains long before the Romantic movement.
     
    I do think the Romantic Movement marked a radical change in the way people looked at nature.

    I can go along with the idea that people who are living an easy life can afford the luxury of admiring scenes etc. But I think dfordoom (as usual) is overgeneralizing.
     
    I started out by making what I thought (in my innocence) were a couple of incredibly uncontroversial points - that aesthetic tastes vary and that it is possible to find beauty in man-made things, that it is possible to see beauty in the artificial as well as in the natural. I expressed, quite honestly, my own personal preferences. I made it very clear that I was not making any sort of value on judgment on people whose aesthetic tastes differ from mine.

    I guess I was making a plea for tolerance of differing views on aesthetics. I didn't realise that aesthetics was a burning moral and political issue.

    To me, preferring a painting or a building to a natural landscape is like preferring a painting of a beautiful woman to the real thing.
     
    It's called have differing aesthetic tastes. It's not something to be threatened by. Apparently I've committed a crime against Aesthetic Correctness. I didn't realise that not liking natural landscapes made me a bad person.

    I'd also like to stress that I'm not an apologist for Modernism. I think 90% of Modernist architecture and 98% of Modernist painting is ghastly. I love 19th century academic art, 19th century neoclassicist art and 19th century Symbolist art. I like the Gothic Revival style. Oddly enough I'm not the biggest fan of neoclassicist architecture but I love neoclassicist painting. I dislike the Impressionists. I'm suspicious of the Romantics, although I'm a huge fan of Caspar David Friedrich's paintings. On the whole my artistic tastes are very old-fashioned.

    There is however some Modernist architecture that I really really like. And personally I do prefer cityscapes to natural landscapes.

    To my puritanical mind, the idea seems depraved.
     
    I find it very difficult to see aesthetics as a moral question. Do you think it's a moral question?

    Replies: @AaronB

  140. @dfordoom

    Few things are more beautiful than a mature forest. I don’t think anything humans have ever created can compare with that.
     
    It's a cultural preference. Before the Romantic Movement came along nobody would have agreed with you.

    You're certainly entitled to your cultural preference. I like the fact that people have different cultural preferences. It makes life interesting.

    When it comes to aesthetics there is no objective truth.

    We've been heavily indoctrinated into the Romantic viewpoint on nature for the last couple of centuries. That doesn't make the Romantic viewpoint wrong, but it doesn't make it right either. There are differing aesthetic tastes and we should never assume that the aesthetic taste that happens to be culturally dominant at the moment is some kind of eternal truth.

    The aesthetic tastes of westerners prior to the rise of the Romantic Movement were so radically different from ours that it is difficult even to comprehend such a viewpoint, but their tastes were just as valid as ours. Just as the aesthetics of other civilisations (such as Japanese civilisation) are radically different from ours but just as valid.

    I have no desire to convince you that my aesthetic tastes are superior to yours. They just happen to be different.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @utu, @EldnahYm

    When it comes to aesthetics there is no objective truth.

    This claim seems dubious to me. People’s perception of beauty seems to at least be partly objective. For example is the appreciation of symmetry, which is an objective, mathematical principle.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
  141. @melanf
    https://ss.metronews.ru/userfiles/materials/165/1655012/858x540.jpg

    In St. Petersburg, anyone can freely vaccinate in shopping centers. There are no queues, the points accept hundreds of patients a day (although they are designed for twice as many). The situation is about the same in all cities of Russia. This is (to a large extent) the result of the anti-vaccination campaign that the media controlled by Washington conducted in Russia

    https://gazeta.spb.ru/wp-content/uploads/2021/02/photo_2021-02-24_11-16-39.jpg

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Gerard.Gerard, @Anatoly Karlin

    One persistent point that anti-vaxxers make and which I have no real response to though is why Putin hasn’t publicly taken Sputnik V himself.

    I suppose that as a religious conservative boomer he might well be an anti-vaxxer himself although one who doesn’t want to signal it.

    • Replies: @melanf
    @Anatoly Karlin


    One persistent point that anti-vaxxers make and which I have no real response to though is why Putin hasn’t publicly taken Sputnik V himself.
    I suppose that as a religious conservative boomer he might well be an anti-vaxxer himself although one who doesn’t want to signal it.
     
    This is unlikely. It was Putin who pushed for vaccination in an accelerated manner (which was the subject of attacks by liberals). The ROC officially supports vaccination, the second person in the church (Metropolitan Hilarion) who was ill with covid then (after recovery) was vaccinated in September to give an example to others.

    Most likely Putin has some health problems that he hides from the public. Otherwise, we will have to admit that he is a member of a very strange sect that approves vaccinating everyone else, but prohibits vaccination for their co-religionists

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin, @Gerard.Gerard

    , @reiner Tor
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Interestingly Orbán just got vaccinated with the Sinopharm vaccine publicly. He imported that vaccine in spite of a lack of approval from the EU, amid general mistrust by the population. (My mother just rejected it because she didn’t trust the Chinese vaccine.)

  142. @EldnahYm
    @AltanBakshi


    This is so true, for people of the past nature was something dangerous and wild, to be tamed by human hands. Romanticist notion of nature was born later.
     
    Many groups of people also considered mountains holy, believe nature is full of spirits, etc. Maybe this is all consistent with the idea of nature being tamed, but it seems strange to me. Certainly in visual arts one can find an emphasis upon the vastness of mountains long before the Romantic movement. I don't see much sign of taming in most mountain paintings. I would also add that people can be thrilled by danger.

    I can go along with the idea that people who are living an easy life can afford the luxury of admiring scenes etc. But I think dfordoom (as usual) is overgeneralizing.

    I can of course appreciate both natural and man made objects, although I am firmly in the camp that the natural world is more beautiful. To me, preferring a painting or a building to a natural landscape is like preferring a painting of a beautiful woman to the real thing. I could come up with intellectual reasons for the idea, like a painting could be made to have less imperfections etc., but I can't actually fathom believing such a thing. To my puritanical mind, the idea seems depraved.

    https://www.youtube.com/embed/52uot1y9xb0?start=343&end=420

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @dfordoom

    Many groups of people also considered mountains holy, believe nature is full of spirits, etc. Maybe this is all consistent with the idea of nature being tamed, but it seems strange to me. Certainly in visual arts one can find an emphasis upon the vastness of mountains long before the Romantic movement. I don’t see much sign of taming in most mountain paintings. I would also add that people can be thrilled by danger.

    This all is true, but you really couldn’t walk freely in the forests or mountains before the 19th century, they were everywhere full of beasts and sometimes vagabonds. We can’t even fathom how dangerous places they were. Even in thinly populated modern countries like Sweden, Russia, Finland bear and wolf populations are carefully kept small and in check. Wolfs and Bears are not stupid, their mentality must nowadays be quite different of those wolves and bears of the past, who were against men armed with bows and polearms. Anyway in my knowledge Medieval Europeans didn’t paint any landscape paintings depicting mountains or forests like Chinese or Japanese did, even during renaissance intricate depictions of nature were just a background art for important people. I don’t know exactly what was the Orthodox attitude towards the nature in the olden times, but I know very well that for Protestants Nature was something given by God to Man, so that Man could rule the nature, tame and control it, so that he could forge order out of chaos.

    I myself have quite utilitarian attitude with the nature, I grew up in country where there are lots of forests and nature, as did both of my parents, beginning from my childhood years I have spent lots of time in the forests, so to me they dont have anything special in them, in army we had long training camps in forest, living in small tents during winter in a very cold climate near the sea, after such I cant enjoy camping much, why I should force myself to live again like some filthy animal? Camping in nature is no fun, but trekking is nice, especially if you have a cottage where you can spend your nights. Best experience is when faith, sport and beauty meet, which is for me the Buddhist areas of Inner Asia, where the land does not just have a natural beauty in it, but also there’s a Sacral Geometry, or how you say it in English? You know Holy mountains, lakes, caves and small temples and trekking to such places where Buddhist sages and saints have lived, in such circumstances my trekking has a spiritual significance, its not just only a sport or having a fun as a tourist, but a pilgrimage!

    • Replies: @melanf
    @AltanBakshi


    This all is true, but you really couldn’t walk freely in the forests or mountains before the 19th century, they were everywhere full of beasts and sometimes vagabonds. We can’t even fathom how dangerous places they were.
     
    Animals are afraid of humans. For hundreds of thousands of years, they are genetically accustomed to fear humans as the most terrible predator. In this case, even the reserve "Cedar Pad" (in the Far East of Russia) where there are many tigers, leopards and black bears, it is quite safe for humans.


    Here is an exception - polar bears are not afraid of people (because they have almost no contact with them), and where they are, you have to put bars on the windows

    https://moya-planeta.ru/upload/images/xl/fe/bd/febd1f3168fd21ed1136cde39252132ed144f8b9.jpg

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Anatoly Karlin, @Gerard.Gerard

    , @EldnahYm
    @AltanBakshi


    This all is true, but you really couldn’t walk freely in the forests or mountains before the 19th century, they were everywhere full of beasts and sometimes vagabonds. We can’t even fathom how dangerous places they were. Even in thinly populated modern countries like Sweden, Russia, Finland bear and wolf populations are carefully kept small and in check. Wolfs and Bears are not stupid, their mentality must nowadays be quite different of those wolves and bears of the past, who were against men armed with bows and polearms.
     
    Yes, walking alone in a dense forest was probably not a great idea.

    Anyway in my knowledge Medieval Europeans didn’t paint any landscape paintings depicting mountains or forests like Chinese or Japanese did, even during renaissance intricate depictions of nature were just a background art for important people. I don’t know exactly what was the Orthodox attitude towards the nature in the olden times, but I know very well that for Protestants Nature was something given by God to Man, so that Man could rule the nature, tame and control it, so that he could forge order out of chaos.
     
    The Church held landscape paintings in low regard. This is why medieval Europe lacked landscape paintings. The respect for landscape paintings to a large extent is a result of German culture, like with the Danube school, and later Romanticism(which was also British), even Durer did some earlier. It hasn't much to do with Protestant or Catholic divisions. Most good things in western Europe were created by Germans.
    , @Mr. Hack
    @AltanBakshi

    In the Western world, many people take up hiking as a way to leave their natural cityscapes behind and be able to commune more intimately with mother nature. People with time and money on their hands schedule vacations to more exotic locales with the purpose to climb a mountain or to even watch birds that they wouldn't normally be able to see in their own neck of the woods. While visiting the pristine Osa peninsula in Costa Rica, I was able to take a boat trip into the sea where after about an hour, I found myself in the midst of a huge congregation of dolphins surrounding our boat (500-600 dolphins). Some passengers jumped into the water and had intimate contact with these beautiful animals. Another time, I witnessed the raw and humbling experience of mother nature when upon waking up from a nap, our cabin was soon besieged by thousand of "army ants" out on a patrol. They left after about an hour, and luckily they didn't return from what I've been told could be millions of such ants out for a more complete and engaging outing.

    , @reiner Tor
    @AltanBakshi

    Rich people always liked to hunt in the forest. It was perfectly safe (there were accidents, but not much more dangerous than driving sports cars in the 1930s), but not a solitary activity. Nature was dangerous for a person walking alone.

  143. @Anatoly Karlin
    @melanf

    One persistent point that anti-vaxxers make and which I have no real response to though is why Putin hasn't publicly taken Sputnik V himself.

    I suppose that as a religious conservative boomer he might well be an anti-vaxxer himself although one who doesn't want to signal it.

    Replies: @melanf, @reiner Tor

    One persistent point that anti-vaxxers make and which I have no real response to though is why Putin hasn’t publicly taken Sputnik V himself.
    I suppose that as a religious conservative boomer he might well be an anti-vaxxer himself although one who doesn’t want to signal it.

    This is unlikely. It was Putin who pushed for vaccination in an accelerated manner (which was the subject of attacks by liberals). The ROC officially supports vaccination, the second person in the church (Metropolitan Hilarion) who was ill with covid then (after recovery) was vaccinated in September to give an example to others.

    Most likely Putin has some health problems that he hides from the public. Otherwise, we will have to admit that he is a member of a very strange sect that approves vaccinating everyone else, but prohibits vaccination for their co-religionists

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    @melanf

    Well there's various health rumors about Putin, but I have generally dismissed them all as ill-wishing conspiracy theories, considering they never panned out and that Putin's relatives seem to have consistently lived very long lives (esp. by 20C Russian standards). In any case, basic point that catching Corona is worse than getting a vaccine stands, esp. if you DO have preexisting health problems.

    It doesn't necessarily need to have religious motivations, vaccine skepticism is high amongst Soviet-style people too. (Decades of pushing atheism created a population highly susceptible to conspiracy theories and mystical thinking of all sorts as seen in the 1990s).

    Replies: @melanf, @Mikhail, @g2k

    , @Gerard.Gerard
    @melanf

    1. At least 1 of VVP's daughters has had SputnikV doses at early stage

    2. He may just have natural immunity to it and not want to appear a showoff by not requiring SputnikV , or have had the disease already (many at the top level of government and in Presidential administration have) and want to wait the recommended time before receiving vaccine....plus there are about a million security reasons why he may not want to publicise that.

    3. VVP could easily just lie about having the vaccine anyway - particularly after the freakshow of Poroshenko and Zelensky getting drug tested for TV before a "debate", Russian public not desperate for gratification to see if VVP vaccinated or not

    Replies: @melanf

  144. @Bashibuzuk
    @AltanBakshi

    Ancient pagans everywhere did not see nature as evil. They saw it as the norm and did not feel the need to classify it as good or bad.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    Probably it depended on which kind of spirits inhabited the place, but I was writing about later development of European man, the prevalent attitude of the Middle Ages and Early Modern Era, that the nature is something to be tamed.

  145. @AltanBakshi
    @EldnahYm


    Many groups of people also considered mountains holy, believe nature is full of spirits, etc. Maybe this is all consistent with the idea of nature being tamed, but it seems strange to me. Certainly in visual arts one can find an emphasis upon the vastness of mountains long before the Romantic movement. I don’t see much sign of taming in most mountain paintings. I would also add that people can be thrilled by danger.
     
    This all is true, but you really couldn't walk freely in the forests or mountains before the 19th century, they were everywhere full of beasts and sometimes vagabonds. We can't even fathom how dangerous places they were. Even in thinly populated modern countries like Sweden, Russia, Finland bear and wolf populations are carefully kept small and in check. Wolfs and Bears are not stupid, their mentality must nowadays be quite different of those wolves and bears of the past, who were against men armed with bows and polearms. Anyway in my knowledge Medieval Europeans didn't paint any landscape paintings depicting mountains or forests like Chinese or Japanese did, even during renaissance intricate depictions of nature were just a background art for important people. I don't know exactly what was the Orthodox attitude towards the nature in the olden times, but I know very well that for Protestants Nature was something given by God to Man, so that Man could rule the nature, tame and control it, so that he could forge order out of chaos.

    I myself have quite utilitarian attitude with the nature, I grew up in country where there are lots of forests and nature, as did both of my parents, beginning from my childhood years I have spent lots of time in the forests, so to me they dont have anything special in them, in army we had long training camps in forest, living in small tents during winter in a very cold climate near the sea, after such I cant enjoy camping much, why I should force myself to live again like some filthy animal? Camping in nature is no fun, but trekking is nice, especially if you have a cottage where you can spend your nights. Best experience is when faith, sport and beauty meet, which is for me the Buddhist areas of Inner Asia, where the land does not just have a natural beauty in it, but also there's a Sacral Geometry, or how you say it in English? You know Holy mountains, lakes, caves and small temples and trekking to such places where Buddhist sages and saints have lived, in such circumstances my trekking has a spiritual significance, its not just only a sport or having a fun as a tourist, but a pilgrimage!

    Replies: @melanf, @EldnahYm, @Mr. Hack, @reiner Tor

    This all is true, but you really couldn’t walk freely in the forests or mountains before the 19th century, they were everywhere full of beasts and sometimes vagabonds. We can’t even fathom how dangerous places they were.

    Animals are afraid of humans. For hundreds of thousands of years, they are genetically accustomed to fear humans as the most terrible predator. In this case, even the reserve “Cedar Pad” (in the Far East of Russia) where there are many tigers, leopards and black bears, it is quite safe for humans.

    Here is an exception – polar bears are not afraid of people (because they have almost no contact with them), and where they are, you have to put bars on the windows

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @melanf

    Wolves were really dangerous for people in ancient times, in Primorsky Krai theres probably only couple hundred Tigers and Leopards in area of 150 000 sq km, so statistically speaking you have a quite small chance to encounter one, unlike with wolves in premodern Europe, that had much larger populations, even in Ireland and England they were legendary for the danger they possessed for humans.

    Replies: @melanf

    , @Anatoly Karlin
    @melanf

    Many wolves and even bears seem to be quite friendly with people. A long-term selection for bears/wolves that had good relations with human camps is not something I consider implausible.

    This after all is not an uncommon theme in Russian paintings:

    https://foma.ru/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/0005-Medved-copy.jpg

    Grizzly Man communed with bears for 20 years before he was killed by one of them. There are quite a few places in the world and even in the US where he would, in all probability, have been killed by humans quite a lot sooner.

    Polar bears much more dangerous - sure. But even in their case:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7rZTZBOrqQ

    Replies: @melanf, @A123, @Morton's toes, @reiner Tor, @Abelard Lindsey

    , @Gerard.Gerard
    @melanf

    The Animals, particularly predators, don't seem to have evolved at all in dealing with bait tactics from humans. Humans directly carrying bait are as likely to be attacked now, or to attract the animal for kill.... as they were several centuries before.

    Sheep and cows have been killed billions of times by humans but shown zero evolvement including when defending their young. Have herds of Indian cows evolved into not protecting their young from humans because the cow is sacred there and very safe? Don't know.

    Africans must have killed millions of crocodiles to practically use their skin or for black magic sh*t, but when we went to Crocodile place in South Africa we basically gave the crocodile a full massage! It was middle of the day, so very hot and so you can do to the the crocodile what you want in that temperature, which of course as Russians we can't resist! Fence was very thin, malleable wire fence that was very easy to put hands and arms through and stroke and lightly poke 2 crocodiles (obviously not the head, but the body) . Fencing spherical in places because the Croc was resting there, and in another place because a Croc must have previously stayed there.
    A beautiful creature to touch, wonderful skin.No supervision and very safe!

  146. @melanf
    @AltanBakshi


    This all is true, but you really couldn’t walk freely in the forests or mountains before the 19th century, they were everywhere full of beasts and sometimes vagabonds. We can’t even fathom how dangerous places they were.
     
    Animals are afraid of humans. For hundreds of thousands of years, they are genetically accustomed to fear humans as the most terrible predator. In this case, even the reserve "Cedar Pad" (in the Far East of Russia) where there are many tigers, leopards and black bears, it is quite safe for humans.


    Here is an exception - polar bears are not afraid of people (because they have almost no contact with them), and where they are, you have to put bars on the windows

    https://moya-planeta.ru/upload/images/xl/fe/bd/febd1f3168fd21ed1136cde39252132ed144f8b9.jpg

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Anatoly Karlin, @Gerard.Gerard

    Wolves were really dangerous for people in ancient times, in Primorsky Krai theres probably only couple hundred Tigers and Leopards in area of 150 000 sq km, so statistically speaking you have a quite small chance to encounter one, unlike with wolves in premodern Europe, that had much larger populations, even in Ireland and England they were legendary for the danger they possessed for humans.

    • Replies: @melanf
    @AltanBakshi


    Wolves were really dangerous for people in ancient times,
     
    Wolves attack humans only in the rarest of cases. Cars are much more dangerous than wolves - crossing the street at a green light, we risk more than during a walk in the woods with wolves.

    n Primorsky Krai theres probably only couple hundred Tigers and Leopards in area of 150 000 sq km
     
    The Cedar Pad Nature Reserve is a place where there are really a lot of tigers and leopards in a small area. But if you go there for a walk you will not see these predators as they will avoid meeting people

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  147. @AltanBakshi
    @EldnahYm


    Many groups of people also considered mountains holy, believe nature is full of spirits, etc. Maybe this is all consistent with the idea of nature being tamed, but it seems strange to me. Certainly in visual arts one can find an emphasis upon the vastness of mountains long before the Romantic movement. I don’t see much sign of taming in most mountain paintings. I would also add that people can be thrilled by danger.
     
    This all is true, but you really couldn't walk freely in the forests or mountains before the 19th century, they were everywhere full of beasts and sometimes vagabonds. We can't even fathom how dangerous places they were. Even in thinly populated modern countries like Sweden, Russia, Finland bear and wolf populations are carefully kept small and in check. Wolfs and Bears are not stupid, their mentality must nowadays be quite different of those wolves and bears of the past, who were against men armed with bows and polearms. Anyway in my knowledge Medieval Europeans didn't paint any landscape paintings depicting mountains or forests like Chinese or Japanese did, even during renaissance intricate depictions of nature were just a background art for important people. I don't know exactly what was the Orthodox attitude towards the nature in the olden times, but I know very well that for Protestants Nature was something given by God to Man, so that Man could rule the nature, tame and control it, so that he could forge order out of chaos.

    I myself have quite utilitarian attitude with the nature, I grew up in country where there are lots of forests and nature, as did both of my parents, beginning from my childhood years I have spent lots of time in the forests, so to me they dont have anything special in them, in army we had long training camps in forest, living in small tents during winter in a very cold climate near the sea, after such I cant enjoy camping much, why I should force myself to live again like some filthy animal? Camping in nature is no fun, but trekking is nice, especially if you have a cottage where you can spend your nights. Best experience is when faith, sport and beauty meet, which is for me the Buddhist areas of Inner Asia, where the land does not just have a natural beauty in it, but also there's a Sacral Geometry, or how you say it in English? You know Holy mountains, lakes, caves and small temples and trekking to such places where Buddhist sages and saints have lived, in such circumstances my trekking has a spiritual significance, its not just only a sport or having a fun as a tourist, but a pilgrimage!

    Replies: @melanf, @EldnahYm, @Mr. Hack, @reiner Tor

    This all is true, but you really couldn’t walk freely in the forests or mountains before the 19th century, they were everywhere full of beasts and sometimes vagabonds. We can’t even fathom how dangerous places they were. Even in thinly populated modern countries like Sweden, Russia, Finland bear and wolf populations are carefully kept small and in check. Wolfs and Bears are not stupid, their mentality must nowadays be quite different of those wolves and bears of the past, who were against men armed with bows and polearms.

    Yes, walking alone in a dense forest was probably not a great idea.

    Anyway in my knowledge Medieval Europeans didn’t paint any landscape paintings depicting mountains or forests like Chinese or Japanese did, even during renaissance intricate depictions of nature were just a background art for important people. I don’t know exactly what was the Orthodox attitude towards the nature in the olden times, but I know very well that for Protestants Nature was something given by God to Man, so that Man could rule the nature, tame and control it, so that he could forge order out of chaos.

    The Church held landscape paintings in low regard. This is why medieval Europe lacked landscape paintings. The respect for landscape paintings to a large extent is a result of German culture, like with the Danube school, and later Romanticism(which was also British), even Durer did some earlier. It hasn’t much to do with Protestant or Catholic divisions. Most good things in western Europe were created by Germans.

  148. @AltanBakshi
    @melanf

    Wolves were really dangerous for people in ancient times, in Primorsky Krai theres probably only couple hundred Tigers and Leopards in area of 150 000 sq km, so statistically speaking you have a quite small chance to encounter one, unlike with wolves in premodern Europe, that had much larger populations, even in Ireland and England they were legendary for the danger they possessed for humans.

    Replies: @melanf

    Wolves were really dangerous for people in ancient times,

    Wolves attack humans only in the rarest of cases. Cars are much more dangerous than wolves – crossing the street at a green light, we risk more than during a walk in the woods with wolves.

    n Primorsky Krai theres probably only couple hundred Tigers and Leopards in area of 150 000 sq km

    The Cedar Pad Nature Reserve is a place where there are really a lot of tigers and leopards in a small area. But if you go there for a walk you will not see these predators as they will avoid meeting people

    • Agree: AP
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @melanf


    Wolves attack humans only in the rarest of cases.
     
    You realize that it’s only true in the 21st century but not in the 13th century. Wolves in most of Europe were completely exterminated, and the few wolves who survived in a few places were invariably the ones most inclined to avoid humans at any price.
  149. @SafeNow
    @AP

    Coleridge’s advice to his son Hartley: A life close to nature, my boy!
    (Midnight Frost among other works contains such advice.)

    (Forgive me, Harvard and the rest of the “refreshed”-literature crowd, for
    the reference to Coleridge.)

    Speaking of nature, Peggy Noonan, in today’s Wall Street Journal op-ed, wrote that New York City has “the greatest” parks. I would have thought it might be Yellowstone, or Yosemite, or thousands of other parks that are not Central Park. It would be difficult to find a better example of progressive close-mindedness and contempt for deplorables.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @AP

    Central Park is really beautiful though, not a formal garden, but cultivated nature at its best. Just ignore the rats and crowds.

    • Replies: @Mikhail
    @AP

    In addition to raccoons and coyotes - the latter likely in the category of coywolves.

  150. @Kent Nationalist
    @reiner Tor


    there are women out there who do have sex with other women
     
    Women can't have sex with each other

    What are commonly known as lesbians (i.e. cohabiting middle-aged spinsters) do not even pretend to ('Lesbian bed death').

    What is depicted in these films as lesbianism (i.e. hot, feminine 20-30 year old women passionate for one another) does not exist. I have never met a genuine lesbian in my life. The head of the LGBTQ (etc) society at my university was a supposed 'lesbian' yet had a boyfriend at the time and for several years previously and I once recognised her at a nightclub snogging another man. From what I gathered, her one lesbian experience consisted of kissing her best friend once at a party in her last year of school.

    Replies: @dfordoom, @The Spirit of Enoch Powell, @reiner Tor, @Ray P

    Women can’t have sex with each other

    What are commonly known as lesbians (i.e. cohabiting middle-aged spinsters) do not even pretend to (‘Lesbian bed death’).

    What is depicted in these films as lesbianism (i.e. hot, feminine 20-30 year old women passionate for one another) does not exist.

    To a certain extent that’s true. As I said in an earlier comment lesbianism bears no resemblance whatsoever to male homosexuality. Male homosexuality is mostly about sex. Lesbianism is mostly about hyper-intense emotional dramas. It’s all about the relationships. The sex is a minor part of it and yes, in many cases sex is an almost insignificant part of it.

    I have never met a genuine lesbian in my life. The head of the LGBTQ (etc) society at my university was a supposed ‘lesbian’ yet had a boyfriend at the time and for several years previously and I once recognised her at a nightclub snogging another man.

    Most of the lesbians I’ve known felt sexual attraction towards men and I’ve heard lesbians admit that as far as physical pleasure was concerned sex with men was a lot better than sex with other women.

    But you have to remember that female sexuality in general bears no resemblance to male sexuality. For women sex and emotions are inseparable. For men sex and emotions are two different things that happen to overlap.

    There used to be a huge gulf between the “bar dykes” and the “political dykes” – there’s no question that for the vast majority of the “political dykes” being a lesbian is mostly a political statement. Most of them are in fact heterosexual. That’s what has always fuelled their anger. They’re at war with themselves. They’re usually very psychologically unstable. It’s the “political dykes” who attracted the most attention.

    The “bar dykes” usually had very little interest in politics, usually got along extremely well with men and did actually seem to be sexually attracted to women although the sexual attraction was always hopelessly entangled with emotional attraction (which is usually true of heterosexual women).

    • Thanks: Kent Nationalist
  151. @melanf
    @Anatoly Karlin


    One persistent point that anti-vaxxers make and which I have no real response to though is why Putin hasn’t publicly taken Sputnik V himself.
    I suppose that as a religious conservative boomer he might well be an anti-vaxxer himself although one who doesn’t want to signal it.
     
    This is unlikely. It was Putin who pushed for vaccination in an accelerated manner (which was the subject of attacks by liberals). The ROC officially supports vaccination, the second person in the church (Metropolitan Hilarion) who was ill with covid then (after recovery) was vaccinated in September to give an example to others.

    Most likely Putin has some health problems that he hides from the public. Otherwise, we will have to admit that he is a member of a very strange sect that approves vaccinating everyone else, but prohibits vaccination for their co-religionists

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin, @Gerard.Gerard

    Well there’s various health rumors about Putin, but I have generally dismissed them all as ill-wishing conspiracy theories, considering they never panned out and that Putin’s relatives seem to have consistently lived very long lives (esp. by 20C Russian standards). In any case, basic point that catching Corona is worse than getting a vaccine stands, esp. if you DO have preexisting health problems.

    It doesn’t necessarily need to have religious motivations, vaccine skepticism is high amongst Soviet-style people too. (Decades of pushing atheism created a population highly susceptible to conspiracy theories and mystical thinking of all sorts as seen in the 1990s).

    • Replies: @melanf
    @Anatoly Karlin


    In any case, basic point that catching Corona is worse than getting a vaccine stands, esp. if you DO have preexisting health problems.
     
    According to the media, Putin lives in the strictest quarantine, and the few people who contact him pass tests for the crown every day

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    , @Mikhail
    @Anatoly Karlin


    It doesn’t necessarily need to have religious motivations, vaccine skepticism is high amongst Soviet-style people too. (Decades of pushing atheism created a population highly susceptible to conspiracy theories and mystical thinking of all sorts as seen in the 1990s).
     
    Not necessarily mythical to second guess the long term effects of these Covid-19 vaccines. "Science" changes, as evidenced by how antibiotics were once casually given for the common cold.
    , @g2k
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Suspect it's probably just a personal habit he seems to have where he's extremely private with all things to do with his health; machismo, presidential image, personal preference, who knows. He's probably had a few minor operations that nobody but a small clique knew about.


    Russia seems to have avoided the kind of hysteria which has paralysed Europe, so, as long as the vaccines are readily available and everybody who wants one can have one I don't see the need to get upset over a few refuseniks though I'm not going to die on a hill to defend them if the hysteria gets refocused on them instead of.....people sitting in parks drinking coffee (or whatever it is this week).

    Fwiw I'll take the vaccine at the first opportunity, and my stock argument in dealing with antivaxers is that they ought to go pet a dog... that's got rabies then we can continue the argument six months later. Advocates of zero-covid and forever lockdowns have a certain implicit antivaxx sentiment which you need to acknowledge: "Take the vaccine by all means, but lockdowns and social distancing need to continue for months anyway" is essentially saying that they don't work and it's as as antivaxx as some fool saying it'll alter your dna or let Bill Gates chip you or whatever. The difference is that the former have significantly more influence on policy.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

  152. @melanf
    @AltanBakshi


    This all is true, but you really couldn’t walk freely in the forests or mountains before the 19th century, they were everywhere full of beasts and sometimes vagabonds. We can’t even fathom how dangerous places they were.
     
    Animals are afraid of humans. For hundreds of thousands of years, they are genetically accustomed to fear humans as the most terrible predator. In this case, even the reserve "Cedar Pad" (in the Far East of Russia) where there are many tigers, leopards and black bears, it is quite safe for humans.


    Here is an exception - polar bears are not afraid of people (because they have almost no contact with them), and where they are, you have to put bars on the windows

    https://moya-planeta.ru/upload/images/xl/fe/bd/febd1f3168fd21ed1136cde39252132ed144f8b9.jpg

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Anatoly Karlin, @Gerard.Gerard

    Many wolves and even bears seem to be quite friendly with people. A long-term selection for bears/wolves that had good relations with human camps is not something I consider implausible.

    This after all is not an uncommon theme in Russian paintings:

    Grizzly Man communed with bears for 20 years before he was killed by one of them. There are quite a few places in the world and even in the US where he would, in all probability, have been killed by humans quite a lot sooner.

    Polar bears much more dangerous – sure. But even in their case:

    • Replies: @melanf
    @Anatoly Karlin



    Many wolves and even bears seem to be quite friendly with people.
     
    According to statistics, the absolute majority of wild predators run away at the sight of a person, a small percentage behaves friendly, another small percentage-aggressively. In the video, tourists feed a wild wolf with lard

    https://youtu.be/Be8gWRPZCcE
    , @A123
    @Anatoly Karlin


    Polar bears much more dangerous – sure.
     
    Especially with the SJW crowd attacking them based on race.... Imagine what they would do to an ORANGE bear...

    PEACE 😇

     
    https://i1.wp.com/www.powerlineblog.com/ed-assets/2021/02/ez91snomxpj61.jpg

     
    https://i0.wp.com/www.powerlineblog.com/ed-assets/2021/02/Screen-Shot-2021-02-24-at-3.35.40-PM.png

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

    , @Morton's toes
    @Anatoly Karlin

    https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/bear.jpg

    Bears can be domesticated. There is a monastery in Bosnia where the monks keep pet bears in honor of some hundreds-years-dead saint who they say hung out with friendly bears.

    Mothers with cubs and grizzlies should be avoided. Male black bears are harmless unless you are stupid. I will never be in a situation where I will see a polar bear and you shouldn't be either unless you are on a job with really great pay.

    Wolves, mountain lions whatnot are more afraid of humans than most humans are of them. When Daniel Boone settled Kentucky he wasn't afraid of any bears. He was afraid of Indians.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @songbird

    , @reiner Tor
    @Anatoly Karlin


    There are quite a few places in the world and even in the US where he would, in all probability, have been killed by humans quite a lot sooner.
     
    Those places have a lot more humans than Alaska has grizzlies, so it’s an unfair comparison. Probably the average bear is more dangerous than the average POC in Detroit.

    Replies: @songbird

    , @Abelard Lindsey
    @Anatoly Karlin

    I saw the Grizzly Man film. Grizzly man and his girlfriend died because he ignored his own knowledge of the bears when they went back in the fall. That summer was a draught, meaning less food than normal in any given area. That meant when fall came, the bears had to roam a lot further in order to eat, and bulk up, for the winter hibernation. Being around bears at this time is dangerous to begin with, and even more dangerous as a result of the draught. As a bear aficionado, he knew these facts, Yet, he completely disregarded them when he went back to his "area" that fall. There were other bears, ones unfamiliar with him, in the area (duh! because of the draught) that were the ones that killed him and his girlfriend.

    The Grizzly Man had a romanticized concept of nature and the animals that comprised it that was not consistent with reality. In the end, that is what killed him.

  153. @Kent Nationalist
    @reiner Tor


    there are women out there who do have sex with other women
     
    Women can't have sex with each other

    What are commonly known as lesbians (i.e. cohabiting middle-aged spinsters) do not even pretend to ('Lesbian bed death').

    What is depicted in these films as lesbianism (i.e. hot, feminine 20-30 year old women passionate for one another) does not exist. I have never met a genuine lesbian in my life. The head of the LGBTQ (etc) society at my university was a supposed 'lesbian' yet had a boyfriend at the time and for several years previously and I once recognised her at a nightclub snogging another man. From what I gathered, her one lesbian experience consisted of kissing her best friend once at a party in her last year of school.

    Replies: @dfordoom, @The Spirit of Enoch Powell, @reiner Tor, @Ray P

    I have never met a genuine lesbian in my life. The head of the LGBTQ (etc) society at my university was a supposed ‘lesbian’ yet had a boyfriend at the time and for several years previously and I once recognised her at a nightclub snogging another man. From what I gathered, her one lesbian experience consisted of kissing her best friend once at a party in her last year of school.

    LGBT Identification Rises to 5.6% in Latest U.S. Estimate

    Notice the rise in “bisexuals”

  154. @Anatoly Karlin
    @melanf

    Well there's various health rumors about Putin, but I have generally dismissed them all as ill-wishing conspiracy theories, considering they never panned out and that Putin's relatives seem to have consistently lived very long lives (esp. by 20C Russian standards). In any case, basic point that catching Corona is worse than getting a vaccine stands, esp. if you DO have preexisting health problems.

    It doesn't necessarily need to have religious motivations, vaccine skepticism is high amongst Soviet-style people too. (Decades of pushing atheism created a population highly susceptible to conspiracy theories and mystical thinking of all sorts as seen in the 1990s).

    Replies: @melanf, @Mikhail, @g2k

    In any case, basic point that catching Corona is worse than getting a vaccine stands, esp. if you DO have preexisting health problems.

    According to the media, Putin lives in the strictest quarantine, and the few people who contact him pass tests for the crown every day

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @melanf

    He is possibly having some health issues. Possibly something impacting immunity.

  155. @melanf
    @Gerard.Gerard


    Cmon melanf…. you are incorrect. I don’t know what it is for SP, but for much of the country antibody tests are an absolute requirement for being allowed to take the vaccine(if have antibodies then can’t vaccinate) .
     
