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Population is power, so it pays to keep track of it (along with national IQ and GDPcc), for those with an interest in geopolitics and futurism.

I used to spend way too much time poring over statistics almanacs and the CIA World Factbook during my school years, so I have a pretty good fix on the populations of major countries.

That is, when someone names “population of-“, the first number that leaps to my head is:

  • Germany – 82M
  • France – 65M
  • UK – 65M
  • Italy – 60M
  • USA – 320M
  • Russia – 145M
  • China – 1.3B

These are all broadly accurate, though China is now converging to 1.4B, the US is at 330M, and some other minor discrepancies.

They are also major countries so I “update” them more frequently.

In the case of smaller countries, I am less accurate, because the information is less important and because I update it more frequently. For instance, earlier this year, I was shocked to discover that Serbia’s population was 7M, not 10M. I had obviously kept conflating it with all its rightful territories territories still intact. But such cases are rare, at least for Europe.

But this becomes much less accurate when you expand into Third World countries:

  • India – 1.1B
  • Indonesia – 230M
  • Nigeria – 150M
  • Bangladeshi – 150M
  • Egypt – 90M
  • Turkey – 80M
  • Iran – 80M
  • Ethiopia – 70M
  • DRC – 50M

I know in my head that all of these populations are larger, but those are still the first figures that tend to come to mind when those countries are named.

In reality, the differences can be pretty stark: India is converging with China to 1.4B, Indonesia is at 270M, Nigeria is approaching 200M, Egypt is at 100M, Ethiopia is at 110M, and the DRC is at 85M.

The Third World countries are underestimated, twice over for two reasons, first because they are changing much more quickly so it is easy to be left behind, and second because they’re less important so mentally updated less often anyway.

Then there are a few countries, mostly in Eastern Europe, which have instead lost quite a lot of people. For instance, Ukraine is probably around 35M now, but “mental image” is still at 45M or so.

This is something that affects me and that I find amusing. Also probably quite an important phenomenon as a source of bias (failure to update), and it doesn’t just concern demographics. It’s an even bigger issue so far as perceptions of economic development, or military strength, are concerned. For instance, many “analysts” seem to believe that China outside its eastern seaboard, and Russia outside Moscow, are a twilight zone of peasant hovels and dilapidated post-industrial ruins, respectively. Which may have had some element of truth in the 1990s but are absolutely outdated today, serving as cope for insular Westerners.

 
• Category: Economics • Tags: Demographics, Media Bias, Rationality 
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  1. Please keep off topic posts to the current Open Thread.

    If you are new to my work, start here.

    Commenting rules. Please note that anonymous comments are not allowed.

  2. 216 says: • Website

    For instance, many “analysts” seem to believe that China outside its eastern seaboard, and Russia outside Moscow, are a twilight zone of peasant hovels and dilapidated post-industrial ruins, respectively. Which may have had some element of truth in the 1990s but are absolutely outdated today, serving as cope for insular Westerners.

    This is widely believed among Bluestan journolists inside the US about the rural red areas. Continuously bolstered by “exiles” via the university system.

    When the opioid crisis actually verified this stereotype, the left-media engaged in textbook victim-blaming. There was an explicit attempt to frame it as an “Appalachian” issue, ignoring the similar high rates of abuse in New England. Outside of the Dissident Right, the racial issue was ignored except to blame “racist doctors” for not prescribing to blacks.

    • Replies: @DuanDiRen
    @216

    216 is dead on, this is not an anti Russia or China issue, it is just that the kind of people who become MSM journalists don't think of not metropolitan areas as being real.
    If they were born in the hinterlands, they make sure to be ashamed of it.

    Replies: @Not only wrathful

  3. @216

    For instance, many “analysts” seem to believe that China outside its eastern seaboard, and Russia outside Moscow, are a twilight zone of peasant hovels and dilapidated post-industrial ruins, respectively. Which may have had some element of truth in the 1990s but are absolutely outdated today, serving as cope for insular Westerners.
     
    This is widely believed among Bluestan journolists inside the US about the rural red areas. Continuously bolstered by "exiles" via the university system.

    When the opioid crisis actually verified this stereotype, the left-media engaged in textbook victim-blaming. There was an explicit attempt to frame it as an "Appalachian" issue, ignoring the similar high rates of abuse in New England. Outside of the Dissident Right, the racial issue was ignored except to blame "racist doctors" for not prescribing to blacks.

    Replies: @DuanDiRen

    216 is dead on, this is not an anti Russia or China issue, it is just that the kind of people who become MSM journalists don’t think of not metropolitan areas as being real.
    If they were born in the hinterlands, they make sure to be ashamed of it.

    • Replies: @Not only wrathful
    @DuanDiRen

    Rich Chinese from major cities think exactly the same thing about everywhere else in China...

  4. TG says:

    I’m sorry, but equating raw population numbers with military or economic power is so profoundly stupid I don’t know where to start.

    In the 19th century, China – a country about the same size as the United States – had about four times the population. But the post-frontier low-fertility rate United States had developed high per-capita wealth, and China at the time was just a mass of malnourished peasants wallowing in the mud. Who do you think was the stronger nation? Of course the United States – 19th century China was a geopolitical weakling easily bullied by relatively tiny nations with well-fed and well-equipped militaries.

    A million desperate malnourished peasants, a billion, who cares? If all they can do is barely stay alive, they are not capable of projecting power of any kind.

    Russia today has fewer people than Nigeria – and if the Russians really cared (they don’t) they could conquer Nigeria with hardly a second thought.

    Yes all other things being equal, God is on the side of the bigger battalions. But all other things are not always equal, and just breeding like rats without any consideration of resources or infrastructure etc. historically does not lead to supremacy but to poverty and corruption and stangation and weakness.

    • Replies: @Max Payne
    @TG

    Karlin is great when it comes to a lot of things.... Except for military analysis. But you gotta take the rough with the smooth. Or else I wouldn't keep coming back.

    , @Svevlad
    @TG

    Well he didn't conflate it with military power. You must be confusing it with another article regarding, well, military power.

    , @Mr. Cracker
    @TG

    You should read the first paragraph of the article again.

    , @Anatoly Karlin
    @TG

    That indeed seems to be a pretty stupid take. Good thing I didn't make it.

    Replies: @TG

    , @Seraphim
    @TG

    You also fail to 'update'. We are not living in the 19th century.

  5. Population matters, only when you scale it up in consideration of bio-capital. Having a population of 100 million whites is a blessing, its what allowed the US to become a superpower after all. Having a population 100 million blacks is a curse.

    The entire 1.3 billion strong continent of Africa has contributed less to science, technology, art, culture and literature than the puny 17 million strong country of Holland. Even most of what passes for ”African” intellectual output is mostly the product of whites living in Africa, mostly in South Africa.

    Having 100s of millions of low iq blacks, inbred arabs and sub-human dravidians is not a blessing. India for example should be a world power considering it has 120-180 million 110+ IQ brahmins. But the country despite 7 decades of independence and enlightened liberal rule has remained a backwater.

    It rarely produces elite science, its industrial productivity ages behind that of China and 60% of its population is still composed of penniless farmers and day laborers. The addition of hundreds of millions of dravidians to the population has only had a negative effect on India’s fortunes.

    A lot of people seem to believe that the Brazilian favela society is a blueprint for success in the future. Particularly Richard Spencer and the FBI/Marxnats of twitter. Whites, Asians, Brahmins and Jews would rule over vast a negro-mestizoid population that does little other than manual labor and collect welfare checks.

    They reckon that such a society can still continue to be a superpower and produce elite science and maintain world class institutions. Its essentially official American policy as outlined by all the CIA-aligned think tanks like the Brookings institute.

    They’ll import a billion salvadorians and Nigerians to keep a level footing with China and maintain a colossal GDP. While importing all of Nigeria may marginally improve GDP, it will catastrophically reduce state power.

    These populations contribute nothing to the increasingly cognitive economy where physical labor is more and more obsolete due to automation. They only commit crime, eat up the money of the productive population, exhaust natural resources, create squalor and generally bring the level of society down.

    The brahmins of India might’ve been a world superpower if they had a country exclusively for themselves. But since they have to live with australoids, the quality of the society collapses across the board. Corruption, incompetence, religious backwardness, violence, resource leeching and a general pervasiveness of low standards hemorrhage the country.

    Its the same with Brazil. Brazil has 5-10 million Germans, some 20 million North Italians and some 3 million Japanese.

    When looking at raw numbers of high iq populations, Brazil has a high intellect fraction of at least 30 million. So by all rights, their intellectual output should be greater or at least equal to that of Scandinavia. Yet, the reality could not be more different.

    I think its obvious that addition of low functioning populations drastically reduces the intellectual output and overall state power of a nation. After all, America in 1990 was far more functional and capable that America today. Even though it had a 100 million fewer people, it was 70-75% white. At that age, general competence and power projection were far greater.

    Today America has the same number of whites but only at 56%. Consequently, America today is far less functional and has far less of an ability to project power than before.

    I think there should be some study into this matter as to how much a low IQ population reduces the overall state power of a country.

    There should also be some efforts to make a list of countries by biocapital, i.e how much useful population does a country have? Holland has a 12th of Nigeria’s population, but it has vastly more useful people that can contribute positively to cvilization and state power.

    My rough ranking would be:

    1. China
    2. United States
    3. Japan
    4. India/Germany
    6. Britain
    7. Russia
    8. France
    9. Italy
    10. Indonesia/Brazil.

    • Thanks: Mark G.
    • Troll: Mulga Mumblebrain
    • Replies: @Caspar Von Everec
    @Caspar Von Everec

    *Slight correction to the list.

    No 1o. should be South Korea

    , @reiner Tor
    @Caspar Von Everec


    Having a population 100 million blacks is a curse.
     
    I guess that for an African country having a bigger population still usually translates into bigger military power. Provided that it can avoid a civil war.

    Replies: @Caspar von Everec, @Hapalong Cassidy

    , @Svevlad
    @Caspar Von Everec

    Funnily enough, it's the Dravidian states in India that are the richer, more productive and high IQ.

    The entire muh Aryan north Indians is some west European pseud cope because they jack off to le ebin powerful Yamnaya chariot riders despite the fact that the Indians adopted an Indo-European language simply out of convenience because they probably had some New Guinea type every other village is it's own language family type situation, and the Indo-Europeans in the area were more like a service minority with a monopoly on transport of goods and services because they were "netural" and nomadic

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @DNS, @Caspar Von Everec

    , @Almost Missouri
    @Caspar Von Everec

    Yeah, the gross numbers Anatoly uses are a starting point, but he could do something like his CMP-type adjustments to them. For example, he has the USA at 320m or 330m (probably actually about 350m with all the illegals), but only about 200m are the white people who are what most think of as what makes the USA the USA. Still, that's the largest number of white people ever in one nation-state. (And since that number is peaking now, it may be the largest number that there ever will be, unless Russia can win the long game.)

    Similarly, he has Russia at 145m, but only, what, 100m are actual Russians? Still, 100m is the second most white people ever under one flag, and if Russia can overcome near-term fertility problems, it is not boxed in to an ideological/structural dead end like the US is. So Russia may have good prospects in the long term, if it can solve the short term.

    France at 65m, but maybe only 45m of those are actually French, while the rest are mostly imported bulk filler. Germany at 82m, but probably only 70m actual Germans (still third most whites under one flag). The French have had about a century long paranoia about their weak demographics compared to Germany. After WWI France was (justly) worried about Germany's 3:2 demographic advantage (and 5:2 in the coming draft-age cohort). So their post-WWII solution was to bulk up with a lot of foreigners, especially Arabs and Africans. Ironically, this solution to the threat of German demographic overbearance has simply created a greater threat of internal xeno-ethnic overbearance. Meanwhile the actual threat from Germany has dropped to approximately zero. On paper, France can congratulate itself on having chiseled Germany's demo advantage down to 5:4, but strip away the filler and the ratio is still the same old 3:2, and now France has imported a huge semi-hostile underclass to achieve this paper parity. So France now suffers a much bigger internal threat as a result of trying to solve an external problem that no longer exists.

    So what would be the Capital coefficient to the Labor factor à la CMP? Well, The Alternative Hypothesis guy did a good back-of-the-envelope on net tax contributions (i.e., raw contribution to state capacity) of different US ethnes. Basically, each US Hispanic, on average, cancels out the tax contribution of one US white or US Asian, while each US black cancels out the tax contribution of two US whites/Asians. So viewed this way, the actual demographic heft of the USA adjusted for ethne is 215m whites+Asians minus 50m Hispanics minus 40m (×2) blacks equals 85m net white equivalents (and sinking). So Russia and Germany suddenly look pretty competitive. Of course a similar (though less devastating) calculation could also be performed for each of them, perhaps using ethic IQ to size the contribution/detraction to state capacity. Germany, for example, would probably be something like 70m white Germans minus 12m Turks/Kurds etc. equals 58m net white equivalents. Russia would be a little trickier since the Russian whites are arguably not quite as valuable to the state as the US or German whites, and the non-Russian minorities are a more disparate melange.

    Replies: @Caspar von Everec, @reiner Tor, @songbird, @Jim Christian, @Boswald Bollocksworth

    , @Gorgeous George
    @Caspar Von Everec

    Amazing input. This deserves more than just a "thanks".


    I think there should be some study into this matter as to how much a low IQ population reduces the overall state power of a country.
     
    I wish, but doing something like that would be flagged as racist.
    , @Some Guy
    @Caspar Von Everec

    If you're thinking in terms of cognitive skills this is pretty easy to look into using https://piaacdataexplorer.oecd.org/ide/idepiaac/ which Anatoly has previously talked about.

    They don't have a lot of developing countries though(Using something like Becker's IQ database I think one could calculate it for every country pretty easily using a NORMSDIST function in google docs or the like. Not sure if the database already has population numbers, otherwise one would need to add that.).

    For example, if you look at the percentage of countries with numeracy above level 4(roughly an IQ of above 120 in white terms, so this is more smart fraction than total useful fraction) there's roughly this many millions of them(although about 35% less than this would be working age, ideally I should've used working age population numbers):

    26.4 United States
    20.2 Japan
    10.8 Germany
    10.2 Russian Federation
    5.6 England (UK)
    5.4 France
    4.0 Canada
    3.5 Republic of Korea (Dragged down by old folks who grew up poor I believe)
    3.2 Poland
    3.0 Australia
    2.7 Netherlands
    2.4 Italy
    1.9 Spain
    1.6 Sweden
    1.3 Mexico
    1.2 Hungary
    1.0 Austria
    1.0 Czech Republic
    1.0 Flanders (Belgium)
    1.0 Ontario (Canada)
    0.9 Finland
    0.8 Norway
    0.8 Israel
    0.8 Quebec (Canada)
    0.8 Turkey
    0.8 Denmark
    0.7 Singapore
    0.7 New Zealand
    0.6 Slovak Republic
    0.5 Alberta (Canada)
    0.5 Greece
    0.4 Chile
    0.4 Ireland
    0.3 Peru
    0.3 Lithuania
    0.2 Kazakhstan
    0.2 Slovenia
    0.2 Northern Ireland (UK)
    0.1 Estonia
    0.0 Ecuador

    (Note: This is based on age 16-54 from 2012 rather than 16-65 because I wasn't interested in how people who are now pensioners did. Also I used generously rounded population numbers, sometimes from memory.)

    Replies: @Caspar von everec, @Some Guy, @AltanBakshi

    , @SZ
    @Caspar Von Everec


    India for example should be a world power considering it has 120-180 million 110+ IQ brahmins. But the country despite 7 decades of independence and enlightened liberal rule has remained a backwater.
     
    Maybe the "enlightened liberal rule " is exactly what India held back compared to China. Maybe one should not play multi-party democracy and the accompanying quadrennial election festival coupled with traditional bombings and assassinations while millions of your population still poop on the street. Maybe there should be a rigid bureaucracy sorting things out until production, distribution, and communication systems are established at the national scale, and further, the population is technically as well as ideologically 'educated' so that most citizens share the same outlook and broadly follow the same rules, since if not, they vote for their 'tribe' and not for their preferences anyhow.

    Replies: @songbird

    , @AlexanderGrozny
    @Caspar Von Everec


    Having 100s of millions of low iq blacks, inbred arabs and sub-human dravidians is not a blessing. India for example should be a world power considering it has 120-180 million 110+ IQ brahmins. But the country despite 7 decades of independence and enlightened liberal rule has remained a backwater.
     
    You do realise that India is the third largest economy in the world, has it's own space program, nuclear weapons, the third largest army and is a leader in science and technology?

    Replies: @Another German Reader

    , @Boomthorkell
    @Caspar Von Everec

    As for population...

    A small smart fraction still needs the large population that supports and protects it in a natural environment. Chinese elites exist because of the wider sea of Chinese people, and China's people prosper because of the elites it has birthed. Economically productive geniuses are only as economically productive as they can be because someone is around to fix their plumbing, so they can get busy inventing space ships, and someone exists to sell that plumber a hotdog on the street and laugh and drink with them, so they don't fucking shoot themselves from loneliness, because that super-genius probably isn't going to hang out with them at a barbecue and laugh about a cartoon. It's a waste when the super-genius has to spend his time attending to tasks someone else could do just as well.

    If India's Brahmin's existed, free of the seething masses of India, they would have been utterly god-damned exterminated by some enterprising Afghan raider. In the modern-era, they would have been invaded by the Chinese and turned into Xinjiang Nan...well, realistically, they would just be another small tributary state. They would also have to spend time trading and farming and killing that they could spend developing satellites or the number 0.

    I know you're referring more to dead-weight populations of other races, but even then, an Africa with 800,000,000 Africans is better for itself than an Africa with 40,000,000, because it's more likely you'll get enough Africans sensible enough to run the show in that mega-group than one would in the smaller group. Even then, because there are so damn many of them, it's hard to directly annex them like in the old days. Now it's all "soft"-glove corporations instead of Zulu-Wars. Now, no other country would benefit from taking on those Africans (and it would be soooo meannnn to take the bright ones), but a larger population does, indeed, help them.

    Quality of people is, of course, important. Humanity will do best when it has seething trillions of people spread throughout the galaxy, forming a strong bedrock from which enlightened God-Beings can rise. We'd also have enough room then for everyone to have 6 acres and a mule, and time to think.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

    , @James N. Kennett
    @Caspar Von Everec

    Biocapital can be overridden by other factors. Russia has trouble reaching its biological potential because it is a low-trust society.


    The brahmins of India might’ve been a world superpower if they had a country exclusively for themselves.
     
    Brahmins are over-rated. I've met some who are brilliant, but others who are idiots surviving on their caste privilege. Endogamous castes are India's curse, and will prevent it achieving its national potential.
    , @Ron Unz
    @Caspar Von Everec


    India for example should be a world power considering it has 120-180 million 110+ IQ brahmins
     
    I happened to glance through this very long and interesting comment-thread, and that particular claims jumped out at me as being *extremely* implausible. What's the source?

    Indian-Americans are surely an ultra-selected sample, and I find it very unlikely that even their Brahmin slice has a mean IQ of 110, so the notion that's the case with their 120-180 million co-ethnics back home seems totally ridiculous.

    I've never looked into it, but based upon the overall mean Indian IQ, I'd guess that the Brahmin sub-population has an IQ somewhere around 95-100, certainly not bad by global standards, but hardly making them the highest IQ large population in the world.

    One thing I've discovered over the years is that people are extremely gullible when it comes to believing IQ numbers they find published somewhere on the Internet. Meanwhile, I've also noticed that Indians on the Internet are notoriously boastful. Combine those two facts together, and you get lots of silly claims.

    Replies: @dux.ie

  6. How reasonable are the UN’s Africa 2100 predictions? Two things make me question them:

    1.) The rate of urbanization predicted – Lagos of 100 million – seems to presuppose an East Asian or even supra-East Asian organizational capacity. I’m not even sure Euros could do that, with their hollowed-out, invaded cities.

    2.) In 50 years, massive declines are predicted in the population of the developed world. And it will be massively older. So much so that the elderly might become a stone around the neck of the young. At that point, political changes might be necessary to move things away from the welfare state. And if it is a case of feeding grandma or Idi Amin, they might pick grandma.

  7. @Caspar Von Everec
    Population matters, only when you scale it up in consideration of bio-capital. Having a population of 100 million whites is a blessing, its what allowed the US to become a superpower after all. Having a population 100 million blacks is a curse.

    The entire 1.3 billion strong continent of Africa has contributed less to science, technology, art, culture and literature than the puny 17 million strong country of Holland. Even most of what passes for ''African'' intellectual output is mostly the product of whites living in Africa, mostly in South Africa.

    Having 100s of millions of low iq blacks, inbred arabs and sub-human dravidians is not a blessing. India for example should be a world power considering it has 120-180 million 110+ IQ brahmins. But the country despite 7 decades of independence and enlightened liberal rule has remained a backwater.

    It rarely produces elite science, its industrial productivity ages behind that of China and 60% of its population is still composed of penniless farmers and day laborers. The addition of hundreds of millions of dravidians to the population has only had a negative effect on India's fortunes.

    A lot of people seem to believe that the Brazilian favela society is a blueprint for success in the future. Particularly Richard Spencer and the FBI/Marxnats of twitter. Whites, Asians, Brahmins and Jews would rule over vast a negro-mestizoid population that does little other than manual labor and collect welfare checks.

    They reckon that such a society can still continue to be a superpower and produce elite science and maintain world class institutions. Its essentially official American policy as outlined by all the CIA-aligned think tanks like the Brookings institute.

    They'll import a billion salvadorians and Nigerians to keep a level footing with China and maintain a colossal GDP. While importing all of Nigeria may marginally improve GDP, it will catastrophically reduce state power.

    These populations contribute nothing to the increasingly cognitive economy where physical labor is more and more obsolete due to automation. They only commit crime, eat up the money of the productive population, exhaust natural resources, create squalor and generally bring the level of society down.

    The brahmins of India might've been a world superpower if they had a country exclusively for themselves. But since they have to live with australoids, the quality of the society collapses across the board. Corruption, incompetence, religious backwardness, violence, resource leeching and a general pervasiveness of low standards hemorrhage the country.

    Its the same with Brazil. Brazil has 5-10 million Germans, some 20 million North Italians and some 3 million Japanese.

    When looking at raw numbers of high iq populations, Brazil has a high intellect fraction of at least 30 million. So by all rights, their intellectual output should be greater or at least equal to that of Scandinavia. Yet, the reality could not be more different.

    I think its obvious that addition of low functioning populations drastically reduces the intellectual output and overall state power of a nation. After all, America in 1990 was far more functional and capable that America today. Even though it had a 100 million fewer people, it was 70-75% white. At that age, general competence and power projection were far greater.

    Today America has the same number of whites but only at 56%. Consequently, America today is far less functional and has far less of an ability to project power than before.

    I think there should be some study into this matter as to how much a low IQ population reduces the overall state power of a country.

    There should also be some efforts to make a list of countries by biocapital, i.e how much useful population does a country have? Holland has a 12th of Nigeria's population, but it has vastly more useful people that can contribute positively to cvilization and state power.

    My rough ranking would be:

    1. China
    2. United States
    3. Japan
    4. India/Germany
    6. Britain
    7. Russia
    8. France
    9. Italy
    10. Indonesia/Brazil.

    Replies: @Caspar Von Everec, @reiner Tor, @Svevlad, @Almost Missouri, @Gorgeous George, @Some Guy, @SZ, @AlexanderGrozny, @Boomthorkell, @James N. Kennett, @Ron Unz

    *Slight correction to the list.

    No 1o. should be South Korea

  8. There is some good news in regards to Africa.

    https://saidit.net/s/debatealtright/comments/7r69/cautiously_optimistic_about_african_birth_rates/

    https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/AFR/africa/birth-rate

    https://www.newsecuritybeat.org/2016/04/changing-narrative-fertility-decline-africa/

    https://www.pnas.org/content/116/8/2891

    In the past twenty years, Africa’s birth rate has gone down from 38 to 32, declining about 1% each year. There might still be a chance at averting the Afrocalypse.

    Three out of four of Africa’s demographic heavy weights have seen a steep reduction in birth rates.

    https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/NGA/nigeria/fertility-rate

    https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/ETH/ethiopia/birth-rate

    https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/ZAF/south-africa/birth-rate

    Bear in mind that the actual replacement fertility for Africa is significantly higher than 2.1. They do have a large issue with child mortality, so the effective replacement fertility should be higher. For example, in the Roman Empire it was estimated that the TFR had to be 5-6 kids per women to actually sustain the existing imperial population.

    As usual female empowerment and education seems to be leading the charge in the decline. The UN is ironically doing good work in this regard. The more empowered women are, the lower the birth rates get.

    But I think an even bigger issue is the steep decline in African sperm counts.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5637027/

    I think it can be attributed to their absolutely irresponsible and senseless enviornmental practices. Africa is undergoing the largest deforestation in history. Millions of acres of beautiful, verdant forests being cut down to feed kangs and sell wood for furnitue.

    https://www.un.org/africarenewal/magazine/january-2008/saving-africa%E2%80%99s-forests-%E2%80%98lungs-world%E2%80%99

    For example, 96% of Nigeria’s forests are gone.

    https://www.vanguardngr.com/2018/09/deforestation-nigeria-has-lost-96-of-its-forest-ncf/

    They along with Brazil’s niggers and wiggers are setting the stage for a global environmental catastrophe. God knows what the consequences of destroying both the amazon and the congo basin forests will have…

    In addition they have a massive plastic pollution problem, one that is clogging their rivers. This is probably the main culprit behind declining sperm count, along with mycotoxins in the food supply.

    https://www.greenpeace.org/africa/en/blogs/11125/africas-exploding-plastic-nightmare/

    If black irresponsibility in these fields wasn’t enough, they also have mass soil erosion. Almost 40% of their soil is now degraded.

    https://www.thoughtco.com/soil-erosion-in-africa-43352

    Honestly, without White, Asian or Jewish help, Africa would suffer mass starvation and return to the stone age within 50 years.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Caspar Von Everec

    2100 is about when Saudi Arabia runs out. Might be a lot more expensive to make fertilizer at that point.

  9. Seems to me that the mistake with Próspera is that they picked Hondorus rather than Mexico (which is a few IQ points higher) to start with. You want to test out your ideas on a more Mestizo country first, IMO.

  10. @Caspar Von Everec
    There is some good news in regards to Africa.

    https://saidit.net/s/debatealtright/comments/7r69/cautiously_optimistic_about_african_birth_rates/

    https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/AFR/africa/birth-rate

    https://www.newsecuritybeat.org/2016/04/changing-narrative-fertility-decline-africa/

    https://www.pnas.org/content/116/8/2891

    In the past twenty years, Africa's birth rate has gone down from 38 to 32, declining about 1% each year. There might still be a chance at averting the Afrocalypse.

    Three out of four of Africa's demographic heavy weights have seen a steep reduction in birth rates.

    https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/NGA/nigeria/fertility-rate

    https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/ETH/ethiopia/birth-rate

    https://www.macrotrends.net/countries/ZAF/south-africa/birth-rate

    Bear in mind that the actual replacement fertility for Africa is significantly higher than 2.1. They do have a large issue with child mortality, so the effective replacement fertility should be higher. For example, in the Roman Empire it was estimated that the TFR had to be 5-6 kids per women to actually sustain the existing imperial population.

    As usual female empowerment and education seems to be leading the charge in the decline. The UN is ironically doing good work in this regard. The more empowered women are, the lower the birth rates get.

    But I think an even bigger issue is the steep decline in African sperm counts.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5637027/

    I think it can be attributed to their absolutely irresponsible and senseless enviornmental practices. Africa is undergoing the largest deforestation in history. Millions of acres of beautiful, verdant forests being cut down to feed kangs and sell wood for furnitue.

    https://www.un.org/africarenewal/magazine/january-2008/saving-africa%E2%80%99s-forests-%E2%80%98lungs-world%E2%80%99

    For example, 96% of Nigeria's forests are gone.

    https://www.vanguardngr.com/2018/09/deforestation-nigeria-has-lost-96-of-its-forest-ncf/

    They along with Brazil's niggers and wiggers are setting the stage for a global environmental catastrophe. God knows what the consequences of destroying both the amazon and the congo basin forests will have...

    In addition they have a massive plastic pollution problem, one that is clogging their rivers. This is probably the main culprit behind declining sperm count, along with mycotoxins in the food supply.

    https://www.greenpeace.org/africa/en/blogs/11125/africas-exploding-plastic-nightmare/

    If black irresponsibility in these fields wasn't enough, they also have mass soil erosion. Almost 40% of their soil is now degraded.

    https://www.thoughtco.com/soil-erosion-in-africa-43352

    Honestly, without White, Asian or Jewish help, Africa would suffer mass starvation and return to the stone age within 50 years.

    Replies: @songbird

    2100 is about when Saudi Arabia runs out. Might be a lot more expensive to make fertilizer at that point.

  11. Hungarians’ view of Ukraine is greatly influenced by Subcarpathia. (Based on Hungary, where Budapest is richer, people usually accurately assume Kiev to be richer than the rest of the country.) Now this is one of the poorest regions of Ukraine, but it is not usually assumed to be so, see my next point.

    Since Eastern Hungary is poorer, it was extrapolated to the former USSR, and in the 1990s there was a widespread belief that Russia would be even poorer than Ukraine (and thus Subcarpathia). Since then many people have learned that Russia is richer than Ukraine “because of oil,” but it’s still often believed to be much less developed than Hungary (reality is maybe 15-20% lower GDP per capita).

    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
    @reiner Tor

    It's a cope. Your people feel the need to look down on someone, since they have massive inferiority complex vis-a-vis Western Europe.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Manfrog

    , @Dmitry
    @reiner Tor

    In 2012, (which does not seem like a long time ago for me), GDP per capita was actually higher in Russia than in Hungary and Poland in some measurements.

    The difference has re-emerged just in the last few years, where Orban has been economically successful and attracted a lot of foreign investments (although sadly for Hungary's old people - pandemically incompetent political leadership) while the Russian income has stagnated due to fall in the world commodity prices.

    https://i.imgur.com/hFV6nsm.jpg


    Hungarian is afflicted by a strong sense of inferiority relative to real Europeans

     

    That must be painful for Hungary, when their ex-husband Austria climbed into the wealthiest countries in the world, while their own incomes closer the Balkan hinterlands they used to rule.

    https://i.imgur.com/dq5Sirx.jpg

  12. My parents had a world atlas from the early 1970s, and I was reading the wildly out of date datasets and looking at the out of date maps for a long time.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    @reiner Tor


    My parents had a world atlas from the early 1970s, and I was reading the wildly out of date datasets and looking at the out of date maps for a long time.
     
    As a kid, I had a set of Funk and Wagnall's encyclopedias (deliberately mispronounced fuckin' wagnalls, of course) from the early 80s, making them already somewhat outdated by the time I got stuck into them in the early 90s. But it really annoyed me that I'd come across entries saying things like "the population in 1973 was xxx,xxx." I'd think, shit, aren't these people experts, is it really so hard for them to get more up to date information? Whatever the deleterious sociocultural effects of the "digital age" (growing more worrisome to me with each passing year), I'll always be grateful to the internet for doing away with this particular problem.
  13. @Caspar Von Everec
    Population matters, only when you scale it up in consideration of bio-capital. Having a population of 100 million whites is a blessing, its what allowed the US to become a superpower after all. Having a population 100 million blacks is a curse.

    The entire 1.3 billion strong continent of Africa has contributed less to science, technology, art, culture and literature than the puny 17 million strong country of Holland. Even most of what passes for ''African'' intellectual output is mostly the product of whites living in Africa, mostly in South Africa.

    Having 100s of millions of low iq blacks, inbred arabs and sub-human dravidians is not a blessing. India for example should be a world power considering it has 120-180 million 110+ IQ brahmins. But the country despite 7 decades of independence and enlightened liberal rule has remained a backwater.

    It rarely produces elite science, its industrial productivity ages behind that of China and 60% of its population is still composed of penniless farmers and day laborers. The addition of hundreds of millions of dravidians to the population has only had a negative effect on India's fortunes.

    A lot of people seem to believe that the Brazilian favela society is a blueprint for success in the future. Particularly Richard Spencer and the FBI/Marxnats of twitter. Whites, Asians, Brahmins and Jews would rule over vast a negro-mestizoid population that does little other than manual labor and collect welfare checks.

    They reckon that such a society can still continue to be a superpower and produce elite science and maintain world class institutions. Its essentially official American policy as outlined by all the CIA-aligned think tanks like the Brookings institute.

    They'll import a billion salvadorians and Nigerians to keep a level footing with China and maintain a colossal GDP. While importing all of Nigeria may marginally improve GDP, it will catastrophically reduce state power.

    These populations contribute nothing to the increasingly cognitive economy where physical labor is more and more obsolete due to automation. They only commit crime, eat up the money of the productive population, exhaust natural resources, create squalor and generally bring the level of society down.

    The brahmins of India might've been a world superpower if they had a country exclusively for themselves. But since they have to live with australoids, the quality of the society collapses across the board. Corruption, incompetence, religious backwardness, violence, resource leeching and a general pervasiveness of low standards hemorrhage the country.

    Its the same with Brazil. Brazil has 5-10 million Germans, some 20 million North Italians and some 3 million Japanese.

    When looking at raw numbers of high iq populations, Brazil has a high intellect fraction of at least 30 million. So by all rights, their intellectual output should be greater or at least equal to that of Scandinavia. Yet, the reality could not be more different.

    I think its obvious that addition of low functioning populations drastically reduces the intellectual output and overall state power of a nation. After all, America in 1990 was far more functional and capable that America today. Even though it had a 100 million fewer people, it was 70-75% white. At that age, general competence and power projection were far greater.

    Today America has the same number of whites but only at 56%. Consequently, America today is far less functional and has far less of an ability to project power than before.

    I think there should be some study into this matter as to how much a low IQ population reduces the overall state power of a country.

    There should also be some efforts to make a list of countries by biocapital, i.e how much useful population does a country have? Holland has a 12th of Nigeria's population, but it has vastly more useful people that can contribute positively to cvilization and state power.

    My rough ranking would be:

    1. China
    2. United States
    3. Japan
    4. India/Germany
    6. Britain
    7. Russia
    8. France
    9. Italy
    10. Indonesia/Brazil.

    Replies: @Caspar Von Everec, @reiner Tor, @Svevlad, @Almost Missouri, @Gorgeous George, @Some Guy, @SZ, @AlexanderGrozny, @Boomthorkell, @James N. Kennett, @Ron Unz

    Having a population 100 million blacks is a curse.

    I guess that for an African country having a bigger population still usually translates into bigger military power. Provided that it can avoid a civil war.

    • Replies: @Caspar von Everec
    @reiner Tor

    Well a country of 100 million should in theory be capable of mustering a 1 million strong army. However that's far easier to do on paper than in reality. It takes an ungodly amount of logistical competence and efficiency to fully maintain and field such a force.

    Seeing Africa's state capacity, the ability of their leaders to field such a force is practically nil. If anything such a large army could start fighting itself over inter tribal feuds.

    Nominally the Nigerian government rules over 200 million blacks but in reality they have littel control over most of them. Its borderline impossible to get a population as inbred and low iq like sub saharans to overcome tribal difference and act as a coherent national unit.

    Though they look like large compact blocks on the map, in reality African countries are divided into hundreds if not thousands of semi-autonomous tribes and sects.

    Replies: @Wency

    , @Hapalong Cassidy
    @reiner Tor

    Paul Kagane took his relatively tiny band of Tutsi rebels and overthrew the government of Rwanda - and this was after half of his people, who were a minority in the country to begin with, had been genocided by the Hutus. He then proceeded invade Congo and wreak havoc there for over a decade. The Tutsis probably are higher IQ than most of their African neighbors, and Kagane in particular seems exceptional.

  14. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Demographics_of_Nigeria#Vital_statistics It is rather unclear whether Nigerian TFR has really decreased in the last decade. All those “projections” are meaningless.

  15. @reiner Tor
    Hungarians’ view of Ukraine is greatly influenced by Subcarpathia. (Based on Hungary, where Budapest is richer, people usually accurately assume Kiev to be richer than the rest of the country.) Now this is one of the poorest regions of Ukraine, but it is not usually assumed to be so, see my next point.

    Since Eastern Hungary is poorer, it was extrapolated to the former USSR, and in the 1990s there was a widespread belief that Russia would be even poorer than Ukraine (and thus Subcarpathia). Since then many people have learned that Russia is richer than Ukraine “because of oil,” but it’s still often believed to be much less developed than Hungary (reality is maybe 15-20% lower GDP per capita).

    Replies: @Felix Keverich, @Dmitry

    It’s a cope. Your people feel the need to look down on someone, since they have massive inferiority complex vis-a-vis Western Europe.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Felix Keverich

    Objectively speaking the average Hungarian is better off than some 70 or perhaps 80% of humanity. Including the majority of Russians. (Though probably not Muscovites.)

    Replies: @Felix Keverich

    , @Manfrog
    @Felix Keverich

    How do Slavs cope, then?

  16. @Felix Keverich
    @reiner Tor

    It's a cope. Your people feel the need to look down on someone, since they have massive inferiority complex vis-a-vis Western Europe.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Manfrog

    Objectively speaking the average Hungarian is better off than some 70 or perhaps 80% of humanity. Including the majority of Russians. (Though probably not Muscovites.)

    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
    @reiner Tor

    The average Hungarian is not familiar with any of these stats. The average Hungarian is afflicted by a strong sense of inferiority relative to real Europeans.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @iffen

  17. @reiner Tor
    @Felix Keverich

    Objectively speaking the average Hungarian is better off than some 70 or perhaps 80% of humanity. Including the majority of Russians. (Though probably not Muscovites.)

    Replies: @Felix Keverich

    The average Hungarian is not familiar with any of these stats. The average Hungarian is afflicted by a strong sense of inferiority relative to real Europeans.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Felix Keverich


    The average Hungarian is not familiar with any of these stats.
     
    The point of this post was how people use obsolete data in their mental models of reality. I added that often such things are based on using the wrong heuristic (“going east means poorer”) and extrapolating from the wrong data (“Subcarpathia must be similar to the rest of Ukraine”).

    The average Hungarian is afflicted by a strong sense of inferiority relative to real Europeans.
     
    Perhaps, just like the average Russian. So how is that relevant here?

    Replies: @Felix Keverich

    , @iffen
    @Felix Keverich

    The average Hungarian is afflicted by a strong sense of inferiority relative to real Europeans.

    Wait a minute, aren't you Slavic?

    LOL

  18. I was recently caught using 20 year old, highly out of date, data in an online debate, it was very embarrassing. So there’s some comfort in knowing that others, smarter and more knowledgeable than myself, fall into the same trap.

    • Replies: @BlackFlag
    @JL

    Today, I said that the earth's human population was 7B. Someone corrected it to 8B despite of COVID! Happened so fast.

    , @iffen
    @JL

    I was recently caught using 20 year old, highly out of date, data in an online debate,

    That's what you get by trying to use facts in a debate. There is a way around that which works beautifully and is used by most debaters.

  19. @Felix Keverich
    @reiner Tor

    The average Hungarian is not familiar with any of these stats. The average Hungarian is afflicted by a strong sense of inferiority relative to real Europeans.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @iffen

    The average Hungarian is not familiar with any of these stats.

    The point of this post was how people use obsolete data in their mental models of reality. I added that often such things are based on using the wrong heuristic (“going east means poorer”) and extrapolating from the wrong data (“Subcarpathia must be similar to the rest of Ukraine”).

    The average Hungarian is afflicted by a strong sense of inferiority relative to real Europeans.

    Perhaps, just like the average Russian. So how is that relevant here?

    • Replies: @Felix Keverich
    @reiner Tor

    The idea that “going east means poorer” doesn't come from any particular data set, but from Hungarians' very own deep, emotional feeling inferiority vs Western Europe. "mental models of reality" are contructed to support this emotional state. Data that contradicts the emotion is disregarded.

    Inferiority complex itself is a product of Western-centric worldview, and thus correlates with pro-Western politics. It's most present in Eastern European liberals and svidomy types, which is basically Hungarian political spectrum. Russian vatniks are not afflicted by it. Vatniks are emotionally healthier individuals.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @reiner Tor, @AP

  20. @TG
    I'm sorry, but equating raw population numbers with military or economic power is so profoundly stupid I don't know where to start.

    In the 19th century, China - a country about the same size as the United States - had about four times the population. But the post-frontier low-fertility rate United States had developed high per-capita wealth, and China at the time was just a mass of malnourished peasants wallowing in the mud. Who do you think was the stronger nation? Of course the United States - 19th century China was a geopolitical weakling easily bullied by relatively tiny nations with well-fed and well-equipped militaries.

    A million desperate malnourished peasants, a billion, who cares? If all they can do is barely stay alive, they are not capable of projecting power of any kind.

    Russia today has fewer people than Nigeria - and if the Russians really cared (they don't) they could conquer Nigeria with hardly a second thought.

    Yes all other things being equal, God is on the side of the bigger battalions. But all other things are not always equal, and just breeding like rats without any consideration of resources or infrastructure etc. historically does not lead to supremacy but to poverty and corruption and stangation and weakness.

    Replies: @Max Payne, @Svevlad, @Mr. Cracker, @Anatoly Karlin, @Seraphim

    Karlin is great when it comes to a lot of things…. Except for military analysis. But you gotta take the rough with the smooth. Or else I wouldn’t keep coming back.

  21. @JL
    I was recently caught using 20 year old, highly out of date, data in an online debate, it was very embarrassing. So there's some comfort in knowing that others, smarter and more knowledgeable than myself, fall into the same trap.

    Replies: @BlackFlag, @iffen

    Today, I said that the earth’s human population was 7B. Someone corrected it to 8B despite of COVID! Happened so fast.

  22. @TG
    I'm sorry, but equating raw population numbers with military or economic power is so profoundly stupid I don't know where to start.

    In the 19th century, China - a country about the same size as the United States - had about four times the population. But the post-frontier low-fertility rate United States had developed high per-capita wealth, and China at the time was just a mass of malnourished peasants wallowing in the mud. Who do you think was the stronger nation? Of course the United States - 19th century China was a geopolitical weakling easily bullied by relatively tiny nations with well-fed and well-equipped militaries.

    A million desperate malnourished peasants, a billion, who cares? If all they can do is barely stay alive, they are not capable of projecting power of any kind.

    Russia today has fewer people than Nigeria - and if the Russians really cared (they don't) they could conquer Nigeria with hardly a second thought.

    Yes all other things being equal, God is on the side of the bigger battalions. But all other things are not always equal, and just breeding like rats without any consideration of resources or infrastructure etc. historically does not lead to supremacy but to poverty and corruption and stangation and weakness.

    Replies: @Max Payne, @Svevlad, @Mr. Cracker, @Anatoly Karlin, @Seraphim

    Well he didn’t conflate it with military power. You must be confusing it with another article regarding, well, military power.

  23. @Caspar Von Everec
    Population matters, only when you scale it up in consideration of bio-capital. Having a population of 100 million whites is a blessing, its what allowed the US to become a superpower after all. Having a population 100 million blacks is a curse.

    The entire 1.3 billion strong continent of Africa has contributed less to science, technology, art, culture and literature than the puny 17 million strong country of Holland. Even most of what passes for ''African'' intellectual output is mostly the product of whites living in Africa, mostly in South Africa.

    Having 100s of millions of low iq blacks, inbred arabs and sub-human dravidians is not a blessing. India for example should be a world power considering it has 120-180 million 110+ IQ brahmins. But the country despite 7 decades of independence and enlightened liberal rule has remained a backwater.

    It rarely produces elite science, its industrial productivity ages behind that of China and 60% of its population is still composed of penniless farmers and day laborers. The addition of hundreds of millions of dravidians to the population has only had a negative effect on India's fortunes.

    A lot of people seem to believe that the Brazilian favela society is a blueprint for success in the future. Particularly Richard Spencer and the FBI/Marxnats of twitter. Whites, Asians, Brahmins and Jews would rule over vast a negro-mestizoid population that does little other than manual labor and collect welfare checks.

    They reckon that such a society can still continue to be a superpower and produce elite science and maintain world class institutions. Its essentially official American policy as outlined by all the CIA-aligned think tanks like the Brookings institute.

    They'll import a billion salvadorians and Nigerians to keep a level footing with China and maintain a colossal GDP. While importing all of Nigeria may marginally improve GDP, it will catastrophically reduce state power.

    These populations contribute nothing to the increasingly cognitive economy where physical labor is more and more obsolete due to automation. They only commit crime, eat up the money of the productive population, exhaust natural resources, create squalor and generally bring the level of society down.

    The brahmins of India might've been a world superpower if they had a country exclusively for themselves. But since they have to live with australoids, the quality of the society collapses across the board. Corruption, incompetence, religious backwardness, violence, resource leeching and a general pervasiveness of low standards hemorrhage the country.

    Its the same with Brazil. Brazil has 5-10 million Germans, some 20 million North Italians and some 3 million Japanese.

    When looking at raw numbers of high iq populations, Brazil has a high intellect fraction of at least 30 million. So by all rights, their intellectual output should be greater or at least equal to that of Scandinavia. Yet, the reality could not be more different.

    I think its obvious that addition of low functioning populations drastically reduces the intellectual output and overall state power of a nation. After all, America in 1990 was far more functional and capable that America today. Even though it had a 100 million fewer people, it was 70-75% white. At that age, general competence and power projection were far greater.

    Today America has the same number of whites but only at 56%. Consequently, America today is far less functional and has far less of an ability to project power than before.

    I think there should be some study into this matter as to how much a low IQ population reduces the overall state power of a country.

    There should also be some efforts to make a list of countries by biocapital, i.e how much useful population does a country have? Holland has a 12th of Nigeria's population, but it has vastly more useful people that can contribute positively to cvilization and state power.

    My rough ranking would be:

    1. China
    2. United States
    3. Japan
    4. India/Germany
    6. Britain
    7. Russia
    8. France
    9. Italy
    10. Indonesia/Brazil.

    Replies: @Caspar Von Everec, @reiner Tor, @Svevlad, @Almost Missouri, @Gorgeous George, @Some Guy, @SZ, @AlexanderGrozny, @Boomthorkell, @James N. Kennett, @Ron Unz

    Funnily enough, it’s the Dravidian states in India that are the richer, more productive and high IQ.

    The entire muh Aryan north Indians is some west European pseud cope because they jack off to le ebin powerful Yamnaya chariot riders despite the fact that the Indians adopted an Indo-European language simply out of convenience because they probably had some New Guinea type every other village is it’s own language family type situation, and the Indo-Europeans in the area were more like a service minority with a monopoly on transport of goods and services because they were “netural” and nomadic

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Svevlad


    Funnily enough, it’s the Dravidian states in India that are the richer, more productive and high IQ.
     
    Correct, but North was for a very, very long time ruled by Muslims, unlike the South.

    Replies: @CCG

    , @DNS
    @Svevlad


    Funnily enough, it’s the Dravidian states in India that are the richer, more productive and high IQ.
     
    Interestingly, there seems to be a positive correlation between "Dravidian" (actually "Ancestral South Indian" as coined by David Reich) admixture and HDI.

    https://i.imgur.com/hJS0rYY.jpg

    Although the most dysfunctional parts of India are located in the BIMARU states while the North-West states like Haryana and Punjab are pretty decent.

    Pakistan is likely very backwards due to the corrupting influence of Islamism, it used to be a fairly advanced country until Zia ul-Haq brought about sweeping Islamisation measures which radically transformed the fabric of Pakistani society for the worse.

    Replies: @Shango

    , @Caspar Von Everec
    @Svevlad

    I think that's owed to the congress government prioritizing South India's development for decades. It received far more in infrastructure spending and education than the north. Perhaps they reckoned it was more urgent to develop these regions owing to separatist sentiments there and because they're adjacent to the sea and thus the main nodes of export and import

  24. @reiner Tor
    @Felix Keverich


    The average Hungarian is not familiar with any of these stats.
     
    The point of this post was how people use obsolete data in their mental models of reality. I added that often such things are based on using the wrong heuristic (“going east means poorer”) and extrapolating from the wrong data (“Subcarpathia must be similar to the rest of Ukraine”).

    The average Hungarian is afflicted by a strong sense of inferiority relative to real Europeans.
     
    Perhaps, just like the average Russian. So how is that relevant here?

    Replies: @Felix Keverich

    The idea that “going east means poorer” doesn’t come from any particular data set, but from Hungarians’ very own deep, emotional feeling inferiority vs Western Europe. “mental models of reality” are contructed to support this emotional state. Data that contradicts the emotion is disregarded.

    Inferiority complex itself is a product of Western-centric worldview, and thus correlates with pro-Western politics. It’s most present in Eastern European liberals and svidomy types, which is basically Hungarian political spectrum. Russian vatniks are not afflicted by it. Vatniks are emotionally healthier individuals.

    • Agree: Kazan
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Felix Keverich


    Inferiority complex itself is a product of Western-centric worldview, and thus correlates with pro-Western politics. It’s most present in Eastern European liberals and svidomy types, which is basically Hungarian political spectrum. Russian vatniks are not afflicted by it. Vatniks are emotionally healthier individuals.
     
    Then you must be something else, not a vatnik, because you seem to harbor deep insecurities yourself. Chill out dude, Hungary is like 7% the size of Russia (in terms of population), you don’t need to care so deeply about what Hungarians think.

    The idea that “going east means poorer” doesn’t come from any particular data set
     
    Well within Hungary it’s certainly true that the westernmost big cities like Szombathely, Sopron or Győr are significantly richer than the easternmost big cities like Miskolc, Debrecen, Szeged or Nyíregyháza. Of our neighbors the westernmost one, Austria is also by far the richest. The easternmost Ukraine is the poorest. Slovakia to the north (in between the two) is in between in terms of wealth as well. Of our southern neighbors Austria is richer than Slovenia, which is richer than Croatia, which is richer than Serbia and Romania, which are both richer than Ukraine, so the only exception to the rule is Romania being richer than Serbia. But even there it wasn’t true before the early 1990s.

    Replies: @Bies Podkrakowski, @AP, @Kazan, @Beckow

    , @reiner Tor
    @Felix Keverich


    Eastern European liberals and svidomy types, which is basically Hungarian political spectrum
     
    What does “svidomy” mean in a Hungarian context?
    , @AP
    @Felix Keverich


    The idea that “going east means poorer” doesn’t come from any particular data set
     
    Within both Hungary and Poland going East indeed means going poorer (with Warsaw being an exception for obvious reasons). Historically - at least, in the 19th and early 20th centuries, prior to Communism, Galicia was the wealthiest part of Ukraine while the Russian-ruled parts were poorer. And then of course, Poland and Hungary have been and continue to be poorer than Germany and Austria, yet richer than their eastern neighbors (Russia, Ukraine and Belarus).

    The fact that you deny these obvious facts suggests that you, not the realistic eastern and central Europeans, have some emotional issues regarding inferiority vis a vis Western Europe.
  25. @Caspar Von Everec
    Population matters, only when you scale it up in consideration of bio-capital. Having a population of 100 million whites is a blessing, its what allowed the US to become a superpower after all. Having a population 100 million blacks is a curse.

    The entire 1.3 billion strong continent of Africa has contributed less to science, technology, art, culture and literature than the puny 17 million strong country of Holland. Even most of what passes for ''African'' intellectual output is mostly the product of whites living in Africa, mostly in South Africa.

    Having 100s of millions of low iq blacks, inbred arabs and sub-human dravidians is not a blessing. India for example should be a world power considering it has 120-180 million 110+ IQ brahmins. But the country despite 7 decades of independence and enlightened liberal rule has remained a backwater.

    It rarely produces elite science, its industrial productivity ages behind that of China and 60% of its population is still composed of penniless farmers and day laborers. The addition of hundreds of millions of dravidians to the population has only had a negative effect on India's fortunes.

    A lot of people seem to believe that the Brazilian favela society is a blueprint for success in the future. Particularly Richard Spencer and the FBI/Marxnats of twitter. Whites, Asians, Brahmins and Jews would rule over vast a negro-mestizoid population that does little other than manual labor and collect welfare checks.

    They reckon that such a society can still continue to be a superpower and produce elite science and maintain world class institutions. Its essentially official American policy as outlined by all the CIA-aligned think tanks like the Brookings institute.

    They'll import a billion salvadorians and Nigerians to keep a level footing with China and maintain a colossal GDP. While importing all of Nigeria may marginally improve GDP, it will catastrophically reduce state power.

    These populations contribute nothing to the increasingly cognitive economy where physical labor is more and more obsolete due to automation. They only commit crime, eat up the money of the productive population, exhaust natural resources, create squalor and generally bring the level of society down.

    The brahmins of India might've been a world superpower if they had a country exclusively for themselves. But since they have to live with australoids, the quality of the society collapses across the board. Corruption, incompetence, religious backwardness, violence, resource leeching and a general pervasiveness of low standards hemorrhage the country.

    Its the same with Brazil. Brazil has 5-10 million Germans, some 20 million North Italians and some 3 million Japanese.

    When looking at raw numbers of high iq populations, Brazil has a high intellect fraction of at least 30 million. So by all rights, their intellectual output should be greater or at least equal to that of Scandinavia. Yet, the reality could not be more different.

    I think its obvious that addition of low functioning populations drastically reduces the intellectual output and overall state power of a nation. After all, America in 1990 was far more functional and capable that America today. Even though it had a 100 million fewer people, it was 70-75% white. At that age, general competence and power projection were far greater.

    Today America has the same number of whites but only at 56%. Consequently, America today is far less functional and has far less of an ability to project power than before.

    I think there should be some study into this matter as to how much a low IQ population reduces the overall state power of a country.

    There should also be some efforts to make a list of countries by biocapital, i.e how much useful population does a country have? Holland has a 12th of Nigeria's population, but it has vastly more useful people that can contribute positively to cvilization and state power.

    My rough ranking would be:

    1. China
    2. United States
    3. Japan
    4. India/Germany
    6. Britain
    7. Russia
    8. France
    9. Italy
    10. Indonesia/Brazil.

    Replies: @Caspar Von Everec, @reiner Tor, @Svevlad, @Almost Missouri, @Gorgeous George, @Some Guy, @SZ, @AlexanderGrozny, @Boomthorkell, @James N. Kennett, @Ron Unz

    Yeah, the gross numbers Anatoly uses are a starting point, but he could do something like his CMP-type adjustments to them. For example, he has the USA at 320m or 330m (probably actually about 350m with all the illegals), but only about 200m are the white people who are what most think of as what makes the USA the USA. Still, that’s the largest number of white people ever in one nation-state. (And since that number is peaking now, it may be the largest number that there ever will be, unless Russia can win the long game.)

    Similarly, he has Russia at 145m, but only, what, 100m are actual Russians? Still, 100m is the second most white people ever under one flag, and if Russia can overcome near-term fertility problems, it is not boxed in to an ideological/structural dead end like the US is. So Russia may have good prospects in the long term, if it can solve the short term.

    France at 65m, but maybe only 45m of those are actually French, while the rest are mostly imported bulk filler. Germany at 82m, but probably only 70m actual Germans (still third most whites under one flag). The French have had about a century long paranoia about their weak demographics compared to Germany. After WWI France was (justly) worried about Germany’s 3:2 demographic advantage (and 5:2 in the coming draft-age cohort). So their post-WWII solution was to bulk up with a lot of foreigners, especially Arabs and Africans. Ironically, this solution to the threat of German demographic overbearance has simply created a greater threat of internal xeno-ethnic overbearance. Meanwhile the actual threat from Germany has dropped to approximately zero. On paper, France can congratulate itself on having chiseled Germany’s demo advantage down to 5:4, but strip away the filler and the ratio is still the same old 3:2, and now France has imported a huge semi-hostile underclass to achieve this paper parity. So France now suffers a much bigger internal threat as a result of trying to solve an external problem that no longer exists.

    So what would be the Capital coefficient to the Labor factor à la CMP? Well, The Alternative Hypothesis guy did a good back-of-the-envelope on net tax contributions (i.e., raw contribution to state capacity) of different US ethnes. Basically, each US Hispanic, on average, cancels out the tax contribution of one US white or US Asian, while each US black cancels out the tax contribution of two US whites/Asians. So viewed this way, the actual demographic heft of the USA adjusted for ethne is 215m whites+Asians minus 50m Hispanics minus 40m (×2) blacks equals 85m net white equivalents (and sinking). So Russia and Germany suddenly look pretty competitive. Of course a similar (though less devastating) calculation could also be performed for each of them, perhaps using ethic IQ to size the contribution/detraction to state capacity. Germany, for example, would probably be something like 70m white Germans minus 12m Turks/Kurds etc. equals 58m net white equivalents. Russia would be a little trickier since the Russian whites are arguably not quite as valuable to the state as the US or German whites, and the non-Russian minorities are a more disparate melange.

    • Thanks: Mark G.
    • Replies: @Caspar von Everec
    @Almost Missouri

    Excellent idea on ''substracting'' blacks and hispanics from whites and Asians in the US. I'd add that 72 million out 80 million German population is actually white. The number of Germans is probably something of the order of 64 million.

    As far as France, the white population is about 51-54 million. France has had extensive european migration, primarily from Italy and Spain for the last two centuries. The percentage of actual French, i.e Gauls, Bretons, Franks and Occitan is a mystery. Though I read an estimate that its about 40 million or so.

    So yes, the Germans still have that 1.5:1 advantage over the French.

    Russia is far better off that it seems. Its roughly 85% white when you count Russians, Ukrainians, Germans and Greeks. That amounts to some 124 million people. Its diversity isn't that toxic either. The largest minority is Volga tatar who have an IQ near identical to Russians and is genetically about 70-80% Slavic.

    Other minorities like Tajiks, Udmurts and other eccentric groups are nowhere near as toxic as American Blacks, and to a much lesser extent, hispanics.

    The American hispanic contingent is a mixed bag. Around half of it is Castizo supposedly, 75% white(mostly Iberian) people that identify as hispanic for the diversity points. They are borderline white.

    I think if you count only the mestizos or Amerindians, the net tax impact will be far worse.

    Japan also has significant human capital, as does Korea.

    But China probably has more human capital and ''effective population'' than the rest of the world combined. 1.3 Billion 105 iq Han Chinese.

    There are a lot of fantastic narratives about Germans or Britons trying to conquer the world or America or the USSR overrunning the planet. None of them ever had the human capital to do it.

    China however has the potential to be strong that they could take on and defeat the rest of the world combined and truly conquer and subjugate the whole planet. The CCP for its part however, has not been too successful in harnessing this potential.

    China's technological or scientific prowess is still behind the US and its achievements in culture and architecture is nothing to write home about. Though this could change in the coming future. My guess is that the CCP impedes China's true potential by piling on marxist baggage.

    If the CCP reformed and dropped marxism altogether and became a full on national socialist state which glorified and promoted Chinese history, tradition and religion instead of suppressing it, it might achieve far greater wonders

    Replies: @Shango, @Almost Missouri

    , @reiner Tor
    @Almost Missouri


    he has Russia at 145m, but only, what, 100m are actual Russians?
     
    More like 115m.
    , @songbird
    @Almost Missouri

    I think Americans may be the most woke to demographics.

    In the past 20-30 years, the world almanac numbers for many European countries have hardly altered. They've seen the changing faces on the street, but not the big factbook changes. Contrast that to America, where someone who went to school 20 years ago was taught we had a population of 248 million and someone who went to school 20 years ago was taught 281 million, and, boy have we seen the changes on the street!

    In fact, I've often wondered if any past demographic model even predicted where we are now. You look at the future models, and none of them seem to show the same rate of growth. Almost like they are trying to disarm people.

    , @Jim Christian
    @Almost Missouri


    Basically, each US Hispanic, on average, cancels out the tax contribution of one US white or US Asian, while each US black cancels out the tax contribution of two US whites/Asians.
     
    Yeah, tax measurements, but that means nothing competitively. When you consider population by competition, how do you calculate the useless EEOC hires of women into HR, academia and government? Instantly calculate at a minimum, 80-90% of the US population of women is and has always been an enormous liability. They get useless degrees, they have useless, make-work jobs, they create nothing with their relatively new-found equality and power. Everyone knows this. Elizabeth Holmes and other failures are the rule, not the exception, by the way.

    College-educated white females are well-nigh worthless because you get nothing productive out of them. No inventions, no engineering, they don't make decent wives, they don't have babies, they've come out with no great works of music. They scarf up their loans for their shitty degrees, they cause enormous grief everywhere they're employed, they've ruined our legislative processes EVERYWHERE and they are a net loss to society in every way shape and form, it's just never been calculated.

    I don't know HOW you calculate what blacks cost while ignoring the enormous drag, cost and societal destruction of Western-educated white females. I'd bet they are the bigger loads by far than blacks. By FAR.

    , @Boswald Bollocksworth
    @Almost Missouri

    Russia's demographics are really quite enviable imho. Yeah, maybe it's "only" 80%-85% Slavic nationalities, but the other groups are pretty much all cold weather farmers or pastoralists of one sort or another. Buryats, Tatars, Tuvans are all great assets to have in a country. How could anyone object to having these Asiatic girls who work at the Moscow McDonalds? It beats the hell out of having 20% archaic admixture tropical-blooded savages like the USA and now France are cursed with, and crippled by. Even Russia's kebab-eaters are relatively high IQ and have their uses. Russia was able to dispatch Chechen military police units to Syria, maybe useful for policing Sunni areas, or maybe I just fell for the propaganda. My point is, when you consider how bad human biological capital can be, and you look at Russia's portfolio, it looks fantastic frankly.

    Russia will solve the birth rate issue sooner or later. As a smart man says, media gives you root access to people's brains. The Russian state has root access to the brains of it's higher IQ women. It's just a matter of refining the meme cocktail to get TFR up to 3.0.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

  26. @Caspar Von Everec
    Population matters, only when you scale it up in consideration of bio-capital. Having a population of 100 million whites is a blessing, its what allowed the US to become a superpower after all. Having a population 100 million blacks is a curse.

    The entire 1.3 billion strong continent of Africa has contributed less to science, technology, art, culture and literature than the puny 17 million strong country of Holland. Even most of what passes for ''African'' intellectual output is mostly the product of whites living in Africa, mostly in South Africa.

    Having 100s of millions of low iq blacks, inbred arabs and sub-human dravidians is not a blessing. India for example should be a world power considering it has 120-180 million 110+ IQ brahmins. But the country despite 7 decades of independence and enlightened liberal rule has remained a backwater.

    It rarely produces elite science, its industrial productivity ages behind that of China and 60% of its population is still composed of penniless farmers and day laborers. The addition of hundreds of millions of dravidians to the population has only had a negative effect on India's fortunes.

    A lot of people seem to believe that the Brazilian favela society is a blueprint for success in the future. Particularly Richard Spencer and the FBI/Marxnats of twitter. Whites, Asians, Brahmins and Jews would rule over vast a negro-mestizoid population that does little other than manual labor and collect welfare checks.

    They reckon that such a society can still continue to be a superpower and produce elite science and maintain world class institutions. Its essentially official American policy as outlined by all the CIA-aligned think tanks like the Brookings institute.

    They'll import a billion salvadorians and Nigerians to keep a level footing with China and maintain a colossal GDP. While importing all of Nigeria may marginally improve GDP, it will catastrophically reduce state power.

    These populations contribute nothing to the increasingly cognitive economy where physical labor is more and more obsolete due to automation. They only commit crime, eat up the money of the productive population, exhaust natural resources, create squalor and generally bring the level of society down.

    The brahmins of India might've been a world superpower if they had a country exclusively for themselves. But since they have to live with australoids, the quality of the society collapses across the board. Corruption, incompetence, religious backwardness, violence, resource leeching and a general pervasiveness of low standards hemorrhage the country.

    Its the same with Brazil. Brazil has 5-10 million Germans, some 20 million North Italians and some 3 million Japanese.

    When looking at raw numbers of high iq populations, Brazil has a high intellect fraction of at least 30 million. So by all rights, their intellectual output should be greater or at least equal to that of Scandinavia. Yet, the reality could not be more different.

    I think its obvious that addition of low functioning populations drastically reduces the intellectual output and overall state power of a nation. After all, America in 1990 was far more functional and capable that America today. Even though it had a 100 million fewer people, it was 70-75% white. At that age, general competence and power projection were far greater.

    Today America has the same number of whites but only at 56%. Consequently, America today is far less functional and has far less of an ability to project power than before.

    I think there should be some study into this matter as to how much a low IQ population reduces the overall state power of a country.

    There should also be some efforts to make a list of countries by biocapital, i.e how much useful population does a country have? Holland has a 12th of Nigeria's population, but it has vastly more useful people that can contribute positively to cvilization and state power.

    My rough ranking would be:

    1. China
    2. United States
    3. Japan
    4. India/Germany
    6. Britain
    7. Russia
    8. France
    9. Italy
    10. Indonesia/Brazil.

    Replies: @Caspar Von Everec, @reiner Tor, @Svevlad, @Almost Missouri, @Gorgeous George, @Some Guy, @SZ, @AlexanderGrozny, @Boomthorkell, @James N. Kennett, @Ron Unz

    Amazing input. This deserves more than just a “thanks”.

    I think there should be some study into this matter as to how much a low IQ population reduces the overall state power of a country.