    Where is this required? When I was vaccinated, they asked me only my last name - and nothing else (they didn't even require documents). People I know have been vaccinated without any tests. From other parts of the country, people write the same thing - tests are not required. Here is the official instruction:
    "PCR testing before vaccination is carried out only if there is documented contact with a COVID-19 patient and the person has any clinical manifestations of the disease"

    vaccination is slow because people are slow to go to vaccination centers, not because of the tests

    Replies: @AP, @Gerard.Gerard

    Well, my experience is different-although my region had relatively low deliveries of the vaccine until 3 weeks before now. I am probably biased from the situation 1 month before in my region (antitel test required) when I was motivated to get first dose in clinic but not, just as you say, applicable now – and certainly not to the places of higher availability as SP and Moscow.

    I would say that rules say its still recommended to get antibody test before and to not do vaccine if already had illness. Did they not at least ask if you have had an antitel test?

    Still, the following things are relevant:

    1. Very high rate of flu vaccinations in 2020 (75M+),which I would be very surprised if other white countries have a higher rate, does not indicate skepticism

    2. Seeing or hearing absolutely zero advertising encouraging to get SputnikV vaccine on road, TV, radio, papers, at work or anywhere does suggest the government at not seeing low vaccinations level

    3. If you have antibodies or already had the disease then it is a complete waste of resources and time to get the vaccine for the next 4-5 months

    4. Different vaccines like flu are recommended to not mix with coronavirus for time gap of less than 2 months

    5. Next season for coronavirus is expected only in autumn (though would need to receive both doses by 4-6 weeks before then to have developed immunity), so there is no rush

    6. For my western friends, antibody tests seem to be nonexistent, at least compared to us.

    7. You can add in weather and more places open in Russia compared to most western countries (bars, shops, schools…. that because they are unused are now places for vaccination in west) as reasons for illusion of non vaccinations in Russia. OK, your experience is in big shopping centre an

  156. @melanf
    @Anatoly Karlin


    In any case, basic point that catching Corona is worse than getting a vaccine stands, esp. if you DO have preexisting health problems.
     
    According to the media, Putin lives in the strictest quarantine, and the few people who contact him pass tests for the crown every day

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    He is possibly having some health issues. Possibly something impacting immunity.

  157. @EldnahYm
    @AltanBakshi


    This is so true, for people of the past nature was something dangerous and wild, to be tamed by human hands. Romanticist notion of nature was born later.
     
    Many groups of people also considered mountains holy, believe nature is full of spirits, etc. Maybe this is all consistent with the idea of nature being tamed, but it seems strange to me. Certainly in visual arts one can find an emphasis upon the vastness of mountains long before the Romantic movement. I don't see much sign of taming in most mountain paintings. I would also add that people can be thrilled by danger.

    I can go along with the idea that people who are living an easy life can afford the luxury of admiring scenes etc. But I think dfordoom (as usual) is overgeneralizing.

    I can of course appreciate both natural and man made objects, although I am firmly in the camp that the natural world is more beautiful. To me, preferring a painting or a building to a natural landscape is like preferring a painting of a beautiful woman to the real thing. I could come up with intellectual reasons for the idea, like a painting could be made to have less imperfections etc., but I can't actually fathom believing such a thing. To my puritanical mind, the idea seems depraved.

    https://www.youtube.com/embed/52uot1y9xb0?start=343&end=420

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @dfordoom

    Certainly in visual arts one can find an emphasis upon the vastness of mountains long before the Romantic movement.

    I do think the Romantic Movement marked a radical change in the way people looked at nature.

    I can go along with the idea that people who are living an easy life can afford the luxury of admiring scenes etc. But I think dfordoom (as usual) is overgeneralizing.

    I started out by making what I thought (in my innocence) were a couple of incredibly uncontroversial points – that aesthetic tastes vary and that it is possible to find beauty in man-made things, that it is possible to see beauty in the artificial as well as in the natural. I expressed, quite honestly, my own personal preferences. I made it very clear that I was not making any sort of value on judgment on people whose aesthetic tastes differ from mine.

    I guess I was making a plea for tolerance of differing views on aesthetics. I didn’t realise that aesthetics was a burning moral and political issue.

    To me, preferring a painting or a building to a natural landscape is like preferring a painting of a beautiful woman to the real thing.

    It’s called have differing aesthetic tastes. It’s not something to be threatened by. Apparently I’ve committed a crime against Aesthetic Correctness. I didn’t realise that not liking natural landscapes made me a bad person.

    I’d also like to stress that I’m not an apologist for Modernism. I think 90% of Modernist architecture and 98% of Modernist painting is ghastly. I love 19th century academic art, 19th century neoclassicist art and 19th century Symbolist art. I like the Gothic Revival style. Oddly enough I’m not the biggest fan of neoclassicist architecture but I love neoclassicist painting. I dislike the Impressionists. I’m suspicious of the Romantics, although I’m a huge fan of Caspar David Friedrich’s paintings. On the whole my artistic tastes are very old-fashioned.

    There is however some Modernist architecture that I really really like. And personally I do prefer cityscapes to natural landscapes.

    To my puritanical mind, the idea seems depraved.

    I find it very difficult to see aesthetics as a moral question. Do you think it’s a moral question?

    • Replies: @AaronB
    @dfordoom

    I don't have much time to write, but...

    You certainly aren't a bad person for disliking nature and I'm not going to abuse you :) , but aesthetics seems to me to go deeper than mere accident.

    When we say something is beautiful we mean "this is good for me" and when we say it's ugly we mean "this is bad for me". Or so it seems to me at least. We are making a judgement on the subconscious level.

    So in some sense you are really saying that natural environments are bad for you - which is interesting because this has been a major distinguishing strand in Western thought, the War Against Nature, of seeing nature as Other and as mankind outside and above it, cut off and alienated from it.

    (and I am saying I feel at home in natural environments and feel myself a part of the whole, connected to it nourished by it on a profound level as the source of my being)

    In my opinion, this war against nature has led to the concept of subduing and dominating it, to science, the devastation of natural environments, and then to the war against human nature which culminated in things like Puritanism, Calvinism, the anti-fun movement, and all the various neuroses, anxieties, and the general sense of being repressed and unhappy in modern times.

    People who fear nature fear nature in themselves - and tend to see themselves as outside and above nature, and become alienated and alone in a dead, sterile world; the condition of modern man. They cut themselves off from the Whole.

    Again not a moral condemnation and I would defend your right to never see nature again jn your life :)

    As for Romanticism, it was hardly the first apprecation of nature. The Far East was in love with nature from the begining, and the Pagans thought every river had its nymph and forest it's fauna. The Pagans loved nature.

    The Christian Dark Ages in part turned against nature because it was Pagan, and Christianity is famous for having introduced the division between man and nature. Nature was evil to them. However I believe this is a bad misinterpretation of true Christianity and more a political reaction against Paganism.

    St Francis of Assisi was a great lover of nature, and all those hermits in the deserts and forests, and all those monasteries in especially beautiful natural landscapes... :) Seems to me the heart went where the mouth said it shouldn't.

    Already in the Renaissance Petrarch was writing of his sheer delight in wandering the local woods.

    Romantic love of nature arose precisely when the mechanistic and anti Nature strand in Western culture reached a crescendo, as a counterpoint.

    I think the alienation and malaise of modernity will only heal when Western man reconciles with Nature and once again sees himself as part of the While, and not as outside and above it, or cut off from it, and likewise reconciles with his inner nature.

    After all, urbanism is like 8,000 years old or something - a mere blip in the hundreds of thousands of years man spent in nature experiencing himself as part of the whole.

    But in the meantime I would fully support the establishment of communities of people like you who wish to live only in a man made environment :)

    And now I must continue my journey into the beauties of nature...

    Replies: @Coconuts, @blatnoi

  158. @AltanBakshi
    @EldnahYm


    Many groups of people also considered mountains holy, believe nature is full of spirits, etc. Maybe this is all consistent with the idea of nature being tamed, but it seems strange to me. Certainly in visual arts one can find an emphasis upon the vastness of mountains long before the Romantic movement. I don’t see much sign of taming in most mountain paintings. I would also add that people can be thrilled by danger.
     
    This all is true, but you really couldn't walk freely in the forests or mountains before the 19th century, they were everywhere full of beasts and sometimes vagabonds. We can't even fathom how dangerous places they were. Even in thinly populated modern countries like Sweden, Russia, Finland bear and wolf populations are carefully kept small and in check. Wolfs and Bears are not stupid, their mentality must nowadays be quite different of those wolves and bears of the past, who were against men armed with bows and polearms. Anyway in my knowledge Medieval Europeans didn't paint any landscape paintings depicting mountains or forests like Chinese or Japanese did, even during renaissance intricate depictions of nature were just a background art for important people. I don't know exactly what was the Orthodox attitude towards the nature in the olden times, but I know very well that for Protestants Nature was something given by God to Man, so that Man could rule the nature, tame and control it, so that he could forge order out of chaos.

    I myself have quite utilitarian attitude with the nature, I grew up in country where there are lots of forests and nature, as did both of my parents, beginning from my childhood years I have spent lots of time in the forests, so to me they dont have anything special in them, in army we had long training camps in forest, living in small tents during winter in a very cold climate near the sea, after such I cant enjoy camping much, why I should force myself to live again like some filthy animal? Camping in nature is no fun, but trekking is nice, especially if you have a cottage where you can spend your nights. Best experience is when faith, sport and beauty meet, which is for me the Buddhist areas of Inner Asia, where the land does not just have a natural beauty in it, but also there's a Sacral Geometry, or how you say it in English? You know Holy mountains, lakes, caves and small temples and trekking to such places where Buddhist sages and saints have lived, in such circumstances my trekking has a spiritual significance, its not just only a sport or having a fun as a tourist, but a pilgrimage!

    Replies: @melanf, @EldnahYm, @Mr. Hack, @reiner Tor

    In the Western world, many people take up hiking as a way to leave their natural cityscapes behind and be able to commune more intimately with mother nature. People with time and money on their hands schedule vacations to more exotic locales with the purpose to climb a mountain or to even watch birds that they wouldn’t normally be able to see in their own neck of the woods. While visiting the pristine Osa peninsula in Costa Rica, I was able to take a boat trip into the sea where after about an hour, I found myself in the midst of a huge congregation of dolphins surrounding our boat (500-600 dolphins). Some passengers jumped into the water and had intimate contact with these beautiful animals. Another time, I witnessed the raw and humbling experience of mother nature when upon waking up from a nap, our cabin was soon besieged by thousand of “army ants” out on a patrol. They left after about an hour, and luckily they didn’t return from what I’ve been told could be millions of such ants out for a more complete and engaging outing.

  159. • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Shortsword

    That’s hubris. He thinks that America can win against China (whose economy is going to be bigger than the American economy) allied to Russia, while antagonizing all of its minor allies unless they toe the American ideological line. I guess on top of this he’s a purist internally as well, enforcing diversity wherever possible, and not expecting performance to drop.

    I think the only thing stopping this ideology will be cold hard military defeat. Although perhaps there’s a chance of them running out of steam peacefully, I just cannot imagine how. I’ve seen only increasing radicalization both internally and externally.

  160. @Anatoly Karlin
    @melanf

    Many wolves and even bears seem to be quite friendly with people. A long-term selection for bears/wolves that had good relations with human camps is not something I consider implausible.

    This after all is not an uncommon theme in Russian paintings:

    https://foma.ru/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/0005-Medved-copy.jpg

    Grizzly Man communed with bears for 20 years before he was killed by one of them. There are quite a few places in the world and even in the US where he would, in all probability, have been killed by humans quite a lot sooner.

    Polar bears much more dangerous - sure. But even in their case:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7rZTZBOrqQ

    Replies: @melanf, @A123, @Morton's toes, @reiner Tor, @Abelard Lindsey

    Many wolves and even bears seem to be quite friendly with people.

    According to statistics, the absolute majority of wild predators run away at the sight of a person, a small percentage behaves friendly, another small percentage-aggressively. In the video, tourists feed a wild wolf with lard

  161. @dfordoom
    @AP


    I find that “organic-seeming” architecture made by people more connected to the natural world (such as the builders of the Gothic cathedrals) is more beautiful than modernist works made by people who are disconnected from the natural world.
     
    That's a valid preference, although it's not my preference.

    I see nature as ugly and depressing and I see art as a valiant attempt to create beauty in an ugly world. At least that's how I see the function of art.

    Of course the artistic establishment stopped believing in any kind of beauty a hundred years ago.

    But some modernist architects (and I emphasise some) did still manage to create beauty. Most just created ugliness, but not all.

    I don't dislike “organic-seeming” architecture. An artist (or an architect) can take the ugliness of nature and create something beautiful out of it.

    Natural things are more beautiful when the chaos of nature is moulded into some kind of order. Forests are ugly, but formal gardens are beautiful.

    I don't subscribe to the Cult of Nature, which I consider to be one of the many pernicious legacies of the Romantic Movement.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @AP, @songbird, @Not Only Wrathful

    Forests are ugly

    Cathedrals of light.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @songbird

    Exactly. Light, energy, information. An old forest that has not been extensively logged for generations is a wonderful place. The mature ecosystems have everything in its due place it is highly organized and optimized, while still allowing for the maximal possible biodiversity.

    https://images.app.goo.gl/RQvCnQFxLNbcx6RS6

    Save constant repair, modern human cities won't last for a hundred years. A forest would last millenia if left to itself.

  162. @AP
    @SafeNow

    Central Park is really beautiful though, not a formal garden, but cultivated nature at its best. Just ignore the rats and crowds.

    Replies: @Mikhail

    In addition to raccoons and coyotes – the latter likely in the category of coywolves.

  163. @Anatoly Karlin
    @melanf

    Well there's various health rumors about Putin, but I have generally dismissed them all as ill-wishing conspiracy theories, considering they never panned out and that Putin's relatives seem to have consistently lived very long lives (esp. by 20C Russian standards). In any case, basic point that catching Corona is worse than getting a vaccine stands, esp. if you DO have preexisting health problems.

    It doesn't necessarily need to have religious motivations, vaccine skepticism is high amongst Soviet-style people too. (Decades of pushing atheism created a population highly susceptible to conspiracy theories and mystical thinking of all sorts as seen in the 1990s).

    Replies: @melanf, @Mikhail, @g2k

    It doesn’t necessarily need to have religious motivations, vaccine skepticism is high amongst Soviet-style people too. (Decades of pushing atheism created a population highly susceptible to conspiracy theories and mystical thinking of all sorts as seen in the 1990s).

    Not necessarily mythical to second guess the long term effects of these Covid-19 vaccines. “Science” changes, as evidenced by how antibiotics were once casually given for the common cold.

  164. What is remarkable is that Central Park had not been sold off yet to earn money for the City, and right now it is just a park, considering that the land under it must be worth hundreds of billions for the City.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Znzn

    Only high status people live near the park - they would protect it, to protect their status. Not to mention, there is a reservoir there, and it would be a bad idea to get rid of it.

    , @Mikhail
    @Znzn

    Parks like that can have all sorts of structures built on it. A suburban park comes to mind. Over the past 25 years, it has seen the construction of a swim complex, ice skating rink and miniature golf course.

  165. @dfordoom
    @EldnahYm


    Certainly in visual arts one can find an emphasis upon the vastness of mountains long before the Romantic movement.
     
    I do think the Romantic Movement marked a radical change in the way people looked at nature.

    I can go along with the idea that people who are living an easy life can afford the luxury of admiring scenes etc. But I think dfordoom (as usual) is overgeneralizing.
     
    I started out by making what I thought (in my innocence) were a couple of incredibly uncontroversial points - that aesthetic tastes vary and that it is possible to find beauty in man-made things, that it is possible to see beauty in the artificial as well as in the natural. I expressed, quite honestly, my own personal preferences. I made it very clear that I was not making any sort of value on judgment on people whose aesthetic tastes differ from mine.

    I guess I was making a plea for tolerance of differing views on aesthetics. I didn't realise that aesthetics was a burning moral and political issue.

    To me, preferring a painting or a building to a natural landscape is like preferring a painting of a beautiful woman to the real thing.
     
    It's called have differing aesthetic tastes. It's not something to be threatened by. Apparently I've committed a crime against Aesthetic Correctness. I didn't realise that not liking natural landscapes made me a bad person.

    I'd also like to stress that I'm not an apologist for Modernism. I think 90% of Modernist architecture and 98% of Modernist painting is ghastly. I love 19th century academic art, 19th century neoclassicist art and 19th century Symbolist art. I like the Gothic Revival style. Oddly enough I'm not the biggest fan of neoclassicist architecture but I love neoclassicist painting. I dislike the Impressionists. I'm suspicious of the Romantics, although I'm a huge fan of Caspar David Friedrich's paintings. On the whole my artistic tastes are very old-fashioned.

    There is however some Modernist architecture that I really really like. And personally I do prefer cityscapes to natural landscapes.

    To my puritanical mind, the idea seems depraved.
     
    I find it very difficult to see aesthetics as a moral question. Do you think it's a moral question?

    Replies: @AaronB

    I don’t have much time to write, but…

    You certainly aren’t a bad person for disliking nature and I’m not going to abuse you 🙂 , but aesthetics seems to me to go deeper than mere accident.

    When we say something is beautiful we mean “this is good for me” and when we say it’s ugly we mean “this is bad for me”. Or so it seems to me at least. We are making a judgement on the subconscious level.

    So in some sense you are really saying that natural environments are bad for you – which is interesting because this has been a major distinguishing strand in Western thought, the War Against Nature, of seeing nature as Other and as mankind outside and above it, cut off and alienated from it.

    (and I am saying I feel at home in natural environments and feel myself a part of the whole, connected to it nourished by it on a profound level as the source of my being)

    In my opinion, this war against nature has led to the concept of subduing and dominating it, to science, the devastation of natural environments, and then to the war against human nature which culminated in things like Puritanism, Calvinism, the anti-fun movement, and all the various neuroses, anxieties, and the general sense of being repressed and unhappy in modern times.

    People who fear nature fear nature in themselves – and tend to see themselves as outside and above nature, and become alienated and alone in a dead, sterile world; the condition of modern man. They cut themselves off from the Whole.

    Again not a moral condemnation and I would defend your right to never see nature again jn your life 🙂

    As for Romanticism, it was hardly the first apprecation of nature. The Far East was in love with nature from the begining, and the Pagans thought every river had its nymph and forest it’s fauna. The Pagans loved nature.

    The Christian Dark Ages in part turned against nature because it was Pagan, and Christianity is famous for having introduced the division between man and nature. Nature was evil to them. However I believe this is a bad misinterpretation of true Christianity and more a political reaction against Paganism.

    St Francis of Assisi was a great lover of nature, and all those hermits in the deserts and forests, and all those monasteries in especially beautiful natural landscapes… 🙂 Seems to me the heart went where the mouth said it shouldn’t.

    Already in the Renaissance Petrarch was writing of his sheer delight in wandering the local woods.

    Romantic love of nature arose precisely when the mechanistic and anti Nature strand in Western culture reached a crescendo, as a counterpoint.

    I think the alienation and malaise of modernity will only heal when Western man reconciles with Nature and once again sees himself as part of the While, and not as outside and above it, or cut off from it, and likewise reconciles with his inner nature.

    After all, urbanism is like 8,000 years old or something – a mere blip in the hundreds of thousands of years man spent in nature experiencing himself as part of the whole.

    But in the meantime I would fully support the establishment of communities of people like you who wish to live only in a man made environment 🙂

    And now I must continue my journey into the beauties of nature…

    • Replies: @Coconuts
    @AaronB


    The Christian Dark Ages in part turned against nature because it was Pagan, and Christianity is famous for having introduced the division between man and nature. Nature was evil to them. However I believe this is a bad misinterpretation of true Christianity and more a political reaction against Paganism.
     
    Did anyone have the idea of 'nature' vs. 'man' before the 18th century? As far as I know belief that nature or material creation was evil was considered a heresy by Christians in this period; it was linked to Manicheanism.

    Replies: @dfordoom, @AaronB

    , @blatnoi
    @AaronB

    Does your exploration into the beauties of nature include flesh scarring fungus, leeches, bacterial infections, parasites that live in your eye, malaria, and tapeworms by any chance?

    While it's great to get spiritual sustenance from nature, nature does not reciprocate and it sees you in purely neutral terms. As a source of sustenance that is part of its food chain for predators big and small. It's only sedentary civilization and the resulting urbanism, when people had a few free evenings free from damp, hunger, and disease, that has allowed your philosophical musings on nature to develop.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @dfordoom, @silviosilver, @AaronB

  166. @songbird
    @dfordoom


    Forests are ugly
     
    Cathedrals of light.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    Exactly. Light, energy, information. An old forest that has not been extensively logged for generations is a wonderful place. The mature ecosystems have everything in its due place it is highly organized and optimized, while still allowing for the maximal possible biodiversity.

    https://images.app.goo.gl/RQvCnQFxLNbcx6RS6

    Save constant repair, modern human cities won’t last for a hundred years. A forest would last millenia if left to itself.

    • Agree: songbird
  167. @Anatoly Karlin
    @melanf

    Many wolves and even bears seem to be quite friendly with people. A long-term selection for bears/wolves that had good relations with human camps is not something I consider implausible.

    This after all is not an uncommon theme in Russian paintings:

    https://foma.ru/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/0005-Medved-copy.jpg

    Grizzly Man communed with bears for 20 years before he was killed by one of them. There are quite a few places in the world and even in the US where he would, in all probability, have been killed by humans quite a lot sooner.

    Polar bears much more dangerous - sure. But even in their case:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7rZTZBOrqQ

    Replies: @melanf, @A123, @Morton's toes, @reiner Tor, @Abelard Lindsey

    Polar bears much more dangerous – sure.

    Especially with the SJW crowd attacking them based on race…. Imagine what they would do to an ORANGE bear…

    PEACE 😇

     

     

    • Thanks: That Would Be Telling
    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    @A123

    It doesn't matter if a bear is black or white so long as it catches mice.


    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcSQWbkiKkKur-bfdjhOs6UVOqhU3gU31KwwgQ&usqp.jpg

  168. @Znzn
    What is remarkable is that Central Park had not been sold off yet to earn money for the City, and right now it is just a park, considering that the land under it must be worth hundreds of billions for the City.

    Replies: @songbird, @Mikhail

    Only high status people live near the park – they would protect it, to protect their status. Not to mention, there is a reservoir there, and it would be a bad idea to get rid of it.

  169. @128
    I guess if Counterpunch were to host an author who says that airplanes and cars are secret aliens from outer space that are a threat to Earth then the publication bears at least some responsibility for the quality of the works of the author? Does some webzine bear zero responsibility at all in terms of the quality of the articles and authors that it allows to be posted on its pages, that it as control over, with no obligation to police the quality of any articles posted? I mean if a webzine were to posts articles by an author about how penicillin for pets is a secret plot to turn their DNA into stone, should the owners of the webzine have some accountability with regards to the lack of the use of proper discretion in terms of which articles should be allowed to be posted? Are people categorically arguing as a policy that a website should not be able to exert some form of control over which articles by people it allows to be posted on its website, some of which may affect its reputation?

    Replies: @Hyperborean, @Mikhail, @reiner Tor

    Does some webzine bear zero responsibility at all in terms of the quality of the articles and authors that it allows to be posted on its pages

    Are you talking about the Unz Review or something else?

  170. @dfordoom
    @Mikel


    I guess being in nature is for me a way to try to find happiness in life and at least to some extent it works.
     
    Being in nature makes me anxious and depressed. But a lot of people seem to enjoy it, so good luck to them.

    On the whole I find more beauty in artificial things than in natural things. To me a gothic cathedral is more beautiful than a mountain. There are even some modernist buildings (such as Saarinen's TWA terminal in New York) they I find more beautiful than forests.

    Whatever floats your boat.

    Replies: @AP, @reiner Tor

    Is the beauty of a cathedral even comparable to the beauty of a forest or a mountain? I find it strange to exclude whole categories of beauty, I’d find it a tragedy to lose either.

    I also like little things like the yellow and brown leaves on the ground at a playground, which is a little piece of nature with lots of concrete around it.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @reiner Tor


    Is the beauty of a cathedral even comparable to the beauty of a forest or a mountain?
     
    I think so, yes. I think it's weird to argue that natural beauty must somehow be superior to artificially created beauty.

    I think the Cult of Nature is to some extent a symptom of the increasing self-hatred of western civilisation. It seems to me to be a desire to disparage the human ability to create beauty. And a desire to disparage the achievements of civilisation. The striving to create beauty and order is what makes a civilisation.

    Civilisation is a precious thing. But it's something that we in the West increasingly despise. We've lost confidence in civilisation, which is tragic.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @Anatoly Karlin, @reiner Tor

  171. @Abelard Lindsey
    @g2k

    Lockdowns are based on fake science.

    https://www.bworldonline.com/its-final-lockdowns-dont-work/

    Consider also that most "science" cannot be replicated and, therefor, cannot be considered legitimate science.

    https://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=241683

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    I wonder, how do viruses spread, if lockdowns don’t work?

    The study seems quite dubious to me, comparing very low population density Sweden with a generally very disciplined population (who keep a distance from each other, pandemic or not) to high population density countries like Italy or the Netherlands. South Korea is mentioned in both, so it’s unclear whether it was considered a country with or without a lockdown. But clearly South Korea did lots of things not done in the West, they did restrict individual freedom in substantial ways, so I’m not sure why it’s supposed to be an example of a hands off approach.

  172. @Znzn
    What is remarkable is that Central Park had not been sold off yet to earn money for the City, and right now it is just a park, considering that the land under it must be worth hundreds of billions for the City.

    Replies: @songbird, @Mikhail

    Parks like that can have all sorts of structures built on it. A suburban park comes to mind. Over the past 25 years, it has seen the construction of a swim complex, ice skating rink and miniature golf course.

  173. @Morton's toes
    @dfordoom

    I have two hobbies: reading obscure books and walking in the woods. If you do not like walking in the woods I will not bore you. But this might be of passing interest: in The Greeks and the Irrational by Eric Dodds he offers as a passing and insignificant observation that in ancient times almost all experience by men of divine inspiration or divine experience or the transcendental occurred by old guys walking by themselves in the hills or in the mountains. Dodds was an atheist and this meant nothing to him. He has a preliminary apologetic disclaimer like he is sure this bit of trivia would interest almost nobody.

    https://www.amazon.com/Greeks-Irrational-Sather-Classical-Lectures/dp/0520242300

    Replies: @silviosilver

    I have two hobbies: reading obscure books and walking in the woods.

    Do you really walk in the woods though? I like to tell myself the same thing, but the reality is I’m just walking through parkland. My favorite trail is heavily wooded and runs by a river on one side and a golf course on the other. There are sports grounds close by (football, netball, cricket), and if I go walking at dusk I can hear referee whistles in the distance and I can see the headlights of cars as parents arrive to pick up the kids from training, so even if I’m walking along a portion of the trail where it’s where to encounter other people, there are plenty of other reminders that human activity is taking place very nearby. That’s quite different to what a walk in the woods meant for most of human history.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @silviosilver

    During a long mountain hike (70 km) I once met on a trail an old trekker who was walking alone for some 250 km already. He was 66 years old. He told me that the previous year he walked 1200 km on different trails. I believe him. During this hike we met a few elks and saw traces of lynx and bear. I also know that there are wolves in that area. The old man was all alone and he did not seem afraid of anything.

    I walked trails with my children: my six old son walked 16km in a day, my 11 years son walked 24 km of difficult mountain terrain in 2 days, when he was 14 we walked 32 km of forested highland in two days. He often says that these were very good experiences that he truly liked.

    , @reiner Tor
    @silviosilver

    Obviously people who like walking in the woods actually like walking along paths maintained by the local forestry department. The woods should have a comfortable presence of humans, like not so many wild beasts (especially not aggressive ones, nor too many and/or too large insects and similar creatures) and relative proximity to civilization.

    But that way it could be something which people find superior to a big city, especially if they do live in a big city. Would they live in the forest, and the city would be a good experience a couple times a month.

  174. @Anatoly Karlin
    @melanf

    Many wolves and even bears seem to be quite friendly with people. A long-term selection for bears/wolves that had good relations with human camps is not something I consider implausible.

    This after all is not an uncommon theme in Russian paintings:

    https://foma.ru/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/0005-Medved-copy.jpg

    Grizzly Man communed with bears for 20 years before he was killed by one of them. There are quite a few places in the world and even in the US where he would, in all probability, have been killed by humans quite a lot sooner.

    Polar bears much more dangerous - sure. But even in their case:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7rZTZBOrqQ

    Replies: @melanf, @A123, @Morton's toes, @reiner Tor, @Abelard Lindsey


    Bears can be domesticated. There is a monastery in Bosnia where the monks keep pet bears in honor of some hundreds-years-dead saint who they say hung out with friendly bears.

    Mothers with cubs and grizzlies should be avoided. Male black bears are harmless unless you are stupid. I will never be in a situation where I will see a polar bear and you shouldn’t be either unless you are on a job with really great pay.

    Wolves, mountain lions whatnot are more afraid of humans than most humans are of them. When Daniel Boone settled Kentucky he wasn’t afraid of any bears. He was afraid of Indians.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @Morton's toes


    He was afraid of Indians
     
    And I am pretty sure that these Indians were not afraid of bears and wolves either.
    , @songbird
    @Morton's toes


    Bears can be domesticated.
     
    Technically, you mean "tamed." Domestication involves selective breeding and genetic changes leading to certain common traits. Though arguably, being able to be tamed suggests the possibility of being able to be domesticated.

    Wolves, mountain lions whatnot are more afraid of humans than most humans are of them.
     
    Partly, depends on height and mass. Many aren't afraid of kids - and young children working the fields is one reason for higher attacks in the Middle Ages. Many children are still attacked by wolves in India. When mountain lions attack, it is commonly women joggers under 5 feet tall. They would not attack a "jogger" like Ahmaud Arbery.

    Replies: @Morton's toes

  175. @silviosilver
    @Morton's toes


    I have two hobbies: reading obscure books and walking in the woods.
     
    Do you really walk in the woods though? I like to tell myself the same thing, but the reality is I'm just walking through parkland. My favorite trail is heavily wooded and runs by a river on one side and a golf course on the other. There are sports grounds close by (football, netball, cricket), and if I go walking at dusk I can hear referee whistles in the distance and I can see the headlights of cars as parents arrive to pick up the kids from training, so even if I'm walking along a portion of the trail where it's where to encounter other people, there are plenty of other reminders that human activity is taking place very nearby. That's quite different to what a walk in the woods meant for most of human history.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @reiner Tor

    During a long mountain hike (70 km) I once met on a trail an old trekker who was walking alone for some 250 km already. He was 66 years old. He told me that the previous year he walked 1200 km on different trails. I believe him. During this hike we met a few elks and saw traces of lynx and bear. I also know that there are wolves in that area. The old man was all alone and he did not seem afraid of anything.

    I walked trails with my children: my six old son walked 16km in a day, my 11 years son walked 24 km of difficult mountain terrain in 2 days, when he was 14 we walked 32 km of forested highland in two days. He often says that these were very good experiences that he truly liked.

  176. @Morton's toes
    @Anatoly Karlin

    https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/bear.jpg

    Bears can be domesticated. There is a monastery in Bosnia where the monks keep pet bears in honor of some hundreds-years-dead saint who they say hung out with friendly bears.

    Mothers with cubs and grizzlies should be avoided. Male black bears are harmless unless you are stupid. I will never be in a situation where I will see a polar bear and you shouldn't be either unless you are on a job with really great pay.

    Wolves, mountain lions whatnot are more afraid of humans than most humans are of them. When Daniel Boone settled Kentucky he wasn't afraid of any bears. He was afraid of Indians.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @songbird

    He was afraid of Indians

    And I am pretty sure that these Indians were not afraid of bears and wolves either.

  177. @reiner Tor
    @dfordoom

    Is the beauty of a cathedral even comparable to the beauty of a forest or a mountain? I find it strange to exclude whole categories of beauty, I’d find it a tragedy to lose either.

    I also like little things like the yellow and brown leaves on the ground at a playground, which is a little piece of nature with lots of concrete around it.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    Is the beauty of a cathedral even comparable to the beauty of a forest or a mountain?

    I think so, yes. I think it’s weird to argue that natural beauty must somehow be superior to artificially created beauty.

    I think the Cult of Nature is to some extent a symptom of the increasing self-hatred of western civilisation. It seems to me to be a desire to disparage the human ability to create beauty. And a desire to disparage the achievements of civilisation. The striving to create beauty and order is what makes a civilisation.

    Civilisation is a precious thing. But it’s something that we in the West increasingly despise. We’ve lost confidence in civilisation, which is tragic.

    • Agree: blatnoi
    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @dfordoom


    Civilisation is a precious thing. But it’s something that we in the West increasingly despise. We’ve lost confidence in civilisation, which is tragic.
     
    This is correct.
    , @Anatoly Karlin
    @dfordoom

    Well, they're arguably best in combination and complementarity to each other. Who wouldn't want to live here?

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EeD3tEEU8AEZS-N.jpg

    Replies: @Shortsword, @Bashibuzuk, @Blinky Bill

    , @reiner Tor
    @dfordoom

    I find it weird to even think there could be a choice. What is more pleasant, eating a menu in a Michelin star restaurant or listening to a Beethoven string quartet? Is sex better than the ability to read books? Is sunbathing better than doing pull-ups? I find these questions silly.

    Replies: @dfordoom

  178. @dfordoom
    @reiner Tor


    Is the beauty of a cathedral even comparable to the beauty of a forest or a mountain?
     
    I think so, yes. I think it's weird to argue that natural beauty must somehow be superior to artificially created beauty.

    I think the Cult of Nature is to some extent a symptom of the increasing self-hatred of western civilisation. It seems to me to be a desire to disparage the human ability to create beauty. And a desire to disparage the achievements of civilisation. The striving to create beauty and order is what makes a civilisation.

    Civilisation is a precious thing. But it's something that we in the West increasingly despise. We've lost confidence in civilisation, which is tragic.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @Anatoly Karlin, @reiner Tor

    Civilisation is a precious thing. But it’s something that we in the West increasingly despise. We’ve lost confidence in civilisation, which is tragic.

    This is correct.

  179. @melanf
    @Anatoly Karlin


    One persistent point that anti-vaxxers make and which I have no real response to though is why Putin hasn’t publicly taken Sputnik V himself.
    I suppose that as a religious conservative boomer he might well be an anti-vaxxer himself although one who doesn’t want to signal it.
     
    This is unlikely. It was Putin who pushed for vaccination in an accelerated manner (which was the subject of attacks by liberals). The ROC officially supports vaccination, the second person in the church (Metropolitan Hilarion) who was ill with covid then (after recovery) was vaccinated in September to give an example to others.

    Most likely Putin has some health problems that he hides from the public. Otherwise, we will have to admit that he is a member of a very strange sect that approves vaccinating everyone else, but prohibits vaccination for their co-religionists

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin, @Gerard.Gerard

    1. At least 1 of VVP’s daughters has had SputnikV doses at early stage

    2. He may just have natural immunity to it and not want to appear a showoff by not requiring SputnikV , or have had the disease already (many at the top level of government and in Presidential administration have) and want to wait the recommended time before receiving vaccine….plus there are about a million security reasons why he may not want to publicise that.

    3. VVP could easily just lie about having the vaccine anyway – particularly after the freakshow of Poroshenko and Zelensky getting drug tested for TV before a “debate”, Russian public not desperate for gratification to see if VVP vaccinated or not

    • Replies: @melanf
    @Gerard.Gerard


    He may just have natural immunity...
     
    Even with 100% immunity, he had to (for the sake of his own political image) be publicly vaccinated in August-September
  180. @Morton's toes
    @Anatoly Karlin

    https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/10/bear.jpg

    Bears can be domesticated. There is a monastery in Bosnia where the monks keep pet bears in honor of some hundreds-years-dead saint who they say hung out with friendly bears.

    Mothers with cubs and grizzlies should be avoided. Male black bears are harmless unless you are stupid. I will never be in a situation where I will see a polar bear and you shouldn't be either unless you are on a job with really great pay.

    Wolves, mountain lions whatnot are more afraid of humans than most humans are of them. When Daniel Boone settled Kentucky he wasn't afraid of any bears. He was afraid of Indians.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @songbird

    Bears can be domesticated.

    Technically, you mean “tamed.” Domestication involves selective breeding and genetic changes leading to certain common traits. Though arguably, being able to be tamed suggests the possibility of being able to be domesticated.

    Wolves, mountain lions whatnot are more afraid of humans than most humans are of them.

    Partly, depends on height and mass. Many aren’t afraid of kids – and young children working the fields is one reason for higher attacks in the Middle Ages. Many children are still attacked by wolves in India. When mountain lions attack, it is commonly women joggers under 5 feet tall. They would not attack a “jogger” like Ahmaud Arbery.

    • Replies: @Morton's toes
    @songbird


    selective breeding and genetic changes leading to certain common traits.
     
    I would suppose the Bosnian monks de-select the feistier bears. They have been keeping the bears for many generations.

    The last time I saw a mountain lion it took one look at me and took off in the opposite direction at 100 m per 8 sec. He or she could have passed Usain Bolt. I am average size in my zip code though in the Netherlands I would be short. The last attack on a human that I know of was in Washington state and it was a mountain biker and a mountain lion who had some kind of wasting disease that had taken out its normal ability. Normal healthy mountain lions never attack normal healthy humans around where I have been.
  181. @Bashibuzuk
    @dfordoom


    I see nature as ugly and depressing
     
    Few things are more beautiful than a mature forest. I don't think anything humans have ever created can compare with that.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    I don’t think that we need to choose; they are beautiful in different ways. It’s also clear that without nature there could be no mankind and thus no art whatsoever, so it seems silly to choose art over nature, but I digress.

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
  182. @Kent Nationalist
    @reiner Tor


    there are women out there who do have sex with other women
     
    Women can't have sex with each other

    What are commonly known as lesbians (i.e. cohabiting middle-aged spinsters) do not even pretend to ('Lesbian bed death').

    What is depicted in these films as lesbianism (i.e. hot, feminine 20-30 year old women passionate for one another) does not exist. I have never met a genuine lesbian in my life. The head of the LGBTQ (etc) society at my university was a supposed 'lesbian' yet had a boyfriend at the time and for several years previously and I once recognised her at a nightclub snogging another man. From what I gathered, her one lesbian experience consisted of kissing her best friend once at a party in her last year of school.

    Replies: @dfordoom, @The Spirit of Enoch Powell, @reiner Tor, @Ray P

    Women can’t have sex with each other

    It depends on a Clintonesque definition of sex. They certainly can be naked while causing sexual pleasure to each other, whether with the help of their tongues, fingers, or certain tools, is immaterial. What matters is that it can to a very large extent be a substitute for actual intercourse with a man, and some women engage in it regularly.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @reiner Tor

    I feel like there is such a thing as a bull-dyke. That is, one has certain physical and behavioral characteristics, and therefore, there is such a thing, as a lesbian.

    Though, perhaps, Sailer is right with his theory that when men were tougher, they could put bull-dykes in their place and so bull-dykes got amorous with them. It is interesting to consider the historical examples of women in hetero relationships enlisting with their male lovers in pirate crews or armies, and not being found out - it suggests to me that they were not very feminine-looking, and possibly what we would consider butches today.

    I theorize that the number of true female lesbians is lower than male gays due to them having two X chromosomes.

  183. @Bashibuzuk
    @reiner Tor

    Animals usually avoid humans the best they can. They know we are a source of trouble.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    If you are not loud enough, you can get surprisingly close to bears. It does occasionally happen to tourists that they get in between a female bear and her cubs. Which could easily result in a ferocious attack by the bear.

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
  184. @Gerard.Gerard
    @melanf

    1. At least 1 of VVP's daughters has had SputnikV doses at early stage

    2. He may just have natural immunity to it and not want to appear a showoff by not requiring SputnikV , or have had the disease already (many at the top level of government and in Presidential administration have) and want to wait the recommended time before receiving vaccine....plus there are about a million security reasons why he may not want to publicise that.

    3. VVP could easily just lie about having the vaccine anyway - particularly after the freakshow of Poroshenko and Zelensky getting drug tested for TV before a "debate", Russian public not desperate for gratification to see if VVP vaccinated or not

    Replies: @melanf

    He may just have natural immunity…

    Even with 100% immunity, he had to (for the sake of his own political image) be publicly vaccinated in August-September

  185. @melanf
    @AltanBakshi


    This all is true, but you really couldn’t walk freely in the forests or mountains before the 19th century, they were everywhere full of beasts and sometimes vagabonds. We can’t even fathom how dangerous places they were.
     
    Animals are afraid of humans. For hundreds of thousands of years, they are genetically accustomed to fear humans as the most terrible predator. In this case, even the reserve "Cedar Pad" (in the Far East of Russia) where there are many tigers, leopards and black bears, it is quite safe for humans.


    Here is an exception - polar bears are not afraid of people (because they have almost no contact with them), and where they are, you have to put bars on the windows

    https://moya-planeta.ru/upload/images/xl/fe/bd/febd1f3168fd21ed1136cde39252132ed144f8b9.jpg

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Anatoly Karlin, @Gerard.Gerard

    The Animals, particularly predators, don’t seem to have evolved at all in dealing with bait tactics from humans. Humans directly carrying bait are as likely to be attacked now, or to attract the animal for kill…. as they were several centuries before.

    Sheep and cows have been killed billions of times by humans but shown zero evolvement including when defending their young. Have herds of Indian cows evolved into not protecting their young from humans because the cow is sacred there and very safe? Don’t know.

    Africans must have killed millions of crocodiles to practically use their skin or for black magic sh*t, but when we went to Crocodile place in South Africa we basically gave the crocodile a full massage! It was middle of the day, so very hot and so you can do to the the crocodile what you want in that temperature, which of course as Russians we can’t resist! Fence was very thin, malleable wire fence that was very easy to put hands and arms through and stroke and lightly poke 2 crocodiles (obviously not the head, but the body) . Fencing spherical in places because the Croc was resting there, and in another place because a Croc must have previously stayed there.
    A beautiful creature to touch, wonderful skin.No supervision and very safe!

  186. I think wolf DNA may have been changed some by interactions with Neanderthals and then people. Though, not much of a genetic “domestication” difference between modern and medieval wolfs. (In fact, modern ones might be more wild, as they were repopulated from wilder places?) Maybe, half of historical attacks were rabid wolves – behavioral patterns encoded in DNA being overridden by viral RNA. I wonder what percentage were due to wolf-dog hybrids that might have had some kind of mental imbalance due to genetic mismatch – or rather people expecting them to have dog behaviors.

    What has changed from the Middle Ages is many environmental characteristics. More sources of food for humans today (people used to sometimes raid eagles’ nests for food!), more natural prey for wolves today. Less contact between the two today, as forests are often bigger now, and there are less people on farms. Maybe, more lone wolf behavior in past (stressed circumstances in past.)

  187. @reiner Tor
    @Kent Nationalist


    Women can’t have sex with each other
     
    It depends on a Clintonesque definition of sex. They certainly can be naked while causing sexual pleasure to each other, whether with the help of their tongues, fingers, or certain tools, is immaterial. What matters is that it can to a very large extent be a substitute for actual intercourse with a man, and some women engage in it regularly.

    Replies: @songbird

    I feel like there is such a thing as a bull-dyke. That is, one has certain physical and behavioral characteristics, and therefore, there is such a thing, as a lesbian.

    Though, perhaps, Sailer is right with his theory that when men were tougher, they could put bull-dykes in their place and so bull-dykes got amorous with them. It is interesting to consider the historical examples of women in hetero relationships enlisting with their male lovers in pirate crews or armies, and not being found out – it suggests to me that they were not very feminine-looking, and possibly what we would consider butches today.

    I theorize that the number of true female lesbians is lower than male gays due to them having two X chromosomes.

  188. Does Anyone know what Ethnicity Nemets @Peter_Nimitz is?
    Are his ancestors from the Russian Empire or former citizens of the USSR?

    He comments here on occasion, perhaps he could answer.

    • Thanks: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    @Blinky Bill

    He's an American currently in LA, not an immigrant or of East European heritage.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

  189. @A123
    @Anatoly Karlin


    Polar bears much more dangerous – sure.
     
    Especially with the SJW crowd attacking them based on race.... Imagine what they would do to an ORANGE bear...

    PEACE 😇

     
    https://i1.wp.com/www.powerlineblog.com/ed-assets/2021/02/ez91snomxpj61.jpg

     
    https://i0.wp.com/www.powerlineblog.com/ed-assets/2021/02/Screen-Shot-2021-02-24-at-3.35.40-PM.png

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

    It doesn’t matter if a bear is black or white so long as it catches mice.

    [MORE]

  190. @Anatoly Karlin
    @melanf

    Well there's various health rumors about Putin, but I have generally dismissed them all as ill-wishing conspiracy theories, considering they never panned out and that Putin's relatives seem to have consistently lived very long lives (esp. by 20C Russian standards). In any case, basic point that catching Corona is worse than getting a vaccine stands, esp. if you DO have preexisting health problems.

    It doesn't necessarily need to have religious motivations, vaccine skepticism is high amongst Soviet-style people too. (Decades of pushing atheism created a population highly susceptible to conspiracy theories and mystical thinking of all sorts as seen in the 1990s).

    Replies: @melanf, @Mikhail, @g2k

    Suspect it’s probably just a personal habit he seems to have where he’s extremely private with all things to do with his health; machismo, presidential image, personal preference, who knows. He’s probably had a few minor operations that nobody but a small clique knew about.

    Russia seems to have avoided the kind of hysteria which has paralysed Europe, so, as long as the vaccines are readily available and everybody who wants one can have one I don’t see the need to get upset over a few refuseniks though I’m not going to die on a hill to defend them if the hysteria gets refocused on them instead of…..people sitting in parks drinking coffee (or whatever it is this week).

    Fwiw I’ll take the vaccine at the first opportunity, and my stock argument in dealing with antivaxers is that they ought to go pet a dog… that’s got rabies then we can continue the argument six months later. Advocates of zero-covid and forever lockdowns have a certain implicit antivaxx sentiment which you need to acknowledge: “Take the vaccine by all means, but lockdowns and social distancing need to continue for months anyway” is essentially saying that they don’t work and it’s as as antivaxx as some fool saying it’ll alter your dna or let Bill Gates chip you or whatever. The difference is that the former have significantly more influence on policy.

    • Replies: @Anatoly Karlin
    @g2k

    Sure, I don't think any reasonable person would support lockdowns now.

  191. @Mr. Hack
    @Gerard.Gerard

    https://youtu.be/JcMFxKtVY5k

    You can play the mandolin better than this? You really are the consummate BS artist.

    Replies: @Gerard.Gerard

    Er,Mr Hack/ Elephant man….the proof? Where is evidence Ostroushko’s father was a hero at Sralingrad and not a POS UPA swine?

    Proof may be too difficult to ask but reliable anecdote of who, what and where you heard this….. and where exactly Ostroushko originate from.

    Remember Mr Hack…..NO Austrian intelligence disinfo BS, and no Romanian gypsy folktales ( your breed of Khokholism)

    Don’t project the mir/svet fantasist retard AP when talking about “consummate BS artist”, I was mainly referring to my piano playing, which includes successfully playing the Chopin Waterfall Etude in recent days. I listened on YouTube to the obscene faggot Lang Lang play the Ossia cadenza in Rakhmaninov 3rd Piano Concerto….. I’ve never been so insulted ever-his behaviour an absolute disgrace! It provoked me into trying to play that part of the Concerto, but did not get anywhere!

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Gerard.Gerard

    https://youtu.be/-gnXktop0xg

    In his own words about his father..about 1:35 -2:42.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

  192. @Kent Nationalist
    @reiner Tor


    there are women out there who do have sex with other women
     
    Women can't have sex with each other

    What are commonly known as lesbians (i.e. cohabiting middle-aged spinsters) do not even pretend to ('Lesbian bed death').

    What is depicted in these films as lesbianism (i.e. hot, feminine 20-30 year old women passionate for one another) does not exist. I have never met a genuine lesbian in my life. The head of the LGBTQ (etc) society at my university was a supposed 'lesbian' yet had a boyfriend at the time and for several years previously and I once recognised her at a nightclub snogging another man. From what I gathered, her one lesbian experience consisted of kissing her best friend once at a party in her last year of school.

    Replies: @dfordoom, @The Spirit of Enoch Powell, @reiner Tor, @Ray P

    She sounds like Rachel Karen Greene (Jennifer Aniston) in The One with Rachel’s Big Kiss who claims she had a lesbian fling in college because she snogged the Sorority social secretary (Winona Ryder) at a party.

  193. I wonder if Southern and Northern English people are the same ethnic group. Southern and Northerners have very different accents/dialects and local cultural traits, and many Northerners tend to see themselves as “oppressed” by the Southerners and see Southerners as a distinct group at odds with themselves.

    The South, especially London and the South East, contains some of the wealthiest regions of Europe, whereas the North contains some of the poorest of Europe, although there are notable exceptions to this rule.

    I struggle to think of another country in Europe that exhibits such large regional variations in its native people as England does.

    My working theory is that the genetics of the South, especially South East, are heavily derived from the Anglo-Saxon and Norman elites, and perhaps even Jewish to some extent especially amongst the upper classes. In contrast, the genetics of the North is largely derived from assimilated Celts who have a historical memory of seeing the Anglo-Saxon and later Norman “Southerners” as the oppressors.

    • Replies: @216
    @Europe Europa


    I struggle to think of another country in Europe that exhibits such large regional variations in its native people as England does.

     

    This might be the most Anglocentric comment which I have ever seen.
  194. I wonder if it would be fair to say that Muslims elected Biden? If so, his involvement in Syria is on them.

  195. @Anatoly Karlin
    @melanf

    One persistent point that anti-vaxxers make and which I have no real response to though is why Putin hasn't publicly taken Sputnik V himself.

    I suppose that as a religious conservative boomer he might well be an anti-vaxxer himself although one who doesn't want to signal it.

    Replies: @melanf, @reiner Tor

    Interestingly Orbán just got vaccinated with the Sinopharm vaccine publicly. He imported that vaccine in spite of a lack of approval from the EU, amid general mistrust by the population. (My mother just rejected it because she didn’t trust the Chinese vaccine.)

    • Thanks: Anatoly Karlin
  196. @dfordoom
    @reiner Tor


    Is the beauty of a cathedral even comparable to the beauty of a forest or a mountain?
     
    I think so, yes. I think it's weird to argue that natural beauty must somehow be superior to artificially created beauty.

    I think the Cult of Nature is to some extent a symptom of the increasing self-hatred of western civilisation. It seems to me to be a desire to disparage the human ability to create beauty. And a desire to disparage the achievements of civilisation. The striving to create beauty and order is what makes a civilisation.

    Civilisation is a precious thing. But it's something that we in the West increasingly despise. We've lost confidence in civilisation, which is tragic.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @Anatoly Karlin, @reiner Tor

    Well, they’re arguably best in combination and complementarity to each other. Who wouldn’t want to live here?

    • Replies: @Shortsword
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Looks like all the nature in the distance is supposed to just be images on a screen? Too fake.

    Replies: @songbird

    , @Bashibuzuk
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Anatoly, do you happen to have read Solaris, Eden and Return from the Stars by Stanislaw Lem?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eden_(Lem_novel)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solaris_(novel)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_from_the_Stars

    By the late 50ies and early 60ies Lem's enthusiasm with technical development started to decrease. And it is then that he wrote his most powerful books.

    Also, it is not a coincidence that Tarkovsky's Solaris has been produced at the very moment when Soviet intellectuals started doubting the narrative of technological and social progress (1972).



    https://youtu.be/mU7t8GNTcp0

    🙂

    , @Blinky Bill
    @Anatoly Karlin

    They have Pagodas but no Minarets.

    BASED

  197. @AltanBakshi
    @EldnahYm


    Many groups of people also considered mountains holy, believe nature is full of spirits, etc. Maybe this is all consistent with the idea of nature being tamed, but it seems strange to me. Certainly in visual arts one can find an emphasis upon the vastness of mountains long before the Romantic movement. I don’t see much sign of taming in most mountain paintings. I would also add that people can be thrilled by danger.
     
    This all is true, but you really couldn't walk freely in the forests or mountains before the 19th century, they were everywhere full of beasts and sometimes vagabonds. We can't even fathom how dangerous places they were. Even in thinly populated modern countries like Sweden, Russia, Finland bear and wolf populations are carefully kept small and in check. Wolfs and Bears are not stupid, their mentality must nowadays be quite different of those wolves and bears of the past, who were against men armed with bows and polearms. Anyway in my knowledge Medieval Europeans didn't paint any landscape paintings depicting mountains or forests like Chinese or Japanese did, even during renaissance intricate depictions of nature were just a background art for important people. I don't know exactly what was the Orthodox attitude towards the nature in the olden times, but I know very well that for Protestants Nature was something given by God to Man, so that Man could rule the nature, tame and control it, so that he could forge order out of chaos.

    I myself have quite utilitarian attitude with the nature, I grew up in country where there are lots of forests and nature, as did both of my parents, beginning from my childhood years I have spent lots of time in the forests, so to me they dont have anything special in them, in army we had long training camps in forest, living in small tents during winter in a very cold climate near the sea, after such I cant enjoy camping much, why I should force myself to live again like some filthy animal? Camping in nature is no fun, but trekking is nice, especially if you have a cottage where you can spend your nights. Best experience is when faith, sport and beauty meet, which is for me the Buddhist areas of Inner Asia, where the land does not just have a natural beauty in it, but also there's a Sacral Geometry, or how you say it in English? You know Holy mountains, lakes, caves and small temples and trekking to such places where Buddhist sages and saints have lived, in such circumstances my trekking has a spiritual significance, its not just only a sport or having a fun as a tourist, but a pilgrimage!

    Replies: @melanf, @EldnahYm, @Mr. Hack, @reiner Tor

    Rich people always liked to hunt in the forest. It was perfectly safe (there were accidents, but not much more dangerous than driving sports cars in the 1930s), but not a solitary activity. Nature was dangerous for a person walking alone.

  198. @Blinky Bill
    Does Anyone know what Ethnicity Nemets @Peter_Nimitz is?
    Are his ancestors from the Russian Empire or former citizens of the USSR?

    He comments here on occasion, perhaps he could answer.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

    He’s an American currently in LA, not an immigrant or of East European heritage.

    • Thanks: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Because he uses a picture of Pyotr Nikolayevich Wrangel, I thought he might actually be a descendant of Russian Whites, of whatever ethnicity. There are many of them in Cali, as you would know.

  199. @g2k
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Suspect it's probably just a personal habit he seems to have where he's extremely private with all things to do with his health; machismo, presidential image, personal preference, who knows. He's probably had a few minor operations that nobody but a small clique knew about.


    Russia seems to have avoided the kind of hysteria which has paralysed Europe, so, as long as the vaccines are readily available and everybody who wants one can have one I don't see the need to get upset over a few refuseniks though I'm not going to die on a hill to defend them if the hysteria gets refocused on them instead of.....people sitting in parks drinking coffee (or whatever it is this week).

    Fwiw I'll take the vaccine at the first opportunity, and my stock argument in dealing with antivaxers is that they ought to go pet a dog... that's got rabies then we can continue the argument six months later. Advocates of zero-covid and forever lockdowns have a certain implicit antivaxx sentiment which you need to acknowledge: "Take the vaccine by all means, but lockdowns and social distancing need to continue for months anyway" is essentially saying that they don't work and it's as as antivaxx as some fool saying it'll alter your dna or let Bill Gates chip you or whatever. The difference is that the former have significantly more influence on policy.

    Replies: @Anatoly Karlin

    Sure, I don’t think any reasonable person would support lockdowns now.

  200. @Anatoly Karlin
    @dfordoom

    Well, they're arguably best in combination and complementarity to each other. Who wouldn't want to live here?

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EeD3tEEU8AEZS-N.jpg

    Replies: @Shortsword, @Bashibuzuk, @Blinky Bill

    Looks like all the nature in the distance is supposed to just be images on a screen? Too fake.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Shortsword

    Believe parts are supposed to be landscaped in the style of wilderness, for parks. I.e., real (made from matter) hills or mountains. I don't believe a blimp would work too well in an O'Neill cylinder. (high winds). But who knows?

  201. @dfordoom
    @reiner Tor


    Is the beauty of a cathedral even comparable to the beauty of a forest or a mountain?
     
    I think so, yes. I think it's weird to argue that natural beauty must somehow be superior to artificially created beauty.

    I think the Cult of Nature is to some extent a symptom of the increasing self-hatred of western civilisation. It seems to me to be a desire to disparage the human ability to create beauty. And a desire to disparage the achievements of civilisation. The striving to create beauty and order is what makes a civilisation.

    Civilisation is a precious thing. But it's something that we in the West increasingly despise. We've lost confidence in civilisation, which is tragic.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @Anatoly Karlin, @reiner Tor

    I find it weird to even think there could be a choice. What is more pleasant, eating a menu in a Michelin star restaurant or listening to a Beethoven string quartet? Is sex better than the ability to read books? Is sunbathing better than doing pull-ups? I find these questions silly.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @reiner Tor


    I find it weird to even think there could be a choice.
     
    I agree. I'm the one who, at the beginning of the discussion, said it was purely a matter of personal taste and that we should respect different people's different personal aesthetic tastes. Whatever floats your boat.

    But some commenters didn't seem to agree and seemed to think that my personal aesthetic tastes were invalid and that my personal aesthetic tastes made me a dangerous Jewish communist who wanted to turn Siberia into a parking lot. Which I thought was extremely weird, although amusing.

    I do find it amusing that Unz Review is a site that mostly attracts right-wingers and yet here you will encounter the sort of intolerance of dissenting opinions (even on entirely non-political and unimportant issues) that you'd expect from Wokeists. I also find it amusing that on a site dedicated to freedom of speech there are people who will react aggressively if you say something as uncontroversial as, "personally I find gothic cathedrals more beautiful than forests".

    I find these questions silly.
     
    It is pretty silly when people get bent out of shape about such things. Silly, but kind of funny.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  202. @Shortsword
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Looks like all the nature in the distance is supposed to just be images on a screen? Too fake.

    Replies: @songbird

    Believe parts are supposed to be landscaped in the style of wilderness, for parks. I.e., real (made from matter) hills or mountains. I don’t believe a blimp would work too well in an O’Neill cylinder. (high winds). But who knows?

  203. @Anatoly Karlin
    @dfordoom

    Well, they're arguably best in combination and complementarity to each other. Who wouldn't want to live here?

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EeD3tEEU8AEZS-N.jpg

    Replies: @Shortsword, @Bashibuzuk, @Blinky Bill

    Anatoly, do you happen to have read Solaris, Eden and Return from the Stars by Stanislaw Lem?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eden_(Lem_novel)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solaris_(novel)

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Return_from_the_Stars

    By the late 50ies and early 60ies Lem’s enthusiasm with technical development started to decrease. And it is then that he wrote his most powerful books.

    Also, it is not a coincidence that Tarkovsky’s Solaris has been produced at the very moment when Soviet intellectuals started doubting the narrative of technological and social progress (1972).

    [MORE]

    🙂

  204. @Anatoly Karlin
    @Blinky Bill

    He's an American currently in LA, not an immigrant or of East European heritage.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

    Because he uses a picture of Pyotr Nikolayevich Wrangel, I thought he might actually be a descendant of Russian Whites, of whatever ethnicity. There are many of them in Cali, as you would know.

  205. @Anatoly Karlin
    @dfordoom

    Well, they're arguably best in combination and complementarity to each other. Who wouldn't want to live here?

    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/EeD3tEEU8AEZS-N.jpg

    Replies: @Shortsword, @Bashibuzuk, @Blinky Bill

    They have Pagodas but no Minarets.

    BASED

  206. @AaronB
    @dfordoom

    I don't have much time to write, but...

    You certainly aren't a bad person for disliking nature and I'm not going to abuse you :) , but aesthetics seems to me to go deeper than mere accident.

    When we say something is beautiful we mean "this is good for me" and when we say it's ugly we mean "this is bad for me". Or so it seems to me at least. We are making a judgement on the subconscious level.

    So in some sense you are really saying that natural environments are bad for you - which is interesting because this has been a major distinguishing strand in Western thought, the War Against Nature, of seeing nature as Other and as mankind outside and above it, cut off and alienated from it.

    (and I am saying I feel at home in natural environments and feel myself a part of the whole, connected to it nourished by it on a profound level as the source of my being)

    In my opinion, this war against nature has led to the concept of subduing and dominating it, to science, the devastation of natural environments, and then to the war against human nature which culminated in things like Puritanism, Calvinism, the anti-fun movement, and all the various neuroses, anxieties, and the general sense of being repressed and unhappy in modern times.

    People who fear nature fear nature in themselves - and tend to see themselves as outside and above nature, and become alienated and alone in a dead, sterile world; the condition of modern man. They cut themselves off from the Whole.

    Again not a moral condemnation and I would defend your right to never see nature again jn your life :)

    As for Romanticism, it was hardly the first apprecation of nature. The Far East was in love with nature from the begining, and the Pagans thought every river had its nymph and forest it's fauna. The Pagans loved nature.

    The Christian Dark Ages in part turned against nature because it was Pagan, and Christianity is famous for having introduced the division between man and nature. Nature was evil to them. However I believe this is a bad misinterpretation of true Christianity and more a political reaction against Paganism.

    St Francis of Assisi was a great lover of nature, and all those hermits in the deserts and forests, and all those monasteries in especially beautiful natural landscapes... :) Seems to me the heart went where the mouth said it shouldn't.

    Already in the Renaissance Petrarch was writing of his sheer delight in wandering the local woods.

    Romantic love of nature arose precisely when the mechanistic and anti Nature strand in Western culture reached a crescendo, as a counterpoint.

    I think the alienation and malaise of modernity will only heal when Western man reconciles with Nature and once again sees himself as part of the While, and not as outside and above it, or cut off from it, and likewise reconciles with his inner nature.

    After all, urbanism is like 8,000 years old or something - a mere blip in the hundreds of thousands of years man spent in nature experiencing himself as part of the whole.

    But in the meantime I would fully support the establishment of communities of people like you who wish to live only in a man made environment :)

    And now I must continue my journey into the beauties of nature...

    Replies: @Coconuts, @blatnoi

    The Christian Dark Ages in part turned against nature because it was Pagan, and Christianity is famous for having introduced the division between man and nature. Nature was evil to them. However I believe this is a bad misinterpretation of true Christianity and more a political reaction against Paganism.

    Did anyone have the idea of ‘nature’ vs. ‘man’ before the 18th century? As far as I know belief that nature or material creation was evil was considered a heresy by Christians in this period; it was linked to Manicheanism.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Coconuts


    Did anyone have the idea of ‘nature’ vs. ‘man’ before the 18th century?
     
    Well if you got attacked by wolves I guess you'd have some concept of nature vs. man!
    , @AaronB
    @Coconuts

    I am under the impression that the 18th century Enlightenment was a secularization of Christian attitudes basically.

    It's true that hard core rejection of the physical world was a Gnostic position, but mainstream Christianity was very fearful and negative about Nature as well as far as I understand.

    You see this fear and anxiety live on in people like dfordoom.

    That being said, I think "true" Christianity was friendly to nature - I think Jesus basically recommended one live a natural life - and St Francis of Assisi perceived this and created a very beautiful nature centred Christianity.

    And then all those beautiful monasteries in magnificent locations...

  207. @Europe Europa
    I wonder if Southern and Northern English people are the same ethnic group. Southern and Northerners have very different accents/dialects and local cultural traits, and many Northerners tend to see themselves as "oppressed" by the Southerners and see Southerners as a distinct group at odds with themselves.

    The South, especially London and the South East, contains some of the wealthiest regions of Europe, whereas the North contains some of the poorest of Europe, although there are notable exceptions to this rule.

    I struggle to think of another country in Europe that exhibits such large regional variations in its native people as England does.

    My working theory is that the genetics of the South, especially South East, are heavily derived from the Anglo-Saxon and Norman elites, and perhaps even Jewish to some extent especially amongst the upper classes. In contrast, the genetics of the North is largely derived from assimilated Celts who have a historical memory of seeing the Anglo-Saxon and later Norman "Southerners" as the oppressors.

    Replies: @216

    I struggle to think of another country in Europe that exhibits such large regional variations in its native people as England does.

    This might be the most Anglocentric comment which I have ever seen.

    • Agree: AltanBakshi
  208. @melanf
    @AltanBakshi


    Wolves were really dangerous for people in ancient times,
     
    Wolves attack humans only in the rarest of cases. Cars are much more dangerous than wolves - crossing the street at a green light, we risk more than during a walk in the woods with wolves.

    n Primorsky Krai theres probably only couple hundred Tigers and Leopards in area of 150 000 sq km
     
    The Cedar Pad Nature Reserve is a place where there are really a lot of tigers and leopards in a small area. But if you go there for a walk you will not see these predators as they will avoid meeting people

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    Wolves attack humans only in the rarest of cases.

    You realize that it’s only true in the 21st century but not in the 13th century. Wolves in most of Europe were completely exterminated, and the few wolves who survived in a few places were invariably the ones most inclined to avoid humans at any price.

  209. @Anatoly Karlin
    @melanf

    Many wolves and even bears seem to be quite friendly with people. A long-term selection for bears/wolves that had good relations with human camps is not something I consider implausible.

    This after all is not an uncommon theme in Russian paintings:

    https://foma.ru/wp-content/uploads/2019/08/0005-Medved-copy.jpg

    Grizzly Man communed with bears for 20 years before he was killed by one of them. There are quite a few places in the world and even in the US where he would, in all probability, have been killed by humans quite a lot sooner.

    Polar bears much more dangerous - sure. But even in their case:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7rZTZBOrqQ

    Replies: @melanf, @A123, @Morton's toes, @reiner Tor, @Abelard Lindsey

    There are quite a few places in the world and even in the US where he would, in all probability, have been killed by humans quite a lot sooner.

    Those places have a lot more humans than Alaska has grizzlies, so it’s an unfair comparison. Probably the average bear is more dangerous than the average POC in Detroit.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @reiner Tor


    Probably the average bear is more dangerous than the average POC in Detroit.
     
    I like this comparison - it makes one think. What if...
    -you only compared males, selected for the most aggressive age cohort (with blacks only over 200 lbs, 6 ft, and with a mass advantage on their prey)?
    -gave blacks comparable weapons to bear claws and teeth?
    -you called the bears and the blacks both the N-word?
  210. @Shortsword
    https://twitter.com/McFaul/status/1365732863455293442

    WE DINDU NUFFIN

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    That’s hubris. He thinks that America can win against China (whose economy is going to be bigger than the American economy) allied to Russia, while antagonizing all of its minor allies unless they toe the American ideological line. I guess on top of this he’s a purist internally as well, enforcing diversity wherever possible, and not expecting performance to drop.

    I think the only thing stopping this ideology will be cold hard military defeat. Although perhaps there’s a chance of them running out of steam peacefully, I just cannot imagine how. I’ve seen only increasing radicalization both internally and externally.

  211. @reiner Tor
    @Anatoly Karlin


    There are quite a few places in the world and even in the US where he would, in all probability, have been killed by humans quite a lot sooner.
     
    Those places have a lot more humans than Alaska has grizzlies, so it’s an unfair comparison. Probably the average bear is more dangerous than the average POC in Detroit.

    Replies: @songbird

    Probably the average bear is more dangerous than the average POC in Detroit.

    I like this comparison – it makes one think. What if…
    -you only compared males, selected for the most aggressive age cohort (with blacks only over 200 lbs, 6 ft, and with a mass advantage on their prey)?
    -gave blacks comparable weapons to bear claws and teeth?
    -you called the bears and the blacks both the N-word?

  212. @Gerard.Gerard
    @Mr. Hack

    Er,Mr Hack/ Elephant man....the proof? Where is evidence Ostroushko's father was a hero at Sralingrad and not a POS UPA swine?

    Proof may be too difficult to ask but reliable anecdote of who, what and where you heard this..... and where exactly Ostroushko originate from.


    Remember Mr Hack.....NO Austrian intelligence disinfo BS, and no Romanian gypsy folktales ( your breed of Khokholism)

    Don't project the mir/svet fantasist retard AP when talking about "consummate BS artist", I was mainly referring to my piano playing, which includes successfully playing the Chopin Waterfall Etude in recent days. I listened on YouTube to the obscene faggot Lang Lang play the Ossia cadenza in Rakhmaninov 3rd Piano Concerto..... I've never been so insulted ever-his behaviour an absolute disgrace! It provoked me into trying to play that part of the Concerto, but did not get anywhere!

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    In his own words about his father..about 1:35 -2:42.

    • Thanks: Bashibuzuk, Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    @Mr. Hack

    That was a great interview Mr Hack. Peter looks exactly like my best friend in Highschool. RIP

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  213. @reiner Tor
    @dfordoom

    I find it weird to even think there could be a choice. What is more pleasant, eating a menu in a Michelin star restaurant or listening to a Beethoven string quartet? Is sex better than the ability to read books? Is sunbathing better than doing pull-ups? I find these questions silly.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    I find it weird to even think there could be a choice.

    I agree. I’m the one who, at the beginning of the discussion, said it was purely a matter of personal taste and that we should respect different people’s different personal aesthetic tastes. Whatever floats your boat.

    But some commenters didn’t seem to agree and seemed to think that my personal aesthetic tastes were invalid and that my personal aesthetic tastes made me a dangerous Jewish communist who wanted to turn Siberia into a parking lot. Which I thought was extremely weird, although amusing.

    I do find it amusing that Unz Review is a site that mostly attracts right-wingers and yet here you will encounter the sort of intolerance of dissenting opinions (even on entirely non-political and unimportant issues) that you’d expect from Wokeists. I also find it amusing that on a site dedicated to freedom of speech there are people who will react aggressively if you say something as uncontroversial as, “personally I find gothic cathedrals more beautiful than forests”.

    I find these questions silly.

    It is pretty silly when people get bent out of shape about such things. Silly, but kind of funny.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @dfordoom

    Well you wrote that you find natural landscapes boring and ugly. People disagreed. A discussion ensued.

    I have no idea if you're Jewish or not, but I think that Jewish people had usually an appreciation of the nature's beauty., it is present in their spiritual traditions. Therefore, I think that your take on nature is perhaps due to you being an urbanite who is used to artificial environments.

    Anyway, in my opinion this doesn't make you a negative person, to each his own. I leave you the crowded subway stations and traffic jams, the noisy crowds and the shopping malls. I keep the open fields, the forest trails, the mountain cliffs, the streaming rivers and ocean shores...

    😉

    Replies: @dfordoom

  214. @Coconuts
    @AaronB


    The Christian Dark Ages in part turned against nature because it was Pagan, and Christianity is famous for having introduced the division between man and nature. Nature was evil to them. However I believe this is a bad misinterpretation of true Christianity and more a political reaction against Paganism.
     
    Did anyone have the idea of 'nature' vs. 'man' before the 18th century? As far as I know belief that nature or material creation was evil was considered a heresy by Christians in this period; it was linked to Manicheanism.

    Replies: @dfordoom, @AaronB

    Did anyone have the idea of ‘nature’ vs. ‘man’ before the 18th century?

    Well if you got attacked by wolves I guess you’d have some concept of nature vs. man!

  215. @dfordoom
    @reiner Tor


    I find it weird to even think there could be a choice.
     
    I agree. I'm the one who, at the beginning of the discussion, said it was purely a matter of personal taste and that we should respect different people's different personal aesthetic tastes. Whatever floats your boat.

    But some commenters didn't seem to agree and seemed to think that my personal aesthetic tastes were invalid and that my personal aesthetic tastes made me a dangerous Jewish communist who wanted to turn Siberia into a parking lot. Which I thought was extremely weird, although amusing.

    I do find it amusing that Unz Review is a site that mostly attracts right-wingers and yet here you will encounter the sort of intolerance of dissenting opinions (even on entirely non-political and unimportant issues) that you'd expect from Wokeists. I also find it amusing that on a site dedicated to freedom of speech there are people who will react aggressively if you say something as uncontroversial as, "personally I find gothic cathedrals more beautiful than forests".

    I find these questions silly.
     
    It is pretty silly when people get bent out of shape about such things. Silly, but kind of funny.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    Well you wrote that you find natural landscapes boring and ugly. People disagreed. A discussion ensued.

    I have no idea if you’re Jewish or not, but I think that Jewish people had usually an appreciation of the nature’s beauty., it is present in their spiritual traditions. Therefore, I think that your take on nature is perhaps due to you being an urbanite who is used to artificial environments.

    Anyway, in my opinion this doesn’t make you a negative person, to each his own. I leave you the crowded subway stations and traffic jams, the noisy crowds and the shopping malls. I keep the open fields, the forest trails, the mountain cliffs, the streaming rivers and ocean shores…

    😉

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Bashibuzuk


    I have no idea if you’re Jewish or not
     
    I'm not.

    Therefore, I think that your take on nature is perhaps due to you being an urbanite who is used to artificial environments.
     
    I'm not an urbanite either. I was once. Now I'm a semi-ruralite. I'm just not a mountains-and-forests person. I have no objection to the existence of mountains and forests. They just don't appeal to me aesthetically.

    I'm not sure that there's any real complete explanation for aesthetic tastes. Obviously cultural conditioning plays some role. But that doesn't explain why I dislike most Modernist buildings but there are some that I love.

    I don't think there's any real complete explanation for any aesthetic tastes. Some people prefer Mozart to Beethoven. Some men find certain women attractive while others have totally different tastes. Some people prefer mountains to forests. A lot of people find old buildings attractive but some like the gothic style and some prefer the classical style.

    I'm sure there are complicated theories to explain aesthetic tastes. I remember reading Roger Scruton's book on beauty but I didn't think it was very illuminating.