    I wish, but doing something like that would be flagged as racist.

  27. I used to spend way too much time pouring over statistics

    I never stopped.

    2020

    Pakistan 225,200,000

    Philippines 110,141,154

    Vietnam 97,580,000

    Thailand 66,639,342

    South Africa 59,622,350

    Myanmar 55,294,979

    Argentina 45,808,747

    Algeria 44,700,000

    Malaysia 32,767,930

    Nepal 30,378,055

    Sri Lanka 21,919,000

    Kazakhstan 18,914,096

    Zimbabwe 15,790,716

    Cambodia 15,552,211

    Rwanda 12,955,768

    Haiti 11,743,017

    Israel 9,342,700

    Papua New Guinea 9,122,994

    Lebanon 6,769,000

    [MORE]

    I love Wikipedia, makes it so easy.

  28. @Almost Missouri
    @Caspar Von Everec

    Yeah, the gross numbers Anatoly uses are a starting point, but he could do something like his CMP-type adjustments to them. For example, he has the USA at 320m or 330m (probably actually about 350m with all the illegals), but only about 200m are the white people who are what most think of as what makes the USA the USA. Still, that's the largest number of white people ever in one nation-state. (And since that number is peaking now, it may be the largest number that there ever will be, unless Russia can win the long game.)

    Similarly, he has Russia at 145m, but only, what, 100m are actual Russians? Still, 100m is the second most white people ever under one flag, and if Russia can overcome near-term fertility problems, it is not boxed in to an ideological/structural dead end like the US is. So Russia may have good prospects in the long term, if it can solve the short term.

    France at 65m, but maybe only 45m of those are actually French, while the rest are mostly imported bulk filler. Germany at 82m, but probably only 70m actual Germans (still third most whites under one flag). The French have had about a century long paranoia about their weak demographics compared to Germany. After WWI France was (justly) worried about Germany's 3:2 demographic advantage (and 5:2 in the coming draft-age cohort). So their post-WWII solution was to bulk up with a lot of foreigners, especially Arabs and Africans. Ironically, this solution to the threat of German demographic overbearance has simply created a greater threat of internal xeno-ethnic overbearance. Meanwhile the actual threat from Germany has dropped to approximately zero. On paper, France can congratulate itself on having chiseled Germany's demo advantage down to 5:4, but strip away the filler and the ratio is still the same old 3:2, and now France has imported a huge semi-hostile underclass to achieve this paper parity. So France now suffers a much bigger internal threat as a result of trying to solve an external problem that no longer exists.

    So what would be the Capital coefficient to the Labor factor à la CMP? Well, The Alternative Hypothesis guy did a good back-of-the-envelope on net tax contributions (i.e., raw contribution to state capacity) of different US ethnes. Basically, each US Hispanic, on average, cancels out the tax contribution of one US white or US Asian, while each US black cancels out the tax contribution of two US whites/Asians. So viewed this way, the actual demographic heft of the USA adjusted for ethne is 215m whites+Asians minus 50m Hispanics minus 40m (×2) blacks equals 85m net white equivalents (and sinking). So Russia and Germany suddenly look pretty competitive. Of course a similar (though less devastating) calculation could also be performed for each of them, perhaps using ethic IQ to size the contribution/detraction to state capacity. Germany, for example, would probably be something like 70m white Germans minus 12m Turks/Kurds etc. equals 58m net white equivalents. Russia would be a little trickier since the Russian whites are arguably not quite as valuable to the state as the US or German whites, and the non-Russian minorities are a more disparate melange.

    Replies: @Caspar von Everec, @reiner Tor, @songbird, @Jim Christian, @Boswald Bollocksworth

    Excellent idea on ”substracting” blacks and hispanics from whites and Asians in the US. I’d add that 72 million out 80 million German population is actually white. The number of Germans is probably something of the order of 64 million.

    As far as France, the white population is about 51-54 million. France has had extensive european migration, primarily from Italy and Spain for the last two centuries. The percentage of actual French, i.e Gauls, Bretons, Franks and Occitan is a mystery. Though I read an estimate that its about 40 million or so.

    So yes, the Germans still have that 1.5:1 advantage over the French.

    Russia is far better off that it seems. Its roughly 85% white when you count Russians, Ukrainians, Germans and Greeks. That amounts to some 124 million people. Its diversity isn’t that toxic either. The largest minority is Volga tatar who have an IQ near identical to Russians and is genetically about 70-80% Slavic.

    Other minorities like Tajiks, Udmurts and other eccentric groups are nowhere near as toxic as American Blacks, and to a much lesser extent, hispanics.

    The American hispanic contingent is a mixed bag. Around half of it is Castizo supposedly, 75% white(mostly Iberian) people that identify as hispanic for the diversity points. They are borderline white.

    I think if you count only the mestizos or Amerindians, the net tax impact will be far worse.

    Japan also has significant human capital, as does Korea.

    But China probably has more human capital and ”effective population” than the rest of the world combined. 1.3 Billion 105 iq Han Chinese.

    There are a lot of fantastic narratives about Germans or Britons trying to conquer the world or America or the USSR overrunning the planet. None of them ever had the human capital to do it.

    China however has the potential to be strong that they could take on and defeat the rest of the world combined and truly conquer and subjugate the whole planet. The CCP for its part however, has not been too successful in harnessing this potential.

    China’s technological or scientific prowess is still behind the US and its achievements in culture and architecture is nothing to write home about. Though this could change in the coming future. My guess is that the CCP impedes China’s true potential by piling on marxist baggage.

    If the CCP reformed and dropped marxism altogether and became a full on national socialist state which glorified and promoted Chinese history, tradition and religion instead of suppressing it, it might achieve far greater wonders

    • Replies: @Shango
    @Caspar von Everec

    They are still suppressing their history, religion, and traditions?

    , @Almost Missouri
    @Caspar von Everec


    Excellent idea on ”substracting” blacks and hispanics from whites and Asians in the US.
     
    The "fulcrum point" IQ for citizenship in a modern nation-state seems to be around 95. Above that you can nation-build. Below that and you can only stave off fissiparous collapse through various illiberal means.

    I’d add that 72 million out 80 million German population is actually white. The number of Germans is probably something of the order of 64 million.
     
    Thanks. So 8 million Slavs, Balkans, Italics, non-German Germanics (Swiss, Austrian, Dutch, Scandi)? Any idea what the non-German white composition is?

    As far as France, the white population is about 51-54 million. France has had extensive european migration, primarily from Italy and Spain for the last two centuries. The percentage of actual French, i.e Gauls, Bretons, Franks and Occitan is a mystery. Though I read an estimate that its about 40 million or so.
     
    Yeah, France is deliberately ethnic-obscurantist. Though I would count two-century old Latin immigrants as effectively French now. 11-14 million of those? That leaves another 11-14 million Arabs/Africans. That doesn't seem quite so bad as I've been hearing ... but then, higher birthrates.

    Russia is far better off that it seems. Its roughly 85% white when you count Russians, Ukrainians, Germans and Greeks. That amounts to some 124 million people. Its diversity isn’t that toxic either. The largest minority is Volga tatar who have an IQ near identical to Russians and is genetically about 70-80% Slavic.
     
    Thanks. These kinds of subtleties are the reason that I didn't venture to calculate Russia.

    The American hispanic contingent is a mixed bag. Around half of it is Castizo supposedly, 75% white(mostly Iberian) people that identify as hispanic for the diversity points. They are borderline white.
     
    Yes, "Hispanics" is bastard category peculiar to the US. It's nominally based on language (although many "Hispanics" don't actually speak Spanish) and mixes higher caste Cubans and South Americans with lower caste Central Americans, plus Dominicans and Puerto Ricans muddying things further. It is a lousy theoretical categorization, but in practice it tracks pretty well between whites and blacks.

    Japan also has significant human capital, as does Korea.

     

    Agree. On paper Japan should be more powerful than the US, though the East Asians punch above their weight compared to everyone else, they still punch somewhat below their weight compared to Europeans. OTOH, the Japanese and Koreans are on some of the most resource-poor real estate in the world.

    China however has the potential to be strong that they could take on and defeat the rest of the world combined and truly conquer and subjugate the whole planet.
     
    Yes, China is the sleeping dragon: the largest high-IQ mono-ethne in a unitary nation-state. On paper, they should be wiping the floor with the rest of us. Maybe they will, eventually.

    The CCP for its part however, has not been too successful in harnessing this potential.
     
    Well, compared to the famine-wracked dystopia of a couple generations ago, they're not doing too badly, and unlike the West, they are still on an upward trajectory.

    Replies: @Svevlad, @Pumblechook, @Caspar Von Everec

  29. @Felix Keverich
    @reiner Tor

    The idea that “going east means poorer” doesn't come from any particular data set, but from Hungarians' very own deep, emotional feeling inferiority vs Western Europe. "mental models of reality" are contructed to support this emotional state. Data that contradicts the emotion is disregarded.

    Inferiority complex itself is a product of Western-centric worldview, and thus correlates with pro-Western politics. It's most present in Eastern European liberals and svidomy types, which is basically Hungarian political spectrum. Russian vatniks are not afflicted by it. Vatniks are emotionally healthier individuals.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @reiner Tor, @AP

    Inferiority complex itself is a product of Western-centric worldview, and thus correlates with pro-Western politics. It’s most present in Eastern European liberals and svidomy types, which is basically Hungarian political spectrum. Russian vatniks are not afflicted by it. Vatniks are emotionally healthier individuals.

    Then you must be something else, not a vatnik, because you seem to harbor deep insecurities yourself. Chill out dude, Hungary is like 7% the size of Russia (in terms of population), you don’t need to care so deeply about what Hungarians think.

    The idea that “going east means poorer” doesn’t come from any particular data set

    Well within Hungary it’s certainly true that the westernmost big cities like Szombathely, Sopron or Győr are significantly richer than the easternmost big cities like Miskolc, Debrecen, Szeged or Nyíregyháza. Of our neighbors the westernmost one, Austria is also by far the richest. The easternmost Ukraine is the poorest. Slovakia to the north (in between the two) is in between in terms of wealth as well. Of our southern neighbors Austria is richer than Slovenia, which is richer than Croatia, which is richer than Serbia and Romania, which are both richer than Ukraine, so the only exception to the rule is Romania being richer than Serbia. But even there it wasn’t true before the early 1990s.

    • Replies: @Bies Podkrakowski
    @reiner Tor


    Chill out dude, Hungary is like 7% the size of Russia (in terms of population), you don’t need to care so deeply about what Hungarians think.
     
    Russia needs to be loved. So even small Hungary counts.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    , @AP
    @reiner Tor


    The easternmost Ukraine is the poorest.
     
    The Republics - probably. It has seen an economic collapse because the war has destroyed much of it. Luhansk is now well below average, but what is left of Donetsk is doing well. During later Soviet and post-Soviet times, easternmost Ukraine was once the richest, other than Kiev of course. But this was because it had coal which led to steel, the greatest source for the country's hard currency, and was heavily invested by the Soviets. Not because the East was more highly developed or educated. It was analogous to some African region being blessed with a lot of oil. Intact eastern parts such as what is left of Donetsk oblast (Mariupol) continue to be wealthy by Ukrainian standards.

    Until Maidan, Zakarpatiya was the poorest region in Ukraine. Its neighbor Chernivtsi is now the second poorest province in Ukraine.

    In the 19th century, Galicia was about 20% wealthier than Russia (per capita Galician GDP in 1890 was $1,947 in 2010 dollars, versus $1,550 in Russia); it was also wealthier than the Balkans, and Portugal. From 1995-2000, Ukraine's per capita GDP in 2010 dollars was lower than Galicia's in 1890!

    Here are Ukrainian wages in summer 2019 - they have increased since then, probably more in the West than in the East:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f6/AverageMonthlySalary2019.png

    Poorest region is Kherson in the South, followed by Chernivtsi in the Southwest. Zakarpatiya is above average in terms of wages.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @reiner Tor

    , @Kazan
    @reiner Tor

    Claiming Felix or russians in general have some inferiority complex with true Europeans is laughable, and I'm not sure the same can be said of Hungarians to Germans:

    1. Our football fans beating the sh*t out of Anglo thugs in Euro 2016

    2. With the Americans and anglos we are among the biggest travellers/tourists on the planet. We go to the west, and show zero inclination to stay there after holiday. Even our guys in Karelia who cross the border into Finland all the time don't show any Inferiority complex.

    3. This is maybe even more obvious in Kaliningrad where our guys do plenty of food shopping and visits to neighbouring EU states, but show f**k all interest in staying there. The depopulation stats for Kaliningrad are far less ( actually I think the population increases) than for the majority of russian regions,despite the easier chance of moving to the EU - so your inferiority theory is BS.

    4. The population of Hungary would be about 243 if they had the same climatic extremities as in Russia

    5. Russians are probably the proudest and most secure in their culture of any people's on the planet. Can Hungarians claim any of that, particularly with the German influence?

    As for "living conditions superior in Hungary, except for Muscovites" - Moscow is 20 million people, SP 5 million, Kazan far higher living standards, Krasnoyarsk, Ufa, Krasnodar, Lipetsk, Tyumen, Yekaterinburg, Sochi and many other places with a population dwarfing that of Hungary that have a superior ( OK let's be diplomatic and say equal) standard of living.

    Replies: @AP, @Manfrog

    , @Beckow
    @reiner Tor

    The geography of wealth is only partially on east-to-west or south-to-north vectors. It has more to do with how close a region is to the center of the prevailing economic power.

    In Europe wealth peaks in the economic core of London-Benelux-Paris-Lyon-Switzerland-northern Italy and western Germany. That core has been more developed and richer for centuries. At times more marginal regions like Midlands, Berlin-Silesia, even Vienna-Prague-Budapest caught up, but that was driven by local specifics and long periods of peace. There are exceptions (e.g. Stockholm) but in general a region's wealth based on how close it is to the European core area.

    Inside countries we see the same dynamic on a smaller scale: Subcarpathia has always been remote from the center - today Kiev, but before Prague-Budapest-Vienna, Western Hungary, e.g. Gyor (great city) is closer to the European core region, to Vienna and Budapest. Prague dominates Czechia, the south-west Slovakia around is 2.5 times richer than the east. It is also true about Moscow in Russia, Chinese east coast cities.

    This reflects a little appreciated core attribute of wealth: wealth is what the powerful people say it is. Powers tend to live in geographic centers and are able to produce or assign wealth. Lately often only as fiat wealth; they declare that something, some note, are valuable and the rest of the world follows. It could be low self-esteem or simple conformity, but people follow and validate the central wealth creators. And the core prospers.


    The point of this post was how people use obsolete data in their mental models of reality.
     
    That makes change hard. But change happens, over time realities on the ground prevail, virtual models are discarded and people rediscover that wealth is what they can consume in their lives, what is available to them - more or less physically. At that point centers often collapse and mental models readjust. In the meantime living well and using simple arbitrage to game the flaws in the prevailing mental models is probably the best individual strategy.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon

  30. @Felix Keverich
    @reiner Tor

    The idea that “going east means poorer” doesn't come from any particular data set, but from Hungarians' very own deep, emotional feeling inferiority vs Western Europe. "mental models of reality" are contructed to support this emotional state. Data that contradicts the emotion is disregarded.

    Inferiority complex itself is a product of Western-centric worldview, and thus correlates with pro-Western politics. It's most present in Eastern European liberals and svidomy types, which is basically Hungarian political spectrum. Russian vatniks are not afflicted by it. Vatniks are emotionally healthier individuals.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @reiner Tor, @AP

    Eastern European liberals and svidomy types, which is basically Hungarian political spectrum

    What does “svidomy” mean in a Hungarian context?

  31. @reiner Tor
    @Caspar Von Everec


    Having a population 100 million blacks is a curse.
     
    I guess that for an African country having a bigger population still usually translates into bigger military power. Provided that it can avoid a civil war.

    Replies: @Caspar von Everec, @Hapalong Cassidy

    Well a country of 100 million should in theory be capable of mustering a 1 million strong army. However that’s far easier to do on paper than in reality. It takes an ungodly amount of logistical competence and efficiency to fully maintain and field such a force.

    Seeing Africa’s state capacity, the ability of their leaders to field such a force is practically nil. If anything such a large army could start fighting itself over inter tribal feuds.

    Nominally the Nigerian government rules over 200 million blacks but in reality they have littel control over most of them. Its borderline impossible to get a population as inbred and low iq like sub saharans to overcome tribal difference and act as a coherent national unit.

    Though they look like large compact blocks on the map, in reality African countries are divided into hundreds if not thousands of semi-autonomous tribes and sects.

    • Replies: @Wency
    @Caspar von Everec

    This seems about right. And the obvious point is that African countries haven't ever shown much ability to project power into one another. Ethiopia (not even an especially dysfunctional African state) couldn't keep or conquer Eritrea despite having a 10x or more population advantage.

    A point could be made that Nigeria has intervened in some civil wars, e.g. Sierra Leone, to apparent success. But I think that Nigeria's ability to project power is much more an effect of its petroleum revenues ($39bn in petroleum exports in 2019 is the stat I see) than its ability to tax a dirt-poor population.

    For a petrostate, it seems the population is basically a liability -- you have to spend money to keep them happy and yet they produce nothing of value. So why can't petrostates ever seem to control their population growth? I have to think the House of Saud would be in a more secure position if the population of its subjects hadn't skyrocketed.

    Replies: @A Literal Midget

  32. @Caspar von Everec
    @Almost Missouri

    Excellent idea on ''substracting'' blacks and hispanics from whites and Asians in the US. I'd add that 72 million out 80 million German population is actually white. The number of Germans is probably something of the order of 64 million.

    As far as France, the white population is about 51-54 million. France has had extensive european migration, primarily from Italy and Spain for the last two centuries. The percentage of actual French, i.e Gauls, Bretons, Franks and Occitan is a mystery. Though I read an estimate that its about 40 million or so.

    So yes, the Germans still have that 1.5:1 advantage over the French.

    Russia is far better off that it seems. Its roughly 85% white when you count Russians, Ukrainians, Germans and Greeks. That amounts to some 124 million people. Its diversity isn't that toxic either. The largest minority is Volga tatar who have an IQ near identical to Russians and is genetically about 70-80% Slavic.

    Other minorities like Tajiks, Udmurts and other eccentric groups are nowhere near as toxic as American Blacks, and to a much lesser extent, hispanics.

    The American hispanic contingent is a mixed bag. Around half of it is Castizo supposedly, 75% white(mostly Iberian) people that identify as hispanic for the diversity points. They are borderline white.

    I think if you count only the mestizos or Amerindians, the net tax impact will be far worse.

    Japan also has significant human capital, as does Korea.

    But China probably has more human capital and ''effective population'' than the rest of the world combined. 1.3 Billion 105 iq Han Chinese.

    There are a lot of fantastic narratives about Germans or Britons trying to conquer the world or America or the USSR overrunning the planet. None of them ever had the human capital to do it.

    China however has the potential to be strong that they could take on and defeat the rest of the world combined and truly conquer and subjugate the whole planet. The CCP for its part however, has not been too successful in harnessing this potential.

    China's technological or scientific prowess is still behind the US and its achievements in culture and architecture is nothing to write home about. Though this could change in the coming future. My guess is that the CCP impedes China's true potential by piling on marxist baggage.

    If the CCP reformed and dropped marxism altogether and became a full on national socialist state which glorified and promoted Chinese history, tradition and religion instead of suppressing it, it might achieve far greater wonders

    Replies: @Shango, @Almost Missouri

    They are still suppressing their history, religion, and traditions?

  33. @reiner Tor
    @Felix Keverich


    Inferiority complex itself is a product of Western-centric worldview, and thus correlates with pro-Western politics. It’s most present in Eastern European liberals and svidomy types, which is basically Hungarian political spectrum. Russian vatniks are not afflicted by it. Vatniks are emotionally healthier individuals.
     
    Then you must be something else, not a vatnik, because you seem to harbor deep insecurities yourself. Chill out dude, Hungary is like 7% the size of Russia (in terms of population), you don’t need to care so deeply about what Hungarians think.

    The idea that “going east means poorer” doesn’t come from any particular data set
     
    Well within Hungary it’s certainly true that the westernmost big cities like Szombathely, Sopron or Győr are significantly richer than the easternmost big cities like Miskolc, Debrecen, Szeged or Nyíregyháza. Of our neighbors the westernmost one, Austria is also by far the richest. The easternmost Ukraine is the poorest. Slovakia to the north (in between the two) is in between in terms of wealth as well. Of our southern neighbors Austria is richer than Slovenia, which is richer than Croatia, which is richer than Serbia and Romania, which are both richer than Ukraine, so the only exception to the rule is Romania being richer than Serbia. But even there it wasn’t true before the early 1990s.

    Replies: @Bies Podkrakowski, @AP, @Kazan, @Beckow

    Chill out dude, Hungary is like 7% the size of Russia (in terms of population), you don’t need to care so deeply about what Hungarians think.

    Russia needs to be loved. So even small Hungary counts.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @Bies Podkrakowski

    Sad! Many such cases.

    Replies: @A Literal Midget

  34. @Svevlad
    @Caspar Von Everec

    Funnily enough, it's the Dravidian states in India that are the richer, more productive and high IQ.

    The entire muh Aryan north Indians is some west European pseud cope because they jack off to le ebin powerful Yamnaya chariot riders despite the fact that the Indians adopted an Indo-European language simply out of convenience because they probably had some New Guinea type every other village is it's own language family type situation, and the Indo-Europeans in the area were more like a service minority with a monopoly on transport of goods and services because they were "netural" and nomadic

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @DNS, @Caspar Von Everec

    Funnily enough, it’s the Dravidian states in India that are the richer, more productive and high IQ.

    Correct, but North was for a very, very long time ruled by Muslims, unlike the South.

    • Agree: Vishnugupta
    • Replies: @CCG
    @AltanBakshi

    The Assamese in the North-East were never under Muslim rule, but today the average Assamese is economically behind the average Indian.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @RadicalCenter

  35. @Almost Missouri
    @Caspar Von Everec

    Yeah, the gross numbers Anatoly uses are a starting point, but he could do something like his CMP-type adjustments to them. For example, he has the USA at 320m or 330m (probably actually about 350m with all the illegals), but only about 200m are the white people who are what most think of as what makes the USA the USA. Still, that's the largest number of white people ever in one nation-state. (And since that number is peaking now, it may be the largest number that there ever will be, unless Russia can win the long game.)

    Similarly, he has Russia at 145m, but only, what, 100m are actual Russians? Still, 100m is the second most white people ever under one flag, and if Russia can overcome near-term fertility problems, it is not boxed in to an ideological/structural dead end like the US is. So Russia may have good prospects in the long term, if it can solve the short term.

    France at 65m, but maybe only 45m of those are actually French, while the rest are mostly imported bulk filler. Germany at 82m, but probably only 70m actual Germans (still third most whites under one flag). The French have had about a century long paranoia about their weak demographics compared to Germany. After WWI France was (justly) worried about Germany's 3:2 demographic advantage (and 5:2 in the coming draft-age cohort). So their post-WWII solution was to bulk up with a lot of foreigners, especially Arabs and Africans. Ironically, this solution to the threat of German demographic overbearance has simply created a greater threat of internal xeno-ethnic overbearance. Meanwhile the actual threat from Germany has dropped to approximately zero. On paper, France can congratulate itself on having chiseled Germany's demo advantage down to 5:4, but strip away the filler and the ratio is still the same old 3:2, and now France has imported a huge semi-hostile underclass to achieve this paper parity. So France now suffers a much bigger internal threat as a result of trying to solve an external problem that no longer exists.

    So what would be the Capital coefficient to the Labor factor à la CMP? Well, The Alternative Hypothesis guy did a good back-of-the-envelope on net tax contributions (i.e., raw contribution to state capacity) of different US ethnes. Basically, each US Hispanic, on average, cancels out the tax contribution of one US white or US Asian, while each US black cancels out the tax contribution of two US whites/Asians. So viewed this way, the actual demographic heft of the USA adjusted for ethne is 215m whites+Asians minus 50m Hispanics minus 40m (×2) blacks equals 85m net white equivalents (and sinking). So Russia and Germany suddenly look pretty competitive. Of course a similar (though less devastating) calculation could also be performed for each of them, perhaps using ethic IQ to size the contribution/detraction to state capacity. Germany, for example, would probably be something like 70m white Germans minus 12m Turks/Kurds etc. equals 58m net white equivalents. Russia would be a little trickier since the Russian whites are arguably not quite as valuable to the state as the US or German whites, and the non-Russian minorities are a more disparate melange.

    Replies: @Caspar von Everec, @reiner Tor, @songbird, @Jim Christian, @Boswald Bollocksworth

    he has Russia at 145m, but only, what, 100m are actual Russians?

    More like 115m.

  36. @TG
    I'm sorry, but equating raw population numbers with military or economic power is so profoundly stupid I don't know where to start.

    In the 19th century, China - a country about the same size as the United States - had about four times the population. But the post-frontier low-fertility rate United States had developed high per-capita wealth, and China at the time was just a mass of malnourished peasants wallowing in the mud. Who do you think was the stronger nation? Of course the United States - 19th century China was a geopolitical weakling easily bullied by relatively tiny nations with well-fed and well-equipped militaries.

    A million desperate malnourished peasants, a billion, who cares? If all they can do is barely stay alive, they are not capable of projecting power of any kind.

    Russia today has fewer people than Nigeria - and if the Russians really cared (they don't) they could conquer Nigeria with hardly a second thought.

    Yes all other things being equal, God is on the side of the bigger battalions. But all other things are not always equal, and just breeding like rats without any consideration of resources or infrastructure etc. historically does not lead to supremacy but to poverty and corruption and stangation and weakness.

    Replies: @Max Payne, @Svevlad, @Mr. Cracker, @Anatoly Karlin, @Seraphim

    You should read the first paragraph of the article again.

  37. Karlin not including Crimea here to make Russia’s population 147 million.

    For some on here that could be problematic and unsurprising.

    • Replies: @Spisarevski
    @Kazan


    Karlin not including Crimea here to make Russia’s population 147 million.
     
    He probably included it, but rounded the 143.7 mil number to 143 (population without Crimea) and the 2.4 mil Crimean population to 2 million, so 145 even though it should be above 146 and with migrants and whatnot it can be rounded to 147.
  38. @Bies Podkrakowski
    @reiner Tor


    Chill out dude, Hungary is like 7% the size of Russia (in terms of population), you don’t need to care so deeply about what Hungarians think.
     
    Russia needs to be loved. So even small Hungary counts.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    Sad! Many such cases.

    • Replies: @A Literal Midget
    @reiner Tor

    I wasn't around for the 1990s, so indulge me, please:

    To what extent was there an "At least we're not Russia" (or outright "Get fucked, Russia") attitude amongst the Warsaw Pact countries after the collapse of the Soviet Union?

    It seems to me that there would be a fair bit of schadenfreude at Russia's fall from dominant Soviet power to a third-world shithole after the Union's disintegration, especially if the former WP countries were concurrently being welcomed into "the West".

    This would, in turn, create an inferiority complex amongst some Russians, which is now being vented - i.e. resolved - due to yet another reversal of fortune (Russia's economic rise).

    This would explain a fair few of the "many such cases", but I'm curious as to how grounded my theory is in reality.

    Replies: @AP

  39. @Caspar von Everec
    @Almost Missouri

    Excellent idea on ''substracting'' blacks and hispanics from whites and Asians in the US. I'd add that 72 million out 80 million German population is actually white. The number of Germans is probably something of the order of 64 million.

    As far as France, the white population is about 51-54 million. France has had extensive european migration, primarily from Italy and Spain for the last two centuries. The percentage of actual French, i.e Gauls, Bretons, Franks and Occitan is a mystery. Though I read an estimate that its about 40 million or so.

    So yes, the Germans still have that 1.5:1 advantage over the French.

    Russia is far better off that it seems. Its roughly 85% white when you count Russians, Ukrainians, Germans and Greeks. That amounts to some 124 million people. Its diversity isn't that toxic either. The largest minority is Volga tatar who have an IQ near identical to Russians and is genetically about 70-80% Slavic.

    Other minorities like Tajiks, Udmurts and other eccentric groups are nowhere near as toxic as American Blacks, and to a much lesser extent, hispanics.

    The American hispanic contingent is a mixed bag. Around half of it is Castizo supposedly, 75% white(mostly Iberian) people that identify as hispanic for the diversity points. They are borderline white.

    I think if you count only the mestizos or Amerindians, the net tax impact will be far worse.

    Japan also has significant human capital, as does Korea.

    But China probably has more human capital and ''effective population'' than the rest of the world combined. 1.3 Billion 105 iq Han Chinese.

    There are a lot of fantastic narratives about Germans or Britons trying to conquer the world or America or the USSR overrunning the planet. None of them ever had the human capital to do it.

    China however has the potential to be strong that they could take on and defeat the rest of the world combined and truly conquer and subjugate the whole planet. The CCP for its part however, has not been too successful in harnessing this potential.

    China's technological or scientific prowess is still behind the US and its achievements in culture and architecture is nothing to write home about. Though this could change in the coming future. My guess is that the CCP impedes China's true potential by piling on marxist baggage.

    If the CCP reformed and dropped marxism altogether and became a full on national socialist state which glorified and promoted Chinese history, tradition and religion instead of suppressing it, it might achieve far greater wonders

    Replies: @Shango, @Almost Missouri

    Excellent idea on ”substracting” blacks and hispanics from whites and Asians in the US.

    The “fulcrum point” IQ for citizenship in a modern nation-state seems to be around 95. Above that you can nation-build. Below that and you can only stave off fissiparous collapse through various illiberal means.

    I’d add that 72 million out 80 million German population is actually white. The number of Germans is probably something of the order of 64 million.

    Thanks. So 8 million Slavs, Balkans, Italics, non-German Germanics (Swiss, Austrian, Dutch, Scandi)? Any idea what the non-German white composition is?

    As far as France, the white population is about 51-54 million. France has had extensive european migration, primarily from Italy and Spain for the last two centuries. The percentage of actual French, i.e Gauls, Bretons, Franks and Occitan is a mystery. Though I read an estimate that its about 40 million or so.

    Yeah, France is deliberately ethnic-obscurantist. Though I would count two-century old Latin immigrants as effectively French now. 11-14 million of those? That leaves another 11-14 million Arabs/Africans. That doesn’t seem quite so bad as I’ve been hearing … but then, higher birthrates.

    Russia is far better off that it seems. Its roughly 85% white when you count Russians, Ukrainians, Germans and Greeks. That amounts to some 124 million people. Its diversity isn’t that toxic either. The largest minority is Volga tatar who have an IQ near identical to Russians and is genetically about 70-80% Slavic.

    Thanks. These kinds of subtleties are the reason that I didn’t venture to calculate Russia.

    The American hispanic contingent is a mixed bag. Around half of it is Castizo supposedly, 75% white(mostly Iberian) people that identify as hispanic for the diversity points. They are borderline white.

    Yes, “Hispanics” is bastard category peculiar to the US. It’s nominally based on language (although many “Hispanics” don’t actually speak Spanish) and mixes higher caste Cubans and South Americans with lower caste Central Americans, plus Dominicans and Puerto Ricans muddying things further. It is a lousy theoretical categorization, but in practice it tracks pretty well between whites and blacks.

    Japan also has significant human capital, as does Korea.

    Agree. On paper Japan should be more powerful than the US, though the East Asians punch above their weight compared to everyone else, they still punch somewhat below their weight compared to Europeans. OTOH, the Japanese and Koreans are on some of the most resource-poor real estate in the world.

    China however has the potential to be strong that they could take on and defeat the rest of the world combined and truly conquer and subjugate the whole planet.

    Yes, China is the sleeping dragon: the largest high-IQ mono-ethne in a unitary nation-state. On paper, they should be wiping the floor with the rest of us. Maybe they will, eventually.

    The CCP for its part however, has not been too successful in harnessing this potential.

    Well, compared to the famine-wracked dystopia of a couple generations ago, they’re not doing too badly, and unlike the West, they are still on an upward trajectory.

    • Replies: @Svevlad
    @Almost Missouri

    East Asia in general is a dump resource wise. It's only good a s a giant labor pool to be unleashed

    , @Pumblechook
    @Almost Missouri

    Yes, I’d peg France at around 10 million Afro-Arabs (from Malagasy to Moroccans to Caribbeans), maybe even a little less.

    But that’s still an enormous quantity - and indeed, higher birth rates mean this group (including second generation) probably accounts for 175k-200k of the annual 725k births. Everything isn’t so black and white though, to pardon the pun - there is a large and growing mixed population in France, I know people in the following categories and all of them pass as European and are people you would want to help build a country in terms of behaviour and intelligence:

    - Breton/Kabyle
    - Berber/southern french
    - Malagasy/Italian

    Agree with the previous commenter that both Russia and the US aren’t as bad as they seem on paper due to groups like ‘Hispanics’ and ‘Tatars’ being more nuanced than most people realise

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @melanf, @128

    , @Caspar Von Everec
    @Almost Missouri

    Most white immigrants in Germany are slavs. IIRC, 2-3 million poles, 2 million Russians, 2 million Balkan slavs and several million people from the rest of the EU(Spaniards, Greeks, Italians, Romanians etc).

    Its ironic. Hitler once invaded the east to defend Germany from the slavic hordes, yet today, slavs are the only thing keeping Germany from being as terrible as France. They are now the most welcome guests

  40. @AltanBakshi
    @Svevlad


    Funnily enough, it’s the Dravidian states in India that are the richer, more productive and high IQ.
     
    Correct, but North was for a very, very long time ruled by Muslims, unlike the South.

    Replies: @CCG

    The Assamese in the North-East were never under Muslim rule, but today the average Assamese is economically behind the average Indian.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @CCG

    Nothing is caused by just by one reason alone, similarly the Muslim rule is not the only reason for the backwardness of the North, but it is clearly a major or main reason for it. There are parallels in Europe, where for most of the 20th century those regions, which were longest ruled by Ottomans, were the poorest ones.

    Nepal too has never been under a direct Islamic rule, but on average it's more backwards than India, but both Nepal and Assam have a very harsh geography, not long time ago almost all of Assam was jungle, full of malaria, and Nepal's geography is even harsher, full of mountains and hills, oh and not forgetting the malaria that plagued Terai or the southern half of Nepal.

    Still there's even more important factor explaining these matters for Assam and Nepal, both lands are peripheries of Indo-Gangetic plain, therefore the flow of inventions and products is from the heartland to periphery, if the heartland is sick, or under an anti-scientific regime, there will be less new innovations and trends flowing to periphery. Scandinavia is a periphery of Europe, Assam and Nepal were peripheries of Muslim ruled Hindustan, therefore one can't make any rules based on the examples of some remote peripheral countries. Even before the Muslim rule, the economy of ancient Assam, or Kamarupa, was intimately tied with the Bengal, same with Nepal and Gangetic plain. What would happen to Wales if England would become Islamic, and Wales would continue as an independent and Christian Welsh state and such situation would continue for 700-800 years? I don't know, but maybe pondering such questions will give you some perspective?

    Replies: @CCG

    , @RadicalCenter
    @CCG

    But their tea is wonderful and strong.

  41. Hah, this post made me laugh, for this is an activity I too have wasted too much time on. It got worse when I discovered the Angus Maddison dataset around 2010, because now there were historical stats I considered it important to memorize as well.

    For instance, Ukraine is probably around 35M now, but “mental image” is still at 45M or so.

    That’s one country I’ve consistently gotten wrong (and also consistently never cared much about). For some reason, I’ve always had it stuck in my head that it was 40 million even when its official figure was 50 million. Whenever I’d see the official figure, I’d be surprised it was so high, only to quickly once again forget it and go back to 40 million.

  42. @reiner Tor
    My parents had a world atlas from the early 1970s, and I was reading the wildly out of date datasets and looking at the out of date maps for a long time.

    Replies: @silviosilver

    My parents had a world atlas from the early 1970s, and I was reading the wildly out of date datasets and looking at the out of date maps for a long time.

    As a kid, I had a set of Funk and Wagnall’s encyclopedias (deliberately mispronounced fuckin’ wagnalls, of course) from the early 80s, making them already somewhat outdated by the time I got stuck into them in the early 90s. But it really annoyed me that I’d come across entries saying things like “the population in 1973 was xxx,xxx.” I’d think, shit, aren’t these people experts, is it really so hard for them to get more up to date information? Whatever the deleterious sociocultural effects of the “digital age” (growing more worrisome to me with each passing year), I’ll always be grateful to the internet for doing away with this particular problem.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • LOL: GazaPlanet
  43. @Kazan
    Karlin not including Crimea here to make Russia's population 147 million.

    For some on here that could be problematic and unsurprising.

    Replies: @Spisarevski

    Karlin not including Crimea here to make Russia’s population 147 million.

    He probably included it, but rounded the 143.7 mil number to 143 (population without Crimea) and the 2.4 mil Crimean population to 2 million, so 145 even though it should be above 146 and with migrants and whatnot it can be rounded to 147.

  44. @Felix Keverich
    @reiner Tor

    The idea that “going east means poorer” doesn't come from any particular data set, but from Hungarians' very own deep, emotional feeling inferiority vs Western Europe. "mental models of reality" are contructed to support this emotional state. Data that contradicts the emotion is disregarded.

    Inferiority complex itself is a product of Western-centric worldview, and thus correlates with pro-Western politics. It's most present in Eastern European liberals and svidomy types, which is basically Hungarian political spectrum. Russian vatniks are not afflicted by it. Vatniks are emotionally healthier individuals.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @reiner Tor, @AP

    The idea that “going east means poorer” doesn’t come from any particular data set

    Within both Hungary and Poland going East indeed means going poorer (with Warsaw being an exception for obvious reasons). Historically – at least, in the 19th and early 20th centuries, prior to Communism, Galicia was the wealthiest part of Ukraine while the Russian-ruled parts were poorer. And then of course, Poland and Hungary have been and continue to be poorer than Germany and Austria, yet richer than their eastern neighbors (Russia, Ukraine and Belarus).

    The fact that you deny these obvious facts suggests that you, not the realistic eastern and central Europeans, have some emotional issues regarding inferiority vis a vis Western Europe.

  45. @TG
    I'm sorry, but equating raw population numbers with military or economic power is so profoundly stupid I don't know where to start.

    In the 19th century, China - a country about the same size as the United States - had about four times the population. But the post-frontier low-fertility rate United States had developed high per-capita wealth, and China at the time was just a mass of malnourished peasants wallowing in the mud. Who do you think was the stronger nation? Of course the United States - 19th century China was a geopolitical weakling easily bullied by relatively tiny nations with well-fed and well-equipped militaries.

    A million desperate malnourished peasants, a billion, who cares? If all they can do is barely stay alive, they are not capable of projecting power of any kind.

    Russia today has fewer people than Nigeria - and if the Russians really cared (they don't) they could conquer Nigeria with hardly a second thought.

    Yes all other things being equal, God is on the side of the bigger battalions. But all other things are not always equal, and just breeding like rats without any consideration of resources or infrastructure etc. historically does not lead to supremacy but to poverty and corruption and stangation and weakness.

    Replies: @Max Payne, @Svevlad, @Mr. Cracker, @Anatoly Karlin, @Seraphim

    That indeed seems to be a pretty stupid take. Good thing I didn’t make it.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @TG
    @Anatoly Karlin

    "Population is power, so it pays to keep track of it (along with national IQ and GDPcc), for those with an interest in geopolitics and futurism."

    What did I miss? Yes you qualified it - national IQ and GDPcc - but the raw statement that population is power is so wrong that even later qualifications don't do.

    Power is the net productive capacity of a society in excess of subsistence, coupled not so much with mean intelligence (except perhaps negatively at the lower extremes), and with a work ethic, respect for the rule of law, and sense of common interest especially amongst the elites.

  46. @CCG
    @AltanBakshi

    The Assamese in the North-East were never under Muslim rule, but today the average Assamese is economically behind the average Indian.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @RadicalCenter

    Nothing is caused by just by one reason alone, similarly the Muslim rule is not the only reason for the backwardness of the North, but it is clearly a major or main reason for it. There are parallels in Europe, where for most of the 20th century those regions, which were longest ruled by Ottomans, were the poorest ones.

    Nepal too has never been under a direct Islamic rule, but on average it’s more backwards than India, but both Nepal and Assam have a very harsh geography, not long time ago almost all of Assam was jungle, full of malaria, and Nepal’s geography is even harsher, full of mountains and hills, oh and not forgetting the malaria that plagued Terai or the southern half of Nepal.

    Still there’s even more important factor explaining these matters for Assam and Nepal, both lands are peripheries of Indo-Gangetic plain, therefore the flow of inventions and products is from the heartland to periphery, if the heartland is sick, or under an anti-scientific regime, there will be less new innovations and trends flowing to periphery. Scandinavia is a periphery of Europe, Assam and Nepal were peripheries of Muslim ruled Hindustan, therefore one can’t make any rules based on the examples of some remote peripheral countries. Even before the Muslim rule, the economy of ancient Assam, or Kamarupa, was intimately tied with the Bengal, same with Nepal and Gangetic plain. What would happen to Wales if England would become Islamic, and Wales would continue as an independent and Christian Welsh state and such situation would continue for 700-800 years? I don’t know, but maybe pondering such questions will give you some perspective?

    • Agree: Vishnugupta, Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @CCG
    @AltanBakshi

    I think genetics makes all the difference. Asturias was a mountainous backwater that remained independent and Catholic, while the rest of Iberia came under Islamic rule. It was the periphery of the Iberian peninsula, but it became the launchpad for the Reconquista.

    Replies: @songbird, @AltanBakshi

  47. @reiner Tor
    @Felix Keverich


    Inferiority complex itself is a product of Western-centric worldview, and thus correlates with pro-Western politics. It’s most present in Eastern European liberals and svidomy types, which is basically Hungarian political spectrum. Russian vatniks are not afflicted by it. Vatniks are emotionally healthier individuals.
     
    Then you must be something else, not a vatnik, because you seem to harbor deep insecurities yourself. Chill out dude, Hungary is like 7% the size of Russia (in terms of population), you don’t need to care so deeply about what Hungarians think.

    The idea that “going east means poorer” doesn’t come from any particular data set
     
    Well within Hungary it’s certainly true that the westernmost big cities like Szombathely, Sopron or Győr are significantly richer than the easternmost big cities like Miskolc, Debrecen, Szeged or Nyíregyháza. Of our neighbors the westernmost one, Austria is also by far the richest. The easternmost Ukraine is the poorest. Slovakia to the north (in between the two) is in between in terms of wealth as well. Of our southern neighbors Austria is richer than Slovenia, which is richer than Croatia, which is richer than Serbia and Romania, which are both richer than Ukraine, so the only exception to the rule is Romania being richer than Serbia. But even there it wasn’t true before the early 1990s.

    Replies: @Bies Podkrakowski, @AP, @Kazan, @Beckow

    The easternmost Ukraine is the poorest.

    The Republics – probably. It has seen an economic collapse because the war has destroyed much of it. Luhansk is now well below average, but what is left of Donetsk is doing well. During later Soviet and post-Soviet times, easternmost Ukraine was once the richest, other than Kiev of course. But this was because it had coal which led to steel, the greatest source for the country’s hard currency, and was heavily invested by the Soviets. Not because the East was more highly developed or educated. It was analogous to some African region being blessed with a lot of oil. Intact eastern parts such as what is left of Donetsk oblast (Mariupol) continue to be wealthy by Ukrainian standards.

    Until Maidan, Zakarpatiya was the poorest region in Ukraine. Its neighbor Chernivtsi is now the second poorest province in Ukraine.

    In the 19th century, Galicia was about 20% wealthier than Russia (per capita Galician GDP in 1890 was $1,947 in 2010 dollars, versus $1,550 in Russia); it was also wealthier than the Balkans, and Portugal. From 1995-2000, Ukraine’s per capita GDP in 2010 dollars was lower than Galicia’s in 1890!

    Here are Ukrainian wages in summer 2019 – they have increased since then, probably more in the West than in the East:

    Poorest region is Kherson in the South, followed by Chernivtsi in the Southwest. Zakarpatiya is above average in terms of wages.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @AP



    The easternmost Ukraine is the poorest.
     
    The Republics – probably.
     
    You misunderstood, I meant that the easternmost neighbor, Ukraine, is the poorest neighbor of Hungary. Most Hungarians are aware of that (and like I said extrapolate from Subcarpathia), but they know next to nothing about the relative wealth of the different parts of Ukraine, they usually just assume (or did so in the 1990s) that it’s similar to Hungary, i.e. poorer in the east than in the west.
    , @reiner Tor
    @AP


    Zakarpatiya is above average in terms of wages.
     
    Now that’s a third recalibration of my internal model. I remember being surprised when I saw data which showed it to be poorer than average (I think it was around the time of the Orange Revolution), maybe I misremember something? Before that I had always just assumed that it was more developed than the rest.
  48. @Almost Missouri
    @Caspar Von Everec

    Yeah, the gross numbers Anatoly uses are a starting point, but he could do something like his CMP-type adjustments to them. For example, he has the USA at 320m or 330m (probably actually about 350m with all the illegals), but only about 200m are the white people who are what most think of as what makes the USA the USA. Still, that's the largest number of white people ever in one nation-state. (And since that number is peaking now, it may be the largest number that there ever will be, unless Russia can win the long game.)

    Similarly, he has Russia at 145m, but only, what, 100m are actual Russians? Still, 100m is the second most white people ever under one flag, and if Russia can overcome near-term fertility problems, it is not boxed in to an ideological/structural dead end like the US is. So Russia may have good prospects in the long term, if it can solve the short term.

    France at 65m, but maybe only 45m of those are actually French, while the rest are mostly imported bulk filler. Germany at 82m, but probably only 70m actual Germans (still third most whites under one flag). The French have had about a century long paranoia about their weak demographics compared to Germany. After WWI France was (justly) worried about Germany's 3:2 demographic advantage (and 5:2 in the coming draft-age cohort). So their post-WWII solution was to bulk up with a lot of foreigners, especially Arabs and Africans. Ironically, this solution to the threat of German demographic overbearance has simply created a greater threat of internal xeno-ethnic overbearance. Meanwhile the actual threat from Germany has dropped to approximately zero. On paper, France can congratulate itself on having chiseled Germany's demo advantage down to 5:4, but strip away the filler and the ratio is still the same old 3:2, and now France has imported a huge semi-hostile underclass to achieve this paper parity. So France now suffers a much bigger internal threat as a result of trying to solve an external problem that no longer exists.

    So what would be the Capital coefficient to the Labor factor à la CMP? Well, The Alternative Hypothesis guy did a good back-of-the-envelope on net tax contributions (i.e., raw contribution to state capacity) of different US ethnes. Basically, each US Hispanic, on average, cancels out the tax contribution of one US white or US Asian, while each US black cancels out the tax contribution of two US whites/Asians. So viewed this way, the actual demographic heft of the USA adjusted for ethne is 215m whites+Asians minus 50m Hispanics minus 40m (×2) blacks equals 85m net white equivalents (and sinking). So Russia and Germany suddenly look pretty competitive. Of course a similar (though less devastating) calculation could also be performed for each of them, perhaps using ethic IQ to size the contribution/detraction to state capacity. Germany, for example, would probably be something like 70m white Germans minus 12m Turks/Kurds etc. equals 58m net white equivalents. Russia would be a little trickier since the Russian whites are arguably not quite as valuable to the state as the US or German whites, and the non-Russian minorities are a more disparate melange.

    Replies: @Caspar von Everec, @reiner Tor, @songbird, @Jim Christian, @Boswald Bollocksworth

    I think Americans may be the most woke to demographics.

    In the past 20-30 years, the world almanac numbers for many European countries have hardly altered. They’ve seen the changing faces on the street, but not the big factbook changes. Contrast that to America, where someone who went to school 20 years ago was taught we had a population of 248 million and someone who went to school 20 years ago was taught 281 million, and, boy have we seen the changes on the street!

    In fact, I’ve often wondered if any past demographic model even predicted where we are now. You look at the future models, and none of them seem to show the same rate of growth. Almost like they are trying to disarm people.

    • Agree: GazaPlanet
  49. kept conflating it with all its rightful territories territories still intact.

    So let it be written, so let it be true.

  50. @JL
    I was recently caught using 20 year old, highly out of date, data in an online debate, it was very embarrassing. So there's some comfort in knowing that others, smarter and more knowledgeable than myself, fall into the same trap.

    Replies: @BlackFlag, @iffen

    I was recently caught using 20 year old, highly out of date, data in an online debate,

    That’s what you get by trying to use facts in a debate. There is a way around that which works beautifully and is used by most debaters.

  51. @Felix Keverich
    @reiner Tor

    The average Hungarian is not familiar with any of these stats. The average Hungarian is afflicted by a strong sense of inferiority relative to real Europeans.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @iffen

    The average Hungarian is afflicted by a strong sense of inferiority relative to real Europeans.

    Wait a minute, aren’t you Slavic?

    LOL

    • Agree: GazaPlanet
  52. I wonder what the long-term consequences of a malarial vaccine would be on demographics. Seems like it would possibly be a big disruptor. I can imagine all sorts of changes.

    Might make it easier for Africans to travel North. Might encourage greater discipline, as their would be less of an excuse for sick days. With some simple tech, maybe they would get rid of the sickle cell mutation, which would give them more endurance and make them better soldiers and workers.

    On the other hand, historically, malaria was a lot of what kept the non-Africa settlers out. If it were gone, then the natural protection blacks have might also be gone, and other people might carve up Africa, this time for real.

    • Agree: Blinky Bill
  53. @Caspar Von Everec
    Population matters, only when you scale it up in consideration of bio-capital. Having a population of 100 million whites is a blessing, its what allowed the US to become a superpower after all. Having a population 100 million blacks is a curse.

    The entire 1.3 billion strong continent of Africa has contributed less to science, technology, art, culture and literature than the puny 17 million strong country of Holland. Even most of what passes for ''African'' intellectual output is mostly the product of whites living in Africa, mostly in South Africa.

    Having 100s of millions of low iq blacks, inbred arabs and sub-human dravidians is not a blessing. India for example should be a world power considering it has 120-180 million 110+ IQ brahmins. But the country despite 7 decades of independence and enlightened liberal rule has remained a backwater.

    It rarely produces elite science, its industrial productivity ages behind that of China and 60% of its population is still composed of penniless farmers and day laborers. The addition of hundreds of millions of dravidians to the population has only had a negative effect on India's fortunes.

    A lot of people seem to believe that the Brazilian favela society is a blueprint for success in the future. Particularly Richard Spencer and the FBI/Marxnats of twitter. Whites, Asians, Brahmins and Jews would rule over vast a negro-mestizoid population that does little other than manual labor and collect welfare checks.

    They reckon that such a society can still continue to be a superpower and produce elite science and maintain world class institutions. Its essentially official American policy as outlined by all the CIA-aligned think tanks like the Brookings institute.

    They'll import a billion salvadorians and Nigerians to keep a level footing with China and maintain a colossal GDP. While importing all of Nigeria may marginally improve GDP, it will catastrophically reduce state power.

    These populations contribute nothing to the increasingly cognitive economy where physical labor is more and more obsolete due to automation. They only commit crime, eat up the money of the productive population, exhaust natural resources, create squalor and generally bring the level of society down.

    The brahmins of India might've been a world superpower if they had a country exclusively for themselves. But since they have to live with australoids, the quality of the society collapses across the board. Corruption, incompetence, religious backwardness, violence, resource leeching and a general pervasiveness of low standards hemorrhage the country.

    Its the same with Brazil. Brazil has 5-10 million Germans, some 20 million North Italians and some 3 million Japanese.

    When looking at raw numbers of high iq populations, Brazil has a high intellect fraction of at least 30 million. So by all rights, their intellectual output should be greater or at least equal to that of Scandinavia. Yet, the reality could not be more different.

    I think its obvious that addition of low functioning populations drastically reduces the intellectual output and overall state power of a nation. After all, America in 1990 was far more functional and capable that America today. Even though it had a 100 million fewer people, it was 70-75% white. At that age, general competence and power projection were far greater.

    Today America has the same number of whites but only at 56%. Consequently, America today is far less functional and has far less of an ability to project power than before.

    I think there should be some study into this matter as to how much a low IQ population reduces the overall state power of a country.

    There should also be some efforts to make a list of countries by biocapital, i.e how much useful population does a country have? Holland has a 12th of Nigeria's population, but it has vastly more useful people that can contribute positively to cvilization and state power.

    My rough ranking would be:

    1. China
    2. United States
    3. Japan
    4. India/Germany
    6. Britain
    7. Russia
    8. France
    9. Italy
    10. Indonesia/Brazil.

    Replies: @Caspar Von Everec, @reiner Tor, @Svevlad, @Almost Missouri, @Gorgeous George, @Some Guy, @SZ, @AlexanderGrozny, @Boomthorkell, @James N. Kennett, @Ron Unz

    If you’re thinking in terms of cognitive skills this is pretty easy to look into using https://piaacdataexplorer.oecd.org/ide/idepiaac/ which Anatoly has previously talked about.

    They don’t have a lot of developing countries though(Using something like Becker’s IQ database I think one could calculate it for every country pretty easily using a NORMSDIST function in google docs or the like. Not sure if the database already has population numbers, otherwise one would need to add that.).

    For example, if you look at the percentage of countries with numeracy above level 4(roughly an IQ of above 120 in white terms, so this is more smart fraction than total useful fraction) there’s roughly this many millions of them(although about 35% less than this would be working age, ideally I should’ve used working age population numbers):

    26.4 United States
    20.2 Japan
    10.8 Germany
    10.2 Russian Federation
    5.6 England (UK)
    5.4 France
    4.0 Canada
    3.5 Republic of Korea (Dragged down by old folks who grew up poor I believe)
    3.2 Poland
    3.0 Australia
    2.7 Netherlands
    2.4 Italy
    1.9 Spain
    1.6 Sweden
    1.3 Mexico
    1.2 Hungary
    1.0 Austria
    1.0 Czech Republic
    1.0 Flanders (Belgium)
    1.0 Ontario (Canada)
    0.9 Finland
    0.8 Norway
    0.8 Israel
    0.8 Quebec (Canada)
    0.8 Turkey
    0.8 Denmark
    0.7 Singapore
    0.7 New Zealand
    0.6 Slovak Republic
    0.5 Alberta (Canada)
    0.5 Greece
    0.4 Chile
    0.4 Ireland
    0.3 Peru
    0.3 Lithuania
    0.2 Kazakhstan
    0.2 Slovenia
    0.2 Northern Ireland (UK)
    0.1 Estonia
    0.0 Ecuador

    (Note: This is based on age 16-54 from 2012 rather than 16-65 because I wasn’t interested in how people who are now pensioners did. Also I used generously rounded population numbers, sometimes from memory.)

    • Agree: AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @Caspar von everec
    @Some Guy

    Where's China?

    Replies: @Some Guy

    , @Some Guy
    @Some Guy

    Now that I think about it Becker's database must have population numbers since they calculated the worldwide average(88 or something?). Anyway, I'm too lazy to make anymore lists.

    , @AltanBakshi
    @Some Guy

    I accidentally clicked agree and not Thanks button. So thank you for your effort.

  54. @Almost Missouri
    @Caspar von Everec


    Excellent idea on ”substracting” blacks and hispanics from whites and Asians in the US.
     
    The "fulcrum point" IQ for citizenship in a modern nation-state seems to be around 95. Above that you can nation-build. Below that and you can only stave off fissiparous collapse through various illiberal means.

    I’d add that 72 million out 80 million German population is actually white. The number of Germans is probably something of the order of 64 million.
     
    Thanks. So 8 million Slavs, Balkans, Italics, non-German Germanics (Swiss, Austrian, Dutch, Scandi)? Any idea what the non-German white composition is?

    As far as France, the white population is about 51-54 million. France has had extensive european migration, primarily from Italy and Spain for the last two centuries. The percentage of actual French, i.e Gauls, Bretons, Franks and Occitan is a mystery. Though I read an estimate that its about 40 million or so.
     
    Yeah, France is deliberately ethnic-obscurantist. Though I would count two-century old Latin immigrants as effectively French now. 11-14 million of those? That leaves another 11-14 million Arabs/Africans. That doesn't seem quite so bad as I've been hearing ... but then, higher birthrates.

    Russia is far better off that it seems. Its roughly 85% white when you count Russians, Ukrainians, Germans and Greeks. That amounts to some 124 million people. Its diversity isn’t that toxic either. The largest minority is Volga tatar who have an IQ near identical to Russians and is genetically about 70-80% Slavic.
     
    Thanks. These kinds of subtleties are the reason that I didn't venture to calculate Russia.

    The American hispanic contingent is a mixed bag. Around half of it is Castizo supposedly, 75% white(mostly Iberian) people that identify as hispanic for the diversity points. They are borderline white.
     
    Yes, "Hispanics" is bastard category peculiar to the US. It's nominally based on language (although many "Hispanics" don't actually speak Spanish) and mixes higher caste Cubans and South Americans with lower caste Central Americans, plus Dominicans and Puerto Ricans muddying things further. It is a lousy theoretical categorization, but in practice it tracks pretty well between whites and blacks.

    Japan also has significant human capital, as does Korea.

     

    Agree. On paper Japan should be more powerful than the US, though the East Asians punch above their weight compared to everyone else, they still punch somewhat below their weight compared to Europeans. OTOH, the Japanese and Koreans are on some of the most resource-poor real estate in the world.

    China however has the potential to be strong that they could take on and defeat the rest of the world combined and truly conquer and subjugate the whole planet.
     
    Yes, China is the sleeping dragon: the largest high-IQ mono-ethne in a unitary nation-state. On paper, they should be wiping the floor with the rest of us. Maybe they will, eventually.

    The CCP for its part however, has not been too successful in harnessing this potential.
     
    Well, compared to the famine-wracked dystopia of a couple generations ago, they're not doing too badly, and unlike the West, they are still on an upward trajectory.

    Replies: @Svevlad, @Pumblechook, @Caspar Von Everec

    East Asia in general is a dump resource wise. It’s only good a s a giant labor pool to be unleashed

    • Troll: Mulga Mumblebrain
  55. @Some Guy
    @Caspar Von Everec

    If you're thinking in terms of cognitive skills this is pretty easy to look into using https://piaacdataexplorer.oecd.org/ide/idepiaac/ which Anatoly has previously talked about.

    They don't have a lot of developing countries though(Using something like Becker's IQ database I think one could calculate it for every country pretty easily using a NORMSDIST function in google docs or the like. Not sure if the database already has population numbers, otherwise one would need to add that.).

    For example, if you look at the percentage of countries with numeracy above level 4(roughly an IQ of above 120 in white terms, so this is more smart fraction than total useful fraction) there's roughly this many millions of them(although about 35% less than this would be working age, ideally I should've used working age population numbers):

    26.4 United States
    20.2 Japan
    10.8 Germany
    10.2 Russian Federation
    5.6 England (UK)
    5.4 France
    4.0 Canada
    3.5 Republic of Korea (Dragged down by old folks who grew up poor I believe)
    3.2 Poland
    3.0 Australia
    2.7 Netherlands
    2.4 Italy
    1.9 Spain
    1.6 Sweden
    1.3 Mexico
    1.2 Hungary
    1.0 Austria
    1.0 Czech Republic
    1.0 Flanders (Belgium)
    1.0 Ontario (Canada)
    0.9 Finland
    0.8 Norway
    0.8 Israel
    0.8 Quebec (Canada)
    0.8 Turkey
    0.8 Denmark
    0.7 Singapore
    0.7 New Zealand
    0.6 Slovak Republic
    0.5 Alberta (Canada)
    0.5 Greece
    0.4 Chile
    0.4 Ireland
    0.3 Peru
    0.3 Lithuania
    0.2 Kazakhstan
    0.2 Slovenia
    0.2 Northern Ireland (UK)
    0.1 Estonia
    0.0 Ecuador

    (Note: This is based on age 16-54 from 2012 rather than 16-65 because I wasn't interested in how people who are now pensioners did. Also I used generously rounded population numbers, sometimes from memory.)

    Replies: @Caspar von everec, @Some Guy, @AltanBakshi

    Where’s China?

    • Replies: @Some Guy
    @Caspar von everec

    Didn't participate, but would surely be number one.

  56. @Caspar von everec
    @Some Guy

    Where's China?

    Replies: @Some Guy

    Didn’t participate, but would surely be number one.

  57. @Some Guy
    @Caspar Von Everec

    If you're thinking in terms of cognitive skills this is pretty easy to look into using https://piaacdataexplorer.oecd.org/ide/idepiaac/ which Anatoly has previously talked about.

    They don't have a lot of developing countries though(Using something like Becker's IQ database I think one could calculate it for every country pretty easily using a NORMSDIST function in google docs or the like. Not sure if the database already has population numbers, otherwise one would need to add that.).

    For example, if you look at the percentage of countries with numeracy above level 4(roughly an IQ of above 120 in white terms, so this is more smart fraction than total useful fraction) there's roughly this many millions of them(although about 35% less than this would be working age, ideally I should've used working age population numbers):

    26.4 United States
    20.2 Japan
    10.8 Germany
    10.2 Russian Federation
    5.6 England (UK)
    5.4 France
    4.0 Canada
    3.5 Republic of Korea (Dragged down by old folks who grew up poor I believe)
    3.2 Poland
    3.0 Australia
    2.7 Netherlands
    2.4 Italy
    1.9 Spain
    1.6 Sweden
    1.3 Mexico
    1.2 Hungary
    1.0 Austria
    1.0 Czech Republic
    1.0 Flanders (Belgium)
    1.0 Ontario (Canada)
    0.9 Finland
    0.8 Norway
    0.8 Israel
    0.8 Quebec (Canada)
    0.8 Turkey
    0.8 Denmark
    0.7 Singapore
    0.7 New Zealand
    0.6 Slovak Republic
    0.5 Alberta (Canada)
    0.5 Greece
    0.4 Chile
    0.4 Ireland
    0.3 Peru
    0.3 Lithuania
    0.2 Kazakhstan
    0.2 Slovenia
    0.2 Northern Ireland (UK)
    0.1 Estonia
    0.0 Ecuador

    (Note: This is based on age 16-54 from 2012 rather than 16-65 because I wasn't interested in how people who are now pensioners did. Also I used generously rounded population numbers, sometimes from memory.)

    Replies: @Caspar von everec, @Some Guy, @AltanBakshi

    Now that I think about it Becker’s database must have population numbers since they calculated the worldwide average(88 or something?). Anyway, I’m too lazy to make anymore lists.

  58. Anatoly, what the hell are you doing standing there on building’s edge? Where was THAT? I’ve jumped outta perfectly good airplanes, worked 50′ in the air fixing wires and speakers and shit in creaky work stands, I’ve even jumped unhurt twenty feet onto the lawn of Pop’s house, none of it gets to me.

    But I see people standing on edges of buildings that are tens of stories up and I worry, heh.. Careful!

  59. @Almost Missouri
    @Caspar Von Everec

    Yeah, the gross numbers Anatoly uses are a starting point, but he could do something like his CMP-type adjustments to them. For example, he has the USA at 320m or 330m (probably actually about 350m with all the illegals), but only about 200m are the white people who are what most think of as what makes the USA the USA. Still, that's the largest number of white people ever in one nation-state. (And since that number is peaking now, it may be the largest number that there ever will be, unless Russia can win the long game.)

    Similarly, he has Russia at 145m, but only, what, 100m are actual Russians? Still, 100m is the second most white people ever under one flag, and if Russia can overcome near-term fertility problems, it is not boxed in to an ideological/structural dead end like the US is. So Russia may have good prospects in the long term, if it can solve the short term.

    France at 65m, but maybe only 45m of those are actually French, while the rest are mostly imported bulk filler. Germany at 82m, but probably only 70m actual Germans (still third most whites under one flag). The French have had about a century long paranoia about their weak demographics compared to Germany. After WWI France was (justly) worried about Germany's 3:2 demographic advantage (and 5:2 in the coming draft-age cohort). So their post-WWII solution was to bulk up with a lot of foreigners, especially Arabs and Africans. Ironically, this solution to the threat of German demographic overbearance has simply created a greater threat of internal xeno-ethnic overbearance. Meanwhile the actual threat from Germany has dropped to approximately zero. On paper, France can congratulate itself on having chiseled Germany's demo advantage down to 5:4, but strip away the filler and the ratio is still the same old 3:2, and now France has imported a huge semi-hostile underclass to achieve this paper parity. So France now suffers a much bigger internal threat as a result of trying to solve an external problem that no longer exists.

    So what would be the Capital coefficient to the Labor factor à la CMP? Well, The Alternative Hypothesis guy did a good back-of-the-envelope on net tax contributions (i.e., raw contribution to state capacity) of different US ethnes. Basically, each US Hispanic, on average, cancels out the tax contribution of one US white or US Asian, while each US black cancels out the tax contribution of two US whites/Asians. So viewed this way, the actual demographic heft of the USA adjusted for ethne is 215m whites+Asians minus 50m Hispanics minus 40m (×2) blacks equals 85m net white equivalents (and sinking). So Russia and Germany suddenly look pretty competitive. Of course a similar (though less devastating) calculation could also be performed for each of them, perhaps using ethic IQ to size the contribution/detraction to state capacity. Germany, for example, would probably be something like 70m white Germans minus 12m Turks/Kurds etc. equals 58m net white equivalents. Russia would be a little trickier since the Russian whites are arguably not quite as valuable to the state as the US or German whites, and the non-Russian minorities are a more disparate melange.