    Replies: @Mikel

  216. @Mr. Hack
    @Gerard.Gerard

    https://youtu.be/-gnXktop0xg

    In his own words about his father..about 1:35 -2:42.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

    That was a great interview Mr Hack. Peter looks exactly like my best friend in Highschool. RIP

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Blinky Bill

    It really was a good interview and it went a long way to explain about the Ukrainian diaspora that settled in the N.E area of Mpls. Of course when I refer to it as "our Ukrainian neighborhood" it was equally the neighborhood of the Poles, Italians, French, Germans and others that settled in the neighborhood too. As Peter said, our Ukrainian neighborhood included immigrants from the first waive that included those up until WWI, and those that settled there after WWII. They all settled around the growing Ukrainian churches, cultural center and the really great Ukrainian deli and bakery (that I'm sure Peter frequented).

    I wonder if that idiotic You Know Who, will take note of how dearly Pete referred to the Russian immigrants that moved in across the street from where he lived and invited him over for a dinner party, filled with other Russians too. How the home looked and was filled with scents that reminded him of his childhood Ukrainian home, how they all chimed in and sang songs familiar to everybody there? The idiot will be nitpicking through the interview looking for ways to prosecute his case against any and all Ukrainians, just watch. :-(

  217. @songbird
    @Morton's toes


    Bears can be domesticated.
     
    Technically, you mean "tamed." Domestication involves selective breeding and genetic changes leading to certain common traits. Though arguably, being able to be tamed suggests the possibility of being able to be domesticated.

    Wolves, mountain lions whatnot are more afraid of humans than most humans are of them.
     
    Partly, depends on height and mass. Many aren't afraid of kids - and young children working the fields is one reason for higher attacks in the Middle Ages. Many children are still attacked by wolves in India. When mountain lions attack, it is commonly women joggers under 5 feet tall. They would not attack a "jogger" like Ahmaud Arbery.

    Replies: @Morton's toes

    selective breeding and genetic changes leading to certain common traits.

    I would suppose the Bosnian monks de-select the feistier bears. They have been keeping the bears for many generations.

    The last time I saw a mountain lion it took one look at me and took off in the opposite direction at 100 m per 8 sec. He or she could have passed Usain Bolt. I am average size in my zip code though in the Netherlands I would be short. The last attack on a human that I know of was in Washington state and it was a mountain biker and a mountain lion who had some kind of wasting disease that had taken out its normal ability. Normal healthy mountain lions never attack normal healthy humans around where I have been.

  218. @utu
    @dfordoom

    "It’s a cultural preference. Before the Romantic Movement came along nobody would have agreed with you." - You are full of it. I could say that communist and Jewish anti nature materialism is talking through you. I could say that you would like to pave up with asphalt the all of Siberia if it was up to you. I could say that "American pastoral" by Philip Roth is a good exemplification of Jewish fear and apprehension of nature because for Jews nature is goyish.. But I won't. Instead I will say that you have no original thought of your own. You are a pretentious bore.

    Replies: @dfordoom, @Dmitry

    Israeli Jewish culture is relatively anti-city, and the only people outside internet forums like this one I ever heard to say “I hate cities” was secular native Jews in Israel.

    When I was in my early 20s, I had culture shock from talking to natives Israelis in Israel, because they say when you ask if they’ve visited other countries – “I love Peru and Nepal – I don’t want to visit cities like Rome”.

    That’s likely the reason Tel Aviv is only the size of Novorossíysk, and so undeveloped and financially neglected in the centre. Secular Jews have been constantly trying to leave places that feels like a large city, and to live in green suburbs and miniature villages which are all running all the way along the coast, and as a result Tel Aviv becomes an undeveloped warehouse/industrial zone, only poorly developed into a normal residential city, and only this decade will be is starting to get normal features of a city like a tram service.

    To love great cities is usually correlating to people with a higher European cultural level. To be enchanted with Rome, London, Paris and New York, is usually people who are under spell of complex cultural products related to those cities and/or their history.

    People that read Zola and Victor Hugo, are enchanted with Paris; if you are a fan of Tosca, you cannot visit Rome without hearing a certain melody; if you are fan of “Mrs Dalloway”, then Oxford Street in London is a pilgrimage zone.

    On the other hand, if you never had a specific historical and cultural background to appeciate them, then these cities might be justifiably felt to be nothing more than a concrete jungle with high prices and uncomfortable crowds.

    For people without a specific “cultural/historical priming” then it’s possible that Peru, Goa or Thailand, can seem far more interesting than Paris or London. To enjoy Patagonia doesn’t need you to have a specific cultural background – it is intrinsically beautiful and interesting; while to make London to be interesting, might often require you to be a fan of specific culture and history.

    • Replies: @utu
    @Dmitry

    You say those Israeli nature lovers of yours like to commune with nature in Peru, Goa and Patagonia. By getting stoned and doing drug trafficking, right? Here is one who loved nature in Goa and Peru:


    Israeli drug lord held in Goa trafficking case (extradited from Lima, Peru)
    https://mumbaimirror.indiatimes.com/mumbai/other/israeli-drug-lord-held-in-goa-trafficking-case/articleshow/16158833.cms?
     
    The Israeli lovers of nature in Patagonia were quite successful in pissing off the locals who apparently were not appreciative of their love for nature:

    Israeli backpackers suffer antisemitic aggression in Patagonia
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/21/israeli-backpackers-antisemitic-campaign-patagonia

    Campaign in Argentine Town Calls for Boycott of Israeli Tourists
    https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/argentine-campaign-to-boycott-israelis-1.5351113

    Israeli tourist arrested in huge Patagonia fire
    https://nypost.com/2011/12/31/israeli-tourist-arrested-in-huge-patagonia-fire/

    Israeli tourists a nuisance
    https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4196793,00.html

    Group of Jewish backpackers tortured for hours in Argentinian hostel by locals who chanted they were 'trying to take over Patagonia'
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2921642/Group-Jewish-backpackers-tortured-hours-Argentinian-hostel-locals-chanted-trying-Patagonia.html
     

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @Dmitry

  219. @AP
    @dfordoom


    On the whole I find more beauty in artificial things than in natural things. To me a gothic cathedral is more beautiful than a mountain.
     
    I find that "organic-seeming" architecture made by people more connected to the natural world (such as the builders of the Gothic cathedrals) is more beautiful than modernist works made by people who are disconnected from the natural world.

    Replies: @songbird, @Hyperborean, @dfordoom, @Dmitry

    I will disagree, as Northern European architecture from the medieval stage, had been usually trying to exclude nature (with an exception of country aristocratic retreats, and monastic, later university architecture*).

    On the other hand, from 19th century garden suburbs, and then more so modernist architecture, has been trying to incorporate nature into the house, and blur the “indoor/outdoor” distinction. For modernist architect’s desire to incorporate nature, can see “Falling Water” by Frank Lloyd Wright, or Barbican in London as a famous example, or alternatively any tour of modernisty style American suburban houses on YouTube.**

    The changing attitude of architecture to nature, is as Marx has predicted, that as we become masters nature following the industrial revolution, our attitude to nature has become more sympathetic and sentimentalized than it was in earlier historical stages.

    *If you compare architecture of Edinburgh in Scotland, with Oxford/Cambridge in England

    Cloisters of English university architecture, as of monastic architecture before it, was trying to blur indoor/outdoor distinction.
    On the other hand, Edinburgh is a more typical European city, where nature was overthrown until the 19th century city, and the human world replaces it.

    ** I have some culture shock looking at the American modern house tours on YouTube, where the high level of glass and low level of distinction between indoors/outdoor – so that interior house feels only half-way indoors.

  220. @songbird
    @Dmitry

    BTW, I have been wondering where Another_German_Reader and Another_Polish_Perspective fit into your eschatology of Unz. We are in the Kali Yuga, I believe? When Tatu puts on Christian airs?

    Replies: @Dmitry

    I don’t think the LGBT topic is very important, as it was just a marketing gimmick (the cultural difference between Russia and the West on LGBT, is exaggerated a lot – it’s more like a difference of etiquette about the topic)

    The “Age of Tatu” (2000-2010) will be seen as a relatively peak of Russian pop music, in comparison to the “Age of Timati” (2010-2020), when postsoviet pop music become increasingly globalized and generic sounding.

    Although it was already in 2005, when Tatu is last produced with half-postsoviet pop sounds.

    For example, the song “Disabled People” (2005) the producer is already at half-authentic Russian/postsoviet pop sounds.

    By 2009, Tatu is sounding much more like London pop of the 2000s.

    E.g. by 2009 Tatu has become musically globalized, and this is the trend for Russian pop to lose any idiosyncratic sounds into the 2010s.

    It’s an interesting question what can make a different nationality, create a specific pop sound, that is distinctive to its culture, and what causes this to end.

    In Japanese pop, the explanation seems to be quite simple, as its distinctive sound is mainly on the harmonic level, as a result of the higher training of its musicians: that is we hear in Japanese pop music a lot of sophisticate voicings in the chords, and use of higher intervals including the melody.

    Japanese pop is being very stubborn to be one of the last nationalities to hold onto unusual different sounds into the 2020s.

    • Replies: @216
    @Dmitry


    I don’t think the LGBT topic is very important, as it was just a marketing gimmick (the cultural difference between Russia and the West on LGBT, is exaggerated a lot – it’s more like a difference of etiquette about the topic)

     

    From the Western perspective, it is of paramount importance. Western liberals can't criticize Islamic, Indian, African or Chinese attitudes on Pride. To do so is to invite accusations of cultural imperialism.

    But as Russia is coded as "white", it is fair game.

    The Russiagate conspiracy theory combined two enemies of liberals, the US Right and Putin. Thus serving to terrify and motivate their base.

    The Bluestani culture industry has also eagerly promoted works like the Handmaid's Tale, a 1980s Canadian polemic against social conservatives.

    In countries like Germany, social conservatives are such a minority of the population that they can be ignored, and if that fails, placed under restrictions. In the US that is currently impossible.

    It's not an accident that putting a Pride event in Kyiv was high on the agenda for the US.

    Replies: @sher singh, @Dmitry

    , @songbird
    @Dmitry


    I don’t think the LGBT topic is very important, as it was just a marketing gimmick
     
    It was amazingly effective, though. When I first heard about them, I looked them up, and I thought, "sound isn't great, and I know prettier girls." But I was impressed that they got on my radar (all the way from Russia) by someone actually telling me about them. I would say it might be the second-best marketing gimmick, after The Blair Witch Project.

    Modern pop is pretty bad, but putting it aside (and globalism), it is interesting to consider the music of different countries. I feel some just have terrible music for HBD reasons. But I am not knowledgeable enough to draw the full map, and some places might be so influenced by Western tastes, like Hawaii and Japan (even though it is surely unique in a way) that it is difficult to tell, what the true native sound is. Anyway, one eccentric idea might be to create a passport system based on musical tastes - would have prevented 9/11.

    Replies: @Vishnugupta, @Dmitry

  221. @silviosilver
    @Mikel

    Nature's okay, but really, four hours is the most that anybody should want to spend in nature, and even that is seriously pushing it. Personally, I start getting bored after fifteen minutes. Once you've seen two or three beaches or mountains or lakes, you've pretty much seen them all. I know each one is unique and all that, but that's something you realize straight away and it doesn't prevent the boredom from setting in.

    What you do in nature anyway, just look at it? How many people can really do that all day though. That's why we have picnics or go for swims or even just walks, because nature, of itself, is fundamentally boring and we need something to distract us when we're in it. Personally, I think an underrated reason cities have attracted people for thousands of years is because we're anxious to get away from nature and its blizzards, its heat waves, its stings, its snakebites, its swamps and its sands.

    For me, the really humbling experience is to take in the splendor of the city from an elevated vantage point and reflect on the myriad benefits that have accrued to us from transcending nature's meager bounty. Always remember: I could go three years without nature and not miss it, but could you really go three days without electricity?

    Replies: @Mikel, @blatnoi, @reiner Tor, @Dmitry

    If you live in a cold dark Northern place, then nature is indeed boring and inaccessible much of year, especially in those countries where too much was converted to agriculture, and the city seems comparatively more necessary.

    On the other hand, if you live in a temperate area like Southern Europe, then your attitude can be different, and nature is much more welcoming for more months of the year, and the idea of living in an isolate village can be quite attractive. If someone said you will be forced to live in a tiny village in Tuscany for a year – does that sound so scary for us, like a small village would be in a Northern country?

    And if you live in a Caribbean island, I’m sure you can be entertained simply by the warm sea.

    Romanticism about nature is a recent development, emerging from the late 18th century, in Northern Europe, among the urban bourgeoisie.

    Concept of sublime beauty of nature, applied Kant, can seem a response of people living in luxury of too safe conditions, in regions of the world where the weather rarely injures mankind.

    I doubt if you experience regular earthquakes in Japan, or cyclones in Bangladesh, that you would romanticize it as a category of sublime beauty, but rather as an unpleasant trauma. On the other hand, when you are in one of the most naturally boring and stable regions (i.e. Germany), – then it becomes easier to view such things as sublime.

    • Agree: dfordoom, AltanBakshi
  222. @Bashibuzuk
    @dfordoom

    Well you wrote that you find natural landscapes boring and ugly. People disagreed. A discussion ensued.

    I have no idea if you're Jewish or not, but I think that Jewish people had usually an appreciation of the nature's beauty., it is present in their spiritual traditions. Therefore, I think that your take on nature is perhaps due to you being an urbanite who is used to artificial environments.

    Anyway, in my opinion this doesn't make you a negative person, to each his own. I leave you the crowded subway stations and traffic jams, the noisy crowds and the shopping malls. I keep the open fields, the forest trails, the mountain cliffs, the streaming rivers and ocean shores...

    😉

    Replies: @dfordoom

    I have no idea if you’re Jewish or not

    I’m not.

    Therefore, I think that your take on nature is perhaps due to you being an urbanite who is used to artificial environments.

    I’m not an urbanite either. I was once. Now I’m a semi-ruralite. I’m just not a mountains-and-forests person. I have no objection to the existence of mountains and forests. They just don’t appeal to me aesthetically.

    I’m not sure that there’s any real complete explanation for aesthetic tastes. Obviously cultural conditioning plays some role. But that doesn’t explain why I dislike most Modernist buildings but there are some that I love.

    I don’t think there’s any real complete explanation for any aesthetic tastes. Some people prefer Mozart to Beethoven. Some men find certain women attractive while others have totally different tastes. Some people prefer mountains to forests. A lot of people find old buildings attractive but some like the gothic style and some prefer the classical style.

    I’m sure there are complicated theories to explain aesthetic tastes. I remember reading Roger Scruton’s book on beauty but I didn’t think it was very illuminating.

    • Replies: @Mikel
    @dfordoom

    I agree that it's totally pointless to try to convince other people of one's aesthetic preferences. When you find someone who happens to share yours, it's great because you have a lot to talk about and experiences to share but they're obviously of no interest to the rest. As far as I'm concerned, the more people stay in cities and the less they crowd the natural spaces, the better.

    But you haven't answered an interesting question upthread. Do you prefer to contemplate a man-made representation of a beautiful young woman or the actual woman herself? Arguably, the most beautiful thing nature has made for us humans to enjoy seeing is the female body so this looks like a valuable comparison in this discussion. Can humans make something of comparable beauty at all?

    To be fair, the question is a bit tricky because nature also gave us males the desire to posses that beautiful body so a fair assessment may be difficult. How much is appreciation of beauty and how much is desire? But, talking about lesbianism, I think that women, regardless of sexual orientation, are also perfectly capable of appreciating the beauty of their own bodies. Miley Cirus recently put it bluntly: "breasts are nicer than balls", an assessment that both my wife and I agreed with when we heard it.

    Replies: @dfordoom

  223. It seems like Visegrad countries apart from Slovakia, can be entering the beginning of a third wave of the coronavirus pandemic.

    There seems to relative lack of success in the lockdowns in the Visegrad countries of the last six months compared to other regions, including different parts of Europe.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Dmitry

    In Hungary people no longer take it seriously and it’s impossible to enforce. Even the cops don’t care for violations, at least often they don’t care. Like theoretically you are supposed to stay home after 8 pm, and people go to private parties etc.

    Replies: @Dmitry

  224. @That Would Be Telling
    @songbird


    What is the correct atomic policy for atomophiles to advocate for, if one is realistic about dysgenics? Are ultra-high IQs only needed to design power plants? Not to build, or maintain them? Or deal with the waste products?
     
    As I define it, only "ultra" high IQ to design them. To build to spec and run them, significant IQ, plus a culture that's compatible with the domain, which for example excludes Japan, realized long before Fukushima. To maintain, maybe not "ultra," but pretty high IQ for some of the problems that can arise. Waste products are fairly easy if you ignore recycling which you shouldn't, encase them in something really durable, bury and wait 600 years, by which time they'll be no more radioactive than the ore from which the fuel was mined.

    Societal and national capabilities for building them can be lost "overnight," see the US, and now France, or so I hear after it busted up its old organization that did that. Counties like Germany can also just go insane and believe everything can be powered by solar and windmills, and decide nuclear is too dangerous even though they're very much not Japanese.

    Replies: @Badger Down

    Ah Fukushima! They built the nuclear power plant on a river, you know. They later said they hadn’t noticed the river was there. Four hundred tons of water every day!

  225. @Blinky Bill
    @Mr. Hack

    That was a great interview Mr Hack. Peter looks exactly like my best friend in Highschool. RIP

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    It really was a good interview and it went a long way to explain about the Ukrainian diaspora that settled in the N.E area of Mpls. Of course when I refer to it as “our Ukrainian neighborhood” it was equally the neighborhood of the Poles, Italians, French, Germans and others that settled in the neighborhood too. As Peter said, our Ukrainian neighborhood included immigrants from the first waive that included those up until WWI, and those that settled there after WWII. They all settled around the growing Ukrainian churches, cultural center and the really great Ukrainian deli and bakery (that I’m sure Peter frequented).

    I wonder if that idiotic You Know Who, will take note of how dearly Pete referred to the Russian immigrants that moved in across the street from where he lived and invited him over for a dinner party, filled with other Russians too. How the home looked and was filled with scents that reminded him of his childhood Ukrainian home, how they all chimed in and sang songs familiar to everybody there? The idiot will be nitpicking through the interview looking for ways to prosecute his case against any and all Ukrainians, just watch. 🙁

  226. @Coconuts
    @AaronB


    The Christian Dark Ages in part turned against nature because it was Pagan, and Christianity is famous for having introduced the division between man and nature. Nature was evil to them. However I believe this is a bad misinterpretation of true Christianity and more a political reaction against Paganism.
     
    Did anyone have the idea of 'nature' vs. 'man' before the 18th century? As far as I know belief that nature or material creation was evil was considered a heresy by Christians in this period; it was linked to Manicheanism.

    Replies: @dfordoom, @AaronB

    I am under the impression that the 18th century Enlightenment was a secularization of Christian attitudes basically.

    It’s true that hard core rejection of the physical world was a Gnostic position, but mainstream Christianity was very fearful and negative about Nature as well as far as I understand.

    You see this fear and anxiety live on in people like dfordoom.

    That being said, I think “true” Christianity was friendly to nature – I think Jesus basically recommended one live a natural life – and St Francis of Assisi perceived this and created a very beautiful nature centred Christianity.

    And then all those beautiful monasteries in magnificent locations…

  227. 216 says: • Website
    @Dmitry
    @songbird

    I don't think the LGBT topic is very important, as it was just a marketing gimmick (the cultural difference between Russia and the West on LGBT, is exaggerated a lot - it's more like a difference of etiquette about the topic)

    The "Age of Tatu" (2000-2010) will be seen as a relatively peak of Russian pop music, in comparison to the "Age of Timati" (2010-2020), when postsoviet pop music become increasingly globalized and generic sounding.

    Although it was already in 2005, when Tatu is last produced with half-postsoviet pop sounds.

    For example, the song "Disabled People" (2005) the producer is already at half-authentic Russian/postsoviet pop sounds.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9526tRl4w2E


    By 2009, Tatu is sounding much more like London pop of the 2000s.

    E.g. by 2009 Tatu has become musically globalized, and this is the trend for Russian pop to lose any idiosyncratic sounds into the 2010s.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Qjx8IXkgjE


    -


    It's an interesting question what can make a different nationality, create a specific pop sound, that is distinctive to its culture, and what causes this to end.

    In Japanese pop, the explanation seems to be quite simple, as its distinctive sound is mainly on the harmonic level, as a result of the higher training of its musicians: that is we hear in Japanese pop music a lot of sophisticate voicings in the chords, and use of higher intervals including the melody.

    Japanese pop is being very stubborn to be one of the last nationalities to hold onto unusual different sounds into the 2020s.

    Replies: @216, @songbird

    I don’t think the LGBT topic is very important, as it was just a marketing gimmick (the cultural difference between Russia and the West on LGBT, is exaggerated a lot – it’s more like a difference of etiquette about the topic)

    From the Western perspective, it is of paramount importance. Western liberals can’t criticize Islamic, Indian, African or Chinese attitudes on Pride. To do so is to invite accusations of cultural imperialism.

    But as Russia is coded as “white”, it is fair game.

    The Russiagate conspiracy theory combined two enemies of liberals, the US Right and Putin. Thus serving to terrify and motivate their base.

    The Bluestani culture industry has also eagerly promoted works like the Handmaid’s Tale, a 1980s Canadian polemic against social conservatives.

    In countries like Germany, social conservatives are such a minority of the population that they can be ignored, and if that fails, placed under restrictions. In the US that is currently impossible.

    It’s not an accident that putting a Pride event in Kyiv was high on the agenda for the US.

    • Replies: @sher singh
    @216

    West pushes feminism on all those cultures anyway.


    criticize Islamic, Indian, African or Chinese
     
    That just means there's less people there who believe in Westernism.

    Meanwhile, the entire history of the Russian people(s) over the last 1000 years has been begging the West for acceptance.

    Replies: @Jatt Aryaa

    , @Dmitry
    @216

    It was also a self-conscious, intention, decision of the Russian government (United Russia political party) domestic propaganda or marketing to the older voters, to say "sure, they might have cleaner water and higher salaries in Austria or Sweden, but you should be happy to support the government because we don't have those crazy gay parades like they do, and that weird propaganda about sexual minorities and non-binary genders in the schools".

    This geopoliticization of the LGBT issue by both sides (both NATO and the authorities in Russia) has contributed to attacks on the image of Russian society in the West, while at the same time creating a distorted image of the reality: there is no persecuting sexual minorities in Russia, and there currently is a historically unprecedented toleration of sexual minorities. There are gay nightclubs even in quite minor cities, etc - the difference between West and Russia on this topic is more like a difference of cultural etiquette, and even religion in the sense that Russia has not converted to some recent Western religious fashions (as in England you can see LGBT flags have become like religious symbols that are almost used to decorate buildings for good luck or virtue signalling).

  228. utu says:
    @Dmitry
    @utu

    Israeli Jewish culture is relatively anti-city, and the only people outside internet forums like this one I ever heard to say "I hate cities" was secular native Jews in Israel.

    When I was in my early 20s, I had culture shock from talking to natives Israelis in Israel, because they say when you ask if they've visited other countries - "I love Peru and Nepal - I don't want to visit cities like Rome".

    That's likely the reason Tel Aviv is only the size of Novorossíysk, and so undeveloped and financially neglected in the centre. Secular Jews have been constantly trying to leave places that feels like a large city, and to live in green suburbs and miniature villages which are all running all the way along the coast, and as a result Tel Aviv becomes an undeveloped warehouse/industrial zone, only poorly developed into a normal residential city, and only this decade will be is starting to get normal features of a city like a tram service.

    To love great cities is usually correlating to people with a higher European cultural level. To be enchanted with Rome, London, Paris and New York, is usually people who are under spell of complex cultural products related to those cities and/or their history.

    People that read Zola and Victor Hugo, are enchanted with Paris; if you are a fan of Tosca, you cannot visit Rome without hearing a certain melody; if you are fan of "Mrs Dalloway", then Oxford Street in London is a pilgrimage zone.

    On the other hand, if you never had a specific historical and cultural background to appeciate them, then these cities might be justifiably felt to be nothing more than a concrete jungle with high prices and uncomfortable crowds.

    For people without a specific "cultural/historical priming" then it's possible that Peru, Goa or Thailand, can seem far more interesting than Paris or London. To enjoy Patagonia doesn't need you to have a specific cultural background - it is intrinsically beautiful and interesting; while to make London to be interesting, might often require you to be a fan of specific culture and history.

    Replies: @utu

    You say those Israeli nature lovers of yours like to commune with nature in Peru, Goa and Patagonia. By getting stoned and doing drug trafficking, right? Here is one who loved nature in Goa and Peru:

    Israeli drug lord held in Goa trafficking case (extradited from Lima, Peru)
    https://mumbaimirror.indiatimes.com/mumbai/other/israeli-drug-lord-held-in-goa-trafficking-case/articleshow/16158833.cms?

    The Israeli lovers of nature in Patagonia were quite successful in pissing off the locals who apparently were not appreciative of their love for nature:

    Israeli backpackers suffer antisemitic aggression in Patagonia
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/21/israeli-backpackers-antisemitic-campaign-patagonia

    Campaign in Argentine Town Calls for Boycott of Israeli Tourists
    https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/argentine-campaign-to-boycott-israelis-1.5351113

    Israeli tourist arrested in huge Patagonia fire
    https://nypost.com/2011/12/31/israeli-tourist-arrested-in-huge-patagonia-fire/

    Israeli tourists a nuisance
    https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4196793,00.html

    Group of Jewish backpackers tortured for hours in Argentinian hostel by locals who chanted they were ‘trying to take over Patagonia’
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2921642/Group-Jewish-backpackers-tortured-hours-Argentinian-hostel-locals-chanted-trying-Patagonia.html

    • Agree: AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @utu

    Oy gevalt!

    The world is full of anti-semites. Even the Patagonians are secret uncle Adi worshippers. Probably due to noxious influence of Miguel Joaquín Diego del Carmen Serrano Fernández.

    Oy vey!

    🙂

    , @Dmitry
    @utu

    Israeli youth culture is marked by elements of communalist, collectivist behaviour among themselves, with anarchism in relation to external surroundings. So they all travel for 6 months to the same places after the army: going to the same Patagonia or boat in the river Amazon. You can see where they are travelling if you search Hebrew in YouTube for the name of the post military trip to South America - hatiul hagol ("the big journey" הטיול הגדול)

    They are choosing the most isolated Southern locations of South America. After arriving, they seem to like hotels run by Israelis, and eat in the Israeli restaurants, and become friends with other Israelis.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCEcB96xEg4.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3E-6mm5UNPc.

    But the communal location choice is somewhere isolated. Young Israeli Jews' concept of happiness, is not for most of them a night in La Scala in Milan, or to go to the Met in Manhattan, - but being stoned jumping up and down to psytrance in an empty forest in Patagonia.


    -

    But until recently, the Jews that live in America today, were not any sophisticated city people, but rather the opposite.

    A large part of America's Jews immigrated to the USA directly from primitive small villages in the Western Russian Empire, and Jewish folk culture of that epoch, represented in Yiddish writers like Sholem Aleichem, is about impoverished village life and provincial scandals.

    American Jews have been urbanized to a "big city" life, only as a result of the 20th century immigration patterns and then subsequent embourgeoisement. Today, after a couple of generations they might disproportionately constitute America's sophisticated city people that are addicted to the Manhattan art gallery and the opera house, but this "big city life" is recent in the family history of most of the American Jews, whose ancestors some generations ago were more likely living like Tevye the milkman, in a primitive village without water, outside Gomel, under leaking wooden roof, and surrounded by mud.

    Possibly we will see in our own lifetime that non-Haredi Jewish culture cannot survive much more than a century as a separate culture in America, and will dissolve as a separate nationality within one or two more generations. While by contrast the Haredi Jews can survive in the city by recreating the intensity of a small village, and that's why they live in very densely populated communities where everyone can check each other and see if they are obeying the internal religious rules.

  229. @utu
    @Dmitry

    You say those Israeli nature lovers of yours like to commune with nature in Peru, Goa and Patagonia. By getting stoned and doing drug trafficking, right? Here is one who loved nature in Goa and Peru:


    Israeli drug lord held in Goa trafficking case (extradited from Lima, Peru)
    https://mumbaimirror.indiatimes.com/mumbai/other/israeli-drug-lord-held-in-goa-trafficking-case/articleshow/16158833.cms?
     
    The Israeli lovers of nature in Patagonia were quite successful in pissing off the locals who apparently were not appreciative of their love for nature:

    Israeli backpackers suffer antisemitic aggression in Patagonia
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/21/israeli-backpackers-antisemitic-campaign-patagonia

    Campaign in Argentine Town Calls for Boycott of Israeli Tourists
    https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/argentine-campaign-to-boycott-israelis-1.5351113

    Israeli tourist arrested in huge Patagonia fire
    https://nypost.com/2011/12/31/israeli-tourist-arrested-in-huge-patagonia-fire/

    Israeli tourists a nuisance
    https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4196793,00.html

    Group of Jewish backpackers tortured for hours in Argentinian hostel by locals who chanted they were 'trying to take over Patagonia'
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2921642/Group-Jewish-backpackers-tortured-hours-Argentinian-hostel-locals-chanted-trying-Patagonia.html
     

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @Dmitry

    Oy gevalt!

    The world is full of anti-semites. Even the Patagonians are secret uncle Adi worshippers. Probably due to noxious influence of Miguel Joaquín Diego del Carmen Serrano Fernández.

    Oy vey!

    🙂

  230. @dfordoom
    @AaronB


    Most people are not satisfied with their way of life, so to strengthen their faith in it they insist everyone live like them. People who don’t live like them threaten them.
     
    Yeah. It hasn't always been the case, certainly not in every society, but it has been a characteristic feature of western civilisation since the 19th century.

    It's also a characteristic feature of Puritanism and Calvinism. Such people know that they're the Elect and they know they're good and righteous but they're miserable and they're enraged that all those wicked sinners are enjoying themselves. They must be stopped.

    Puritans love misery, but mostly they love inflicting misery on others.

    Since SJWs and Wokeists are a mutated variety of Puritan they share this mindset. They know they're super-virtuous but they're not really happy and they're angry at the thought that the non-virtuous might be happy.

    People think they're doing what they want to do but they're still unhappy and dissatisfied, so they're threatened by anybody who has made different choices. And they get angry if those people who have made different choices seem happy.

    Replies: @Not Only Wrathful, @Coconuts, @sher singh

    racialists & nationalists are a kind of puritan where they black-white assign virtue based on characteristics.

    Puritanism created the modern world & the bureaucratic, legalistic state.

    Puritanism seems to be a way to deal with fast pace of change.

    I see it dying down in the next 80 years,

  231. @216
    @Dmitry


    I don’t think the LGBT topic is very important, as it was just a marketing gimmick (the cultural difference between Russia and the West on LGBT, is exaggerated a lot – it’s more like a difference of etiquette about the topic)

     

    From the Western perspective, it is of paramount importance. Western liberals can't criticize Islamic, Indian, African or Chinese attitudes on Pride. To do so is to invite accusations of cultural imperialism.

    But as Russia is coded as "white", it is fair game.

    The Russiagate conspiracy theory combined two enemies of liberals, the US Right and Putin. Thus serving to terrify and motivate their base.

    The Bluestani culture industry has also eagerly promoted works like the Handmaid's Tale, a 1980s Canadian polemic against social conservatives.

    In countries like Germany, social conservatives are such a minority of the population that they can be ignored, and if that fails, placed under restrictions. In the US that is currently impossible.

    It's not an accident that putting a Pride event in Kyiv was high on the agenda for the US.

    Replies: @sher singh, @Dmitry

    West pushes feminism on all those cultures anyway.

    criticize Islamic, Indian, African or Chinese

    That just means there’s less people there who believe in Westernism.

    Meanwhile, the entire history of the Russian people(s) over the last 1000 years has been begging the West for acceptance.

    • Replies: @Jatt Aryaa
    @sher singh

    Another way of putting it.

    With the exception of slave like pajeets those places were conquered by the feminist 19th c West not the ghey West.

    Pajeets & Slavs are culturally stuck in the 70s & were conquered by the homosexual 90s West with collapse of USSR.

    🤷‍♀️

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  232. tattu means someone who sucks ballsacks in Panjabi.

    From tattaa or ballsack.

    😉

  233. @utu
    @Dmitry

    You say those Israeli nature lovers of yours like to commune with nature in Peru, Goa and Patagonia. By getting stoned and doing drug trafficking, right? Here is one who loved nature in Goa and Peru:


    Israeli drug lord held in Goa trafficking case (extradited from Lima, Peru)
    https://mumbaimirror.indiatimes.com/mumbai/other/israeli-drug-lord-held-in-goa-trafficking-case/articleshow/16158833.cms?
     
    The Israeli lovers of nature in Patagonia were quite successful in pissing off the locals who apparently were not appreciative of their love for nature:

    Israeli backpackers suffer antisemitic aggression in Patagonia
    https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jan/21/israeli-backpackers-antisemitic-campaign-patagonia

    Campaign in Argentine Town Calls for Boycott of Israeli Tourists
    https://www.haaretz.com/jewish/argentine-campaign-to-boycott-israelis-1.5351113

    Israeli tourist arrested in huge Patagonia fire
    https://nypost.com/2011/12/31/israeli-tourist-arrested-in-huge-patagonia-fire/

    Israeli tourists a nuisance
    https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4196793,00.html

    Group of Jewish backpackers tortured for hours in Argentinian hostel by locals who chanted they were 'trying to take over Patagonia'
    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2921642/Group-Jewish-backpackers-tortured-hours-Argentinian-hostel-locals-chanted-trying-Patagonia.html
     

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @Dmitry

    Israeli youth culture is marked by elements of communalist, collectivist behaviour among themselves, with anarchism in relation to external surroundings. So they all travel for 6 months to the same places after the army: going to the same Patagonia or boat in the river Amazon. You can see where they are travelling if you search Hebrew in YouTube for the name of the post military trip to South America – hatiul hagol (“the big journey” הטיול הגדול)

    They are choosing the most isolated Southern locations of South America. After arriving, they seem to like hotels run by Israelis, and eat in the Israeli restaurants, and become friends with other Israelis.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCEcB96xEg4.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3E-6mm5UNPc.

    But the communal location choice is somewhere isolated. Young Israeli Jews’ concept of happiness, is not for most of them a night in La Scala in Milan, or to go to the Met in Manhattan, – but being stoned jumping up and down to psytrance in an empty forest in Patagonia.

    But until recently, the Jews that live in America today, were not any sophisticated city people, but rather the opposite.

    A large part of America’s Jews immigrated to the USA directly from primitive small villages in the Western Russian Empire, and Jewish folk culture of that epoch, represented in Yiddish writers like Sholem Aleichem, is about impoverished village life and provincial scandals.

    American Jews have been urbanized to a “big city” life, only as a result of the 20th century immigration patterns and then subsequent embourgeoisement. Today, after a couple of generations they might disproportionately constitute America’s sophisticated city people that are addicted to the Manhattan art gallery and the opera house, but this “big city life” is recent in the family history of most of the American Jews, whose ancestors some generations ago were more likely living like Tevye the milkman, in a primitive village without water, outside Gomel, under leaking wooden roof, and surrounded by mud.

    Possibly we will see in our own lifetime that non-Haredi Jewish culture cannot survive much more than a century as a separate culture in America, and will dissolve as a separate nationality within one or two more generations. While by contrast the Haredi Jews can survive in the city by recreating the intensity of a small village, and that’s why they live in very densely populated communities where everyone can check each other and see if they are obeying the internal religious rules.

    • Thanks: That Would Be Telling
  234. @Dmitry
    It seems like Visegrad countries apart from Slovakia, can be entering the beginning of a third wave of the coronavirus pandemic.

    https://i.imgur.com/9svAM9X.jpg

    There seems to relative lack of success in the lockdowns in the Visegrad countries of the last six months compared to other regions, including different parts of Europe.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    In Hungary people no longer take it seriously and it’s impossible to enforce. Even the cops don’t care for violations, at least often they don’t care. Like theoretically you are supposed to stay home after 8 pm, and people go to private parties etc.

    • Replies: @Dmitry
    @reiner Tor

    In retrospect, it seems pointless those stories of Orban's "state of emergency" last year, when once coronavirus hit the country, Hungary's government would enforce a less effective lockdown than in Western Europe.

    Hungary now has to rely on the population being happy to be injected with a Chinese vaccine that has a lack of public information about it.

    But at least Hungary's government is operating like a developed country in terms of openly reporting daily information about the high numbers of deaths, unlike in Russia and Belarus where you cannot avoid saying there is an intentional attempt to minimize reporting of the real number deaths, even as the government will eventually admit the real number of deaths months later in the most vague way possible.

  235. @silviosilver
    @Morton's toes


    I have two hobbies: reading obscure books and walking in the woods.
     
    Do you really walk in the woods though? I like to tell myself the same thing, but the reality is I'm just walking through parkland. My favorite trail is heavily wooded and runs by a river on one side and a golf course on the other. There are sports grounds close by (football, netball, cricket), and if I go walking at dusk I can hear referee whistles in the distance and I can see the headlights of cars as parents arrive to pick up the kids from training, so even if I'm walking along a portion of the trail where it's where to encounter other people, there are plenty of other reminders that human activity is taking place very nearby. That's quite different to what a walk in the woods meant for most of human history.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @reiner Tor

    Obviously people who like walking in the woods actually like walking along paths maintained by the local forestry department. The woods should have a comfortable presence of humans, like not so many wild beasts (especially not aggressive ones, nor too many and/or too large insects and similar creatures) and relative proximity to civilization.

    But that way it could be something which people find superior to a big city, especially if they do live in a big city. Would they live in the forest, and the city would be a good experience a couple times a month.

  236. @sher singh
    @216

    West pushes feminism on all those cultures anyway.


    criticize Islamic, Indian, African or Chinese
     
    That just means there's less people there who believe in Westernism.

    Meanwhile, the entire history of the Russian people(s) over the last 1000 years has been begging the West for acceptance.

    Replies: @Jatt Aryaa

    Another way of putting it.

    With the exception of slave like pajeets those places were conquered by the feminist 19th c West not the ghey West.

    Pajeets & Slavs are culturally stuck in the 70s & were conquered by the homosexual 90s West with collapse of USSR.

    🤷‍♀️

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Jatt Aryaa

    Wait you are two different people and not the same guy?

    Anyway Kali Yuga will continue for hundreds of years, we are nowhere near the end times when things get really crazy, at least our era still has concepts like family, religion, nation, love, father- and motherhood, though in corrupted form, sadly this madness will go much, much further... Just as foretold by our sages... Only when people collectively and innately understand that there is no happiness in fleeting sensory objects - only then will the Dark Age end. Then the war for [*********] will begin!

    So what one can do in a degenerate time? When it all seems so hopeless? To attach oneself in one's faith as closely as possible, there is no other option. One's Dharma is one's fortress, as well as we uphold our religious obligations and rites, as well will be our fortress's walls and towers manned and guarded.

    As the great Guru Nanak said:

    "Now, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga has come.

    Plant the Naam, the Name of the Lord.

    It is not the season to plant other seeds.

    Do not wander lost in doubt and delusion."

  237. @AaronB
    @dfordoom

    I don't have much time to write, but...

    You certainly aren't a bad person for disliking nature and I'm not going to abuse you :) , but aesthetics seems to me to go deeper than mere accident.

    When we say something is beautiful we mean "this is good for me" and when we say it's ugly we mean "this is bad for me". Or so it seems to me at least. We are making a judgement on the subconscious level.

    So in some sense you are really saying that natural environments are bad for you - which is interesting because this has been a major distinguishing strand in Western thought, the War Against Nature, of seeing nature as Other and as mankind outside and above it, cut off and alienated from it.

    (and I am saying I feel at home in natural environments and feel myself a part of the whole, connected to it nourished by it on a profound level as the source of my being)

    In my opinion, this war against nature has led to the concept of subduing and dominating it, to science, the devastation of natural environments, and then to the war against human nature which culminated in things like Puritanism, Calvinism, the anti-fun movement, and all the various neuroses, anxieties, and the general sense of being repressed and unhappy in modern times.

    People who fear nature fear nature in themselves - and tend to see themselves as outside and above nature, and become alienated and alone in a dead, sterile world; the condition of modern man. They cut themselves off from the Whole.

    Again not a moral condemnation and I would defend your right to never see nature again jn your life :)

    As for Romanticism, it was hardly the first apprecation of nature. The Far East was in love with nature from the begining, and the Pagans thought every river had its nymph and forest it's fauna. The Pagans loved nature.

    The Christian Dark Ages in part turned against nature because it was Pagan, and Christianity is famous for having introduced the division between man and nature. Nature was evil to them. However I believe this is a bad misinterpretation of true Christianity and more a political reaction against Paganism.

    St Francis of Assisi was a great lover of nature, and all those hermits in the deserts and forests, and all those monasteries in especially beautiful natural landscapes... :) Seems to me the heart went where the mouth said it shouldn't.

    Already in the Renaissance Petrarch was writing of his sheer delight in wandering the local woods.

    Romantic love of nature arose precisely when the mechanistic and anti Nature strand in Western culture reached a crescendo, as a counterpoint.

    I think the alienation and malaise of modernity will only heal when Western man reconciles with Nature and once again sees himself as part of the While, and not as outside and above it, or cut off from it, and likewise reconciles with his inner nature.

    After all, urbanism is like 8,000 years old or something - a mere blip in the hundreds of thousands of years man spent in nature experiencing himself as part of the whole.

    But in the meantime I would fully support the establishment of communities of people like you who wish to live only in a man made environment :)

    And now I must continue my journey into the beauties of nature...

    Replies: @Coconuts, @blatnoi

    Does your exploration into the beauties of nature include flesh scarring fungus, leeches, bacterial infections, parasites that live in your eye, malaria, and tapeworms by any chance?

    While it’s great to get spiritual sustenance from nature, nature does not reciprocate and it sees you in purely neutral terms. As a source of sustenance that is part of its food chain for predators big and small. It’s only sedentary civilization and the resulting urbanism, when people had a few free evenings free from damp, hunger, and disease, that has allowed your philosophical musings on nature to develop.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @blatnoi

    And yet it's in the cities worldwide that the current pandemics has taken its highest toll.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    , @dfordoom
    @blatnoi


    Does your exploration into the beauties of nature include flesh scarring fungus, leeches, bacterial infections, parasites that live in your eye, malaria, and tapeworms by any chance?
     
    They're all spiritual experiences, if you look at them the right way. Even getting eaten by a grizzly bear can be a spiritual experience.

    Replies: @blatnoi

    , @silviosilver
    @blatnoi


    While it’s great to get spiritual sustenance from nature, nature does not reciprocate and it sees you in purely neutral terms.
     
    It's technically neutral, but I like to personalize it and say nature tries to thwart human existence at every turn, so fuck nature, nature is the enemy. To me, it's more fun to see it that way.

    Now, while nature can be terribly destructive, it's also tremendously creative, and on the materialist account of human origins, it's this creative force to which we owe our existence, and anything that we do to "transcend" nature unavoidably occurs within nature, so nature merits a measure of respect as well as hatred. But it's a mistake to respect nature too much, because that needlessly humbles us and blinds us to our capacities to improve on the hand that nature has dealt us.

    If respecting nature too much is a mistake, it's certainly a far greater mistake to worship nature, the way greenie lunatics do. The way these sickos fawn over nature repulses me so much. Oh gosh nature is just so lovely and delicate that we mustn't harm a hair on its head. Are you kidding? Someone mentioned Siberia earlier. Great example: wtf is in Siberia worth trying to preserve? Pave the fucking thing over - even if for no other reason than to prove you can. Pave it now! A shopping mall on every square mile of Siberian turf would be a huge upgrade to the ghastly tundra that land is cursed with.

    Replies: @blatnoi, @Daniel Chieh

    , @AaronB
    @blatnoi

    It just so happens, that hunter gatherers had significantly more leisure than was available in agricultural societies, and mankind suffered much more from disease epidemics in crowded cities. And complex civilization introduced harsh hierarchies and slavery.

    We went over this ground before on other threads.

    However, I understand many people on this blog are what I described in my original comment as "hard core materialists", who necessarily view human comfort, or some kind of physical advantage, as the highest ideal.

    Even if everything you say about the discomforts and dangers of nature are real, I am saying prolonged time spend in nature offers an intensely pleasurable experience of a kind not found in cities, which for those who have it, seems well worth the sacrifice in comfort, and which can transform one's sense of place in the universe and put strictly human concerns - like status, money, competition, even survival - in a different perspective.

    After all, many people sacrifice comfort and advantage to climb mountains or race across deserts - and report the experience is worth more than any comfort sacrificed.

    So again, if comfort is your main priority, or safety, or long term survival, or extending human power over the physical world - stay in modern civilization. (Debatable, there is a huge downside in comfort and safety in crowded cities, but I will concede your point).

    But if your main concern is an "experience" - an ecstatic experience of life that cannot even be put into words, that religions sometimes hint at but get badly wrong when they try and institutionalize it, a thrilling sense of mystery, or in less intense form and less dramatic terms simply an experience of pleasure that can't be had in crowded human cities in a man made environment by coming into contact with something elemental - then prolonged contact with magnificent natural settings is the way to go.

    This is certainly not for everyone. Many people might even fear it.

    And even though I come down on the side of a life in nature, I see like cities and see beauty and value in them, and enjoy visiting them for a few days. In some ways, a huge city can be as mysterious as the wilderness, with winding alleys leading to the discovery of strange cafes and bars and art galleries and hidden shrines and temples, and magnificent architecture. In other words not planned, organized, rational cities, but organic cities that retain a whiff of nature.

    So cities can have a Romance of its own, if done right (most modern cities are not).

    I am suggesting that man needs a sense of the mysterious and the numinous, and needs to come into contact with the non human world and see his essential connection with it. That this is not a question of comfort or safety or any kind of purely physical advantage - and even that deprioritizing these things can be beneficial for a while. That man is a part of nature and if he builds cities, to build them in organic, unplanned ways at least in part, that represent the organic pattern of nature and not sterile, cold rationality.

    But to each hisown.

    Replies: @Mikel, @blatnoi

  238. @blatnoi
    @AaronB

    Does your exploration into the beauties of nature include flesh scarring fungus, leeches, bacterial infections, parasites that live in your eye, malaria, and tapeworms by any chance?

    While it's great to get spiritual sustenance from nature, nature does not reciprocate and it sees you in purely neutral terms. As a source of sustenance that is part of its food chain for predators big and small. It's only sedentary civilization and the resulting urbanism, when people had a few free evenings free from damp, hunger, and disease, that has allowed your philosophical musings on nature to develop.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @dfordoom, @silviosilver, @AaronB

    And yet it’s in the cities worldwide that the current pandemics has taken its highest toll.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Bashibuzuk

    In general bugs whose vectors are humans are the most dangerous where other humans are present in large numbers. But there are many different types of bugs.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  239. @Bashibuzuk
    @blatnoi

    And yet it's in the cities worldwide that the current pandemics has taken its highest toll.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    In general bugs whose vectors are humans are the most dangerous where other humans are present in large numbers. But there are many different types of bugs.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @reiner Tor

    In fact human health did not improve during the neolithic agricultural revolution. It deteriorated considerably.


    Years of excavations have identified how the community was laid out, along with changes over time in the local environmental setting and its relationship to animal husbandry practices. That allows multiple lines of evidence to be used when characterizing life at Çatalhöyük, increasing confidence in the research findings. For example, femoral shaft bending strength, which is responsive to habitual activity patterns, indicates long-distance travel when changes in the environment late in the occupation favored wide-ranging caprine herding. However, these animals must still have grazed in the surrounding area, rather than in distant pastures, to judge from the stable isotopic composition of their bones.

    Living in crowded conditions in close association with domesticated animals meant that muck and filth choked passageways among closely spaced houses. In fact, traces of fecal matter, including parasite eggs, were found in buildings and nearby areas. The scale of pollution was related to the community’s size, which had a peak population of several thousand. That puts Çatalhöyük at the upper end of early farming (or Neolithic) settlements elsewhere in the world, so in that respect it shared the problems of large towns in much later complex societies.

    Children in Çatalhöyük suffered from repeated disturbances in the formation of their tooth crowns resulting in pits and grooves known as enamel hypoplasia. Presumably episodes of ill health were largely attributable to continuous contact with soil and water heavily contaminated with feces. These enamel defects are often seen in the skeletons of subsistence agriculturists elsewhere in the world, so the experience of the Çatalhöyük children was not at all unusual
     
    https://www.pnas.org/content/116/28/13721

    Agriculturalists also had less free time, not more leisure as mentioned in the comment by blatnoi. And it's the hunter gatherers who lived in a world still replete with megafauna that created the amazing European cave art.

    Replies: @blatnoi, @reiner Tor

  240. @reiner Tor
    @Bashibuzuk

    In general bugs whose vectors are humans are the most dangerous where other humans are present in large numbers. But there are many different types of bugs.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    In fact human health did not improve during the neolithic agricultural revolution. It deteriorated considerably.

    Years of excavations have identified how the community was laid out, along with changes over time in the local environmental setting and its relationship to animal husbandry practices. That allows multiple lines of evidence to be used when characterizing life at Çatalhöyük, increasing confidence in the research findings. For example, femoral shaft bending strength, which is responsive to habitual activity patterns, indicates long-distance travel when changes in the environment late in the occupation favored wide-ranging caprine herding. However, these animals must still have grazed in the surrounding area, rather than in distant pastures, to judge from the stable isotopic composition of their bones.

    Living in crowded conditions in close association with domesticated animals meant that muck and filth choked passageways among closely spaced houses. In fact, traces of fecal matter, including parasite eggs, were found in buildings and nearby areas. The scale of pollution was related to the community’s size, which had a peak population of several thousand. That puts Çatalhöyük at the upper end of early farming (or Neolithic) settlements elsewhere in the world, so in that respect it shared the problems of large towns in much later complex societies.

    Children in Çatalhöyük suffered from repeated disturbances in the formation of their tooth crowns resulting in pits and grooves known as enamel hypoplasia. Presumably episodes of ill health were largely attributable to continuous contact with soil and water heavily contaminated with feces. These enamel defects are often seen in the skeletons of subsistence agriculturists elsewhere in the world, so the experience of the Çatalhöyük children was not at all unusual

    https://www.pnas.org/content/116/28/13721

    Agriculturalists also had less free time, not more leisure as mentioned in the comment by blatnoi. And it’s the hunter gatherers who lived in a world still replete with megafauna that created the amazing European cave art.

    • Replies: @blatnoi
    @Bashibuzuk

    The agricultural revolution allowed a gigantic increase in population. Even the losers with poor health preferred it to the daily struggle against nature, and of course the big plus was the creation of an elite that allowed for mathematics, writing, and all the things that make civilization pleasant for us.

    You might appreciate this idea more if you watch the first episode of James Burke's famous old show, 'Connections', which tracks the development of the Egyptian civilization from the invention of the plow.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XetplHcM7aQ

    Viruses and bacteria also existed before the agricultural revolution, but the progress since then has allowed us to come up with vaccines. I think that the best way you can appreciate nature is to think about its deadly and indifferent cruelty to the average primitive human, while hiking in the mountains. It makes me also appreciate civilization a lot more, since it allows me to hike in the mountains unnecessarily, not worrying that I'm taking a risk breaking my leg (which would mean certain death for a hunter/gatherer) or if I get some strange disease after the hike is over.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    , @reiner Tor
    @Bashibuzuk

    Depending on how barbarian they were, the majority of our ancestors have practiced agriculture for 2,000-10,000 years, and those who didn’t were usually nomads rather than hunter-gatherers. This means that we have been heavily selected for that lifestyle rather than hunting-gathering, so we are probably no longer well suited for that.

    But you are correct that the horrible diet of early (and even later) agriculturalists (including ourselves) was way worse than what the hunter-gatherers ate, and the introduction of lots of new diseases with human vectors caused a marked deterioration of quality of life as well as lifespan and healthspan.

  241. @dfordoom
    @AP


    I find that “organic-seeming” architecture made by people more connected to the natural world (such as the builders of the Gothic cathedrals) is more beautiful than modernist works made by people who are disconnected from the natural world.
     
    That's a valid preference, although it's not my preference.

    I see nature as ugly and depressing and I see art as a valiant attempt to create beauty in an ugly world. At least that's how I see the function of art.

    Of course the artistic establishment stopped believing in any kind of beauty a hundred years ago.

    But some modernist architects (and I emphasise some) did still manage to create beauty. Most just created ugliness, but not all.

    I don't dislike “organic-seeming” architecture. An artist (or an architect) can take the ugliness of nature and create something beautiful out of it.

    Natural things are more beautiful when the chaos of nature is moulded into some kind of order. Forests are ugly, but formal gardens are beautiful.

    I don't subscribe to the Cult of Nature, which I consider to be one of the many pernicious legacies of the Romantic Movement.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @AP, @songbird, @Not Only Wrathful

    The name dfordoom is apposite then! Sorry that must be tough

  242. @Bashibuzuk
    @reiner Tor

    In fact human health did not improve during the neolithic agricultural revolution. It deteriorated considerably.


    Years of excavations have identified how the community was laid out, along with changes over time in the local environmental setting and its relationship to animal husbandry practices. That allows multiple lines of evidence to be used when characterizing life at Çatalhöyük, increasing confidence in the research findings. For example, femoral shaft bending strength, which is responsive to habitual activity patterns, indicates long-distance travel when changes in the environment late in the occupation favored wide-ranging caprine herding. However, these animals must still have grazed in the surrounding area, rather than in distant pastures, to judge from the stable isotopic composition of their bones.

    Living in crowded conditions in close association with domesticated animals meant that muck and filth choked passageways among closely spaced houses. In fact, traces of fecal matter, including parasite eggs, were found in buildings and nearby areas. The scale of pollution was related to the community’s size, which had a peak population of several thousand. That puts Çatalhöyük at the upper end of early farming (or Neolithic) settlements elsewhere in the world, so in that respect it shared the problems of large towns in much later complex societies.

    Children in Çatalhöyük suffered from repeated disturbances in the formation of their tooth crowns resulting in pits and grooves known as enamel hypoplasia. Presumably episodes of ill health were largely attributable to continuous contact with soil and water heavily contaminated with feces. These enamel defects are often seen in the skeletons of subsistence agriculturists elsewhere in the world, so the experience of the Çatalhöyük children was not at all unusual
     
    https://www.pnas.org/content/116/28/13721

    Agriculturalists also had less free time, not more leisure as mentioned in the comment by blatnoi. And it's the hunter gatherers who lived in a world still replete with megafauna that created the amazing European cave art.

    Replies: @blatnoi, @reiner Tor

    The agricultural revolution allowed a gigantic increase in population. Even the losers with poor health preferred it to the daily struggle against nature, and of course the big plus was the creation of an elite that allowed for mathematics, writing, and all the things that make civilization pleasant for us.

    You might appreciate this idea more if you watch the first episode of James Burke’s famous old show, ‘Connections’, which tracks the development of the Egyptian civilization from the invention of the plow.

    Viruses and bacteria also existed before the agricultural revolution, but the progress since then has allowed us to come up with vaccines. I think that the best way you can appreciate nature is to think about its deadly and indifferent cruelty to the average primitive human, while hiking in the mountains. It makes me also appreciate civilization a lot more, since it allows me to hike in the mountains unnecessarily, not worrying that I’m taking a risk breaking my leg (which would mean certain death for a hunter/gatherer) or if I get some strange disease after the hike is over.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @blatnoi


    and of course the big plus was the creation of an elite that allowed for mathematics, writing, and all the things that make civilization pleasant for us.
     
    Correct.

    You might appreciate this idea more if you watch the first episode of James Burke’s famous old show, ‘Connections’,
     
    That was a great TV series. His later series The Day the Universe Changed was just as good.

    It makes me also appreciate civilization a lot more
     
    It seems that people who appreciate civilisation are more and more a minority.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  243. @blatnoi
    @AaronB

    Does your exploration into the beauties of nature include flesh scarring fungus, leeches, bacterial infections, parasites that live in your eye, malaria, and tapeworms by any chance?

    While it's great to get spiritual sustenance from nature, nature does not reciprocate and it sees you in purely neutral terms. As a source of sustenance that is part of its food chain for predators big and small. It's only sedentary civilization and the resulting urbanism, when people had a few free evenings free from damp, hunger, and disease, that has allowed your philosophical musings on nature to develop.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @dfordoom, @silviosilver, @AaronB

    Does your exploration into the beauties of nature include flesh scarring fungus, leeches, bacterial infections, parasites that live in your eye, malaria, and tapeworms by any chance?

    They’re all spiritual experiences, if you look at them the right way. Even getting eaten by a grizzly bear can be a spiritual experience.

    • LOL: Bashibuzuk
    • Replies: @blatnoi
    @dfordoom


    They’re all spiritual experiences, if you look at them the right way.
     
    I would say then, that it's a much more pleasant spiritual experience for the onlooker, which would be the right way to look at them, than for the partaker.
  244. @blatnoi
    @Bashibuzuk

    The agricultural revolution allowed a gigantic increase in population. Even the losers with poor health preferred it to the daily struggle against nature, and of course the big plus was the creation of an elite that allowed for mathematics, writing, and all the things that make civilization pleasant for us.

    You might appreciate this idea more if you watch the first episode of James Burke's famous old show, 'Connections', which tracks the development of the Egyptian civilization from the invention of the plow.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XetplHcM7aQ

    Viruses and bacteria also existed before the agricultural revolution, but the progress since then has allowed us to come up with vaccines. I think that the best way you can appreciate nature is to think about its deadly and indifferent cruelty to the average primitive human, while hiking in the mountains. It makes me also appreciate civilization a lot more, since it allows me to hike in the mountains unnecessarily, not worrying that I'm taking a risk breaking my leg (which would mean certain death for a hunter/gatherer) or if I get some strange disease after the hike is over.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    and of course the big plus was the creation of an elite that allowed for mathematics, writing, and all the things that make civilization pleasant for us.

    Correct.

    You might appreciate this idea more if you watch the first episode of James Burke’s famous old show, ‘Connections’,

    That was a great TV series. His later series The Day the Universe Changed was just as good.

    It makes me also appreciate civilization a lot more

    It seems that people who appreciate civilisation are more and more a minority.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @dfordoom


    It seems that people who appreciate civilisation are more and more a minority.
     
    What in your opinion causes this?

    Replies: @silviosilver, @dfordoom, @dfordoom

  245. @dfordoom
    @blatnoi


    and of course the big plus was the creation of an elite that allowed for mathematics, writing, and all the things that make civilization pleasant for us.
     
    Correct.

    You might appreciate this idea more if you watch the first episode of James Burke’s famous old show, ‘Connections’,
     
    That was a great TV series. His later series The Day the Universe Changed was just as good.

    It makes me also appreciate civilization a lot more
     
    It seems that people who appreciate civilisation are more and more a minority.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    It seems that people who appreciate civilisation are more and more a minority.

    What in your opinion causes this?

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    @Bashibuzuk

    I think the main thing is taking it for granted. "You don't know what you've got till it's gone." It's like some dumb rich kid thinking that being wealthy is "overrated." Wtf does that moron really know about it? Deprive him of his riches and see quickly he changes his tune.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @Daniel Chieh

    , @dfordoom
    @Bashibuzuk



    It seems that people who appreciate civilisation are more and more a minority.
     
    What in your opinion causes this?
     
    One of the big things has been environmentalism which has taught people that civilisation is wicked because it's supposedly destroying the planet. Environmentalism is a weird quasi-religious doomsday cult but most people (even on the Right) have swallowed it hook, line and sinker. Environmentalism has much in common with the Romantic Movement - a silly sentimental worship of nature, an irrational hostility to industrialisation (factories bad, forests good) a simplistic rejection of materialism, phoney pop spiritualism and the idea of technological progress as sinful.

    What's really worrying is that so many people on the Right (or at least on the far right) have become anti-civilisational. Partly that's because they hate cities because they think cities are full of liberals. Partly it's because far right Christians think cities are full of atheists. Partly it's the growing irrationalism of the far right - the story of western civilisation from the beginning of the sixteenth century has been the story of the triumph of reason over superstition but the far right prefers superstition (as evidenced by their obsession with conspiracy theories).

    Partly it's the American far right's idealisation of 18th and 19th century (or even 17th century) rural life - sturdy patriots with guns, women who did what they were told, close-knit communities in which everyone believed in God and guns and hated commies, an idealised nostalgia for an era when non-whites knew their place and grovelled to the White Man, a nostalgia for an age in which kids did what their parents wanted and if they didn't then obedience was beaten into them, an era in which uppity women got what was coming to them.

    The American far right would have like history to stop around the mid-19th century.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    , @dfordoom
    @Bashibuzuk

    It seems that people who appreciate civilisation are more and more a minority.

    What in your opinion causes this?


    Another interesting thing to consider is the far right's hostility to art, which is an important component of the far right's anti-civilisational bias.

    I can understand that hostility up to a point. When you look at the sorry history of western art over the past century then hostility towards art is understandable. And artists have very often been liberals or leftists.

    But for some on the far right that has led to hostility towards art in general. And it has strengthened their hostility to civilisation since they see art and civilisation as being closely linked, which of course they are.

  246. @blatnoi
    @AaronB

    Does your exploration into the beauties of nature include flesh scarring fungus, leeches, bacterial infections, parasites that live in your eye, malaria, and tapeworms by any chance?

    While it's great to get spiritual sustenance from nature, nature does not reciprocate and it sees you in purely neutral terms. As a source of sustenance that is part of its food chain for predators big and small. It's only sedentary civilization and the resulting urbanism, when people had a few free evenings free from damp, hunger, and disease, that has allowed your philosophical musings on nature to develop.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @dfordoom, @silviosilver, @AaronB

    While it’s great to get spiritual sustenance from nature, nature does not reciprocate and it sees you in purely neutral terms.

    It’s technically neutral, but I like to personalize it and say nature tries to thwart human existence at every turn, so fuck nature, nature is the enemy. To me, it’s more fun to see it that way.

    Now, while nature can be terribly destructive, it’s also tremendously creative, and on the materialist account of human origins, it’s this creative force to which we owe our existence, and anything that we do to “transcend” nature unavoidably occurs within nature, so nature merits a measure of respect as well as hatred. But it’s a mistake to respect nature too much, because that needlessly humbles us and blinds us to our capacities to improve on the hand that nature has dealt us.

    If respecting nature too much is a mistake, it’s certainly a far greater mistake to worship nature, the way greenie lunatics do. The way these sickos fawn over nature repulses me so much. Oh gosh nature is just so lovely and delicate that we mustn’t harm a hair on its head. Are you kidding? Someone mentioned Siberia earlier. Great example: wtf is in Siberia worth trying to preserve? Pave the fucking thing over – even if for no other reason than to prove you can. Pave it now! A shopping mall on every square mile of Siberian turf would be a huge upgrade to the ghastly tundra that land is cursed with.

    • Replies: @blatnoi
    @silviosilver


    Great example: wtf is in Siberia worth trying to preserve? Pave the fucking thing over – even if for no other reason than to prove you can. Pave it now! A shopping mall on every square mile of Siberian turf would be a huge upgrade to the ghastly tundra that land is cursed with.
     
    Sounds great in theory, but the problem is that as you knowledge, you are incorrect here:

    It’s technically neutral, but I like to personalize it and say nature tries to thwart human existence at every turn, so fuck nature, nature is the enemy.
     
    Since in reality nature is neutral and humans are part of nature, our brains are wired to become happy from natural cues such as increasing sunlight, birdsong, breathing fresh air, etc... You can't divorce your brain from your body, which receives environmental cues, and tells you to be under sunlight to be happy. This is why I enjoy hiking in the mountains or desert canyons. Enjoying being in nature is something that is required for human happiness until we transfer our consciences into robotic bodies (spoiler: don't worry about this). You won't be able to sustain your hatred for nature if you consider it logically, but you don't want to go the full AaronB either.

    This is also why living on Mars will never happen on scale unless the planet is previously terraformed (spoiler: which won't happen anytime soon since Elon Musk is a bit of a fantasist/(con-man?)) Can you imagine living in a small room for the rest of your life, with no birds flying outside the window, not being able to go outside without a space-suit, slowly deteriorating bone density due to the lower gravity?

    Replies: @songbird, @reiner Tor, @silviosilver

    , @Daniel Chieh
    @silviosilver

    Even if you thought of it as an enemy, to needlessly pick fights with powerful forces is a good way to ensure one's doom.

  247. @dfordoom
    @blatnoi


    Does your exploration into the beauties of nature include flesh scarring fungus, leeches, bacterial infections, parasites that live in your eye, malaria, and tapeworms by any chance?
     
    They're all spiritual experiences, if you look at them the right way. Even getting eaten by a grizzly bear can be a spiritual experience.

    Replies: @blatnoi

    They’re all spiritual experiences, if you look at them the right way.

    I would say then, that it’s a much more pleasant spiritual experience for the onlooker, which would be the right way to look at them, than for the partaker.

  248. @Bashibuzuk
    @dfordoom


    It seems that people who appreciate civilisation are more and more a minority.
     
    What in your opinion causes this?

    Replies: @silviosilver, @dfordoom, @dfordoom

    I think the main thing is taking it for granted. “You don’t know what you’ve got till it’s gone.” It’s like some dumb rich kid thinking that being wealthy is “overrated.” Wtf does that moron really know about it? Deprive him of his riches and see quickly he changes his tune.

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @silviosilver

    OTOH I think there might be more to this rejection of civilization. Calhoun's Universe 25 experiment comes to mind. People living under strong civilizations end up mentally and morally exhausted. It's dehumanizing to spend one's whole life in an artificial environment. We need to walk the middle path between culture/civilization and nature/wilderness. We need to be able to do complex work, contemplate abstract ideas and yet retain some "feral" aspects of our human nature.

    Too much of civilization kills civilization.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    , @Daniel Chieh
    @silviosilver

    Both nature and engineering are ultimately but manifestations of the purer and more beautiful mind of God. There is divinity in Man for when He created us from clay and spirit in His Image and as such we wrought much that is beautiful, but there is also the order and beauty in the wild. In the end, there is nothing that is engineered that has not been based in principles of nature, viz nature. I am a transhumanist but I also see the divine in all things.

    Sir Francis Bacon, one of my inspirations said as much:


    Human knowledge and human power meet in one; for where the cause is not known the effect cannot be produced. Nature to be commanded must be obeyed; and that which in contemplation is as the cause is in operation as the rule.

     

    It is impossible for me not to see some element of the divine, even if it is beyond the absolute understanding of the human mind. When I was a child, a poisonous snake ambushed me in the yard and a pair of mockingbirds swooped out from their territory to drive it forth and away from me. An explainable happenstance: snakes are in wet places, mockingbirds are hostile hosts in the territory they reside in, and more hostile to snakes than they are to human children - but even so, there feels a symbolism in it that I have always appreciated and felt that inasmuch as nature threatened me, so did nature preserve me.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  249. @silviosilver
    @blatnoi


    While it’s great to get spiritual sustenance from nature, nature does not reciprocate and it sees you in purely neutral terms.
     
    It's technically neutral, but I like to personalize it and say nature tries to thwart human existence at every turn, so fuck nature, nature is the enemy. To me, it's more fun to see it that way.

    Now, while nature can be terribly destructive, it's also tremendously creative, and on the materialist account of human origins, it's this creative force to which we owe our existence, and anything that we do to "transcend" nature unavoidably occurs within nature, so nature merits a measure of respect as well as hatred. But it's a mistake to respect nature too much, because that needlessly humbles us and blinds us to our capacities to improve on the hand that nature has dealt us.

    If respecting nature too much is a mistake, it's certainly a far greater mistake to worship nature, the way greenie lunatics do. The way these sickos fawn over nature repulses me so much. Oh gosh nature is just so lovely and delicate that we mustn't harm a hair on its head. Are you kidding? Someone mentioned Siberia earlier. Great example: wtf is in Siberia worth trying to preserve? Pave the fucking thing over - even if for no other reason than to prove you can. Pave it now! A shopping mall on every square mile of Siberian turf would be a huge upgrade to the ghastly tundra that land is cursed with.

    Replies: @blatnoi, @Daniel Chieh

    Great example: wtf is in Siberia worth trying to preserve? Pave the fucking thing over – even if for no other reason than to prove you can. Pave it now! A shopping mall on every square mile of Siberian turf would be a huge upgrade to the ghastly tundra that land is cursed with.

    Sounds great in theory, but the problem is that as you knowledge, you are incorrect here:

    It’s technically neutral, but I like to personalize it and say nature tries to thwart human existence at every turn, so fuck nature, nature is the enemy.

    Since in reality nature is neutral and humans are part of nature, our brains are wired to become happy from natural cues such as increasing sunlight, birdsong, breathing fresh air, etc… You can’t divorce your brain from your body, which receives environmental cues, and tells you to be under sunlight to be happy. This is why I enjoy hiking in the mountains or desert canyons. Enjoying being in nature is something that is required for human happiness until we transfer our consciences into robotic bodies (spoiler: don’t worry about this). You won’t be able to sustain your hatred for nature if you consider it logically, but you don’t want to go the full AaronB either.

    This is also why living on Mars will never happen on scale unless the planet is previously terraformed (spoiler: which won’t happen anytime soon since Elon Musk is a bit of a fantasist/(con-man?)) Can you imagine living in a small room for the rest of your life, with no birds flying outside the window, not being able to go outside without a space-suit, slowly deteriorating bone density due to the lower gravity?

    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @songbird
    @blatnoi


    Can you imagine living in a small room for the rest of your life, with no birds flying outside the window, not being able to go outside without a space-suit
     
    Supposing that they can solve basic problems, get a basic industry going, or get durable equipment there, then I think that they could create some really fantastic underground spaces on Mars. Even ones populated with small birds, or other small wildlife.

    Some of the Mars enthusiasts are really nutso though. I heard one talking the other day about walking a dog on Mars and using it in spacesuit to smell out mineral resources! I wonder if some of these crazy ideas about Mars are due to our low fertility culture. I've been thinking that a truly natalist culture would have built a space station in LEO big enough to simulate Mars gravity (with spin) to figure out if it was enough to have babies. And for them to mature and be fertile.

    Replies: @mal

    , @reiner Tor
    @blatnoi

    I agree that it’s just bizarre to hate nature, while worshiping nature without considering that most of us (I guess everyone in this thread) would quickly die without civilization is equally silly. People need some kind of tamed nature for their happiness and perhaps even to stay alive, and they need civilization to... stay alive.

    Replies: @dfordoom, @Morton's toes

    , @silviosilver
    @blatnoi


    You won’t be able to sustain your hatred for nature if you consider it logically, but you don’t want to go the full AaronB either.
     
    Lol, come on. You really think I'm sitting here in my seat, gripping the armrests, grinding my teeth and stewing with hatred at nature? ("goddam fucking nature, just you wait, I'll show you, ya bastard!!!")

    As I acknowledged, everything that I am (and think and feel) is inescapably a part of nature, so unless I strike you as a complete moron, it's silly to take my "fuck nature" statement too literally.

    While the distinction between natural and manmade is obviously artificial and illusory, in everyday language we all know what it's trying to get at, and I think I'm perfectly within my rights to be more impressed by the latter, and maintaining an attitude of "fuck nature" is the surest antidote I know against being seduced into worshipping the former.

    Replies: @blatnoi

  250. @silviosilver
    @blatnoi


    While it’s great to get spiritual sustenance from nature, nature does not reciprocate and it sees you in purely neutral terms.
     
    It's technically neutral, but I like to personalize it and say nature tries to thwart human existence at every turn, so fuck nature, nature is the enemy. To me, it's more fun to see it that way.

    Now, while nature can be terribly destructive, it's also tremendously creative, and on the materialist account of human origins, it's this creative force to which we owe our existence, and anything that we do to "transcend" nature unavoidably occurs within nature, so nature merits a measure of respect as well as hatred. But it's a mistake to respect nature too much, because that needlessly humbles us and blinds us to our capacities to improve on the hand that nature has dealt us.

    If respecting nature too much is a mistake, it's certainly a far greater mistake to worship nature, the way greenie lunatics do. The way these sickos fawn over nature repulses me so much. Oh gosh nature is just so lovely and delicate that we mustn't harm a hair on its head. Are you kidding? Someone mentioned Siberia earlier. Great example: wtf is in Siberia worth trying to preserve? Pave the fucking thing over - even if for no other reason than to prove you can. Pave it now! A shopping mall on every square mile of Siberian turf would be a huge upgrade to the ghastly tundra that land is cursed with.

    Replies: @blatnoi, @Daniel Chieh

    Even if you thought of it as an enemy, to needlessly pick fights with powerful forces is a good way to ensure one’s doom.

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk, reiner Tor
  251. @silviosilver
    @Bashibuzuk

    I think the main thing is taking it for granted. "You don't know what you've got till it's gone." It's like some dumb rich kid thinking that being wealthy is "overrated." Wtf does that moron really know about it? Deprive him of his riches and see quickly he changes his tune.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @Daniel Chieh

    OTOH I think there might be more to this rejection of civilization. Calhoun’s Universe 25 experiment comes to mind. People living under strong civilizations end up mentally and morally exhausted. It’s dehumanizing to spend one’s whole life in an artificial environment. We need to walk the middle path between culture/civilization and nature/wilderness. We need to be able to do complex work, contemplate abstract ideas and yet retain some “feral” aspects of our human nature.