    Replies: @Caspar von Everec, @reiner Tor, @songbird, @Jim Christian, @Boswald Bollocksworth

    Basically, each US Hispanic, on average, cancels out the tax contribution of one US white or US Asian, while each US black cancels out the tax contribution of two US whites/Asians.

    Yeah, tax measurements, but that means nothing competitively. When you consider population by competition, how do you calculate the useless EEOC hires of women into HR, academia and government? Instantly calculate at a minimum, 80-90% of the US population of women is and has always been an enormous liability. They get useless degrees, they have useless, make-work jobs, they create nothing with their relatively new-found equality and power. Everyone knows this. Elizabeth Holmes and other failures are the rule, not the exception, by the way.

    College-educated white females are well-nigh worthless because you get nothing productive out of them. No inventions, no engineering, they don’t make decent wives, they don’t have babies, they’ve come out with no great works of music. They scarf up their loans for their shitty degrees, they cause enormous grief everywhere they’re employed, they’ve ruined our legislative processes EVERYWHERE and they are a net loss to society in every way shape and form, it’s just never been calculated.

    I don’t know HOW you calculate what blacks cost while ignoring the enormous drag, cost and societal destruction of Western-educated white females. I’d bet they are the bigger loads by far than blacks. By FAR.

  60. SZ says:
    @Caspar Von Everec
    Population matters, only when you scale it up in consideration of bio-capital. Having a population of 100 million whites is a blessing, its what allowed the US to become a superpower after all. Having a population 100 million blacks is a curse.

    The entire 1.3 billion strong continent of Africa has contributed less to science, technology, art, culture and literature than the puny 17 million strong country of Holland. Even most of what passes for ''African'' intellectual output is mostly the product of whites living in Africa, mostly in South Africa.

    Having 100s of millions of low iq blacks, inbred arabs and sub-human dravidians is not a blessing. India for example should be a world power considering it has 120-180 million 110+ IQ brahmins. But the country despite 7 decades of independence and enlightened liberal rule has remained a backwater.

    It rarely produces elite science, its industrial productivity ages behind that of China and 60% of its population is still composed of penniless farmers and day laborers. The addition of hundreds of millions of dravidians to the population has only had a negative effect on India's fortunes.

    A lot of people seem to believe that the Brazilian favela society is a blueprint for success in the future. Particularly Richard Spencer and the FBI/Marxnats of twitter. Whites, Asians, Brahmins and Jews would rule over vast a negro-mestizoid population that does little other than manual labor and collect welfare checks.

    They reckon that such a society can still continue to be a superpower and produce elite science and maintain world class institutions. Its essentially official American policy as outlined by all the CIA-aligned think tanks like the Brookings institute.

    They'll import a billion salvadorians and Nigerians to keep a level footing with China and maintain a colossal GDP. While importing all of Nigeria may marginally improve GDP, it will catastrophically reduce state power.

    These populations contribute nothing to the increasingly cognitive economy where physical labor is more and more obsolete due to automation. They only commit crime, eat up the money of the productive population, exhaust natural resources, create squalor and generally bring the level of society down.

    The brahmins of India might've been a world superpower if they had a country exclusively for themselves. But since they have to live with australoids, the quality of the society collapses across the board. Corruption, incompetence, religious backwardness, violence, resource leeching and a general pervasiveness of low standards hemorrhage the country.

    Its the same with Brazil. Brazil has 5-10 million Germans, some 20 million North Italians and some 3 million Japanese.

    When looking at raw numbers of high iq populations, Brazil has a high intellect fraction of at least 30 million. So by all rights, their intellectual output should be greater or at least equal to that of Scandinavia. Yet, the reality could not be more different.

    I think its obvious that addition of low functioning populations drastically reduces the intellectual output and overall state power of a nation. After all, America in 1990 was far more functional and capable that America today. Even though it had a 100 million fewer people, it was 70-75% white. At that age, general competence and power projection were far greater.

    Today America has the same number of whites but only at 56%. Consequently, America today is far less functional and has far less of an ability to project power than before.

    I think there should be some study into this matter as to how much a low IQ population reduces the overall state power of a country.

    There should also be some efforts to make a list of countries by biocapital, i.e how much useful population does a country have? Holland has a 12th of Nigeria's population, but it has vastly more useful people that can contribute positively to cvilization and state power.

    My rough ranking would be:

    1. China
    2. United States
    3. Japan
    4. India/Germany
    6. Britain
    7. Russia
    8. France
    9. Italy
    10. Indonesia/Brazil.

    Replies: @Caspar Von Everec, @reiner Tor, @Svevlad, @Almost Missouri, @Gorgeous George, @Some Guy, @SZ, @AlexanderGrozny, @Boomthorkell, @James N. Kennett, @Ron Unz

    India for example should be a world power considering it has 120-180 million 110+ IQ brahmins. But the country despite 7 decades of independence and enlightened liberal rule has remained a backwater.

    Maybe the “enlightened liberal rule ” is exactly what India held back compared to China. Maybe one should not play multi-party democracy and the accompanying quadrennial election festival coupled with traditional bombings and assassinations while millions of your population still poop on the street. Maybe there should be a rigid bureaucracy sorting things out until production, distribution, and communication systems are established at the national scale, and further, the population is technically as well as ideologically ‘educated’ so that most citizens share the same outlook and broadly follow the same rules, since if not, they vote for their ‘tribe’ and not for their preferences anyhow.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @SZ

    I don't really know much about urban politics in India, but I was thinking that the Próspera model might be attractive there.

    That is, you create a city that is less democratic, with the intention of making it more functional and livable. The government farms out taxes to you. You collect a lower rate, but with lower levels of avoidance. I understand that tax avoidance is very high in India.

    Replies: @Caspar Von Everec

  61. Perhaps, we should follow the advice of Bono and Tony Blair and increase foreign aid.

    And then transform foreign aid into an ambitious, technologically-advanced department of Victorian-style ethnography – a department of HBD. Seems to me a lot of these African countries could use help taking censuses. Why not include craniometric, IQ, and SNP data, as well?

  62. @SZ
    @Caspar Von Everec


    India for example should be a world power considering it has 120-180 million 110+ IQ brahmins. But the country despite 7 decades of independence and enlightened liberal rule has remained a backwater.
     
    Maybe the "enlightened liberal rule " is exactly what India held back compared to China. Maybe one should not play multi-party democracy and the accompanying quadrennial election festival coupled with traditional bombings and assassinations while millions of your population still poop on the street. Maybe there should be a rigid bureaucracy sorting things out until production, distribution, and communication systems are established at the national scale, and further, the population is technically as well as ideologically 'educated' so that most citizens share the same outlook and broadly follow the same rules, since if not, they vote for their 'tribe' and not for their preferences anyhow.

    Replies: @songbird

    I don’t really know much about urban politics in India, but I was thinking that the Próspera model might be attractive there.

    That is, you create a city that is less democratic, with the intention of making it more functional and livable. The government farms out taxes to you. You collect a lower rate, but with lower levels of avoidance. I understand that tax avoidance is very high in India.

    • Replies: @Caspar Von Everec
    @songbird

    The Indian elite is way too leftists to allow something like that.

    Replies: @songbird

  63. @reiner Tor
    @Felix Keverich


    Inferiority complex itself is a product of Western-centric worldview, and thus correlates with pro-Western politics. It’s most present in Eastern European liberals and svidomy types, which is basically Hungarian political spectrum. Russian vatniks are not afflicted by it. Vatniks are emotionally healthier individuals.
     
    Then you must be something else, not a vatnik, because you seem to harbor deep insecurities yourself. Chill out dude, Hungary is like 7% the size of Russia (in terms of population), you don’t need to care so deeply about what Hungarians think.

    The idea that “going east means poorer” doesn’t come from any particular data set
     
    Well within Hungary it’s certainly true that the westernmost big cities like Szombathely, Sopron or Győr are significantly richer than the easternmost big cities like Miskolc, Debrecen, Szeged or Nyíregyháza. Of our neighbors the westernmost one, Austria is also by far the richest. The easternmost Ukraine is the poorest. Slovakia to the north (in between the two) is in between in terms of wealth as well. Of our southern neighbors Austria is richer than Slovenia, which is richer than Croatia, which is richer than Serbia and Romania, which are both richer than Ukraine, so the only exception to the rule is Romania being richer than Serbia. But even there it wasn’t true before the early 1990s.

    Replies: @Bies Podkrakowski, @AP, @Kazan, @Beckow

    Claiming Felix or russians in general have some inferiority complex with true Europeans is laughable, and I’m not sure the same can be said of Hungarians to Germans:

    1. Our football fans beating the sh*t out of Anglo thugs in Euro 2016

    2. With the Americans and anglos we are among the biggest travellers/tourists on the planet. We go to the west, and show zero inclination to stay there after holiday. Even our guys in Karelia who cross the border into Finland all the time don’t show any Inferiority complex.

    3. This is maybe even more obvious in Kaliningrad where our guys do plenty of food shopping and visits to neighbouring EU states, but show f**k all interest in staying there. The depopulation stats for Kaliningrad are far less ( actually I think the population increases) than for the majority of russian regions,despite the easier chance of moving to the EU – so your inferiority theory is BS.

    4. The population of Hungary would be about 243 if they had the same climatic extremities as in Russia

    5. Russians are probably the proudest and most secure in their culture of any people’s on the planet. Can Hungarians claim any of that, particularly with the German influence?

    As for “living conditions superior in Hungary, except for Muscovites” – Moscow is 20 million people, SP 5 million, Kazan far higher living standards, Krasnoyarsk, Ufa, Krasnodar, Lipetsk, Tyumen, Yekaterinburg, Sochi and many other places with a population dwarfing that of Hungary that have a superior ( OK let’s be diplomatic and say equal) standard of living.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Kazan


    We go to the west, and show zero inclination to stay there after holiday
     
    And yet, there you are, writing from England Gerard. The irony.

    Replies: @sudden death

    , @Manfrog
    @Kazan

    Reading this bizarre comment, I understand the logic behind Generalplan Ost..

  64. @CCG
    @AltanBakshi

    The Assamese in the North-East were never under Muslim rule, but today the average Assamese is economically behind the average Indian.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @RadicalCenter

    But their tea is wonderful and strong.

  65. @Kazan
    @reiner Tor

    Claiming Felix or russians in general have some inferiority complex with true Europeans is laughable, and I'm not sure the same can be said of Hungarians to Germans:

    1. Our football fans beating the sh*t out of Anglo thugs in Euro 2016

    2. With the Americans and anglos we are among the biggest travellers/tourists on the planet. We go to the west, and show zero inclination to stay there after holiday. Even our guys in Karelia who cross the border into Finland all the time don't show any Inferiority complex.

    3. This is maybe even more obvious in Kaliningrad where our guys do plenty of food shopping and visits to neighbouring EU states, but show f**k all interest in staying there. The depopulation stats for Kaliningrad are far less ( actually I think the population increases) than for the majority of russian regions,despite the easier chance of moving to the EU - so your inferiority theory is BS.

    4. The population of Hungary would be about 243 if they had the same climatic extremities as in Russia

    5. Russians are probably the proudest and most secure in their culture of any people's on the planet. Can Hungarians claim any of that, particularly with the German influence?

    As for "living conditions superior in Hungary, except for Muscovites" - Moscow is 20 million people, SP 5 million, Kazan far higher living standards, Krasnoyarsk, Ufa, Krasnodar, Lipetsk, Tyumen, Yekaterinburg, Sochi and many other places with a population dwarfing that of Hungary that have a superior ( OK let's be diplomatic and say equal) standard of living.

    Replies: @AP, @Manfrog

    We go to the west, and show zero inclination to stay there after holiday

    And yet, there you are, writing from England Gerard. The irony.

    • Replies: @sudden death
    @AP

    His writing manner though seems way too much coherent compared with Gerard's usual stream of consciousness style with plenty of childish namecallings.

    Replies: @AP

  66. @AltanBakshi
    @CCG

    Nothing is caused by just by one reason alone, similarly the Muslim rule is not the only reason for the backwardness of the North, but it is clearly a major or main reason for it. There are parallels in Europe, where for most of the 20th century those regions, which were longest ruled by Ottomans, were the poorest ones.

    Nepal too has never been under a direct Islamic rule, but on average it's more backwards than India, but both Nepal and Assam have a very harsh geography, not long time ago almost all of Assam was jungle, full of malaria, and Nepal's geography is even harsher, full of mountains and hills, oh and not forgetting the malaria that plagued Terai or the southern half of Nepal.

    Still there's even more important factor explaining these matters for Assam and Nepal, both lands are peripheries of Indo-Gangetic plain, therefore the flow of inventions and products is from the heartland to periphery, if the heartland is sick, or under an anti-scientific regime, there will be less new innovations and trends flowing to periphery. Scandinavia is a periphery of Europe, Assam and Nepal were peripheries of Muslim ruled Hindustan, therefore one can't make any rules based on the examples of some remote peripheral countries. Even before the Muslim rule, the economy of ancient Assam, or Kamarupa, was intimately tied with the Bengal, same with Nepal and Gangetic plain. What would happen to Wales if England would become Islamic, and Wales would continue as an independent and Christian Welsh state and such situation would continue for 700-800 years? I don't know, but maybe pondering such questions will give you some perspective?

    Replies: @CCG

    I think genetics makes all the difference. Asturias was a mountainous backwater that remained independent and Catholic, while the rest of Iberia came under Islamic rule. It was the periphery of the Iberian peninsula, but it became the launchpad for the Reconquista.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @CCG

    Spain probably has natural latitudinal IQ differences, even when you don't consider admixture.

    , @AltanBakshi
    @CCG

    Assamese and Nepalese population is mostly mix of Indo-Aryan and Sino-Tibetan(and Kra-Dai in Assam), with a bit of Dravida genes, I really don't follow your logic. You can't compare Asturias puny hills with the highest mountains of the world, found in Nepal. Also are you implying that Asturias genetics were somehow better? For most of recorded history of Iberia, the South has been more developed and technologically advanced.

    The real reason for Asturias success, is same as it was with other people of harsher and remoter areas, lower population density, more animal protein in food, higher level of cohesion(asabiyya) than that found among the more settled and urbanised people, oh well there are many reasons, but I would not say that people of Asturia are by nature more intelligent Catalonians or something, but I don't live in Spain, so I can't surely say, maybe, maybe not. Or are you claiming that Afghanis are genetically better than Indians? After all Afghanistan has been the "launchpad" for repeated conquests of India. Though Medieval Indians wrote about Turki invaders, vast majority of Islamic conquerors were of Eastern Iranian/Pashtun origin, or more accurately, the armies of Turkic conquerors were mostly composed of Afghan tribesmen.

  67. A big part of the economic difference between North and South India is the difference between being near the coast and not being near the coast. In any large country – China, the US, Russia, India – the parts nearer ports/more easily accessed are generally richer than the inland/less easily accessed parts.

    This is not to say that Islam or marrying your cousin helps. Or a that a port is everything. Detroit is a reasonably good port.

    • Agree: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @songbird

    Orissa is one of the poorest regions of India, it's an extremely poor place, and it's on the coast! Well Muslim rule there was quite short, but British rule was long, just like in Bengal and Bihar, which both are poor places.

    Replies: @songbird

  68. @Some Guy
    @Caspar Von Everec

    If you're thinking in terms of cognitive skills this is pretty easy to look into using https://piaacdataexplorer.oecd.org/ide/idepiaac/ which Anatoly has previously talked about.

    They don't have a lot of developing countries though(Using something like Becker's IQ database I think one could calculate it for every country pretty easily using a NORMSDIST function in google docs or the like. Not sure if the database already has population numbers, otherwise one would need to add that.).

    For example, if you look at the percentage of countries with numeracy above level 4(roughly an IQ of above 120 in white terms, so this is more smart fraction than total useful fraction) there's roughly this many millions of them(although about 35% less than this would be working age, ideally I should've used working age population numbers):

    26.4 United States
    20.2 Japan
    10.8 Germany
    10.2 Russian Federation
    5.6 England (UK)
    5.4 France
    4.0 Canada
    3.5 Republic of Korea (Dragged down by old folks who grew up poor I believe)
    3.2 Poland
    3.0 Australia
    2.7 Netherlands
    2.4 Italy
    1.9 Spain
    1.6 Sweden
    1.3 Mexico
    1.2 Hungary
    1.0 Austria
    1.0 Czech Republic
    1.0 Flanders (Belgium)
    1.0 Ontario (Canada)
    0.9 Finland
    0.8 Norway
    0.8 Israel
    0.8 Quebec (Canada)
    0.8 Turkey
    0.8 Denmark
    0.7 Singapore
    0.7 New Zealand
    0.6 Slovak Republic
    0.5 Alberta (Canada)
    0.5 Greece
    0.4 Chile
    0.4 Ireland
    0.3 Peru
    0.3 Lithuania
    0.2 Kazakhstan
    0.2 Slovenia
    0.2 Northern Ireland (UK)
    0.1 Estonia
    0.0 Ecuador

    (Note: This is based on age 16-54 from 2012 rather than 16-65 because I wasn't interested in how people who are now pensioners did. Also I used generously rounded population numbers, sometimes from memory.)

    Replies: @Caspar von everec, @Some Guy, @AltanBakshi

    I accidentally clicked agree and not Thanks button. So thank you for your effort.

    • Agree: Some Guy
  69. @CCG
    @AltanBakshi

    I think genetics makes all the difference. Asturias was a mountainous backwater that remained independent and Catholic, while the rest of Iberia came under Islamic rule. It was the periphery of the Iberian peninsula, but it became the launchpad for the Reconquista.

    Replies: @songbird, @AltanBakshi

    Spain probably has natural latitudinal IQ differences, even when you don’t consider admixture.

  70. @AP
    @Kazan


    We go to the west, and show zero inclination to stay there after holiday
     
    And yet, there you are, writing from England Gerard. The irony.

    Replies: @sudden death

    His writing manner though seems way too much coherent compared with Gerard’s usual stream of consciousness style with plenty of childish namecallings.

    • Agree: AltanBakshi
    • Disagree: Gerard-Mandela
    • Replies: @AP
    @sudden death

    He is slightly more careful with language, but themes are the same. Gerard once mentioned that he was from Kazan. It seems obvious he is desperate to be here.

  71. @CCG
    @AltanBakshi

    I think genetics makes all the difference. Asturias was a mountainous backwater that remained independent and Catholic, while the rest of Iberia came under Islamic rule. It was the periphery of the Iberian peninsula, but it became the launchpad for the Reconquista.

    Replies: @songbird, @AltanBakshi

    Assamese and Nepalese population is mostly mix of Indo-Aryan and Sino-Tibetan(and Kra-Dai in Assam), with a bit of Dravida genes, I really don’t follow your logic. You can’t compare Asturias puny hills with the highest mountains of the world, found in Nepal. Also are you implying that Asturias genetics were somehow better? For most of recorded history of Iberia, the South has been more developed and technologically advanced.

    The real reason for Asturias success, is same as it was with other people of harsher and remoter areas, lower population density, more animal protein in food, higher level of cohesion(asabiyya) than that found among the more settled and urbanised people, oh well there are many reasons, but I would not say that people of Asturia are by nature more intelligent Catalonians or something, but I don’t live in Spain, so I can’t surely say, maybe, maybe not. Or are you claiming that Afghanis are genetically better than Indians? After all Afghanistan has been the “launchpad” for repeated conquests of India. Though Medieval Indians wrote about Turki invaders, vast majority of Islamic conquerors were of Eastern Iranian/Pashtun origin, or more accurately, the armies of Turkic conquerors were mostly composed of Afghan tribesmen.

  72. many “analysts” seem to believe that China outside its eastern seaboard, and Russia outside Moscow, are a twilight zone of peasant hovels and dilapidated post-industrial ruins, respectively.

    Nothing new there. Based on this kind of “analysis” Napoleon and Hitler underestimated Russia, whereas Japan underestimated China. Their “analysis” came to bite them all in the butt. Served them right.

    • Agree: Blinky Bill
  73. @songbird
    A big part of the economic difference between North and South India is the difference between being near the coast and not being near the coast. In any large country - China, the US, Russia, India - the parts nearer ports/more easily accessed are generally richer than the inland/less easily accessed parts.

    This is not to say that Islam or marrying your cousin helps. Or a that a port is everything. Detroit is a reasonably good port.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    Orissa is one of the poorest regions of India, it’s an extremely poor place, and it’s on the coast! Well Muslim rule there was quite short, but British rule was long, just like in Bengal and Bihar, which both are poor places.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @AltanBakshi

    I suspect Bihar is explained partly by being inland, and Bengal by being densely populated.

    Orissa is a mystery to me but I am reluctant to blame the British. In Africa, I believe colonialism is associated with higher per capita. Anyway, I'm not sure that they had good control of the tribal areas. Seems to be growing quickly now, though?

  74. @reiner Tor
    @Bies Podkrakowski

    Sad! Many such cases.

    Replies: @A Literal Midget

    I wasn’t around for the 1990s, so indulge me, please:

    To what extent was there an “At least we’re not Russia” (or outright “Get fucked, Russia”) attitude amongst the Warsaw Pact countries after the collapse of the Soviet Union?

    It seems to me that there would be a fair bit of schadenfreude at Russia’s fall from dominant Soviet power to a third-world shithole after the Union’s disintegration, especially if the former WP countries were concurrently being welcomed into “the West”.

    This would, in turn, create an inferiority complex amongst some Russians, which is now being vented – i.e. resolved – due to yet another reversal of fortune (Russia’s economic rise).

    This would explain a fair few of the “many such cases”, but I’m curious as to how grounded my theory is in reality.

    • Replies: @AP
    @A Literal Midget


    This would, in turn, create an inferiority complex amongst some Russians, which is now being vented – i.e. resolved – due to yet another reversal of fortune (Russia’s economic rise
     
    Economically, Russia caught up to the Warsaw Pact countries in the 2000s and early 2010s but has fallen behind since then, although it has not remains economically very comfortable. Moscow is in all ways a wealthy first world city surpassing Western capitals in almost all metrics. Currently it’s per capita GDP surpasses only Bulgaria’s, among the Warsaw Pact countries.

    Replies: @A Literal Midget

  75. @Caspar von Everec
    @reiner Tor

    Well a country of 100 million should in theory be capable of mustering a 1 million strong army. However that's far easier to do on paper than in reality. It takes an ungodly amount of logistical competence and efficiency to fully maintain and field such a force.

    Seeing Africa's state capacity, the ability of their leaders to field such a force is practically nil. If anything such a large army could start fighting itself over inter tribal feuds.

    Nominally the Nigerian government rules over 200 million blacks but in reality they have littel control over most of them. Its borderline impossible to get a population as inbred and low iq like sub saharans to overcome tribal difference and act as a coherent national unit.

    Though they look like large compact blocks on the map, in reality African countries are divided into hundreds if not thousands of semi-autonomous tribes and sects.

    Replies: @Wency

    This seems about right. And the obvious point is that African countries haven’t ever shown much ability to project power into one another. Ethiopia (not even an especially dysfunctional African state) couldn’t keep or conquer Eritrea despite having a 10x or more population advantage.

    A point could be made that Nigeria has intervened in some civil wars, e.g. Sierra Leone, to apparent success. But I think that Nigeria’s ability to project power is much more an effect of its petroleum revenues ($39bn in petroleum exports in 2019 is the stat I see) than its ability to tax a dirt-poor population.

    For a petrostate, it seems the population is basically a liability — you have to spend money to keep them happy and yet they produce nothing of value. So why can’t petrostates ever seem to control their population growth? I have to think the House of Saud would be in a more secure position if the population of its subjects hadn’t skyrocketed.

    • Replies: @A Literal Midget
    @Wency

    I have a hunch that it's easier/cheaper to pay off your population than it is to genocide/reproductively-cripple it. Thus, it would be the preferable strategy for an extractive (literally, for a petrostate) short-term-oriented elite that can stash their loot elsewhere.

    The pacified populace does what any population does, and grows to the extent that it can afford, causing spiraling costs at a later time; by then the original extractive elites are long gone, and their replacements fight to keep the enterprise afloat for enough time to get theirs and leave, as well. Eventually, something blows out, and everything collapses, leaving European charities to pick up the pieces.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

  76. @sudden death
    @AP

    His writing manner though seems way too much coherent compared with Gerard's usual stream of consciousness style with plenty of childish namecallings.

    Replies: @AP

    He is slightly more careful with language, but themes are the same. Gerard once mentioned that he was from Kazan. It seems obvious he is desperate to be here.

  77. AP says:
    @A Literal Midget
    @reiner Tor

    I wasn't around for the 1990s, so indulge me, please:

    To what extent was there an "At least we're not Russia" (or outright "Get fucked, Russia") attitude amongst the Warsaw Pact countries after the collapse of the Soviet Union?

    It seems to me that there would be a fair bit of schadenfreude at Russia's fall from dominant Soviet power to a third-world shithole after the Union's disintegration, especially if the former WP countries were concurrently being welcomed into "the West".

    This would, in turn, create an inferiority complex amongst some Russians, which is now being vented - i.e. resolved - due to yet another reversal of fortune (Russia's economic rise).

    This would explain a fair few of the "many such cases", but I'm curious as to how grounded my theory is in reality.

    Replies: @AP

    This would, in turn, create an inferiority complex amongst some Russians, which is now being vented – i.e. resolved – due to yet another reversal of fortune (Russia’s economic rise

    Economically, Russia caught up to the Warsaw Pact countries in the 2000s and early 2010s but has fallen behind since then, although it has not remains economically very comfortable. Moscow is in all ways a wealthy first world city surpassing Western capitals in almost all metrics. Currently it’s per capita GDP surpasses only Bulgaria’s, among the Warsaw Pact countries.

    • Replies: @A Literal Midget
    @AP

    I see. Two questions:

    Is the per capita GDP catch-up/fall-off in USD terms, or in terms of purchasing power parity? Exchange rates can do funky things, especially with sanctions in play.

    (Original question) Was there a common feeling of schadenfreude amongst the Warsaw Pact countries at the reversal of Russian political and economic fortune after the Soviet collapse, and, if there was, how widespread/vocally-expressed was it?

    P.S., who is Gerhard, and why does he sound like Andrei Martyanov?

    Replies: @AP

  78. Russian HDI = 0.824
    Turkish HDI = 0.820

    Russian GDPPPP per capita: $29.485
    Turkish GDPPPP per capita: $32.278

    Russian skinhead: “Torkoy third world, Roshiya first world.” Lol you bald role-playing assclown.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Blade

    Russia is still recovering from Communism.

    Prior to Communism, Czechia had about the same per capita GDP as Austria. Even now, 30 years after the fall of Communism, it is only at 75% of Austria’s per capita GDP PPP, 3/4 to where it should naturally be. Russia’s circumstances probably reflect a similar if not even more negative skew because it experienced Communism for longer. So this would bring Russia to Spain’s level - much higher than Turkey.

    Turkey does not have the excuse of generations of Communist filth to hold itself back; its current condition is its natural one, as a respectable mid-range civilization.

    Replies: @Blade, @Dmitry, @Morton's toes, @AltanBakshi

    , @AltanBakshi
    @Blade

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/84/Russian_poster.JPG/1280px-Russian_poster.JPG

    Replies: @Blade

    , @songbird
    @Blade

    Moscow and St. Petersburg seem like better places to live than Istanbul.

    As to the first world: IMO, the only currently fully first world country is Japan. I don't think the US should be considered to be first world anymore.

    Of course, that creates its own problems about where to rank it. It wouldn't do to call it "second world", and yet I think "first and third world mixed" really loses something - that is what you might have with apartheid or segregation or non-universal suffrage. By themselves, price barriers in real estate only offer minimal protection to a lot of negative factors.

    I wish the Japanese would develop a country-ranking scale to shame the woke West.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon

  79. @Wency
    @Caspar von Everec

    This seems about right. And the obvious point is that African countries haven't ever shown much ability to project power into one another. Ethiopia (not even an especially dysfunctional African state) couldn't keep or conquer Eritrea despite having a 10x or more population advantage.

    A point could be made that Nigeria has intervened in some civil wars, e.g. Sierra Leone, to apparent success. But I think that Nigeria's ability to project power is much more an effect of its petroleum revenues ($39bn in petroleum exports in 2019 is the stat I see) than its ability to tax a dirt-poor population.

    For a petrostate, it seems the population is basically a liability -- you have to spend money to keep them happy and yet they produce nothing of value. So why can't petrostates ever seem to control their population growth? I have to think the House of Saud would be in a more secure position if the population of its subjects hadn't skyrocketed.

    Replies: @A Literal Midget

    I have a hunch that it’s easier/cheaper to pay off your population than it is to genocide/reproductively-cripple it. Thus, it would be the preferable strategy for an extractive (literally, for a petrostate) short-term-oriented elite that can stash their loot elsewhere.

    The pacified populace does what any population does, and grows to the extent that it can afford, causing spiraling costs at a later time; by then the original extractive elites are long gone, and their replacements fight to keep the enterprise afloat for enough time to get theirs and leave, as well. Eventually, something blows out, and everything collapses, leaving European charities to pick up the pieces.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @A Literal Midget


    I have a hunch that it’s easier/cheaper to pay off your population than it is to genocide/reproductively-cripple it.
     
    It is. Or you could even say that it is easiest to cripple your population by paying it off.

    Broke: concentration camps and death marches.

    Woke: free air-conditioning and sugar drinks.

    Many a formerly hardy Bedouin tribe has succumbed.

    Actually, I don't think that Petro-governments are this Machiavellian. I think that in reality what happened is that as clans/tribes gained petro-wealth, they also became paranoid that the same thing that happened for the last 6000 years would happen again: their neighbors would steal it. So they bigged up their population every way they could.

    Only in the last generation or so did it occur to the rulers that maybe having a million surly young men divorced from their traditional way of life but without any meaningful new purpose or even real allegiance to the petro-state was not in the rulers' best interest. The Arab Spring concentrated their minds. They've been casting about for solutions ever since. In Saudi Arabia, MBS tried opening bread and circuses to the masses while looting his royal competitors. Seems to have worked for now.

  80. AP says:
    @Blade
    Russian HDI = 0.824
    Turkish HDI = 0.820

    Russian GDPPPP per capita: $29.485
    Turkish GDPPPP per capita: $32.278

    Russian skinhead: "Torkoy third world, Roshiya first world." Lol you bald role-playing assclown.

    Replies: @AP, @AltanBakshi, @songbird

    Russia is still recovering from Communism.

    Prior to Communism, Czechia had about the same per capita GDP as Austria. Even now, 30 years after the fall of Communism, it is only at 75% of Austria’s per capita GDP PPP, 3/4 to where it should naturally be. Russia’s circumstances probably reflect a similar if not even more negative skew because it experienced Communism for longer. So this would bring Russia to Spain’s level – much higher than Turkey.

    Turkey does not have the excuse of generations of Communist filth to hold itself back; its current condition is its natural one, as a respectable mid-range civilization.

    • Thanks: AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @Blade
    @AP

    Yes sure, there is always a reason when it is the other side. Russia was Communist therefore we have an excuse, Holocaust was Hitler, not Germany, Native Americans all died because of disease, Congo was the personal property of Leopold, the god damn list of excuses never ends.

    How about the fact that ~100% of Turkey's trade deficit coming from energy imports? Now imagine who would be where if Turkey had 1/10th of Russian oil/gas. Russia is where it is despite all that raw resources and energy, imagine where you would be without them -> Belarus.

    Replies: @AP, @Anatoly Karlin

    , @Dmitry
    @AP

    Turkey is now in the middle income trap, but their GDP developed successfully with quite diverse manufacturing sectors, without oil or gas - until the last decade, similar to China.

    If you consider that Turkey has a much faster growing population, yet their GDP per capita climbed in the same extent as the Russian Federation had in the upswing of the commodity supercycle of the 2000s.

    However, Turkey's growth is dependent on the growth in the EU economy. EU economy was booming between 2002-2008, and pulled Turkey upwards with it. I doubt there is such optimism for the EU economy in the 2020s, to repeat its boom of the 2000s.


    https://i.imgur.com/5i03Tcn.jpg


    its current condition is its natural one
     
    There is not exactly such a thing as "natural" income level in economics - it is dependent on things like trade, natural resources and policies, which vary depending on decade.

    Turkey's economy was booming, when the EU economy was booming (2002-2008). Their economy is set in a way that makes very dependent on neighbouring economies on which they trade.

    , @Morton's toes
    @AP

    Have you been to Catal Hoyuk or Gobekli Tepe?

    Lucky folk seem to be in control of as valuable a chunk of culture capital as exists on the planet. I hope they manage it better than the Egyptians.

    Replies: @AP, @Blade

    , @AltanBakshi
    @AP


    Turkey does not have the excuse of generations of Communist filth to hold itself back; its current condition is its natural one, as a respectable mid-range civilization.
     
    I would not be surprised if Turkey, without Islam, would be economically somewhere near the level of Greece in GDP per capita. So in my opinion AP you are somewhat wrong. During the Byzantine and Roman times Anatolian peninsula was much richer and developed than the mainland Hellas, if I recall correctly the richness of Ionia and Asia(Anatolia) was even noted by Greek authors of the Hellenic Era, before the Roman rule. Genetically most Anatolians are very similar with Armenians and Greeks.

    It's a scientific consensus that from the ancient past to present era there is no discontinuity in Anatolian genetics. No amount of Greek and Armenian wishing or self-deceiving can change the harsh reality that Anatolian turks are their close relatives.

    Replies: @Blade, @AP

  81. @AP
    @A Literal Midget


    This would, in turn, create an inferiority complex amongst some Russians, which is now being vented – i.e. resolved – due to yet another reversal of fortune (Russia’s economic rise
     
    Economically, Russia caught up to the Warsaw Pact countries in the 2000s and early 2010s but has fallen behind since then, although it has not remains economically very comfortable. Moscow is in all ways a wealthy first world city surpassing Western capitals in almost all metrics. Currently it’s per capita GDP surpasses only Bulgaria’s, among the Warsaw Pact countries.

    Replies: @A Literal Midget

    I see. Two questions:

    Is the per capita GDP catch-up/fall-off in USD terms, or in terms of purchasing power parity? Exchange rates can do funky things, especially with sanctions in play.

    (Original question) Was there a common feeling of schadenfreude amongst the Warsaw Pact countries at the reversal of Russian political and economic fortune after the Soviet collapse, and, if there was, how widespread/vocally-expressed was it?

    P.S., who is Gerhard, and why does he sound like Andrei Martyanov?

    • Replies: @AP
    @A Literal Midget


    Is the per capita GDP catch-up/fall-off in USD terms, or in terms of purchasing power parity? Exchange rates can do funky things, especially with sanctions in play.
     
    Both, although due to ruble crashing the nominal decline relative to Warsaw Pact was greater.

    (Original question) Was there a common feeling of schadenfreude amongst the Warsaw Pact countries at the reversal of Russian political and economic fortune after the Soviet collapse, and, if there was, how widespread/vocally-expressed was it
     
    My impression is that there wasn’t much. Eastern Europeans tended to see Russians as fellow victims of the evil Communist system and didn’t dislike them them as people or revel in their misery.* Russians became more disliked under Putin, when Eastern Europeans noticed that they like Putin, that many Russians have nostalgia for the USSR, that Stalin had a high % of popularity etc.

    *Baltics were a different story because unlike Poland they were subjected to the presence of Russian colonists. So Russians were dislike there.
  82. @AltanBakshi
    @songbird

    Orissa is one of the poorest regions of India, it's an extremely poor place, and it's on the coast! Well Muslim rule there was quite short, but British rule was long, just like in Bengal and Bihar, which both are poor places.

    Replies: @songbird

    I suspect Bihar is explained partly by being inland, and Bengal by being densely populated.

    Orissa is a mystery to me but I am reluctant to blame the British. In Africa, I believe colonialism is associated with higher per capita. Anyway, I’m not sure that they had good control of the tribal areas. Seems to be growing quickly now, though?

  83. Where does Indonesia rank here? IQ in the mid-80s, or maybe high 80s, with a very large population of 270mn, with a 1 trillion dollar economy, and decent industry. And has an OK military for its size.

  84. @Blade
    Russian HDI = 0.824
    Turkish HDI = 0.820

    Russian GDPPPP per capita: $29.485
    Turkish GDPPPP per capita: $32.278

    Russian skinhead: "Torkoy third world, Roshiya first world." Lol you bald role-playing assclown.

    Replies: @AP, @AltanBakshi, @songbird

    • LOL: Vishnugupta
    • Replies: @Blade
    @AltanBakshi

    Over long-term history, Turks defeated Russians far more often than Russians defeated Turks. You all want to focus post-1750, how about before that? Russia was being handled by the vassals of Turks, not even Ottomans themselves. How many times did Crimeans sack Moscow? Maybe post a few comics about those too.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @melanf, @Vishnugupta

  85. @Almost Missouri
    @Caspar von Everec


    Excellent idea on ”substracting” blacks and hispanics from whites and Asians in the US.
     
    The "fulcrum point" IQ for citizenship in a modern nation-state seems to be around 95. Above that you can nation-build. Below that and you can only stave off fissiparous collapse through various illiberal means.

    I’d add that 72 million out 80 million German population is actually white. The number of Germans is probably something of the order of 64 million.
     
    Thanks. So 8 million Slavs, Balkans, Italics, non-German Germanics (Swiss, Austrian, Dutch, Scandi)? Any idea what the non-German white composition is?

    As far as France, the white population is about 51-54 million. France has had extensive european migration, primarily from Italy and Spain for the last two centuries. The percentage of actual French, i.e Gauls, Bretons, Franks and Occitan is a mystery. Though I read an estimate that its about 40 million or so.
     
    Yeah, France is deliberately ethnic-obscurantist. Though I would count two-century old Latin immigrants as effectively French now. 11-14 million of those? That leaves another 11-14 million Arabs/Africans. That doesn't seem quite so bad as I've been hearing ... but then, higher birthrates.

    Russia is far better off that it seems. Its roughly 85% white when you count Russians, Ukrainians, Germans and Greeks. That amounts to some 124 million people. Its diversity isn’t that toxic either. The largest minority is Volga tatar who have an IQ near identical to Russians and is genetically about 70-80% Slavic.
     
    Thanks. These kinds of subtleties are the reason that I didn't venture to calculate Russia.

    The American hispanic contingent is a mixed bag. Around half of it is Castizo supposedly, 75% white(mostly Iberian) people that identify as hispanic for the diversity points. They are borderline white.
     
    Yes, "Hispanics" is bastard category peculiar to the US. It's nominally based on language (although many "Hispanics" don't actually speak Spanish) and mixes higher caste Cubans and South Americans with lower caste Central Americans, plus Dominicans and Puerto Ricans muddying things further. It is a lousy theoretical categorization, but in practice it tracks pretty well between whites and blacks.

    Japan also has significant human capital, as does Korea.

     

    Agree. On paper Japan should be more powerful than the US, though the East Asians punch above their weight compared to everyone else, they still punch somewhat below their weight compared to Europeans. OTOH, the Japanese and Koreans are on some of the most resource-poor real estate in the world.

    China however has the potential to be strong that they could take on and defeat the rest of the world combined and truly conquer and subjugate the whole planet.
     
    Yes, China is the sleeping dragon: the largest high-IQ mono-ethne in a unitary nation-state. On paper, they should be wiping the floor with the rest of us. Maybe they will, eventually.

    The CCP for its part however, has not been too successful in harnessing this potential.
     
    Well, compared to the famine-wracked dystopia of a couple generations ago, they're not doing too badly, and unlike the West, they are still on an upward trajectory.

    Replies: @Svevlad, @Pumblechook, @Caspar Von Everec

    Yes, I’d peg France at around 10 million Afro-Arabs (from Malagasy to Moroccans to Caribbeans), maybe even a little less.

    But that’s still an enormous quantity – and indeed, higher birth rates mean this group (including second generation) probably accounts for 175k-200k of the annual 725k births. Everything isn’t so black and white though, to pardon the pun – there is a large and growing mixed population in France, I know people in the following categories and all of them pass as European and are people you would want to help build a country in terms of behaviour and intelligence:

    – Breton/Kabyle
    – Berber/southern french
    – Malagasy/Italian

    Agree with the previous commenter that both Russia and the US aren’t as bad as they seem on paper due to groups like ‘Hispanics’ and ‘Tatars’ being more nuanced than most people realise

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Pumblechook


    both Russia and the US aren’t as bad as they seem on paper due to groups like ‘Hispanics’ and ‘Tatars’ being more nuanced than most people realise
     
    Yep, USAtan's future would not be so bad if there wouldn't be members of hostile academia and financial elite purposefully agitating the flames of ethnic and racial conflict there. Which is so fricking puzzling? Don't they understand that they are playing with fire? Well suits me!

    Quos Deus vult perdere, prius dementat
    , @melanf
    @Pumblechook


    Russia and the US aren’t as bad as they seem on paper due to groups like ‘Hispanics’ and ‘Tatars’
     
    The equivalent of "Hispanics" is not Tatars, but migrants from Central Asia

    Replies: @Pumblechook, @AP

    , @128
    @Pumblechook

    90 percent of Latinos in the US are basically low-end laborers right? This means their ancestry is unlikely to be largely European.

    Replies: @Pumblechook, @AP

  86. @Pumblechook
    @Almost Missouri

    Yes, I’d peg France at around 10 million Afro-Arabs (from Malagasy to Moroccans to Caribbeans), maybe even a little less.

    But that’s still an enormous quantity - and indeed, higher birth rates mean this group (including second generation) probably accounts for 175k-200k of the annual 725k births. Everything isn’t so black and white though, to pardon the pun - there is a large and growing mixed population in France, I know people in the following categories and all of them pass as European and are people you would want to help build a country in terms of behaviour and intelligence:

    - Breton/Kabyle
    - Berber/southern french
    - Malagasy/Italian

    Agree with the previous commenter that both Russia and the US aren’t as bad as they seem on paper due to groups like ‘Hispanics’ and ‘Tatars’ being more nuanced than most people realise

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @melanf, @128

    both Russia and the US aren’t as bad as they seem on paper due to groups like ‘Hispanics’ and ‘Tatars’ being more nuanced than most people realise

    Yep, USAtan’s future would not be so bad if there wouldn’t be members of hostile academia and financial elite purposefully agitating the flames of ethnic and racial conflict there. Which is so fricking puzzling? Don’t they understand that they are playing with fire? Well suits me!

    Quos Deus vult perdere, prius dementat

  87. @reiner Tor
    Hungarians’ view of Ukraine is greatly influenced by Subcarpathia. (Based on Hungary, where Budapest is richer, people usually accurately assume Kiev to be richer than the rest of the country.) Now this is one of the poorest regions of Ukraine, but it is not usually assumed to be so, see my next point.

    Since Eastern Hungary is poorer, it was extrapolated to the former USSR, and in the 1990s there was a widespread belief that Russia would be even poorer than Ukraine (and thus Subcarpathia). Since then many people have learned that Russia is richer than Ukraine “because of oil,” but it’s still often believed to be much less developed than Hungary (reality is maybe 15-20% lower GDP per capita).

    Replies: @Felix Keverich, @Dmitry

    In 2012, (which does not seem like a long time ago for me), GDP per capita was actually higher in Russia than in Hungary and Poland in some measurements.

    The difference has re-emerged just in the last few years, where Orban has been economically successful and attracted a lot of foreign investments (although sadly for Hungary’s old people – pandemically incompetent political leadership) while the Russian income has stagnated due to fall in the world commodity prices.

    Hungarian is afflicted by a strong sense of inferiority relative to real Europeans

    That must be painful for Hungary, when their ex-husband Austria climbed into the wealthiest countries in the world, while their own incomes closer the Balkan hinterlands they used to rule.

  88. @Pumblechook
    @Almost Missouri

    Yes, I’d peg France at around 10 million Afro-Arabs (from Malagasy to Moroccans to Caribbeans), maybe even a little less.

    But that’s still an enormous quantity - and indeed, higher birth rates mean this group (including second generation) probably accounts for 175k-200k of the annual 725k births. Everything isn’t so black and white though, to pardon the pun - there is a large and growing mixed population in France, I know people in the following categories and all of them pass as European and are people you would want to help build a country in terms of behaviour and intelligence:

    - Breton/Kabyle
    - Berber/southern french
    - Malagasy/Italian

    Agree with the previous commenter that both Russia and the US aren’t as bad as they seem on paper due to groups like ‘Hispanics’ and ‘Tatars’ being more nuanced than most people realise

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @melanf, @128

    Russia and the US aren’t as bad as they seem on paper due to groups like ‘Hispanics’ and ‘Tatars’

    The equivalent of “Hispanics” is not Tatars, but migrants from Central Asia

    • Replies: @Pumblechook
    @melanf

    In labour market dynamics and social standing yes agreed, but that wasn’t my point - rather I’m saying that both in the US and Russia there are large groups numbering in the millions (Tatars, Hispanics but also I guess groups like Lebanese Christians or Georgians) which on paper give the ‘mental impression’ of a non-European element which is in rigid contrast to the majority European population.

    However, this is not always so clear-cut and there is overlapping and leakage across these groups - for instance, there are of course many millions of Hispanics who are either totally Spanish/Italian in origin or Tatars who look and act almost entirely Russian and intermarry with children being absorbed into Russian ethnic.

    Replies: @128, @melanf, @EldnahYm

    , @AP
    @melanf

    There aren’t many Moldovans in Russia, but they would be a closer analogue than Central Asians because they speak another Indo-European language and are not of a different faith.

  89. @reiner Tor
    @Felix Keverich


    Inferiority complex itself is a product of Western-centric worldview, and thus correlates with pro-Western politics. It’s most present in Eastern European liberals and svidomy types, which is basically Hungarian political spectrum. Russian vatniks are not afflicted by it. Vatniks are emotionally healthier individuals.
     
    Then you must be something else, not a vatnik, because you seem to harbor deep insecurities yourself. Chill out dude, Hungary is like 7% the size of Russia (in terms of population), you don’t need to care so deeply about what Hungarians think.

    The idea that “going east means poorer” doesn’t come from any particular data set
     
    Well within Hungary it’s certainly true that the westernmost big cities like Szombathely, Sopron or Győr are significantly richer than the easternmost big cities like Miskolc, Debrecen, Szeged or Nyíregyháza. Of our neighbors the westernmost one, Austria is also by far the richest. The easternmost Ukraine is the poorest. Slovakia to the north (in between the two) is in between in terms of wealth as well. Of our southern neighbors Austria is richer than Slovenia, which is richer than Croatia, which is richer than Serbia and Romania, which are both richer than Ukraine, so the only exception to the rule is Romania being richer than Serbia. But even there it wasn’t true before the early 1990s.

    Replies: @Bies Podkrakowski, @AP, @Kazan, @Beckow

    The geography of wealth is only partially on east-to-west or south-to-north vectors. It has more to do with how close a region is to the center of the prevailing economic power.

    In Europe wealth peaks in the economic core of London-Benelux-Paris-Lyon-Switzerland-northern Italy and western Germany. That core has been more developed and richer for centuries. At times more marginal regions like Midlands, Berlin-Silesia, even Vienna-Prague-Budapest caught up, but that was driven by local specifics and long periods of peace. There are exceptions (e.g. Stockholm) but in general a region’s wealth based on how close it is to the European core area.

    Inside countries we see the same dynamic on a smaller scale: Subcarpathia has always been remote from the center – today Kiev, but before Prague-Budapest-Vienna, Western Hungary, e.g. Gyor (great city) is closer to the European core region, to Vienna and Budapest. Prague dominates Czechia, the south-west Slovakia around is 2.5 times richer than the east. It is also true about Moscow in Russia, Chinese east coast cities.

    This reflects a little appreciated core attribute of wealth: wealth is what the powerful people say it is. Powers tend to live in geographic centers and are able to produce or assign wealth. Lately often only as fiat wealth; they declare that something, some note, are valuable and the rest of the world follows. It could be low self-esteem or simple conformity, but people follow and validate the central wealth creators. And the core prospers.

    The point of this post was how people use obsolete data in their mental models of reality.

    That makes change hard. But change happens, over time realities on the ground prevail, virtual models are discarded and people rediscover that wealth is what they can consume in their lives, what is available to them – more or less physically. At that point centers often collapse and mental models readjust. In the meantime living well and using simple arbitrage to game the flaws in the prevailing mental models is probably the best individual strategy.

    • Replies: @Yellowface Anon
    @Beckow


    over time realities on the ground prevail, virtual models are discarded and people rediscover that wealth is what they can consume in their lives, what is available to them – more or less physically. At that point centers often collapse and mental models readjust.
     
    This is an argument against economic overcomplexity and the terminal stage of capitalism we're living in. Some sort of degrowth (or reversing overdevelopment) is good for the individual and the local (and probably inevitable now that globalist elites are imposing their version of "right-sizing" the global economy to prepare for the post-human economic system), but not for the reason the main proponents of degrowth argue.

    Replies: @Beckow

  90. @AP
    @Blade

    Russia is still recovering from Communism.

    Prior to Communism, Czechia had about the same per capita GDP as Austria. Even now, 30 years after the fall of Communism, it is only at 75% of Austria’s per capita GDP PPP, 3/4 to where it should naturally be. Russia’s circumstances probably reflect a similar if not even more negative skew because it experienced Communism for longer. So this would bring Russia to Spain’s level - much higher than Turkey.

    Turkey does not have the excuse of generations of Communist filth to hold itself back; its current condition is its natural one, as a respectable mid-range civilization.

    Replies: @Blade, @Dmitry, @Morton's toes, @AltanBakshi

    Yes sure, there is always a reason when it is the other side. Russia was Communist therefore we have an excuse, Holocaust was Hitler, not Germany, Native Americans all died because of disease, Congo was the personal property of Leopold, the god damn list of excuses never ends.

    How about the fact that ~100% of Turkey’s trade deficit coming from energy imports? Now imagine who would be where if Turkey had 1/10th of Russian oil/gas. Russia is where it is despite all that raw resources and energy, imagine where you would be without them -> Belarus.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Blade


    Russia was Communist therefore we have an excuse
     
    Communism impoverishes and sets back every place it touches, not only Russia. Compare the Koreas, the Germanies, Czechia and Hungary to Austria. So clearly it is a Communism problem, not a Russian problem, an explanation and not an “excuse.”

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon

    , @Anatoly Karlin
    @Blade

    Cope. Seethe. Dilate.



    https://twitter.com/guineboud/status/1386259620038017025

    https://twitter.com/derinhisse/status/1386029902047195137

    Replies: @4Dchessmaster, @Blade, @Pericles

  91. @AltanBakshi
    @Blade

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/8/84/Russian_poster.JPG/1280px-Russian_poster.JPG

    Replies: @Blade

    Over long-term history, Turks defeated Russians far more often than Russians defeated Turks. You all want to focus post-1750, how about before that? Russia was being handled by the vassals of Turks, not even Ottomans themselves. How many times did Crimeans sack Moscow? Maybe post a few comics about those too.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Blade


    vassals of Turks, not even Ottomans themselves
     
    From the late 16th century onwards Ottomans usually sent large Janissary contingents North of the Black sea, and most strategic fortresses, like Azov, Özu and Akkerman were under a direct Ottoman control.
    , @melanf
    @Blade


    Over long-term history, Turks defeated Russians far more often than Russians defeated Turks.
     
    This is nonsense. The first clash with Turkey in the 16th century (the campaign of the Turks on Astrakhan) ended with the annihilation of the sultan's army. The second major clash (the war of the Turks with the Don Cossacks for Azov) was also extremely unsuccessful for the Turks. Then there was the war for Chigirin (actually a draw), the War for Azov (lost by Turkey), the Prut campaign of Peter the Great (Turkish victory), and the war of 1732-35 (heavy defeat of Turkey). As you can see your statement is incorrect


    Russia was being handled by the vassals of Turks, not even Ottomans themselves. How many times did Crimeans sack Moscow?
     
    Not once (in 1571, the Tatars were able to cause a fire in wooden Moscow, but Moscow was not captured)

    Barbary pirates can serve as an analogue of the Crimean Tatars. Can we say that the Ottomans were stronger in the 18th century than England, as barbarian pirates plundered English ships?

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    , @Vishnugupta
    @Blade

    Russians permanently neutered the Turks as a significant military force on par with other European countries of comparable population.

    The long term effects on the Turkish nation are both physical as well as psychological. Deep down inside Turks realize they just don't really have anything that was once present and try to cover it up by making a lot of noise and engaging in grandstanding both in their individual capacity as well as a nation.

    But we can all see through this..

    Replies: @Blade

  92. @AP
    @Blade

    Russia is still recovering from Communism.

    Prior to Communism, Czechia had about the same per capita GDP as Austria. Even now, 30 years after the fall of Communism, it is only at 75% of Austria’s per capita GDP PPP, 3/4 to where it should naturally be. Russia’s circumstances probably reflect a similar if not even more negative skew because it experienced Communism for longer. So this would bring Russia to Spain’s level - much higher than Turkey.

    Turkey does not have the excuse of generations of Communist filth to hold itself back; its current condition is its natural one, as a respectable mid-range civilization.

    Replies: @Blade, @Dmitry, @Morton's toes, @AltanBakshi

    Turkey is now in the middle income trap, but their GDP developed successfully with quite diverse manufacturing sectors, without oil or gas – until the last decade, similar to China.

    If you consider that Turkey has a much faster growing population, yet their GDP per capita climbed in the same extent as the Russian Federation had in the upswing of the commodity supercycle of the 2000s.

    However, Turkey’s growth is dependent on the growth in the EU economy. EU economy was booming between 2002-2008, and pulled Turkey upwards with it. I doubt there is such optimism for the EU economy in the 2020s, to repeat its boom of the 2000s.

    its current condition is its natural one

    There is not exactly such a thing as “natural” income level in economics – it is dependent on things like trade, natural resources and policies, which vary depending on decade.

    Turkey’s economy was booming, when the EU economy was booming (2002-2008). Their economy is set in a way that makes very dependent on neighbouring economies on which they trade.

  93. @Blade
    Russian HDI = 0.824
    Turkish HDI = 0.820

    Russian GDPPPP per capita: $29.485
    Turkish GDPPPP per capita: $32.278

    Russian skinhead: "Torkoy third world, Roshiya first world." Lol you bald role-playing assclown.

    Replies: @AP, @AltanBakshi, @songbird

    Moscow and St. Petersburg seem like better places to live than Istanbul.

    As to the first world: IMO, the only currently fully first world country is Japan. I don’t think the US should be considered to be first world anymore.

    Of course, that creates its own problems about where to rank it. It wouldn’t do to call it “second world”, and yet I think “first and third world mixed” really loses something – that is what you might have with apartheid or segregation or non-universal suffrage. By themselves, price barriers in real estate only offer minimal protection to a lot of negative factors.

    I wish the Japanese would develop a country-ranking scale to shame the woke West.

    • Replies: @Yellowface Anon
    @songbird

    Hugh stretches of Japanese rural areas are more dilapidated than Flyover Country.

    Replies: @Wency

  94. @Blade
    @AltanBakshi

    Over long-term history, Turks defeated Russians far more often than Russians defeated Turks. You all want to focus post-1750, how about before that? Russia was being handled by the vassals of Turks, not even Ottomans themselves. How many times did Crimeans sack Moscow? Maybe post a few comics about those too.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @melanf, @Vishnugupta

    vassals of Turks, not even Ottomans themselves

    From the late 16th century onwards Ottomans usually sent large Janissary contingents North of the Black sea, and most strategic fortresses, like Azov, Özu and Akkerman were under a direct Ottoman control.

  95. @melanf
    @Pumblechook


    Russia and the US aren’t as bad as they seem on paper due to groups like ‘Hispanics’ and ‘Tatars’
     
    The equivalent of "Hispanics" is not Tatars, but migrants from Central Asia

    Replies: @Pumblechook, @AP

    In labour market dynamics and social standing yes agreed, but that wasn’t my point – rather I’m saying that both in the US and Russia there are large groups numbering in the millions (Tatars, Hispanics but also I guess groups like Lebanese Christians or Georgians) which on paper give the ‘mental impression’ of a non-European element which is in rigid contrast to the majority European population.

    However, this is not always so clear-cut and there is overlapping and leakage across these groups – for instance, there are of course many millions of Hispanics who are either totally Spanish/Italian in origin or Tatars who look and act almost entirely Russian and intermarry with children being absorbed into Russian ethnic.

    • Replies: @128
    @Pumblechook

    90 percent of Latinos in the US are low-end laborers. Middle class and above Latinos in Lati American are unlikely to immigrate to the US.

    Replies: @AP, @songbird, @Almost Missouri

    , @melanf
    @Pumblechook


    (Tatars, Hispanics but also I guess groups like Lebanese Christians or Georgians) which on paper give the ‘mental impression’ of a non-European element which is in rigid contrast to the majority European population.
     
    Here is a group photo of Kazan Tatars

    https://s41.radikal.ru/i094/1008/da/d5592ecb9344.jpg

    They cannot be called a "non-European element". The same applies to education, culture, etc.

    Replies: @Pumblechook

    , @EldnahYm
    @Pumblechook


    However, this is not always so clear-cut and there is overlapping and leakage across these groups – for instance, there are of course many millions of Hispanics who are either totally Spanish/Italian in origin
     
    You're wrong. Even "white Hispanic" countries like Argentina are significantly mixed with Amerindians. Look at genetic studies if you don't believe me. There are very few Hispanics who are totally Spanish or Italian. If I take a trip to Brazil, I would probably have an easier time finding purebred Germans than I would for Portuguese.

    Italians Americans are swine whose largest contribution to American culture has been in the sphere of crime. The result of more "white Hispanic" immigration is that instead of Italians mixing with people of Germanic/Celtic extraction, which at least creates a diluted Italian mix, you get more Italians mixing with Latinos. It's a race to the bottom.

    Why people think the corrupt "White Hispanics" of Latin America are in any way desirable is itself puzzling. These people have a horrible track record of running countries.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon, @Pumblechook

  96. @Blade
    @AltanBakshi

    Over long-term history, Turks defeated Russians far more often than Russians defeated Turks. You all want to focus post-1750, how about before that? Russia was being handled by the vassals of Turks, not even Ottomans themselves. How many times did Crimeans sack Moscow? Maybe post a few comics about those too.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @melanf, @Vishnugupta

    Over long-term history, Turks defeated Russians far more often than Russians defeated Turks.

    This is nonsense. The first clash with Turkey in the 16th century (the campaign of the Turks on Astrakhan) ended with the annihilation of the sultan’s army. The second major clash (the war of the Turks with the Don Cossacks for Azov) was also extremely unsuccessful for the Turks. Then there was the war for Chigirin (actually a draw), the War for Azov (lost by Turkey), the Prut campaign of Peter the Great (Turkish victory), and the war of 1732-35 (heavy defeat of Turkey). As you can see your statement is incorrect

    Russia was being handled by the vassals of Turks, not even Ottomans themselves. How many times did Crimeans sack Moscow?

    Not once (in 1571, the Tatars were able to cause a fire in wooden Moscow, but Moscow was not captured)

    Barbary pirates can serve as an analogue of the Crimean Tatars. Can we say that the Ottomans were stronger in the 18th century than England, as barbarian pirates plundered English ships?

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @melanf

    I wholeheartedly agree with the most of your post, except this:


    Barbary pirates can serve as an analogue of the Crimean Tatars. Can we say that the Ottomans were stronger in the 18th century than England, as barbarian pirates plundered English ships?
     
    England wasn't such a superpower in the 18th century, like it was in the 19th, and Ottomans were militarily still quite equal with the European powers.
  97. @Pumblechook
    @Almost Missouri

    Yes, I’d peg France at around 10 million Afro-Arabs (from Malagasy to Moroccans to Caribbeans), maybe even a little less.

    But that’s still an enormous quantity - and indeed, higher birth rates mean this group (including second generation) probably accounts for 175k-200k of the annual 725k births. Everything isn’t so black and white though, to pardon the pun - there is a large and growing mixed population in France, I know people in the following categories and all of them pass as European and are people you would want to help build a country in terms of behaviour and intelligence:

    - Breton/Kabyle
    - Berber/southern french
    - Malagasy/Italian

    Agree with the previous commenter that both Russia and the US aren’t as bad as they seem on paper due to groups like ‘Hispanics’ and ‘Tatars’ being more nuanced than most people realise

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @melanf, @128

    90 percent of Latinos in the US are basically low-end laborers right? This means their ancestry is unlikely to be largely European.

    • Replies: @Pumblechook
    @128

    90% is overstating things. All we can go on is statistics and observations - 66% of Hispanic Americans identify as ‘white’.

    Now I think we would both agree there is no chance that 2/3 of Latins in the states are ‘white’ (if we define that as 85%+ European) but out of a total 60-million I would say it’s reasonable to say approx 10 million fall into that category and more if you include the millions of ‘mixed’ people with Hispanic and Anglo/Slav/Italo parents. It’s underreported but the highest US ‘inter ethnic’ marriage combination is non-Hispanic white male with Hispanic woman of any race.

    I won’t ramble on since I’ve written about this before if you care enough to check my comment history.

    , @AP
    @128

    The sample of this study of Mexican-Americans was 57% European genetic contribution, 39% Native contribution, and 4% African descent:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3131689/

    Native ancestry in Mexico varies by region and northern Mexico and central highlands contributed to immigration to the US:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/c9/Geographic_ancestry_distribution_of_Mexico.png

  98. @Pumblechook
    @melanf

    In labour market dynamics and social standing yes agreed, but that wasn’t my point - rather I’m saying that both in the US and Russia there are large groups numbering in the millions (Tatars, Hispanics but also I guess groups like Lebanese Christians or Georgians) which on paper give the ‘mental impression’ of a non-European element which is in rigid contrast to the majority European population.

    However, this is not always so clear-cut and there is overlapping and leakage across these groups - for instance, there are of course many millions of Hispanics who are either totally Spanish/Italian in origin or Tatars who look and act almost entirely Russian and intermarry with children being absorbed into Russian ethnic.

    Replies: @128, @melanf, @EldnahYm

    90 percent of Latinos in the US are low-end laborers. Middle class and above Latinos in Lati American are unlikely to immigrate to the US.

    • Replies: @AP
    @128


    Middle class and above Latinos in Lati American are unlikely to immigrate to the US.
     
    True of Mexicans but not true of Cubans, Venezuelans, etc. Their upper and middle classes come to the USA.

    Also, the really impoverished Latinos tend not to leave because they don’t have the money to pay smugglers nor the wherewithal to successfully undertake the journey; they tend to be working class rather than poor. Much of the Mexican immigration has consisted of small farmers or small shopkeeper types.

    Replies: @Pericles

    , @songbird
    @128

    The observational decline of America, and especially of California, seems to contrast this "Latinos aren't so bad" or "are almost white" line-of-thinking, which AP and some others seem to favor.

    I might also say that future, state-level predictions are pretty bleak, even if one counts 10-20% of Latinos as "white." And CRT means that any lower-performing group will embrace the racial narrative which confers them status.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    , @Almost Missouri
    @128


    Middle class and above Latinos in Lati American are unlikely to immigrate to the US.
     
    Depends. Whenever a Latin American country gets taken over by Leftists (e.g., Cuba, Venezuela), its middle- and upper-class flee to the US en masse, and typically become American rightists. And there's plenty of ordinary background immigration by the middle class just seeking higher wages in the US for their skills (e.g., engineers, accountants). Among the upper class, they don't exactly immigrate so much as establish a US residence, second home and bank accounts/investments, so that if their family is on the losing end of the next coup/revolution/civil war, they have a first world bolt hole prepared.

    But yes, the majority of immigration, certainly the majority of illegal immigration, is low-end labor. I don't know if it is 90% though. The middle class immigrants are less evident in the US because they assimilate pretty well. The upper class immigrants are less evident because they don't want to be noticed.

    Replies: @EldnahYm

  99. If the CIA Factbook was worth its salt, it would tell us in which countries gays and trannies have the most power. And, perhaps, where they are the most concentrated. (some countries take in deviants as “refugees”)

    Also, blacks.

  100. @melanf
    @Blade


    Over long-term history, Turks defeated Russians far more often than Russians defeated Turks.
     
    This is nonsense. The first clash with Turkey in the 16th century (the campaign of the Turks on Astrakhan) ended with the annihilation of the sultan's army. The second major clash (the war of the Turks with the Don Cossacks for Azov) was also extremely unsuccessful for the Turks. Then there was the war for Chigirin (actually a draw), the War for Azov (lost by Turkey), the Prut campaign of Peter the Great (Turkish victory), and the war of 1732-35 (heavy defeat of Turkey). As you can see your statement is incorrect


    Russia was being handled by the vassals of Turks, not even Ottomans themselves. How many times did Crimeans sack Moscow?
     
    Not once (in 1571, the Tatars were able to cause a fire in wooden Moscow, but Moscow was not captured)

    Barbary pirates can serve as an analogue of the Crimean Tatars. Can we say that the Ottomans were stronger in the 18th century than England, as barbarian pirates plundered English ships?