    Too much of civilization kills civilization.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Bashibuzuk


    It’s dehumanizing to spend one’s whole life in an artificial environment.
     
    It depends on the person and it depends on the artificial environment.

    I'd find it dehumanising to have to live in a shack in the wilderness, with only guns and a Bible for company. But some members of the far right would love it.

    People vary. Some people need to be surrounded by lots of other people while some prefer solitude. Some people need to be near forests and some people need to be near shops and museums and art galleries. Some people like Italian food while others don't. Some people like playing golf while others like playing chess. Some people like hiking and some people like fast cars. Some people like living in city centres, some like living in suburbia, some like living in small towns, some like living in the wilderness.

    It's dangerous to start thinking that one's own preferences must be shared by others and it's even more dangerous to think that there's something wrong with people who have different preferences. That's dehumanising. And it's a kind of dehumanising thinking that is increasingly common among both liberals and conservatives.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  252. @silviosilver
    @Bashibuzuk

    I think the main thing is taking it for granted. "You don't know what you've got till it's gone." It's like some dumb rich kid thinking that being wealthy is "overrated." Wtf does that moron really know about it? Deprive him of his riches and see quickly he changes his tune.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @Daniel Chieh

    Both nature and engineering are ultimately but manifestations of the purer and more beautiful mind of God. There is divinity in Man for when He created us from clay and spirit in His Image and as such we wrought much that is beautiful, but there is also the order and beauty in the wild. In the end, there is nothing that is engineered that has not been based in principles of nature, viz nature. I am a transhumanist but I also see the divine in all things.

    Sir Francis Bacon, one of my inspirations said as much:

    Human knowledge and human power meet in one; for where the cause is not known the effect cannot be produced. Nature to be commanded must be obeyed; and that which in contemplation is as the cause is in operation as the rule.

    It is impossible for me not to see some element of the divine, even if it is beyond the absolute understanding of the human mind. When I was a child, a poisonous snake ambushed me in the yard and a pair of mockingbirds swooped out from their territory to drive it forth and away from me. An explainable happenstance: snakes are in wet places, mockingbirds are hostile hosts in the territory they reside in, and more hostile to snakes than they are to human children – but even so, there feels a symbolism in it that I have always appreciated and felt that inasmuch as nature threatened me, so did nature preserve me.

    • Thanks: Bashibuzuk, utu, reiner Tor
    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Daniel Chieh

    You believe in intelligent design?!

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

  253. @Dmitry
    @songbird

    I don't think the LGBT topic is very important, as it was just a marketing gimmick (the cultural difference between Russia and the West on LGBT, is exaggerated a lot - it's more like a difference of etiquette about the topic)

    The "Age of Tatu" (2000-2010) will be seen as a relatively peak of Russian pop music, in comparison to the "Age of Timati" (2010-2020), when postsoviet pop music become increasingly globalized and generic sounding.

    Although it was already in 2005, when Tatu is last produced with half-postsoviet pop sounds.

    For example, the song "Disabled People" (2005) the producer is already at half-authentic Russian/postsoviet pop sounds.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9526tRl4w2E


    By 2009, Tatu is sounding much more like London pop of the 2000s.

    E.g. by 2009 Tatu has become musically globalized, and this is the trend for Russian pop to lose any idiosyncratic sounds into the 2010s.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Qjx8IXkgjE


    -


    It's an interesting question what can make a different nationality, create a specific pop sound, that is distinctive to its culture, and what causes this to end.

    In Japanese pop, the explanation seems to be quite simple, as its distinctive sound is mainly on the harmonic level, as a result of the higher training of its musicians: that is we hear in Japanese pop music a lot of sophisticate voicings in the chords, and use of higher intervals including the melody.

    Japanese pop is being very stubborn to be one of the last nationalities to hold onto unusual different sounds into the 2020s.

    Replies: @216, @songbird

    I don’t think the LGBT topic is very important, as it was just a marketing gimmick

    It was amazingly effective, though. When I first heard about them, I looked them up, and I thought, “sound isn’t great, and I know prettier girls.” But I was impressed that they got on my radar (all the way from Russia) by someone actually telling me about them. I would say it might be the second-best marketing gimmick, after The Blair Witch Project.

    Modern pop is pretty bad, but putting it aside (and globalism), it is interesting to consider the music of different countries. I feel some just have terrible music for HBD reasons. But I am not knowledgeable enough to draw the full map, and some places might be so influenced by Western tastes, like Hawaii and Japan (even though it is surely unique in a way) that it is difficult to tell, what the true native sound is. Anyway, one eccentric idea might be to create a passport system based on musical tastes – would have prevented 9/11.

    • Replies: @Vishnugupta
    @songbird

    I wonder if someone has done solid research on this.

    I intuitively reached a similar conclusion in the early 2000s when I as a college kid discovered trance music and listned to pretty much nothing else for the next few years. This was the era when PvD,BT,ATB,Tiesto etc were at their peak.

    I first thought others would also love this and the reason they don't is because it wasn't commercially available in India(this was the era of Napster,Audiogalaxy and dial up internet)..but that wasn't the case..at all.

    Then I noticed an overwhelming majority of artists were German,Dutch and Northern Europeans.

    Perhaps there is a gene/s which enables some people to visualize or otherwise experience music without needing lyrics.Such genes may also positively correlate with other useful attributes.

    Replies: @Jatt Aryaa, @songbird, @AltanBakshi, @mal

    , @Dmitry
    @songbird

    I don't know if anyone here is nerdy enough to be interested in posts about music theory?

    Tatu had visionary Japanese anime aesthetics, and the lesbian marketing gimmick (that probably real lesbians should be offended about), but early Tatu was also musically good, with distinctive local Russian, postsoviet sounds.

    We can hear there are some very Russian "melodic grammar" in early Tatu songs.

    For example, in the song Gay Boy - if you can ignore the fake LGBT marketing gimmick in lyrics (that implies that female singer is heterosexual), musically well written song, with some authentic Russian traits.

    If you listen to the intervals in 0:53 in the melody ("apologies, might have beens, malchik gay, malchik gay") I can hear is a rising second and falling fourth interval of the melody.

    This rising second to falling fourth sound, was a bit of self-conscious trademark for a group of Russian nationalist composers (especially Tchaikovsky, Musorgsky, et al, who were both gay) since the late 19th century, and of course it's very common in Soviet pop songs.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2wRhevyP7pc

    It's since the mid-2000s or 2010s especially, that the Russian pop music has been washed out of distinctive local elements, while in early 2000s Tatu we still hear what I would interpret as local Russian sounds.


    be so influenced by Western tastes, like Hawaii and Japan (even though it is surely unique in a way) that it is difficult to tell, what the true native sound is
     
    The distinctively Japanese sounding harmonic element found frequently in their pop songs since at least the 1990s, was first used in Western classical and jazz music. However, it represents something very Japanese, in the sense of the showing the appetite for more complex and refined sounds.

    This shows both the Japanese pop composers have more advanced training in theory and voicings, but also that there is more taste for complexity in the audience for Japanese pop music. And that is something which probably expresses the national quality of the culture (i.e. higher average musicality of the Japanese pop music consumers).
  254. @blatnoi
    @AaronB

    Does your exploration into the beauties of nature include flesh scarring fungus, leeches, bacterial infections, parasites that live in your eye, malaria, and tapeworms by any chance?

    While it's great to get spiritual sustenance from nature, nature does not reciprocate and it sees you in purely neutral terms. As a source of sustenance that is part of its food chain for predators big and small. It's only sedentary civilization and the resulting urbanism, when people had a few free evenings free from damp, hunger, and disease, that has allowed your philosophical musings on nature to develop.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @dfordoom, @silviosilver, @AaronB

    It just so happens, that hunter gatherers had significantly more leisure than was available in agricultural societies, and mankind suffered much more from disease epidemics in crowded cities. And complex civilization introduced harsh hierarchies and slavery.

    We went over this ground before on other threads.

    However, I understand many people on this blog are what I described in my original comment as “hard core materialists”, who necessarily view human comfort, or some kind of physical advantage, as the highest ideal.

    Even if everything you say about the discomforts and dangers of nature are real, I am saying prolonged time spend in nature offers an intensely pleasurable experience of a kind not found in cities, which for those who have it, seems well worth the sacrifice in comfort, and which can transform one’s sense of place in the universe and put strictly human concerns – like status, money, competition, even survival – in a different perspective.

    After all, many people sacrifice comfort and advantage to climb mountains or race across deserts – and report the experience is worth more than any comfort sacrificed.

    So again, if comfort is your main priority, or safety, or long term survival, or extending human power over the physical world – stay in modern civilization. (Debatable, there is a huge downside in comfort and safety in crowded cities, but I will concede your point).

    But if your main concern is an “experience” – an ecstatic experience of life that cannot even be put into words, that religions sometimes hint at but get badly wrong when they try and institutionalize it, a thrilling sense of mystery, or in less intense form and less dramatic terms simply an experience of pleasure that can’t be had in crowded human cities in a man made environment by coming into contact with something elemental – then prolonged contact with magnificent natural settings is the way to go.

    This is certainly not for everyone. Many people might even fear it.

    And even though I come down on the side of a life in nature, I see like cities and see beauty and value in them, and enjoy visiting them for a few days. In some ways, a huge city can be as mysterious as the wilderness, with winding alleys leading to the discovery of strange cafes and bars and art galleries and hidden shrines and temples, and magnificent architecture. In other words not planned, organized, rational cities, but organic cities that retain a whiff of nature.

    So cities can have a Romance of its own, if done right (most modern cities are not).

    I am suggesting that man needs a sense of the mysterious and the numinous, and needs to come into contact with the non human world and see his essential connection with it. That this is not a question of comfort or safety or any kind of purely physical advantage – and even that deprioritizing these things can be beneficial for a while. That man is a part of nature and if he builds cities, to build them in organic, unplanned ways at least in part, that represent the organic pattern of nature and not sterile, cold rationality.

    But to each hisown.

    • Replies: @Mikel
    @AaronB

    As you know, the West is so vast that you may have visited an area several times but you can still discover new wonders on the next trip by just changing the route a little bit.

    This time I'd say that the highlights of my weekend trip have been the Trail of the Ancients, comparable to Monument Valley, and the Sangre de Cristo mountain foothills north of Santa Fe. I was expecting the typical landscape of these southern, high-altitude areas: thick forests with a high timberline hiding the top ridge. What I found instead was an amazing combination of bare red rock desert cliffs and a snowed mountain chain in the background, where the highest alpine peaks were perfectly visible.

    As the New York painter (ie someone who loved human-made beauty) Georgia O'Keefe said before moving to this part of NM, "it's so beautiful there, it's ridiculous".

    On the other hand, most everyone you see in this area seems to be Mexican or Native American and it shows in the houses and trailers where they live. Generally run-down and untidy. It reminded me of the popular barrios in Chile. Some houses did retain the very nice adobe architecture of the colonial times, though.

    Replies: @AaronB

    , @blatnoi
    @AaronB


    It just so happens, that hunter gatherers had significantly more leisure than was available in agricultural societies, and mankind suffered much more from disease epidemics in crowded cities. And complex civilization introduced harsh hierarchies and slavery.
     
    The hunter gatherer lifestyle also meant a much lower population density, and you cannot be sure it was that much greater leisure. The few who survived to adulthood would have a greater abundance of calories, but would also face war and population collapse. Living in an ordered agricultural society on the Nile meant that you could be assured that not all your children will die before 5 years old and you could hope for them to move up in the hierarchy.

    I am suggesting that man needs a sense of the mysterious and the numinous, and needs to come into contact with the non human world and see his essential connection with it.
     
    Today I used two machines that cost a million dollars to look at some properties of substances that I made that would not exist in free nature, but obeys its laws. Only two countries have companies that sell these machines for basic/industrial research (USA one company for both types and Japan two companies for each instrument type). I guess other countries can make something in-house for a boutique use, but these are our only options since these companies specialize on making easy to use instruments in largish numbers. This is a very involved supply chain and required thousands of years of civilizational advance to get to this point, with straight streets so that the instrument doesn't get tipped over on a sharp turn. Looking at an electron density map that has tight peaks (and thus would give a good quality structure) and letting a computer algorithm solve it in 10 seconds, or at a very pure nuclear magnetic resonance spectrum with its sharp peaks for each hydrogen nucleus after the computer performed a Fourier transform on a bunch of overlapping frequencies in the time domain, allowed me to see two very unusual compounds this week that will probably turn into two papers a few years from now. But it also filled me with a sense of wonder of how the atoms could be put together to make these compounds that are really surprising and unexpected. It's basically looking at rules of nature and a non-human world, and having our advanced civilization to thank for it.

    Your ability to appreciate nature as some sort of a religious experience is also dependent on advances made by our civilization, but perhaps not as blatantly explicit and technological as the example above and maybe having something to do with an Enlightenment influenced philosophy (Hermann Hesse?). You probably realize this to the extent that you didn't disappear in the woods like Ted Kaczynski or an Irish hermit monk, and are still checking the Internet and leaving comments on various websites.

    Replies: @AaronB

  255. @Jatt Aryaa
    @sher singh

    Another way of putting it.

    With the exception of slave like pajeets those places were conquered by the feminist 19th c West not the ghey West.

    Pajeets & Slavs are culturally stuck in the 70s & were conquered by the homosexual 90s West with collapse of USSR.

    🤷‍♀️

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    Wait you are two different people and not the same guy?

    Anyway Kali Yuga will continue for hundreds of years, we are nowhere near the end times when things get really crazy, at least our era still has concepts like family, religion, nation, love, father- and motherhood, though in corrupted form, sadly this madness will go much, much further… Just as foretold by our sages… Only when people collectively and innately understand that there is no happiness in fleeting sensory objects – only then will the Dark Age end. Then the war for [*********] will begin!

    So what one can do in a degenerate time? When it all seems so hopeless? To attach oneself in one’s faith as closely as possible, there is no other option. One’s Dharma is one’s fortress, as well as we uphold our religious obligations and rites, as well will be our fortress’s walls and towers manned and guarded.

    As the great Guru Nanak said:

    “Now, the Dark Age of Kali Yuga has come.

    Plant the Naam, the Name of the Lord.

    It is not the season to plant other seeds.

    Do not wander lost in doubt and delusion.”

  256. @Daniel Chieh
    @silviosilver

    Both nature and engineering are ultimately but manifestations of the purer and more beautiful mind of God. There is divinity in Man for when He created us from clay and spirit in His Image and as such we wrought much that is beautiful, but there is also the order and beauty in the wild. In the end, there is nothing that is engineered that has not been based in principles of nature, viz nature. I am a transhumanist but I also see the divine in all things.

    Sir Francis Bacon, one of my inspirations said as much:


    Human knowledge and human power meet in one; for where the cause is not known the effect cannot be produced. Nature to be commanded must be obeyed; and that which in contemplation is as the cause is in operation as the rule.

     

    It is impossible for me not to see some element of the divine, even if it is beyond the absolute understanding of the human mind. When I was a child, a poisonous snake ambushed me in the yard and a pair of mockingbirds swooped out from their territory to drive it forth and away from me. An explainable happenstance: snakes are in wet places, mockingbirds are hostile hosts in the territory they reside in, and more hostile to snakes than they are to human children - but even so, there feels a symbolism in it that I have always appreciated and felt that inasmuch as nature threatened me, so did nature preserve me.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    You believe in intelligent design?!

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @AltanBakshi

    I believe that evolution is divinely influenced, yes.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  257. @Shortsword
    @Insomniac Resurrected

    https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefing-room/statements-releases/2021/02/26/statement-by-president-biden-on-the-anniversary-of-russias-illegal-invasion-of-ukraine/



    Seven years ago today, Russia violated international law, the norms by which modern countries engage one another, and the sovereignty and territorial integrity of its neighbor Ukraine when it invaded Crimea.

    The United States continues to stand with Ukraine and its allies and partners today, as it has from the beginning of this conflict. On this somber anniversary, we reaffirm a simple truth: Crimea is Ukraine.

     

    Replies: @Insomniac Resurrected

    America should bugger off, they should be expelled from Europe.

    • Agree: AltanBakshi
  258. Well 2/3s of Russians are Corona antivaccine and also 2/3s think that coronavirus is a biological weapon, so maybe your own propaganda worked too well on you?

  259. @AltanBakshi
    @Daniel Chieh

    You believe in intelligent design?!

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    I believe that evolution is divinely influenced, yes.

    • Agree: Kent Nationalist
    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Daniel Chieh

    Well as Aaron and Germans say, to each his own - Jedem das Seine.

    (Still where and how is the divine influence to be found?)

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  260. @Daniel Chieh
    @AltanBakshi

    I believe that evolution is divinely influenced, yes.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    Well as Aaron and Germans say, to each his own – Jedem das Seine.

    [MORE]

    (Still where and how is the divine influence to be found?)

    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AltanBakshi

    The complexity evident even within a one celled amoeba, not to talk about something as advanced as a human being, is way to complex to have evolved by chance no matter how much time you'd allow such an occurrence to happen.

    https://i.pinimg.com/originals/20/fb/3f/20fb3f5665d299a1d429afa78fbe340d.jpg

    Chance or design?

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  261. Is Andrei Nekrasov just anti-“liberal” and pro-Putin now? Maybe he got redpilled when his Browder movie got released. He probably was naive enough to think that he could expose Browder as a con man to Westerners.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @Shortsword

    Being a liberal and being naive go together. Nekrasov has simply evolved, the dichotomy of pro-anti is not how people are.

    The 'give us a bribe' video, or Assange, will not be in the Western media. They won't do it, they don't have to. Screaming hypocrisy and double standards is infantile - people in power have no understanding of what it means. They act in their self-interest and nobody ever gets anywhere by telling powerful they are hypocrites. Of course they are, that's what having power means.

    Telling Nobel Committee they are hypocrites is like telling them 'you have power and we accept you'. Why would anyone do it? Their power is in other peoples' heads, as they themselves say: 'a soft power'. In the hunters world, they are the story-tellers sitting closest to the fire and getting best morsels of the meat. As long as they talk and others attentively listen, it will go on. I understand that it's hard to abandon long-term prestige memes, but that's what is holding up their soft power. They don't have much else, they are cowards with few skills - but the problem is not with them, it is with us, too many can't bring ourselves to let go...

  262. @songbird
    @Dmitry


    I don’t think the LGBT topic is very important, as it was just a marketing gimmick
     
    It was amazingly effective, though. When I first heard about them, I looked them up, and I thought, "sound isn't great, and I know prettier girls." But I was impressed that they got on my radar (all the way from Russia) by someone actually telling me about them. I would say it might be the second-best marketing gimmick, after The Blair Witch Project.

    Modern pop is pretty bad, but putting it aside (and globalism), it is interesting to consider the music of different countries. I feel some just have terrible music for HBD reasons. But I am not knowledgeable enough to draw the full map, and some places might be so influenced by Western tastes, like Hawaii and Japan (even though it is surely unique in a way) that it is difficult to tell, what the true native sound is. Anyway, one eccentric idea might be to create a passport system based on musical tastes - would have prevented 9/11.

    Replies: @Vishnugupta, @Dmitry

    I wonder if someone has done solid research on this.

    I intuitively reached a similar conclusion in the early 2000s when I as a college kid discovered trance music and listned to pretty much nothing else for the next few years. This was the era when PvD,BT,ATB,Tiesto etc were at their peak.

    I first thought others would also love this and the reason they don’t is because it wasn’t commercially available in India(this was the era of Napster,Audiogalaxy and dial up internet)..but that wasn’t the case..at all.

    Then I noticed an overwhelming majority of artists were German,Dutch and Northern Europeans.

    Perhaps there is a gene/s which enables some people to visualize or otherwise experience music without needing lyrics.Such genes may also positively correlate with other useful attributes.

    • Replies: @Jatt Aryaa
    @Vishnugupta

    Wow, it's Brahmins pretend they're white day already?

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

    , @songbird
    @Vishnugupta

    My old theory on the popularity of techno and trance was that it had something to do with the lax social mores regarding dance, omnipresent in the West, but perhaps more profound in Western Europe than America. Even though America is in a state of advanced moral decay, there is still a limited puritanical residue present, mostly around teenagers and alcohol that I think is largely missing from Europe. And I think these styles are a bit more popular in Europe.

    I recall going to a dance club in Germany with other people aged around 14-16 and being really shocked at some of the options on a printed sheet, which one could check off, and send to someone of the opposite sex, to show them that you had interest in them.

    Of course, back then, I thought music was more of a cultural phenomenon. I've since changed my mind based on what I consider to be the uncanny popularity of rap music in sub-Saharan Africa.

    Possibly, another interesting facet is how multiculture seems to affect music. The '80s seems to have been full of unapologetically SWPL music, whereas the '90s had grunge (still very white, but full of angst).

    Replies: @Znzn, @Znzn, @Kent Nationalist

    , @AltanBakshi
    @Vishnugupta

    I had quite many friends who listened such music when we were young, but everyone of them enjoyed ecstacy or speed, such drugs were wildly popular among European youth who enjoyed electronic music in the 90s and early 2000s.

    , @mal
    @Vishnugupta

    It comes down to mushrooms. In the late 80' and early 90's European hippies were experimenting with electronic synthesizers and created psychedelic trance. A fraction of them liked to travel to India and eat mushrooms on the beaches of Goa. A very powerful and melodic style of trance was evolved on those beaches. Here is an Italian example from late 90's.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3pC2M6nuUxI

    It was good to listen to, but not good for dancing as it was too complex. So people then dumbed it down for the dance floor, and trance got more popular in the 2000's. It also gained vocals to be more attractive to mainstream.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @AP

  263. @Shortsword
    https://twitter.com/antiputinismus/status/1309466922149445632

    https://twitter.com/antiputinismus/status/1352274931380326402

    https://twitter.com/antiputinismus/status/1356312116072996864

    Is Andrei Nekrasov just anti-"liberal" and pro-Putin now? Maybe he got redpilled when his Browder movie got released. He probably was naive enough to think that he could expose Browder as a con man to Westerners.

    Replies: @Beckow

    Being a liberal and being naive go together. Nekrasov has simply evolved, the dichotomy of pro-anti is not how people are.

    The ‘give us a bribe‘ video, or Assange, will not be in the Western media. They won’t do it, they don’t have to. Screaming hypocrisy and double standards is infantile – people in power have no understanding of what it means. They act in their self-interest and nobody ever gets anywhere by telling powerful they are hypocrites. Of course they are, that’s what having power means.

    Telling Nobel Committee they are hypocrites is like telling them ‘you have power and we accept you’. Why would anyone do it? Their power is in other peoples’ heads, as they themselves say: ‘a soft power‘. In the hunters world, they are the story-tellers sitting closest to the fire and getting best morsels of the meat. As long as they talk and others attentively listen, it will go on. I understand that it’s hard to abandon long-term prestige memes, but that’s what is holding up their soft power. They don’t have much else, they are cowards with few skills – but the problem is not with them, it is with us, too many can’t bring ourselves to let go…

  264. @Vishnugupta
    @songbird

    I wonder if someone has done solid research on this.

    I intuitively reached a similar conclusion in the early 2000s when I as a college kid discovered trance music and listned to pretty much nothing else for the next few years. This was the era when PvD,BT,ATB,Tiesto etc were at their peak.

    I first thought others would also love this and the reason they don't is because it wasn't commercially available in India(this was the era of Napster,Audiogalaxy and dial up internet)..but that wasn't the case..at all.

    Then I noticed an overwhelming majority of artists were German,Dutch and Northern Europeans.

    Perhaps there is a gene/s which enables some people to visualize or otherwise experience music without needing lyrics.Such genes may also positively correlate with other useful attributes.

    Replies: @Jatt Aryaa, @songbird, @AltanBakshi, @mal

    Wow, it’s Brahmins pretend they’re white day already?

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    @Jatt Aryaa

    Are Haryana Jats the closest living descendents of Aryans?

    Recently, there was a paper on some communities of Northwestern India such as Rors, Jats, Kambojs, Gujjars & Khatris. The primary focus of the paper was the community of cattle herders from Haryana known as Rors.


    https://i.imgur.com/7ECZw0T.jpg


    As can be seen in the selected enlarged portion of the graph, the ‘steppe’ like light blue component, which is highest in some of the Northern European groups closest to the steppe, like the Latvians, Lithuanians, Russians etc., is far higher in Jats and Rors than it is in the Brahmins or any other South Asian group.


    😉😉😂😂

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  265. LOL

    • LOL: Blinky Bill
  266. 🙏

    [MORE]

    https://www.sikhnet.com/news/kaliyug-meets-guru-nanak-dev-ji

    “My lord.” be said, “my life, my soul, everything is at your disposal.” “Swear to me that this is the case, brother,” answered Guru Ji.

    Kaliyug swore it three times and fell at his feet. Guru Nanak was filled with joy. “Go on your way,” he said. “your glory shall exceed that of all the other ages. In your kingdom there will be kirtan and katha of the most exalted kind. In other ages men performed austerities for a hundred thousand years in order to be liberated, but in your age if anyone meditates upon Naam with undivided concentration for only half an hour he will be saved.”

    This is the continued discussion between Guru Gobind Singh and Jai Ram Dadupanthi, wherein Guru Gobind Singh explains the mindset and reason for the origination of the Khalsa Panth.

    ਗੁਰੂ ਕਹ੍ਯੋ ‘ਆਯੋ ਕਲਿ ਕਾਲਾ ॥ ਦੁਸ਼ਟਨ ਕੋ ਭਾ ਤੇਜ ਕਰਾਲਾ ॥26॥
    The Guru said, “Oh Jait Ram, the Dark age is upon us, the wicked have become exceedingly vicious.

    ਸੰਤ ਗਰੀਬ ਧੇਨੁ ਦਿਜ ਦੋਖੀ ॥ ਕਰਹਿਂ ਅਵੱਗ੍ਯਾ ਮੂਰਖ ਰੋਖੀ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਸੋਂ ਦੰਡ ਕਰਨਿ ਬਨਿ ਆਵੈ ॥ ਧਰਨੀ ਛਿਮਾ ਨਹੀਂ ਨਿਬਹਾਵੈ ॥27॥
    They inflict pain towards the saints, the poor, to the cow and Brahmins. These fools in anger are forever in opposition against them. For this reason it is right to punish these people, being forgiving towards such people does not make sense.

    ਤੇਗ਼ ਤੁਪਕ ਤੀਰਨ ਖਰ ਧਰਿ ਕਰਿ ॥ ਕਰਹਿ ਦਿਖਾਵਨ ਤੇਜ ਤਰਾਤਰ ॥ ਤੌ ਕਲਿ ਕਾਲ ਬਿਖੈ ਬਨਿ ਆਵੈ ॥ ਜੀਤਹਿਂ ਹਤਿ ਚਿੰਤਾ ਬਿਸਰਾਵੈ ॥28॥
    With swords, rifles, arrows in our hands, we will show them our tremendous might. In the Dark Age this right way of action. Forgetting the anxiety of death we will overcome them.

    ਸੁਧ ਬੁਧਿ ਸਹਤ ਭਲੇ ਗੁਨ ਸਾਰੇ ॥ ਨਰ ਉਰ ਤੇ ਕਲਿਜੁਗ ਨਿਰਵਾਰੇ ॥ ਧਹਰਿਂ ਸ਼ਸਤ੍ਰ ਸਿਮਰਹਿਂ ਸਤਿਨਾਮੂ ॥ ਧਰਮ ਧਰਹਿਂ ਪਹੁਂਚਹਿਂ ਸੁਰ ਧਾਮੂ ॥29॥
    The Dark Age has not allowed a great amount of people to be imbued with great virtues, and a pure mind. The Khalsa, adorning weapons will remember the True Name, established in Dharma they will ascend to the realm of Gods.

    ਇਸ ਕਾਰਨ ਤੇ ਪੰਥ ਉਪਾਯੋ ॥ ਦੇ ਆਯੁਧ ਰਸ ਬੀਰ ਵਧਾਯੋ ॥
    For this reason the Panth was created, I have given them weapons and infused them with the heroic spirit ! [bir ras] “

  267. @Vishnugupta
    @songbird

    I wonder if someone has done solid research on this.

    I intuitively reached a similar conclusion in the early 2000s when I as a college kid discovered trance music and listned to pretty much nothing else for the next few years. This was the era when PvD,BT,ATB,Tiesto etc were at their peak.

    I first thought others would also love this and the reason they don't is because it wasn't commercially available in India(this was the era of Napster,Audiogalaxy and dial up internet)..but that wasn't the case..at all.

    Then I noticed an overwhelming majority of artists were German,Dutch and Northern Europeans.

    Perhaps there is a gene/s which enables some people to visualize or otherwise experience music without needing lyrics.Such genes may also positively correlate with other useful attributes.

    Replies: @Jatt Aryaa, @songbird, @AltanBakshi, @mal

    My old theory on the popularity of techno and trance was that it had something to do with the lax social mores regarding dance, omnipresent in the West, but perhaps more profound in Western Europe than America. Even though America is in a state of advanced moral decay, there is still a limited puritanical residue present, mostly around teenagers and alcohol that I think is largely missing from Europe. And I think these styles are a bit more popular in Europe.

    I recall going to a dance club in Germany with other people aged around 14-16 and being really shocked at some of the options on a printed sheet, which one could check off, and send to someone of the opposite sex, to show them that you had interest in them.

    Of course, back then, I thought music was more of a cultural phenomenon. I’ve since changed my mind based on what I consider to be the uncanny popularity of rap music in sub-Saharan Africa.

    Possibly, another interesting facet is how multiculture seems to affect music. The ’80s seems to have been full of unapologetically SWPL music, whereas the ’90s had grunge (still very white, but full of angst).

    • Replies: @Znzn
    @songbird

    I am sure any restaurant that is caught serving alcohol to 15 year olds in Sweden will be in a heap of trouble.

    , @Znzn
    @songbird

    I am sure any restaurant that is caught serving alcohol to 15 year olds in Sweden will be in a heap of trouble.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @songbird

    , @Kent Nationalist
    @songbird

    I disagree about techno music. Dancing to that sort of electronic music in Britain always seemed to me much more individualistic and much less about intimacy with women. Usually the men dancing to Drum and Bass type music were much more interested in just amusing themselves or their friends by doing weird things with their feet (you can't even dance properly to that music with another person).

    On the other hand, when I have been to clubs in Italy/Spain the music was almost all slow or Reggaeton type and the men and women were rubbing up against each other and dancing with one another much more. On the other hand, that sort of thing means a lot less with Southern Europeans. When I went to Spain for the first time I thought 'wow, Spanish girls must really like me' because every one I met was touching me constantly.

  268. @Jatt Aryaa
    @Vishnugupta

    Wow, it's Brahmins pretend they're white day already?

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

    Are Haryana Jats the closest living descendents of Aryans?

    Recently, there was a paper on some communities of Northwestern India such as Rors, Jats, Kambojs, Gujjars & Khatris. The primary focus of the paper was the community of cattle herders from Haryana known as Rors.

    As can be seen in the selected enlarged portion of the graph, the ‘steppe’ like light blue component, which is highest in some of the Northern European groups closest to the steppe, like the Latvians, Lithuanians, Russians etc., is far higher in Jats and Rors than it is in the Brahmins or any other South Asian group.

    [MORE]

    😉😉😂😂

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @Blinky Bill

    The name of the region -Haryana- is derived from Aryan. What was the prevalence of Y haplogroup R1a among these people?

  269. @songbird
    @Vishnugupta

    My old theory on the popularity of techno and trance was that it had something to do with the lax social mores regarding dance, omnipresent in the West, but perhaps more profound in Western Europe than America. Even though America is in a state of advanced moral decay, there is still a limited puritanical residue present, mostly around teenagers and alcohol that I think is largely missing from Europe. And I think these styles are a bit more popular in Europe.

    I recall going to a dance club in Germany with other people aged around 14-16 and being really shocked at some of the options on a printed sheet, which one could check off, and send to someone of the opposite sex, to show them that you had interest in them.

    Of course, back then, I thought music was more of a cultural phenomenon. I've since changed my mind based on what I consider to be the uncanny popularity of rap music in sub-Saharan Africa.

    Possibly, another interesting facet is how multiculture seems to affect music. The '80s seems to have been full of unapologetically SWPL music, whereas the '90s had grunge (still very white, but full of angst).

    Replies: @Znzn, @Znzn, @Kent Nationalist

    I am sure any restaurant that is caught serving alcohol to 15 year olds in Sweden will be in a heap of trouble.

  270. @songbird
    @Vishnugupta

    My old theory on the popularity of techno and trance was that it had something to do with the lax social mores regarding dance, omnipresent in the West, but perhaps more profound in Western Europe than America. Even though America is in a state of advanced moral decay, there is still a limited puritanical residue present, mostly around teenagers and alcohol that I think is largely missing from Europe. And I think these styles are a bit more popular in Europe.

    I recall going to a dance club in Germany with other people aged around 14-16 and being really shocked at some of the options on a printed sheet, which one could check off, and send to someone of the opposite sex, to show them that you had interest in them.

    Of course, back then, I thought music was more of a cultural phenomenon. I've since changed my mind based on what I consider to be the uncanny popularity of rap music in sub-Saharan Africa.

    Possibly, another interesting facet is how multiculture seems to affect music. The '80s seems to have been full of unapologetically SWPL music, whereas the '90s had grunge (still very white, but full of angst).

    Replies: @Znzn, @Znzn, @Kent Nationalist

    I am sure any restaurant that is caught serving alcohol to 15 year olds in Sweden will be in a heap of trouble.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Znzn

    Swedes start drinking much later than other Nordics, lol they are only Nordic country where red wine is the most popular alcoholic beverage, their party and drinking culture is very soft and weak, but no wonder, you cant even buy real beer from a Swedish shop when you are 18 years old.

    https://cdn.digg.com/images/741c2a2c27904f6a9b7bc20d49c18ba8_77e002a603674e66a1caebaedc2bbc9a_1_post.png

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @A123

    , @songbird
    @Znzn

    I think Sweden has (had?) a more sexualized culture than the US, so they might pick up some laxity on that end compared to the US, where dances for young people are very chaperoned.

    I should have been more specific about the printed sheet: it had flirtatious phrases begining with the benign (K-pop aside) "Will you have an ice cream with me?" And rising in gradations to more risque activities.

    I also wonder how much it had to do with cities. Young white Americans had basically been kicked out of their own cities. College kids aside. So, being more suburban, it was harder for them to get to clubs that wouldn't have faced severe zoning pressures and community backlash.

  271. @Vishnugupta
    @songbird

    I wonder if someone has done solid research on this.

    I intuitively reached a similar conclusion in the early 2000s when I as a college kid discovered trance music and listned to pretty much nothing else for the next few years. This was the era when PvD,BT,ATB,Tiesto etc were at their peak.

    I first thought others would also love this and the reason they don't is because it wasn't commercially available in India(this was the era of Napster,Audiogalaxy and dial up internet)..but that wasn't the case..at all.

    Then I noticed an overwhelming majority of artists were German,Dutch and Northern Europeans.

    Perhaps there is a gene/s which enables some people to visualize or otherwise experience music without needing lyrics.Such genes may also positively correlate with other useful attributes.

    Replies: @Jatt Aryaa, @songbird, @AltanBakshi, @mal

    I had quite many friends who listened such music when we were young, but everyone of them enjoyed ecstacy or speed, such drugs were wildly popular among European youth who enjoyed electronic music in the 90s and early 2000s.

  272. @Blinky Bill
    @Jatt Aryaa

    Are Haryana Jats the closest living descendents of Aryans?

    Recently, there was a paper on some communities of Northwestern India such as Rors, Jats, Kambojs, Gujjars & Khatris. The primary focus of the paper was the community of cattle herders from Haryana known as Rors.


    https://i.imgur.com/7ECZw0T.jpg


    As can be seen in the selected enlarged portion of the graph, the ‘steppe’ like light blue component, which is highest in some of the Northern European groups closest to the steppe, like the Latvians, Lithuanians, Russians etc., is far higher in Jats and Rors than it is in the Brahmins or any other South Asian group.


    😉😉😂😂

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    The name of the region -Haryana- is derived from Aryan. What was the prevalence of Y haplogroup R1a among these people?

  273. @Znzn
    @songbird

    I am sure any restaurant that is caught serving alcohol to 15 year olds in Sweden will be in a heap of trouble.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @songbird

    Swedes start drinking much later than other Nordics, lol they are only Nordic country where red wine is the most popular alcoholic beverage, their party and drinking culture is very soft and weak, but no wonder, you cant even buy real beer from a Swedish shop when you are 18 years old.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @AltanBakshi

    What the hell even Danes? And I though that those guys are excellent and heavy drinkers, at least they were not long time ago. Oh well they still drink much more than Swedes, drinking culture there is very good in my opinion. I hate how beer and wine are destroying the drinking culture everywhere. Maybe beer with food, wine for women, but men should have fun with hard liquor.

    Bring back the Vodka Belt!