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    I wholeheartedly agree with the most of your post, except this:

    Barbary pirates can serve as an analogue of the Crimean Tatars. Can we say that the Ottomans were stronger in the 18th century than England, as barbarian pirates plundered English ships?

    England wasn’t such a superpower in the 18th century, like it was in the 19th, and Ottomans were militarily still quite equal with the European powers.

  101. Here in S. California, a general contractor I know became a multi-millionaire by expanding the occupancy capacity of residences. When L.A. decided to give drivers licenses to migrants, twice as many people showed up as had been expected. No one knows the actual population of S. California. I suspect the same is true of the U.S. as a whole. Or, if someone knows, he’s certainly not saying, and will never say.

  102. @Blade
    @AP

    Yes sure, there is always a reason when it is the other side. Russia was Communist therefore we have an excuse, Holocaust was Hitler, not Germany, Native Americans all died because of disease, Congo was the personal property of Leopold, the god damn list of excuses never ends.

    How about the fact that ~100% of Turkey's trade deficit coming from energy imports? Now imagine who would be where if Turkey had 1/10th of Russian oil/gas. Russia is where it is despite all that raw resources and energy, imagine where you would be without them -> Belarus.

    Replies: @AP, @Anatoly Karlin

    Russia was Communist therefore we have an excuse

    Communism impoverishes and sets back every place it touches, not only Russia. Compare the Koreas, the Germanies, Czechia and Hungary to Austria. So clearly it is a Communism problem, not a Russian problem, an explanation and not an “excuse.”

    • Replies: @Yellowface Anon
    @AP

    It's actually more nuanced than this. Best Korea was actually more developed industrially than South Korea until Pak's coup, but they were rebuilding on a pre-war industrial base established by the Japanese. Austria has always been much wealthier than Hungary even in Habsburg times, and until WWI Czechia too. But the argument holds for East Germany and Czechia, the most industrialized parts of the Eastern bloc which would be at the level of their capitalist neighbors.

    Bear in mind Britain had growth rates comparable to the Eastern Bloc, which ended up poorer than France and West Germany in 1980 from the vantage point of Scandinavia and Switzerland immediately post-war. Those were the years with strong central planning and the Empire seized by the Americans. Also Yugoslavia had respectable growth rates on paper until 1980 with its market socialism (Slovenia nearly converged with Austria by 1980 and diverged afterwards).

    Soviet-style central planning has a colossal knowledge problem that (from a libertarian standpoint, but also true from other free market economic theories) could never resolve without turning into its antithesis (decentralized market decision-making or Smith's "invisible hand").

    Replies: @Boomthorkell, @AP

  103. AP says:
    @128
    @Pumblechook

    90 percent of Latinos in the US are low-end laborers. Middle class and above Latinos in Lati American are unlikely to immigrate to the US.

    Replies: @AP, @songbird, @Almost Missouri

    Middle class and above Latinos in Lati American are unlikely to immigrate to the US.

    True of Mexicans but not true of Cubans, Venezuelans, etc. Their upper and middle classes come to the USA.

    Also, the really impoverished Latinos tend not to leave because they don’t have the money to pay smugglers nor the wherewithal to successfully undertake the journey; they tend to be working class rather than poor. Much of the Mexican immigration has consisted of small farmers or small shopkeeper types.

    • Replies: @Pericles
    @AP


    Also, the really impoverished Latinos tend not to leave because they don’t have the money to pay smugglers nor the wherewithal to successfully undertake the journey

     

    I believe the custom is to take a loan to make the trip, or perhaps get chain migrated at a later stage.

    Replies: @songbird

  104. @Pumblechook
    @melanf

    In labour market dynamics and social standing yes agreed, but that wasn’t my point - rather I’m saying that both in the US and Russia there are large groups numbering in the millions (Tatars, Hispanics but also I guess groups like Lebanese Christians or Georgians) which on paper give the ‘mental impression’ of a non-European element which is in rigid contrast to the majority European population.

    However, this is not always so clear-cut and there is overlapping and leakage across these groups - for instance, there are of course many millions of Hispanics who are either totally Spanish/Italian in origin or Tatars who look and act almost entirely Russian and intermarry with children being absorbed into Russian ethnic.

    Replies: @128, @melanf, @EldnahYm

    (Tatars, Hispanics but also I guess groups like Lebanese Christians or Georgians) which on paper give the ‘mental impression’ of a non-European element which is in rigid contrast to the majority European population.

    Here is a group photo of Kazan Tatars

    They cannot be called a “non-European element”. The same applies to education, culture, etc.

    • Replies: @Pumblechook
    @melanf

    Ok will clarify one last time - I’m not disagreeing with you. My point refers to armchair statisticians who would look at Russian demographics on Wikipedia and see “tatars - 5% of population” and think this is some kind of asiatic entirely non-European group...without the knowledge that in reality, many tatars can and do blend into modern Russian so that a tourist may not even know whom they have met in Kazan or Moscow...like the people in your photo

    Replies: @melanf

  105. @Blade
    @AltanBakshi

    Over long-term history, Turks defeated Russians far more often than Russians defeated Turks. You all want to focus post-1750, how about before that? Russia was being handled by the vassals of Turks, not even Ottomans themselves. How many times did Crimeans sack Moscow? Maybe post a few comics about those too.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @melanf, @Vishnugupta

    Russians permanently neutered the Turks as a significant military force on par with other European countries of comparable population.

    The long term effects on the Turkish nation are both physical as well as psychological. Deep down inside Turks realize they just don’t really have anything that was once present and try to cover it up by making a lot of noise and engaging in grandstanding both in their individual capacity as well as a nation.

    But we can all see through this..

    • Replies: @Blade
    @Vishnugupta

    Aren't you supposed to be shitting on the streets? That's healthier than commenting nonsense on the internet. For a slave people, who had been slaves for centuries (to no one other than the great Turks first, then for a shorter time to Brits) until Britain finally decided to let you go, you sure talk big.

    Replies: @Vishnugupta

  106. @128
    @Pumblechook

    90 percent of Latinos in the US are low-end laborers. Middle class and above Latinos in Lati American are unlikely to immigrate to the US.

    Replies: @AP, @songbird, @Almost Missouri

    The observational decline of America, and especially of California, seems to contrast this “Latinos aren’t so bad” or “are almost white” line-of-thinking, which AP and some others seem to favor.

    I might also say that future, state-level predictions are pretty bleak, even if one counts 10-20% of Latinos as “white.” And CRT means that any lower-performing group will embrace the racial narrative which confers them status.

    • Replies: @AnonFromTN
    @songbird

    Most Latinos tend to be uneducated, but they do work. My area around the pool and spa was redone by Latinos. My roof was changed by Latinos. Some of my trees were cut and others trimmed by Latinos. In a place where I wash my car 80+% of workers are Latinos. Cleaning staff in most US hotels and motels are Latinas. This is in sharp contrast to another group of woefully uneducated people we all know, who only look for freebies (be it welfare or “reparations”) and prefer criminal activities to honest work.

    Replies: @songbird

  107. @Caspar Von Everec
    Population matters, only when you scale it up in consideration of bio-capital. Having a population of 100 million whites is a blessing, its what allowed the US to become a superpower after all. Having a population 100 million blacks is a curse.

    The entire 1.3 billion strong continent of Africa has contributed less to science, technology, art, culture and literature than the puny 17 million strong country of Holland. Even most of what passes for ''African'' intellectual output is mostly the product of whites living in Africa, mostly in South Africa.

    Having 100s of millions of low iq blacks, inbred arabs and sub-human dravidians is not a blessing. India for example should be a world power considering it has 120-180 million 110+ IQ brahmins. But the country despite 7 decades of independence and enlightened liberal rule has remained a backwater.

    It rarely produces elite science, its industrial productivity ages behind that of China and 60% of its population is still composed of penniless farmers and day laborers. The addition of hundreds of millions of dravidians to the population has only had a negative effect on India's fortunes.

    A lot of people seem to believe that the Brazilian favela society is a blueprint for success in the future. Particularly Richard Spencer and the FBI/Marxnats of twitter. Whites, Asians, Brahmins and Jews would rule over vast a negro-mestizoid population that does little other than manual labor and collect welfare checks.

    They reckon that such a society can still continue to be a superpower and produce elite science and maintain world class institutions. Its essentially official American policy as outlined by all the CIA-aligned think tanks like the Brookings institute.

    They'll import a billion salvadorians and Nigerians to keep a level footing with China and maintain a colossal GDP. While importing all of Nigeria may marginally improve GDP, it will catastrophically reduce state power.

    These populations contribute nothing to the increasingly cognitive economy where physical labor is more and more obsolete due to automation. They only commit crime, eat up the money of the productive population, exhaust natural resources, create squalor and generally bring the level of society down.

    The brahmins of India might've been a world superpower if they had a country exclusively for themselves. But since they have to live with australoids, the quality of the society collapses across the board. Corruption, incompetence, religious backwardness, violence, resource leeching and a general pervasiveness of low standards hemorrhage the country.

    Its the same with Brazil. Brazil has 5-10 million Germans, some 20 million North Italians and some 3 million Japanese.

    When looking at raw numbers of high iq populations, Brazil has a high intellect fraction of at least 30 million. So by all rights, their intellectual output should be greater or at least equal to that of Scandinavia. Yet, the reality could not be more different.

    I think its obvious that addition of low functioning populations drastically reduces the intellectual output and overall state power of a nation. After all, America in 1990 was far more functional and capable that America today. Even though it had a 100 million fewer people, it was 70-75% white. At that age, general competence and power projection were far greater.

    Today America has the same number of whites but only at 56%. Consequently, America today is far less functional and has far less of an ability to project power than before.

    I think there should be some study into this matter as to how much a low IQ population reduces the overall state power of a country.

    There should also be some efforts to make a list of countries by biocapital, i.e how much useful population does a country have? Holland has a 12th of Nigeria's population, but it has vastly more useful people that can contribute positively to cvilization and state power.

    My rough ranking would be:

    1. China
    2. United States
    3. Japan
    4. India/Germany
    6. Britain
    7. Russia
    8. France
    9. Italy
    10. Indonesia/Brazil.

    Replies: @Caspar Von Everec, @reiner Tor, @Svevlad, @Almost Missouri, @Gorgeous George, @Some Guy, @SZ, @AlexanderGrozny, @Boomthorkell, @James N. Kennett, @Ron Unz

    Having 100s of millions of low iq blacks, inbred arabs and sub-human dravidians is not a blessing. India for example should be a world power considering it has 120-180 million 110+ IQ brahmins. But the country despite 7 decades of independence and enlightened liberal rule has remained a backwater.

    You do realise that India is the third largest economy in the world, has it’s own space program, nuclear weapons, the third largest army and is a leader in science and technology?

    • Replies: @Another German Reader
    @AlexanderGrozny

    Quantity has its' own quality.

    But still low income people in similar countries like Vietnam, Phillipines are better off.

    It would not be a surprise if India ends up stratified like Brazil.

    Replies: @Blade

  108. @128
    @Pumblechook

    90 percent of Latinos in the US are basically low-end laborers right? This means their ancestry is unlikely to be largely European.

    Replies: @Pumblechook, @AP

    90% is overstating things. All we can go on is statistics and observations – 66% of Hispanic Americans identify as ‘white’.

    Now I think we would both agree there is no chance that 2/3 of Latins in the states are ‘white’ (if we define that as 85%+ European) but out of a total 60-million I would say it’s reasonable to say approx 10 million fall into that category and more if you include the millions of ‘mixed’ people with Hispanic and Anglo/Slav/Italo parents. It’s underreported but the highest US ‘inter ethnic’ marriage combination is non-Hispanic white male with Hispanic woman of any race.

    I won’t ramble on since I’ve written about this before if you care enough to check my comment history.

  109. AP says:
    @128
    @Pumblechook

    90 percent of Latinos in the US are basically low-end laborers right? This means their ancestry is unlikely to be largely European.

    Replies: @Pumblechook, @AP

    The sample of this study of Mexican-Americans was 57% European genetic contribution, 39% Native contribution, and 4% African descent:

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3131689/

    Native ancestry in Mexico varies by region and northern Mexico and central highlands contributed to immigration to the US:

  110. @melanf
    @Pumblechook


    (Tatars, Hispanics but also I guess groups like Lebanese Christians or Georgians) which on paper give the ‘mental impression’ of a non-European element which is in rigid contrast to the majority European population.
     
    Here is a group photo of Kazan Tatars

    https://s41.radikal.ru/i094/1008/da/d5592ecb9344.jpg

    They cannot be called a "non-European element". The same applies to education, culture, etc.

    Replies: @Pumblechook

    Ok will clarify one last time – I’m not disagreeing with you. My point refers to armchair statisticians who would look at Russian demographics on Wikipedia and see “tatars – 5% of population” and think this is some kind of asiatic entirely non-European group…without the knowledge that in reality, many tatars can and do blend into modern Russian so that a tourist may not even know whom they have met in Kazan or Moscow…like the people in your photo

    • Replies: @melanf
    @Pumblechook


    look at Russian demographics on Wikipedia and see “tatars – 5% of population” and think this is some kind of asiatic entirely non-European group…
     
    Well, this is true, but "non-European" peoples represent other ethnic groups (not Tatars). There are places where "Asian" (according to the American classification) ethnic groups make up the majority.

    https://egov-buryatia.ru/upload/iblock/3db/3db78259c7df5d24cdcf64c10960609f.jpeg

    https://vilcollege.ru/wp-content/uploads/2016/10/IMG_4710.jpg

    But it will be more of a distant analogue of the American Indians in the United States and Canada, not Hispanic
  111. @songbird
    @128

    The observational decline of America, and especially of California, seems to contrast this "Latinos aren't so bad" or "are almost white" line-of-thinking, which AP and some others seem to favor.

    I might also say that future, state-level predictions are pretty bleak, even if one counts 10-20% of Latinos as "white." And CRT means that any lower-performing group will embrace the racial narrative which confers them status.

    Replies: @AnonFromTN

    Most Latinos tend to be uneducated, but they do work. My area around the pool and spa was redone by Latinos. My roof was changed by Latinos. Some of my trees were cut and others trimmed by Latinos. In a place where I wash my car 80+% of workers are Latinos. Cleaning staff in most US hotels and motels are Latinas. This is in sharp contrast to another group of woefully uneducated people we all know, who only look for freebies (be it welfare or “reparations”) and prefer criminal activities to honest work.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @AnonFromTN

    I believe there are lots of hardworking people in the third world, but it is still the third world.

  112. @Blade
    @AP

    Yes sure, there is always a reason when it is the other side. Russia was Communist therefore we have an excuse, Holocaust was Hitler, not Germany, Native Americans all died because of disease, Congo was the personal property of Leopold, the god damn list of excuses never ends.

    How about the fact that ~100% of Turkey's trade deficit coming from energy imports? Now imagine who would be where if Turkey had 1/10th of Russian oil/gas. Russia is where it is despite all that raw resources and energy, imagine where you would be without them -> Belarus.

    Replies: @AP, @Anatoly Karlin

    Cope. Seethe. Dilate.

    [MORE]

    https://twitter.com/guineboud/status/1386259620038017025

    • Replies: @4Dchessmaster
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Unfortunately, Armenians are VERY familiar with those screenshots you just posted, LMAO.

    , @Blade
    @Anatoly Karlin

    You have no right to ramble until you explain how Turkey with better statistics than Russia is third world while Russia is first world. Until then it is you who is coping.

    , @Pericles
    @Anatoly Karlin

    Speaking of which, in a recent session of Illuminati, the Grey Wolves almost managed to take over the Swedish Green Party.

  113. @melanf
    @Pumblechook


    Russia and the US aren’t as bad as they seem on paper due to groups like ‘Hispanics’ and ‘Tatars’
     
    The equivalent of "Hispanics" is not Tatars, but migrants from Central Asia

    Replies: @Pumblechook, @AP

    There aren’t many Moldovans in Russia, but they would be a closer analogue than Central Asians because they speak another Indo-European language and are not of a different faith.

  114. @Pumblechook
    @melanf

    In labour market dynamics and social standing yes agreed, but that wasn’t my point - rather I’m saying that both in the US and Russia there are large groups numbering in the millions (Tatars, Hispanics but also I guess groups like Lebanese Christians or Georgians) which on paper give the ‘mental impression’ of a non-European element which is in rigid contrast to the majority European population.

    However, this is not always so clear-cut and there is overlapping and leakage across these groups - for instance, there are of course many millions of Hispanics who are either totally Spanish/Italian in origin or Tatars who look and act almost entirely Russian and intermarry with children being absorbed into Russian ethnic.

    Replies: @128, @melanf, @EldnahYm

    However, this is not always so clear-cut and there is overlapping and leakage across these groups – for instance, there are of course many millions of Hispanics who are either totally Spanish/Italian in origin

    You’re wrong. Even “white Hispanic” countries like Argentina are significantly mixed with Amerindians. Look at genetic studies if you don’t believe me. There are very few Hispanics who are totally Spanish or Italian. If I take a trip to Brazil, I would probably have an easier time finding purebred Germans than I would for Portuguese.

    Italians Americans are swine whose largest contribution to American culture has been in the sphere of crime. The result of more “white Hispanic” immigration is that instead of Italians mixing with people of Germanic/Celtic extraction, which at least creates a diluted Italian mix, you get more Italians mixing with Latinos. It’s a race to the bottom.

    Why people think the corrupt “White Hispanics” of Latin America are in any way desirable is itself puzzling. These people have a horrible track record of running countries.

    • Replies: @Yellowface Anon
    @EldnahYm

    The White Hispanic Southern Cone (Argentina especially) were high-income (but underdeveloped relative to that level) countries up to the 1st quarter of 20th century.

    Argentina's economy was as big as Canada's before WWII with comparable populations, but Argentina had faster population growth and was starting to fall behind per capita even in 1900. The same can be said of Uruguay and New Zealand in 1870 but Uruguay mostly stagnated after that point with only occasional booms (1905-1912 & 1943-1954). Chile grew from one of the poorest parts of South America on independence to the level of Northern Europe in 1913, and crashed in the Great Depression. (I'm mostly looking at Maddison Project for these numbers)

    The main reason they grew richer than South America was high resource-to-population ratios, like Canada, Australia and New Zealand, and all these countries followed a similar development model of resource extraction and export (Wheat and cattle in Argentina & Uruguay, saltpeter and copper in Chile). The only HBD relevant part is their failure to fully industrialize like Canada, and even here the HBD is a bit weak since the same issue also afflicted New Zealand. Purely economic (import substitution) and institutional factors (unstable governments) are the biggest explanations here. But the difference between New Zealand (which is poorer but stayed high-income) and the Southern Cone (stagnating into upper middle-income levels) can be easily explained by HBD (or its PC equivalent, human capital), and Southern Cone institutions are downstream from historical and current HBD as well.

    Replies: @EldnahYm

    , @Pumblechook
    @EldnahYm

    Depends how you want to define 'white' - from the pov of a multi-national colony/empire like the US, the word 'white' does have a meaning and I think you can probably define it as an individual with 85%+ European ancestry. If we use that definition, then it's fair to say there are millions of 'white Hispanics'.

    I'm writing from Europe, where the 'white' concept obviously makes less sense, but in the US it's significant in the context of understanding the 'Hispanic' label which is too broad. Anyway, we all have our idiosyncracies; and mine is that I'm more sympathetic to Hispanics than you are, because my experience with them has been very positive on a personal level and I think the US is 'lucky' to have 150 million Mexicans to its south compared to the billion Africans south of Europe.

    Replies: @AP

  115. @AP
    @Blade

    Russia is still recovering from Communism.

    Prior to Communism, Czechia had about the same per capita GDP as Austria. Even now, 30 years after the fall of Communism, it is only at 75% of Austria’s per capita GDP PPP, 3/4 to where it should naturally be. Russia’s circumstances probably reflect a similar if not even more negative skew because it experienced Communism for longer. So this would bring Russia to Spain’s level - much higher than Turkey.

    Turkey does not have the excuse of generations of Communist filth to hold itself back; its current condition is its natural one, as a respectable mid-range civilization.

    Replies: @Blade, @Dmitry, @Morton's toes, @AltanBakshi

    Have you been to Catal Hoyuk or Gobekli Tepe?

    Lucky folk seem to be in control of as valuable a chunk of culture capital as exists on the planet. I hope they manage it better than the Egyptians.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Morton's toes

    I’ve visited Azerbaijan but never Turkey.

    , @Blade
    @Morton's toes

    It is not luck. We could as well go to Russia and the history would be completely different. Ancestors looked around for the best land possible, they chose Anatolia and took it. Not a joke, it is exactly how it happened. Russians also think the same, but they were incapable of invading the South. So they cope by imagining things about Istanbul and tell themselves things like Turkey is third world and Roshiya is powerful. I attribute all this bad mood to the shitty climate they live in. If you notice their arguments gets darker and more negative as the summer gets closer. Add in the fact that they couldn't have vacations in Turkey the last year, and it is not hard to see why Anatoli is so butthurt. He just needs some sunlight. Instead, he will have to join reserve forces for military training with millions of other poor folks Dostoevski so nicely described. Hence the anger.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  116. @DuanDiRen
    @216

    216 is dead on, this is not an anti Russia or China issue, it is just that the kind of people who become MSM journalists don't think of not metropolitan areas as being real.
    If they were born in the hinterlands, they make sure to be ashamed of it.

    Replies: @Not only wrathful

    Rich Chinese from major cities think exactly the same thing about everywhere else in China…

  117. AP says:
    @A Literal Midget
    @AP

    I see. Two questions:

    Is the per capita GDP catch-up/fall-off in USD terms, or in terms of purchasing power parity? Exchange rates can do funky things, especially with sanctions in play.

    (Original question) Was there a common feeling of schadenfreude amongst the Warsaw Pact countries at the reversal of Russian political and economic fortune after the Soviet collapse, and, if there was, how widespread/vocally-expressed was it?

    P.S., who is Gerhard, and why does he sound like Andrei Martyanov?

    Replies: @AP

    Is the per capita GDP catch-up/fall-off in USD terms, or in terms of purchasing power parity? Exchange rates can do funky things, especially with sanctions in play.

    Both, although due to ruble crashing the nominal decline relative to Warsaw Pact was greater.

    (Original question) Was there a common feeling of schadenfreude amongst the Warsaw Pact countries at the reversal of Russian political and economic fortune after the Soviet collapse, and, if there was, how widespread/vocally-expressed was it

    My impression is that there wasn’t much. Eastern Europeans tended to see Russians as fellow victims of the evil Communist system and didn’t dislike them them as people or revel in their misery.* Russians became more disliked under Putin, when Eastern Europeans noticed that they like Putin, that many Russians have nostalgia for the USSR, that Stalin had a high % of popularity etc.

    *Baltics were a different story because unlike Poland they were subjected to the presence of Russian colonists. So Russians were dislike there.

  118. @Morton's toes
    @AP

    Have you been to Catal Hoyuk or Gobekli Tepe?

    Lucky folk seem to be in control of as valuable a chunk of culture capital as exists on the planet. I hope they manage it better than the Egyptians.

    Replies: @AP, @Blade

    I’ve visited Azerbaijan but never Turkey.

  119. This is what a mental population looks like.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @joniel

    Fancy stuff. I don't see it as schizoid, people always say that their enemies are "in decline", weaklings about to collapse. Hitler called Russia "colossus on clay legs". You do that when you plan to fight, it motivates the troops.

    People also badmouth what they have lost. A girl who got away is a loser, a form of self-medication. It is only embarrassing because Brits now inexplicably parade their mental weaknesses in public. (I suspect it's the gender thing, no dignity or balls left.)

    Replies: @AP

    , @216
    @joniel

    Rather than increase military spending, the UK should be repatriating its subversive minorities.

  120. @Almost Missouri
    @Caspar Von Everec

    Yeah, the gross numbers Anatoly uses are a starting point, but he could do something like his CMP-type adjustments to them. For example, he has the USA at 320m or 330m (probably actually about 350m with all the illegals), but only about 200m are the white people who are what most think of as what makes the USA the USA. Still, that's the largest number of white people ever in one nation-state. (And since that number is peaking now, it may be the largest number that there ever will be, unless Russia can win the long game.)

    Similarly, he has Russia at 145m, but only, what, 100m are actual Russians? Still, 100m is the second most white people ever under one flag, and if Russia can overcome near-term fertility problems, it is not boxed in to an ideological/structural dead end like the US is. So Russia may have good prospects in the long term, if it can solve the short term.

    France at 65m, but maybe only 45m of those are actually French, while the rest are mostly imported bulk filler. Germany at 82m, but probably only 70m actual Germans (still third most whites under one flag). The French have had about a century long paranoia about their weak demographics compared to Germany. After WWI France was (justly) worried about Germany's 3:2 demographic advantage (and 5:2 in the coming draft-age cohort). So their post-WWII solution was to bulk up with a lot of foreigners, especially Arabs and Africans. Ironically, this solution to the threat of German demographic overbearance has simply created a greater threat of internal xeno-ethnic overbearance. Meanwhile the actual threat from Germany has dropped to approximately zero. On paper, France can congratulate itself on having chiseled Germany's demo advantage down to 5:4, but strip away the filler and the ratio is still the same old 3:2, and now France has imported a huge semi-hostile underclass to achieve this paper parity. So France now suffers a much bigger internal threat as a result of trying to solve an external problem that no longer exists.

    So what would be the Capital coefficient to the Labor factor à la CMP? Well, The Alternative Hypothesis guy did a good back-of-the-envelope on net tax contributions (i.e., raw contribution to state capacity) of different US ethnes. Basically, each US Hispanic, on average, cancels out the tax contribution of one US white or US Asian, while each US black cancels out the tax contribution of two US whites/Asians. So viewed this way, the actual demographic heft of the USA adjusted for ethne is 215m whites+Asians minus 50m Hispanics minus 40m (×2) blacks equals 85m net white equivalents (and sinking). So Russia and Germany suddenly look pretty competitive. Of course a similar (though less devastating) calculation could also be performed for each of them, perhaps using ethic IQ to size the contribution/detraction to state capacity. Germany, for example, would probably be something like 70m white Germans minus 12m Turks/Kurds etc. equals 58m net white equivalents. Russia would be a little trickier since the Russian whites are arguably not quite as valuable to the state as the US or German whites, and the non-Russian minorities are a more disparate melange.

    Replies: @Caspar von Everec, @reiner Tor, @songbird, @Jim Christian, @Boswald Bollocksworth

    Russia’s demographics are really quite enviable imho. Yeah, maybe it’s “only” 80%-85% Slavic nationalities, but the other groups are pretty much all cold weather farmers or pastoralists of one sort or another. Buryats, Tatars, Tuvans are all great assets to have in a country. How could anyone object to having these Asiatic girls who work at the Moscow McDonalds? It beats the hell out of having 20% archaic admixture tropical-blooded savages like the USA and now France are cursed with, and crippled by. Even Russia’s kebab-eaters are relatively high IQ and have their uses. Russia was able to dispatch Chechen military police units to Syria, maybe useful for policing Sunni areas, or maybe I just fell for the propaganda. My point is, when you consider how bad human biological capital can be, and you look at Russia’s portfolio, it looks fantastic frankly.

    Russia will solve the birth rate issue sooner or later. As a smart man says, media gives you root access to people’s brains. The Russian state has root access to the brains of it’s higher IQ women. It’s just a matter of refining the meme cocktail to get TFR up to 3.0.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @Boswald Bollocksworth

    Agree with first paragraph. Second paragraph, I hope so. But Russia has been slow to impede Twitter, Facebook, and other "newmedia" access to the Russian market and so degenerate Western memes have already taken hold.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon

  121. @joniel
    This is what a mental population looks like.

    https://twitter.com/27khv/status/1386759734968012801

    Replies: @Beckow, @216

    Fancy stuff. I don’t see it as schizoid, people always say that their enemies are “in decline“, weaklings about to collapse. Hitler called Russia “colossus on clay legs“. You do that when you plan to fight, it motivates the troops.

    People also badmouth what they have lost. A girl who got away is a loser, a form of self-medication. It is only embarrassing because Brits now inexplicably parade their mental weaknesses in public. (I suspect it’s the gender thing, no dignity or balls left.)

    • Replies: @AP
    @Beckow


    I don’t see it as schizoid, people always say that their enemies are “in decline“, weaklings about to collapse. Hitler called Russia “colossus on clay legs“. You do that when you plan to fight, it motivates the troops
     
    Like what and quite a few others you say about America?

    Also, Hitler was right. He just managed to stir up the Eastern Slavs against himself. Even a colossus on clay legs can defeat a suicidal one.

    People also badmouth what they have lost. A girl who got away is a loser, a form of self-medication
     
    It’s how some Russian nationalists cope with the loss of Ukraine.

    Replies: @Beckow

  122. @128
    @Pumblechook

    90 percent of Latinos in the US are low-end laborers. Middle class and above Latinos in Lati American are unlikely to immigrate to the US.

    Replies: @AP, @songbird, @Almost Missouri

    Middle class and above Latinos in Lati American are unlikely to immigrate to the US.

    Depends. Whenever a Latin American country gets taken over by Leftists (e.g., Cuba, Venezuela), its middle- and upper-class flee to the US en masse, and typically become American rightists. And there’s plenty of ordinary background immigration by the middle class just seeking higher wages in the US for their skills (e.g., engineers, accountants). Among the upper class, they don’t exactly immigrate so much as establish a US residence, second home and bank accounts/investments, so that if their family is on the losing end of the next coup/revolution/civil war, they have a first world bolt hole prepared.

    But yes, the majority of immigration, certainly the majority of illegal immigration, is low-end labor. I don’t know if it is 90% though. The middle class immigrants are less evident in the US because they assimilate pretty well. The upper class immigrants are less evident because they don’t want to be noticed.

    • Agree: AP, Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @EldnahYm
    @Almost Missouri


    Depends. Whenever a Latin American country gets taken over by Leftists (e.g., Cuba, Venezuela), its middle- and upper-class flee to the US en masse, and typically become American rightists.
     
    I don't consider Republican voters to be "rightists." Just one example, while Cubans voted about 38% for Clinton 1996, in 2000 they only voted 17 percent for the Democrats. Why the big change? Did Cubans hate Al Gore that much? It was because of the Elian Gonzalez saga. The "rightist" Cubans were unhappy the U.S. was sending back an illegal alien to Cuba. So yes, Cubans are rightists in the sense that they are open borders Reaganites.

    Their children are even less Republican though. Democrats have gotten over 40% of the Cuban votes in the 2012 and 2016 elections. 2020 was totally different, as Trump's vote tallies among Hispanics went up considerably.

    Replies: @216

  123. @Boswald Bollocksworth
    @Almost Missouri

    Russia's demographics are really quite enviable imho. Yeah, maybe it's "only" 80%-85% Slavic nationalities, but the other groups are pretty much all cold weather farmers or pastoralists of one sort or another. Buryats, Tatars, Tuvans are all great assets to have in a country. How could anyone object to having these Asiatic girls who work at the Moscow McDonalds? It beats the hell out of having 20% archaic admixture tropical-blooded savages like the USA and now France are cursed with, and crippled by. Even Russia's kebab-eaters are relatively high IQ and have their uses. Russia was able to dispatch Chechen military police units to Syria, maybe useful for policing Sunni areas, or maybe I just fell for the propaganda. My point is, when you consider how bad human biological capital can be, and you look at Russia's portfolio, it looks fantastic frankly.

    Russia will solve the birth rate issue sooner or later. As a smart man says, media gives you root access to people's brains. The Russian state has root access to the brains of it's higher IQ women. It's just a matter of refining the meme cocktail to get TFR up to 3.0.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

    Agree with first paragraph. Second paragraph, I hope so. But Russia has been slow to impede Twitter, Facebook, and other “newmedia” access to the Russian market and so degenerate Western memes have already taken hold.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
    • Replies: @Yellowface Anon
    @Almost Missouri

    You need to replicate the implosion of Big Tech's credibility in the US for that.

  124. @Beckow
    @joniel

    Fancy stuff. I don't see it as schizoid, people always say that their enemies are "in decline", weaklings about to collapse. Hitler called Russia "colossus on clay legs". You do that when you plan to fight, it motivates the troops.

    People also badmouth what they have lost. A girl who got away is a loser, a form of self-medication. It is only embarrassing because Brits now inexplicably parade their mental weaknesses in public. (I suspect it's the gender thing, no dignity or balls left.)

    Replies: @AP

    I don’t see it as schizoid, people always say that their enemies are “in decline“, weaklings about to collapse. Hitler called Russia “colossus on clay legs“. You do that when you plan to fight, it motivates the troops

    Like what and quite a few others you say about America?

    Also, Hitler was right. He just managed to stir up the Eastern Slavs against himself. Even a colossus on clay legs can defeat a suicidal one.

    People also badmouth what they have lost. A girl who got away is a loser, a form of self-medication

    It’s how some Russian nationalists cope with the loss of Ukraine.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @AP

    Oh, boy AP:


    Also, Hitler was right
     
    I just knew you would come out and say it one day. You better don't visit Germany, it is considered a crime there.

    The rest of your response is your usual "not me, you" kinder-garden level stuff.

    Replies: @AP

  125. @Anatoly Karlin
    @Blade

    Cope. Seethe. Dilate.



    https://twitter.com/guineboud/status/1386259620038017025

    https://twitter.com/derinhisse/status/1386029902047195137

    Replies: @4Dchessmaster, @Blade, @Pericles

    Unfortunately, Armenians are VERY familiar with those screenshots you just posted, LMAO.

  126. @TG
    I'm sorry, but equating raw population numbers with military or economic power is so profoundly stupid I don't know where to start.

    In the 19th century, China - a country about the same size as the United States - had about four times the population. But the post-frontier low-fertility rate United States had developed high per-capita wealth, and China at the time was just a mass of malnourished peasants wallowing in the mud. Who do you think was the stronger nation? Of course the United States - 19th century China was a geopolitical weakling easily bullied by relatively tiny nations with well-fed and well-equipped militaries.

    A million desperate malnourished peasants, a billion, who cares? If all they can do is barely stay alive, they are not capable of projecting power of any kind.

    Russia today has fewer people than Nigeria - and if the Russians really cared (they don't) they could conquer Nigeria with hardly a second thought.

    Yes all other things being equal, God is on the side of the bigger battalions. But all other things are not always equal, and just breeding like rats without any consideration of resources or infrastructure etc. historically does not lead to supremacy but to poverty and corruption and stangation and weakness.

    Replies: @Max Payne, @Svevlad, @Mr. Cracker, @Anatoly Karlin, @Seraphim

    You also fail to ‘update’. We are not living in the 19th century.

  127. @Almost Missouri
    @128


    Middle class and above Latinos in Lati American are unlikely to immigrate to the US.
     
    Depends. Whenever a Latin American country gets taken over by Leftists (e.g., Cuba, Venezuela), its middle- and upper-class flee to the US en masse, and typically become American rightists. And there's plenty of ordinary background immigration by the middle class just seeking higher wages in the US for their skills (e.g., engineers, accountants). Among the upper class, they don't exactly immigrate so much as establish a US residence, second home and bank accounts/investments, so that if their family is on the losing end of the next coup/revolution/civil war, they have a first world bolt hole prepared.

    But yes, the majority of immigration, certainly the majority of illegal immigration, is low-end labor. I don't know if it is 90% though. The middle class immigrants are less evident in the US because they assimilate pretty well. The upper class immigrants are less evident because they don't want to be noticed.

    Replies: @EldnahYm

    Depends. Whenever a Latin American country gets taken over by Leftists (e.g., Cuba, Venezuela), its middle- and upper-class flee to the US en masse, and typically become American rightists.

    I don’t consider Republican voters to be “rightists.” Just one example, while Cubans voted about 38% for Clinton 1996, in 2000 they only voted 17 percent for the Democrats. Why the big change? Did Cubans hate Al Gore that much? It was because of the Elian Gonzalez saga. The “rightist” Cubans were unhappy the U.S. was sending back an illegal alien to Cuba. So yes, Cubans are rightists in the sense that they are open borders Reaganites.

    Their children are even less Republican though. Democrats have gotten over 40% of the Cuban votes in the 2012 and 2016 elections. 2020 was totally different, as Trump’s vote tallies among Hispanics went up considerably.

    • Thanks: AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @216
    @EldnahYm

    An urbanized area in the US where the GOP isn't dead is a novelty.

    The GOP in Congress is far to the right regarding fiscal policy versus their own base median, let alone the Hispanic median.

    Replies: @EldnahYm

  128. @Beckow
    @reiner Tor

    The geography of wealth is only partially on east-to-west or south-to-north vectors. It has more to do with how close a region is to the center of the prevailing economic power.

    In Europe wealth peaks in the economic core of London-Benelux-Paris-Lyon-Switzerland-northern Italy and western Germany. That core has been more developed and richer for centuries. At times more marginal regions like Midlands, Berlin-Silesia, even Vienna-Prague-Budapest caught up, but that was driven by local specifics and long periods of peace. There are exceptions (e.g. Stockholm) but in general a region's wealth based on how close it is to the European core area.

    Inside countries we see the same dynamic on a smaller scale: Subcarpathia has always been remote from the center - today Kiev, but before Prague-Budapest-Vienna, Western Hungary, e.g. Gyor (great city) is closer to the European core region, to Vienna and Budapest. Prague dominates Czechia, the south-west Slovakia around is 2.5 times richer than the east. It is also true about Moscow in Russia, Chinese east coast cities.

    This reflects a little appreciated core attribute of wealth: wealth is what the powerful people say it is. Powers tend to live in geographic centers and are able to produce or assign wealth. Lately often only as fiat wealth; they declare that something, some note, are valuable and the rest of the world follows. It could be low self-esteem or simple conformity, but people follow and validate the central wealth creators. And the core prospers.


    The point of this post was how people use obsolete data in their mental models of reality.
     
    That makes change hard. But change happens, over time realities on the ground prevail, virtual models are discarded and people rediscover that wealth is what they can consume in their lives, what is available to them - more or less physically. At that point centers often collapse and mental models readjust. In the meantime living well and using simple arbitrage to game the flaws in the prevailing mental models is probably the best individual strategy.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon

    over time realities on the ground prevail, virtual models are discarded and people rediscover that wealth is what they can consume in their lives, what is available to them – more or less physically. At that point centers often collapse and mental models readjust.

    This is an argument against economic overcomplexity and the terminal stage of capitalism we’re living in. Some sort of degrowth (or reversing overdevelopment) is good for the individual and the local (and probably inevitable now that globalist elites are imposing their version of “right-sizing” the global economy to prepare for the post-human economic system), but not for the reason the main proponents of degrowth argue.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @Yellowface Anon


    ...This is an argument against economic overcomplexity and the terminal stage of capitalism we’re living in. Some sort of degrowth...
     
    Yes it is. But I don't think once the levels of complexity are layered in a system like today they can be scaled back gradually. It is more likely to reach an absurd level and then implode. Most of it is financial and that reflects the fact that modern capitalism is centered around the "idea of money" so it will naturally grow in that direction, more and more, until it becomes too disconnected from reality to exist.

    The complexity of our system is also a symptom of its artificiality. The current attempts to "degrow" the global system are doomed to failure because they are addressing what is easy (weather, movement of people, power relations) and not what is really destabilizing the system (financial overgrowth).

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon

  129. @songbird
    @Blade

    Moscow and St. Petersburg seem like better places to live than Istanbul.

    As to the first world: IMO, the only currently fully first world country is Japan. I don't think the US should be considered to be first world anymore.

    Of course, that creates its own problems about where to rank it. It wouldn't do to call it "second world", and yet I think "first and third world mixed" really loses something - that is what you might have with apartheid or segregation or non-universal suffrage. By themselves, price barriers in real estate only offer minimal protection to a lot of negative factors.

    I wish the Japanese would develop a country-ranking scale to shame the woke West.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon

    Hugh stretches of Japanese rural areas are more dilapidated than Flyover Country.

    • Replies: @Wency
    @Yellowface Anon

    My takeaway from Japan, as an American who spent a few very enjoyable weeks there and did some traveling in suburbs and smaller cities: a lot of the real estate and infrastructure just looks bad. Even in a lot of prosperous-seeming parts of Tokyo. I have to think a big part of this is that no one wants to invest too much capital into renovating real estate in a country where the population is declining 0.4% per year, so the real estate is just going through a depreciation process even in parts of the country where the population is holding up for the moment.

    I would guess another factor is that in the US there is an active desire to signal that places are good and safe, not "sketchy", because it's a more dangerous country. I recall going to a dilapidated and dimly-lit train station in Japan at night that, had it been located in the US, white people wouldn't dare set foot in the place, imagining they'd be extremely lucky to not get mugged. Instead I saw, among other things, a 10-year-old girl alone there in her school uniform, standing about fearlessly.

    Though, to be clear, I'd still take crappy-looking real estate over migration-driven population growth.

    Replies: @128, @songbird, @128, @mal

  130. @A Literal Midget
    @Wency

    I have a hunch that it's easier/cheaper to pay off your population than it is to genocide/reproductively-cripple it. Thus, it would be the preferable strategy for an extractive (literally, for a petrostate) short-term-oriented elite that can stash their loot elsewhere.

    The pacified populace does what any population does, and grows to the extent that it can afford, causing spiraling costs at a later time; by then the original extractive elites are long gone, and their replacements fight to keep the enterprise afloat for enough time to get theirs and leave, as well. Eventually, something blows out, and everything collapses, leaving European charities to pick up the pieces.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

    I have a hunch that it’s easier/cheaper to pay off your population than it is to genocide/reproductively-cripple it.

    It is. Or you could even say that it is easiest to cripple your population by paying it off.

    Broke: concentration camps and death marches.

    Woke: free air-conditioning and sugar drinks.

    Many a formerly hardy Bedouin tribe has succumbed.

    Actually, I don’t think that Petro-governments are this Machiavellian. I think that in reality what happened is that as clans/tribes gained petro-wealth, they also became paranoid that the same thing that happened for the last 6000 years would happen again: their neighbors would steal it. So they bigged up their population every way they could.

    Only in the last generation or so did it occur to the rulers that maybe having a million surly young men divorced from their traditional way of life but without any meaningful new purpose or even real allegiance to the petro-state was not in the rulers’ best interest. The Arab Spring concentrated their minds. They’ve been casting about for solutions ever since. In Saudi Arabia, MBS tried opening bread and circuses to the masses while looting his royal competitors. Seems to have worked for now.

  131. @joniel
    This is what a mental population looks like.

    https://twitter.com/27khv/status/1386759734968012801

    Replies: @Beckow, @216

    Rather than increase military spending, the UK should be repatriating its subversive minorities.

  132. @AP
    @Blade


    Russia was Communist therefore we have an excuse
     
    Communism impoverishes and sets back every place it touches, not only Russia. Compare the Koreas, the Germanies, Czechia and Hungary to Austria. So clearly it is a Communism problem, not a Russian problem, an explanation and not an “excuse.”

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon

    It’s actually more nuanced than this. Best Korea was actually more developed industrially than South Korea until Pak’s coup, but they were rebuilding on a pre-war industrial base established by the Japanese. Austria has always been much wealthier than Hungary even in Habsburg times, and until WWI Czechia too. But the argument holds for East Germany and Czechia, the most industrialized parts of the Eastern bloc which would be at the level of their capitalist neighbors.

    Bear in mind Britain had growth rates comparable to the Eastern Bloc, which ended up poorer than France and West Germany in 1980 from the vantage point of Scandinavia and Switzerland immediately post-war. Those were the years with strong central planning and the Empire seized by the Americans. Also Yugoslavia had respectable growth rates on paper until 1980 with its market socialism (Slovenia nearly converged with Austria by 1980 and diverged afterwards).

    Soviet-style central planning has a colossal knowledge problem that (from a libertarian standpoint, but also true from other free market economic theories) could never resolve without turning into its antithesis (decentralized market decision-making or Smith’s “invisible hand”).

    • Replies: @Boomthorkell
    @Yellowface Anon

    Yeah, Cistlethania, with a focus on Austria, was the Industrial Region to the naturally complementary and agrarian Translethania (which included Hungary). Of course, Galicia and Budapest both existed.

    The Two Koreas both followed that trend. A natural relationship (resource rich mountains, rice-basket lowlands), severed and forced to change by economic and political necessity.

    , @AP
    @Yellowface Anon


    It’s actually more nuanced than this
     
    Yes, it is. But the trend of Communism holding countries back holds.

    Austria has always been much wealthier than Hungary even in Habsburg times, and until WWI Czechia too.
     
    Yes, but Hungary fell even further behind under Communism.

    Using Maddison:

    https://www.rug.nl/ggdc/historicaldevelopment/maddison/original-maddison

    In 1990 dollars, 1948:

    Austria’s per capita GDP was $2,764. In Czechoslovakia it was $3,088 and in Hungary it was $2,200

    In 1990 dollars, 1989:

    Austria’s per capita GDP was $16,360. Czechoslovakia’s was $8,768, Hungary’s was $6,903.

    After about 40 years of Communism, Czechoslovakia went from being richer than Austria, to having slightly more than 50% of Austria's per capita GDP. Hungary went from having 81% of Austria's GDP per capita to having only 43% of Austria's GDP per capita.

    Bear in mind Britain had growth rates comparable to the Eastern Bloc
     
    Sure, but it was at a very high base which means that although the rate of growth was about the same (if not slightly lower) in the UK versus USSR, the increase in $ was considerably greater. In terms of 1990 dollars, UK added $10,500 per capita PPP from 1950 until 1989 while the USSR added less than $5,000 during that time period.

    Yugoslavia did fairly well but as you note it did not practice full Communism (or, correctly, Soviet-style central planning) .

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon, @Pericles

  133. @AP
    @Beckow


    I don’t see it as schizoid, people always say that their enemies are “in decline“, weaklings about to collapse. Hitler called Russia “colossus on clay legs“. You do that when you plan to fight, it motivates the troops
     
    Like what and quite a few others you say about America?

    Also, Hitler was right. He just managed to stir up the Eastern Slavs against himself. Even a colossus on clay legs can defeat a suicidal one.

    People also badmouth what they have lost. A girl who got away is a loser, a form of self-medication
     
    It’s how some Russian nationalists cope with the loss of Ukraine.

    Replies: @Beckow

    Oh, boy AP:

    Also, Hitler was right

    I just knew you would come out and say it one day. You better don’t visit Germany, it is considered a crime there.

    The rest of your response is your usual “not me, you” kinder-garden level stuff.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Beckow

    He was right when in your words, Hitler called Russia “colossus on clay legs.” As evidenced by the massive Soviet collapse. But he managed to defeat himself with his outrageous treatment of the Eastern Slavs, giving them something other than Soviets to fight for. There is nothing controversial about that observation.


    The rest of your response is your usual “not me, you” kinder-garden level stuff
     
    Are you claiming to be a Russian nationalist now? Your lies take unexpected turns.

    You wrote:

    “People also badmouth what they have lost. A girl who got away is a loser, a form of self-medication”

    And, as I wrote, it’s exactly how some Russian nationalists cope with the loss of Ukraine. Some of them even insist Ukraine without Russia has become a Somalia.

    Replies: @JL

  134. @EldnahYm
    @Almost Missouri


    Depends. Whenever a Latin American country gets taken over by Leftists (e.g., Cuba, Venezuela), its middle- and upper-class flee to the US en masse, and typically become American rightists.
     
    I don't consider Republican voters to be "rightists." Just one example, while Cubans voted about 38% for Clinton 1996, in 2000 they only voted 17 percent for the Democrats. Why the big change? Did Cubans hate Al Gore that much? It was because of the Elian Gonzalez saga. The "rightist" Cubans were unhappy the U.S. was sending back an illegal alien to Cuba. So yes, Cubans are rightists in the sense that they are open borders Reaganites.

    Their children are even less Republican though. Democrats have gotten over 40% of the Cuban votes in the 2012 and 2016 elections. 2020 was totally different, as Trump's vote tallies among Hispanics went up considerably.

    Replies: @216

    An urbanized area in the US where the GOP isn’t dead is a novelty.

    The GOP in Congress is far to the right regarding fiscal policy versus their own base median, let alone the Hispanic median.

    • Replies: @EldnahYm
    @216

    The GOP fiscal policy as far as I can tell is to run up the deficit in office, and then claim to want spending cuts when the Democrats are in office.

  135. @Yellowface Anon
    @Beckow


    over time realities on the ground prevail, virtual models are discarded and people rediscover that wealth is what they can consume in their lives, what is available to them – more or less physically. At that point centers often collapse and mental models readjust.
     
    This is an argument against economic overcomplexity and the terminal stage of capitalism we're living in. Some sort of degrowth (or reversing overdevelopment) is good for the individual and the local (and probably inevitable now that globalist elites are imposing their version of "right-sizing" the global economy to prepare for the post-human economic system), but not for the reason the main proponents of degrowth argue.

    Replies: @Beckow

    …This is an argument against economic overcomplexity and the terminal stage of capitalism we’re living in. Some sort of degrowth…

    Yes it is. But I don’t think once the levels of complexity are layered in a system like today they can be scaled back gradually. It is more likely to reach an absurd level and then implode. Most of it is financial and that reflects the fact that modern capitalism is centered around the “idea of money” so it will naturally grow in that direction, more and more, until it becomes too disconnected from reality to exist.

    The complexity of our system is also a symptom of its artificiality. The current attempts to “degrow” the global system are doomed to failure because they are addressing what is easy (weather, movement of people, power relations) and not what is really destabilizing the system (financial overgrowth).

    • Replies: @Yellowface Anon
    @Beckow

    You have localists, agorists and agrarians who are regaining economic perspective on a more human scale and often isolating from the teetering financial edifice. Sort of a people's degrowth.

  136. @EldnahYm
    @Pumblechook


    However, this is not always so clear-cut and there is overlapping and leakage across these groups – for instance, there are of course many millions of Hispanics who are either totally Spanish/Italian in origin
     
    You're wrong. Even "white Hispanic" countries like Argentina are significantly mixed with Amerindians. Look at genetic studies if you don't believe me. There are very few Hispanics who are totally Spanish or Italian. If I take a trip to Brazil, I would probably have an easier time finding purebred Germans than I would for Portuguese.

    Italians Americans are swine whose largest contribution to American culture has been in the sphere of crime. The result of more "white Hispanic" immigration is that instead of Italians mixing with people of Germanic/Celtic extraction, which at least creates a diluted Italian mix, you get more Italians mixing with Latinos. It's a race to the bottom.

    Why people think the corrupt "White Hispanics" of Latin America are in any way desirable is itself puzzling. These people have a horrible track record of running countries.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon, @Pumblechook

    The White Hispanic Southern Cone (Argentina especially) were high-income (but underdeveloped relative to that level) countries up to the 1st quarter of 20th century.

    Argentina’s economy was as big as Canada’s before WWII with comparable populations, but Argentina had faster population growth and was starting to fall behind per capita even in 1900. The same can be said of Uruguay and New Zealand in 1870 but Uruguay mostly stagnated after that point with only occasional booms (1905-1912 & 1943-1954). Chile grew from one of the poorest parts of South America on independence to the level of Northern Europe in 1913, and crashed in the Great Depression. (I’m mostly looking at Maddison Project for these numbers)

    The main reason they grew richer than South America was high resource-to-population ratios, like Canada, Australia and New Zealand, and all these countries followed a similar development model of resource extraction and export (Wheat and cattle in Argentina & Uruguay, saltpeter and copper in Chile). The only HBD relevant part is their failure to fully industrialize like Canada, and even here the HBD is a bit weak since the same issue also afflicted New Zealand. Purely economic (import substitution) and institutional factors (unstable governments) are the biggest explanations here. But the difference between New Zealand (which is poorer but stayed high-income) and the Southern Cone (stagnating into upper middle-income levels) can be easily explained by HBD (or its PC equivalent, human capital), and Southern Cone institutions are downstream from historical and current HBD as well.

    • Replies: @EldnahYm
    @Yellowface Anon

    Researcher Joe Francis casts doubt on the official story on Argentina. In particular, he doesn't think the data is of good quality. Some examples from his blog:

    https://www.joefrancis.info/argentina_decline/
    https://www.joefrancis.info/argentina-in-1800/

  137. @Almost Missouri
    @Boswald Bollocksworth

    Agree with first paragraph. Second paragraph, I hope so. But Russia has been slow to impede Twitter, Facebook, and other "newmedia" access to the Russian market and so degenerate Western memes have already taken hold.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon

    You need to replicate the implosion of Big Tech’s credibility in the US for that.

  138. @Yellowface Anon
    @EldnahYm

    The White Hispanic Southern Cone (Argentina especially) were high-income (but underdeveloped relative to that level) countries up to the 1st quarter of 20th century.

    Argentina's economy was as big as Canada's before WWII with comparable populations, but Argentina had faster population growth and was starting to fall behind per capita even in 1900. The same can be said of Uruguay and New Zealand in 1870 but Uruguay mostly stagnated after that point with only occasional booms (1905-1912 & 1943-1954). Chile grew from one of the poorest parts of South America on independence to the level of Northern Europe in 1913, and crashed in the Great Depression. (I'm mostly looking at Maddison Project for these numbers)

    The main reason they grew richer than South America was high resource-to-population ratios, like Canada, Australia and New Zealand, and all these countries followed a similar development model of resource extraction and export (Wheat and cattle in Argentina & Uruguay, saltpeter and copper in Chile). The only HBD relevant part is their failure to fully industrialize like Canada, and even here the HBD is a bit weak since the same issue also afflicted New Zealand. Purely economic (import substitution) and institutional factors (unstable governments) are the biggest explanations here. But the difference between New Zealand (which is poorer but stayed high-income) and the Southern Cone (stagnating into upper middle-income levels) can be easily explained by HBD (or its PC equivalent, human capital), and Southern Cone institutions are downstream from historical and current HBD as well.

    Replies: @EldnahYm

    Researcher Joe Francis casts doubt on the official story on Argentina. In particular, he doesn’t think the data is of good quality. Some examples from his blog:

    https://www.joefrancis.info/argentina_decline/
    https://www.joefrancis.info/argentina-in-1800/

    • Thanks: reiner Tor
  139. @216
    @EldnahYm

    An urbanized area in the US where the GOP isn't dead is a novelty.

    The GOP in Congress is far to the right regarding fiscal policy versus their own base median, let alone the Hispanic median.

    Replies: @EldnahYm

    The GOP fiscal policy as far as I can tell is to run up the deficit in office, and then claim to want spending cuts when the Democrats are in office.

    • Agree: reiner Tor
  140. @Beckow
    @Yellowface Anon


    ...This is an argument against economic overcomplexity and the terminal stage of capitalism we’re living in. Some sort of degrowth...
     
    Yes it is. But I don't think once the levels of complexity are layered in a system like today they can be scaled back gradually. It is more likely to reach an absurd level and then implode. Most of it is financial and that reflects the fact that modern capitalism is centered around the "idea of money" so it will naturally grow in that direction, more and more, until it becomes too disconnected from reality to exist.

    The complexity of our system is also a symptom of its artificiality. The current attempts to "degrow" the global system are doomed to failure because they are addressing what is easy (weather, movement of people, power relations) and not what is really destabilizing the system (financial overgrowth).

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon

    You have localists, agorists and agrarians who are regaining economic perspective on a more human scale and often isolating from the teetering financial edifice. Sort of a people’s degrowth.

  141. AP says:
    @Beckow
    @AP

    Oh, boy AP:


    Also, Hitler was right
     
    I just knew you would come out and say it one day. You better don't visit Germany, it is considered a crime there.

    The rest of your response is your usual "not me, you" kinder-garden level stuff.

    Replies: @AP

    He was right when in your words, Hitler called Russia “colossus on clay legs.” As evidenced by the massive Soviet collapse. But he managed to defeat himself with his outrageous treatment of the Eastern Slavs, giving them something other than Soviets to fight for. There is nothing controversial about that observation.

    The rest of your response is your usual “not me, you” kinder-garden level stuff

    Are you claiming to be a Russian nationalist now? Your lies take unexpected turns.

    You wrote:

    “People also badmouth what they have lost. A girl who got away is a loser, a form of self-medication”

    And, as I wrote, it’s exactly how some Russian nationalists cope with the loss of Ukraine. Some of them even insist Ukraine without Russia has become a Somalia.

    • Replies: @JL
    @AP


    He was right when in your words, Hitler called Russia “colossus on clay legs.” As evidenced by the massive Soviet collapse. But he managed to defeat himself with his outrageous treatment of the Eastern Slavs, giving them something other than Soviets to fight for. There is nothing controversial about that observation.
     
    This strikes me as incoherent, it's like saying that Hitler was right about the Jews because a lot of Jews were communists, not because there was anything inherently wrong with Jews per se. The same ideological basis that lead to the underestimation of Russia also motivated the brutality towards Eastern Slavs, you can't separate them out for your convenience. Though I guess this is how you rationalize being geopolitical house niggers to Western powers who, in reality, view you with nothing but contempt.

    Replies: @AP

  142. @Yellowface Anon
    @AP

    It's actually more nuanced than this. Best Korea was actually more developed industrially than South Korea until Pak's coup, but they were rebuilding on a pre-war industrial base established by the Japanese. Austria has always been much wealthier than Hungary even in Habsburg times, and until WWI Czechia too. But the argument holds for East Germany and Czechia, the most industrialized parts of the Eastern bloc which would be at the level of their capitalist neighbors.

    Bear in mind Britain had growth rates comparable to the Eastern Bloc, which ended up poorer than France and West Germany in 1980 from the vantage point of Scandinavia and Switzerland immediately post-war. Those were the years with strong central planning and the Empire seized by the Americans. Also Yugoslavia had respectable growth rates on paper until 1980 with its market socialism (Slovenia nearly converged with Austria by 1980 and diverged afterwards).

    Soviet-style central planning has a colossal knowledge problem that (from a libertarian standpoint, but also true from other free market economic theories) could never resolve without turning into its antithesis (decentralized market decision-making or Smith's "invisible hand").

    Replies: @Boomthorkell, @AP

    Yeah, Cistlethania, with a focus on Austria, was the Industrial Region to the naturally complementary and agrarian Translethania (which included Hungary). Of course, Galicia and Budapest both existed.

    The Two Koreas both followed that trend. A natural relationship (resource rich mountains, rice-basket lowlands), severed and forced to change by economic and political necessity.

  143. @Caspar Von Everec
    Population matters, only when you scale it up in consideration of bio-capital. Having a population of 100 million whites is a blessing, its what allowed the US to become a superpower after all. Having a population 100 million blacks is a curse.

    The entire 1.3 billion strong continent of Africa has contributed less to science, technology, art, culture and literature than the puny 17 million strong country of Holland. Even most of what passes for ''African'' intellectual output is mostly the product of whites living in Africa, mostly in South Africa.

    Having 100s of millions of low iq blacks, inbred arabs and sub-human dravidians is not a blessing. India for example should be a world power considering it has 120-180 million 110+ IQ brahmins. But the country despite 7 decades of independence and enlightened liberal rule has remained a backwater.

    It rarely produces elite science, its industrial productivity ages behind that of China and 60% of its population is still composed of penniless farmers and day laborers. The addition of hundreds of millions of dravidians to the population has only had a negative effect on India's fortunes.

    A lot of people seem to believe that the Brazilian favela society is a blueprint for success in the future. Particularly Richard Spencer and the FBI/Marxnats of twitter. Whites, Asians, Brahmins and Jews would rule over vast a negro-mestizoid population that does little other than manual labor and collect welfare checks.

    They reckon that such a society can still continue to be a superpower and produce elite science and maintain world class institutions. Its essentially official American policy as outlined by all the CIA-aligned think tanks like the Brookings institute.

    They'll import a billion salvadorians and Nigerians to keep a level footing with China and maintain a colossal GDP. While importing all of Nigeria may marginally improve GDP, it will catastrophically reduce state power.

    These populations contribute nothing to the increasingly cognitive economy where physical labor is more and more obsolete due to automation. They only commit crime, eat up the money of the productive population, exhaust natural resources, create squalor and generally bring the level of society down.

    The brahmins of India might've been a world superpower if they had a country exclusively for themselves. But since they have to live with australoids, the quality of the society collapses across the board. Corruption, incompetence, religious backwardness, violence, resource leeching and a general pervasiveness of low standards hemorrhage the country.

    Its the same with Brazil. Brazil has 5-10 million Germans, some 20 million North Italians and some 3 million Japanese.

    When looking at raw numbers of high iq populations, Brazil has a high intellect fraction of at least 30 million. So by all rights, their intellectual output should be greater or at least equal to that of Scandinavia. Yet, the reality could not be more different.

    I think its obvious that addition of low functioning populations drastically reduces the intellectual output and overall state power of a nation. After all, America in 1990 was far more functional and capable that America today. Even though it had a 100 million fewer people, it was 70-75% white. At that age, general competence and power projection were far greater.

    Today America has the same number of whites but only at 56%. Consequently, America today is far less functional and has far less of an ability to project power than before.

    I think there should be some study into this matter as to how much a low IQ population reduces the overall state power of a country.

    There should also be some efforts to make a list of countries by biocapital, i.e how much useful population does a country have? Holland has a 12th of Nigeria's population, but it has vastly more useful people that can contribute positively to cvilization and state power.

    My rough ranking would be:

    1. China
    2. United States
    3. Japan
    4. India/Germany
    6. Britain
    7. Russia
    8. France
    9. Italy
    10. Indonesia/Brazil.

    Replies: @Caspar Von Everec, @reiner Tor, @Svevlad, @Almost Missouri, @Gorgeous George, @Some Guy, @SZ, @AlexanderGrozny, @Boomthorkell, @James N. Kennett, @Ron Unz

    As for population…

    A small smart fraction still needs the large population that supports and protects it in a natural environment. Chinese elites exist because of the wider sea of Chinese people, and China’s people prosper because of the elites it has birthed. Economically productive geniuses are only as economically productive as they can be because someone is around to fix their plumbing, so they can get busy inventing space ships, and someone exists to sell that plumber a hotdog on the street and laugh and drink with them, so they don’t fucking shoot themselves from loneliness, because that super-genius probably isn’t going to hang out with them at a barbecue and laugh about a cartoon. It’s a waste when the super-genius has to spend his time attending to tasks someone else could do just as well.

    If India’s Brahmin’s existed, free of the seething masses of India, they would have been utterly god-damned exterminated by some enterprising Afghan raider. In the modern-era, they would have been invaded by the Chinese and turned into Xinjiang Nan…well, realistically, they would just be another small tributary state. They would also have to spend time trading and farming and killing that they could spend developing satellites or the number 0.

    I know you’re referring more to dead-weight populations of other races, but even then, an Africa with 800,000,000 Africans is better for itself than an Africa with 40,000,000, because it’s more likely you’ll get enough Africans sensible enough to run the show in that mega-group than one would in the smaller group. Even then, because there are so damn many of them, it’s hard to directly annex them like in the old days. Now it’s all “soft”-glove corporations instead of Zulu-Wars. Now, no other country would benefit from taking on those Africans (and it would be soooo meannnn to take the bright ones), but a larger population does, indeed, help them.

    Quality of people is, of course, important. Humanity will do best when it has seething trillions of people spread throughout the galaxy, forming a strong bedrock from which enlightened God-Beings can rise. We’d also have enough room then for everyone to have 6 acres and a mule, and time to think.

    • Replies: @Almost Missouri
    @Boomthorkell


    Africa with 800,000,000 Africans is better for itself than an Africa with 40,000,000
     
    Provided they don't outstrip Malthusian limits.

    Humanity will do best when it has seething trillions of people spread throughout the galaxy, forming a strong bedrock from which enlightened God-Beings can rise. We’d also have enough room then for everyone to have 6 acres and a mule, and time to think.
     
    Is there any reason to suppose humanity will be better at staying within Malthusian limits at the galactic scale than it was at the terrestrial scale?

    Also, I note that most human achievement seems to come not from isolated and idle pastoralists but from active and civilized urbanites. Nothing against pastoralists. That is my own preferred mode. I'm just reporting reality as I see it.

    Replies: @Boomthorkell

  144. AP says:
    @Yellowface Anon
    @AP

    It's actually more nuanced than this. Best Korea was actually more developed industrially than South Korea until Pak's coup, but they were rebuilding on a pre-war industrial base established by the Japanese. Austria has always been much wealthier than Hungary even in Habsburg times, and until WWI Czechia too. But the argument holds for East Germany and Czechia, the most industrialized parts of the Eastern bloc which would be at the level of their capitalist neighbors.

    Bear in mind Britain had growth rates comparable to the Eastern Bloc, which ended up poorer than France and West Germany in 1980 from the vantage point of Scandinavia and Switzerland immediately post-war. Those were the years with strong central planning and the Empire seized by the Americans. Also Yugoslavia had respectable growth rates on paper until 1980 with its market socialism (Slovenia nearly converged with Austria by 1980 and diverged afterwards).

    Soviet-style central planning has a colossal knowledge problem that (from a libertarian standpoint, but also true from other free market economic theories) could never resolve without turning into its antithesis (decentralized market decision-making or Smith's "invisible hand").