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    , @A123
    @AltanBakshi

    The growth of micro brewing has made beer much more palatable than it was in the 90's.

    My favorite craft beer, Victory Storm King, is "on hiatus", but the brewer promises it will eventually return. North Coast Old Rasputin is still around and almost as good. IMHO these should be served at cellar temperature or warmer. Rich stouts/porters lose flavour and mouth feel when served too cold.

    Cigar City Maduro Brown is a much less hoppy alternative. Their FLORIDA MAN Double IPA is also a strong contender if you can get past the name.

    PEACE 😇
     

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-dCtHge1ZQTQ/TkSgMpKQgGI/AAAAAAAAAZA/BBOyL0usawg/s640/old-rasputin.jpg
     

    https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bL-jINQYA8k/T7ko3o63nXI/AAAAAAAAAcI/tjFuwZv4JXE/s1600/victorystormkingimperialstout.jpg
     

    https://thefullpint.com/wp-content/uploads/CCB-Maduro.jpg
     

    https://cdn3-www.mandatory.com/assets/uploads/gallery/fourth-of-july-explosively-hoppy-beers/cigar-city-florida-man.jpg

    Replies: @A123

  274. @AltanBakshi
    @Znzn

    Swedes start drinking much later than other Nordics, lol they are only Nordic country where red wine is the most popular alcoholic beverage, their party and drinking culture is very soft and weak, but no wonder, you cant even buy real beer from a Swedish shop when you are 18 years old.

    https://cdn.digg.com/images/741c2a2c27904f6a9b7bc20d49c18ba8_77e002a603674e66a1caebaedc2bbc9a_1_post.png

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @A123

    What the hell even Danes? And I though that those guys are excellent and heavy drinkers, at least they were not long time ago. Oh well they still drink much more than Swedes, drinking culture there is very good in my opinion. I hate how beer and wine are destroying the drinking culture everywhere. Maybe beer with food, wine for women, but men should have fun with hard liquor.

    Bring back the Vodka Belt!

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @AltanBakshi


    men should have fun with hard liquor.
     
    https://mtdata.ru/u19/photo7284/20148673293-0/original.jpg

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @AltanBakshi

  275. @AltanBakshi
    @AltanBakshi

    What the hell even Danes? And I though that those guys are excellent and heavy drinkers, at least they were not long time ago. Oh well they still drink much more than Swedes, drinking culture there is very good in my opinion. I hate how beer and wine are destroying the drinking culture everywhere. Maybe beer with food, wine for women, but men should have fun with hard liquor.

    Bring back the Vodka Belt!

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    men should have fun with hard liquor.

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    @Bashibuzuk


    https://twitter.com/INechepurenko/status/1259811569657090050?s=20

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    , @AltanBakshi
    @Bashibuzuk

    Oh rectified spirits are too much for me, though its "funny" how they burn through your membranes. Really you dont have even to drink them, just put in some in your mouth and they will burn into your bloodstream. But really that stuff breaks kidneys, no joke.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/22/Alcohol_belts_of_Europe.svg/1175px-Alcohol_belts_of_Europe.png

    Here are the traditional Alcohol Belts of Europe, but sadly globalisation is everywhere destroying local native traditions, now I understand how old indigenous people must have felt when they saw their youth losing their culture....

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  276. @Bashibuzuk
    @AltanBakshi


    men should have fun with hard liquor.
     
    https://mtdata.ru/u19/photo7284/20148673293-0/original.jpg

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @AltanBakshi

    [MORE]

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @Blinky Bill

    You needed to dilute with a powerful antidote before consuming it.



    https://cs7.pikabu.ru/post_img/2018/04/26/0/1524691851189794938.jpg

  277. @Znzn
    @songbird

    I am sure any restaurant that is caught serving alcohol to 15 year olds in Sweden will be in a heap of trouble.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @songbird

    I think Sweden has (had?) a more sexualized culture than the US, so they might pick up some laxity on that end compared to the US, where dances for young people are very chaperoned.

    I should have been more specific about the printed sheet: it had flirtatious phrases begining with the benign (K-pop aside) “Will you have an ice cream with me?” And rising in gradations to more risque activities.

    I also wonder how much it had to do with cities. Young white Americans had basically been kicked out of their own cities. College kids aside. So, being more suburban, it was harder for them to get to clubs that wouldn’t have faced severe zoning pressures and community backlash.

  278. @AltanBakshi
    @Znzn

    Swedes start drinking much later than other Nordics, lol they are only Nordic country where red wine is the most popular alcoholic beverage, their party and drinking culture is very soft and weak, but no wonder, you cant even buy real beer from a Swedish shop when you are 18 years old.

    https://cdn.digg.com/images/741c2a2c27904f6a9b7bc20d49c18ba8_77e002a603674e66a1caebaedc2bbc9a_1_post.png

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @A123

    The growth of micro brewing has made beer much more palatable than it was in the 90’s.

    My favorite craft beer, Victory Storm King, is “on hiatus”, but the brewer promises it will eventually return. North Coast Old Rasputin is still around and almost as good. IMHO these should be served at cellar temperature or warmer. Rich stouts/porters lose flavour and mouth feel when served too cold.

    Cigar City Maduro Brown is a much less hoppy alternative. Their FLORIDA MAN Double IPA is also a strong contender if you can get past the name.

    PEACE 😇
     
     

    [MORE]

     
     

    • Thanks: AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @A123
    @A123

    Another consequence of the micro brew revolution is the marketing. They do not have TV ad budgets. They have to create shelf appeal, which is often achieved with very funny labels.

    PEACE 😇
     

    http://beerstreetjournal.com/wp-content/uploads/Engine-15-Nut-Sack-Double-Brown-Ale--960x794.jpg

  279. @Bashibuzuk
    @AltanBakshi


    men should have fun with hard liquor.
     
    https://mtdata.ru/u19/photo7284/20148673293-0/original.jpg

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @AltanBakshi

    Oh rectified spirits are too much for me, though its “funny” how they burn through your membranes. Really you dont have even to drink them, just put in some in your mouth and they will burn into your bloodstream. But really that stuff breaks kidneys, no joke.

    Here are the traditional Alcohol Belts of Europe, but sadly globalisation is everywhere destroying local native traditions, now I understand how old indigenous people must have felt when they saw their youth losing their culture….

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @AltanBakshi


    Really you dont have even to drink them, just put in some in your mouth and they will burn into your bloodstream.
     
    Yeah, I still remember once having perhaps a 100 ml of undiluted Spirt Royal (while camping by the Ladoga lake) and finding that despite my mental faculties being completely unaffected, I was unable to stand because my feet were basically paralyzed. Not a pleasant sensation. It was the first and the last time I drank this poison.

    now I understand how old indigenous people must have felt when they saw their youth losing their culture
     
    Yep, Russia losing Spirt Royal drinking and Adidas track suits wearing traditions is a shame.

    https://craftbeer78.ru/images_beers/335/500-craftbeer78.ru-populism-jaws.jpg

    I had this beer at the Skolkovo Pub a couple of years ago, it was great. When the cute tattooed and pierced hipster barmade asked me whether I liked it, I answered: " They should make a bitter and call it Fascism, that would be my preferred kraft beer". I still remember her somewhat disturbed look...

    😁

  280. @Blinky Bill
    @Bashibuzuk


    https://twitter.com/INechepurenko/status/1259811569657090050?s=20

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    You needed to dilute with a powerful antidote before consuming it.

    [MORE]

    • Agree: Blinky Bill
  281. @A123
    @AltanBakshi

    The growth of micro brewing has made beer much more palatable than it was in the 90's.

    My favorite craft beer, Victory Storm King, is "on hiatus", but the brewer promises it will eventually return. North Coast Old Rasputin is still around and almost as good. IMHO these should be served at cellar temperature or warmer. Rich stouts/porters lose flavour and mouth feel when served too cold.

    Cigar City Maduro Brown is a much less hoppy alternative. Their FLORIDA MAN Double IPA is also a strong contender if you can get past the name.

    PEACE 😇
     

    http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-dCtHge1ZQTQ/TkSgMpKQgGI/AAAAAAAAAZA/BBOyL0usawg/s640/old-rasputin.jpg
     

    https://4.bp.blogspot.com/-bL-jINQYA8k/T7ko3o63nXI/AAAAAAAAAcI/tjFuwZv4JXE/s1600/victorystormkingimperialstout.jpg
     

    https://thefullpint.com/wp-content/uploads/CCB-Maduro.jpg
     

    https://cdn3-www.mandatory.com/assets/uploads/gallery/fourth-of-july-explosively-hoppy-beers/cigar-city-florida-man.jpg

    Replies: @A123

    Another consequence of the micro brew revolution is the marketing. They do not have TV ad budgets. They have to create shelf appeal, which is often achieved with very funny labels.

    PEACE 😇
     

  282. @AltanBakshi
    @Bashibuzuk

    Oh rectified spirits are too much for me, though its "funny" how they burn through your membranes. Really you dont have even to drink them, just put in some in your mouth and they will burn into your bloodstream. But really that stuff breaks kidneys, no joke.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/22/Alcohol_belts_of_Europe.svg/1175px-Alcohol_belts_of_Europe.png

    Here are the traditional Alcohol Belts of Europe, but sadly globalisation is everywhere destroying local native traditions, now I understand how old indigenous people must have felt when they saw their youth losing their culture....

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    Really you dont have even to drink them, just put in some in your mouth and they will burn into your bloodstream.

    Yeah, I still remember once having perhaps a 100 ml of undiluted Spirt Royal (while camping by the Ladoga lake) and finding that despite my mental faculties being completely unaffected, I was unable to stand because my feet were basically paralyzed. Not a pleasant sensation. It was the first and the last time I drank this poison.

    now I understand how old indigenous people must have felt when they saw their youth losing their culture

    Yep, Russia losing Spirt Royal drinking and Adidas track suits wearing traditions is a shame.

    I had this beer at the Skolkovo Pub a couple of years ago, it was great. When the cute tattooed and pierced hipster barmade asked me whether I liked it, I answered: ” They should make a bitter and call it Fascism, that would be my preferred kraft beer”. I still remember her somewhat disturbed look…

    😁

  283. @blatnoi
    @silviosilver


    Great example: wtf is in Siberia worth trying to preserve? Pave the fucking thing over – even if for no other reason than to prove you can. Pave it now! A shopping mall on every square mile of Siberian turf would be a huge upgrade to the ghastly tundra that land is cursed with.
     
    Sounds great in theory, but the problem is that as you knowledge, you are incorrect here:

    It’s technically neutral, but I like to personalize it and say nature tries to thwart human existence at every turn, so fuck nature, nature is the enemy.
     
    Since in reality nature is neutral and humans are part of nature, our brains are wired to become happy from natural cues such as increasing sunlight, birdsong, breathing fresh air, etc... You can't divorce your brain from your body, which receives environmental cues, and tells you to be under sunlight to be happy. This is why I enjoy hiking in the mountains or desert canyons. Enjoying being in nature is something that is required for human happiness until we transfer our consciences into robotic bodies (spoiler: don't worry about this). You won't be able to sustain your hatred for nature if you consider it logically, but you don't want to go the full AaronB either.

    This is also why living on Mars will never happen on scale unless the planet is previously terraformed (spoiler: which won't happen anytime soon since Elon Musk is a bit of a fantasist/(con-man?)) Can you imagine living in a small room for the rest of your life, with no birds flying outside the window, not being able to go outside without a space-suit, slowly deteriorating bone density due to the lower gravity?

    Replies: @songbird, @reiner Tor, @silviosilver

    Can you imagine living in a small room for the rest of your life, with no birds flying outside the window, not being able to go outside without a space-suit

    Supposing that they can solve basic problems, get a basic industry going, or get durable equipment there, then I think that they could create some really fantastic underground spaces on Mars. Even ones populated with small birds, or other small wildlife.

    Some of the Mars enthusiasts are really nutso though. I heard one talking the other day about walking a dog on Mars and using it in spacesuit to smell out mineral resources! I wonder if some of these crazy ideas about Mars are due to our low fertility culture. I’ve been thinking that a truly natalist culture would have built a space station in LEO big enough to simulate Mars gravity (with spin) to figure out if it was enough to have babies. And for them to mature and be fertile.

    • Replies: @mal
    @songbird

    If you dig something like 50 km down on Mars, you can simulate Earth atmospheric pressure. I don't know about birds, but cave bats might be happy. It is a lot of work though.

    And yes, we should have started doing simulated gravity experiments decades ago. It doesn't even have to be fancy - two cabins and a rope will do. Even an ISS sized setup can't be more than $100 billion. US government budget defict (on a good year) is around a $trillion. We could have built 10 orbital stations per year simply by redirecting some of that government cheese.

    Replies: @songbird

  284. @songbird
    @Vishnugupta

    My old theory on the popularity of techno and trance was that it had something to do with the lax social mores regarding dance, omnipresent in the West, but perhaps more profound in Western Europe than America. Even though America is in a state of advanced moral decay, there is still a limited puritanical residue present, mostly around teenagers and alcohol that I think is largely missing from Europe. And I think these styles are a bit more popular in Europe.

    I recall going to a dance club in Germany with other people aged around 14-16 and being really shocked at some of the options on a printed sheet, which one could check off, and send to someone of the opposite sex, to show them that you had interest in them.

    Of course, back then, I thought music was more of a cultural phenomenon. I've since changed my mind based on what I consider to be the uncanny popularity of rap music in sub-Saharan Africa.

    Possibly, another interesting facet is how multiculture seems to affect music. The '80s seems to have been full of unapologetically SWPL music, whereas the '90s had grunge (still very white, but full of angst).

    Replies: @Znzn, @Znzn, @Kent Nationalist

    I disagree about techno music. Dancing to that sort of electronic music in Britain always seemed to me much more individualistic and much less about intimacy with women. Usually the men dancing to Drum and Bass type music were much more interested in just amusing themselves or their friends by doing weird things with their feet (you can’t even dance properly to that music with another person).

    On the other hand, when I have been to clubs in Italy/Spain the music was almost all slow or Reggaeton type and the men and women were rubbing up against each other and dancing with one another much more. On the other hand, that sort of thing means a lot less with Southern Europeans. When I went to Spain for the first time I thought ‘wow, Spanish girls must really like me’ because every one I met was touching me constantly.

  285. mal says:
    @Vishnugupta
    @songbird

    I wonder if someone has done solid research on this.

    I intuitively reached a similar conclusion in the early 2000s when I as a college kid discovered trance music and listned to pretty much nothing else for the next few years. This was the era when PvD,BT,ATB,Tiesto etc were at their peak.

    I first thought others would also love this and the reason they don't is because it wasn't commercially available in India(this was the era of Napster,Audiogalaxy and dial up internet)..but that wasn't the case..at all.

    Then I noticed an overwhelming majority of artists were German,Dutch and Northern Europeans.

    Perhaps there is a gene/s which enables some people to visualize or otherwise experience music without needing lyrics.Such genes may also positively correlate with other useful attributes.

    Replies: @Jatt Aryaa, @songbird, @AltanBakshi, @mal

    It comes down to mushrooms. In the late 80′ and early 90’s European hippies were experimenting with electronic synthesizers and created psychedelic trance. A fraction of them liked to travel to India and eat mushrooms on the beaches of Goa. A very powerful and melodic style of trance was evolved on those beaches. Here is an Italian example from late 90’s.

    It was good to listen to, but not good for dancing as it was too complex. So people then dumbed it down for the dance floor, and trance got more popular in the 2000’s. It also gained vocals to be more attractive to mainstream.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @mal

    Yes, Goa Trance was strong back then. I still remember the Dragonfly Records and Goa Head compilations. But raves started earlier.

    Already in the early 90ies, rave parties had their musical style evolved from the Detroit house music. In Europe it rapidly gained ground in Netherlands, UK and Germany where it became a social phenomenon by the late 90ies with May Day and the Love Parade.

    Bonzai and Platipus records were important for early Techno music, there were others that I don't remember which I really liked, Italian ones if I am not mistaken.

    In Russia too Techno and Trance was quite popular in the mid - 90ies. There was an excellent electronic music program on one of the Moscow FM radios that I used to listen to.



    https://youtu.be/kZynI2APMRg

    https://youtu.be/G-NhwX1pvT4

    I was going to the raves for the shamanic feeling, it brought something very strong in me. If one wants to immerse oneself into nostalgic memories of that time, German Lola Rennt movie is just perfect.

    https://youtu.be/PvTEZgrH5tw

    Replies: @mal, @Vishnugupta, @AP

    , @AP
    @mal


    So people then dumbed it down for the dance floor, and trance got more popular in the 2000’s.
     
    I think the best trance was from the mid 1990s.

    This masterpiece was from 1993, I believe:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XDL569Ae5DE

    I never needed ecstasy to enjoy myself all night in those times.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  286. mal says:
    @songbird
    @blatnoi


    Can you imagine living in a small room for the rest of your life, with no birds flying outside the window, not being able to go outside without a space-suit
     
    Supposing that they can solve basic problems, get a basic industry going, or get durable equipment there, then I think that they could create some really fantastic underground spaces on Mars. Even ones populated with small birds, or other small wildlife.

    Some of the Mars enthusiasts are really nutso though. I heard one talking the other day about walking a dog on Mars and using it in spacesuit to smell out mineral resources! I wonder if some of these crazy ideas about Mars are due to our low fertility culture. I've been thinking that a truly natalist culture would have built a space station in LEO big enough to simulate Mars gravity (with spin) to figure out if it was enough to have babies. And for them to mature and be fertile.

    Replies: @mal

    If you dig something like 50 km down on Mars, you can simulate Earth atmospheric pressure. I don’t know about birds, but cave bats might be happy. It is a lot of work though.

    And yes, we should have started doing simulated gravity experiments decades ago. It doesn’t even have to be fancy – two cabins and a rope will do. Even an ISS sized setup can’t be more than $100 billion. US government budget defict (on a good year) is around a $trillion. We could have built 10 orbital stations per year simply by redirecting some of that government cheese.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @mal

    Never thought of making artificial spelunking caves on Mars. Seems like a good idea - though I guess it would involve a lot of work. What I picture earlier is small-bore tunnels that loop, for running. rollerblades, or bicycles. You could even fill them with water for canoes, skiing or ice-skating (if the last two would work). Really endless recreational possibilities, once you solve the basics.

    One of the difficult things would seem to be how to clean an underground park that has living things in it. Get rid of the dead skin, neutralize the bird and (red) squirrel waste.

    Replies: @mal

  287. @mal
    @Vishnugupta

    It comes down to mushrooms. In the late 80' and early 90's European hippies were experimenting with electronic synthesizers and created psychedelic trance. A fraction of them liked to travel to India and eat mushrooms on the beaches of Goa. A very powerful and melodic style of trance was evolved on those beaches. Here is an Italian example from late 90's.

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3pC2M6nuUxI

    It was good to listen to, but not good for dancing as it was too complex. So people then dumbed it down for the dance floor, and trance got more popular in the 2000's. It also gained vocals to be more attractive to mainstream.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @AP

    Yes, Goa Trance was strong back then. I still remember the Dragonfly Records and Goa Head compilations. But raves started earlier.

    Already in the early 90ies, rave parties had their musical style evolved from the Detroit house music. In Europe it rapidly gained ground in Netherlands, UK and Germany where it became a social phenomenon by the late 90ies with May Day and the Love Parade.

    Bonzai and Platipus records were important for early Techno music, there were others that I don’t remember which I really liked, Italian ones if I am not mistaken.

    In Russia too Techno and Trance was quite popular in the mid – 90ies. There was an excellent electronic music program on one of the Moscow FM radios that I used to listen to.

    [MORE]

    I was going to the raves for the shamanic feeling, it brought something very strong in me. If one wants to immerse oneself into nostalgic memories of that time, German Lola Rennt movie is just perfect.

    • Thanks: mal, AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @mal
    @Bashibuzuk

    Ah yes, good old Radiotrance!

    Vostok 5 is favorite by them.
    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=X_AZvnprygo

    Летайте Ракетами Восток!

    , @Vishnugupta
    @Bashibuzuk

    A real pity this type of music is no longer produced..

    https://youtu.be/44E8mz6I6o0

    https://youtu.be/g4pOl5DEU0c

    https://youtu.be/5f2SJZTHCwU

    https://youtu.be/-MU-PGePJsQ

    There used to be this website 'Tranceaddict' on which you could download live sets by these greats ..

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @silviosilver

    , @AP
    @Bashibuzuk


    Already in the early 90ies, rave parties had their musical style evolved from the Detroit house music
     
    Those were interesting times. We would call a hotline to find the place in advance (these rave parties weren’t legal), go to an abandoned factory deep in Detroit. Some local gang was paid off and kept an eye on our cars and kept everything safe. I was at a party with perhaps 800 or so people in Detroit, and later in Frankfurt I would be at a rave with the same DJ, and several thousand people.

    But I never made it to Goa.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  288. @mal
    @songbird

    If you dig something like 50 km down on Mars, you can simulate Earth atmospheric pressure. I don't know about birds, but cave bats might be happy. It is a lot of work though.

    And yes, we should have started doing simulated gravity experiments decades ago. It doesn't even have to be fancy - two cabins and a rope will do. Even an ISS sized setup can't be more than $100 billion. US government budget defict (on a good year) is around a $trillion. We could have built 10 orbital stations per year simply by redirecting some of that government cheese.

    Replies: @songbird

    Never thought of making artificial spelunking caves on Mars. Seems like a good idea – though I guess it would involve a lot of work. What I picture earlier is small-bore tunnels that loop, for running. rollerblades, or bicycles. You could even fill them with water for canoes, skiing or ice-skating (if the last two would work). Really endless recreational possibilities, once you solve the basics.

    One of the difficult things would seem to be how to clean an underground park that has living things in it. Get rid of the dead skin, neutralize the bird and (red) squirrel waste.

    • Agree: mal
    • Replies: @mal
    @songbird

    That squirrel waste will be worth more than gold in space. Lots of gold out there, but proper biomaterials, including biowaste, will be hard to get.

  289. Another thing that made the youth culture of Europe different from America is that it had good trains and hostels. In a way, one could think of it like a pre-internet network for partying, competing with America’s college network, which did not have connections as dense. Perhaps, blacks helped disrupt the hostel culture in America, keeping the general youth culture a bit more puritanical.

  290. @Bashibuzuk
    @mal

    Yes, Goa Trance was strong back then. I still remember the Dragonfly Records and Goa Head compilations. But raves started earlier.

    Already in the early 90ies, rave parties had their musical style evolved from the Detroit house music. In Europe it rapidly gained ground in Netherlands, UK and Germany where it became a social phenomenon by the late 90ies with May Day and the Love Parade.

    Bonzai and Platipus records were important for early Techno music, there were others that I don't remember which I really liked, Italian ones if I am not mistaken.

    In Russia too Techno and Trance was quite popular in the mid - 90ies. There was an excellent electronic music program on one of the Moscow FM radios that I used to listen to.



    https://youtu.be/kZynI2APMRg

    https://youtu.be/G-NhwX1pvT4

    I was going to the raves for the shamanic feeling, it brought something very strong in me. If one wants to immerse oneself into nostalgic memories of that time, German Lola Rennt movie is just perfect.

    https://youtu.be/PvTEZgrH5tw

    Replies: @mal, @Vishnugupta, @AP

    Ah yes, good old Radiotrance!

    Vostok 5 is favorite by them.

    Летайте Ракетами Восток!

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
  291. @AaronB
    @blatnoi

    It just so happens, that hunter gatherers had significantly more leisure than was available in agricultural societies, and mankind suffered much more from disease epidemics in crowded cities. And complex civilization introduced harsh hierarchies and slavery.

    We went over this ground before on other threads.

    However, I understand many people on this blog are what I described in my original comment as "hard core materialists", who necessarily view human comfort, or some kind of physical advantage, as the highest ideal.

    Even if everything you say about the discomforts and dangers of nature are real, I am saying prolonged time spend in nature offers an intensely pleasurable experience of a kind not found in cities, which for those who have it, seems well worth the sacrifice in comfort, and which can transform one's sense of place in the universe and put strictly human concerns - like status, money, competition, even survival - in a different perspective.

    After all, many people sacrifice comfort and advantage to climb mountains or race across deserts - and report the experience is worth more than any comfort sacrificed.

    So again, if comfort is your main priority, or safety, or long term survival, or extending human power over the physical world - stay in modern civilization. (Debatable, there is a huge downside in comfort and safety in crowded cities, but I will concede your point).

    But if your main concern is an "experience" - an ecstatic experience of life that cannot even be put into words, that religions sometimes hint at but get badly wrong when they try and institutionalize it, a thrilling sense of mystery, or in less intense form and less dramatic terms simply an experience of pleasure that can't be had in crowded human cities in a man made environment by coming into contact with something elemental - then prolonged contact with magnificent natural settings is the way to go.

    This is certainly not for everyone. Many people might even fear it.

    And even though I come down on the side of a life in nature, I see like cities and see beauty and value in them, and enjoy visiting them for a few days. In some ways, a huge city can be as mysterious as the wilderness, with winding alleys leading to the discovery of strange cafes and bars and art galleries and hidden shrines and temples, and magnificent architecture. In other words not planned, organized, rational cities, but organic cities that retain a whiff of nature.

    So cities can have a Romance of its own, if done right (most modern cities are not).

    I am suggesting that man needs a sense of the mysterious and the numinous, and needs to come into contact with the non human world and see his essential connection with it. That this is not a question of comfort or safety or any kind of purely physical advantage - and even that deprioritizing these things can be beneficial for a while. That man is a part of nature and if he builds cities, to build them in organic, unplanned ways at least in part, that represent the organic pattern of nature and not sterile, cold rationality.

    But to each hisown.

    Replies: @Mikel, @blatnoi

    As you know, the West is so vast that you may have visited an area several times but you can still discover new wonders on the next trip by just changing the route a little bit.

    This time I’d say that the highlights of my weekend trip have been the Trail of the Ancients, comparable to Monument Valley, and the Sangre de Cristo mountain foothills north of Santa Fe. I was expecting the typical landscape of these southern, high-altitude areas: thick forests with a high timberline hiding the top ridge. What I found instead was an amazing combination of bare red rock desert cliffs and a snowed mountain chain in the background, where the highest alpine peaks were perfectly visible.

    As the New York painter (ie someone who loved human-made beauty) Georgia O’Keefe said before moving to this part of NM, “it’s so beautiful there, it’s ridiculous”.

    On the other hand, most everyone you see in this area seems to be Mexican or Native American and it shows in the houses and trailers where they live. Generally run-down and untidy. It reminded me of the popular barrios in Chile. Some houses did retain the very nice adobe architecture of the colonial times, though.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    @Mikel

    Thanks for that! I hope my next trip will be June, when it's too cold to go too far north. So you've given me a good idea.

    I know what you mean about Indian areas. I drove 100 miles through the T'ono Odham Indian reservation in southern Arizona, and there were only 2 tiny run down fly infested towns the entire stretch. Beautiful desolate scenery though.

    I'm now in Organ Pipe Cactus NM in southern Arizona on the Mexican border. Few people make it here. The ranger said I should drive 21 miles down this dirt road into the backcountry and there will be a place I can park. From there I have to walk in at least half a mile and I can camp anywhere. There are no trails.

    I was the only one in the backcountry for the night, and it was a gorgeous piece of Sonoran Desert scenery, with huge canyon walls, utterly wild and desolate. Huge winds picked up during the night echoing through the high canyon walls and crashing into my tent. It was a noisy racket.

    My tent held, but the wind blew in a fine red sand, and I had to wrap my head in my jacket to avoid it getting into my eyes and nose. In the morning there was red sand in my tent. But it was easy to shake out.

    I thanked the mountain for not destroying me, and enjoyed the morning sunshine and calm. I swear I am becoming more of an animist every day out here :)

    It's amazing that in this day and age when everyone is obsessed with safety and the nanny state is omnipresent, they casually let you walk into a harsh, pitiless wilderness with no trails just like that. All the ranger said was - do I know I have to carry in all my water? That there are no trails? That you're completely on your own? That I'm 21 miles from base? Yes? Go enjoy yourself.

    Oh, she did say this is an illegal smuggling area and if I encounter any Mexicans getting smuggling, don't engage them or give them any water. She said they tend to avoid contact with people anyways. So that was interesting too.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack, @silviosilver

  292. @songbird
    @mal

    Never thought of making artificial spelunking caves on Mars. Seems like a good idea - though I guess it would involve a lot of work. What I picture earlier is small-bore tunnels that loop, for running. rollerblades, or bicycles. You could even fill them with water for canoes, skiing or ice-skating (if the last two would work). Really endless recreational possibilities, once you solve the basics.

    One of the difficult things would seem to be how to clean an underground park that has living things in it. Get rid of the dead skin, neutralize the bird and (red) squirrel waste.

    Replies: @mal

    That squirrel waste will be worth more than gold in space. Lots of gold out there, but proper biomaterials, including biowaste, will be hard to get.

  293. @dfordoom
    @Bashibuzuk


    I have no idea if you’re Jewish or not
     
    I'm not.

    Therefore, I think that your take on nature is perhaps due to you being an urbanite who is used to artificial environments.
     
    I'm not an urbanite either. I was once. Now I'm a semi-ruralite. I'm just not a mountains-and-forests person. I have no objection to the existence of mountains and forests. They just don't appeal to me aesthetically.

    I'm not sure that there's any real complete explanation for aesthetic tastes. Obviously cultural conditioning plays some role. But that doesn't explain why I dislike most Modernist buildings but there are some that I love.

    I don't think there's any real complete explanation for any aesthetic tastes. Some people prefer Mozart to Beethoven. Some men find certain women attractive while others have totally different tastes. Some people prefer mountains to forests. A lot of people find old buildings attractive but some like the gothic style and some prefer the classical style.

    I'm sure there are complicated theories to explain aesthetic tastes. I remember reading Roger Scruton's book on beauty but I didn't think it was very illuminating.

    Replies: @Mikel

    I agree that it’s totally pointless to try to convince other people of one’s aesthetic preferences. When you find someone who happens to share yours, it’s great because you have a lot to talk about and experiences to share but they’re obviously of no interest to the rest. As far as I’m concerned, the more people stay in cities and the less they crowd the natural spaces, the better.

    But you haven’t answered an interesting question upthread. Do you prefer to contemplate a man-made representation of a beautiful young woman or the actual woman herself? Arguably, the most beautiful thing nature has made for us humans to enjoy seeing is the female body so this looks like a valuable comparison in this discussion. Can humans make something of comparable beauty at all?

    To be fair, the question is a bit tricky because nature also gave us males the desire to posses that beautiful body so a fair assessment may be difficult. How much is appreciation of beauty and how much is desire? But, talking about lesbianism, I think that women, regardless of sexual orientation, are also perfectly capable of appreciating the beauty of their own bodies. Miley Cirus recently put it bluntly: “breasts are nicer than balls”, an assessment that both my wife and I agreed with when we heard it.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Mikel


    But you haven’t answered an interesting question upthread. Do you prefer to contemplate a man-made representation of a beautiful young woman or the actual woman herself?
     
    It's a simple answer but I'm not going to give a simple answer.

    Firstly, I'm not hostile to the human world. People often disappoint me but on the whole I like people and I'm fascinated by them. I like women and I'm fascinated by them. And I can certainly appreciate female beauty, both sexually and aesthetically.

    I'd rather contemplate a picture of a beautiful young woman than a picture of a mountain. I'd rather contemplate a flesh-and-blood beautiful young woman than a real mountain. I'd rather contemplate a picture of a beautiful young woman than a real mountain.

    I'd rather contemplate a picture of a mountain than a real mountain (in fact I'd prefer to contemplate neither but if I had to make the choice I'd pick the picture of the mountain).

    As for a flesh-and-blood beautiful young woman versus a picture of a beautiful young woman, I'd obviously prefer to have a sexual and/or emotional and/or affectionately friendly relationship with a flesh-and-blood beautiful young woman rather than with a picture because you can't have a relationship with a picture. But you can get a great deal of pleasure from contemplating a picture of a beautiful young woman. And human beauty is fleeting while art is forever. So the appreciation of a beautiful young woman is not the same as the appreciation of a man-made representation of a beautiful young woman. I can appreciate both, in different ways.

    Replies: @Mikel

  294. @Bashibuzuk
    @dfordoom


    It seems that people who appreciate civilisation are more and more a minority.
     
    What in your opinion causes this?

    Replies: @silviosilver, @dfordoom, @dfordoom

    It seems that people who appreciate civilisation are more and more a minority.

    What in your opinion causes this?

    One of the big things has been environmentalism which has taught people that civilisation is wicked because it’s supposedly destroying the planet. Environmentalism is a weird quasi-religious doomsday cult but most people (even on the Right) have swallowed it hook, line and sinker. Environmentalism has much in common with the Romantic Movement – a silly sentimental worship of nature, an irrational hostility to industrialisation (factories bad, forests good) a simplistic rejection of materialism, phoney pop spiritualism and the idea of technological progress as sinful.

    What’s really worrying is that so many people on the Right (or at least on the far right) have become anti-civilisational. Partly that’s because they hate cities because they think cities are full of liberals. Partly it’s because far right Christians think cities are full of atheists. Partly it’s the growing irrationalism of the far right – the story of western civilisation from the beginning of the sixteenth century has been the story of the triumph of reason over superstition but the far right prefers superstition (as evidenced by their obsession with conspiracy theories).

    Partly it’s the American far right’s idealisation of 18th and 19th century (or even 17th century) rural life – sturdy patriots with guns, women who did what they were told, close-knit communities in which everyone believed in God and guns and hated commies, an idealised nostalgia for an era when non-whites knew their place and grovelled to the White Man, a nostalgia for an age in which kids did what their parents wanted and if they didn’t then obedience was beaten into them, an era in which uppity women got what was coming to them.

    The American far right would have like history to stop around the mid-19th century.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @dfordoom

    You have probably heard of Calhoun's rat experiments?

    Replies: @dfordoom

  295. @dfordoom
    @Bashibuzuk



    It seems that people who appreciate civilisation are more and more a minority.
     
    What in your opinion causes this?
     
    One of the big things has been environmentalism which has taught people that civilisation is wicked because it's supposedly destroying the planet. Environmentalism is a weird quasi-religious doomsday cult but most people (even on the Right) have swallowed it hook, line and sinker. Environmentalism has much in common with the Romantic Movement - a silly sentimental worship of nature, an irrational hostility to industrialisation (factories bad, forests good) a simplistic rejection of materialism, phoney pop spiritualism and the idea of technological progress as sinful.

    What's really worrying is that so many people on the Right (or at least on the far right) have become anti-civilisational. Partly that's because they hate cities because they think cities are full of liberals. Partly it's because far right Christians think cities are full of atheists. Partly it's the growing irrationalism of the far right - the story of western civilisation from the beginning of the sixteenth century has been the story of the triumph of reason over superstition but the far right prefers superstition (as evidenced by their obsession with conspiracy theories).

    Partly it's the American far right's idealisation of 18th and 19th century (or even 17th century) rural life - sturdy patriots with guns, women who did what they were told, close-knit communities in which everyone believed in God and guns and hated commies, an idealised nostalgia for an era when non-whites knew their place and grovelled to the White Man, a nostalgia for an age in which kids did what their parents wanted and if they didn't then obedience was beaten into them, an era in which uppity women got what was coming to them.

    The American far right would have like history to stop around the mid-19th century.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    You have probably heard of Calhoun’s rat experiments?

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Bashibuzuk


    You have probably heard of Calhoun’s rat experiments?
     
    Sure.

    Studies on rats don't tell us much about human behaviour. We are cultural animals, and we're the only cultural animals. Some of our behaviour is innate but a huge amount of it is either culturally determined or modified by culture.

    You could for example create a perfect environment for rats, or cats, or squirrels or for any other animal species. You can't create a perfect environment for people. We're too different. We're too different due to social/cultural influences. A utopia for one person is a living hell for another.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

  296. @Mikel
    @dfordoom

    I agree that it's totally pointless to try to convince other people of one's aesthetic preferences. When you find someone who happens to share yours, it's great because you have a lot to talk about and experiences to share but they're obviously of no interest to the rest. As far as I'm concerned, the more people stay in cities and the less they crowd the natural spaces, the better.

    But you haven't answered an interesting question upthread. Do you prefer to contemplate a man-made representation of a beautiful young woman or the actual woman herself? Arguably, the most beautiful thing nature has made for us humans to enjoy seeing is the female body so this looks like a valuable comparison in this discussion. Can humans make something of comparable beauty at all?

    To be fair, the question is a bit tricky because nature also gave us males the desire to posses that beautiful body so a fair assessment may be difficult. How much is appreciation of beauty and how much is desire? But, talking about lesbianism, I think that women, regardless of sexual orientation, are also perfectly capable of appreciating the beauty of their own bodies. Miley Cirus recently put it bluntly: "breasts are nicer than balls", an assessment that both my wife and I agreed with when we heard it.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    But you haven’t answered an interesting question upthread. Do you prefer to contemplate a man-made representation of a beautiful young woman or the actual woman herself?