    Replies: @Boomthorkell, @AP

    It’s actually more nuanced than this

    Yes, it is. But the trend of Communism holding countries back holds.

    Austria has always been much wealthier than Hungary even in Habsburg times, and until WWI Czechia too.

    Yes, but Hungary fell even further behind under Communism.

    Using Maddison:

    https://www.rug.nl/ggdc/historicaldevelopment/maddison/original-maddison

    In 1990 dollars, 1948:

    Austria’s per capita GDP was $2,764. In Czechoslovakia it was $3,088 and in Hungary it was $2,200

    In 1990 dollars, 1989:

    Austria’s per capita GDP was $16,360. Czechoslovakia’s was $8,768, Hungary’s was $6,903.

    After about 40 years of Communism, Czechoslovakia went from being richer than Austria, to having slightly more than 50% of Austria’s per capita GDP. Hungary went from having 81% of Austria’s GDP per capita to having only 43% of Austria’s GDP per capita.

    Bear in mind Britain had growth rates comparable to the Eastern Bloc

    Sure, but it was at a very high base which means that although the rate of growth was about the same (if not slightly lower) in the UK versus USSR, the increase in $ was considerably greater. In terms of 1990 dollars, UK added $10,500 per capita PPP from 1950 until 1989 while the USSR added less than $5,000 during that time period.

    Yugoslavia did fairly well but as you note it did not practice full Communism (or, correctly, Soviet-style central planning) .

    • Replies: @Yellowface Anon
    @AP

    You're pretty much spot on with how existing economic gaps were widened between neighboring countries with contrasting economic systems and new gaps were created between countries with similar levels of development.

    Capitalist Eastern Europe would have been on the same convergent trajectory as Southern Europe or Yugoslavia before the 1980s (and indeed the most industrialized parts like East Germany and Czechia should have actually kept up)

    , @Pericles
    @AP

    Also recall that a lot of Germans were deported from Czechoslovakia after WW2. That was presumably a blow to the old human capital.

    Replies: @AP

  145. @AP
    @Yellowface Anon


    It’s actually more nuanced than this
     
    Yes, it is. But the trend of Communism holding countries back holds.

    Austria has always been much wealthier than Hungary even in Habsburg times, and until WWI Czechia too.
     
    Yes, but Hungary fell even further behind under Communism.

    Using Maddison:

    https://www.rug.nl/ggdc/historicaldevelopment/maddison/original-maddison

    In 1990 dollars, 1948:

    Austria’s per capita GDP was $2,764. In Czechoslovakia it was $3,088 and in Hungary it was $2,200

    In 1990 dollars, 1989:

    Austria’s per capita GDP was $16,360. Czechoslovakia’s was $8,768, Hungary’s was $6,903.

    After about 40 years of Communism, Czechoslovakia went from being richer than Austria, to having slightly more than 50% of Austria's per capita GDP. Hungary went from having 81% of Austria's GDP per capita to having only 43% of Austria's GDP per capita.

    Bear in mind Britain had growth rates comparable to the Eastern Bloc
     
    Sure, but it was at a very high base which means that although the rate of growth was about the same (if not slightly lower) in the UK versus USSR, the increase in $ was considerably greater. In terms of 1990 dollars, UK added $10,500 per capita PPP from 1950 until 1989 while the USSR added less than $5,000 during that time period.

    Yugoslavia did fairly well but as you note it did not practice full Communism (or, correctly, Soviet-style central planning) .

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon, @Pericles

    You’re pretty much spot on with how existing economic gaps were widened between neighboring countries with contrasting economic systems and new gaps were created between countries with similar levels of development.

    Capitalist Eastern Europe would have been on the same convergent trajectory as Southern Europe or Yugoslavia before the 1980s (and indeed the most industrialized parts like East Germany and Czechia should have actually kept up)

    • Agree: AP
  146. @Pumblechook
    @melanf

    Ok will clarify one last time - I’m not disagreeing with you. My point refers to armchair statisticians who would look at Russian demographics on Wikipedia and see “tatars - 5% of population” and think this is some kind of asiatic entirely non-European group...without the knowledge that in reality, many tatars can and do blend into modern Russian so that a tourist may not even know whom they have met in Kazan or Moscow...like the people in your photo

    Replies: @melanf

    look at Russian demographics on Wikipedia and see “tatars – 5% of population” and think this is some kind of asiatic entirely non-European group…

    Well, this is true, but “non-European” peoples represent other ethnic groups (not Tatars). There are places where “Asian” (according to the American classification) ethnic groups make up the majority.

    But it will be more of a distant analogue of the American Indians in the United States and Canada, not Hispanic

    • Agree: EldnahYm
  147. @Anatoly Karlin
    @Blade

    Cope. Seethe. Dilate.



    https://twitter.com/guineboud/status/1386259620038017025

    https://twitter.com/derinhisse/status/1386029902047195137

    Replies: @4Dchessmaster, @Blade, @Pericles

    You have no right to ramble until you explain how Turkey with better statistics than Russia is third world while Russia is first world. Until then it is you who is coping.

  148. @AP
    @Yellowface Anon


    It’s actually more nuanced than this
     
    Yes, it is. But the trend of Communism holding countries back holds.

    Austria has always been much wealthier than Hungary even in Habsburg times, and until WWI Czechia too.
     
    Yes, but Hungary fell even further behind under Communism.

    Using Maddison:

    https://www.rug.nl/ggdc/historicaldevelopment/maddison/original-maddison

    In 1990 dollars, 1948:

    Austria’s per capita GDP was $2,764. In Czechoslovakia it was $3,088 and in Hungary it was $2,200

    In 1990 dollars, 1989:

    Austria’s per capita GDP was $16,360. Czechoslovakia’s was $8,768, Hungary’s was $6,903.

    After about 40 years of Communism, Czechoslovakia went from being richer than Austria, to having slightly more than 50% of Austria's per capita GDP. Hungary went from having 81% of Austria's GDP per capita to having only 43% of Austria's GDP per capita.

    Bear in mind Britain had growth rates comparable to the Eastern Bloc
     
    Sure, but it was at a very high base which means that although the rate of growth was about the same (if not slightly lower) in the UK versus USSR, the increase in $ was considerably greater. In terms of 1990 dollars, UK added $10,500 per capita PPP from 1950 until 1989 while the USSR added less than $5,000 during that time period.

    Yugoslavia did fairly well but as you note it did not practice full Communism (or, correctly, Soviet-style central planning) .

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon, @Pericles

    Also recall that a lot of Germans were deported from Czechoslovakia after WW2. That was presumably a blow to the old human capital.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Pericles

    Although what you wrote seems obvious, the lag happened under communism and there had been significant recovery after the end of communism, so I don’t think it is so, at least not to a great extent. Czech human capital doesn’t seem to be much different from Sudeten German human capital.

  149. @Morton's toes
    @AP

    Have you been to Catal Hoyuk or Gobekli Tepe?

    Lucky folk seem to be in control of as valuable a chunk of culture capital as exists on the planet. I hope they manage it better than the Egyptians.

    Replies: @AP, @Blade

    It is not luck. We could as well go to Russia and the history would be completely different. Ancestors looked around for the best land possible, they chose Anatolia and took it. Not a joke, it is exactly how it happened. Russians also think the same, but they were incapable of invading the South. So they cope by imagining things about Istanbul and tell themselves things like Turkey is third world and Roshiya is powerful. I attribute all this bad mood to the shitty climate they live in. If you notice their arguments gets darker and more negative as the summer gets closer. Add in the fact that they couldn’t have vacations in Turkey the last year, and it is not hard to see why Anatoli is so butthurt. He just needs some sunlight. Instead, he will have to join reserve forces for military training with millions of other poor folks Dostoevski so nicely described. Hence the anger.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Blade

    Russia would have conquered the Tsargrad if not the Perfidious Albion once again doing her very best in the service of the Devil.

    https://cdn.britannica.com/90/126290-050-83E2BDCD/Benjamin-Disraeli.jpg

    Behold, the gifts of England, the first Neocon ever to walk on this Earth!

    -Right my fellows, we need to support corrupt Middle-Eastern regimes, and meddle in local politics? It's of paramount importance to England and her security!

  150. @Vishnugupta
    @Blade

    Russians permanently neutered the Turks as a significant military force on par with other European countries of comparable population.

    The long term effects on the Turkish nation are both physical as well as psychological. Deep down inside Turks realize they just don't really have anything that was once present and try to cover it up by making a lot of noise and engaging in grandstanding both in their individual capacity as well as a nation.

    But we can all see through this..

    Replies: @Blade

    Aren’t you supposed to be shitting on the streets? That’s healthier than commenting nonsense on the internet. For a slave people, who had been slaves for centuries (to no one other than the great Turks first, then for a shorter time to Brits) until Britain finally decided to let you go, you sure talk big.

    • Troll: AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @Vishnugupta
    @Blade

    Talking Turkey?

    Anatolian Turks are genetically Greek, a conquered and converted people ashamed of their own blood.

    Centuries of inbreeding have made you relatively violent and stupid.

    Turk scientific achievements in Turkey are what exactly?A few radio controlled drones?

    To think you are the generic descendants of people who could create the Antikythera mechanism a millennium and a half before anyone else.

    But its part of a pattern the genetic ancestors of Afghans produced Panini etc. look at them today.

    Replies: @Blade, @Daniel Chieh

  151. @Anatoly Karlin
    @Blade

    Cope. Seethe. Dilate.



    https://twitter.com/guineboud/status/1386259620038017025

    https://twitter.com/derinhisse/status/1386029902047195137

    Replies: @4Dchessmaster, @Blade, @Pericles

    Speaking of which, in a recent session of Illuminati, the Grey Wolves almost managed to take over the Swedish Green Party.

  152. @AP
    @128


    Middle class and above Latinos in Lati American are unlikely to immigrate to the US.
     
    True of Mexicans but not true of Cubans, Venezuelans, etc. Their upper and middle classes come to the USA.

    Also, the really impoverished Latinos tend not to leave because they don’t have the money to pay smugglers nor the wherewithal to successfully undertake the journey; they tend to be working class rather than poor. Much of the Mexican immigration has consisted of small farmers or small shopkeeper types.

    Replies: @Pericles

    Also, the really impoverished Latinos tend not to leave because they don’t have the money to pay smugglers nor the wherewithal to successfully undertake the journey

    I believe the custom is to take a loan to make the trip, or perhaps get chain migrated at a later stage.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Pericles

    Of all the eccentric ideas I have heard here, the idea that most Latinos are from the hidalgo-class, and that the lower class ones cannot "afford to migrate" is the most amusing.

    I do not think it holds up if one looks at any number of factors, like rates of obesity or single-motherhood.

    There are two million Dominicans in the US. They came from an island, and they are black Latinos.

  153. @AlexanderGrozny
    @Caspar Von Everec


    Having 100s of millions of low iq blacks, inbred arabs and sub-human dravidians is not a blessing. India for example should be a world power considering it has 120-180 million 110+ IQ brahmins. But the country despite 7 decades of independence and enlightened liberal rule has remained a backwater.
     
    You do realise that India is the third largest economy in the world, has it's own space program, nuclear weapons, the third largest army and is a leader in science and technology?

    Replies: @Another German Reader

    Quantity has its’ own quality.

    But still low income people in similar countries like Vietnam, Phillipines are better off.

    It would not be a surprise if India ends up stratified like Brazil.

    • Replies: @Blade
    @Another German Reader

    Please. You guys are taking that 120-180 million 110+ IQ Indians comment seriously? You do realize those numbers would mean India would have the world's highest numbers of top geniuses right? Look at the reality, does it look like a country with even 50 thousand geniuses? All you need to run a brutally effective government is a number much than 50.000. Does India seem like a well-governed country? Where are all these Brahmin geniuses when India needs them? I know: begging the world, claiming all should send help to India because they were not capable of not celebrating Divali or not allowing major sports events well after a year pandemic has started.

    Countries like Vietnam are better off because the average Viet is significantly smarter than the average Hindu. They know shitting on the streets isn't healthier. They know you don't organize huge events in the middle of a pandemic. They know you can't make 150 million citizens second-class at this age. Their country is also better managed and it will be like South Korea before the end of the century.

  154. @AP
    @reiner Tor


    The easternmost Ukraine is the poorest.
     
    The Republics - probably. It has seen an economic collapse because the war has destroyed much of it. Luhansk is now well below average, but what is left of Donetsk is doing well. During later Soviet and post-Soviet times, easternmost Ukraine was once the richest, other than Kiev of course. But this was because it had coal which led to steel, the greatest source for the country's hard currency, and was heavily invested by the Soviets. Not because the East was more highly developed or educated. It was analogous to some African region being blessed with a lot of oil. Intact eastern parts such as what is left of Donetsk oblast (Mariupol) continue to be wealthy by Ukrainian standards.

    Until Maidan, Zakarpatiya was the poorest region in Ukraine. Its neighbor Chernivtsi is now the second poorest province in Ukraine.

    In the 19th century, Galicia was about 20% wealthier than Russia (per capita Galician GDP in 1890 was $1,947 in 2010 dollars, versus $1,550 in Russia); it was also wealthier than the Balkans, and Portugal. From 1995-2000, Ukraine's per capita GDP in 2010 dollars was lower than Galicia's in 1890!

    Here are Ukrainian wages in summer 2019 - they have increased since then, probably more in the West than in the East:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f6/AverageMonthlySalary2019.png

    Poorest region is Kherson in the South, followed by Chernivtsi in the Southwest. Zakarpatiya is above average in terms of wages.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @reiner Tor

    The easternmost Ukraine is the poorest.

    The Republics – probably.

    You misunderstood, I meant that the easternmost neighbor, Ukraine, is the poorest neighbor of Hungary. Most Hungarians are aware of that (and like I said extrapolate from Subcarpathia), but they know next to nothing about the relative wealth of the different parts of Ukraine, they usually just assume (or did so in the 1990s) that it’s similar to Hungary, i.e. poorer in the east than in the west.

  155. @AP
    @reiner Tor


    The easternmost Ukraine is the poorest.
     
    The Republics - probably. It has seen an economic collapse because the war has destroyed much of it. Luhansk is now well below average, but what is left of Donetsk is doing well. During later Soviet and post-Soviet times, easternmost Ukraine was once the richest, other than Kiev of course. But this was because it had coal which led to steel, the greatest source for the country's hard currency, and was heavily invested by the Soviets. Not because the East was more highly developed or educated. It was analogous to some African region being blessed with a lot of oil. Intact eastern parts such as what is left of Donetsk oblast (Mariupol) continue to be wealthy by Ukrainian standards.

    Until Maidan, Zakarpatiya was the poorest region in Ukraine. Its neighbor Chernivtsi is now the second poorest province in Ukraine.

    In the 19th century, Galicia was about 20% wealthier than Russia (per capita Galician GDP in 1890 was $1,947 in 2010 dollars, versus $1,550 in Russia); it was also wealthier than the Balkans, and Portugal. From 1995-2000, Ukraine's per capita GDP in 2010 dollars was lower than Galicia's in 1890!

    Here are Ukrainian wages in summer 2019 - they have increased since then, probably more in the West than in the East:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f6/AverageMonthlySalary2019.png

    Poorest region is Kherson in the South, followed by Chernivtsi in the Southwest. Zakarpatiya is above average in terms of wages.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @reiner Tor

    Zakarpatiya is above average in terms of wages.

    Now that’s a third recalibration of my internal model. I remember being surprised when I saw data which showed it to be poorer than average (I think it was around the time of the Orange Revolution), maybe I misremember something? Before that I had always just assumed that it was more developed than the rest.

  156. @AP
    @Blade

    Russia is still recovering from Communism.

    Prior to Communism, Czechia had about the same per capita GDP as Austria. Even now, 30 years after the fall of Communism, it is only at 75% of Austria’s per capita GDP PPP, 3/4 to where it should naturally be. Russia’s circumstances probably reflect a similar if not even more negative skew because it experienced Communism for longer. So this would bring Russia to Spain’s level - much higher than Turkey.

    Turkey does not have the excuse of generations of Communist filth to hold itself back; its current condition is its natural one, as a respectable mid-range civilization.

    Replies: @Blade, @Dmitry, @Morton's toes, @AltanBakshi

    Turkey does not have the excuse of generations of Communist filth to hold itself back; its current condition is its natural one, as a respectable mid-range civilization.

    I would not be surprised if Turkey, without Islam, would be economically somewhere near the level of Greece in GDP per capita. So in my opinion AP you are somewhat wrong. During the Byzantine and Roman times Anatolian peninsula was much richer and developed than the mainland Hellas, if I recall correctly the richness of Ionia and Asia(Anatolia) was even noted by Greek authors of the Hellenic Era, before the Roman rule. Genetically most Anatolians are very similar with Armenians and Greeks.

    It’s a scientific consensus that from the ancient past to present era there is no discontinuity in Anatolian genetics. No amount of Greek and Armenian wishing or self-deceiving can change the harsh reality that Anatolian turks are their close relatives.

    • Replies: @Blade
    @AltanBakshi

    Turkey is already on par with Greece if you look at PPP. Greece would be far behind if it wasn't for hundreds of billions they scammed from the EU. They should thank German taxpayers.

    Also no, Turks are not genetically most similar to Greeks or Armenians. You must be a butthurt antiturkic to make such claims. Do you have genetic data from 1000 years ago to compare modern populations? No. As far as I can see, Turks are identical looking to other Turkmens.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=turkmen+people&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjjy5jX7J3wAhXOHc0KHWtMAV0Q_AUoAXoECAEQAw&biw=1920&bih=897

    Are they all Greeks? Or could it be the other way around? Turks were settled in both Thracia and Anatolia much before 1071. They also went to settle in Greece long before 1071. Byzantines settled Pechenegs to Anatolia due to depopulation. You do realize unless the land was significantly empty, there is no way small Turkish groups could make all the way to the other end of Anatolia and establish states there correct? These are all historical records and what proof do you have?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzachas

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    , @AP
    @AltanBakshi


    I would not be surprised if Turkey, without Islam, would be economically somewhere near the level of Greece in GDP per capita
     
    A good point. Maybe. However:

    1. Islam is so longstanding and central to Turkey (unlike Communism to Russia) that it’s difficult to separate the two. Have Turks traditionally practiced cousin marriage over the centuries, like other Muslims have done? This would have negative genetic effects resulting in a decline compared to Byzantine society and in comparison to the Turks’ unassimilated Greek and Armenian brothers.

    2. Most of the converts were Anatolian peasants, whereas to a large extent Greek merchants and such (better educated Greeks) didn’t assimilate and continued to be Greeks under the Ottomans. Constantinople had a huge Greek population, who returned to Greece. So it may be that smarter and more competent strata of Byzantine society stayed Greek, in comparison to those who became Turks.

    Genetically most Anatolians are very similar with Armenians and Greeks
     
    I would probably add Kurds to this mix. Also there was a flow of settlers from the Balkans, such as Bosniaks, as the Ottomans retreated. And the descendants of Slavs captured over the centuries. So you have a mixed population of native Anatolians, ~10% Turkic conquerors, some Bosniaks and Albanians, some Arabs and Persians, some Slavic. An interestingly heterogeneous people.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  157. @Another German Reader
    @AlexanderGrozny

    Quantity has its' own quality.

    But still low income people in similar countries like Vietnam, Phillipines are better off.

    It would not be a surprise if India ends up stratified like Brazil.

    Replies: @Blade

    Please. You guys are taking that 120-180 million 110+ IQ Indians comment seriously? You do realize those numbers would mean India would have the world’s highest numbers of top geniuses right? Look at the reality, does it look like a country with even 50 thousand geniuses? All you need to run a brutally effective government is a number much than 50.000. Does India seem like a well-governed country? Where are all these Brahmin geniuses when India needs them? I know: begging the world, claiming all should send help to India because they were not capable of not celebrating Divali or not allowing major sports events well after a year pandemic has started.

    Countries like Vietnam are better off because the average Viet is significantly smarter than the average Hindu. They know shitting on the streets isn’t healthier. They know you don’t organize huge events in the middle of a pandemic. They know you can’t make 150 million citizens second-class at this age. Their country is also better managed and it will be like South Korea before the end of the century.

  158. @Blade
    @Vishnugupta

    Aren't you supposed to be shitting on the streets? That's healthier than commenting nonsense on the internet. For a slave people, who had been slaves for centuries (to no one other than the great Turks first, then for a shorter time to Brits) until Britain finally decided to let you go, you sure talk big.

    Replies: @Vishnugupta

    Talking Turkey?

    Anatolian Turks are genetically Greek, a conquered and converted people ashamed of their own blood.

    Centuries of inbreeding have made you relatively violent and stupid.

    Turk scientific achievements in Turkey are what exactly?A few radio controlled drones?

    To think you are the generic descendants of people who could create the Antikythera mechanism a millennium and a half before anyone else.

    But its part of a pattern the genetic ancestors of Afghans produced Panini etc. look at them today.

    • Agree: AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @Blade
    @Vishnugupta

    Instead of speculating about shames of other people you should put some skin whitening cream and wonder what causes shit skin color; is it Aboriginal mixture or Andamanian?

    Replies: @Vishnugupta

    , @Daniel Chieh
    @Vishnugupta


    Turk scientific achievements in Turkey are what exactly?A few radio controlled drones?

     

    Turkish drones have been genuinely impressive as of late, one should give them that. Otherwise, there's unfortunately been a lot of difficulties to Turkish achievement, which is interesting because it does feel like the human capital is there but the overall culture seems intellectual stifling.

    Replies: @Vishnugupta, @dux.ie

  159. @AltanBakshi
    @AP


    Turkey does not have the excuse of generations of Communist filth to hold itself back; its current condition is its natural one, as a respectable mid-range civilization.
     
    I would not be surprised if Turkey, without Islam, would be economically somewhere near the level of Greece in GDP per capita. So in my opinion AP you are somewhat wrong. During the Byzantine and Roman times Anatolian peninsula was much richer and developed than the mainland Hellas, if I recall correctly the richness of Ionia and Asia(Anatolia) was even noted by Greek authors of the Hellenic Era, before the Roman rule. Genetically most Anatolians are very similar with Armenians and Greeks.

    It's a scientific consensus that from the ancient past to present era there is no discontinuity in Anatolian genetics. No amount of Greek and Armenian wishing or self-deceiving can change the harsh reality that Anatolian turks are their close relatives.

    Replies: @Blade, @AP

    Turkey is already on par with Greece if you look at PPP. Greece would be far behind if it wasn’t for hundreds of billions they scammed from the EU. They should thank German taxpayers.

    Also no, Turks are not genetically most similar to Greeks or Armenians. You must be a butthurt antiturkic to make such claims. Do you have genetic data from 1000 years ago to compare modern populations? No. As far as I can see, Turks are identical looking to other Turkmens.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=turkmen+people&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjjy5jX7J3wAhXOHc0KHWtMAV0Q_AUoAXoECAEQAw&biw=1920&bih=897

    Are they all Greeks? Or could it be the other way around? Turks were settled in both Thracia and Anatolia much before 1071. They also went to settle in Greece long before 1071. Byzantines settled Pechenegs to Anatolia due to depopulation. You do realize unless the land was significantly empty, there is no way small Turkish groups could make all the way to the other end of Anatolia and establish states there correct? These are all historical records and what proof do you have?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzachas

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Blade


    Also no, Turks are not genetically most similar to Greeks or Armenians. You must be a butthurt antiturkic to make such claims. Do you have genetic data from 1000 years ago to compare modern populations? No. As far as I can see, Turks are identical looking to other Turkmens.
     
    I, unlike you impostor, I have a real Altaic blood, and many friends who are truly Türkic, like Kazakhs, Kyrgyz and Tuvans. Not like you whose ancestor was raped thousand years ago by some Persianised Turkoman. So yes, you have little bit Altaic blood, but probably as much as your average Afghani.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3083616/

    A study involving mitochondrial analysis of a Byzantine-era population, whose samples were gathered from excavations in the archaeological site of Sagalassos, found that Sagalassos samples were closest to modern samples from "Turkey, Crimea, Iran and Italy (Campania and Puglia), Cyprus and the Balkans (Bulgaria, Croatia and Greece)."

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4236450/
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4236450/figure/Fig2/
    "We show that the genetic variation of the contemporary Turkish population clusters with South European populations, as expected, but also shows signatures of relatively recent contribution from ancestral East Asian populations."

    https://media.springernature.com/full/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1186%2F1471-2164-15-963/MediaObjects/12864_2014_Article_6660_Fig2_HTML.jpg?as=webp

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4820045/

    For example, we find 7.9% (±0.4) East Asian ancestry in Turks from admixture occurring 800 (±170) years ago.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6871633/
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw/2.0/html/tileshop_pmc/tileshop_pmc_inline.html?title=Click%20on%20image%20to%20zoom&p=PMC3&id=6871633_41431_2019_466_Fig1_HTML.jpg


    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4904778/
    Many contemporary Central Asian populations speak a Turkic language (Georg et al., 1998) as do the majority of people in Turkey. Several studies have attempted to quantify the Central Asian contribution to the Turkish gene pool utilizing mitochondrial DNA, Y chromosome, and autosomal markers (Alu insertion polymorphism). Mean estimates varied widely; analysis of mitochondrial markers found that the admixture percent of Central Asian was 22% (Berkman, 2006) to 30% (Di Benedetto et al., 2001); for Y chromosome markers, the percent was <9% (Cinnioğlu et al., 2004), 13% (Berkman, 2006), and 30% (Di Benedetto et al., 2001); and for the Alu insertion polymorphism, it was 13% (Berkman et al., 2008) and 15% (Berkman, 2006) in the Turkish gene pool. Although these markers provide some insights about the relative contributions of different sexes, their haploid nature (mitochondrial and Y chromosome markers) makes them more vulnerable to genetic drift than autosomal markers. However, in the present study we used autosomal high-density SNP genotypes across the genome to more accurately reflect the Central Asian admixture with Turks. To compare our samples with published reports (Berkman, 2006; Berkman et al., 2008; Cinnioğlu et al., 2004; Di Benedetto et al., 2001), we used supervised clustering with STRUCTURE (Falush et al., 2003). Individuals from the Middle East (Druze and Palestinian), Europe (French, Italian, Tuscan, and Sardinian), and Central Asia (Uygur, Hazara, and Kyrgyz) were forced into separate clusters, and supervised analysis of Turkish samples was performed at K = 3. The Central Asian contribution was found to be about 15% (with 45% Middle Eastern and 40% European) (Fig. 5A). We inferred parental populations from contemporary populations living in these locations, although these populations may have experienced population movement (e.g., migration, admixture) or genetic drift. Having different populations than the available ones used in this analysis (e.g., populations closer to Turkey or more populations from Central Asia) may also affect the calculated contributions. Nevertheless, our results compare favorably with published results of the Central Asian contribution to today’s Turkish genome (Berkman, 2006; Berkman et al., 2008; Cinnioğlu et al., 2004; Di Benedetto et al., 2001).
     
    I have met in my life Turkmens, and to me they don't look like Anatolian "turks."

    Replies: @Blade, @AltanBakshi

  160. @Blade
    @Morton's toes

    It is not luck. We could as well go to Russia and the history would be completely different. Ancestors looked around for the best land possible, they chose Anatolia and took it. Not a joke, it is exactly how it happened. Russians also think the same, but they were incapable of invading the South. So they cope by imagining things about Istanbul and tell themselves things like Turkey is third world and Roshiya is powerful. I attribute all this bad mood to the shitty climate they live in. If you notice their arguments gets darker and more negative as the summer gets closer. Add in the fact that they couldn't have vacations in Turkey the last year, and it is not hard to see why Anatoli is so butthurt. He just needs some sunlight. Instead, he will have to join reserve forces for military training with millions of other poor folks Dostoevski so nicely described. Hence the anger.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    Russia would have conquered the Tsargrad if not the Perfidious Albion once again doing her very best in the service of the Devil.

    Behold, the gifts of England, the first Neocon ever to walk on this Earth!

    -Right my fellows, we need to support corrupt Middle-Eastern regimes, and meddle in local politics? It’s of paramount importance to England and her security!

  161. @Vishnugupta
    @Blade

    Talking Turkey?

    Anatolian Turks are genetically Greek, a conquered and converted people ashamed of their own blood.

    Centuries of inbreeding have made you relatively violent and stupid.

    Turk scientific achievements in Turkey are what exactly?A few radio controlled drones?

    To think you are the generic descendants of people who could create the Antikythera mechanism a millennium and a half before anyone else.

    But its part of a pattern the genetic ancestors of Afghans produced Panini etc. look at them today.

    Replies: @Blade, @Daniel Chieh

    Instead of speculating about shames of other people you should put some skin whitening cream and wonder what causes shit skin color; is it Aboriginal mixture or Andamanian?

    • Replies: @Vishnugupta
    @Blade

    So Turks don't go on and on about being 'European ' despite geographically being only 5% in Europe and Muslim?

    Turks didn't change their script to the Latin alphabet to try to fit in with Europeans?

    I suggest you make up with your first cousin and begin to make love not war since you haven't been very good at it post the industrial revolution.

    Russians hunted the whole lot of you for sport for the past 250 years.Crimea doesn't count as that was a British and French victory.

    Replies: @Blade

  162. JL says:
    @AP
    @Beckow

    He was right when in your words, Hitler called Russia “colossus on clay legs.” As evidenced by the massive Soviet collapse. But he managed to defeat himself with his outrageous treatment of the Eastern Slavs, giving them something other than Soviets to fight for. There is nothing controversial about that observation.


    The rest of your response is your usual “not me, you” kinder-garden level stuff
     
    Are you claiming to be a Russian nationalist now? Your lies take unexpected turns.

    You wrote:

    “People also badmouth what they have lost. A girl who got away is a loser, a form of self-medication”

    And, as I wrote, it’s exactly how some Russian nationalists cope with the loss of Ukraine. Some of them even insist Ukraine without Russia has become a Somalia.

    Replies: @JL

    He was right when in your words, Hitler called Russia “colossus on clay legs.” As evidenced by the massive Soviet collapse. But he managed to defeat himself with his outrageous treatment of the Eastern Slavs, giving them something other than Soviets to fight for. There is nothing controversial about that observation.

    This strikes me as incoherent, it’s like saying that Hitler was right about the Jews because a lot of Jews were communists, not because there was anything inherently wrong with Jews per se. The same ideological basis that lead to the underestimation of Russia also motivated the brutality towards Eastern Slavs, you can’t separate them out for your convenience. Though I guess this is how you rationalize being geopolitical house niggers to Western powers who, in reality, view you with nothing but contempt.

    • Replies: @AP
    @JL


    This strikes me as incoherent, it’s like saying that Hitler was right about the Jews because a lot of Jews were communists, not because there was anything inherently wrong with Jews per se
     
    It’s not that deep, I didn’t discuss his personal reasoning but simply his statement:

    Soviet Russia was brittle because Bolshevik rule was terrible on various levels and its people hated it. Accordingly, it fell like a house of cards until the Germans convinced its peoples that they, the Germans, were even worse rulers than the Georgian and other non-Russian masters whom the Soviet peoples served as slaves.

    So yes, Soviet Russia was indeed a colossus on clay feet when Hitler described it as such. He was right in that description. Disagree?

    Though I guess this is how you rationalize being geopolitical house niggers to Western powers
     
    Adoption of Russian nationalist sour grapes approach towards peoples to the West who rejected Moscow’s rule.
  163. @Blade
    @Vishnugupta

    Instead of speculating about shames of other people you should put some skin whitening cream and wonder what causes shit skin color; is it Aboriginal mixture or Andamanian?

    Replies: @Vishnugupta

    So Turks don’t go on and on about being ‘European ‘ despite geographically being only 5% in Europe and Muslim?

    Turks didn’t change their script to the Latin alphabet to try to fit in with Europeans?

    I suggest you make up with your first cousin and begin to make love not war since you haven’t been very good at it post the industrial revolution.

    Russians hunted the whole lot of you for sport for the past 250 years.Crimea doesn’t count as that was a British and French victory.

    • Replies: @Blade
    @Vishnugupta

    Look I don't want to waste time with ignorants. We are not European and we don't want to be European. We are better.

    We didn't change our script to fit with Europeans. We got rid of it because it wasn't fitting our language. Arabs have only two 3 vowels we have 8.

    Why do you care who hunted who from India? If necessary we fight with Russians, if necessary they hide their women from us, if necessary they fight with us but why any of you is your business? You focus on China and Pakistan. Bye, have a nice life.

  164. @Blade
    @AltanBakshi

    Turkey is already on par with Greece if you look at PPP. Greece would be far behind if it wasn't for hundreds of billions they scammed from the EU. They should thank German taxpayers.

    Also no, Turks are not genetically most similar to Greeks or Armenians. You must be a butthurt antiturkic to make such claims. Do you have genetic data from 1000 years ago to compare modern populations? No. As far as I can see, Turks are identical looking to other Turkmens.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=turkmen+people&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjjy5jX7J3wAhXOHc0KHWtMAV0Q_AUoAXoECAEQAw&biw=1920&bih=897

    Are they all Greeks? Or could it be the other way around? Turks were settled in both Thracia and Anatolia much before 1071. They also went to settle in Greece long before 1071. Byzantines settled Pechenegs to Anatolia due to depopulation. You do realize unless the land was significantly empty, there is no way small Turkish groups could make all the way to the other end of Anatolia and establish states there correct? These are all historical records and what proof do you have?

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tzachas

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    Also no, Turks are not genetically most similar to Greeks or Armenians. You must be a butthurt antiturkic to make such claims. Do you have genetic data from 1000 years ago to compare modern populations? No. As far as I can see, Turks are identical looking to other Turkmens.

    I, unlike you impostor, I have a real Altaic blood, and many friends who are truly Türkic, like Kazakhs, Kyrgyz and Tuvans. Not like you whose ancestor was raped thousand years ago by some Persianised Turkoman. So yes, you have little bit Altaic blood, but probably as much as your average Afghani.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3083616/

    A study involving mitochondrial analysis of a Byzantine-era population, whose samples were gathered from excavations in the archaeological site of Sagalassos, found that Sagalassos samples were closest to modern samples from “Turkey, Crimea, Iran and Italy (Campania and Puglia), Cyprus and the Balkans (Bulgaria, Croatia and Greece).”

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4236450/
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4236450/figure/Fig2/
    “We show that the genetic variation of the contemporary Turkish population clusters with South European populations, as expected, but also shows signatures of relatively recent contribution from ancestral East Asian populations.”

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4820045/

    For example, we find 7.9% (±0.4) East Asian ancestry in Turks from admixture occurring 800 (±170) years ago.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6871633/

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4904778/
    Many contemporary Central Asian populations speak a Turkic language (Georg et al., 1998) as do the majority of people in Turkey. Several studies have attempted to quantify the Central Asian contribution to the Turkish gene pool utilizing mitochondrial DNA, Y chromosome, and autosomal markers (Alu insertion polymorphism). Mean estimates varied widely; analysis of mitochondrial markers found that the admixture percent of Central Asian was 22% (Berkman, 2006) to 30% (Di Benedetto et al., 2001); for Y chromosome markers, the percent was <9% (Cinnioğlu et al., 2004), 13% (Berkman, 2006), and 30% (Di Benedetto et al., 2001); and for the Alu insertion polymorphism, it was 13% (Berkman et al., 2008) and 15% (Berkman, 2006) in the Turkish gene pool. Although these markers provide some insights about the relative contributions of different sexes, their haploid nature (mitochondrial and Y chromosome markers) makes them more vulnerable to genetic drift than autosomal markers. However, in the present study we used autosomal high-density SNP genotypes across the genome to more accurately reflect the Central Asian admixture with Turks. To compare our samples with published reports (Berkman, 2006; Berkman et al., 2008; Cinnioğlu et al., 2004; Di Benedetto et al., 2001), we used supervised clustering with STRUCTURE (Falush et al., 2003). Individuals from the Middle East (Druze and Palestinian), Europe (French, Italian, Tuscan, and Sardinian), and Central Asia (Uygur, Hazara, and Kyrgyz) were forced into separate clusters, and supervised analysis of Turkish samples was performed at K = 3. The Central Asian contribution was found to be about 15% (with 45% Middle Eastern and 40% European) (Fig. 5A). We inferred parental populations from contemporary populations living in these locations, although these populations may have experienced population movement (e.g., migration, admixture) or genetic drift. Having different populations than the available ones used in this analysis (e.g., populations closer to Turkey or more populations from Central Asia) may also affect the calculated contributions. Nevertheless, our results compare favorably with published results of the Central Asian contribution to today’s Turkish genome (Berkman, 2006; Berkman et al., 2008; Cinnioğlu et al., 2004; Di Benedetto et al., 2001).

    I have met in my life Turkmens, and to me they don’t look like Anatolian “turks.”

    • Agree: Vishnugupta, Bashibuzuk
    • Replies: @Blade
    @AltanBakshi

    You are ignorant. I highly doubt that you are Turkic. If you were, you'd know that there are major branches of Turks and that Turks expanded in all directions. Not all Turks were East Asian even 2300 years ago; Chinese documents mention red-haired blue-eyed Turks. Russians themselves call Kumans, Polovtsi meaning blonde. Even Chingis was green-eyed. We are a great nation only comparable to a few. Why suck up to Russians when even great Turkic leaders like Nazarbayev are distancing themselves and a new Turkic Empire is slowly rising?

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    , @AltanBakshi
    @AltanBakshi

    This is so bizarre to argue with you about Turkicness or who is more Altaic. When my great grandmother still lived, she worshipped Tengri, I've with my own eyes seen and felt real Altaic spirituality, unlike you with your Semitic tribal god. Though I am not a follower of Tengriism, but a Buddhist, we still revere the old gods, and they are not to us evil spirits, like they are to you Muslims.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9XEEph1ReE

    Even Buddha is Burkhan to us, and Burkhan, as a category of highest beings or spirits, was already mentioned in Chingghis Khaan's Secret history of Mongols. The highest Tngri, Khan Khormusta(cognate of Ohrmazd) is equated with the Indra of Vedas, so we can be both Buddhists and followers of Tngri! Unlike you with your Arab faith!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9AzQD_Zdtw

    Replies: @Blade

  165. @Vishnugupta
    @Blade

    So Turks don't go on and on about being 'European ' despite geographically being only 5% in Europe and Muslim?

    Turks didn't change their script to the Latin alphabet to try to fit in with Europeans?

    I suggest you make up with your first cousin and begin to make love not war since you haven't been very good at it post the industrial revolution.

    Russians hunted the whole lot of you for sport for the past 250 years.Crimea doesn't count as that was a British and French victory.

    Replies: @Blade

    Look I don’t want to waste time with ignorants. We are not European and we don’t want to be European. We are better.

    We didn’t change our script to fit with Europeans. We got rid of it because it wasn’t fitting our language. Arabs have only two 3 vowels we have 8.

    Why do you care who hunted who from India? If necessary we fight with Russians, if necessary they hide their women from us, if necessary they fight with us but why any of you is your business? You focus on China and Pakistan. Bye, have a nice life.

  166. @AltanBakshi
    @Blade


    Also no, Turks are not genetically most similar to Greeks or Armenians. You must be a butthurt antiturkic to make such claims. Do you have genetic data from 1000 years ago to compare modern populations? No. As far as I can see, Turks are identical looking to other Turkmens.
     
    I, unlike you impostor, I have a real Altaic blood, and many friends who are truly Türkic, like Kazakhs, Kyrgyz and Tuvans. Not like you whose ancestor was raped thousand years ago by some Persianised Turkoman. So yes, you have little bit Altaic blood, but probably as much as your average Afghani.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3083616/

    A study involving mitochondrial analysis of a Byzantine-era population, whose samples were gathered from excavations in the archaeological site of Sagalassos, found that Sagalassos samples were closest to modern samples from "Turkey, Crimea, Iran and Italy (Campania and Puglia), Cyprus and the Balkans (Bulgaria, Croatia and Greece)."

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4236450/
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4236450/figure/Fig2/
    "We show that the genetic variation of the contemporary Turkish population clusters with South European populations, as expected, but also shows signatures of relatively recent contribution from ancestral East Asian populations."

    https://media.springernature.com/full/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1186%2F1471-2164-15-963/MediaObjects/12864_2014_Article_6660_Fig2_HTML.jpg?as=webp

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4820045/

    For example, we find 7.9% (±0.4) East Asian ancestry in Turks from admixture occurring 800 (±170) years ago.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6871633/
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw/2.0/html/tileshop_pmc/tileshop_pmc_inline.html?title=Click%20on%20image%20to%20zoom&p=PMC3&id=6871633_41431_2019_466_Fig1_HTML.jpg


    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4904778/
    Many contemporary Central Asian populations speak a Turkic language (Georg et al., 1998) as do the majority of people in Turkey. Several studies have attempted to quantify the Central Asian contribution to the Turkish gene pool utilizing mitochondrial DNA, Y chromosome, and autosomal markers (Alu insertion polymorphism). Mean estimates varied widely; analysis of mitochondrial markers found that the admixture percent of Central Asian was 22% (Berkman, 2006) to 30% (Di Benedetto et al., 2001); for Y chromosome markers, the percent was <9% (Cinnioğlu et al., 2004), 13% (Berkman, 2006), and 30% (Di Benedetto et al., 2001); and for the Alu insertion polymorphism, it was 13% (Berkman et al., 2008) and 15% (Berkman, 2006) in the Turkish gene pool. Although these markers provide some insights about the relative contributions of different sexes, their haploid nature (mitochondrial and Y chromosome markers) makes them more vulnerable to genetic drift than autosomal markers. However, in the present study we used autosomal high-density SNP genotypes across the genome to more accurately reflect the Central Asian admixture with Turks. To compare our samples with published reports (Berkman, 2006; Berkman et al., 2008; Cinnioğlu et al., 2004; Di Benedetto et al., 2001), we used supervised clustering with STRUCTURE (Falush et al., 2003). Individuals from the Middle East (Druze and Palestinian), Europe (French, Italian, Tuscan, and Sardinian), and Central Asia (Uygur, Hazara, and Kyrgyz) were forced into separate clusters, and supervised analysis of Turkish samples was performed at K = 3. The Central Asian contribution was found to be about 15% (with 45% Middle Eastern and 40% European) (Fig. 5A). We inferred parental populations from contemporary populations living in these locations, although these populations may have experienced population movement (e.g., migration, admixture) or genetic drift. Having different populations than the available ones used in this analysis (e.g., populations closer to Turkey or more populations from Central Asia) may also affect the calculated contributions. Nevertheless, our results compare favorably with published results of the Central Asian contribution to today’s Turkish genome (Berkman, 2006; Berkman et al., 2008; Cinnioğlu et al., 2004; Di Benedetto et al., 2001).
     
    I have met in my life Turkmens, and to me they don't look like Anatolian "turks."

    Replies: @Blade, @AltanBakshi

    You are ignorant. I highly doubt that you are Turkic. If you were, you’d know that there are major branches of Turks and that Turks expanded in all directions. Not all Turks were East Asian even 2300 years ago; Chinese documents mention red-haired blue-eyed Turks. Russians themselves call Kumans, Polovtsi meaning blonde. Even Chingis was green-eyed. We are a great nation only comparable to a few. Why suck up to Russians when even great Turkic leaders like Nazarbayev are distancing themselves and a new Turkic Empire is slowly rising?

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Blade


    You are ignorant. I highly doubt that you are Turkic.
     
    Not Turkic, but half-Mongolic.

    Why suck up to Russians when even great Turkic leaders like Nazarbayev are distancing themselves and a new Turkic Empire is slowly rising?
     
    I've known a few Anatolian "turks" in my life, and they really don't have same relation or attitude with truth and honor as Russians have. So I'm not writing because of some anti-turk internet memes, but I've really learned in my life that you guys have such a cognitive dissonance and identity crisis, that you are not to be trusted. Also spiritually you really feel more Middle-Eastern or Caucasian than Iranic, Indic, Mongolic or Slavic. I don't hate you guys, you have really been brainwashed by your state, I have heard what they teach in your schools etc. You should build a healthier identity based on the Ottoman Empire and Sultanate of Rum, and not on the empires of the steppes. There is nothing shameful about Ottomans, militarily speaking, why it's not enough for you guys? Why to try to appropriate Götürks, Huns etc? Even Anglos, who have substantial Germanic heritage, don't larp as Germans or Goths. In some form, you have a thousand year old history as a nation, it's more than enough for most people. Russians and Hungarians are not much older, even England in the modern and somewhat unitary form begins after the Norman conquest.

    Replies: @Blade

  167. @AltanBakshi
    @Blade


    Also no, Turks are not genetically most similar to Greeks or Armenians. You must be a butthurt antiturkic to make such claims. Do you have genetic data from 1000 years ago to compare modern populations? No. As far as I can see, Turks are identical looking to other Turkmens.
     
    I, unlike you impostor, I have a real Altaic blood, and many friends who are truly Türkic, like Kazakhs, Kyrgyz and Tuvans. Not like you whose ancestor was raped thousand years ago by some Persianised Turkoman. So yes, you have little bit Altaic blood, but probably as much as your average Afghani.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3083616/

    A study involving mitochondrial analysis of a Byzantine-era population, whose samples were gathered from excavations in the archaeological site of Sagalassos, found that Sagalassos samples were closest to modern samples from "Turkey, Crimea, Iran and Italy (Campania and Puglia), Cyprus and the Balkans (Bulgaria, Croatia and Greece)."

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4236450/
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4236450/figure/Fig2/
    "We show that the genetic variation of the contemporary Turkish population clusters with South European populations, as expected, but also shows signatures of relatively recent contribution from ancestral East Asian populations."

    https://media.springernature.com/full/springer-static/image/art%3A10.1186%2F1471-2164-15-963/MediaObjects/12864_2014_Article_6660_Fig2_HTML.jpg?as=webp

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4820045/

    For example, we find 7.9% (±0.4) East Asian ancestry in Turks from admixture occurring 800 (±170) years ago.

    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6871633/
    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/core/lw/2.0/html/tileshop_pmc/tileshop_pmc_inline.html?title=Click%20on%20image%20to%20zoom&p=PMC3&id=6871633_41431_2019_466_Fig1_HTML.jpg


    https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4904778/
    Many contemporary Central Asian populations speak a Turkic language (Georg et al., 1998) as do the majority of people in Turkey. Several studies have attempted to quantify the Central Asian contribution to the Turkish gene pool utilizing mitochondrial DNA, Y chromosome, and autosomal markers (Alu insertion polymorphism). Mean estimates varied widely; analysis of mitochondrial markers found that the admixture percent of Central Asian was 22% (Berkman, 2006) to 30% (Di Benedetto et al., 2001); for Y chromosome markers, the percent was <9% (Cinnioğlu et al., 2004), 13% (Berkman, 2006), and 30% (Di Benedetto et al., 2001); and for the Alu insertion polymorphism, it was 13% (Berkman et al., 2008) and 15% (Berkman, 2006) in the Turkish gene pool. Although these markers provide some insights about the relative contributions of different sexes, their haploid nature (mitochondrial and Y chromosome markers) makes them more vulnerable to genetic drift than autosomal markers. However, in the present study we used autosomal high-density SNP genotypes across the genome to more accurately reflect the Central Asian admixture with Turks. To compare our samples with published reports (Berkman, 2006; Berkman et al., 2008; Cinnioğlu et al., 2004; Di Benedetto et al., 2001), we used supervised clustering with STRUCTURE (Falush et al., 2003). Individuals from the Middle East (Druze and Palestinian), Europe (French, Italian, Tuscan, and Sardinian), and Central Asia (Uygur, Hazara, and Kyrgyz) were forced into separate clusters, and supervised analysis of Turkish samples was performed at K = 3. The Central Asian contribution was found to be about 15% (with 45% Middle Eastern and 40% European) (Fig. 5A). We inferred parental populations from contemporary populations living in these locations, although these populations may have experienced population movement (e.g., migration, admixture) or genetic drift. Having different populations than the available ones used in this analysis (e.g., populations closer to Turkey or more populations from Central Asia) may also affect the calculated contributions. Nevertheless, our results compare favorably with published results of the Central Asian contribution to today’s Turkish genome (Berkman, 2006; Berkman et al., 2008; Cinnioğlu et al., 2004; Di Benedetto et al., 2001).
     
    I have met in my life Turkmens, and to me they don't look like Anatolian "turks."

    Replies: @Blade, @AltanBakshi

    This is so bizarre to argue with you about Turkicness or who is more Altaic. When my great grandmother still lived, she worshipped Tengri, I’ve with my own eyes seen and felt real Altaic spirituality, unlike you with your Semitic tribal god. Though I am not a follower of Tengriism, but a Buddhist, we still revere the old gods, and they are not to us evil spirits, like they are to you Muslims.

    Even Buddha is Burkhan to us, and Burkhan, as a category of highest beings or spirits, was already mentioned in Chingghis Khaan’s Secret history of Mongols. The highest Tngri, Khan Khormusta(cognate of Ohrmazd) is equated with the Indra of Vedas, so we can be both Buddhists and followers of Tngri! Unlike you with your Arab faith!

    • Replies: @Blade
    @AltanBakshi

    I don't believe in Semitic religions. We should return to Tengrism. Which is monotheistic and actually a far more humane faith than any other. The respect it shows for all life is comparable to few other religions.

    Replies: @Vishnugupta, @AltanBakshi

  168. @Svevlad
    @Caspar Von Everec

    Funnily enough, it's the Dravidian states in India that are the richer, more productive and high IQ.

    The entire muh Aryan north Indians is some west European pseud cope because they jack off to le ebin powerful Yamnaya chariot riders despite the fact that the Indians adopted an Indo-European language simply out of convenience because they probably had some New Guinea type every other village is it's own language family type situation, and the Indo-Europeans in the area were more like a service minority with a monopoly on transport of goods and services because they were "netural" and nomadic

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @DNS, @Caspar Von Everec

    Funnily enough, it’s the Dravidian states in India that are the richer, more productive and high IQ.

    Interestingly, there seems to be a positive correlation between “Dravidian” (actually “Ancestral South Indian” as coined by David Reich) admixture and HDI.

    Although the most dysfunctional parts of India are located in the BIMARU states while the North-West states like Haryana and Punjab are pretty decent.

    Pakistan is likely very backwards due to the corrupting influence of Islamism, it used to be a fairly advanced country until Zia ul-Haq brought about sweeping Islamisation measures which radically transformed the fabric of Pakistani society for the worse.

    • Replies: @Shango
    @DNS

    I only have a moderate understanding of the teaching and history of islam , but how can some military leader of Pakistan islamize the country when it majority of the country is muslim.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @DNS, @DNS, @DNS

  169. @AltanBakshi
    @AltanBakshi

    This is so bizarre to argue with you about Turkicness or who is more Altaic. When my great grandmother still lived, she worshipped Tengri, I've with my own eyes seen and felt real Altaic spirituality, unlike you with your Semitic tribal god. Though I am not a follower of Tengriism, but a Buddhist, we still revere the old gods, and they are not to us evil spirits, like they are to you Muslims.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I9XEEph1ReE

    Even Buddha is Burkhan to us, and Burkhan, as a category of highest beings or spirits, was already mentioned in Chingghis Khaan's Secret history of Mongols. The highest Tngri, Khan Khormusta(cognate of Ohrmazd) is equated with the Indra of Vedas, so we can be both Buddhists and followers of Tngri! Unlike you with your Arab faith!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H9AzQD_Zdtw

    Replies: @Blade

    I don’t believe in Semitic religions. We should return to Tengrism. Which is monotheistic and actually a far more humane faith than any other. The respect it shows for all life is comparable to few other religions.

    • Replies: @Vishnugupta
    @Blade

    This comment is very interesting. This sort of a we were much better under our pre Islamic belief system is something I have seen expressed by Persians but no other people originating in Muslim countries.

    Is this sort of a unique self realization in your individual case or are there a significant number of Turkish citizens who share this belief?

    Replies: @Blade

    , @AltanBakshi
    @Blade

    Tengrism is not monotheistic, there are many different types of Tngri, different types of gods and spirits etc. But they probably lie in your schools and history books that Tngri was just some kind of proto-Allah.

    Vishnugupta such attitudes are common among turkish nationalists. Though in my understanding, the Turkmen conquerors that came to Anatolia were already Muslim. So real native religion of Anatolian turks is heavily syncretic form of Sufi Islam, with strong Shia influences.


    We didn’t change our script to fit with Europeans. We got rid of it because it wasn’t fitting our language. Arabs have only two 3 vowels we have 8.
     
    What a silly excuse, you could just added different vowel marks or letters, or something.

    Even Anglos, who have substantial Germanic heritage, don’t larp as Germans or Goths.
     
    Or as Vikings!

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Blade

  170. @Blade
    @AltanBakshi

    I don't believe in Semitic religions. We should return to Tengrism. Which is monotheistic and actually a far more humane faith than any other. The respect it shows for all life is comparable to few other religions.

    Replies: @Vishnugupta, @AltanBakshi

    This comment is very interesting. This sort of a we were much better under our pre Islamic belief system is something I have seen expressed by Persians but no other people originating in Muslim countries.

    Is this sort of a unique self realization in your individual case or are there a significant number of Turkish citizens who share this belief?

    • Replies: @Blade
    @Vishnugupta

    I don't really know. I have known other people who thought the same. The more they learn, the more likely they think this way. For a very long time, Turkish Islam was heavily under Tengrist influence as well anyway. That's why so much affection for birds, animals, and even trees. So people were fine, but as Islam's influence started overtaking Tengrism, more people started getting dissatisfied with the religion.

  171. @Blade
    @AltanBakshi

    You are ignorant. I highly doubt that you are Turkic. If you were, you'd know that there are major branches of Turks and that Turks expanded in all directions. Not all Turks were East Asian even 2300 years ago; Chinese documents mention red-haired blue-eyed Turks. Russians themselves call Kumans, Polovtsi meaning blonde. Even Chingis was green-eyed. We are a great nation only comparable to a few. Why suck up to Russians when even great Turkic leaders like Nazarbayev are distancing themselves and a new Turkic Empire is slowly rising?

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    You are ignorant. I highly doubt that you are Turkic.

    Not Turkic, but half-Mongolic.

    Why suck up to Russians when even great Turkic leaders like Nazarbayev are distancing themselves and a new Turkic Empire is slowly rising?

    I’ve known a few Anatolian “turks” in my life, and they really don’t have same relation or attitude with truth and honor as Russians have. So I’m not writing because of some anti-turk internet memes, but I’ve really learned in my life that you guys have such a cognitive dissonance and identity crisis, that you are not to be trusted. Also spiritually you really feel more Middle-Eastern or Caucasian than Iranic, Indic, Mongolic or Slavic. I don’t hate you guys, you have really been brainwashed by your state, I have heard what they teach in your schools etc. You should build a healthier identity based on the Ottoman Empire and Sultanate of Rum, and not on the empires of the steppes. There is nothing shameful about Ottomans, militarily speaking, why it’s not enough for you guys? Why to try to appropriate Götürks, Huns etc? Even Anglos, who have substantial Germanic heritage, don’t larp as Germans or Goths. In some form, you have a thousand year old history as a nation, it’s more than enough for most people. Russians and Hungarians are not much older, even England in the modern and somewhat unitary form begins after the Norman conquest.

    • Replies: @Blade
    @AltanBakshi


    Not Turkic, but half-Mongolic.

     

    Mongols are not Turkic, but some Turkic tribes are more mixed with Mongols.

    I’ve known a few Anatolian “turks” in my life, and they really don’t have same relation or attitude with truth and honor as Russians have.
     
    Not all Turkish citizens are Turks. I can clearly tell who is a Turk and who is not in one glance. Not sure what you mean by truth and honor relations, not sure how you deduce it from few 'Turk' who might not even be Turks.

    I’ve really learned in my life that you guys have such a cognitive dissonance and identity crisis, that you are not to be trusted
     
    You met the wrong Turks. I actually wouldn't trust Russians, how do you even know whether they were awake or drunk when they said something?

    You should build a healthier identity based on the Ottoman Empire and Sultanate of Rum, and not on the empires of the steppes.
     
    We aren't building a step empire. But it is just continuity, why should we reject our ancestors because a Mongolian doesn't like it? Seljuks were still mostly nomadic. So were the majority of Turks in the Sultanate of Rum. A good portion of Turks was finally forcibly settled by the Ottomans in 19th century.

    Why to try to appropriate Götürks, Huns etc?
     
    It is not appropriation. Gokturks put the first significant written Turkish text up. They called themselves Blue Turks, I mean, I am a Turk why shouldn't I claim Gokturks when they called themselves Turks? Huns were precursors to Gokturks.

    Basically, all you wrote reduces to I met some Turks, I didn't like them. I met a Mongolian, I thought she was Chinese. It didn't end with me claiming all Mongols are Chinese.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  172. @Blade
    @AltanBakshi

    I don't believe in Semitic religions. We should return to Tengrism. Which is monotheistic and actually a far more humane faith than any other. The respect it shows for all life is comparable to few other religions.

    Replies: @Vishnugupta, @AltanBakshi

    Tengrism is not monotheistic, there are many different types of Tngri, different types of gods and spirits etc. But they probably lie in your schools and history books that Tngri was just some kind of proto-Allah.

    Vishnugupta such attitudes are common among turkish nationalists. Though in my understanding, the Turkmen conquerors that came to Anatolia were already Muslim. So real native religion of Anatolian turks is heavily syncretic form of Sufi Islam, with strong Shia influences.

    We didn’t change our script to fit with Europeans. We got rid of it because it wasn’t fitting our language. Arabs have only two 3 vowels we have 8.

    What a silly excuse, you could just added different vowel marks or letters, or something.

    Even Anglos, who have substantial Germanic heritage, don’t larp as Germans or Goths.

    Or as Vikings!

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @AltanBakshi


    Vishnugupta such attitudes are common among turkish nationalists.
     
    Sorry, a mistake, not among moderate nationalists, but among the Turanist far-right.
    , @Blade
    @AltanBakshi


    Tengrism is not monotheistic, there are many different types of Tngri, different types of gods and spirits etc. But they probably lie in your schools and history books that Tngri was just some kind of proto-Allah.
     
    Tengri is above all, and he created everything. I blurted that it is monotheistic due to that, I must be tired, but yes, there are a lot of spirits and gods. No, they don't teach it at schools as proto-Allah. It was an honest mistake on my end. Still, it can be adopted monotheistically. Not that I actually advocate returning Tengrism. More for cultural reasons. It is easier to explain to people a single creator than many gods if they really need a god.

    Though in my understanding, the Turkmen conquerors that came to Anatolia were already Muslim.
     
    Nominally for the most, for a long time. Tons of shamanic influences continued living among common folks well into 20th century. Even today, some influence is there. Tying knots on trees for wishes, the evil eye for newborns (protects from Al Karisi, that's why it is blue the sky color), and so on.

    What a silly excuse, you could just added different vowel marks or letters, or something.

     

    We liked it better.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  173. @Vishnugupta
    @Blade

    This comment is very interesting. This sort of a we were much better under our pre Islamic belief system is something I have seen expressed by Persians but no other people originating in Muslim countries.

    Is this sort of a unique self realization in your individual case or are there a significant number of Turkish citizens who share this belief?

    Replies: @Blade

    I don’t really know. I have known other people who thought the same. The more they learn, the more likely they think this way. For a very long time, Turkish Islam was heavily under Tengrist influence as well anyway. That’s why so much affection for birds, animals, and even trees. So people were fine, but as Islam’s influence started overtaking Tengrism, more people started getting dissatisfied with the religion.

  174. It’s an even bigger issue so far as perceptions of economic development, or military strength, are concerned. For instance, many “analysts” seem to believe that China outside its eastern seaboard, and Russia outside Moscow, are a twilight zone of peasant hovels and dilapidated post-industrial ruins, respectively.

    Very true, this “generational lag of accepted biases” colors the worldview of the majority of those who care of such things.

    To them “Western Europe” still equals “Safe, tidy, prosperous, free places”, and “California” equals “the best place on Earth”, and today’s post-Western post-Democracies are still viewed as Western Democracies.

    Places like Thailand, Turkey, and Mexico are viewed not as industrial powerhouses, but as places exporting at best bananas, tomatoes, and whores.

    The development of the ASEAN corner of the world is still below the notice of most.

    Or where the middle class is shrinking and the working class is doing fentanyl, and where the middle class is growing and the working class is confident.

    Also the facts that India has its own functioning Mars Orbiter Mission, and has acquired (with Russian assistance) the capability of building its own supersonic cruise missiles, or that Brazil belongs to the exclusive club of countries producing their own jet airliners.

    Or that India’s “Forward Caste” is around 300 million, and its members can kick the ass, civilization-maintenance wise, of any corresponding 300 million from the current USA.

    Incredible shifts are happening in Black Africa as well (aside from the useless feral chaps in South Africa, who have the civilization-building abilities of Detroiters).

    Rwanda
    Kenya
    The only places which seem to be really unchanging, and indeed stagnating, is places like Argentina, Columbia, that lot.

    And one wonders, the USA being so enthusiastic about steering the world’s development, why don’t they first make their own continent safe and prosperous first… They’ve been a dominant super-power since what, 1945? How long can it take to fix their neighborhood?

  175. @AltanBakshi
    @Blade

    Tengrism is not monotheistic, there are many different types of Tngri, different types of gods and spirits etc. But they probably lie in your schools and history books that Tngri was just some kind of proto-Allah.

    Vishnugupta such attitudes are common among turkish nationalists. Though in my understanding, the Turkmen conquerors that came to Anatolia were already Muslim. So real native religion of Anatolian turks is heavily syncretic form of Sufi Islam, with strong Shia influences.


    We didn’t change our script to fit with Europeans. We got rid of it because it wasn’t fitting our language. Arabs have only two 3 vowels we have 8.
     
    What a silly excuse, you could just added different vowel marks or letters, or something.

    Even Anglos, who have substantial Germanic heritage, don’t larp as Germans or Goths.
     
    Or as Vikings!

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Blade

    Vishnugupta such attitudes are common among turkish nationalists.

    Sorry, a mistake, not among moderate nationalists, but among the Turanist far-right.

  176. @AltanBakshi
    @Blade


    You are ignorant. I highly doubt that you are Turkic.
     
    Not Turkic, but half-Mongolic.

    Why suck up to Russians when even great Turkic leaders like Nazarbayev are distancing themselves and a new Turkic Empire is slowly rising?
     
    I've known a few Anatolian "turks" in my life, and they really don't have same relation or attitude with truth and honor as Russians have. So I'm not writing because of some anti-turk internet memes, but I've really learned in my life that you guys have such a cognitive dissonance and identity crisis, that you are not to be trusted. Also spiritually you really feel more Middle-Eastern or Caucasian than Iranic, Indic, Mongolic or Slavic. I don't hate you guys, you have really been brainwashed by your state, I have heard what they teach in your schools etc. You should build a healthier identity based on the Ottoman Empire and Sultanate of Rum, and not on the empires of the steppes. There is nothing shameful about Ottomans, militarily speaking, why it's not enough for you guys? Why to try to appropriate Götürks, Huns etc? Even Anglos, who have substantial Germanic heritage, don't larp as Germans or Goths. In some form, you have a thousand year old history as a nation, it's more than enough for most people. Russians and Hungarians are not much older, even England in the modern and somewhat unitary form begins after the Norman conquest.

    Replies: @Blade

    Not Turkic, but half-Mongolic.

    Mongols are not Turkic, but some Turkic tribes are more mixed with Mongols.

    I’ve known a few Anatolian “turks” in my life, and they really don’t have same relation or attitude with truth and honor as Russians have.

    Not all Turkish citizens are Turks. I can clearly tell who is a Turk and who is not in one glance. Not sure what you mean by truth and honor relations, not sure how you deduce it from few ‘Turk’ who might not even be Turks.

    I’ve really learned in my life that you guys have such a cognitive dissonance and identity crisis, that you are not to be trusted

    You met the wrong Turks. I actually wouldn’t trust Russians, how do you even know whether they were awake or drunk when they said something?

    You should build a healthier identity based on the Ottoman Empire and Sultanate of Rum, and not on the empires of the steppes.

    We aren’t building a step empire. But it is just continuity, why should we reject our ancestors because a Mongolian doesn’t like it? Seljuks were still mostly nomadic. So were the majority of Turks in the Sultanate of Rum. A good portion of Turks was finally forcibly settled by the Ottomans in 19th century.

    Why to try to appropriate Götürks, Huns etc?

    It is not appropriation. Gokturks put the first significant written Turkish text up. They called themselves Blue Turks, I mean, I am a Turk why shouldn’t I claim Gokturks when they called themselves Turks? Huns were precursors to Gokturks.

    Basically, all you wrote reduces to I met some Turks, I didn’t like them. I met a Mongolian, I thought she was Chinese. It didn’t end with me claiming all Mongols are Chinese.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Blade


    But it is just continuity, why should we reject our ancestors because a Mongolian doesn’t like it? Seljuks were still mostly nomadic.
     
    Your culture is based on the rejection of your ancestors. Who were your direct ancestors?

    Linguistic affinity is not same as genetic affinity. Or do you claim that French speaking Africans are automatically relatives of French? But maybe after one thousand years there will be some negroes claiming that they were French.


    Mongols are not Turkic, but some Turkic tribes are more mixed with Mongols.
     
    Turkic peoples, who genetically most resemble ancient Turks, are Tuvans, Yakuts, Yellow Yugurs(Buddhist Uyghurs), and Kyrgyz, they are also extremely close culturally and genetically with Mongolic people, unlike you Anatolians.

    There's a slight cultural and genetic continuity, I can't deny that, but it's not substantial. Turks were quite different after Islamisation, as the history of Karluks and Kara-Khanids show us. You are a new nation and people, born from mixture of Byzantine, Steppe, Persian and Arab influences.

    Replies: @AP

  177. @AltanBakshi
    @Blade

    Tengrism is not monotheistic, there are many different types of Tngri, different types of gods and spirits etc. But they probably lie in your schools and history books that Tngri was just some kind of proto-Allah.

    Vishnugupta such attitudes are common among turkish nationalists. Though in my understanding, the Turkmen conquerors that came to Anatolia were already Muslim. So real native religion of Anatolian turks is heavily syncretic form of Sufi Islam, with strong Shia influences.


    We didn’t change our script to fit with Europeans. We got rid of it because it wasn’t fitting our language. Arabs have only two 3 vowels we have 8.
     
    What a silly excuse, you could just added different vowel marks or letters, or something.

    Even Anglos, who have substantial Germanic heritage, don’t larp as Germans or Goths.
     
    Or as Vikings!

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @Blade

    Tengrism is not monotheistic, there are many different types of Tngri, different types of gods and spirits etc. But they probably lie in your schools and history books that Tngri was just some kind of proto-Allah.

    Tengri is above all, and he created everything. I blurted that it is monotheistic due to that, I must be tired, but yes, there are a lot of spirits and gods. No, they don’t teach it at schools as proto-Allah. It was an honest mistake on my end. Still, it can be adopted monotheistically. Not that I actually advocate returning Tengrism. More for cultural reasons. It is easier to explain to people a single creator than many gods if they really need a god.

    Though in my understanding, the Turkmen conquerors that came to Anatolia were already Muslim.

    Nominally for the most, for a long time. Tons of shamanic influences continued living among common folks well into 20th century. Even today, some influence is there. Tying knots on trees for wishes, the evil eye for newborns (protects from Al Karisi, that’s why it is blue the sky color), and so on.

    What a silly excuse, you could just added different vowel marks or letters, or something.

    We liked it better.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Blade


    Tengri is above all, and he created everything. I blurted that it is monotheistic due to that, I must be tired, but yes, there are a lot of spirits and gods. No, they don’t teach it at schools as proto-Allah. It was an honest mistake on my end. Still, it can be adopted monotheistically.
     
    There are many Tngris, with different roles. When a practitioner of Tengrism is just speaking about Tngri, without being specific which Tngri, it is conceptually more similar to Chinese Tian or Heaven, than some monotheistic concept of God. Tengrism can't be adopted monotheistically except maybe among the fantasies of turkish Grey Wolves, then it would be some another religion and not Tengrism.

    Nominally for the most, for a long time. Tons of shamanic influences continued living among common folks well into 20th century. Even today, some influence is there. Tying knots on trees for wishes, the evil eye for newborns (protects from Al Karisi, that’s why it is blue the sky color), and so on.
     
    Holy trees are part of Islamic and Sufi tradition, evil eye or nazar is not an Altaic tradition, but Middle Eastern. Evil Al spirits are a Caucasian tradition, which you share with such people like Armenians and Georgians. Thank you for proving that your spirituality is wholly Middle Eastern, and not in anyway Altaic.

    Replies: @Blade

  178. @Blade
    @AltanBakshi


    Not Turkic, but half-Mongolic.

     

    Mongols are not Turkic, but some Turkic tribes are more mixed with Mongols.

    I’ve known a few Anatolian “turks” in my life, and they really don’t have same relation or attitude with truth and honor as Russians have.
     
    Not all Turkish citizens are Turks. I can clearly tell who is a Turk and who is not in one glance. Not sure what you mean by truth and honor relations, not sure how you deduce it from few 'Turk' who might not even be Turks.

    I’ve really learned in my life that you guys have such a cognitive dissonance and identity crisis, that you are not to be trusted
     
    You met the wrong Turks. I actually wouldn't trust Russians, how do you even know whether they were awake or drunk when they said something?

    You should build a healthier identity based on the Ottoman Empire and Sultanate of Rum, and not on the empires of the steppes.
     
    We aren't building a step empire. But it is just continuity, why should we reject our ancestors because a Mongolian doesn't like it? Seljuks were still mostly nomadic. So were the majority of Turks in the Sultanate of Rum. A good portion of Turks was finally forcibly settled by the Ottomans in 19th century.

    Why to try to appropriate Götürks, Huns etc?
     
    It is not appropriation. Gokturks put the first significant written Turkish text up. They called themselves Blue Turks, I mean, I am a Turk why shouldn't I claim Gokturks when they called themselves Turks? Huns were precursors to Gokturks.

    Basically, all you wrote reduces to I met some Turks, I didn't like them. I met a Mongolian, I thought she was Chinese. It didn't end with me claiming all Mongols are Chinese.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    But it is just continuity, why should we reject our ancestors because a Mongolian doesn’t like it? Seljuks were still mostly nomadic.

    Your culture is based on the rejection of your ancestors. Who were your direct ancestors?

    Linguistic affinity is not same as genetic affinity. Or do you claim that French speaking Africans are automatically relatives of French? But maybe after one thousand years there will be some negroes claiming that they were French.

    Mongols are not Turkic, but some Turkic tribes are more mixed with Mongols.

    Turkic peoples, who genetically most resemble ancient Turks, are Tuvans, Yakuts, Yellow Yugurs(Buddhist Uyghurs), and Kyrgyz, they are also extremely close culturally and genetically with Mongolic people, unlike you Anatolians.

    There’s a slight cultural and genetic continuity, I can’t deny that, but it’s not substantial. Turks were quite different after Islamisation, as the history of Karluks and Kara-Khanids show us. You are a new nation and people, born from mixture of Byzantine, Steppe, Persian and Arab influences.

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
    • Replies: @AP
    @AltanBakshi


    Linguistic affinity is not same as genetic affinity. Or do you claim that French speaking Africans are automatically relatives of French? But maybe after one thousand years there will be some negroes claiming that they were French.
     
    I agree. It’s the same with Serbian, Macedonian and Bulgarian Slavs. Turks are Turkic, as Balkanoids are Slavic.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  179. @Pericles
    @AP

    Also recall that a lot of Germans were deported from Czechoslovakia after WW2. That was presumably a blow to the old human capital.

    Replies: @AP

    Although what you wrote seems obvious, the lag happened under communism and there had been significant recovery after the end of communism, so I don’t think it is so, at least not to a great extent. Czech human capital doesn’t seem to be much different from Sudeten German human capital.

  180. @reiner Tor
    @Caspar Von Everec


    Having a population 100 million blacks is a curse.
     
    I guess that for an African country having a bigger population still usually translates into bigger military power. Provided that it can avoid a civil war.

    Replies: @Caspar von Everec, @Hapalong Cassidy

    Paul Kagane took his relatively tiny band of Tutsi rebels and overthrew the government of Rwanda – and this was after half of his people, who were a minority in the country to begin with, had been genocided by the Hutus. He then proceeded invade Congo and wreak havoc there for over a decade. The Tutsis probably are higher IQ than most of their African neighbors, and Kagane in particular seems exceptional.

  181. @JL
    @AP


    He was right when in your words, Hitler called Russia “colossus on clay legs.” As evidenced by the massive Soviet collapse. But he managed to defeat himself with his outrageous treatment of the Eastern Slavs, giving them something other than Soviets to fight for. There is nothing controversial about that observation.
     
    This strikes me as incoherent, it's like saying that Hitler was right about the Jews because a lot of Jews were communists, not because there was anything inherently wrong with Jews per se. The same ideological basis that lead to the underestimation of Russia also motivated the brutality towards Eastern Slavs, you can't separate them out for your convenience. Though I guess this is how you rationalize being geopolitical house niggers to Western powers who, in reality, view you with nothing but contempt.

    Replies: @AP

    This strikes me as incoherent, it’s like saying that Hitler was right about the Jews because a lot of Jews were communists, not because there was anything inherently wrong with Jews per se

    It’s not that deep, I didn’t discuss his personal reasoning but simply his statement:

    Soviet Russia was brittle because Bolshevik rule was terrible on various levels and its people hated it. Accordingly, it fell like a house of cards until the Germans convinced its peoples that they, the Germans, were even worse rulers than the Georgian and other non-Russian masters whom the Soviet peoples served as slaves.

    So yes, Soviet Russia was indeed a colossus on clay feet when Hitler described it as such. He was right in that description. Disagree?

    Though I guess this is how you rationalize being geopolitical house niggers to Western powers

    Adoption of Russian nationalist sour grapes approach towards peoples to the West who rejected Moscow’s rule.

  182. @Caspar Von Everec
    Population matters, only when you scale it up in consideration of bio-capital. Having a population of 100 million whites is a blessing, its what allowed the US to become a superpower after all. Having a population 100 million blacks is a curse.

    The entire 1.3 billion strong continent of Africa has contributed less to science, technology, art, culture and literature than the puny 17 million strong country of Holland. Even most of what passes for ''African'' intellectual output is mostly the product of whites living in Africa, mostly in South Africa.

    Having 100s of millions of low iq blacks, inbred arabs and sub-human dravidians is not a blessing. India for example should be a world power considering it has 120-180 million 110+ IQ brahmins. But the country despite 7 decades of independence and enlightened liberal rule has remained a backwater.

    It rarely produces elite science, its industrial productivity ages behind that of China and 60% of its population is still composed of penniless farmers and day laborers. The addition of hundreds of millions of dravidians to the population has only had a negative effect on India's fortunes.

    A lot of people seem to believe that the Brazilian favela society is a blueprint for success in the future. Particularly Richard Spencer and the FBI/Marxnats of twitter. Whites, Asians, Brahmins and Jews would rule over vast a negro-mestizoid population that does little other than manual labor and collect welfare checks.

    They reckon that such a society can still continue to be a superpower and produce elite science and maintain world class institutions. Its essentially official American policy as outlined by all the CIA-aligned think tanks like the Brookings institute.

    They'll import a billion salvadorians and Nigerians to keep a level footing with China and maintain a colossal GDP. While importing all of Nigeria may marginally improve GDP, it will catastrophically reduce state power.

    These populations contribute nothing to the increasingly cognitive economy where physical labor is more and more obsolete due to automation. They only commit crime, eat up the money of the productive population, exhaust natural resources, create squalor and generally bring the level of society down.

    The brahmins of India might've been a world superpower if they had a country exclusively for themselves. But since they have to live with australoids, the quality of the society collapses across the board. Corruption, incompetence, religious backwardness, violence, resource leeching and a general pervasiveness of low standards hemorrhage the country.

    Its the same with Brazil. Brazil has 5-10 million Germans, some 20 million North Italians and some 3 million Japanese.

    When looking at raw numbers of high iq populations, Brazil has a high intellect fraction of at least 30 million. So by all rights, their intellectual output should be greater or at least equal to that of Scandinavia. Yet, the reality could not be more different.

    I think its obvious that addition of low functioning populations drastically reduces the intellectual output and overall state power of a nation. After all, America in 1990 was far more functional and capable that America today. Even though it had a 100 million fewer people, it was 70-75% white. At that age, general competence and power projection were far greater.

    Today America has the same number of whites but only at 56%. Consequently, America today is far less functional and has far less of an ability to project power than before.

    I think there should be some study into this matter as to how much a low IQ population reduces the overall state power of a country.

    There should also be some efforts to make a list of countries by biocapital, i.e how much useful population does a country have? Holland has a 12th of Nigeria's population, but it has vastly more useful people that can contribute positively to cvilization and state power.

    My rough ranking would be:

    1. China
    2. United States
    3. Japan
    4. India/Germany
    6. Britain
    7. Russia
    8. France
    9. Italy
    10. Indonesia/Brazil.

    Replies: @Caspar Von Everec, @reiner Tor, @Svevlad, @Almost Missouri, @Gorgeous George, @Some Guy, @SZ, @AlexanderGrozny, @Boomthorkell, @James N. Kennett, @Ron Unz

    Biocapital can be overridden by other factors. Russia has trouble reaching its biological potential because it is a low-trust society.

    The brahmins of India might’ve been a world superpower if they had a country exclusively for themselves.

    Brahmins are over-rated. I’ve met some who are brilliant, but others who are idiots surviving on their caste privilege. Endogamous castes are India’s curse, and will prevent it achieving its national potential.

    • Agree: AltanBakshi
  183. @AltanBakshi
    @Blade


    But it is just continuity, why should we reject our ancestors because a Mongolian doesn’t like it? Seljuks were still mostly nomadic.
     
    Your culture is based on the rejection of your ancestors. Who were your direct ancestors?

    Linguistic affinity is not same as genetic affinity. Or do you claim that French speaking Africans are automatically relatives of French? But maybe after one thousand years there will be some negroes claiming that they were French.


    Mongols are not Turkic, but some Turkic tribes are more mixed with Mongols.
     
    Turkic peoples, who genetically most resemble ancient Turks, are Tuvans, Yakuts, Yellow Yugurs(Buddhist Uyghurs), and Kyrgyz, they are also extremely close culturally and genetically with Mongolic people, unlike you Anatolians.

    There's a slight cultural and genetic continuity, I can't deny that, but it's not substantial. Turks were quite different after Islamisation, as the history of Karluks and Kara-Khanids show us. You are a new nation and people, born from mixture of Byzantine, Steppe, Persian and Arab influences.

    Replies: @AP

    Linguistic affinity is not same as genetic affinity. Or do you claim that French speaking Africans are automatically relatives of French? But maybe after one thousand years there will be some negroes claiming that they were French.

    I agree. It’s the same with Serbian, Macedonian and Bulgarian Slavs. Turks are Turkic, as Balkanoids are Slavic.

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @AP

    It depends on wholly on what we choose as our historical reference point. To me the historically most authentic Turks are Göktürks, who were first to call themselves Türks, and had the first recorded Turkic language. Written language is necessary for people to be truly living in a history, and not in pre-history. So my reference point is the 6th and 7th century Göktürks in regards of who are the most authentic Türks of history, and all other Türks derive their level of Türkicness in relation of how closely they are related genetically and culturally with the Göktürks and their Türk Khaganate. Thus we must choose a historical reference point, or loci and look how things relate with it. This is of course just my personal way to establish the truth in regards of such worldly matters as which ethnicity is more authentic as a Türk, or as an Aryan.

    Were not the first Slavs with a written language Bulgars? Did not Greeks call them first by the name of the Slav? Are they not then the Ur-Slavs of the history? Or is your classification of who is the most original Slav different? Of course the Slavic Urheimat was probably somewhere Between modern day Germany and Russia, I understand if people of those lands are in your opinion the most original Slavs.

    Replies: @AP

  184. @EldnahYm
    @Pumblechook


    However, this is not always so clear-cut and there is overlapping and leakage across these groups – for instance, there are of course many millions of Hispanics who are either totally Spanish/Italian in origin
     
    You're wrong. Even "white Hispanic" countries like Argentina are significantly mixed with Amerindians. Look at genetic studies if you don't believe me. There are very few Hispanics who are totally Spanish or Italian. If I take a trip to Brazil, I would probably have an easier time finding purebred Germans than I would for Portuguese.

    Italians Americans are swine whose largest contribution to American culture has been in the sphere of crime. The result of more "white Hispanic" immigration is that instead of Italians mixing with people of Germanic/Celtic extraction, which at least creates a diluted Italian mix, you get more Italians mixing with Latinos. It's a race to the bottom.

    Why people think the corrupt "White Hispanics" of Latin America are in any way desirable is itself puzzling. These people have a horrible track record of running countries.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon, @Pumblechook

    Depends how you want to define ‘white’ – from the pov of a multi-national colony/empire like the US, the word ‘white’ does have a meaning and I think you can probably define it as an individual with 85%+ European ancestry. If we use that definition, then it’s fair to say there are millions of ‘white Hispanics’.

    I’m writing from Europe, where the ‘white’ concept obviously makes less sense, but in the US it’s significant in the context of understanding the ‘Hispanic’ label which is too broad. Anyway, we all have our idiosyncracies; and mine is that I’m more sympathetic to Hispanics than you are, because my experience with them has been very positive on a personal level and I think the US is ‘lucky’ to have 150 million Mexicans to its south compared to the billion Africans south of Europe.

    • Replies: @AP
    @Pumblechook

    He is an Anglo supremacist who thinks America had gone downhill since it let in all those Italians, Poles, Irish, etc. If one hates the presence of Italians, naturally one would also lament an influx of Latinos (who are more like Italian peasants than they are like Anglo farmers). If you are a fan of Italy you would probably not mind Latinos too much. I live in a part of the country without a lot of them, but friends who moved to Texas are happy with the Mexicans in their state.

    I’ve noticed that educated Latinos (often Cubans and South Americans) mix well with Slavs. On average they are a bit more dramatic, a bit more sexualized, they prefer rum over vodka - but there is a certain closeness of spirit; Anglos and Germanics are more distant. The Slavic and the Mediterranean worlds are sympathetic cousins.

    There is a class barrier with less educated Latinos, but I imagine they are not too dissimilar to hardworking Slavic peasants from 100 years ago. I hear that in Chicago, Polish-American proles often marry Mexicans living nearby.

    That having been said, a mass influx is disruptive, I do not support open borders.

    Replies: @Pumblechook, @EldnahYm, @mal, @Matra

  185. AP says:
    @AltanBakshi
    @AP


    Turkey does not have the excuse of generations of Communist filth to hold itself back; its current condition is its natural one, as a respectable mid-range civilization.
     
    I would not be surprised if Turkey, without Islam, would be economically somewhere near the level of Greece in GDP per capita. So in my opinion AP you are somewhat wrong. During the Byzantine and Roman times Anatolian peninsula was much richer and developed than the mainland Hellas, if I recall correctly the richness of Ionia and Asia(Anatolia) was even noted by Greek authors of the Hellenic Era, before the Roman rule. Genetically most Anatolians are very similar with Armenians and Greeks.

    It's a scientific consensus that from the ancient past to present era there is no discontinuity in Anatolian genetics. No amount of Greek and Armenian wishing or self-deceiving can change the harsh reality that Anatolian turks are their close relatives.

    Replies: @Blade, @AP

    I would not be surprised if Turkey, without Islam, would be economically somewhere near the level of Greece in GDP per capita

    A good point. Maybe. However:

    1. Islam is so longstanding and central to Turkey (unlike Communism to Russia) that it’s difficult to separate the two. Have Turks traditionally practiced cousin marriage over the centuries, like other Muslims have done? This would have negative genetic effects resulting in a decline compared to Byzantine society and in comparison to the Turks’ unassimilated Greek and Armenian brothers.

    2. Most of the converts were Anatolian peasants, whereas to a large extent Greek merchants and such (better educated Greeks) didn’t assimilate and continued to be Greeks under the Ottomans. Constantinople had a huge Greek population, who returned to Greece. So it may be that smarter and more competent strata of Byzantine society stayed Greek, in comparison to those who became Turks.

    Genetically most Anatolians are very similar with Armenians and Greeks

    I would probably add Kurds to this mix. Also there was a flow of settlers from the Balkans, such as Bosniaks, as the Ottomans retreated. And the descendants of Slavs captured over the centuries. So you have a mixed population of native Anatolians, ~10% Turkic conquerors, some Bosniaks and Albanians, some Arabs and Persians, some Slavic. An interestingly heterogeneous people.

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    I had the good fortune of accidentally locating a copy of Akhatanhel's Krytmsky's "History of Turkey" while meandering the streets of the Podil area in Kyiv. Krymsky was a world class Orientalist and linguist (of Tatar ancestry) whose intellectual acumen was only rivaled by Michael Hrushevsky. He was a staunch Ukrainophile, who ended up paying dearly for his beliefs:


    Krymsky researched the history of the Ukrainian language. As he was an opponent of Aleksei Sobolevsky's claim that the language of the ancient Kyivan Rus’ was more Russian, than Ukrainian,[2] he wrote three polemical studies in 1904-07 on this question, later his views on the language of the Kyivan Rus were summarized in Українська мова, звідкіля вона взялася і як розвивалася ("The Ukrainian Language: Whence It Came and How It Developed")
     
    His "History of Turkey" delves into much detail about the ethnogenesis of the modern Turkish nation (The Turkish government to this day hold the man in great esteem), and offers insights into its histroy like no other book on Turkish history that I've read. It's a great crime against humanity that nobody has been able to publish his six volume history of the Khazars!
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/54/Stamp_of_Ukraine_s104.jpg/220px-Stamp_of_Ukraine_s104.jpg

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahatanhel_Krymsky
    A good short schematic about Krymsky's life

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  186. @Blade
    @AltanBakshi


    Tengrism is not monotheistic, there are many different types of Tngri, different types of gods and spirits etc. But they probably lie in your schools and history books that Tngri was just some kind of proto-Allah.
     
    Tengri is above all, and he created everything. I blurted that it is monotheistic due to that, I must be tired, but yes, there are a lot of spirits and gods. No, they don't teach it at schools as proto-Allah. It was an honest mistake on my end. Still, it can be adopted monotheistically. Not that I actually advocate returning Tengrism. More for cultural reasons. It is easier to explain to people a single creator than many gods if they really need a god.

    Though in my understanding, the Turkmen conquerors that came to Anatolia were already Muslim.
     
    Nominally for the most, for a long time. Tons of shamanic influences continued living among common folks well into 20th century. Even today, some influence is there. Tying knots on trees for wishes, the evil eye for newborns (protects from Al Karisi, that's why it is blue the sky color), and so on.

    What a silly excuse, you could just added different vowel marks or letters, or something.

     

    We liked it better.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    Tengri is above all, and he created everything. I blurted that it is monotheistic due to that, I must be tired, but yes, there are a lot of spirits and gods. No, they don’t teach it at schools as proto-Allah. It was an honest mistake on my end. Still, it can be adopted monotheistically.

    There are many Tngris, with different roles. When a practitioner of Tengrism is just speaking about Tngri, without being specific which Tngri, it is conceptually more similar to Chinese Tian or Heaven, than some monotheistic concept of God. Tengrism can’t be adopted monotheistically except maybe among the fantasies of turkish Grey Wolves, then it would be some another religion and not Tengrism.

    Nominally for the most, for a long time. Tons of shamanic influences continued living among common folks well into 20th century. Even today, some influence is there. Tying knots on trees for wishes, the evil eye for newborns (protects from Al Karisi, that’s why it is blue the sky color), and so on.

    Holy trees are part of Islamic and Sufi tradition, evil eye or nazar is not an Altaic tradition, but Middle Eastern. Evil Al spirits are a Caucasian tradition, which you share with such people like Armenians and Georgians. Thank you for proving that your spirituality is wholly Middle Eastern, and not in anyway Altaic.

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
    • Replies: @Blade
    @AltanBakshi


    Holy trees are part of Islamic and Sufi tradition, evil eye or nazar is not an Altaic tradition, but Middle Eastern. Evil Al spirits are a Caucasian tradition, which you share with such people like Armenians and Georgians. Thank you for proving that your spirituality is wholly Middle Eastern, and not in anyway Altaic.
     
    You just proved that you have no idea about the topic. "Al karisi" is just one way of saying it, it is Anatolian. Origins of it is Shamanist, not from Caucasia. Chechens took is from the Turks, it is related to Albis. In case you didn't know, Almas also exist in Mongolian folklore. And NO. There are NO Islamic concept of holy trees. You have no clue about what you are talking about. Turks believed from the time immemorial that trees were holy, especially beech. Umay descended the world with beech. Turks also believed the first man was created under a tree with nine branches. Oguz Han believed to have found one of his wives on a tree. Kipchak, a Turkish tribe's name means "Tree Hollow." Turks even believed a great tree connected earth and sky, it is called Bay Terek (Great Beech).

    There are absolutely zero holy trees in Islamic tradition. Do you think Arabia was full of forests? Sufism also doesn't have a concept of holy trees. You are already beyond your depth.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @AltanBakshi

  187. AP says:
    @Pumblechook
    @EldnahYm

    Depends how you want to define 'white' - from the pov of a multi-national colony/empire like the US, the word 'white' does have a meaning and I think you can probably define it as an individual with 85%+ European ancestry. If we use that definition, then it's fair to say there are millions of 'white Hispanics'.

    I'm writing from Europe, where the 'white' concept obviously makes less sense, but in the US it's significant in the context of understanding the 'Hispanic' label which is too broad. Anyway, we all have our idiosyncracies; and mine is that I'm more sympathetic to Hispanics than you are, because my experience with them has been very positive on a personal level and I think the US is 'lucky' to have 150 million Mexicans to its south compared to the billion Africans south of Europe.

    Replies: @AP

    He is an Anglo supremacist who thinks America had gone downhill since it let in all those Italians, Poles, Irish, etc. If one hates the presence of Italians, naturally one would also lament an influx of Latinos (who are more like Italian peasants than they are like Anglo farmers). If you are a fan of Italy you would probably not mind Latinos too much. I live in a part of the country without a lot of them, but friends who moved to Texas are happy with the Mexicans in their state.

    I’ve noticed that educated Latinos (often Cubans and South Americans) mix well with Slavs. On average they are a bit more dramatic, a bit more sexualized, they prefer rum over vodka – but there is a certain closeness of spirit; Anglos and Germanics are more distant. The Slavic and the Mediterranean worlds are sympathetic cousins.

    There is a class barrier with less educated Latinos, but I imagine they are not too dissimilar to hardworking Slavic peasants from 100 years ago. I hear that in Chicago, Polish-American proles often marry Mexicans living nearby.

    That having been said, a mass influx is disruptive, I do not support open borders.

    • Replies: @Pumblechook
    @AP

    Well, I am from a southern Italian family, so there is your answer ha -

    But sure, this is not a paean to open borders for the United States. What I meant is simply what I said; if you have greedy soulless neo-liberals running your country and determined to replace your neighbours, then I'd rather the wheel of life puts me next to Jose and Maria, not Abdulkader and Khadija.

    Replies: @silviosilver

    , @EldnahYm
    @AP


    He is an Anglo supremacist who thinks America had gone downhill since it let in all those Italians, Poles, Irish, etc. If one hates the presence of Italians, naturally one would also lament an influx of Latinos (who are more like Italian peasants than they are like Anglo farmers). If you are a fan of Italy you would probably not mind Latinos too much. I live in a part of the country without a lot of them, but friends who moved to Texas are happy with the Mexicans in their state.
     
    Fair enough description, although I don't really value English people over Scottish or Dutch for example. I wouldn't mind the Irish if they weren't corrupt anti-English papists. Some Ulster Scots mixed with local Irish people, and I have so-called Scots-Irish background so it is quite possible I have Irish ancestry. Poles are ok personally, the kindest person I have ever known in my life was a Catholic American of Polish ancestry, but I think the entrance of large number of them introduced an undesirable foreign element. On the other hand, mixes of British with Poles tends to produce entertaining results. See Mike Ditka for an example. Germanic Swiss people were the best immigrants of the Ellis Island era.

    I'm more of a cultural supremacist for Protestant British Isles culture as it evolved in the Americas and a pseudo-Nordicist. So Poles are much higher in my totem pole than Italians.

    There are differences between Italians and Hispanics. In particular, sex crimes. Italians may have murdered each other a lot in the past, and been involved in all sorts of corruption and vice, but they're not commonly rapists, child molesters, or gropers. Hispanics are. This is always ignored by people who talk about how great Hispanics are. Sex crimes against strangers in the United States is mostly a crime committed by Blacks and Hispanics.

    California Hispanics have tended to be more troublesome than the ones in Texas. Puerto Ricans in New York have historically been criminally inclined and involved in gangs. Florida is a mixed picture compared to Texas or California.


    I’ve noticed that educated Latinos (often Cubans and South Americans) mix well with Slavs. On average they are a bit more dramatic, a bit more sexualized, they prefer rum over vodka – but there is a certain closeness of spirit; Anglos and Germanics are more distant. The Slavic and the Mediterranean worlds are sympathetic cousins.
     
    There are more important things in life than a shared affinity for sour cream.

    Replies: @AP, @AltanBakshi

    , @mal
    @AP


    I’ve noticed that educated Latinos (often Cubans and South Americans) mix well with Slavs. On average they are a bit more dramatic, a bit more sexualized, they prefer rum over vodka – but there is a certain closeness of spirit;
     
    Can confirm.
    , @Matra
    @AP

    He is an Anglo supremacist who thinks America had gone downhill since it let in all those Italians, Poles, Irish, etc

    Funny how Anglos (plus Germans & Scandinavians) who prefer their own nations and ways are never just 'patriots', just nasty 'supremacists'.

    If you are a fan of Italy you would probably not mind Latinos too much

    I spent parts of the winters of 2018 and 2019 in Lombardy, Emilia-Romagna, & Veneto. Maybe next time I'll try Guatemala or El Salvador, after all if you are a fan of Italy you probably won't mind those places too much.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @AP

  188. @AP
    @AltanBakshi


    Linguistic affinity is not same as genetic affinity. Or do you claim that French speaking Africans are automatically relatives of French? But maybe after one thousand years there will be some negroes claiming that they were French.
     
    I agree. It’s the same with Serbian, Macedonian and Bulgarian Slavs. Turks are Turkic, as Balkanoids are Slavic.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    It depends on wholly on what we choose as our historical reference point. To me the historically most authentic Turks are Göktürks, who were first to call themselves Türks, and had the first recorded Turkic language. Written language is necessary for people to be truly living in a history, and not in pre-history. So my reference point is the 6th and 7th century Göktürks in regards of who are the most authentic Türks of history, and all other Türks derive their level of Türkicness in relation of how closely they are related genetically and culturally with the Göktürks and their Türk Khaganate. Thus we must choose a historical reference point, or loci and look how things relate with it. This is of course just my personal way to establish the truth in regards of such worldly matters as which ethnicity is more authentic as a Türk, or as an Aryan.

    Were not the first Slavs with a written language Bulgars? Did not Greeks call them first by the name of the Slav? Are they not then the Ur-Slavs of the history? Or is your classification of who is the most original Slav different? Of course the Slavic Urheimat was probably somewhere Between modern day Germany and Russia, I understand if people of those lands are in your opinion the most original Slavs.

    • Replies: @AP
    @AltanBakshi


    Were not the first Slavs with a written language Bulgars? Did not Greeks call them first by the name of the Slav
     
    IIRC at that time the Slavs that had come down had not yet become fully absorbed by the natives so there were still discrete unmixed Slavic population down there, rather than as now, a Balkan population of 20% Slavic descent.

    Basically the former Ottoman Empire is the homeland of LARPers. A bunch of Thracians or Albanians pretending to be Slavs and a bunch of Anatolians mixed with Arabs and Persians pretending to be Turks. Only Greeks, Albanians and Armenians are straightforward. Kurds also.

    Replies: @Yahya K., @Yellowface Anon

  189. @AP
    @AltanBakshi


    I would not be surprised if Turkey, without Islam, would be economically somewhere near the level of Greece in GDP per capita
     
    A good point. Maybe. However:

    1. Islam is so longstanding and central to Turkey (unlike Communism to Russia) that it’s difficult to separate the two. Have Turks traditionally practiced cousin marriage over the centuries, like other Muslims have done? This would have negative genetic effects resulting in a decline compared to Byzantine society and in comparison to the Turks’ unassimilated Greek and Armenian brothers.

    2. Most of the converts were Anatolian peasants, whereas to a large extent Greek merchants and such (better educated Greeks) didn’t assimilate and continued to be Greeks under the Ottomans. Constantinople had a huge Greek population, who returned to Greece. So it may be that smarter and more competent strata of Byzantine society stayed Greek, in comparison to those who became Turks.

    Genetically most Anatolians are very similar with Armenians and Greeks
     
    I would probably add Kurds to this mix. Also there was a flow of settlers from the Balkans, such as Bosniaks, as the Ottomans retreated. And the descendants of Slavs captured over the centuries. So you have a mixed population of native Anatolians, ~10% Turkic conquerors, some Bosniaks and Albanians, some Arabs and Persians, some Slavic. An interestingly heterogeneous people.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    I had the good fortune of accidentally locating a copy of Akhatanhel’s Krytmsky’s “History of Turkey” while meandering the streets of the Podil area in Kyiv. Krymsky was a world class Orientalist and linguist (of Tatar ancestry) whose intellectual acumen was only rivaled by Michael Hrushevsky. He was a staunch Ukrainophile, who ended up paying dearly for his beliefs:

    Krymsky researched the history of the Ukrainian language. As he was an opponent of Aleksei Sobolevsky’s claim that the language of the ancient Kyivan Rus’ was more Russian, than Ukrainian,[2] he wrote three polemical studies in 1904-07 on this question, later his views on the language of the Kyivan Rus were summarized in Українська мова, звідкіля вона взялася і як розвивалася (“The Ukrainian Language: Whence It Came and How It Developed”)

    His “History of Turkey” delves into much detail about the ethnogenesis of the modern Turkish nation (The Turkish government to this day hold the man in great esteem), and offers insights into its histroy like no other book on Turkish history that I’ve read. It’s a great crime against humanity that nobody has been able to publish his six volume history of the Khazars!

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahatanhel_Krymsky
    A good short schematic about Krymsky’s life

    • Thanks: AP
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Mr. Hack


    The Turkish government to this day holds the man in great esteem
     
    https://cdnuploads.aa.com.tr/uploads/Contents/2021/02/10/thumbs_b_c_4ecf191534c8c343cc0e87ead42e071a.jpg?v=201151
    Ukraine’s Ambassador to Turkey Andrii Sybiha (L) recieves a gift during a conference held to commemorate the Ukrainian scholar Ahatanhel Krymsky, also known for his studies on Turkology, on the occasion of his 150th birthday at the Ulucanlar Prison Museum in Ankara, Turkey on February 10, 2021. Photo: Rabia İclal Turan - Anadolu Agency

    Krimsky has posthumously been honored elsewhere in the Asian world, including Pakistan. His erudition was immense, he fluently could converse in 16 languages and had a working understanding of 52. He wrote mainly (but not exclusively) about Ukrainian, Turkic, Persian and Arabic historical and literary topics. A well known and admired orientalist in Moscow too.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  190. @AP
    @Pumblechook

    He is an Anglo supremacist who thinks America had gone downhill since it let in all those Italians, Poles, Irish, etc. If one hates the presence of Italians, naturally one would also lament an influx of Latinos (who are more like Italian peasants than they are like Anglo farmers). If you are a fan of Italy you would probably not mind Latinos too much. I live in a part of the country without a lot of them, but friends who moved to Texas are happy with the Mexicans in their state.

    I’ve noticed that educated Latinos (often Cubans and South Americans) mix well with Slavs. On average they are a bit more dramatic, a bit more sexualized, they prefer rum over vodka - but there is a certain closeness of spirit; Anglos and Germanics are more distant. The Slavic and the Mediterranean worlds are sympathetic cousins.

    There is a class barrier with less educated Latinos, but I imagine they are not too dissimilar to hardworking Slavic peasants from 100 years ago. I hear that in Chicago, Polish-American proles often marry Mexicans living nearby.

    That having been said, a mass influx is disruptive, I do not support open borders.

    Replies: @Pumblechook, @EldnahYm, @mal, @Matra

    Well, I am from a southern Italian family, so there is your answer ha –

    But sure, this is not a paean to open borders for the United States. What I meant is simply what I said; if you have greedy soulless neo-liberals running your country and determined to replace your neighbours, then I’d rather the wheel of life puts me next to Jose and Maria, not Abdulkader and Khadija.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    @Pumblechook


    then I’d rather the wheel of life puts me next to Jose and Maria, not Abdulkader and Khadija.
     
    If you're talking about next door neighbors, there is absolutely fuck all guarantee that Jose and Maria are going to be better people. (Picture some squat, tatted up indios who blast ranchera music, speak hispano-retardo grade English and toss their trash on your lawn - you want that scum for neighbors?)

    If you're talking about the entire neighborhood going either spic or muzz, in my book you're screwed either way. And though middle class spic would be preferable to middle class muzz, the latter aren't necessarily a complete horror show.

    Replies: @AP, @Blinky Bill

  191. @AnonFromTN
    @songbird

    Most Latinos tend to be uneducated, but they do work. My area around the pool and spa was redone by Latinos. My roof was changed by Latinos. Some of my trees were cut and others trimmed by Latinos. In a place where I wash my car 80+% of workers are Latinos. Cleaning staff in most US hotels and motels are Latinas. This is in sharp contrast to another group of woefully uneducated people we all know, who only look for freebies (be it welfare or “reparations”) and prefer criminal activities to honest work.

    Replies: @songbird

    I believe there are lots of hardworking people in the third world, but it is still the third world.

  192. @Pericles
    @AP


    Also, the really impoverished Latinos tend not to leave because they don’t have the money to pay smugglers nor the wherewithal to successfully undertake the journey

     

    I believe the custom is to take a loan to make the trip, or perhaps get chain migrated at a later stage.

    Replies: @songbird

    Of all the eccentric ideas I have heard here, the idea that most Latinos are from the hidalgo-class, and that the lower class ones cannot “afford to migrate” is the most amusing.

    I do not think it holds up if one looks at any number of factors, like rates of obesity or single-motherhood.

    There are two million Dominicans in the US. They came from an island, and they are black Latinos.

  193. @Boomthorkell
    @Caspar Von Everec

    As for population...

    A small smart fraction still needs the large population that supports and protects it in a natural environment. Chinese elites exist because of the wider sea of Chinese people, and China's people prosper because of the elites it has birthed. Economically productive geniuses are only as economically productive as they can be because someone is around to fix their plumbing, so they can get busy inventing space ships, and someone exists to sell that plumber a hotdog on the street and laugh and drink with them, so they don't fucking shoot themselves from loneliness, because that super-genius probably isn't going to hang out with them at a barbecue and laugh about a cartoon. It's a waste when the super-genius has to spend his time attending to tasks someone else could do just as well.

    If India's Brahmin's existed, free of the seething masses of India, they would have been utterly god-damned exterminated by some enterprising Afghan raider. In the modern-era, they would have been invaded by the Chinese and turned into Xinjiang Nan...well, realistically, they would just be another small tributary state. They would also have to spend time trading and farming and killing that they could spend developing satellites or the number 0.

    I know you're referring more to dead-weight populations of other races, but even then, an Africa with 800,000,000 Africans is better for itself than an Africa with 40,000,000, because it's more likely you'll get enough Africans sensible enough to run the show in that mega-group than one would in the smaller group. Even then, because there are so damn many of them, it's hard to directly annex them like in the old days. Now it's all "soft"-glove corporations instead of Zulu-Wars. Now, no other country would benefit from taking on those Africans (and it would be soooo meannnn to take the bright ones), but a larger population does, indeed, help them.

    Quality of people is, of course, important. Humanity will do best when it has seething trillions of people spread throughout the galaxy, forming a strong bedrock from which enlightened God-Beings can rise. We'd also have enough room then for everyone to have 6 acres and a mule, and time to think.

    Replies: @Almost Missouri

    Africa with 800,000,000 Africans is better for itself than an Africa with 40,000,000

    Provided they don’t outstrip Malthusian limits.

    Humanity will do best when it has seething trillions of people spread throughout the galaxy, forming a strong bedrock from which enlightened God-Beings can rise. We’d also have enough room then for everyone to have 6 acres and a mule, and time to think.

    Is there any reason to suppose humanity will be better at staying within Malthusian limits at the galactic scale than it was at the terrestrial scale?

    Also, I note that most human achievement seems to come not from isolated and idle pastoralists but from active and civilized urbanites. Nothing against pastoralists. That is my own preferred mode. I’m just reporting reality as I see it.

    • Replies: @Boomthorkell
    @Almost Missouri

    Oh, sure. Hopefully that elite fraction can lend some guidance, but a Malthusian Africa is less likely to be walked over than Jungle-Bush Subsistence Africa (I'm not a fan of Africa. I'm just saying they would be literally harder to take over, much as a billion American Indians would be harder to take over than however many there actually were.)

    Oh, I don't expect everyone to opt for settling in a brave new world with 6 acres and a mule. I expect most people to live and stay and develop mega cities, or the free fields of tomorrow to become the arcologies of next Wednesday.

    As far as Malthus is concerned, if humanity hits the galactic scale, we're likely some level of a post-scarcity society, or even outright free-energy (no science fiction does justice to the possibilities of that). That, and even if resources are a concern, it will be a much longer timeline and much higher limit till said scarcity becomes an issue, on the galactic scale, when we can mine asteroids, let alone other worlds.

  194. @Svevlad
    @Caspar Von Everec

    Funnily enough, it's the Dravidian states in India that are the richer, more productive and high IQ.

    The entire muh Aryan north Indians is some west European pseud cope because they jack off to le ebin powerful Yamnaya chariot riders despite the fact that the Indians adopted an Indo-European language simply out of convenience because they probably had some New Guinea type every other village is it's own language family type situation, and the Indo-Europeans in the area were more like a service minority with a monopoly on transport of goods and services because they were "netural" and nomadic

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @DNS, @Caspar Von Everec

    I think that’s owed to the congress government prioritizing South India’s development for decades. It received far more in infrastructure spending and education than the north. Perhaps they reckoned it was more urgent to develop these regions owing to separatist sentiments there and because they’re adjacent to the sea and thus the main nodes of export and import

  195. @Almost Missouri
    @Caspar von Everec


    Excellent idea on ”substracting” blacks and hispanics from whites and Asians in the US.
     
    The "fulcrum point" IQ for citizenship in a modern nation-state seems to be around 95. Above that you can nation-build. Below that and you can only stave off fissiparous collapse through various illiberal means.

    I’d add that 72 million out 80 million German population is actually white. The number of Germans is probably something of the order of 64 million.
     
    Thanks. So 8 million Slavs, Balkans, Italics, non-German Germanics (Swiss, Austrian, Dutch, Scandi)? Any idea what the non-German white composition is?

    As far as France, the white population is about 51-54 million. France has had extensive european migration, primarily from Italy and Spain for the last two centuries. The percentage of actual French, i.e Gauls, Bretons, Franks and Occitan is a mystery. Though I read an estimate that its about 40 million or so.
     
    Yeah, France is deliberately ethnic-obscurantist. Though I would count two-century old Latin immigrants as effectively French now. 11-14 million of those? That leaves another 11-14 million Arabs/Africans. That doesn't seem quite so bad as I've been hearing ... but then, higher birthrates.

    Russia is far better off that it seems. Its roughly 85% white when you count Russians, Ukrainians, Germans and Greeks. That amounts to some 124 million people. Its diversity isn’t that toxic either. The largest minority is Volga tatar who have an IQ near identical to Russians and is genetically about 70-80% Slavic.
     
    Thanks. These kinds of subtleties are the reason that I didn't venture to calculate Russia.

    The American hispanic contingent is a mixed bag. Around half of it is Castizo supposedly, 75% white(mostly Iberian) people that identify as hispanic for the diversity points. They are borderline white.
     
    Yes, "Hispanics" is bastard category peculiar to the US. It's nominally based on language (although many "Hispanics" don't actually speak Spanish) and mixes higher caste Cubans and South Americans with lower caste Central Americans, plus Dominicans and Puerto Ricans muddying things further. It is a lousy theoretical categorization, but in practice it tracks pretty well between whites and blacks.

    Japan also has significant human capital, as does Korea.

     

    Agree. On paper Japan should be more powerful than the US, though the East Asians punch above their weight compared to everyone else, they still punch somewhat below their weight compared to Europeans. OTOH, the Japanese and Koreans are on some of the most resource-poor real estate in the world.

    China however has the potential to be strong that they could take on and defeat the rest of the world combined and truly conquer and subjugate the whole planet.
     
    Yes, China is the sleeping dragon: the largest high-IQ mono-ethne in a unitary nation-state. On paper, they should be wiping the floor with the rest of us. Maybe they will, eventually.

    The CCP for its part however, has not been too successful in harnessing this potential.
     
    Well, compared to the famine-wracked dystopia of a couple generations ago, they're not doing too badly, and unlike the West, they are still on an upward trajectory.

    Replies: @Svevlad, @Pumblechook, @Caspar Von Everec

    Most white immigrants in Germany are slavs. IIRC, 2-3 million poles, 2 million Russians, 2 million Balkan slavs and several million people from the rest of the EU(Spaniards, Greeks, Italians, Romanians etc).

    Its ironic. Hitler once invaded the east to defend Germany from the slavic hordes, yet today, slavs are the only thing keeping Germany from being as terrible as France. They are now the most welcome guests

  196. @songbird
    @SZ

    I don't really know much about urban politics in India, but I was thinking that the Próspera model might be attractive there.

    That is, you create a city that is less democratic, with the intention of making it more functional and livable. The government farms out taxes to you. You collect a lower rate, but with lower levels of avoidance. I understand that tax avoidance is very high in India.

    Replies: @Caspar Von Everec

    The Indian elite is way too leftists to allow something like that.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @Caspar Von Everec

    I think a lot of egalitarians would accept urban autocracy, if they could test drive it.

  197. @AP
    @Pumblechook

    He is an Anglo supremacist who thinks America had gone downhill since it let in all those Italians, Poles, Irish, etc. If one hates the presence of Italians, naturally one would also lament an influx of Latinos (who are more like Italian peasants than they are like Anglo farmers). If you are a fan of Italy you would probably not mind Latinos too much. I live in a part of the country without a lot of them, but friends who moved to Texas are happy with the Mexicans in their state.

    I’ve noticed that educated Latinos (often Cubans and South Americans) mix well with Slavs. On average they are a bit more dramatic, a bit more sexualized, they prefer rum over vodka - but there is a certain closeness of spirit; Anglos and Germanics are more distant. The Slavic and the Mediterranean worlds are sympathetic cousins.

    There is a class barrier with less educated Latinos, but I imagine they are not too dissimilar to hardworking Slavic peasants from 100 years ago. I hear that in Chicago, Polish-American proles often marry Mexicans living nearby.

    That having been said, a mass influx is disruptive, I do not support open borders.

    Replies: @Pumblechook, @EldnahYm, @mal, @Matra

    He is an Anglo supremacist who thinks America had gone downhill since it let in all those Italians, Poles, Irish, etc. If one hates the presence of Italians, naturally one would also lament an influx of Latinos (who are more like Italian peasants than they are like Anglo farmers). If you are a fan of Italy you would probably not mind Latinos too much. I live in a part of the country without a lot of them, but friends who moved to Texas are happy with the Mexicans in their state.

    Fair enough description, although I don’t really value English people over Scottish or Dutch for example. I wouldn’t mind the Irish if they weren’t corrupt anti-English papists. Some Ulster Scots mixed with local Irish people, and I have so-called Scots-Irish background so it is quite possible I have Irish ancestry. Poles are ok personally, the kindest person I have ever known in my life was a Catholic American of Polish ancestry, but I think the entrance of large number of them introduced an undesirable foreign element. On the other hand, mixes of British with Poles tends to produce entertaining results. See Mike Ditka for an example. Germanic Swiss people were the best immigrants of the Ellis Island era.

    I’m more of a cultural supremacist for Protestant British Isles culture as it evolved in the Americas and a pseudo-Nordicist. So Poles are much higher in my totem pole than Italians.

    There are differences between Italians and Hispanics. In particular, sex crimes. Italians may have murdered each other a lot in the past, and been involved in all sorts of corruption and vice, but they’re not commonly rapists, child molesters, or gropers. Hispanics are. This is always ignored by people who talk about how great Hispanics are. Sex crimes against strangers in the United States is mostly a crime committed by Blacks and Hispanics.

    California Hispanics have tended to be more troublesome than the ones in Texas. Puerto Ricans in New York have historically been criminally inclined and involved in gangs. Florida is a mixed picture compared to Texas or California.

    I’ve noticed that educated Latinos (often Cubans and South Americans) mix well with Slavs. On average they are a bit more dramatic, a bit more sexualized, they prefer rum over vodka – but there is a certain closeness of spirit; Anglos and Germanics are more distant. The Slavic and the Mediterranean worlds are sympathetic cousins.

    There are more important things in life than a shared affinity for sour cream.

    • Replies: @AP
    @EldnahYm


    mixes of British with Poles tends to produce entertaining results. See Mike Ditka for an example
     
    From the Bears website:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20071220123238/http://www.chicagobears.com/tradition/hof-ditka.asp

    Mike's childhood name was Mike Dyzcko. His father was one of three brothers of a Ukrainian family in the coal mining and steel manufacturing area in Western Pennsylvania. The name Dyzcko was too much of a tongue-twister in Carnegie, PA., where Mike was born on October 18, 1939, so the family name was changed to Ditka.

    (His mother was an Anglo I think)

    Italians may have murdered each other a lot in the past, and been involved in all sorts of corruption and vice, but they’re not commonly rapists, child molesters, or gropers. Hispanics are
     
    Any links? I suspect that a lot of any difference can be explained by the much younger nature of the Latino population. But I could be wrong.

    There are more important things in life than a shared affinity for sour cream.
     
    Lol. And mayonnaise. Cubans and Colombians love my wife’s olivie salad.

    But the affinity between our peoples is about more than just the food.
    , @AltanBakshi
    @EldnahYm

    If I would be an Anglo, I would think that USA has gone downhill since 1861. Personally I just want that the current USAtan, with it's missionary liberal and universalistic ideas will fall. I don't much care if it will happen by your country changing into Brazil or into Anglo nationalist state, though isolationist WASP regime in America would probably be better for whole humanity.

    I've never given much value to Latin America. What else that god forsaken place has given us philosophically than just new strains of socialism like the heretic salvation theology? Culturally Latin America is a dead end, and they don't even have same excuses or biological limitations as sub-saharans have. I know that many here on this site disparage various Muslim nations, I tooI feel disdain towards them, but no one can't deny that they have given much to humanity in regards of architecture, poetry and aesthetics, though not really much in matters of spirituality(or if one wants to claim that endless nitpicking about trivial matters is spirituality then what ever), but what have Latin Americans achieved, even though they have a large and fertile continent, where they have resided for five centuries Look what Americans did just in two centuries! Or what Russians did in inhospitable Siberia, Central Asia and Urals, even Arabs developed interesting and highly distinct culture in Maghreb and Sahel.

    Also the backwardness of Latin America is not just because of them being mixed or something, one of my close relatives lived for couple years in Uruguay, which is the most European/White country of South America, and he told me that people there were always late, had no proper concept of time, the place where worked, was often closed, because there were constant labour strikes. From his words I understood that Uruguay was a shitty country of lazy people, and that same relative had lived before, because of his work, in Ukraine and Russia, and he has never complained about those countries in such way. Slav is an Empire builder, as the histories of Bulgaria, Russia and Poland show us, but Latin American is nothing else than a colonial peon.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @AP, @silviosilver, @silviosilver, @silviosilver, @Mikel, @EldnahYm

  198. @Yellowface Anon
    @songbird

    Hugh stretches of Japanese rural areas are more dilapidated than Flyover Country.

    Replies: @Wency

    My takeaway from Japan, as an American who spent a few very enjoyable weeks there and did some traveling in suburbs and smaller cities: a lot of the real estate and infrastructure just looks bad. Even in a lot of prosperous-seeming parts of Tokyo. I have to think a big part of this is that no one wants to invest too much capital into renovating real estate in a country where the population is declining 0.4% per year, so the real estate is just going through a depreciation process even in parts of the country where the population is holding up for the moment.

    I would guess another factor is that in the US there is an active desire to signal that places are good and safe, not “sketchy”, because it’s a more dangerous country. I recall going to a dilapidated and dimly-lit train station in Japan at night that, had it been located in the US, white people wouldn’t dare set foot in the place, imagining they’d be extremely lucky to not get mugged. Instead I saw, among other things, a 10-year-old girl alone there in her school uniform, standing about fearlessly.

    Though, to be clear, I’d still take crappy-looking real estate over migration-driven population growth.

    • Replies: @128
    @Wency

    Huh? As seen on Google street view the roads look to be in good condition, and even minor roads in remote areas are paved, compared to the US where the rural areas are a large part made up of gravel roads, like in Wisconsin, Montana, or Wyoming, very small towns in the Western US do not even have paved roads, unlike in Japan.

    Replies: @Wency

    , @songbird
    @Wency

    Land is often expensive in Japan, so it does not seem to be related to declining population.

    The Japanese build differently. Homes are not built to last. They are often not re-sold but demolished and built again after 25 years. Their postwar culture has always been this way. Maybe, it has to do with mass bombing of cities - is government incentivized to promote the building industry. Maybe, it has to do with Buddhism?

    Seems pretty wasteful. I think any move to pro-natalism would probably require some sort of housing plan.

    IMO, the Japanese are afraid to do what it takes to increase fertility because of their constrained geography, even though they probably have the state/societal capacity to do it. You can't make a spiritual appeal and ask for replacement fertility of 2.1. To turn things around, you've got to go all-out - make a total propaganda/economic effort.

    Replies: @128, @AltanBakshi, @Dmitry

    , @128
    @Wency

    In fact Japanese infrastructure may be overbuilt for its population, especially in the countryside, because the government uses infrastructure spending for pump prime the economy, and also provide construction jobs, like what China is doing.

    , @mal
    @Wency


    Though, to be clear, I’d still take crappy-looking real estate over migration-driven population growth.
     
    This is at odds with our overlords' thinking. Corporations need sales growth and so immigration driven population growth is inevitable. You either breed or get replaced. There is no alternative.


    The native populace fell by more than 430,000 people last year, according to new figures published by the Ministry of Internal Affairs.

    That was partially offset by a record net inflow of more than 161,000 migrants but the overall pace of decline still hit a new high of minus 0.21 per cent. That has left the population at 126.4m, down from a peak of 128m in 2010.
     
    https://www.ft.com/content/29d594fa-5cf2-11e9-9dde-7aedca0a081a

    Japan loses 500k natives and replaces them with 200k migrants per year. This is of course a bit foolish because that Thai construction laborer or Philippina maid won't have the same consumption power as a native Japanese, and they don't breed those anymore. But beggars can't be choosers, so it will be some sort of Basic Income in Japan too, so that migrants can support consumption.
  199. @Wency
    @Yellowface Anon

    My takeaway from Japan, as an American who spent a few very enjoyable weeks there and did some traveling in suburbs and smaller cities: a lot of the real estate and infrastructure just looks bad. Even in a lot of prosperous-seeming parts of Tokyo. I have to think a big part of this is that no one wants to invest too much capital into renovating real estate in a country where the population is declining 0.4% per year, so the real estate is just going through a depreciation process even in parts of the country where the population is holding up for the moment.

    I would guess another factor is that in the US there is an active desire to signal that places are good and safe, not "sketchy", because it's a more dangerous country. I recall going to a dilapidated and dimly-lit train station in Japan at night that, had it been located in the US, white people wouldn't dare set foot in the place, imagining they'd be extremely lucky to not get mugged. Instead I saw, among other things, a 10-year-old girl alone there in her school uniform, standing about fearlessly.

    Though, to be clear, I'd still take crappy-looking real estate over migration-driven population growth.

    Replies: @128, @songbird, @128, @mal

    Huh? As seen on Google street view the roads look to be in good condition, and even minor roads in remote areas are paved, compared to the US where the rural areas are a large part made up of gravel roads, like in Wisconsin, Montana, or Wyoming, very small towns in the Western US do not even have paved roads, unlike in Japan.

    • Replies: @Wency
    @128

    Yeah, Japan does have pretty good roads. I was mainly talking about buildings. The comment on "infrastructure" was more about public buildings, train stations and the like. I didn't see anything that was as bad as the worst you can find in the US, but also saw very little that would qualify as "good" in the US.

  200. @AP
    @Pumblechook

    He is an Anglo supremacist who thinks America had gone downhill since it let in all those Italians, Poles, Irish, etc. If one hates the presence of Italians, naturally one would also lament an influx of Latinos (who are more like Italian peasants than they are like Anglo farmers). If you are a fan of Italy you would probably not mind Latinos too much. I live in a part of the country without a lot of them, but friends who moved to Texas are happy with the Mexicans in their state.

    I’ve noticed that educated Latinos (often Cubans and South Americans) mix well with Slavs. On average they are a bit more dramatic, a bit more sexualized, they prefer rum over vodka - but there is a certain closeness of spirit; Anglos and Germanics are more distant. The Slavic and the Mediterranean worlds are sympathetic cousins.

    There is a class barrier with less educated Latinos, but I imagine they are not too dissimilar to hardworking Slavic peasants from 100 years ago. I hear that in Chicago, Polish-American proles often marry Mexicans living nearby.

    That having been said, a mass influx is disruptive, I do not support open borders.

    Replies: @Pumblechook, @EldnahYm, @mal, @Matra

    I’ve noticed that educated Latinos (often Cubans and South Americans) mix well with Slavs. On average they are a bit more dramatic, a bit more sexualized, they prefer rum over vodka – but there is a certain closeness of spirit;

    Can confirm.

  201. @Wency
    @Yellowface Anon

    My takeaway from Japan, as an American who spent a few very enjoyable weeks there and did some traveling in suburbs and smaller cities: a lot of the real estate and infrastructure just looks bad. Even in a lot of prosperous-seeming parts of Tokyo. I have to think a big part of this is that no one wants to invest too much capital into renovating real estate in a country where the population is declining 0.4% per year, so the real estate is just going through a depreciation process even in parts of the country where the population is holding up for the moment.

    I would guess another factor is that in the US there is an active desire to signal that places are good and safe, not "sketchy", because it's a more dangerous country. I recall going to a dilapidated and dimly-lit train station in Japan at night that, had it been located in the US, white people wouldn't dare set foot in the place, imagining they'd be extremely lucky to not get mugged. Instead I saw, among other things, a 10-year-old girl alone there in her school uniform, standing about fearlessly.

    Though, to be clear, I'd still take crappy-looking real estate over migration-driven population growth.

    Replies: @128, @songbird, @128, @mal

    Land is often expensive in Japan, so it does not seem to be related to declining population.

    The Japanese build differently. Homes are not built to last. They are often not re-sold but demolished and built again after 25 years. Their postwar culture has always been this way. Maybe, it has to do with mass bombing of cities – is government incentivized to promote the building industry. Maybe, it has to do with Buddhism?

    Seems pretty wasteful. I think any move to pro-natalism would probably require some sort of housing plan.

    IMO, the Japanese are afraid to do what it takes to increase fertility because of their constrained geography, even though they probably have the state/societal capacity to do it. You can’t make a spiritual appeal and ask for replacement fertility of 2.1. To turn things around, you’ve got to go all-out – make a total propaganda/economic effort.

    • Thanks: Wency
    • Replies: @128
    @songbird

    90+ percent of Honshu, Shikoku, and Kyushu are mountains. Go to a Tokyo suburb and you see how small the houses are compared to what you see in US suburbs, or even English council housing. And housing in Japan is still quite expensive in the big cities, even after the post-1989 housing decline, a high population growth rate would cause it to rise again. Most Japs would find Hokkaido too snowy and cold to settle in.

    Replies: @songbird

    , @AltanBakshi
    @songbird


    Maybe, it has to do with Buddhism?
     
    Ise shrine is the most holiest place of Shintoism, the shrine of sun goddess Amaterasu herself, and it's demolished and rebuild once in every twenty years.

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/this-japanese-shrine-has-been-torn-down-and-rebuilt-every-20-years-for-the-past-millennium-575558/

    Another good reason, historically speaking, for shabby Japanese building, is that historically there's been lots of earthquakes and typhoons, why build something lasting in such situation?

    Funnily oldest, not rebuild, surviving buildings in Japan are all Buddhist temples or shrines, same is true with China.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon, @Dmitry

    , @Dmitry
    @songbird

    Also Japanese prefer destroying old buildings and replacing them, because of the regularly updated seismic buildings codes, which become more strict with every generation.

    This means the newer buildings will comply with stricter seismic codes, than the older ones.

    So Japanese view that the more regularly you demolish old buildings, the more protected you will be during earthquakes. This is also pumping demand for the construction industry.

    -

    But it seems to me that America's attitude could be similar to the Japanese one - also could often have a more a transitory attitude to buildings than Europeans.

    I know there's the West-European permanence of buildings in Beacon Hill of Boston, or the Brownstone buildings in New York.

    However, the archetypical building of the American people until recently, was - wooden, clapboard house.

    Wooden American houses, can sometimes appear more similar to what they built in Japan or Russian Empire (before Soviet times), than in Western Europe.

    https://i.imgur.com/ZIWaeuZ.jpg

    Traditional American buildings can sometimes appear very un-European, and more like Russia or Japan.

    https://i.imgur.com/mm9kxdL.jpg

    American building like in the Russian Empire.
    https://i.imgur.com/X3qi1F1.jpg

    And the most fashionable shopping street in Los Angeles (Melrose), is like something from a provincial Japanese village in terms of its build quality.

    https://i.imgur.com/KHHw28H.jpg

    -

    Of course, things are changing in recent decades. A lot of the recent building in America, looks more often of permanent appearance and stone construction.

    A large part of the new construction seems to be more like this stone, permanent, high quality, square, heavy buildings, of oversized dimensions.

    https://i.imgur.com/8S67nKI.jpg

    Replies: @songbird

  202. @Wency
    @Yellowface Anon

    My takeaway from Japan, as an American who spent a few very enjoyable weeks there and did some traveling in suburbs and smaller cities: a lot of the real estate and infrastructure just looks bad. Even in a lot of prosperous-seeming parts of Tokyo. I have to think a big part of this is that no one wants to invest too much capital into renovating real estate in a country where the population is declining 0.4% per year, so the real estate is just going through a depreciation process even in parts of the country where the population is holding up for the moment.

    I would guess another factor is that in the US there is an active desire to signal that places are good and safe, not "sketchy", because it's a more dangerous country. I recall going to a dilapidated and dimly-lit train station in Japan at night that, had it been located in the US, white people wouldn't dare set foot in the place, imagining they'd be extremely lucky to not get mugged. Instead I saw, among other things, a 10-year-old girl alone there in her school uniform, standing about fearlessly.

    Though, to be clear, I'd still take crappy-looking real estate over migration-driven population growth.

    Replies: @128, @songbird, @128, @mal

    In fact Japanese infrastructure may be overbuilt for its population, especially in the countryside, because the government uses infrastructure spending for pump prime the economy, and also provide construction jobs, like what China is doing.

  203. @songbird
    @Wency

    Land is often expensive in Japan, so it does not seem to be related to declining population.

    The Japanese build differently. Homes are not built to last. They are often not re-sold but demolished and built again after 25 years. Their postwar culture has always been this way. Maybe, it has to do with mass bombing of cities - is government incentivized to promote the building industry. Maybe, it has to do with Buddhism?

    Seems pretty wasteful. I think any move to pro-natalism would probably require some sort of housing plan.

    IMO, the Japanese are afraid to do what it takes to increase fertility because of their constrained geography, even though they probably have the state/societal capacity to do it. You can't make a spiritual appeal and ask for replacement fertility of 2.1. To turn things around, you've got to go all-out - make a total propaganda/economic effort.

    Replies: @128, @AltanBakshi, @Dmitry

    90+ percent of Honshu, Shikoku, and Kyushu are mountains. Go to a Tokyo suburb and you see how small the houses are compared to what you see in US suburbs, or even English council housing. And housing in Japan is still quite expensive in the big cities, even after the post-1989 housing decline, a high population growth rate would cause it to rise again. Most Japs would find Hokkaido too snowy and cold to settle in.

    • Replies: @songbird
    @128

    After WW2, in addition to all the destroyed cities, over 6 million Japanese were repatriated into Japan. Japan should have tried to hold on to Manchukuo, rather that move South.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @AltanBakshi

  204. @Wency
    @Yellowface Anon

    My takeaway from Japan, as an American who spent a few very enjoyable weeks there and did some traveling in suburbs and smaller cities: a lot of the real estate and infrastructure just looks bad. Even in a lot of prosperous-seeming parts of Tokyo. I have to think a big part of this is that no one wants to invest too much capital into renovating real estate in a country where the population is declining 0.4% per year, so the real estate is just going through a depreciation process even in parts of the country where the population is holding up for the moment.

    I would guess another factor is that in the US there is an active desire to signal that places are good and safe, not "sketchy", because it's a more dangerous country. I recall going to a dilapidated and dimly-lit train station in Japan at night that, had it been located in the US, white people wouldn't dare set foot in the place, imagining they'd be extremely lucky to not get mugged. Instead I saw, among other things, a 10-year-old girl alone there in her school uniform, standing about fearlessly.

    Though, to be clear, I'd still take crappy-looking real estate over migration-driven population growth.

    Replies: @128, @songbird, @128, @mal

    Though, to be clear, I’d still take crappy-looking real estate over migration-driven population growth.

    This is at odds with our overlords’ thinking. Corporations need sales growth and so immigration driven population growth is inevitable. You either breed or get replaced. There is no alternative.

    The native populace fell by more than 430,000 people last year, according to new figures published by the Ministry of Internal Affairs.