    It’s a simple answer but I’m not going to give a simple answer.

    Firstly, I’m not hostile to the human world. People often disappoint me but on the whole I like people and I’m fascinated by them. I like women and I’m fascinated by them. And I can certainly appreciate female beauty, both sexually and aesthetically.

    I’d rather contemplate a picture of a beautiful young woman than a picture of a mountain. I’d rather contemplate a flesh-and-blood beautiful young woman than a real mountain. I’d rather contemplate a picture of a beautiful young woman than a real mountain.

    I’d rather contemplate a picture of a mountain than a real mountain (in fact I’d prefer to contemplate neither but if I had to make the choice I’d pick the picture of the mountain).

    As for a flesh-and-blood beautiful young woman versus a picture of a beautiful young woman, I’d obviously prefer to have a sexual and/or emotional and/or affectionately friendly relationship with a flesh-and-blood beautiful young woman rather than with a picture because you can’t have a relationship with a picture. But you can get a great deal of pleasure from contemplating a picture of a beautiful young woman. And human beauty is fleeting while art is forever. So the appreciation of a beautiful young woman is not the same as the appreciation of a man-made representation of a beautiful young woman. I can appreciate both, in different ways.

    • Replies: @Mikel
    @dfordoom

    I think that you are avoiding a direct answer to the question because it would show that, at least in some instances, you also prefer the work of nature to the work of man. But that's OK. If you feel disgusted by nature in most instances it doesn't make you a bad person to me. Just a little weird, perhaps, and I could also try to find a theory to explain why your preferences are so different from mine but I'm too busy living my life for that. I don't care.

    However, I do think that your theory about the influence of the Romantics does not explain my inclinations at all. I came to love nature through mountaineering and this is an activity that began to become popular among the higher classes in the 18th century. If anything, it must have been the Enlightenment that propitiated this kind of activity. Before those times people tended to avoid the high peaks because they evoked the presence of fearsome spirits. The end of those superstitions and taking the natural word for what it is is what must have brought about the desire to explore its most remote corners.

    Replies: @RSDB, @dfordoom

  297. Footage of the Iranian missile attack from early 2020.

  298. You don’t want Disney to get stolen by Russians, right?

  299. @Bashibuzuk
    @dfordoom


    It seems that people who appreciate civilisation are more and more a minority.
     
    What in your opinion causes this?

    Replies: @silviosilver, @dfordoom, @dfordoom

    It seems that people who appreciate civilisation are more and more a minority.

    What in your opinion causes this?

    Another interesting thing to consider is the far right’s hostility to art, which is an important component of the far right’s anti-civilisational bias.

    I can understand that hostility up to a point. When you look at the sorry history of western art over the past century then hostility towards art is understandable. And artists have very often been liberals or leftists.

    But for some on the far right that has led to hostility towards art in general. And it has strengthened their hostility to civilisation since they see art and civilisation as being closely linked, which of course they are.

  300. @Bashibuzuk
    @silviosilver

    OTOH I think there might be more to this rejection of civilization. Calhoun's Universe 25 experiment comes to mind. People living under strong civilizations end up mentally and morally exhausted. It's dehumanizing to spend one's whole life in an artificial environment. We need to walk the middle path between culture/civilization and nature/wilderness. We need to be able to do complex work, contemplate abstract ideas and yet retain some "feral" aspects of our human nature.

    Too much of civilization kills civilization.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    It’s dehumanizing to spend one’s whole life in an artificial environment.

    It depends on the person and it depends on the artificial environment.

    I’d find it dehumanising to have to live in a shack in the wilderness, with only guns and a Bible for company. But some members of the far right would love it.

    People vary. Some people need to be surrounded by lots of other people while some prefer solitude. Some people need to be near forests and some people need to be near shops and museums and art galleries. Some people like Italian food while others don’t. Some people like playing golf while others like playing chess. Some people like hiking and some people like fast cars. Some people like living in city centres, some like living in suburbia, some like living in small towns, some like living in the wilderness.

    It’s dangerous to start thinking that one’s own preferences must be shared by others and it’s even more dangerous to think that there’s something wrong with people who have different preferences. That’s dehumanising. And it’s a kind of dehumanising thinking that is increasingly common among both liberals and conservatives.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @dfordoom


    And it’s a kind of dehumanising thinking that is increasingly common among both liberals and conservatives.
     
    Agree with that, this is because our social tissue, our links as a human community - as a civilisation - are coming undone. This is a symptom of a deep social and cultural malaise. But the symptom is not the cause.

    You didn't answer my question about Calhoun and his experiments. I would be surprised if you didn't hear of his Universe 25.

    Replies: @dfordoom

  301. @dfordoom
    @Bashibuzuk


    It’s dehumanizing to spend one’s whole life in an artificial environment.
     
    It depends on the person and it depends on the artificial environment.

    I'd find it dehumanising to have to live in a shack in the wilderness, with only guns and a Bible for company. But some members of the far right would love it.

    People vary. Some people need to be surrounded by lots of other people while some prefer solitude. Some people need to be near forests and some people need to be near shops and museums and art galleries. Some people like Italian food while others don't. Some people like playing golf while others like playing chess. Some people like hiking and some people like fast cars. Some people like living in city centres, some like living in suburbia, some like living in small towns, some like living in the wilderness.

    It's dangerous to start thinking that one's own preferences must be shared by others and it's even more dangerous to think that there's something wrong with people who have different preferences. That's dehumanising. And it's a kind of dehumanising thinking that is increasingly common among both liberals and conservatives.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    And it’s a kind of dehumanising thinking that is increasingly common among both liberals and conservatives.

    Agree with that, this is because our social tissue, our links as a human community – as a civilisation – are coming undone. This is a symptom of a deep social and cultural malaise. But the symptom is not the cause.

    You didn’t answer my question about Calhoun and his experiments. I would be surprised if you didn’t hear of his Universe 25.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Bashibuzuk


    Agree with that, this is because our social tissue, our links as a human community – as a civilisation – are coming undone. This is a symptom of a deep social and cultural malaise.
     
    I agree. But a lot of people want to throw out the baby with the bathwater. The fact that a particular human civilisation, namely modern western civilisation, has developed very severe problems is no reason to reject civilisation.

    It's also no reason to reject every aspect of modern western civilisation. Modern western civilisation, with all its faults, is preferable to living in a pre-civilised society.
  302. @Bashibuzuk
    @reiner Tor

    In fact human health did not improve during the neolithic agricultural revolution. It deteriorated considerably.


    Years of excavations have identified how the community was laid out, along with changes over time in the local environmental setting and its relationship to animal husbandry practices. That allows multiple lines of evidence to be used when characterizing life at Çatalhöyük, increasing confidence in the research findings. For example, femoral shaft bending strength, which is responsive to habitual activity patterns, indicates long-distance travel when changes in the environment late in the occupation favored wide-ranging caprine herding. However, these animals must still have grazed in the surrounding area, rather than in distant pastures, to judge from the stable isotopic composition of their bones.

    Living in crowded conditions in close association with domesticated animals meant that muck and filth choked passageways among closely spaced houses. In fact, traces of fecal matter, including parasite eggs, were found in buildings and nearby areas. The scale of pollution was related to the community’s size, which had a peak population of several thousand. That puts Çatalhöyük at the upper end of early farming (or Neolithic) settlements elsewhere in the world, so in that respect it shared the problems of large towns in much later complex societies.

    Children in Çatalhöyük suffered from repeated disturbances in the formation of their tooth crowns resulting in pits and grooves known as enamel hypoplasia. Presumably episodes of ill health were largely attributable to continuous contact with soil and water heavily contaminated with feces. These enamel defects are often seen in the skeletons of subsistence agriculturists elsewhere in the world, so the experience of the Çatalhöyük children was not at all unusual
     
    https://www.pnas.org/content/116/28/13721

    Agriculturalists also had less free time, not more leisure as mentioned in the comment by blatnoi. And it's the hunter gatherers who lived in a world still replete with megafauna that created the amazing European cave art.

    Replies: @blatnoi, @reiner Tor

    Depending on how barbarian they were, the majority of our ancestors have practiced agriculture for 2,000-10,000 years, and those who didn’t were usually nomads rather than hunter-gatherers. This means that we have been heavily selected for that lifestyle rather than hunting-gathering, so we are probably no longer well suited for that.

    But you are correct that the horrible diet of early (and even later) agriculturalists (including ourselves) was way worse than what the hunter-gatherers ate, and the introduction of lots of new diseases with human vectors caused a marked deterioration of quality of life as well as lifespan and healthspan.

  303. @Bashibuzuk
    @mal

    Yes, Goa Trance was strong back then. I still remember the Dragonfly Records and Goa Head compilations. But raves started earlier.

    Already in the early 90ies, rave parties had their musical style evolved from the Detroit house music. In Europe it rapidly gained ground in Netherlands, UK and Germany where it became a social phenomenon by the late 90ies with May Day and the Love Parade.

    Bonzai and Platipus records were important for early Techno music, there were others that I don't remember which I really liked, Italian ones if I am not mistaken.

    In Russia too Techno and Trance was quite popular in the mid - 90ies. There was an excellent electronic music program on one of the Moscow FM radios that I used to listen to.



    https://youtu.be/kZynI2APMRg

    https://youtu.be/G-NhwX1pvT4

    I was going to the raves for the shamanic feeling, it brought something very strong in me. If one wants to immerse oneself into nostalgic memories of that time, German Lola Rennt movie is just perfect.

    https://youtu.be/PvTEZgrH5tw

    Replies: @mal, @Vishnugupta, @AP

    A real pity this type of music is no longer produced..

    There used to be this website ‘Tranceaddict’ on which you could download live sets by these greats ..

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @Vishnugupta


    A real pity this type of music is no longer produced..
     
    There are lots of excellent electronic music produced today. This channel on YouTube has a lot of it.

    https://youtube.com/c/ThePsychedelicMuse
    , @silviosilver
    @Vishnugupta


    A real pity this type of music is no longer produced..
     
    I listened to a bit of the first tune you linked, and I was going to write a mocking comment about how I once used to listen to this kind of music, but that I never was never a huge fan of it and that I only really ever got into because that's what the crowd I hanged out with listened to, that my listening to it had far more to do with the kind of social image I wanted to project than my actual enthusiasm for the music itself.

    But then I clicked on each of the other videos in turn and listened to at least half way through, and I began to be flooded with memories of parties and clubs and friends I'd forgotten about and loves lost, as well as cringey memories of the way I used to be and the stupid things I've done, and regrets - lots and lots of regrets - and even a bit of nostalgic longing for a phase of my life that is now obviously impossible to recover. So I think, all in all, I probably did genuinely enjoy this kind of music more than I've been telling myself in my cynical older age.

    Replies: @AP

  304. @blatnoi
    @silviosilver


    Great example: wtf is in Siberia worth trying to preserve? Pave the fucking thing over – even if for no other reason than to prove you can. Pave it now! A shopping mall on every square mile of Siberian turf would be a huge upgrade to the ghastly tundra that land is cursed with.
     
    Sounds great in theory, but the problem is that as you knowledge, you are incorrect here:

    It’s technically neutral, but I like to personalize it and say nature tries to thwart human existence at every turn, so fuck nature, nature is the enemy.
     
    Since in reality nature is neutral and humans are part of nature, our brains are wired to become happy from natural cues such as increasing sunlight, birdsong, breathing fresh air, etc... You can't divorce your brain from your body, which receives environmental cues, and tells you to be under sunlight to be happy. This is why I enjoy hiking in the mountains or desert canyons. Enjoying being in nature is something that is required for human happiness until we transfer our consciences into robotic bodies (spoiler: don't worry about this). You won't be able to sustain your hatred for nature if you consider it logically, but you don't want to go the full AaronB either.

    This is also why living on Mars will never happen on scale unless the planet is previously terraformed (spoiler: which won't happen anytime soon since Elon Musk is a bit of a fantasist/(con-man?)) Can you imagine living in a small room for the rest of your life, with no birds flying outside the window, not being able to go outside without a space-suit, slowly deteriorating bone density due to the lower gravity?

    Replies: @songbird, @reiner Tor, @silviosilver

    I agree that it’s just bizarre to hate nature, while worshiping nature without considering that most of us (I guess everyone in this thread) would quickly die without civilization is equally silly. People need some kind of tamed nature for their happiness and perhaps even to stay alive, and they need civilization to… stay alive.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @reiner Tor


    I agree that it’s just bizarre to hate nature, while worshiping nature without considering that most of us (I guess everyone in this thread) would quickly die without civilization is equally silly. People need some kind of tamed nature for their happiness and perhaps even to stay alive, and they need civilization to… stay alive.
     
    I know it's a very radical suggestion but maybe we need to learn to accept compromises. And maybe we need to learn to reject extreme solutions to social, political and cultural problems. Maybe we need a society in which it is accepted that people have complex and differing needs.

    In order to be happy some people need more contact with nature and some people need less. Some people need more contact with other people and others need less. Some people need to live in crowded cities, some people need to live in small communities, some people need to live in solitude. THere's no right way to live and no wrong way.

    The only solution is to accept that there's no one solution. The only way to create a liveable human society is compromise. Which means giving up on the idea of imposing our differing views on others.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    , @Morton's toes
    @reiner Tor

    Key word is proportion. Food and drink and drugs and sex provide satiety if we are paying any attention to the senses feedback. This is not the case for money or power. Nobody has a sense of too much money but there actually is such a thing. Good for us it is hard to come by!

  305. @Bashibuzuk
    @dfordoom

    You have probably heard of Calhoun's rat experiments?

    Replies: @dfordoom

    You have probably heard of Calhoun’s rat experiments?

    Sure.

    Studies on rats don’t tell us much about human behaviour. We are cultural animals, and we’re the only cultural animals. Some of our behaviour is innate but a huge amount of it is either culturally determined or modified by culture.

    You could for example create a perfect environment for rats, or cats, or squirrels or for any other animal species. You can’t create a perfect environment for people. We’re too different. We’re too different due to social/cultural influences. A utopia for one person is a living hell for another.

    • Agree: Kent Nationalist
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @dfordoom

    On the contrary, I'd say that we already have created our utopia as closely as Calhoun's rats have. And like his rats, find it much to dissatisfaction.

    To completely ignore his experiment by claiming human exceptionalism is quite missing the point and loses a lot of potential knowledge to be gained from it.

    Replies: @dfordoom

  306. @Bashibuzuk
    @dfordoom


    And it’s a kind of dehumanising thinking that is increasingly common among both liberals and conservatives.
     
    Agree with that, this is because our social tissue, our links as a human community - as a civilisation - are coming undone. This is a symptom of a deep social and cultural malaise. But the symptom is not the cause.

    You didn't answer my question about Calhoun and his experiments. I would be surprised if you didn't hear of his Universe 25.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    Agree with that, this is because our social tissue, our links as a human community – as a civilisation – are coming undone. This is a symptom of a deep social and cultural malaise.

    I agree. But a lot of people want to throw out the baby with the bathwater. The fact that a particular human civilisation, namely modern western civilisation, has developed very severe problems is no reason to reject civilisation.

    It’s also no reason to reject every aspect of modern western civilisation. Modern western civilisation, with all its faults, is preferable to living in a pre-civilised society.

  307. @dfordoom
    @Bashibuzuk


    You have probably heard of Calhoun’s rat experiments?
     
    Sure.

    Studies on rats don't tell us much about human behaviour. We are cultural animals, and we're the only cultural animals. Some of our behaviour is innate but a huge amount of it is either culturally determined or modified by culture.

    You could for example create a perfect environment for rats, or cats, or squirrels or for any other animal species. You can't create a perfect environment for people. We're too different. We're too different due to social/cultural influences. A utopia for one person is a living hell for another.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    On the contrary, I’d say that we already have created our utopia as closely as Calhoun’s rats have. And like his rats, find it much to dissatisfaction.

    To completely ignore his experiment by claiming human exceptionalism is quite missing the point and loses a lot of potential knowledge to be gained from it.

    • Replies: @dfordoom
    @Daniel Chieh


    To completely ignore his experiment by claiming human exceptionalism is quite missing the point and loses a lot of potential knowledge to be gained from it.
     
    I said, "Studies on rats don’t tell us much about human behaviour." I didn't say, "Studies on rats can’t tell us anything at all about human behaviour."

    If you completely ignore human exceptionalism and rely on studies on rats you're going to be led badly astray.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Bashibuzuk

  308. @reiner Tor
    @blatnoi

    I agree that it’s just bizarre to hate nature, while worshiping nature without considering that most of us (I guess everyone in this thread) would quickly die without civilization is equally silly. People need some kind of tamed nature for their happiness and perhaps even to stay alive, and they need civilization to... stay alive.

    Replies: @dfordoom, @Morton's toes

    I agree that it’s just bizarre to hate nature, while worshiping nature without considering that most of us (I guess everyone in this thread) would quickly die without civilization is equally silly. People need some kind of tamed nature for their happiness and perhaps even to stay alive, and they need civilization to… stay alive.

    I know it’s a very radical suggestion but maybe we need to learn to accept compromises. And maybe we need to learn to reject extreme solutions to social, political and cultural problems. Maybe we need a society in which it is accepted that people have complex and differing needs.

    In order to be happy some people need more contact with nature and some people need less. Some people need more contact with other people and others need less. Some people need to live in crowded cities, some people need to live in small communities, some people need to live in solitude. THere’s no right way to live and no wrong way.

    The only solution is to accept that there’s no one solution. The only way to create a liveable human society is compromise. Which means giving up on the idea of imposing our differing views on others.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @dfordoom

    Midwit take.

  309. @dfordoom
    @reiner Tor


    I agree that it’s just bizarre to hate nature, while worshiping nature without considering that most of us (I guess everyone in this thread) would quickly die without civilization is equally silly. People need some kind of tamed nature for their happiness and perhaps even to stay alive, and they need civilization to… stay alive.
     
    I know it's a very radical suggestion but maybe we need to learn to accept compromises. And maybe we need to learn to reject extreme solutions to social, political and cultural problems. Maybe we need a society in which it is accepted that people have complex and differing needs.

    In order to be happy some people need more contact with nature and some people need less. Some people need more contact with other people and others need less. Some people need to live in crowded cities, some people need to live in small communities, some people need to live in solitude. THere's no right way to live and no wrong way.

    The only solution is to accept that there's no one solution. The only way to create a liveable human society is compromise. Which means giving up on the idea of imposing our differing views on others.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh

    Midwit take.

  310. @Daniel Chieh
    @dfordoom

    On the contrary, I'd say that we already have created our utopia as closely as Calhoun's rats have. And like his rats, find it much to dissatisfaction.

    To completely ignore his experiment by claiming human exceptionalism is quite missing the point and loses a lot of potential knowledge to be gained from it.

    Replies: @dfordoom

    To completely ignore his experiment by claiming human exceptionalism is quite missing the point and loses a lot of potential knowledge to be gained from it.

    I said, “Studies on rats don’t tell us much about human behaviour.” I didn’t say, “Studies on rats can’t tell us anything at all about human behaviour.”

    If you completely ignore human exceptionalism and rely on studies on rats you’re going to be led badly astray.

    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @dfordoom

    Not as badly astray, I suspect, as someone who didn't bother understanding the study at all, and therefore can profit neither from its discoveries or its errors. Try this, perhaps.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_sink

    , @Bashibuzuk
    @dfordoom

    One thing that Calhoun demonstrated was that highly organized artificial environments can be population sinks even if everything is provided to ensure population survival. Civilizations create highly organized artificial environments (big cities) which always act as population sinks.

    Also, Calhoun demonstrated that in these population sinks, the drop in reproduction is not due to lack of ressources, but to an excess of intraspecies stimulation and interaction and lack of natural stimuli and stress. Simply said, too many people drive people nuts, they start to experience neuroses and develop biologically inadequate behaviors, reproduction drop, offspring rearing is no longer functioning and population dies out.

    Many past civilisations have exhibited these symptoms. Starting with Neolithic Malta and ending with our global Western Civilization, which was the greatest of them all until now.

    Too much Civilization kills civilization.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @dfordoom

  311. @dfordoom
    @Daniel Chieh


    To completely ignore his experiment by claiming human exceptionalism is quite missing the point and loses a lot of potential knowledge to be gained from it.
     
    I said, "Studies on rats don’t tell us much about human behaviour." I didn't say, "Studies on rats can’t tell us anything at all about human behaviour."

    If you completely ignore human exceptionalism and rely on studies on rats you're going to be led badly astray.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Bashibuzuk

    Not as badly astray, I suspect, as someone who didn’t bother understanding the study at all, and therefore can profit neither from its discoveries or its errors. Try this, perhaps.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Behavioral_sink

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
  312. @dfordoom
    @Daniel Chieh


    To completely ignore his experiment by claiming human exceptionalism is quite missing the point and loses a lot of potential knowledge to be gained from it.
     
    I said, "Studies on rats don’t tell us much about human behaviour." I didn't say, "Studies on rats can’t tell us anything at all about human behaviour."

    If you completely ignore human exceptionalism and rely on studies on rats you're going to be led badly astray.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @Bashibuzuk

    One thing that Calhoun demonstrated was that highly organized artificial environments can be population sinks even if everything is provided to ensure population survival. Civilizations create highly organized artificial environments (big cities) which always act as population sinks.

    Also, Calhoun demonstrated that in these population sinks, the drop in reproduction is not due to lack of ressources, but to an excess of intraspecies stimulation and interaction and lack of natural stimuli and stress. Simply said, too many people drive people nuts, they start to experience neuroses and develop biologically inadequate behaviors, reproduction drop, offspring rearing is no longer functioning and population dies out.

    Many past civilisations have exhibited these symptoms. Starting with Neolithic Malta and ending with our global Western Civilization, which was the greatest of them all until now.

    Too much Civilization kills civilization.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    @Bashibuzuk


    Simply said, too many people drive people nuts, they start to experience neuroses and develop biologically inadequate behaviors, reproduction drop, offspring rearing is no longer functioning and population dies out.
     
    Sounds reasonable. Is there any evidence of this effect in earlier times? If cities are the population sinks you claim they are, I think there should be such evidence. Or is the claim that level of stimulation reached today is such that these effects can be expected? That sounds reasonable too.

    Even before the internet, I was well aware that some sorts of people rub me the wrong way so much that their presence is never anything but a source of irritation to me; but the internet - specifically, social media - has brought home to me just how great and unbridgeable the differences are, as well as making it more difficult to ignore or forget about these people's existence.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    , @dfordoom
    @Bashibuzuk


    Too much Civilization kills civilization.
     
    So is the answer to reject civilisation? Should we all live in huts in the forests? We can't simply dismantle civilisation.

    Going back to nature is not a solution.

    It's also possible that the problems of urbanisation will solve themselves. If cities lead to declining populations we may end up with something closer to an optimum population. If the problem is that cities are bad because they have too many people but cities lead to declining populations then what you have is a self-correcting problem.

    And we're smarter than rats. Rats finding themselves in a destructive environment can't do anything about it. We have more options. For example we have the option of making changes to urban environments. Rethinking our ideas on what cities should be like. Rats can't do that because rats are terrible at urban planning.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @lauris71

  313. @Vishnugupta
    @Bashibuzuk

    A real pity this type of music is no longer produced..

    https://youtu.be/44E8mz6I6o0

    https://youtu.be/g4pOl5DEU0c

    https://youtu.be/5f2SJZTHCwU

    https://youtu.be/-MU-PGePJsQ

    There used to be this website 'Tranceaddict' on which you could download live sets by these greats ..

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @silviosilver

    A real pity this type of music is no longer produced..

    There are lots of excellent electronic music produced today. This channel on YouTube has a lot of it.

    https://youtube.com/c/ThePsychedelicMuse

  314. AP says:
    @Bashibuzuk
    @mal

    Yes, Goa Trance was strong back then. I still remember the Dragonfly Records and Goa Head compilations. But raves started earlier.

    Already in the early 90ies, rave parties had their musical style evolved from the Detroit house music. In Europe it rapidly gained ground in Netherlands, UK and Germany where it became a social phenomenon by the late 90ies with May Day and the Love Parade.

    Bonzai and Platipus records were important for early Techno music, there were others that I don't remember which I really liked, Italian ones if I am not mistaken.

    In Russia too Techno and Trance was quite popular in the mid - 90ies. There was an excellent electronic music program on one of the Moscow FM radios that I used to listen to.



    https://youtu.be/kZynI2APMRg

    https://youtu.be/G-NhwX1pvT4

    I was going to the raves for the shamanic feeling, it brought something very strong in me. If one wants to immerse oneself into nostalgic memories of that time, German Lola Rennt movie is just perfect.

    https://youtu.be/PvTEZgrH5tw

    Replies: @mal, @Vishnugupta, @AP

    Already in the early 90ies, rave parties had their musical style evolved from the Detroit house music

    Those were interesting times. We would call a hotline to find the place in advance (these rave parties weren’t legal), go to an abandoned factory deep in Detroit. Some local gang was paid off and kept an eye on our cars and kept everything safe. I was at a party with perhaps 800 or so people in Detroit, and later in Frankfurt I would be at a rave with the same DJ, and several thousand people.

    But I never made it to Goa.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @AP

    If I was younger I would have gone to one of these outdoor festivals:

    https://youtu.be/UiM5CgT1g7Q

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  315. @Vishnugupta
    @Bashibuzuk

    A real pity this type of music is no longer produced..

    https://youtu.be/44E8mz6I6o0

    https://youtu.be/g4pOl5DEU0c

    https://youtu.be/5f2SJZTHCwU

    https://youtu.be/-MU-PGePJsQ

    There used to be this website 'Tranceaddict' on which you could download live sets by these greats ..

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @silviosilver

    A real pity this type of music is no longer produced..

    I listened to a bit of the first tune you linked, and I was going to write a mocking comment about how I once used to listen to this kind of music, but that I never was never a huge fan of it and that I only really ever got into because that’s what the crowd I hanged out with listened to, that my listening to it had far more to do with the kind of social image I wanted to project than my actual enthusiasm for the music itself.

    But then I clicked on each of the other videos in turn and listened to at least half way through, and I began to be flooded with memories of parties and clubs and friends I’d forgotten about and loves lost, as well as cringey memories of the way I used to be and the stupid things I’ve done, and regrets – lots and lots of regrets – and even a bit of nostalgic longing for a phase of my life that is now obviously impossible to recover. So I think, all in all, I probably did genuinely enjoy this kind of music more than I’ve been telling myself in my cynical older age.

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
    • Replies: @AP
    @silviosilver

    Heh, we’ve all moved on. The music still works well for nighttime drives though.

  316. @blatnoi
    @silviosilver


    Great example: wtf is in Siberia worth trying to preserve? Pave the fucking thing over – even if for no other reason than to prove you can. Pave it now! A shopping mall on every square mile of Siberian turf would be a huge upgrade to the ghastly tundra that land is cursed with.
     
    Sounds great in theory, but the problem is that as you knowledge, you are incorrect here:

    It’s technically neutral, but I like to personalize it and say nature tries to thwart human existence at every turn, so fuck nature, nature is the enemy.
     
    Since in reality nature is neutral and humans are part of nature, our brains are wired to become happy from natural cues such as increasing sunlight, birdsong, breathing fresh air, etc... You can't divorce your brain from your body, which receives environmental cues, and tells you to be under sunlight to be happy. This is why I enjoy hiking in the mountains or desert canyons. Enjoying being in nature is something that is required for human happiness until we transfer our consciences into robotic bodies (spoiler: don't worry about this). You won't be able to sustain your hatred for nature if you consider it logically, but you don't want to go the full AaronB either.

    This is also why living on Mars will never happen on scale unless the planet is previously terraformed (spoiler: which won't happen anytime soon since Elon Musk is a bit of a fantasist/(con-man?)) Can you imagine living in a small room for the rest of your life, with no birds flying outside the window, not being able to go outside without a space-suit, slowly deteriorating bone density due to the lower gravity?

    Replies: @songbird, @reiner Tor, @silviosilver

    You won’t be able to sustain your hatred for nature if you consider it logically, but you don’t want to go the full AaronB either.

    Lol, come on. You really think I’m sitting here in my seat, gripping the armrests, grinding my teeth and stewing with hatred at nature? (“goddam fucking nature, just you wait, I’ll show you, ya bastard!!!”)

    As I acknowledged, everything that I am (and think and feel) is inescapably a part of nature, so unless I strike you as a complete moron, it’s silly to take my “fuck nature” statement too literally.

    While the distinction between natural and manmade is obviously artificial and illusory, in everyday language we all know what it’s trying to get at, and I think I’m perfectly within my rights to be more impressed by the latter, and maintaining an attitude of “fuck nature” is the surest antidote I know against being seduced into worshipping the former.

    • Replies: @blatnoi
    @silviosilver


    Lol, come on. You really think I’m sitting here in my seat, gripping the armrests, grinding my teeth and stewing with hatred at nature? (“goddam fucking nature, just you wait, I’ll show you, ya bastard!!!”)
     
    Well, you know. I don't know what you look like and we're really just user names and some text to each other. After I read over my posts, I actually can't believe that I wrote that since it sounds very different to what I imagine myself to be in daily life as well, so that's another layer. I definitely don't have the least generous interpretations of other commenters because of that.

    For what it's worth, I think I get what you're getting at in the rest of your post and it's a valid sentiment in a way.
  317. @silviosilver
    @Vishnugupta


    A real pity this type of music is no longer produced..
     
    I listened to a bit of the first tune you linked, and I was going to write a mocking comment about how I once used to listen to this kind of music, but that I never was never a huge fan of it and that I only really ever got into because that's what the crowd I hanged out with listened to, that my listening to it had far more to do with the kind of social image I wanted to project than my actual enthusiasm for the music itself.

    But then I clicked on each of the other videos in turn and listened to at least half way through, and I began to be flooded with memories of parties and clubs and friends I'd forgotten about and loves lost, as well as cringey memories of the way I used to be and the stupid things I've done, and regrets - lots and lots of regrets - and even a bit of nostalgic longing for a phase of my life that is now obviously impossible to recover. So I think, all in all, I probably did genuinely enjoy this kind of music more than I've been telling myself in my cynical older age.

    Replies: @AP

    Heh, we’ve all moved on. The music still works well for nighttime drives though.

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk, Vishnugupta
  318. @AaronB
    @blatnoi

    It just so happens, that hunter gatherers had significantly more leisure than was available in agricultural societies, and mankind suffered much more from disease epidemics in crowded cities. And complex civilization introduced harsh hierarchies and slavery.

    We went over this ground before on other threads.

    However, I understand many people on this blog are what I described in my original comment as "hard core materialists", who necessarily view human comfort, or some kind of physical advantage, as the highest ideal.

    Even if everything you say about the discomforts and dangers of nature are real, I am saying prolonged time spend in nature offers an intensely pleasurable experience of a kind not found in cities, which for those who have it, seems well worth the sacrifice in comfort, and which can transform one's sense of place in the universe and put strictly human concerns - like status, money, competition, even survival - in a different perspective.

    After all, many people sacrifice comfort and advantage to climb mountains or race across deserts - and report the experience is worth more than any comfort sacrificed.

    So again, if comfort is your main priority, or safety, or long term survival, or extending human power over the physical world - stay in modern civilization. (Debatable, there is a huge downside in comfort and safety in crowded cities, but I will concede your point).

    But if your main concern is an "experience" - an ecstatic experience of life that cannot even be put into words, that religions sometimes hint at but get badly wrong when they try and institutionalize it, a thrilling sense of mystery, or in less intense form and less dramatic terms simply an experience of pleasure that can't be had in crowded human cities in a man made environment by coming into contact with something elemental - then prolonged contact with magnificent natural settings is the way to go.

    This is certainly not for everyone. Many people might even fear it.

    And even though I come down on the side of a life in nature, I see like cities and see beauty and value in them, and enjoy visiting them for a few days. In some ways, a huge city can be as mysterious as the wilderness, with winding alleys leading to the discovery of strange cafes and bars and art galleries and hidden shrines and temples, and magnificent architecture. In other words not planned, organized, rational cities, but organic cities that retain a whiff of nature.

    So cities can have a Romance of its own, if done right (most modern cities are not).

    I am suggesting that man needs a sense of the mysterious and the numinous, and needs to come into contact with the non human world and see his essential connection with it. That this is not a question of comfort or safety or any kind of purely physical advantage - and even that deprioritizing these things can be beneficial for a while. That man is a part of nature and if he builds cities, to build them in organic, unplanned ways at least in part, that represent the organic pattern of nature and not sterile, cold rationality.

    But to each hisown.

    Replies: @Mikel, @blatnoi

    It just so happens, that hunter gatherers had significantly more leisure than was available in agricultural societies, and mankind suffered much more from disease epidemics in crowded cities. And complex civilization introduced harsh hierarchies and slavery.

    The hunter gatherer lifestyle also meant a much lower population density, and you cannot be sure it was that much greater leisure. The few who survived to adulthood would have a greater abundance of calories, but would also face war and population collapse. Living in an ordered agricultural society on the Nile meant that you could be assured that not all your children will die before 5 years old and you could hope for them to move up in the hierarchy.

    I am suggesting that man needs a sense of the mysterious and the numinous, and needs to come into contact with the non human world and see his essential connection with it.

    Today I used two machines that cost a million dollars to look at some properties of substances that I made that would not exist in free nature, but obeys its laws. Only two countries have companies that sell these machines for basic/industrial research (USA one company for both types and Japan two companies for each instrument type). I guess other countries can make something in-house for a boutique use, but these are our only options since these companies specialize on making easy to use instruments in largish numbers. This is a very involved supply chain and required thousands of years of civilizational advance to get to this point, with straight streets so that the instrument doesn’t get tipped over on a sharp turn. Looking at an electron density map that has tight peaks (and thus would give a good quality structure) and letting a computer algorithm solve it in 10 seconds, or at a very pure nuclear magnetic resonance spectrum with its sharp peaks for each hydrogen nucleus after the computer performed a Fourier transform on a bunch of overlapping frequencies in the time domain, allowed me to see two very unusual compounds this week that will probably turn into two papers a few years from now. But it also filled me with a sense of wonder of how the atoms could be put together to make these compounds that are really surprising and unexpected. It’s basically looking at rules of nature and a non-human world, and having our advanced civilization to thank for it.

    Your ability to appreciate nature as some sort of a religious experience is also dependent on advances made by our civilization, but perhaps not as blatantly explicit and technological as the example above and maybe having something to do with an Enlightenment influenced philosophy (Hermann Hesse?). You probably realize this to the extent that you didn’t disappear in the woods like Ted Kaczynski or an Irish hermit monk, and are still checking the Internet and leaving comments on various websites.

    • Replies: @AaronB
    @blatnoi

    I appreciate your scientific experiments and that they can be a vehicle for wonder and a form of contact with the non human. Many scientists certainly felt that way and it's a valid position. Certainly on a higher level than mere interest in domination over the physical world (although the two cannot be easily separated).

    While valid on one level and an important experience, it is still the world ""interpreted" by the human mind and it's categories - even if it takes one to the very edge of these categories.

    I would submit that we can benefit from contact with a realm not "interpreted" by the human mind on any level, but that is beyond language and all question of physical advantage.

    When I go into nature and have a sense of the numinous, the experience cannot be put into words or logical formulas and does not pertain to any question of physical advantage or survival.

    It is, in fact, to leave "human concerns" - our preoccupation with physical advantage and survival, the heart of science and every day life, and the humanly "interpreted" world, behind.

    For that reason it is healing.

    What you get through science and what I am describing are not opposed, but complimentary.

    Unfortunately, this has become a "fight", between two "sides", as everything does these days.

    My original intention was not to take away anyone's comfort, safety, and convenience and suggest they live a primitive life. I merely wanted to share a beautiful experience, and suggest that the troubles and cares, anxieties and depressions, that so many in the modern world feel, can be lessened through contact with a world that is beyond the man made.

    But I'm not saying one should completely spurn the man made world. I myself am car camping for much of this trip. I enjoy in the cool crisp mornings going to nice cafes in nearby towns and enjoying a delicious breakfast and good coffee.

    Every week or so I check into a fancy hotel. Mike just did a road trip enjoying spectacular landscapes - unless I'm wrong he stayed in hotels and drove the whole time.

    One of the most delicious experiences on this trip I'm discovering is to watch movies in some wilderness area in the middle of nowhere on my tablet, and drink a few shots of good whiskey, in a remote, lonely location amid natural splendor. Every so often I will take a break from the movie and step outside to stare at the stars.

    I love old architecture and medieval towns and gothic cathedrals and good art. I enjoy the conveniences of civilization.

    I am only saying that there is a certain kind of very good and important experience that you can only have away from the human and man made world. Keep your pleasures, your conveniences, and your safety, but perhaps realize there is something bigger out there that may help you to come into contact with every so often.

    I enjoy excursions into the wild