    That was partially offset by a record net inflow of more than 161,000 migrants but the overall pace of decline still hit a new high of minus 0.21 per cent. That has left the population at 126.4m, down from a peak of 128m in 2010.

    https://www.ft.com/content/29d594fa-5cf2-11e9-9dde-7aedca0a081a

    Japan loses 500k natives and replaces them with 200k migrants per year. This is of course a bit foolish because that Thai construction laborer or Philippina maid won’t have the same consumption power as a native Japanese, and they don’t breed those anymore. But beggars can’t be choosers, so it will be some sort of Basic Income in Japan too, so that migrants can support consumption.

  205. @Caspar Von Everec
    @songbird

    The Indian elite is way too leftists to allow something like that.

    Replies: @songbird

    I think a lot of egalitarians would accept urban autocracy, if they could test drive it.

  206. @songbird
    @Wency

    Land is often expensive in Japan, so it does not seem to be related to declining population.

    The Japanese build differently. Homes are not built to last. They are often not re-sold but demolished and built again after 25 years. Their postwar culture has always been this way. Maybe, it has to do with mass bombing of cities - is government incentivized to promote the building industry. Maybe, it has to do with Buddhism?

    Seems pretty wasteful. I think any move to pro-natalism would probably require some sort of housing plan.

    IMO, the Japanese are afraid to do what it takes to increase fertility because of their constrained geography, even though they probably have the state/societal capacity to do it. You can't make a spiritual appeal and ask for replacement fertility of 2.1. To turn things around, you've got to go all-out - make a total propaganda/economic effort.

    Replies: @128, @AltanBakshi, @Dmitry

    Maybe, it has to do with Buddhism?

    Ise shrine is the most holiest place of Shintoism, the shrine of sun goddess Amaterasu herself, and it’s demolished and rebuild once in every twenty years.

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/this-japanese-shrine-has-been-torn-down-and-rebuilt-every-20-years-for-the-past-millennium-575558/

    Another good reason, historically speaking, for shabby Japanese building, is that historically there’s been lots of earthquakes and typhoons, why build something lasting in such situation?

    Funnily oldest, not rebuild, surviving buildings in Japan are all Buddhist temples or shrines, same is true with China.

    • Thanks: songbird
    • Replies: @Yellowface Anon
    @AltanBakshi

    Those religious buildings were designed to be earthquake-proof.

    , @Dmitry
    @AltanBakshi

    Japanese have a particular attitude* to buildings (low investment and transitoriness) which is represented in thee Shrine and response to their destruction in earthquakes, tsunamis and typhoons, as you said, however - they also don't have shabby buildings, if you can ignore messy overhead wiring, so I'm not sure where this conversation is coming from.

    Some Americans are delusional if they are saying that American public spaces are as good as public spaces are in Japan on average.

    The public spaces in Japan are much better than in America, on average. (In America, the best places are private spaces).

    When I've been in America, I've seen a lot of crazy and scary things in the public spaces, whereas in Japan everything in the public spaces was carefully maintained, well designed and functional, although usually unaesthetic.

    Public spaces in America are often more like something from a Second World country, than First World country. That's not to say as a criticism of America, as this is their own prioritization - private wealth; public squalor.

    In America, has a different attitude to the public sphere, and it's a country which is very successful in providing a large of luxury to it private sphere. If you design a country to maximize supply of private luxury at the expense of everything else, then it will be quite like America.

    -

    * Although Americans also have aspects of this transitory attitude to buildings, that contrasts with Western Europe.

    For example, when Thoreau wants to retreat from the world, he goes to a wooden house.

    Compared with the Western European attitude - biographically, Yeats, retreated, to a stone tower, as does Montaigne, as does Jung.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  207. @Vishnugupta
    @Blade

    Talking Turkey?

    Anatolian Turks are genetically Greek, a conquered and converted people ashamed of their own blood.

    Centuries of inbreeding have made you relatively violent and stupid.

    Turk scientific achievements in Turkey are what exactly?A few radio controlled drones?

    To think you are the generic descendants of people who could create the Antikythera mechanism a millennium and a half before anyone else.

    But its part of a pattern the genetic ancestors of Afghans produced Panini etc. look at them today.

    Replies: @Blade, @Daniel Chieh

    Turk scientific achievements in Turkey are what exactly?A few radio controlled drones?

    Turkish drones have been genuinely impressive as of late, one should give them that. Otherwise, there’s unfortunately been a lot of difficulties to Turkish achievement, which is interesting because it does feel like the human capital is there but the overall culture seems intellectual stifling.

    • Replies: @Vishnugupta
    @Daniel Chieh

    Yes indeed which is why I have pointed that out as a significant achievement but they are not in the same league as stealth UCAV drones about to be deployed by major powers this decade and the Turks will be dependant on foreign inputs in terms of jet engines for their production and satellite networks for their navigation if they ever attempt to build something similar.

    Your observation is true wherever Islamic culture takes root.

    Take Armenia (Artem Mikoyan,Boris Babian and half a dozen other technical greats of the USSR) and Georgia(World leaders in Phage therapy) on one hand and the good for nothing Muslim inhabitants of the Caucasus.

    Take India and Pakistan,Serbia and Albania.All over the world it is the same story.Wherever this religion/culture establishes itself intellectual and scientific capabilities generally declines.

    Replies: @steinbergfeldwitzcohen

    , @dux.ie
    @Daniel Chieh

    >> Turk scientific achievements in Turkey are what exactly?A few radio controlled drones?

    In wireless communication Arikan (inventor of the polar code for 5G telecommunication) from Turkey is next to the Shannon God. The Americans seem unable to grasp the performance of the invention, even when Arikan offered to work with the American Qualcomm. Only the Chinese can see the commercial importance. There is no IP stealing. It was published openly and Arikan did not patent the idea. Huawei board took only 20 minutes to decide initially to spent USD$600 million for the R&D on the 5G polar code, the rest is history.


    https://www.wired.com/story/huawei-5g-polar-codes-data-breakthrough/
    A Turkish scientist’s obscure theoretical breakthrough helped the Chinese tech giant gain control of the future. US telecoms never had a chance.

    This honored guest is not a world leader, a billionaire magnate, nor a war hero. He is a relatively unknown Turkish academic named Erdal Arıkan.

    Arıkan isn't exactly ordinary. Ten years earlier, he'd made a major discovery in the field of information theory. Huawei then plucked his theoretical breakthrough from academic obscurity and, with large investments and top engineering talent, fashioned it into something of value in the realm of commerce. The company then muscled and negotiated to get that innovation into something so big it could not be denied: the basic 5G technology now being rolled out all over the world.

    Erdal Arikan was born in 1958 and grew up in Western Turkey, the son of a doctor and a homemaker. because of his excellent test scores he managed to transfer to CalTech, one of the world's top science-oriented institutions, in Pasadena, California. What gripped him (Arikan) most was solving a challenge that Shannon himself had spelled out in his 1948 paper: how to transport accurate information at high speed while defeating the inevitable “noise”—undesirable alterations of the message—introduced in the process of moving all those bits. The problem was known as channel capacity. According to Shannon, every communications channel had a kind of speed limit for transmitting information reliably. This as-yet-unattained theoretical boundary was referred to as the Shannon limit.

    Arıkan finished his doctoral thesis in 1986, and after a brief stint at the University of Illinois he returned to Turkey to join the country's first private, nonprofit research institution, Bilkent University, located on the outskirts of Ankara.

    The best people are in the US, but why aren't they working for 10 years, 20 years on the same problem?” he said. “Because they wouldn't be able to get tenure; they wouldn't be able to get research funding.” Rather than advancing his field in tiny increments, he went on a monumental quest. It would be his work for the next 20 years.

    Arıkan's new solution was to create near-perfect channels from ordinary channels by a process he called “channel polarization.” Noise would be transferred from one channel to a copy of the same channel to create a cleaner copy and a dirtier one. After a recursive series of such steps, two sets of channels emerge, one set being extremely noisy, the other being almost noise-free. The channels that are scrubbed of noise, in theory, can attain the Shannon limit. He dubbed his solution polar codes. It's as if the noise was banished to the North Pole, allowing for pristine communications at the South Pole.

    In 2009 he published his definitive paper in the field's top journal, IEEE Transactions on Information Theory. It didn't exactly make him a household name, but within the small community of information theorists, polar codes were a sensation. He (Arikan) didn't even bother to get a patent.

    In 2013, Wen Tong asked Huawei's investment board for $600 million for 5G research. “Very simple,” Tong says. “20 minutes, and they decided.” The answer was yes, and a good deal of that money went into polar codes. Today Huawei holds more than two-thirds of the polar code patent “families”—10 times as many as its nearest competitor.

     

    Replies: @Grahamsno(G64)

  208. @128
    @songbird

    90+ percent of Honshu, Shikoku, and Kyushu are mountains. Go to a Tokyo suburb and you see how small the houses are compared to what you see in US suburbs, or even English council housing. And housing in Japan is still quite expensive in the big cities, even after the post-1989 housing decline, a high population growth rate would cause it to rise again. Most Japs would find Hokkaido too snowy and cold to settle in.

    Replies: @songbird

    After WW2, in addition to all the destroyed cities, over 6 million Japanese were repatriated into Japan. Japan should have tried to hold on to Manchukuo, rather that move South.

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    @songbird


    Japan should have tried to hold on to Manchukuo, rather that move South.
     
    They tried.

    https://i.redd.it/tk6x05zhql041.jpg


    Even if 80% of Imperial Japanese Army troops had remained in Manchuria, I don't think it would of mattered to the Red Army. If the Wehrmacht failed, good luck to the dwarf devils.


    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS3CWP043JrCtic9idD8LbYaHrksXpMsnRm6w&usqp.jpg

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @songbird

    , @AltanBakshi
    @songbird


    Japan should have tried to hold on to Manchukuo, rather that move South.
     
    Do you mean that Japanese should have not have attacked Southern British, Dutch and American hold territories in 1941, or not attacked China in 1937?

    my idea is that Japan could have conciliated the US, while holding onto its circa 1932 territories, presenting itself as a bulwark against communism.
     
    German leadership entertained such dreams in the early 1945, but Western Allies explicitly denied all chances of separate peace in the West. Also USA was very Anti-Japanese and moderately Pro-Chinese. Japan was seen as a strategic threat on the Western pacific.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @songbird, @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

  209. AP says:
    @AltanBakshi
    @AP

    It depends on wholly on what we choose as our historical reference point. To me the historically most authentic Turks are Göktürks, who were first to call themselves Türks, and had the first recorded Turkic language. Written language is necessary for people to be truly living in a history, and not in pre-history. So my reference point is the 6th and 7th century Göktürks in regards of who are the most authentic Türks of history, and all other Türks derive their level of Türkicness in relation of how closely they are related genetically and culturally with the Göktürks and their Türk Khaganate. Thus we must choose a historical reference point, or loci and look how things relate with it. This is of course just my personal way to establish the truth in regards of such worldly matters as which ethnicity is more authentic as a Türk, or as an Aryan.

    Were not the first Slavs with a written language Bulgars? Did not Greeks call them first by the name of the Slav? Are they not then the Ur-Slavs of the history? Or is your classification of who is the most original Slav different? Of course the Slavic Urheimat was probably somewhere Between modern day Germany and Russia, I understand if people of those lands are in your opinion the most original Slavs.

    Replies: @AP

    Were not the first Slavs with a written language Bulgars? Did not Greeks call them first by the name of the Slav

    IIRC at that time the Slavs that had come down had not yet become fully absorbed by the natives so there were still discrete unmixed Slavic population down there, rather than as now, a Balkan population of 20% Slavic descent.

    Basically the former Ottoman Empire is the homeland of LARPers. A bunch of Thracians or Albanians pretending to be Slavs and a bunch of Anatolians mixed with Arabs and Persians pretending to be Turks. Only Greeks, Albanians and Armenians are straightforward. Kurds also.

    • Replies: @Yahya K.
    @AP


    Basically the former Ottoman Empire is the homeland of LARPers. A bunch of Thracians or Albanians pretending to be Slavs and a bunch of Anatolians mixed with Arabs and Persians pretending to be Turks. Only Greeks, Albanians and Armenians are straightforward. Kurds also.

     

    Turks in Turkey are mostly a mix of Greek, Armenian, and Georgian - not Arab or Persian.

    Sometimes the Turkish fascination with the biological comes out in strange ways, Turkish genealogy database fascinates, frightens Turks. Much of the discussion has to do with prejudice against Armenians and Jews. But the reality is that most Turks at some level do understand that they are descended from Greeks, Armenians, Georgians, etc.

    https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2018/02/24/are-turks-armenians-under-the-hood/
     

    They are mostly descended from the peoples of antiquity, except they have a minor East Asian component which came from the Turkic invaders of Central Asia.

    In plainer language, the people of modern-day Turkey mostly resemble the people who lived in Turkey before the battle of Manzikert and the migration of Turkic nomads into the interior of the peninsula in the 11th century A.D. Of course, there is some genetic element which shows that there was a migration of an East Asian people into modern day Anatolia, but this component in the minority one.**

     

    There is regional variation as well. Western Anatolian Turks have more European (from Greece and the Balkans) blood and less East Asian than their compatriots further into the heartland.

    Georgians have none of the Northern European sort of ancestry, but Armenians do, and Turks even more. One could posit that this is due to Slavic ancestry arriving with the Rumelian Turks who arrived in the 20th century, but just as likely is the possibility that Turks have a lot of ancestry from western Anatolia which was Greek, and Greeks have more of this than Armenians.

     

    Turks in Eastern Anatolia have more Armenian blood:

    Demographically we know that historically much of eastern Anatolia was dominated by Armenians. Many of the prominent Byzantine dynasties were of Hellenized Armenian lineages. I would predict that one will likely find that most of the Turks of eastern Anatolia would cluster with Armenians, just as those Turks from the west and coastal Anatolia might cluster more with Greeks, because it seems likely that the ethnogenesis of most Turks in Anatolia was a process whereby Greeks and Armenians assimilated to the identity of a small minority of eastern Turkish invaders.

    https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2010/02/19/armenian-genetics/

     

    , @Yellowface Anon
    @AP

    Modern Greek are also quite mixed after the long post-Antiquity years. Lots of Slavic and Albanian blood, not the mention Illyrian, Thracian and Anatolian ones, have blended into the old Hellenic stock.

    Near East (Greece included) has always been a melting pot of sorts.

  210. Pffft Turkish fear in this thread. Russians and their lackeys are reeking it badly. It doesn’t matter what some random nobodies on the internet claim about Turkish ancestry (in which they love to claim Turks are mixed with everyone else, but somehow every enemy of Turks are pure race nobles lol). Turks will eventually unite, and that will be at the expense of Russia. Whether you like it or not it will happen. If you want to investigate some people’s origins, perhaps you should first start with scraping the Orthodox paint and find your Tatar roots.

    • LOL: Bashibuzuk
    • Replies: @Daniel Chieh
    @Blade

    You certainly don't make yourself very likeable.

    Replies: @Blade

    , @AltanBakshi
    @Blade

    https://i.redd.it/v28nd6xk6be61.jpg

  211. AP says:
    @EldnahYm
    @AP


    He is an Anglo supremacist who thinks America had gone downhill since it let in all those Italians, Poles, Irish, etc. If one hates the presence of Italians, naturally one would also lament an influx of Latinos (who are more like Italian peasants than they are like Anglo farmers). If you are a fan of Italy you would probably not mind Latinos too much. I live in a part of the country without a lot of them, but friends who moved to Texas are happy with the Mexicans in their state.
     
    Fair enough description, although I don't really value English people over Scottish or Dutch for example. I wouldn't mind the Irish if they weren't corrupt anti-English papists. Some Ulster Scots mixed with local Irish people, and I have so-called Scots-Irish background so it is quite possible I have Irish ancestry. Poles are ok personally, the kindest person I have ever known in my life was a Catholic American of Polish ancestry, but I think the entrance of large number of them introduced an undesirable foreign element. On the other hand, mixes of British with Poles tends to produce entertaining results. See Mike Ditka for an example. Germanic Swiss people were the best immigrants of the Ellis Island era.

    I'm more of a cultural supremacist for Protestant British Isles culture as it evolved in the Americas and a pseudo-Nordicist. So Poles are much higher in my totem pole than Italians.

    There are differences between Italians and Hispanics. In particular, sex crimes. Italians may have murdered each other a lot in the past, and been involved in all sorts of corruption and vice, but they're not commonly rapists, child molesters, or gropers. Hispanics are. This is always ignored by people who talk about how great Hispanics are. Sex crimes against strangers in the United States is mostly a crime committed by Blacks and Hispanics.

    California Hispanics have tended to be more troublesome than the ones in Texas. Puerto Ricans in New York have historically been criminally inclined and involved in gangs. Florida is a mixed picture compared to Texas or California.


    I’ve noticed that educated Latinos (often Cubans and South Americans) mix well with Slavs. On average they are a bit more dramatic, a bit more sexualized, they prefer rum over vodka – but there is a certain closeness of spirit; Anglos and Germanics are more distant. The Slavic and the Mediterranean worlds are sympathetic cousins.
     
    There are more important things in life than a shared affinity for sour cream.

    Replies: @AP, @AltanBakshi

    mixes of British with Poles tends to produce entertaining results. See Mike Ditka for an example

    From the Bears website:

    https://web.archive.org/web/20071220123238/http://www.chicagobears.com/tradition/hof-ditka.asp

    Mike’s childhood name was Mike Dyzcko. His father was one of three brothers of a Ukrainian family in the coal mining and steel manufacturing area in Western Pennsylvania. The name Dyzcko was too much of a tongue-twister in Carnegie, PA., where Mike was born on October 18, 1939, so the family name was changed to Ditka.

    (His mother was an Anglo I think)

    Italians may have murdered each other a lot in the past, and been involved in all sorts of corruption and vice, but they’re not commonly rapists, child molesters, or gropers. Hispanics are

    Any links? I suspect that a lot of any difference can be explained by the much younger nature of the Latino population. But I could be wrong.

    There are more important things in life than a shared affinity for sour cream.

    Lol. And mayonnaise. Cubans and Colombians love my wife’s olivie salad.

    But the affinity between our peoples is about more than just the food.

  212. @Daniel Chieh
    @Vishnugupta


    Turk scientific achievements in Turkey are what exactly?A few radio controlled drones?

     

    Turkish drones have been genuinely impressive as of late, one should give them that. Otherwise, there's unfortunately been a lot of difficulties to Turkish achievement, which is interesting because it does feel like the human capital is there but the overall culture seems intellectual stifling.

    Replies: @Vishnugupta, @dux.ie

    Yes indeed which is why I have pointed that out as a significant achievement but they are not in the same league as stealth UCAV drones about to be deployed by major powers this decade and the Turks will be dependant on foreign inputs in terms of jet engines for their production and satellite networks for their navigation if they ever attempt to build something similar.

    Your observation is true wherever Islamic culture takes root.

    Take Armenia (Artem Mikoyan,Boris Babian and half a dozen other technical greats of the USSR) and Georgia(World leaders in Phage therapy) on one hand and the good for nothing Muslim inhabitants of the Caucasus.

    Take India and Pakistan,Serbia and Albania.All over the world it is the same story.Wherever this religion/culture establishes itself intellectual and scientific capabilities generally declines.

    • Replies: @steinbergfeldwitzcohen
    @Vishnugupta

    Islam is pure poison. I agree completely. The Abrahamic mind virus destroys human potential wherever it goes.
    I am really hoping that Islam, Judaism and Christianity all slowly die out over time.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @AltanBakshi

  213. @Blade
    Pffft Turkish fear in this thread. Russians and their lackeys are reeking it badly. It doesn't matter what some random nobodies on the internet claim about Turkish ancestry (in which they love to claim Turks are mixed with everyone else, but somehow every enemy of Turks are pure race nobles lol). Turks will eventually unite, and that will be at the expense of Russia. Whether you like it or not it will happen. If you want to investigate some people's origins, perhaps you should first start with scraping the Orthodox paint and find your Tatar roots.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @AltanBakshi

    You certainly don’t make yourself very likeable.

    • Replies: @Blade
    @Daniel Chieh

    It doesn't matter. Turkey's position is not much different than China's. Unless we do everything outsiders want us to do, they will continue attacking Turkey for this or that reason anyway. You just don't get fazed.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @Daniel Chieh

  214. @Blade
    Pffft Turkish fear in this thread. Russians and their lackeys are reeking it badly. It doesn't matter what some random nobodies on the internet claim about Turkish ancestry (in which they love to claim Turks are mixed with everyone else, but somehow every enemy of Turks are pure race nobles lol). Turks will eventually unite, and that will be at the expense of Russia. Whether you like it or not it will happen. If you want to investigate some people's origins, perhaps you should first start with scraping the Orthodox paint and find your Tatar roots.

    Replies: @Daniel Chieh, @AltanBakshi

  215. @DNS
    @Svevlad


    Funnily enough, it’s the Dravidian states in India that are the richer, more productive and high IQ.
     
    Interestingly, there seems to be a positive correlation between "Dravidian" (actually "Ancestral South Indian" as coined by David Reich) admixture and HDI.

    https://i.imgur.com/hJS0rYY.jpg

    Although the most dysfunctional parts of India are located in the BIMARU states while the North-West states like Haryana and Punjab are pretty decent.

    Pakistan is likely very backwards due to the corrupting influence of Islamism, it used to be a fairly advanced country until Zia ul-Haq brought about sweeping Islamisation measures which radically transformed the fabric of Pakistani society for the worse.

    Replies: @Shango

    I only have a moderate understanding of the teaching and history of islam , but how can some military leader of Pakistan islamize the country when it majority of the country is muslim.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @Shango

    It was mainly Sufi and partly Shia. He forced it to become more Salafi.

    Replies: @steinbergfeldwitzcohen

    , @DNS
    @Shango

    Pakistan was intended as a Muslim state, one where the majority of the inhabitants are Muslims, and not an Islamic state where the laws reflect Sharia.

    When Pakistan came into being in August 1947, it's official name was the "Dominion of Pakistan" and it was only in 1956 that it became the "Islamic Republic of Pakistan", but even then there were no laws brought about for such a name change to he justified, it was only in the late 1970s that this process began under General Zia, who himself was a pious Muslim and thought his actions would improve Pakistan's national cohesion and prominence in the Islamic world.

    , @DNS
    @Shango

    Pakistan was intended as a Muslim state, one where the majority of the inhabitants are Muslims, and not an Islamic state where the laws reflect Sharia.

    When Pakistan came into being in August 1947, it's official name was the "Dominion of Pakistan" and it was only in 1956 that it became the "Islamic Republic of Pakistan", but even then there were no laws brought about for such a name change to he justified, it was only in the late 1970s that this process began under General Zia, who himself was a pious Muslim and thought his actions would improve Pakistan's national cohesion and prominence in the Islamic world.

    , @DNS
    @Shango

    Pakistan was intended as a Muslim state, one where the majority of the inhabitants are Muslims, and not an Islamic state where the laws reflect Sharia.

    When Pakistan came into being in August 1947, it's official name was the "Dominion of Pakistan" and it was only in 1956 that it became the "Islamic Republic of Pakistan", but even then there were no laws brought about for such a name change to he justified, it was only in the late 1970s that this process began under General Zia, who himself was a pious Muslim and thought his actions would improve Pakistan's national cohesion and prominence in the Islamic world.

  216. @Pumblechook
    @AP

    Well, I am from a southern Italian family, so there is your answer ha -

    But sure, this is not a paean to open borders for the United States. What I meant is simply what I said; if you have greedy soulless neo-liberals running your country and determined to replace your neighbours, then I'd rather the wheel of life puts me next to Jose and Maria, not Abdulkader and Khadija.

    Replies: @silviosilver

    then I’d rather the wheel of life puts me next to Jose and Maria, not Abdulkader and Khadija.

    If you’re talking about next door neighbors, there is absolutely fuck all guarantee that Jose and Maria are going to be better people. (Picture some squat, tatted up indios who blast ranchera music, speak hispano-retardo grade English and toss their trash on your lawn – you want that scum for neighbors?)

    If you’re talking about the entire neighborhood going either spic or muzz, in my book you’re screwed either way. And though middle class spic would be preferable to middle class muzz, the latter aren’t necessarily a complete horror show.

    • Replies: @AP
    @silviosilver


    If you’re talking about next door neighbors, there is absolutely fuck all guarantee that Jose and Maria are going to be better people. (Picture some squat, tatted up indios who blast ranchera music, speak hispano-retardo grade English and toss their trash on your lawn – you want that scum for neighbors?)
     
    Those would only be his neighbors if he himself was a tattooed up, meth using white dude with a lot of missing teeth. In which case it's hard to say who would be better or worse.

    Replies: @Matra

    , @Blinky Bill
    @silviosilver

    https://youtu.be/momB9-4qAXk

    Replies: @Another German Reader

  217. @Daniel Chieh
    @Blade

    You certainly don't make yourself very likeable.

    Replies: @Blade

    It doesn’t matter. Turkey’s position is not much different than China’s. Unless we do everything outsiders want us to do, they will continue attacking Turkey for this or that reason anyway. You just don’t get fazed.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @Blade

    Look, I actually have a rather positive opinion about Turks. But Altan is right: you are mainly Mediterranean and Anatolian. There should be no shame about that, these people built Gobekli tepe and Çatalhöyük. The earliest civilization was born there and nearly half of your population still carries their genetic lineage. Your people is quite gifted because of that, not some Akhal Teke riding Kipchak whom were only good at imposing themselves upon the more civilized people and exploiting them.

    BTW if you go and read my comments, you will find that I wrote a couple of things about the Ashina Clan Tokharian roots and the genetics of early Huns and Avars.

    Feel free to educate yourself...

    Replies: @Morton's toes

    , @Daniel Chieh
    @Blade

    Yeah, that's why China has a plummeting currency and moribund scientific contributions while randomly antagonizing its neighborhood for no reason.

    Wait, China is none of those things.

  218. There should be a separate world almanac for civilized countries, with such statistics as:
    -number of rocket launches
    -tons to orbit
    -sq. kilometres of land reclaimed
    -# of Africans deported

    Hard to find up to date info for China, but I’d estimate that they’ve at least reclaimed an area equivalent to the Kantō Plain, since WW2. If only the Dutch could build windmills that would deport undesirables.

    • Agree: mal
    • LOL: Anatoly Karlin
    • Replies: @mal
    @songbird

    I don’t know about the rest, but Wiki keeps track of numbers for launches.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_in_spaceflight

    For orbital launches this year, Chinese had 10 launches for 9 successful, Russians 7 for 7, Indians 1 for 1, and Americans 16 for 16, of which 11 was Musk.

    Say what you will about Musk, but he keeps those Falcons in the air.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

  219. @Shango
    @DNS

    I only have a moderate understanding of the teaching and history of islam , but how can some military leader of Pakistan islamize the country when it majority of the country is muslim.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @DNS, @DNS, @DNS

    It was mainly Sufi and partly Shia. He forced it to become more Salafi.

    • Replies: @steinbergfeldwitzcohen
    @Bashibuzuk

    Is it all about which madrassah group you fund?

    In general, Pakistan seems to be getting worse and worse with time.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  220. @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    I had the good fortune of accidentally locating a copy of Akhatanhel's Krytmsky's "History of Turkey" while meandering the streets of the Podil area in Kyiv. Krymsky was a world class Orientalist and linguist (of Tatar ancestry) whose intellectual acumen was only rivaled by Michael Hrushevsky. He was a staunch Ukrainophile, who ended up paying dearly for his beliefs:


    Krymsky researched the history of the Ukrainian language. As he was an opponent of Aleksei Sobolevsky's claim that the language of the ancient Kyivan Rus’ was more Russian, than Ukrainian,[2] he wrote three polemical studies in 1904-07 on this question, later his views on the language of the Kyivan Rus were summarized in Українська мова, звідкіля вона взялася і як розвивалася ("The Ukrainian Language: Whence It Came and How It Developed")
     
    His "History of Turkey" delves into much detail about the ethnogenesis of the modern Turkish nation (The Turkish government to this day hold the man in great esteem), and offers insights into its histroy like no other book on Turkish history that I've read. It's a great crime against humanity that nobody has been able to publish his six volume history of the Khazars!
    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/5/54/Stamp_of_Ukraine_s104.jpg/220px-Stamp_of_Ukraine_s104.jpg

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahatanhel_Krymsky
    A good short schematic about Krymsky's life

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    The Turkish government to this day holds the man in great esteem


    Ukraine’s Ambassador to Turkey Andrii Sybiha (L) recieves a gift during a conference held to commemorate the Ukrainian scholar Ahatanhel Krymsky, also known for his studies on Turkology, on the occasion of his 150th birthday at the Ulucanlar Prison Museum in Ankara, Turkey on February 10, 2021. Photo: Rabia İclal Turan – Anadolu Agency

    Krimsky has posthumously been honored elsewhere in the Asian world, including Pakistan. His erudition was immense, he fluently could converse in 16 languages and had a working understanding of 52. He wrote mainly (but not exclusively) about Ukrainian, Turkic, Persian and Arabic historical and literary topics. A well known and admired orientalist in Moscow too.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @Mr. Hack

    Thanks Mr Hack, I will have to look into this.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  221. @Blade
    @Daniel Chieh

    It doesn't matter. Turkey's position is not much different than China's. Unless we do everything outsiders want us to do, they will continue attacking Turkey for this or that reason anyway. You just don't get fazed.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @Daniel Chieh

    Look, I actually have a rather positive opinion about Turks. But Altan is right: you are mainly Mediterranean and Anatolian. There should be no shame about that, these people built Gobekli tepe and Çatalhöyük. The earliest civilization was born there and nearly half of your population still carries their genetic lineage. Your people is quite gifted because of that, not some Akhal Teke riding Kipchak whom were only good at imposing themselves upon the more civilized people and exploiting them.

    BTW if you go and read my comments, you will find that I wrote a couple of things about the Ashina Clan Tokharian roots and the genetics of early Huns and Avars.

    Feel free to educate yourself…

    • Replies: @Morton's toes
    @Bashibuzuk


    BTW if you go and read my comments, you will find that I wrote a couple of things about the Ashina Clan Tokharian roots and the genetics of early Huns and Avars.
     
    Have you read this book by any chance?

    https://www.amazon.com/Story-Waiting-Pierce-You-Mongolia/dp/1890350214

    If not you might be interested. Kingsley's text is only 84 pp but he has 90 pp of fine print endnotes. His inferences are a little stretched but oh my. He has:

    Pythagoras' mentor was an Avar;
    Genghis Khan performed a disinfecting action on a corrupt continent that was utterly stagnant before him and subsequently blossomed;
    The Tibetan Buddhists genocided the shamans and stole all their best ideas (all the best ideas of the Tibetan Budddhists started out as the best ideas of the shamans they destroyed).

    He has a saintly portrayal of Genghis Khan. GK conquered the most luxuriant cities and immediately retreated to his tent/camp because he was only at home out in the wild. He went here and there at the direction of some celestial messenger. &c. There is an anecdote about the European trip and some Euro soldiers who were completely spooked after they captured one of GK's scouts and he was an English army guy who had been banished and GK had taken him right in.

    It is one of the more interesting alternative histories I have seen. A couple days after I read it I had to go back and read it over again half as fast.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  222. @Mr. Hack
    @Mr. Hack


    The Turkish government to this day holds the man in great esteem
     
    https://cdnuploads.aa.com.tr/uploads/Contents/2021/02/10/thumbs_b_c_4ecf191534c8c343cc0e87ead42e071a.jpg?v=201151
    Ukraine’s Ambassador to Turkey Andrii Sybiha (L) recieves a gift during a conference held to commemorate the Ukrainian scholar Ahatanhel Krymsky, also known for his studies on Turkology, on the occasion of his 150th birthday at the Ulucanlar Prison Museum in Ankara, Turkey on February 10, 2021. Photo: Rabia İclal Turan - Anadolu Agency

    Krimsky has posthumously been honored elsewhere in the Asian world, including Pakistan. His erudition was immense, he fluently could converse in 16 languages and had a working understanding of 52. He wrote mainly (but not exclusively) about Ukrainian, Turkic, Persian and Arabic historical and literary topics. A well known and admired orientalist in Moscow too.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    Thanks Mr Hack, I will have to look into this.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @Bashibuzuk

    There's actually a good amount of information that you can find about Krimsky through google and the internet. Like I said above, I have a copy of his "History of Turkey" in Ukrainian and find it a great addition to my personal library. I've tried to obtain a copy of his personal memoirs including information regarding hist first trip to the Middle East, but alas to no avail. :-(

  223. @Bashibuzuk
    @Mr. Hack

    Thanks Mr Hack, I will have to look into this.

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    There’s actually a good amount of information that you can find about Krimsky through google and the internet. Like I said above, I have a copy of his “History of Turkey” in Ukrainian and find it a great addition to my personal library. I’ve tried to obtain a copy of his personal memoirs including information regarding hist first trip to the Middle East, but alas to no avail. 🙁

  224. @silviosilver
    @Pumblechook


    then I’d rather the wheel of life puts me next to Jose and Maria, not Abdulkader and Khadija.
     
    If you're talking about next door neighbors, there is absolutely fuck all guarantee that Jose and Maria are going to be better people. (Picture some squat, tatted up indios who blast ranchera music, speak hispano-retardo grade English and toss their trash on your lawn - you want that scum for neighbors?)

    If you're talking about the entire neighborhood going either spic or muzz, in my book you're screwed either way. And though middle class spic would be preferable to middle class muzz, the latter aren't necessarily a complete horror show.

    Replies: @AP, @Blinky Bill

    If you’re talking about next door neighbors, there is absolutely fuck all guarantee that Jose and Maria are going to be better people. (Picture some squat, tatted up indios who blast ranchera music, speak hispano-retardo grade English and toss their trash on your lawn – you want that scum for neighbors?)

    Those would only be his neighbors if he himself was a tattooed up, meth using white dude with a lot of missing teeth. In which case it’s hard to say who would be better or worse.

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • LOL: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @Matra
    @AP

    Those would only be his neighbors if he himself was a tattooed up, meth using white dude with a lot of missing teeth.

    Or they are retired normal non-wealthy Americans living on a fixed income and can't really move elsewhere when their neighbourhood is invaded. Or their formerly decent suburbs saw Central Americans, often groups of single men, move into one overcrowded house, then another, and another, making life miserable for normal families, who then see their property values decline giving them few decent options. Or they lost their formerly good jobs or small businesses due to COVID or some other reason, couldn't pay the mortgage and had to move to poor area where they are outnumbered by hostile aliens.

    There are many reasons why people end up having to live round those they don't get along with. Not all poor or downwardly mobile people are the trash you think they are. (I note your fellow Ukrainian-American Mr. Hack agrees with you. Maybe it is a Ukrainian thing, which is odd, given that many Europeans see Ukrainians as the poor white trash of Europe).

    Replies: @AP, @Mr. Hack

  225. @Blade
    @Daniel Chieh

    It doesn't matter. Turkey's position is not much different than China's. Unless we do everything outsiders want us to do, they will continue attacking Turkey for this or that reason anyway. You just don't get fazed.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @Daniel Chieh

    Yeah, that’s why China has a plummeting currency and moribund scientific contributions while randomly antagonizing its neighborhood for no reason.

    Wait, China is none of those things.

  226. @songbird
    There should be a separate world almanac for civilized countries, with such statistics as:
    -number of rocket launches
    -tons to orbit
    -sq. kilometres of land reclaimed
    -# of Africans deported

    Hard to find up to date info for China, but I'd estimate that they've at least reclaimed an area equivalent to the Kantō Plain, since WW2. If only the Dutch could build windmills that would deport undesirables.

    Replies: @mal

    I don’t know about the rest, but Wiki keeps track of numbers for launches.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_in_spaceflight

    For orbital launches this year, Chinese had 10 launches for 9 successful, Russians 7 for 7, Indians 1 for 1, and Americans 16 for 16, of which 11 was Musk.

    Say what you will about Musk, but he keeps those Falcons in the air.

    • Thanks: Blinky Bill, songbird
    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    @mal


    For orbital launches this year, Chinese had 10 launches for 9 successful, Russians 7 for 7, Indians 1 for 1, and Americans 16 for 16, of which 11 was Musk.
     
    A second launch occurred on 1 February 2021, at 08:15 UTC (16:15 Beijing Time) from Jiuquan Satellite Launch Center with 6 unidentified satellites but failed to reach orbit.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-Space_(Chinese_company)

    I wonder what role Russian and Chinese private space companies will play in the industry over the coming decades? Or are both destined to always be state dominated?

    Replies: @mal, @songbird

  227. Yahya K. says:
    @AP
    @AltanBakshi


    Were not the first Slavs with a written language Bulgars? Did not Greeks call them first by the name of the Slav
     
    IIRC at that time the Slavs that had come down had not yet become fully absorbed by the natives so there were still discrete unmixed Slavic population down there, rather than as now, a Balkan population of 20% Slavic descent.

    Basically the former Ottoman Empire is the homeland of LARPers. A bunch of Thracians or Albanians pretending to be Slavs and a bunch of Anatolians mixed with Arabs and Persians pretending to be Turks. Only Greeks, Albanians and Armenians are straightforward. Kurds also.

    Replies: @Yahya K., @Yellowface Anon

    Basically the former Ottoman Empire is the homeland of LARPers. A bunch of Thracians or Albanians pretending to be Slavs and a bunch of Anatolians mixed with Arabs and Persians pretending to be Turks. Only Greeks, Albanians and Armenians are straightforward. Kurds also.

    Turks in Turkey are mostly a mix of Greek, Armenian, and Georgian – not Arab or Persian.

    Sometimes the Turkish fascination with the biological comes out in strange ways, Turkish genealogy database fascinates, frightens Turks. Much of the discussion has to do with prejudice against Armenians and Jews. But the reality is that most Turks at some level do understand that they are descended from Greeks, Armenians, Georgians, etc.

    https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2018/02/24/are-turks-armenians-under-the-hood/

    They are mostly descended from the peoples of antiquity, except they have a minor East Asian component which came from the Turkic invaders of Central Asia.

    In plainer language, the people of modern-day Turkey mostly resemble the people who lived in Turkey before the battle of Manzikert and the migration of Turkic nomads into the interior of the peninsula in the 11th century A.D. Of course, there is some genetic element which shows that there was a migration of an East Asian people into modern day Anatolia, but this component in the minority one.**

    There is regional variation as well. Western Anatolian Turks have more European (from Greece and the Balkans) blood and less East Asian than their compatriots further into the heartland.

    Georgians have none of the Northern European sort of ancestry, but Armenians do, and Turks even more. One could posit that this is due to Slavic ancestry arriving with the Rumelian Turks who arrived in the 20th century, but just as likely is the possibility that Turks have a lot of ancestry from western Anatolia which was Greek, and Greeks have more of this than Armenians.

    Turks in Eastern Anatolia have more Armenian blood:

    Demographically we know that historically much of eastern Anatolia was dominated by Armenians. Many of the prominent Byzantine dynasties were of Hellenized Armenian lineages. I would predict that one will likely find that most of the Turks of eastern Anatolia would cluster with Armenians, just as those Turks from the west and coastal Anatolia might cluster more with Greeks, because it seems likely that the ethnogenesis of most Turks in Anatolia was a process whereby Greeks and Armenians assimilated to the identity of a small minority of eastern Turkish invaders.

    https://www.gnxp.com/WordPress/2010/02/19/armenian-genetics/

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
    • Thanks: AP
  228. @Bashibuzuk
    @Blade

    Look, I actually have a rather positive opinion about Turks. But Altan is right: you are mainly Mediterranean and Anatolian. There should be no shame about that, these people built Gobekli tepe and Çatalhöyük. The earliest civilization was born there and nearly half of your population still carries their genetic lineage. Your people is quite gifted because of that, not some Akhal Teke riding Kipchak whom were only good at imposing themselves upon the more civilized people and exploiting them.

    BTW if you go and read my comments, you will find that I wrote a couple of things about the Ashina Clan Tokharian roots and the genetics of early Huns and Avars.

    Feel free to educate yourself...

    Replies: @Morton's toes

    BTW if you go and read my comments, you will find that I wrote a couple of things about the Ashina Clan Tokharian roots and the genetics of early Huns and Avars.

    Have you read this book by any chance?

    If not you might be interested. Kingsley’s text is only 84 pp but he has 90 pp of fine print endnotes. His inferences are a little stretched but oh my. He has:

    Pythagoras’ mentor was an Avar;
    Genghis Khan performed a disinfecting action on a corrupt continent that was utterly stagnant before him and subsequently blossomed;
    The Tibetan Buddhists genocided the shamans and stole all their best ideas (all the best ideas of the Tibetan Budddhists started out as the best ideas of the shamans they destroyed).

    He has a saintly portrayal of Genghis Khan. GK conquered the most luxuriant cities and immediately retreated to his tent/camp because he was only at home out in the wild. He went here and there at the direction of some celestial messenger. &c. There is an anecdote about the European trip and some Euro soldiers who were completely spooked after they captured one of GK’s scouts and he was an English army guy who had been banished and GK had taken him right in.

    It is one of the more interesting alternative histories I have seen. A couple days after I read it I had to go back and read it over again half as fast.

    • Thanks: Bashibuzuk, Daniel Chieh
    • LOL: AltanBakshi
    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Morton's toes


    The Tibetan Buddhists genocided the shamans and stole all their best ideas (all the best ideas of the Tibetan Budddhists started out as the best ideas of the shamans they destroyed).
     
    While it's true that 3rd Dalai Lama and Altan Khaan ordered all human sacrificing shamans to be killed if they continue sacrificing people and burning women on funeral pyres, I still would not call such an act by name of genocide, it's justice and nothing else. Pre-Buddhist religions are still living faiths in Mongolic and Tibetan lands, and substantial share of their people are not Buddhists, but Tengrist Shamanists or followers of Bön religion.
    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-F_8er6aqZCg/T0XjNGTCGsI/AAAAAAAAAZo/v0yoEHjxzk8/s1600/IMGA0493.JPG

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGBo6FDDYd8

    Replies: @Morton's toes

  229. @Almost Missouri
    @Boomthorkell


    Africa with 800,000,000 Africans is better for itself than an Africa with 40,000,000
     
    Provided they don't outstrip Malthusian limits.

    Humanity will do best when it has seething trillions of people spread throughout the galaxy, forming a strong bedrock from which enlightened God-Beings can rise. We’d also have enough room then for everyone to have 6 acres and a mule, and time to think.
     
    Is there any reason to suppose humanity will be better at staying within Malthusian limits at the galactic scale than it was at the terrestrial scale?

    Also, I note that most human achievement seems to come not from isolated and idle pastoralists but from active and civilized urbanites. Nothing against pastoralists. That is my own preferred mode. I'm just reporting reality as I see it.

    Replies: @Boomthorkell

    Oh, sure. Hopefully that elite fraction can lend some guidance, but a Malthusian Africa is less likely to be walked over than Jungle-Bush Subsistence Africa (I’m not a fan of Africa. I’m just saying they would be literally harder to take over, much as a billion American Indians would be harder to take over than however many there actually were.)

    Oh, I don’t expect everyone to opt for settling in a brave new world with 6 acres and a mule. I expect most people to live and stay and develop mega cities, or the free fields of tomorrow to become the arcologies of next Wednesday.

    As far as Malthus is concerned, if humanity hits the galactic scale, we’re likely some level of a post-scarcity society, or even outright free-energy (no science fiction does justice to the possibilities of that). That, and even if resources are a concern, it will be a much longer timeline and much higher limit till said scarcity becomes an issue, on the galactic scale, when we can mine asteroids, let alone other worlds.

  230. @songbird
    @128

    After WW2, in addition to all the destroyed cities, over 6 million Japanese were repatriated into Japan. Japan should have tried to hold on to Manchukuo, rather that move South.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @AltanBakshi

    Japan should have tried to hold on to Manchukuo, rather that move South.

    They tried.

    Even if 80% of Imperial Japanese Army troops had remained in Manchuria, I don’t think it would of mattered to the Red Army. If the Wehrmacht failed, good luck to the dwarf devils.

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    @Blinky Bill


    https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DbtqsbMUQAIQEVV.jpg

    , @songbird
    @Blinky Bill

    The Russian military was impressive, but my idea is that Japan could have conciliated the US, while holding onto its circa 1932 territories, presenting itself as a bulwark against communism.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

  231. @Blinky Bill
    @songbird


    Japan should have tried to hold on to Manchukuo, rather that move South.
     
    They tried.

    https://i.redd.it/tk6x05zhql041.jpg


    Even if 80% of Imperial Japanese Army troops had remained in Manchuria, I don't think it would of mattered to the Red Army. If the Wehrmacht failed, good luck to the dwarf devils.


    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS3CWP043JrCtic9idD8LbYaHrksXpMsnRm6w&usqp.jpg

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @songbird

    [MORE]

  232. @silviosilver
    @Pumblechook


    then I’d rather the wheel of life puts me next to Jose and Maria, not Abdulkader and Khadija.
     
    If you're talking about next door neighbors, there is absolutely fuck all guarantee that Jose and Maria are going to be better people. (Picture some squat, tatted up indios who blast ranchera music, speak hispano-retardo grade English and toss their trash on your lawn - you want that scum for neighbors?)

    If you're talking about the entire neighborhood going either spic or muzz, in my book you're screwed either way. And though middle class spic would be preferable to middle class muzz, the latter aren't necessarily a complete horror show.

    Replies: @AP, @Blinky Bill

    • LOL: Bashibuzuk
    • Replies: @Another German Reader
    @Blinky Bill

    Game Over man! Game Over!

  233. @AP
    @silviosilver


    If you’re talking about next door neighbors, there is absolutely fuck all guarantee that Jose and Maria are going to be better people. (Picture some squat, tatted up indios who blast ranchera music, speak hispano-retardo grade English and toss their trash on your lawn – you want that scum for neighbors?)
     
    Those would only be his neighbors if he himself was a tattooed up, meth using white dude with a lot of missing teeth. In which case it's hard to say who would be better or worse.

    Replies: @Matra

    Those would only be his neighbors if he himself was a tattooed up, meth using white dude with a lot of missing teeth.

    Or they are retired normal non-wealthy Americans living on a fixed income and can’t really move elsewhere when their neighbourhood is invaded. Or their formerly decent suburbs saw Central Americans, often groups of single men, move into one overcrowded house, then another, and another, making life miserable for normal families, who then see their property values decline giving them few decent options. Or they lost their formerly good jobs or small businesses due to COVID or some other reason, couldn’t pay the mortgage and had to move to poor area where they are outnumbered by hostile aliens.

    There are many reasons why people end up having to live round those they don’t get along with. Not all poor or downwardly mobile people are the trash you think they are. (I note your fellow Ukrainian-American Mr. Hack agrees with you. Maybe it is a Ukrainian thing, which is odd, given that many Europeans see Ukrainians as the poor white trash of Europe).

    • Replies: @AP
    @Matra


    Those would only be his neighbors if he himself was a tattooed up, meth using white dude with a lot of missing teeth.

    Or they are retired normal non-wealthy Americans living on a fixed income and can’t really move elsewhere when their neighbourhood is invaded. Or their formerly decent suburbs saw Central Americans, often groups of single men, move into one overcrowded house, then another, and another, making life miserable for normal families, who then see their property values decline giving them few decent options. Or they lost their formerly good jobs or small businesses due to COVID or some other reason, couldn’t pay the mortgage and had to move to poor area where they are outnumbered by hostile aliens.
     
    I know a few such people and they have never had this problem. There are plenty of tidy trailer parks with old white retirees on fixed incomes. Do you know anyone who has?

    I do know places that have gone downhill due to meth/opiate problems among white people though. I suspect this is as much of a problem. For some reason Anglos and Scotch-Irish succumb to this stuff more than do Polish-American proles, who just drink.
    , @Mr. Hack
    @Matra


    Or their formerly decent suburbs saw Central Americans, often groups of single men, move into one overcrowded house, then another, and another, making life miserable for normal families, who then see their property values decline giving them few decent options.
     
    I've written about my neighborhood here in Phoenix AZ several times. It totally breaks the meme mold that you're trying to propagate. I moved into this neighborhood about 20 years ago, when the Mexican element was not more than 15%. Its grown whereas today its about 30%. Among the whites, there are some Italians, Ukrainians and the usual assortment of "Heinz 57" mixture. All of the houses are single story one family homes built all together just over 30 years ago. It's really a nice quiet neighborhood, all the yards kept up quite nicely. My new Cuban neighbor has spent the last year really doing a number on his house, including all new landscaping, and it really shines. Once in a while, one of the Latino families breaks up the quiet monotony in the neighborhood by throwing a party that may go on till midnight. If I'm lucky, I'll get invited and get a chance to meet some nice family oriented people, play with their kids, listen to some good salsa music and eat a plate full of great Mexican fare and have a beer or two. I'd say that all of the house values are in the same ballpark, valued around 300k in this real estate bubble that we're in. My home, that I bought (fully furnished) for 110k, is today worth, according to willow, 330k. NO GANGS HERE EITHER!

    The two neighboring neighborhoods that I can walk to to take advantage of their lovely parks are interesting too. One, where the houses aren't as nice or as big as those in mine is very quaint, and all of the front yards are kept up quite nicely. One Latino house even has a nice Roman Catholic shrine built in their yard including a statue of the Virgin Mary that I bow to when passing by on my way to work.

    The other neighborhood is even nicer than mine. Home values here probably average around 500k with a few probably selling close to 1 million (that are huge houses and include large yards). Just last year I paid a little over $1,000 in property taxes for the first time! What's there not to like, and I love my Mexican neighbors - they're a hard working bunch that show their gratitude for living the American dream and are proud to own their own homes.

    Replies: @Pumblechook

  234. @AltanBakshi
    @songbird


    Maybe, it has to do with Buddhism?
     
    Ise shrine is the most holiest place of Shintoism, the shrine of sun goddess Amaterasu herself, and it's demolished and rebuild once in every twenty years.

    https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/this-japanese-shrine-has-been-torn-down-and-rebuilt-every-20-years-for-the-past-millennium-575558/

    Another good reason, historically speaking, for shabby Japanese building, is that historically there's been lots of earthquakes and typhoons, why build something lasting in such situation?

    Funnily oldest, not rebuild, surviving buildings in Japan are all Buddhist temples or shrines, same is true with China.

    Replies: @Yellowface Anon, @Dmitry

    Those religious buildings were designed to be earthquake-proof.

  235. @AP
    @Pumblechook

    He is an Anglo supremacist who thinks America had gone downhill since it let in all those Italians, Poles, Irish, etc. If one hates the presence of Italians, naturally one would also lament an influx of Latinos (who are more like Italian peasants than they are like Anglo farmers). If you are a fan of Italy you would probably not mind Latinos too much. I live in a part of the country without a lot of them, but friends who moved to Texas are happy with the Mexicans in their state.

    I’ve noticed that educated Latinos (often Cubans and South Americans) mix well with Slavs. On average they are a bit more dramatic, a bit more sexualized, they prefer rum over vodka - but there is a certain closeness of spirit; Anglos and Germanics are more distant. The Slavic and the Mediterranean worlds are sympathetic cousins.

    There is a class barrier with less educated Latinos, but I imagine they are not too dissimilar to hardworking Slavic peasants from 100 years ago. I hear that in Chicago, Polish-American proles often marry Mexicans living nearby.

    That having been said, a mass influx is disruptive, I do not support open borders.

    Replies: @Pumblechook, @EldnahYm, @mal, @Matra

    He is an Anglo supremacist who thinks America had gone downhill since it let in all those Italians, Poles, Irish, etc

    Funny how Anglos (plus Germans & Scandinavians) who prefer their own nations and ways are never just ‘patriots’, just nasty ‘supremacists’.

    If you are a fan of Italy you would probably not mind Latinos too much

    I spent parts of the winters of 2018 and 2019 in Lombardy, Emilia-Romagna, & Veneto. Maybe next time I’ll try Guatemala or El Salvador, after all if you are a fan of Italy you probably won’t mind those places too much.

    • Replies: @Blinky Bill
    @Matra


    I spent parts of the winters of 2018 and 2019 in Lombardy, Emilia-Romagna, & Veneto. Maybe next time I’ll try Guatemala or El Salvador, after all if you are a fan of Italy you probably won’t mind those places too much.
     
    Perhaps he was comparing Nuevo León with Calabria or Sicily with Baja California, but point taken. 😉
    , @AP
    @Matra


    He is an Anglo supremacist who thinks America had gone downhill since it let in all those Italians, Poles, Irish, etc

    Funny how Anglos (plus Germans & Scandinavians) who prefer their own nations and ways are never just ‘patriots’, just nasty ‘supremacists’.
     
    He thinks that Italians are inferior trash, that is the difference. Have you even read his posts?

    I spent parts of the winters of 2018 and 2019 in Lombardy, Emilia-Romagna, & Veneto. Maybe next time I’ll try Guatemala or El Salvador, after all if you are a fan of Italy you probably won’t mind those places too much.
     
    A friend who regularly visited Italy spent time in Costa Rica this year and loved it. He has also enjoyed Peru very much.
  236. @mal
    @songbird

    I don’t know about the rest, but Wiki keeps track of numbers for launches.

    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_in_spaceflight

    For orbital launches this year, Chinese had 10 launches for 9 successful, Russians 7 for 7, Indians 1 for 1, and Americans 16 for 16, of which 11 was Musk.

    Say what you will about Musk, but he keeps those Falcons in the air.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill

    For orbital launches this year, Chinese had 10 launches for 9 successful, Russians 7 for 7, Indians 1 for 1, and Americans 16 for 16, of which 11 was Musk.

    A second launch occurred on 1 February 2021, at 08:15 UTC (16:15 Beijing Time) from Jiuquan Satellite Launch Center with 6 unidentified satellites but failed to reach orbit.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-Space_(Chinese_company)

    I wonder what role Russian and Chinese private space companies will play in the industry over the coming decades? Or are both destined to always be state dominated?

    • Replies: @mal
    @Blinky Bill

    Well it's all state dominated in the US too - all those "private sector" entrepreneurs feed off government contracts, mostly military, and play by their rules.

    Like poor Momentus that can't get a break because it's too Russian.

    https://spacenews.com/lockheed-martin-removes-momentus-from-nasa-technology-demonstration-mission/

    Or like that time when Elon Musk charged Pentagon $300 million for two launches because "it needed infrastructure" lol. It is no different from that Vostochny subcontractor that Russians caught in crystal studded Mercedes.

    What is called 'corruption' in Russia and China is 'private sector initiative' in the US. But its not all bad. Government and large corporations are increasingly bureaucratic and focus more on woke stuff, so it takes them forever to deliver results. If some guys want to skim off government contracts and become rich, but deliver results faster, it is well worth it.

    , @songbird
    @Blinky Bill

    I think a big part of the drive for new investment in private space companies came from servicing the International Space Station, a project from which China was excluded.

    This year, China is scheduled to launch the Chinese large modular space station. It is different from their previous space labs which were only meant to be temporary. A modular design fundamentally encourages a longer lifespan, with upgrades and additions. It encourages scheduled servicing and resupply. It is only meant to be about 1/5 the mass of the ISS or about equal to the size of Mir. But once you start a modular design, it is relatively easy to add on to it, especially if expanding modules are used.

    Axiom Space actually has a plan to make an annex to the ISS with private modules, and then detach, when the ISS is retired and deorbited, and become their own commercial space station. I'm not sure if it is practical - I think the commercial potentiality of space stations has generally been overestimated, but I do believe that the new Chinese space station will encourage more state investment in private space companies in China.

  237. @AP
    @AltanBakshi


    Were not the first Slavs with a written language Bulgars? Did not Greeks call them first by the name of the Slav
     
    IIRC at that time the Slavs that had come down had not yet become fully absorbed by the natives so there were still discrete unmixed Slavic population down there, rather than as now, a Balkan population of 20% Slavic descent.

    Basically the former Ottoman Empire is the homeland of LARPers. A bunch of Thracians or Albanians pretending to be Slavs and a bunch of Anatolians mixed with Arabs and Persians pretending to be Turks. Only Greeks, Albanians and Armenians are straightforward. Kurds also.

    Replies: @Yahya K., @Yellowface Anon

    Modern Greek are also quite mixed after the long post-Antiquity years. Lots of Slavic and Albanian blood, not the mention Illyrian, Thracian and Anatolian ones, have blended into the old Hellenic stock.

    Near East (Greece included) has always been a melting pot of sorts.

    • Agree: Bashibuzuk
  238. @Matra
    @AP

    He is an Anglo supremacist who thinks America had gone downhill since it let in all those Italians, Poles, Irish, etc

    Funny how Anglos (plus Germans & Scandinavians) who prefer their own nations and ways are never just 'patriots', just nasty 'supremacists'.

    If you are a fan of Italy you would probably not mind Latinos too much

    I spent parts of the winters of 2018 and 2019 in Lombardy, Emilia-Romagna, & Veneto. Maybe next time I'll try Guatemala or El Salvador, after all if you are a fan of Italy you probably won't mind those places too much.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @AP

    I spent parts of the winters of 2018 and 2019 in Lombardy, Emilia-Romagna, & Veneto. Maybe next time I’ll try Guatemala or El Salvador, after all if you are a fan of Italy you probably won’t mind those places too much.

    Perhaps he was comparing Nuevo León with Calabria or Sicily with Baja California, but point taken. 😉

  239. @Blinky Bill
    @songbird


    Japan should have tried to hold on to Manchukuo, rather that move South.
     
    They tried.

    https://i.redd.it/tk6x05zhql041.jpg


    Even if 80% of Imperial Japanese Army troops had remained in Manchuria, I don't think it would of mattered to the Red Army. If the Wehrmacht failed, good luck to the dwarf devils.


    https://encrypted-tbn0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS3CWP043JrCtic9idD8LbYaHrksXpMsnRm6w&usqp.jpg

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @songbird

    The Russian military was impressive, but my idea is that Japan could have conciliated the US, while holding onto its circa 1932 territories, presenting itself as a bulwark against communism.

    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @songbird

    The Americans and probably even the Chinese could have lived with that, but the Americans are never good at negotiating such things. They never explicitly accepted “spheres of influence” or a right to colonies while they themselves considered the whole of the Americas (and later also Europe and East Asia) their exclusive sphere of influence and also conquered colonies for themselves. But an at least as big (if not bigger) problem was that Japan at the time was incapable of reigning in its officers and thus was agreement incapable anyway.

    Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

  240. @songbird
    @Blinky Bill

    The Russian military was impressive, but my idea is that Japan could have conciliated the US, while holding onto its circa 1932 territories, presenting itself as a bulwark against communism.

    Replies: @reiner Tor

    The Americans and probably even the Chinese could have lived with that, but the Americans are never good at negotiating such things. They never explicitly accepted “spheres of influence” or a right to colonies while they themselves considered the whole of the Americas (and later also Europe and East Asia) their exclusive sphere of influence and also conquered colonies for themselves. But an at least as big (if not bigger) problem was that Japan at the time was incapable of reigning in its officers and thus was agreement incapable anyway.

    • Agree: songbird
    • Replies: @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @reiner Tor

    Sorry, no. The Soviets intervened to prevent exactly this. Chiang was initially focused on eradicating Commies in the Encirclement Campaigns

    "Japanese are a disease of the skin, Communism is a disease of the heart“.

    Then Zhang Xueliang kidnapped Chiang at the Xi’an Incident to force him to form a United Front. We know now that the Soviets had a role in this,

    Chiang Kai-shek’s “secret deal” at Xian and the start of the Sino-Japanese War
    https://www.nature.com/articles/palcomms20143

    The Soviet Union and the Xi'an Incident
    https://www.jstor.org/stable/2949871?seq=1

  241. @songbird
    @128

    After WW2, in addition to all the destroyed cities, over 6 million Japanese were repatriated into Japan. Japan should have tried to hold on to Manchukuo, rather that move South.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @AltanBakshi

    Japan should have tried to hold on to Manchukuo, rather that move South.

    Do you mean that Japanese should have not have attacked Southern British, Dutch and American hold territories in 1941, or not attacked China in 1937?

    my idea is that Japan could have conciliated the US, while holding onto its circa 1932 territories, presenting itself as a bulwark against communism.

    German leadership entertained such dreams in the early 1945, but Western Allies explicitly denied all chances of separate peace in the West. Also USA was very Anti-Japanese and moderately Pro-Chinese. Japan was seen as a strategic threat on the Western pacific.

    • Agree: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @reiner Tor
    @AltanBakshi


    Do you mean that Japanese should have not have attacked Southern British, Dutch and American hold territories in 1941, or not attacked China in 1937?
     
    They should have attacked neither.

    German leadership
     
    They should not have started the war either. Germany was the dominant power in Central Europe, and over time it could have built nukes (just like Japan and eventually nationalist China), so that now we’d have a truly multipolar world.

    Maybe then we’d have had the Second World War in the 1970s and it would have been so much more destructive, so maybe it’s good that it didn’t happen. I’m just trying to think about scenarios where globohomo didn’t become so dominant.

    Replies: @Wency

    , @songbird
    @AltanBakshi


    Do you mean that Japanese should have not have attacked Southern British, Dutch and American hold territories in 1941, or not attacked China in 1937?
     
    Both, really. I think the negative perceptions of Japan mostly came from two ideas: 1.) that they were a destabilizing influence on China, 2.) that there was no effective limit on their territorial ambitions.

    The second may not have quite been true, but the easy way to show it would have been to not expand past their 1932 borders. Probably not a good idea to attack European colonies and consolidate strategic resources, (I think postwar Japan shows that they did not need these resources, if not on a war footing) but definitely, not a good idea to try to give the US a bloody nose, and believe it would sue for peace.

    And something like the "Nanjing Massacre" was a PR disaster.

    Perhaps, the populace of Japan was too fired up with war sentiment to make peace easy. Maybe, the wrong party won and choosing peace was impossible in those circumstances.
    , @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms
    @AltanBakshi


    attacked China in 1937?

     

    This is somewhat mischaracterization. Japan was seeking to turn North China into another Manchuria. Chiang knew war was going to break out anyways, rather than getting bled out, he had a better chance by seizing the strategic initiative, by picking the place of battlefield at Shanghai, in accordance to German advice.

    I once again refer to this map.
    https://imgur.com/TMoKFUB

    You should know this of all people, both Yongle and Manchus* attacked Lower Yangtze via the Beijing-Shanghai axis, which is perfect flat calvary country with no natural barriers.

    Japs could have sent 2 pincers at Beijing-Shanghai and Beijing-Wuhan axis, Chiang could have been trapped in the middle, or swept out to sea.

    But by seizing initiative, Chiang „traded space for time“, by drawing Japs to Shanghai-Wuhan axis, you can see that’s much more hilly.

    This way he delayed the Battle of Wuhan by about 6 months, so he can also have time to retreat further to Chongqing which was the originally designed redoubt.

    *The Mongols attacked via 3 pincers, 1. Shanxi-Sichuan, 2. Central Plains-Hubei 3. Beijing-Shanghai. Japs tried to do 1, but Commies had a good guerrilla ops set up in Shanxi.

    should have not have attacked Southern British, Dutch and American hold territories in 1941

     

    US was their top materiel supplier until 1940. When the embargoes started, Japs can either barf up all their conquests, or seize British Malaya.

    They also falsely assumed that US would go to war to defend British colonies.

    Also USA was very Anti-Japanese and moderately Pro-Chinese.

     

    If Japs pulled out of China Proper, US/UK would have simply sailed up the Yangtze and regained old imperial/extraterritorial privileges.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  242. @AltanBakshi
    @songbird


    Japan should have tried to hold on to Manchukuo, rather that move South.
     
    Do you mean that Japanese should have not have attacked Southern British, Dutch and American hold territories in 1941, or not attacked China in 1937?

    my idea is that Japan could have conciliated the US, while holding onto its circa 1932 territories, presenting itself as a bulwark against communism.
     
    German leadership entertained such dreams in the early 1945, but Western Allies explicitly denied all chances of separate peace in the West. Also USA was very Anti-Japanese and moderately Pro-Chinese. Japan was seen as a strategic threat on the Western pacific.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @songbird, @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    Do you mean that Japanese should have not have attacked Southern British, Dutch and American hold territories in 1941, or not attacked China in 1937?

    They should have attacked neither.

    German leadership

    They should not have started the war either. Germany was the dominant power in Central Europe, and over time it could have built nukes (just like Japan and eventually nationalist China), so that now we’d have a truly multipolar world.

    Maybe then we’d have had the Second World War in the 1970s and it would have been so much more destructive, so maybe it’s good that it didn’t happen. I’m just trying to think about scenarios where globohomo didn’t become so dominant.

    • Replies: @Wency
    @reiner Tor

    I have to imagine that a Hitler who stopped after taking Austria and the Sudetenland would be more of a Franco-like figure, and viewed perhaps as someone whose bark was worse than his bite. Germany softens and de-Nazifies within a few decades anyway, and once it breaks free of Nazism it overcorrects even harder to the left. But it does keep those territories, and East Prussia, into the present day.

    A Germany that somehow mostly fulfilled Hitler's vision (which, to be sure, I view as mostly an insane vision) and won WW2 would probably be a different animal. For a variety of reasons, I think Nazism would have persisted longer if it succeeded in seizing its lebensraum.

    Replies: @Beckow, @AltanBakshi, @reiner Tor

  243. @Shango
    @DNS

    I only have a moderate understanding of the teaching and history of islam , but how can some military leader of Pakistan islamize the country when it majority of the country is muslim.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @DNS, @DNS, @DNS

    Pakistan was intended as a Muslim state, one where the majority of the inhabitants are Muslims, and not an Islamic state where the laws reflect Sharia.

    When Pakistan came into being in August 1947, it’s official name was the “Dominion of Pakistan” and it was only in 1956 that it became the “Islamic Republic of Pakistan”, but even then there were no laws brought about for such a name change to he justified, it was only in the late 1970s that this process began under General Zia, who himself was a pious Muslim and thought his actions would improve Pakistan’s national cohesion and prominence in the Islamic world.

  244. @Shango
    @DNS

    I only have a moderate understanding of the teaching and history of islam , but how can some military leader of Pakistan islamize the country when it majority of the country is muslim.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @DNS, @DNS, @DNS

    Pakistan was intended as a Muslim state, one where the majority of the inhabitants are Muslims, and not an Islamic state where the laws reflect Sharia.

    When Pakistan came into being in August 1947, it’s official name was the “Dominion of Pakistan” and it was only in 1956 that it became the “Islamic Republic of Pakistan”, but even then there were no laws brought about for such a name change to he justified, it was only in the late 1970s that this process began under General Zia, who himself was a pious Muslim and thought his actions would improve Pakistan’s national cohesion and prominence in the Islamic world.

  245. @Shango
    @DNS

    I only have a moderate understanding of the teaching and history of islam , but how can some military leader of Pakistan islamize the country when it majority of the country is muslim.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @DNS, @DNS, @DNS

    Pakistan was intended as a Muslim state, one where the majority of the inhabitants are Muslims, and not an Islamic state where the laws reflect Sharia.

    When Pakistan came into being in August 1947, it’s official name was the “Dominion of Pakistan” and it was only in 1956 that it became the “Islamic Republic of Pakistan”, but even then there were no laws brought about for such a name change to he justified, it was only in the late 1970s that this process began under General Zia, who himself was a pious Muslim and thought his actions would improve Pakistan’s national cohesion and prominence in the Islamic world.

  246. @EldnahYm
    @AP


    He is an Anglo supremacist who thinks America had gone downhill since it let in all those Italians, Poles, Irish, etc. If one hates the presence of Italians, naturally one would also lament an influx of Latinos (who are more like Italian peasants than they are like Anglo farmers). If you are a fan of Italy you would probably not mind Latinos too much. I live in a part of the country without a lot of them, but friends who moved to Texas are happy with the Mexicans in their state.
     
    Fair enough description, although I don't really value English people over Scottish or Dutch for example. I wouldn't mind the Irish if they weren't corrupt anti-English papists. Some Ulster Scots mixed with local Irish people, and I have so-called Scots-Irish background so it is quite possible I have Irish ancestry. Poles are ok personally, the kindest person I have ever known in my life was a Catholic American of Polish ancestry, but I think the entrance of large number of them introduced an undesirable foreign element. On the other hand, mixes of British with Poles tends to produce entertaining results. See Mike Ditka for an example. Germanic Swiss people were the best immigrants of the Ellis Island era.

    I'm more of a cultural supremacist for Protestant British Isles culture as it evolved in the Americas and a pseudo-Nordicist. So Poles are much higher in my totem pole than Italians.

    There are differences between Italians and Hispanics. In particular, sex crimes. Italians may have murdered each other a lot in the past, and been involved in all sorts of corruption and vice, but they're not commonly rapists, child molesters, or gropers. Hispanics are. This is always ignored by people who talk about how great Hispanics are. Sex crimes against strangers in the United States is mostly a crime committed by Blacks and Hispanics.

    California Hispanics have tended to be more troublesome than the ones in Texas. Puerto Ricans in New York have historically been criminally inclined and involved in gangs. Florida is a mixed picture compared to Texas or California.


    I’ve noticed that educated Latinos (often Cubans and South Americans) mix well with Slavs. On average they are a bit more dramatic, a bit more sexualized, they prefer rum over vodka – but there is a certain closeness of spirit; Anglos and Germanics are more distant. The Slavic and the Mediterranean worlds are sympathetic cousins.
     
    There are more important things in life than a shared affinity for sour cream.

    Replies: @AP, @AltanBakshi

    If I would be an Anglo, I would think that USA has gone downhill since 1861. Personally I just want that the current USAtan, with it’s missionary liberal and universalistic ideas will fall. I don’t much care if it will happen by your country changing into Brazil or into Anglo nationalist state, though isolationist WASP regime in America would probably be better for whole humanity.

    I’ve never given much value to Latin America. What else that god forsaken place has given us philosophically than just new strains of socialism like the heretic salvation theology? Culturally Latin America is a dead end, and they don’t even have same excuses or biological limitations as sub-saharans have. I know that many here on this site disparage various Muslim nations, I tooI feel disdain towards them, but no one can’t deny that they have given much to humanity in regards of architecture, poetry and aesthetics, though not really much in matters of spirituality(or if one wants to claim that endless nitpicking about trivial matters is spirituality then what ever), but what have Latin Americans achieved, even though they have a large and fertile continent, where they have resided for five centuries Look what Americans did just in two centuries! Or what Russians did in inhospitable Siberia, Central Asia and Urals, even Arabs developed interesting and highly distinct culture in Maghreb and Sahel.

    Also the backwardness of Latin America is not just because of them being mixed or something, one of my close relatives lived for couple years in Uruguay, which is the most European/White country of South America, and he told me that people there were always late, had no proper concept of time, the place where worked, was often closed, because there were constant labour strikes. From his words I understood that Uruguay was a shitty country of lazy people, and that same relative had lived before, because of his work, in Ukraine and Russia, and he has never complained about those countries in such way. Slav is an Empire builder, as the histories of Bulgaria, Russia and Poland show us, but Latin American is nothing else than a colonial peon.

    • Thanks: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @AltanBakshi


    though not really much in matters of spirituality
     

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/f8/Hallaj.jpg

    http://www.amaana.org/ikhwan/IkhwanSafa1287.jpg

    https://s3.us-east-1.amazonaws.com/media.archnet.org/system/media_contents/contents/91086/original/IAA103981.jpg

    https://simerg.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/icdubai02.jpg

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    , @AP
    @AltanBakshi


    I’ve never given much value to Latin America. What else that god forsaken place has given us philosophically than just new strains of socialism like the heretic salvation theology?
     
    Nice literature and music count for something. Liberation theology is no worse than the original Bolshevism.

    Culturally Latin America is a dead end
     
    Do you think the same of Spain? What has it done culturally in the last 300 years? Latin America is Spain's child.

    I tooI feel disdain towards them, but no one can’t deny that they have given much to humanity in regards of architecture, poetry and aesthetics,
     
    You think the Muslim world is better than Latin America? LOL.

    Mexico:

    https://cdn.havecamerawilltravel.com/places/files/2016/10/mexico-city-sacristy-in-mexico-city-metropolitan-cathedral-74-copyright-havecamerawilltravel-com.jpg

    https://cdn.britannica.com/44/145944-050-BE46FA53/Metropolitan-Cathedral-Mexico-City.jpg

    https://media.tacdn.com/media/attractions-splice-spp-674x446/07/98/25/11.jpg

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    , @silviosilver
    @AltanBakshi


    but what have Latin Americans achieved, even though they have a large and fertile continent, where they have resided for five centuries Look what Americans did just in two centuries! Or what Russians did in inhospitable Siberia, Central Asia and Urals,

    Russians are rightly esteemed for their achievements in science, arts, technology and sports; but I have no idea what "what Russians did in inhospitable Siberia...." refers to. Is it just the mere fact that they managed to set up shop there? If so, how is this notably more impressive than Latin American cities in the Andes and the Amazon (neither of which are bywords for hospitable environments)?

    even Arabs developed interesting and highly distinct culture in Maghreb and Sahel.
     
    You are really reaching now. How "interesting" they are is highly debatable, to say the least, and their simply being "highly distinct" is no reason for anyone to be impressed by them. (Globohomo culture is highly distinct too, when compared to all previously known human cultures, but I somehow doubt this fact raises your opinion of it.)
     

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    , @silviosilver
    @AltanBakshi


    Slav is an Empire builder, as the histories of Bulgaria, Russia and Poland show us, but Latin American is nothing else than a colonial peon.
     
    You are too easily impressed imperial authority, treating it as some summum bonum of human existence, regardless of the goods it provides (or bads it prevents). In other (imo more sensible) value systems, imperial authority isn't even a good, let alone the highest one.

    Outside of 'high culture,' Latin America compares quite favorably to the Arab world, the Hindoo world, and to southeast Asia. Consider two examples, sport and music. Latin Americans leave Arabs, Hindoos and Asians in the dust when it comes to sporting success (broadly, not just soccer). Sporting success rests on much more than raw talent and spontaneous individual effort; its consistent production requires certain cultural values and social technologies, and Latin America has performed well in this area.

    If global tastes are anything to go by, popular music is another field in which Latin America has excelled. Large numbers of people across the world, particularly in the west, listen to Latin American music despite not understanding the words. Arab music has its non-Arab fans, and I'm sure that's also true of Hindoo and Asian music, but I suspect it'll be a very long time before any of it is played in a popular nightclub.

    Replies: @Znzn, @Znzn, @Znzn, @Agathoklis, @Yahya K.

    , @silviosilver
    @AltanBakshi


    hey have given much to humanity in regards of architecture, poetry and aesthetics
     
    Islamic art ranks as an impressive achievement and obviously outclasses anything produced by rebarbative globohomo "artists", but how long can you remain fascinated by what is mostly geometric patterns? Personally, I get bored within minutes. In contrast, I have spent hours (cumulatively, not in one sitting) viewing the middlebrow (at best) artwork produced by a Latino like Boris Vallejo.

    I really can't comment on the poetry, since I don't know anything about it, nor am I even much of a poetry lover. I enjoy reading a poetic line or two, but, philistine that I am, poems as a whole just bore me. The good thing is, you lose nothing by simply reading a few favorite lines in isolation from the rest of the poem. Even though both music and movies have some segments that are better than the rest, you can't really listen to or watch just those alone - or if you do, the effect won't be as good as listening to or watching the whole thing. (Not true of classical music, where you actually gain from skipping boring movements.) So my only yardstick for judging the quality of Islamic poetry is how seldom I've ever heard anybody quote selected portions of it - eg in a post, an article, at the beginning of a book chapter.
    , @Mikel
    @AltanBakshi


    If I would be an Anglo, I would think that USA has gone downhill since 1861.
     
    Well, the one thing that the US didn't do after mid-19th C is go downhill.

    I don't blame Eldnah for thinking that the US would have become even more prosperous if it had only accepted Anglo-Germanic immigrants but I don't know how possible that was at a time when it sought large amounts of settlers for its frontier lands and workers for its growing economy.

    And perhaps it would have also become more liberal, like Northwest Europe. The current woke movement looks full of Puritan and Anglo-Protestant streaks to me.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi, @dfordoom, @EldnahYm

    , @EldnahYm
    @AltanBakshi


    If I would be an Anglo, I would think that USA has gone downhill since 1861. Personally I just want that the current USAtan, with it’s missionary liberal and universalistic ideas will fall. I don’t much care if it will happen by your country changing into Brazil or into Anglo nationalist state, though isolationist WASP regime in America would probably be better for whole humanity.
     
    Until the rest of the world stops investing in the U.S., any crisis in the U.S. is likely to have more catastrophic effects outside the U.S. Due to its unprecedented factor endowments and relative isolation, the U.S. can afford more destructive behavior than other countries. Just look to Europe for example. The last major world financial crisis begun in the United States but was most catastrophic in southern Europe. American actions in the Middle East have had little impact on Americans but have been a disaster for countries in the Middle East and have been a disaster in Europe via the rapefugee problem.

    I see the chances of an isolationist WASP regime as approaching 0%.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  247. @Morton's toes
    @Bashibuzuk


    BTW if you go and read my comments, you will find that I wrote a couple of things about the Ashina Clan Tokharian roots and the genetics of early Huns and Avars.
     
    Have you read this book by any chance?

    https://www.amazon.com/Story-Waiting-Pierce-You-Mongolia/dp/1890350214

    If not you might be interested. Kingsley's text is only 84 pp but he has 90 pp of fine print endnotes. His inferences are a little stretched but oh my. He has:

    Pythagoras' mentor was an Avar;
    Genghis Khan performed a disinfecting action on a corrupt continent that was utterly stagnant before him and subsequently blossomed;
    The Tibetan Buddhists genocided the shamans and stole all their best ideas (all the best ideas of the Tibetan Budddhists started out as the best ideas of the shamans they destroyed).

    He has a saintly portrayal of Genghis Khan. GK conquered the most luxuriant cities and immediately retreated to his tent/camp because he was only at home out in the wild. He went here and there at the direction of some celestial messenger. &c. There is an anecdote about the European trip and some Euro soldiers who were completely spooked after they captured one of GK's scouts and he was an English army guy who had been banished and GK had taken him right in.

    It is one of the more interesting alternative histories I have seen. A couple days after I read it I had to go back and read it over again half as fast.

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    The Tibetan Buddhists genocided the shamans and stole all their best ideas (all the best ideas of the Tibetan Budddhists started out as the best ideas of the shamans they destroyed).

    While it’s true that 3rd Dalai Lama and Altan Khaan ordered all human sacrificing shamans to be killed if they continue sacrificing people and burning women on funeral pyres, I still would not call such an act by name of genocide, it’s justice and nothing else. Pre-Buddhist religions are still living faiths in Mongolic and Tibetan lands, and substantial share of their people are not Buddhists, but Tengrist Shamanists or followers of Bön religion.

    • Replies: @Morton's toes
    @AltanBakshi

    That is great video!

    Have you ever seen this stuff for real?

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

  248. @AltanBakshi
    @EldnahYm

    If I would be an Anglo, I would think that USA has gone downhill since 1861. Personally I just want that the current USAtan, with it's missionary liberal and universalistic ideas will fall. I don't much care if it will happen by your country changing into Brazil or into Anglo nationalist state, though isolationist WASP regime in America would probably be better for whole humanity.

    I've never given much value to Latin America. What else that god forsaken place has given us philosophically than just new strains of socialism like the heretic salvation theology? Culturally Latin America is a dead end, and they don't even have same excuses or biological limitations as sub-saharans have. I know that many here on this site disparage various Muslim nations, I tooI feel disdain towards them, but no one can't deny that they have given much to humanity in regards of architecture, poetry and aesthetics, though not really much in matters of spirituality(or if one wants to claim that endless nitpicking about trivial matters is spirituality then what ever), but what have Latin Americans achieved, even though they have a large and fertile continent, where they have resided for five centuries Look what Americans did just in two centuries! Or what Russians did in inhospitable Siberia, Central Asia and Urals, even Arabs developed interesting and highly distinct culture in Maghreb and Sahel.

    Also the backwardness of Latin America is not just because of them being mixed or something, one of my close relatives lived for couple years in Uruguay, which is the most European/White country of South America, and he told me that people there were always late, had no proper concept of time, the place where worked, was often closed, because there were constant labour strikes. From his words I understood that Uruguay was a shitty country of lazy people, and that same relative had lived before, because of his work, in Ukraine and Russia, and he has never complained about those countries in such way. Slav is an Empire builder, as the histories of Bulgaria, Russia and Poland show us, but Latin American is nothing else than a colonial peon.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @AP, @silviosilver, @silviosilver, @silviosilver, @Mikel, @EldnahYm

    though not really much in matters of spirituality

    [MORE]

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Bashibuzuk

    Is Sufism anything else than Neo-Platonism in the garb of Islam? Were there no holy men before Islam? What Islam has given to humanity in spiritual matters, that did not exist before Islam? Stuff like Imamate, Jihad and Caliphate serve just Islam, not mankind.

    You very well know, that Christian and Zoroastrian Middle East would not be a worse place to live or practice spirituality.



    "but no one can deny that they have given much to humanity in regards of architecture, poetry and aesthetics, though not really much in matters of spirituality"
     
    Though religion like Confucianism has not given globally as much to humanity as Christianity or Buddhism, it has immensely contributed on such things as societal stability, honesty, civil organisation, education etc, etc, in Asia, and made a society a better place both for Confucianists and non-Confucianists.

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/c8/LifeAndWorksOfConfucius1687.jpg/1200px-LifeAndWorksOfConfucius1687.jpg

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  249. @Matra
    @AP

    He is an Anglo supremacist who thinks America had gone downhill since it let in all those Italians, Poles, Irish, etc

    Funny how Anglos (plus Germans & Scandinavians) who prefer their own nations and ways are never just 'patriots', just nasty 'supremacists'.

    If you are a fan of Italy you would probably not mind Latinos too much

    I spent parts of the winters of 2018 and 2019 in Lombardy, Emilia-Romagna, & Veneto. Maybe next time I'll try Guatemala or El Salvador, after all if you are a fan of Italy you probably won't mind those places too much.

    Replies: @Blinky Bill, @AP

    He is an Anglo supremacist who thinks America had gone downhill since it let in all those Italians, Poles, Irish, etc

    Funny how Anglos (plus Germans & Scandinavians) who prefer their own nations and ways are never just ‘patriots’, just nasty ‘supremacists’.

    He thinks that Italians are inferior trash, that is the difference. Have you even read his posts?

    I spent parts of the winters of 2018 and 2019 in Lombardy, Emilia-Romagna, & Veneto. Maybe next time I’ll try Guatemala or El Salvador, after all if you are a fan of Italy you probably won’t mind those places too much.

    A friend who regularly visited Italy spent time in Costa Rica this year and loved it. He has also enjoyed Peru very much.

  250. @Matra
    @AP

    Those would only be his neighbors if he himself was a tattooed up, meth using white dude with a lot of missing teeth.

    Or they are retired normal non-wealthy Americans living on a fixed income and can't really move elsewhere when their neighbourhood is invaded. Or their formerly decent suburbs saw Central Americans, often groups of single men, move into one overcrowded house, then another, and another, making life miserable for normal families, who then see their property values decline giving them few decent options. Or they lost their formerly good jobs or small businesses due to COVID or some other reason, couldn't pay the mortgage and had to move to poor area where they are outnumbered by hostile aliens.

    There are many reasons why people end up having to live round those they don't get along with. Not all poor or downwardly mobile people are the trash you think they are. (I note your fellow Ukrainian-American Mr. Hack agrees with you. Maybe it is a Ukrainian thing, which is odd, given that many Europeans see Ukrainians as the poor white trash of Europe).

    Replies: @AP, @Mr. Hack

    Those would only be his neighbors if he himself was a tattooed up, meth using white dude with a lot of missing teeth.

    Or they are retired normal non-wealthy Americans living on a fixed income and can’t really move elsewhere when their neighbourhood is invaded. Or their formerly decent suburbs saw Central Americans, often groups of single men, move into one overcrowded house, then another, and another, making life miserable for normal families, who then see their property values decline giving them few decent options. Or they lost their formerly good jobs or small businesses due to COVID or some other reason, couldn’t pay the mortgage and had to move to poor area where they are outnumbered by hostile aliens.

    I know a few such people and they have never had this problem. There are plenty of tidy trailer parks with old white retirees on fixed incomes. Do you know anyone who has?

    I do know places that have gone downhill due to meth/opiate problems among white people though. I suspect this is as much of a problem. For some reason Anglos and Scotch-Irish succumb to this stuff more than do Polish-American proles, who just drink.

  251. @AltanBakshi
    @EldnahYm

    If I would be an Anglo, I would think that USA has gone downhill since 1861. Personally I just want that the current USAtan, with it's missionary liberal and universalistic ideas will fall. I don't much care if it will happen by your country changing into Brazil or into Anglo nationalist state, though isolationist WASP regime in America would probably be better for whole humanity.

    I've never given much value to Latin America. What else that god forsaken place has given us philosophically than just new strains of socialism like the heretic salvation theology? Culturally Latin America is a dead end, and they don't even have same excuses or biological limitations as sub-saharans have. I know that many here on this site disparage various Muslim nations, I tooI feel disdain towards them, but no one can't deny that they have given much to humanity in regards of architecture, poetry and aesthetics, though not really much in matters of spirituality(or if one wants to claim that endless nitpicking about trivial matters is spirituality then what ever), but what have Latin Americans achieved, even though they have a large and fertile continent, where they have resided for five centuries Look what Americans did just in two centuries! Or what Russians did in inhospitable Siberia, Central Asia and Urals, even Arabs developed interesting and highly distinct culture in Maghreb and Sahel.

    Also the backwardness of Latin America is not just because of them being mixed or something, one of my close relatives lived for couple years in Uruguay, which is the most European/White country of South America, and he told me that people there were always late, had no proper concept of time, the place where worked, was often closed, because there were constant labour strikes. From his words I understood that Uruguay was a shitty country of lazy people, and that same relative had lived before, because of his work, in Ukraine and Russia, and he has never complained about those countries in such way. Slav is an Empire builder, as the histories of Bulgaria, Russia and Poland show us, but Latin American is nothing else than a colonial peon.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @AP, @silviosilver, @silviosilver, @silviosilver, @Mikel, @EldnahYm

    I’ve never given much value to Latin America. What else that god forsaken place has given us philosophically than just new strains of socialism like the heretic salvation theology?

    Nice literature and music count for something. Liberation theology is no worse than the original Bolshevism.

    Culturally Latin America is a dead end

    Do you think the same of Spain? What has it done culturally in the last 300 years? Latin America is Spain’s child.

    I tooI feel disdain towards them, but no one can’t deny that they have given much to humanity in regards of architecture, poetry and aesthetics,

    You think the Muslim world is better than Latin America? LOL.

    Mexico:

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @AP


    Do you think the same of Spain? What has it done culturally in the last 300 years? Latin America is Spain’s child.
     
    Oh Spain has given us so much during the last 300 years, extremely much, in matters of art, aesthetics and literature, among other various other things. How anyone can forget such masters like Goya, Dali or Picasso, just to mention few most famous. Spanish or Catalonian Modernism is world famous, so are Neo-Moor or Neo-Morisco and Bombaline style of Portugal. I don't know much about Spanish literature, but Garcia Lorca comes into mind.

    Everything you show about Mexico is just Spanish or Peninsular architecture, it's like you would show Spanish churches in Philippines and say, "do you see the achievements of Pinays!" Though I agree that Mexico has been more successful than other Latino countries, in creating of distinct and independent culture, but you should have shown some shitty artworks by Kahlo, or better artworks by his fat lover, which are quite nice examples of socialist art.

    One thing that really hurts my aesthetical sensibilities, is their carnivals, they dress like a silly hybrid of tropical parrot and whore. Ugh, such a bad taste. Oh, and if you people think that our western intellectuals love socialism, then look there, it's unbelievable how in love they are with the socialism.

    Replies: @AP, @Mr. Hack

  252. @AltanBakshi
    @EldnahYm

    If I would be an Anglo, I would think that USA has gone downhill since 1861. Personally I just want that the current USAtan, with it's missionary liberal and universalistic ideas will fall. I don't much care if it will happen by your country changing into Brazil or into Anglo nationalist state, though isolationist WASP regime in America would probably be better for whole humanity.

    I've never given much value to Latin America. What else that god forsaken place has given us philosophically than just new strains of socialism like the heretic salvation theology? Culturally Latin America is a dead end, and they don't even have same excuses or biological limitations as sub-saharans have. I know that many here on this site disparage various Muslim nations, I tooI feel disdain towards them, but no one can't deny that they have given much to humanity in regards of architecture, poetry and aesthetics, though not really much in matters of spirituality(or if one wants to claim that endless nitpicking about trivial matters is spirituality then what ever), but what have Latin Americans achieved, even though they have a large and fertile continent, where they have resided for five centuries Look what Americans did just in two centuries! Or what Russians did in inhospitable Siberia, Central Asia and Urals, even Arabs developed interesting and highly distinct culture in Maghreb and Sahel.

    Also the backwardness of Latin America is not just because of them being mixed or something, one of my close relatives lived for couple years in Uruguay, which is the most European/White country of South America, and he told me that people there were always late, had no proper concept of time, the place where worked, was often closed, because there were constant labour strikes. From his words I understood that Uruguay was a shitty country of lazy people, and that same relative had lived before, because of his work, in Ukraine and Russia, and he has never complained about those countries in such way. Slav is an Empire builder, as the histories of Bulgaria, Russia and Poland show us, but Latin American is nothing else than a colonial peon.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @AP, @silviosilver, @silviosilver, @silviosilver, @Mikel, @EldnahYm

    but what have Latin Americans achieved, even though they have a large and fertile continent, where they have resided for five centuries Look what Americans did just in two centuries! Or what Russians did in inhospitable Siberia, Central Asia and Urals,

    Russians are rightly esteemed for their achievements in science, arts, technology and sports; but I have no idea what “what Russians did in inhospitable Siberia….” refers to. Is it just the mere fact that they managed to set up shop there? If so, how is this notably more impressive than Latin American cities in the Andes and the Amazon (neither of which are bywords for hospitable environments)?

    even Arabs developed interesting and highly distinct culture in Maghreb and Sahel.

    You are really reaching now. How “interesting” they are is highly debatable, to say the least, and their simply being “highly distinct” is no reason for anyone to be impressed by them. (Globohomo culture is highly distinct too, when compared to all previously known human cultures, but I somehow doubt this fact raises your opinion of it.)

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @silviosilver


    If so, how is this notably more impressive than Latin American cities in the Andes and the Amazon (neither of which are bywords for hospitable environments)?
     
    Just check the historical population densities of Andes, or how fertile Amazon area is, and compare them with the steppes of Karaganda and tundras of Yakutia and Yamalo-Nenetsia. There is no comparison, none at all. Southern Canada and Scandinavia are much more fertile and hospitable for human existence than most of Russia or former USSR. Even Calgary and Edmonton in Canada, are much warmer places to live than whole of Siberia, and Vancouver is warmer than Kiev.

    https://i.imgur.com/WdhNwdr.png
  253. @AltanBakshi
    @EldnahYm

    If I would be an Anglo, I would think that USA has gone downhill since 1861. Personally I just want that the current USAtan, with it's missionary liberal and universalistic ideas will fall. I don't much care if it will happen by your country changing into Brazil or into Anglo nationalist state, though isolationist WASP regime in America would probably be better for whole humanity.

    I've never given much value to Latin America. What else that god forsaken place has given us philosophically than just new strains of socialism like the heretic salvation theology? Culturally Latin America is a dead end, and they don't even have same excuses or biological limitations as sub-saharans have. I know that many here on this site disparage various Muslim nations, I tooI feel disdain towards them, but no one can't deny that they have given much to humanity in regards of architecture, poetry and aesthetics, though not really much in matters of spirituality(or if one wants to claim that endless nitpicking about trivial matters is spirituality then what ever), but what have Latin Americans achieved, even though they have a large and fertile continent, where they have resided for five centuries Look what Americans did just in two centuries! Or what Russians did in inhospitable Siberia, Central Asia and Urals, even Arabs developed interesting and highly distinct culture in Maghreb and Sahel.

    Also the backwardness of Latin America is not just because of them being mixed or something, one of my close relatives lived for couple years in Uruguay, which is the most European/White country of South America, and he told me that people there were always late, had no proper concept of time, the place where worked, was often closed, because there were constant labour strikes. From his words I understood that Uruguay was a shitty country of lazy people, and that same relative had lived before, because of his work, in Ukraine and Russia, and he has never complained about those countries in such way. Slav is an Empire builder, as the histories of Bulgaria, Russia and Poland show us, but Latin American is nothing else than a colonial peon.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @AP, @silviosilver, @silviosilver, @silviosilver, @Mikel, @EldnahYm

    Slav is an Empire builder, as the histories of Bulgaria, Russia and Poland show us, but Latin American is nothing else than a colonial peon.

    You are too easily impressed imperial authority, treating it as some summum bonum of human existence, regardless of the goods it provides (or bads it prevents). In other (imo more sensible) value systems, imperial authority isn’t even a good, let alone the highest one.

    Outside of ‘high culture,’ Latin America compares quite favorably to the Arab world, the Hindoo world, and to southeast Asia. Consider two examples, sport and music. Latin Americans leave Arabs, Hindoos and Asians in the dust when it comes to sporting success (broadly, not just soccer). Sporting success rests on much more than raw talent and spontaneous individual effort; its consistent production requires certain cultural values and social technologies, and Latin America has performed well in this area.

    If global tastes are anything to go by, popular music is another field in which Latin America has excelled. Large numbers of people across the world, particularly in the west, listen to Latin American music despite not understanding the words. Arab music has its non-Arab fans, and I’m sure that’s also true of Hindoo and Asian music, but I suspect it’ll be a very long time before any of it is played in a popular nightclub.

    • Replies: @Znzn
    @silviosilver

    Have you compared the GDP per capita of Uruguay, Chile, and Argentina with Germany's?

    , @Znzn
    @silviosilver

    Have you compared the GDP per capita of Uruguay, Chile, and Argentina with Germany's?

    , @Znzn
    @silviosilver

    Have you compared the GDP per capita of Uruguay, Chile, and Argentina with Germany's?

    , @Agathoklis
    @silviosilver

    Being played in a popular nightclub should not be the yardstick of whether a cultural good is worthy. Arabic-Persian music is rhythmically and melodically complex. There are many interesting rhythms sometimes in non-common time which is not what can say for popular Western music which is almost always in 4/4. Also, there are many scales or modes one can use to build a melody which again is not the same for the Pentatonic and major/minor scales of Western popular music. They even have microtones which are generally not played in the West. There are popular and classical forms of music in this part of the world. This is not to belittle the achievement of Latin Americans either.

    Replies: @AP

    , @Yahya K.
    @silviosilver


    Latin Americans leave Arabs, Hindoos and Asians in the dust when it comes to sporting success (broadly, not just soccer).
     
    Latin America produces some fine soccer teams who compete at the highest levels in the world cup. Brazil and Argentina are two prominent ones; Mexico and Uruguay perform admirably as well. Smaller Latin-American countries don't however. I assume the success of Brazil, Argentina, Uruguay and Mexico comes from their more comparatively developed state, which in turn is derived from their larger fraction of European-origin peoples. The developed state of those countries keeps environmental factors such as malnutrition and lack of training facilities from inhibiting talented athletes. I noticed, for example, that sub-Saharan nations do not perform well in soccer tournaments, despite the well-known sub-Saharan natural talent for athletics. Blacks in European teams like Germany and France, however, perform as well as you'd expect, and are over-represented way beyond their population (2018 World Cup, France's Team Composition: 33% White, 52% Black, 11% North African, 4% Southeast Asian). So the environment plays a key role in determining performance in sports, not just genes. And the relative importance of nature vs nurture will vary based on the sport we are talking about.

    If global tastes are anything to go by, popular music is another field in which Latin America has excelled.

     

    I think it's indisputable that Latin American music is fairly popular around the world, at least compared to Arabic or Indian music. But, so is African-American music. I would put that down to their comparative proximity to the world's gigantic megaphone called the USA, rather than relative quality of composition. So it's unfair to compare them to more distant groups (I know Indians and Arabs are present in the US; but their numbers are nothing compared to Hispanics and blacks).

    I agree with Agathoklis; mass appeal shouldn’t be used as a proxy for quality. There is no perfect way of judging excellence in music, but Charles Murray's method of seeking expert opinion is the most reasonable imo. I'm no expert, and I'm not aware of any, so I can't give you a consensus opinion on the merits of Arabic vs Indian vs Hispanic music. But I'm broadly familiar with "high" Arabic music, and my own opinion (if it's worth anything) is that it's A-grade stuff compared to Latin American or Indian music (Disclosure: I'm Egyptian so I may be biased). Here's Umm Kulthum, for example, who is widely considered to be the all-time best singer in the Arab World:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jVnLbdqR6U&ab_channel=UmmKulthum-%D8%A7%D9%85%D9%83%D9%84%D8%AB%D9%88%D9%85

    She's good, but her songs are never going to appeal to the masses around the globe. She doesn't sing pop culture trash, she's conservatively Muslim, and she's not attractive. Not exactly the best formula for mass appeal. On the other hand, I think some pretty Christian singers from Egypt, Syria, and Lebanon can reach a wider audience around the globe - if they were allowed access to America's huge megaphone.

    Here's a few potential examples:

    Julia Boutros (Lebanese Christian):
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKjl-zgoGkc&ab_channel=JuliaBoutros

    Faia Younan (Syrian Christian):
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bExR2xkkMXs&ab_channel=FaiaYounan%D9%81%D8%A7%D9%8A%D8%A7%D9%8A%D9%88%D9%86%D8%A7%D9%86

    Carmen Suleiman (Coptic Egyptian):
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG9OKYb0Wyw&ab_channel=MBCGROUP

    Marian Layousse (Lebanese Christian):
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cuLIoKAWkaA&list=PLk4jQWJwkElQWhhQ9ROPDasVSq6qCzQbN&index=207&ab_channel=NationalArabOrchestra

    Some less conservative Muslims could as well:

    Dalal Abu-Amneh (Palestinian):
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8DsO_0bQEA&ab_channel=DalalAbuAmneh-%D8%AF%D9%84%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%A3%D8%A8%D9%88%D8%A2%D9%85%D9%86%D8%A9

    Yasmin Ali (Egyptian):
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGBPbIwFI1k&ab_channel=YasminAli

    Asala Nasri (Syrian):
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hDD8vv3wjHc&ab_channel=LavinTv

    Hela Melki (Tunisian):
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDYpFjv-kBs&ab_channel=NationalArabOrchestra


    ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Other Classical Music:

    Andalusian:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCGzi9Wz8U0&ab_channel=sh4m69

    Saudi Arabian:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s7-RzVfyRH8&list=PLk4jQWJwkElQWhhQ9ROPDasVSq6qCzQbN&index=303&ab_channel=HussainAlJassmi%7C%D8%AD%D8%B3%D9%8A%D9%86%D8%A7%D9%84%D8%AC%D8%B3%D9%85%D9%8A

    Persian:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ql8rseuMVj4&list=PLk4jQWJwkElQWhhQ9ROPDasVSq6qCzQbN&index=297&ab_channel=GholamhosseinBanan-Topic

    Replies: @silviosilver

  254. @silviosilver
    @AltanBakshi


    Slav is an Empire builder, as the histories of Bulgaria, Russia and Poland show us, but Latin American is nothing else than a colonial peon.
     
    You are too easily impressed imperial authority, treating it as some summum bonum of human existence, regardless of the goods it provides (or bads it prevents). In other (imo more sensible) value systems, imperial authority isn't even a good, let alone the highest one.

    Outside of 'high culture,' Latin America compares quite favorably to the Arab world, the Hindoo world, and to southeast Asia. Consider two examples, sport and music. Latin Americans leave Arabs, Hindoos and Asians in the dust when it comes to sporting success (broadly, not just soccer). Sporting success rests on much more than raw talent and spontaneous individual effort; its consistent production requires certain cultural values and social technologies, and Latin America has performed well in this area.

    If global tastes are anything to go by, popular music is another field in which Latin America has excelled. Large numbers of people across the world, particularly in the west, listen to Latin American music despite not understanding the words. Arab music has its non-Arab fans, and I'm sure that's also true of Hindoo and Asian music, but I suspect it'll be a very long time before any of it is played in a popular nightclub.

    Replies: @Znzn, @Znzn, @Znzn, @Agathoklis, @Yahya K.

    Have you compared the GDP per capita of Uruguay, Chile, and Argentina with Germany’s?

  255. @silviosilver
    @AltanBakshi


    Slav is an Empire builder, as the histories of Bulgaria, Russia and Poland show us, but Latin American is nothing else than a colonial peon.
     
    You are too easily impressed imperial authority, treating it as some summum bonum of human existence, regardless of the goods it provides (or bads it prevents). In other (imo more sensible) value systems, imperial authority isn't even a good, let alone the highest one.

    Outside of 'high culture,' Latin America compares quite favorably to the Arab world, the Hindoo world, and to southeast Asia. Consider two examples, sport and music. Latin Americans leave Arabs, Hindoos and Asians in the dust when it comes to sporting success (broadly, not just soccer). Sporting success rests on much more than raw talent and spontaneous individual effort; its consistent production requires certain cultural values and social technologies, and Latin America has performed well in this area.

    If global tastes are anything to go by, popular music is another field in which Latin America has excelled. Large numbers of people across the world, particularly in the west, listen to Latin American music despite not understanding the words. Arab music has its non-Arab fans, and I'm sure that's also true of Hindoo and Asian music, but I suspect it'll be a very long time before any of it is played in a popular nightclub.

    Replies: @Znzn, @Znzn, @Znzn, @Agathoklis, @Yahya K.

    Have you compared the GDP per capita of Uruguay, Chile, and Argentina with Germany’s?

  256. @silviosilver
    @AltanBakshi


    Slav is an Empire builder, as the histories of Bulgaria, Russia and Poland show us, but Latin American is nothing else than a colonial peon.
     
    You are too easily impressed imperial authority, treating it as some summum bonum of human existence, regardless of the goods it provides (or bads it prevents). In other (imo more sensible) value systems, imperial authority isn't even a good, let alone the highest one.

    Outside of 'high culture,' Latin America compares quite favorably to the Arab world, the Hindoo world, and to southeast Asia. Consider two examples, sport and music. Latin Americans leave Arabs, Hindoos and Asians in the dust when it comes to sporting success (broadly, not just soccer). Sporting success rests on much more than raw talent and spontaneous individual effort; its consistent production requires certain cultural values and social technologies, and Latin America has performed well in this area.

    If global tastes are anything to go by, popular music is another field in which Latin America has excelled. Large numbers of people across the world, particularly in the west, listen to Latin American music despite not understanding the words. Arab music has its non-Arab fans, and I'm sure that's also true of Hindoo and Asian music, but I suspect it'll be a very long time before any of it is played in a popular nightclub.

    Replies: @Znzn, @Znzn, @Znzn, @Agathoklis, @Yahya K.

    Have you compared the GDP per capita of Uruguay, Chile, and Argentina with Germany’s?

  257. @silviosilver
    @AltanBakshi


    Slav is an Empire builder, as the histories of Bulgaria, Russia and Poland show us, but Latin American is nothing else than a colonial peon.
     
    You are too easily impressed imperial authority, treating it as some summum bonum of human existence, regardless of the goods it provides (or bads it prevents). In other (imo more sensible) value systems, imperial authority isn't even a good, let alone the highest one.

    Outside of 'high culture,' Latin America compares quite favorably to the Arab world, the Hindoo world, and to southeast Asia. Consider two examples, sport and music. Latin Americans leave Arabs, Hindoos and Asians in the dust when it comes to sporting success (broadly, not just soccer). Sporting success rests on much more than raw talent and spontaneous individual effort; its consistent production requires certain cultural values and social technologies, and Latin America has performed well in this area.

    If global tastes are anything to go by, popular music is another field in which Latin America has excelled. Large numbers of people across the world, particularly in the west, listen to Latin American music despite not understanding the words. Arab music has its non-Arab fans, and I'm sure that's also true of Hindoo and Asian music, but I suspect it'll be a very long time before any of it is played in a popular nightclub.

    Replies: @Znzn, @Znzn, @Znzn, @Agathoklis, @Yahya K.

    Being played in a popular nightclub should not be the yardstick of whether a cultural good is worthy. Arabic-Persian music is rhythmically and melodically complex. There are many interesting rhythms sometimes in non-common time which is not what can say for popular Western music which is almost always in 4/4. Also, there are many scales or modes one can use to build a melody which again is not the same for the Pentatonic and major/minor scales of Western popular music. They even have microtones which are generally not played in the West. There are popular and classical forms of music in this part of the world. This is not to belittle the achievement of Latin Americans either.

    • Agree: Daniel Chieh
    • Thanks: Yahya K.
    • Replies: @AP
    @Agathoklis

    Latin American has not only produced pip music. It’s Baroque music is very nice:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NPfwfxspyRA

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

  258. @Agathoklis
    @silviosilver

    Being played in a popular nightclub should not be the yardstick of whether a cultural good is worthy. Arabic-Persian music is rhythmically and melodically complex. There are many interesting rhythms sometimes in non-common time which is not what can say for popular Western music which is almost always in 4/4. Also, there are many scales or modes one can use to build a melody which again is not the same for the Pentatonic and major/minor scales of Western popular music. They even have microtones which are generally not played in the West. There are popular and classical forms of music in this part of the world. This is not to belittle the achievement of Latin Americans either.

    Replies: @AP

    Latin American has not only produced pip music. It’s Baroque music is very nice:

    • Agree: Mr. Hack
    • Replies: @Mr. Hack
    @AP

    Anyone that loves music will enjoy the lively music of the Mariachi bands, no Amigo? If you're ever in Arizona during the Christmas season (or in Texas or New Mexico too) go to one of the numerous concerts featuring live Mariachi music - you wont regret that you went and you'll leave as a convert to Mexican culture. :-)

  259. @AltanBakshi
    @EldnahYm

    If I would be an Anglo, I would think that USA has gone downhill since 1861. Personally I just want that the current USAtan, with it's missionary liberal and universalistic ideas will fall. I don't much care if it will happen by your country changing into Brazil or into Anglo nationalist state, though isolationist WASP regime in America would probably be better for whole humanity.

    I've never given much value to Latin America. What else that god forsaken place has given us philosophically than just new strains of socialism like the heretic salvation theology? Culturally Latin America is a dead end, and they don't even have same excuses or biological limitations as sub-saharans have. I know that many here on this site disparage various Muslim nations, I tooI feel disdain towards them, but no one can't deny that they have given much to humanity in regards of architecture, poetry and aesthetics, though not really much in matters of spirituality(or if one wants to claim that endless nitpicking about trivial matters is spirituality then what ever), but what have Latin Americans achieved, even though they have a large and fertile continent, where they have resided for five centuries Look what Americans did just in two centuries! Or what Russians did in inhospitable Siberia, Central Asia and Urals, even Arabs developed interesting and highly distinct culture in Maghreb and Sahel.

    Also the backwardness of Latin America is not just because of them being mixed or something, one of my close relatives lived for couple years in Uruguay, which is the most European/White country of South America, and he told me that people there were always late, had no proper concept of time, the place where worked, was often closed, because there were constant labour strikes. From his words I understood that Uruguay was a shitty country of lazy people, and that same relative had lived before, because of his work, in Ukraine and Russia, and he has never complained about those countries in such way. Slav is an Empire builder, as the histories of Bulgaria, Russia and Poland show us, but Latin American is nothing else than a colonial peon.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @AP, @silviosilver, @silviosilver, @silviosilver, @Mikel, @EldnahYm

    hey have given much to humanity in regards of architecture, poetry and aesthetics

    Islamic art ranks as an impressive achievement and obviously outclasses anything produced by rebarbative globohomo “artists”, but how long can you remain fascinated by what is mostly geometric patterns? Personally, I get bored within minutes. In contrast, I have spent hours (cumulatively, not in one sitting) viewing the middlebrow (at best) artwork produced by a Latino like Boris Vallejo.

    I really can’t comment on the poetry, since I don’t know anything about it, nor am I even much of a poetry lover. I enjoy reading a poetic line or two, but, philistine that I am, poems as a whole just bore me. The good thing is, you lose nothing by simply reading a few favorite lines in isolation from the rest of the poem. Even though both music and movies have some segments that are better than the rest, you can’t really listen to or watch just those alone – or if you do, the effect won’t be as good as listening to or watching the whole thing. (Not true of classical music, where you actually gain from skipping boring movements.) So my only yardstick for judging the quality of Islamic poetry is how seldom I’ve ever heard anybody quote selected portions of it – eg in a post, an article, at the beginning of a book chapter.

  260. @Matra
    @AP

    Those would only be his neighbors if he himself was a tattooed up, meth using white dude with a lot of missing teeth.

    Or they are retired normal non-wealthy Americans living on a fixed income and can't really move elsewhere when their neighbourhood is invaded. Or their formerly decent suburbs saw Central Americans, often groups of single men, move into one overcrowded house, then another, and another, making life miserable for normal families, who then see their property values decline giving them few decent options. Or they lost their formerly good jobs or small businesses due to COVID or some other reason, couldn't pay the mortgage and had to move to poor area where they are outnumbered by hostile aliens.

    There are many reasons why people end up having to live round those they don't get along with. Not all poor or downwardly mobile people are the trash you think they are. (I note your fellow Ukrainian-American Mr. Hack agrees with you. Maybe it is a Ukrainian thing, which is odd, given that many Europeans see Ukrainians as the poor white trash of Europe).

    Replies: @AP, @Mr. Hack

    Or their formerly decent suburbs saw Central Americans, often groups of single men, move into one overcrowded house, then another, and another, making life miserable for normal families, who then see their property values decline giving them few decent options.

    I’ve written about my neighborhood here in Phoenix AZ several times. It totally breaks the meme mold that you’re trying to propagate. I moved into this neighborhood about 20 years ago, when the Mexican element was not more than 15%. Its grown whereas today its about 30%. Among the whites, there are some Italians, Ukrainians and the usual assortment of “Heinz 57” mixture. All of the houses are single story one family homes built all together just over 30 years ago. It’s really a nice quiet neighborhood, all the yards kept up quite nicely. My new Cuban neighbor has spent the last year really doing a number on his house, including all new landscaping, and it really shines. Once in a while, one of the Latino families breaks up the quiet monotony in the neighborhood by throwing a party that may go on till midnight. If I’m lucky, I’ll get invited and get a chance to meet some nice family oriented people, play with their kids, listen to some good salsa music and eat a plate full of great Mexican fare and have a beer or two. I’d say that all of the house values are in the same ballpark, valued around 300k in this real estate bubble that we’re in. My home, that I bought (fully furnished) for 110k, is today worth, according to willow, 330k. NO GANGS HERE EITHER!

    The two neighboring neighborhoods that I can walk to to take advantage of their lovely parks are interesting too. One, where the houses aren’t as nice or as big as those in mine is very quaint, and all of the front yards are kept up quite nicely. One Latino house even has a nice Roman Catholic shrine built in their yard including a statue of the Virgin Mary that I bow to when passing by on my way to work.

    The other neighborhood is even nicer than mine. Home values here probably average around 500k with a few probably selling close to 1 million (that are huge houses and include large yards). Just last year I paid a little over $1,000 in property taxes for the first time! What’s there not to like, and I love my Mexican neighbors – they’re a hard working bunch that show their gratitude for living the American dream and are proud to own their own homes.

    • Agree: AP
    • Thanks: Blinky Bill
    • Replies: @Pumblechook
    @Mr. Hack

    What you’re describing has been my experience of Latins in the USA as well. Over the last few years, I’ve spent some months at a time across various parts of California.

    Didn’t quite know what to expect based on some of the online chat and whilst I’m sure there are some genuine ‘La Raza’ troublemakers, drunk Aztec dwarves and problems with drug gangs, pretty much all I met were decent people - and compared to first-gen immigrant Indians, Vietnamese, Arabs, etc. out there, just a lot more ‘normal’ and it didn’t feel like Mexicans as a people had an ‘angle’ or trying to hustle you, like other groups tend to do.

    Replies: @EldnahYm

  261. @AltanBakshi
    @songbird


    Japan should have tried to hold on to Manchukuo, rather that move South.
     
    Do you mean that Japanese should have not have attacked Southern British, Dutch and American hold territories in 1941, or not attacked China in 1937?

    my idea is that Japan could have conciliated the US, while holding onto its circa 1932 territories, presenting itself as a bulwark against communism.
     
    German leadership entertained such dreams in the early 1945, but Western Allies explicitly denied all chances of separate peace in the West. Also USA was very Anti-Japanese and moderately Pro-Chinese. Japan was seen as a strategic threat on the Western pacific.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @songbird, @China Japan and Korea Bromance of Three Kingdoms

    Do you mean that Japanese should have not have attacked Southern British, Dutch and American hold territories in 1941, or not attacked China in 1937?

    Both, really. I think the negative perceptions of Japan mostly came from two ideas: 1.) that they were a destabilizing influence on China, 2.) that there was no effective limit on their territorial ambitions.

    The second may not have quite been true, but the easy way to show it would have been to not expand past their 1932 borders. Probably not a good idea to attack European colonies and consolidate strategic resources, (I think postwar Japan shows that they did not need these resources, if not on a war footing) but definitely, not a good idea to try to give the US a bloody nose, and believe it would sue for peace.

    And something like the “Nanjing Massacre” was a PR disaster.

    Perhaps, the populace of Japan was too fired up with war sentiment to make peace easy. Maybe, the wrong party won and choosing peace was impossible in those circumstances.

  262. @Felix Keverich
    @reiner Tor

    It's a cope. Your people feel the need to look down on someone, since they have massive inferiority complex vis-a-vis Western Europe.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Manfrog

    How do Slavs cope, then?

  263. @AP
    @Agathoklis

    Latin American has not only produced pip music. It’s Baroque music is very nice:

    https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=NPfwfxspyRA

    Replies: @Mr. Hack

    Anyone that loves music will enjoy the lively music of the Mariachi bands, no Amigo? If you’re ever in Arizona during the Christmas season (or in Texas or New Mexico too) go to one of the numerous concerts featuring live Mariachi music – you wont regret that you went and you’ll leave as a convert to Mexican culture. 🙂

  264. @AltanBakshi
    @Morton's toes


    The Tibetan Buddhists genocided the shamans and stole all their best ideas (all the best ideas of the Tibetan Budddhists started out as the best ideas of the shamans they destroyed).
     
    While it's true that 3rd Dalai Lama and Altan Khaan ordered all human sacrificing shamans to be killed if they continue sacrificing people and burning women on funeral pyres, I still would not call such an act by name of genocide, it's justice and nothing else. Pre-Buddhist religions are still living faiths in Mongolic and Tibetan lands, and substantial share of their people are not Buddhists, but Tengrist Shamanists or followers of Bön religion.
    http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-F_8er6aqZCg/T0XjNGTCGsI/AAAAAAAAAZo/v0yoEHjxzk8/s1600/IMGA0493.JPG

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SGBo6FDDYd8

    Replies: @Morton's toes

    That is great video!

    Have you ever seen this stuff for real?

    • Replies: @AltanBakshi
    @Morton's toes


    Have you ever seen this stuff for real?
     
    I have many Shamanist relatives, and I have seen some Shamanist rituals, but no, I have never seen when Shaman goes to trance and acts as a medium or speaks with spirits. I don't much like Shamanist rituals, there's often animal sacrifices and drinking of alcohol. Drinking is not a problem to me, but it does not belong to religion, in my opinion, and animal sacrifice is just evil. Anyhow, the Shamanism of Mongolic peoples, Tuvans and people of Altay is influenced by Buddhism, though how much, depends on a shaman. so it's not wholly like in ancient times. Surprisingly Shamanism flourished during the Communist times, unlike Buddhism.

    But, I have seen two times how a Tibetan oracle goes into "trance" and let's a Lokapala, or worldly guardian spirit, speak through him. Now probably some Christians among you think how satanic sounding this is? Well, those worldly spirits are not good beings, but strong entities subjugated over thousand years ago by ancient Buddhist masters, and bound by vows and mantras to protect our religion, we do not worship them, and they are seen as quite dangerous. When oracle is in trance, the Lokapala will communicate through him with a high lama, and lama will treat that spirit like a servant and ask him about various things. So lama will act as a successor of ancient master.

    Well, I don't much care about oracles, if they are beneficial for some, then good for them, maybe I'm too westernized or modern to give importance to such things, still I will always keep my mind open.

    https://thefemalebuddha.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/img_05903.jpg

  265. @Blinky Bill
    @mal


    For orbital launches this year, Chinese had 10 launches for 9 successful, Russians 7 for 7, Indians 1 for 1, and Americans 16 for 16, of which 11 was Musk.
     
    A second launch occurred on 1 February 2021, at 08:15 UTC (16:15 Beijing Time) from Jiuquan Satellite Launch Center with 6 unidentified satellites but failed to reach orbit.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-Space_(Chinese_company)

    I wonder what role Russian and Chinese private space companies will play in the industry over the coming decades? Or are both destined to always be state dominated?

    Replies: @mal, @songbird

    Well it’s all state dominated in the US too – all those “private sector” entrepreneurs feed off government contracts, mostly military, and play by their rules.

    Like poor Momentus that can’t get a break because it’s too Russian.

    https://spacenews.com/lockheed-martin-removes-momentus-from-nasa-technology-demonstration-mission/

    Or like that time when Elon Musk charged Pentagon $300 million for two launches because “it needed infrastructure” lol. It is no different from that Vostochny subcontractor that Russians caught in crystal studded Mercedes.

    What is called ‘corruption’ in Russia and China is ‘private sector initiative’ in the US. But its not all bad. Government and large corporations are increasingly bureaucratic and focus more on woke stuff, so it takes them forever to deliver results. If some guys want to skim off government contracts and become rich, but deliver results faster, it is well worth it.

    • Agree: songbird, Daniel Chieh
    • Thanks: Blinky Bill
  266. @128
    @Wency

    Huh? As seen on Google street view the roads look to be in good condition, and even minor roads in remote areas are paved, compared to the US where the rural areas are a large part made up of gravel roads, like in Wisconsin, Montana, or Wyoming, very small towns in the Western US do not even have paved roads, unlike in Japan.

    Replies: @Wency

    Yeah, Japan does have pretty good roads. I was mainly talking about buildings. The comment on “infrastructure” was more about public buildings, train stations and the like. I didn’t see anything that was as bad as the worst you can find in the US, but also saw very little that would qualify as “good” in the US.

  267. @Blinky Bill
    @mal


    For orbital launches this year, Chinese had 10 launches for 9 successful, Russians 7 for 7, Indians 1 for 1, and Americans 16 for 16, of which 11 was Musk.
     
    A second launch occurred on 1 February 2021, at 08:15 UTC (16:15 Beijing Time) from Jiuquan Satellite Launch Center with 6 unidentified satellites but failed to reach orbit.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I-Space_(Chinese_company)

    I wonder what role Russian and Chinese private space companies will play in the industry over the coming decades? Or are both destined to always be state dominated?

    Replies: @mal, @songbird

    I think a big part of the drive for new investment in private space companies came from servicing the International Space Station, a project from which China was excluded.

    This year, China is scheduled to launch the Chinese large modular space station. It is different from their previous space labs which were only meant to be temporary. A modular design fundamentally encourages a longer lifespan, with upgrades and additions. It encourages scheduled servicing and resupply. It is only meant to be about 1/5 the mass of the ISS or about equal to the size of Mir. But once you start a modular design, it is relatively easy to add on to it, especially if expanding modules are used.

    Axiom Space actually has a plan to make an annex to the ISS with private modules, and then detach, when the ISS is retired and deorbited, and become their own commercial space station. I’m not sure if it is practical – I think the commercial potentiality of space stations has generally been overestimated, but I do believe that the new Chinese space station will encourage more state investment in private space companies in China.

    • Thanks: Blinky Bill, mal
  268. @Kazan
    @reiner Tor

    Claiming Felix or russians in general have some inferiority complex with true Europeans is laughable, and I'm not sure the same can be said of Hungarians to Germans:

    1. Our football fans beating the sh*t out of Anglo thugs in Euro 2016

    2. With the Americans and anglos we are among the biggest travellers/tourists on the planet. We go to the west, and show zero inclination to stay there after holiday. Even our guys in Karelia who cross the border into Finland all the time don't show any Inferiority complex.

    3. This is maybe even more obvious in Kaliningrad where our guys do plenty of food shopping and visits to neighbouring EU states, but show f**k all interest in staying there. The depopulation stats for Kaliningrad are far less ( actually I think the population increases) than for the majority of russian regions,despite the easier chance of moving to the EU - so your inferiority theory is BS.

    4. The population of Hungary would be about 243 if they had the same climatic extremities as in Russia

    5. Russians are probably the proudest and most secure in their culture of any people's on the planet. Can Hungarians claim any of that, particularly with the German influence?

    As for "living conditions superior in Hungary, except for Muscovites" - Moscow is 20 million people, SP 5 million, Kazan far higher living standards, Krasnoyarsk, Ufa, Krasnodar, Lipetsk, Tyumen, Yekaterinburg, Sochi and many other places with a population dwarfing that of Hungary that have a superior ( OK let's be diplomatic and say equal) standard of living.

    Replies: @AP, @Manfrog

    Reading this bizarre comment, I understand the logic behind Generalplan Ost..

  269. For instance, earlier this year, I was shocked to discover that Serbia’s population was 7M, not 10M. I had obviously kept conflating it with all its rightful territories territories still intact.

    <3

  270. @reiner Tor
    @AltanBakshi


    Do you mean that Japanese should have not have attacked Southern British, Dutch and American hold territories in 1941, or not attacked China in 1937?
     
    They should have attacked neither.

    German leadership
     
    They should not have started the war either. Germany was the dominant power in Central Europe, and over time it could have built nukes (just like Japan and eventually nationalist China), so that now we’d have a truly multipolar world.

    Maybe then we’d have had the Second World War in the 1970s and it would have been so much more destructive, so maybe it’s good that it didn’t happen. I’m just trying to think about scenarios where globohomo didn’t become so dominant.

    Replies: @Wency

    I have to imagine that a Hitler who stopped after taking Austria and the Sudetenland would be more of a Franco-like figure, and viewed perhaps as someone whose bark was worse than his bite. Germany softens and de-Nazifies within a few decades anyway, and once it breaks free of Nazism it overcorrects even harder to the left. But it does keep those territories, and East Prussia, into the present day.

    A Germany that somehow mostly fulfilled Hitler’s vision (which, to be sure, I view as mostly an insane vision) and won WW2 would probably be a different animal. For a variety of reasons, I think Nazism would have persisted longer if it succeeded in seizing its lebensraum.

    • Replies: @Beckow
    @Wency


    Hitler who stopped after taking Austria and the Sudetenland would be more of a Franco-like figure
     
    The basic idea is that most state-building - or empire-building - fail because of too much ambition, they collapse because of indigestion. But in the case of Germany and its allies it was inevitable and driven by a key objective:

    ...Germany seizing its lebensraum.
     
    The lebensraum was not a dreamy concept of somewhere nebulous in the sky. Lebensraum had a firm geographic meaning: take the land where Poles, Czechs, Belorussians, Ukrainians and Russians live and replace them. That was what was driving the German Nazi geo-politics and not abstract concepts like fighting Bolsheviks or anti-semitism. Germans simply wanted the Poles, Czechs, Russian, etc... out by any means and the land to become a part of Germany.

    That plan failed when Germans were defeated by Russians. That is why Nazism lost. The West had a strong sympathy for the Nazi plans in the east and collaborated - or at least didn't mind. Then the West has spent almost 70 years trying to rewrite this reality out of history. We get endless attempts to trivialise WWII, confuse the timeline, turn it into anti-semitism only, make-up some stuff and omit other, e.g. the Munich treaty with Hitler or French-Belgian-Dutch divisions fighting in the east.

    It is a lie. And given the bloody history of WWII it is one of the most inhuman lies there ever was. If the West persists for its petty reasons in pushing this lie, they play with fire. They will eventually hit a wall and things will go boom.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @Manfrog

    , @AltanBakshi
    @Wency


    A Germany that somehow mostly fulfilled Hitler’s vision (which, to be sure, I view as mostly an insane vision) and won WW2 would probably be a different animal. For a variety of reasons, I think Nazism would have persisted longer if it succeeded in seizing its lebensraum.
     
    It's a common misconception to think that the lebensraum plans were realistic. In the 1930s Germany had extremely low number of births, the fertility rate was less than 2.0, and later during the war Germany lost huge share of it's young and middle-aged men, proportionally more than any other age groups. Because of constant labour shortages, Germans brought millions of French and Ostarbeiters to Reich during the war. I think that Lebensraum plans would have gotten botched or there would have been a milder form of colonization than in the wildest dreams of the NSDAP. Germany just had not enough men or children, to realistically colonize Eastern Europe in a grand scale. We also should not forget that Rosenberg and Goebbels were quite sympathetic towards the Slavs, Goebbels even had a Czech lover, though Hitler forced him to break his relations with his mistress and made him reconcile with his wife. So there were many variable factors and cliques inside the NSDAP, lot of would have depended when Hitler would have died after the war, and which clique would had won control over most important institutions of state.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1033102/fertility-rate-germany-1800-2020/

    Replies: @Beckow

    , @reiner Tor
    @Wency


    a Hitler who stopped after taking Austria and the Sudetenland would be more of a Franco-like figure
     
    Far from it. Franco didn’t have an ideology except some kind of a vague conservatism and Catholicism, and he was ruling one of the poorest countries in Europe, an absolute backwater. The Spanish middle class obviously looked abroad for how to behave, and with the USA being the dominant superpower they became shitlibs. Those who didn’t looked at the other superpower and became communists. Germany, on the other hand, would not compare unfavorably to France in terms of living standards (and many in France found Germany an example to emulate already in the 1930s), and it had a proper ideology.

    Germany softens and de-Nazifies within a few decades anyway, and once it breaks free of Nazism it overcorrects even harder to the left.
     
    I’m not denying that that’s a possibility, but the whole German leadership consisted of Nazi true believers. Presumably the political leaders would have been vetted for ideology, much like how they were in the USSR, where each communist leader up to and including Gorbachev were communist true believers. The issue with the USSR was the glaring economic inefficiency, by the late 1960s or early 1970s at the latest it became clear that the economy needed a serious reform. However, the economic system stood at the core of the ideology, so reforming it was very difficult. Gorbachev’s 1987 reforms resulted in an economic crisis, but then proved impossible to roll back. Then he started to focus on political reform to prevent his overthrow by hardliners in the wake of the economic crisis his reforms caused, and also because the communist system didn’t quite live up to its promises of democracy and rule by the toiling classes (instead of a class of permanent bureaucrats).

    Nazism wouldn’t have faced any of these issues. It was economically way more efficient, and it would have been easy to reform anyway, since economy was not central to the ideology. Göring and Speer preferred some kind of central planning, but probably only in the context of preparation for and conducting a total war. Many other committed Nazis like Otto Ohlendorf found it repulsive and supported the free market.

    So it would have been different from both Franco’s Spain and the USSR, and less likely to collapse than either.

    One big danger would have been rather the opposite. In a Nazi Germany softly dominating Central and Southeastern Europe between Germany and the USSR a future Nazi leader might’ve concluded that National Socialism was not living up to its ideals and that it should strive to conquer Ukraine and Russia, resulting in the exact same world war which destroyed it 1939-45. But perhaps after a dangerous period each great power would have managed to build nukes, and then there would have been enough sanity to prevent this.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @songbird, @Wency

  271. @Bashibuzuk
    @Shango

    It was mainly Sufi and partly Shia. He forced it to become more Salafi.

    Replies: @steinbergfeldwitzcohen

    Is it all about which madrassah group you fund?

    In general, Pakistan seems to be getting worse and worse with time.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @steinbergfeldwitzcohen

    It's about the mindset. Different Islamic sects have quite different mindsets. Wahhabi / Salafi are the most regressive. They are now the dominant force in Pakistan, therefore it is not a surprise that the country is going down the drain. Of course there are other reasons : economic, demographic, environmental. But the mindset is in my opinion paramount. Always and accross all the cultures...

  272. @Vishnugupta
    @Daniel Chieh

    Yes indeed which is why I have pointed that out as a significant achievement but they are not in the same league as stealth UCAV drones about to be deployed by major powers this decade and the Turks will be dependant on foreign inputs in terms of jet engines for their production and satellite networks for their navigation if they ever attempt to build something similar.

    Your observation is true wherever Islamic culture takes root.

    Take Armenia (Artem Mikoyan,Boris Babian and half a dozen other technical greats of the USSR) and Georgia(World leaders in Phage therapy) on one hand and the good for nothing Muslim inhabitants of the Caucasus.

    Take India and Pakistan,Serbia and Albania.All over the world it is the same story.Wherever this religion/culture establishes itself intellectual and scientific capabilities generally declines.

    Replies: @steinbergfeldwitzcohen

    Islam is pure poison. I agree completely. The Abrahamic mind virus destroys human potential wherever it goes.
    I am really hoping that Islam, Judaism and Christianity all slowly die out over time.

    • Replies: @Bashibuzuk
    @steinbergfeldwitzcohen

    We need to keep the grain and throw out the chaff. There are positive aspects about Abrahamic Creeds, but it is true that they are first and foremost viral memetic packages. And some memes are obviously more benign that others.

    , @AltanBakshi
    @steinbergfeldwitzcohen

    If Christianity is a virus harmful to human potential, why then when Christianity is disappearing in the West, the culture and fertility of westerners is stagnating or even decaying? By your logic human potential of Post-Christian West should be higher than it has ever been since Pagan times. For some reason it does not look like so.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

  273. @steinbergfeldwitzcohen
    @Bashibuzuk

    Is it all about which madrassah group you fund?

    In general, Pakistan seems to be getting worse and worse with time.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk

    It’s about the mindset. Different Islamic sects have quite different mindsets. Wahhabi / Salafi are the most regressive. They are now the dominant force in Pakistan, therefore it is not a surprise that the country is going down the drain. Of course there are other reasons : economic, demographic, environmental. But the mindset is in my opinion paramount. Always and accross all the cultures…

  274. @steinbergfeldwitzcohen
    @Vishnugupta

    Islam is pure poison. I agree completely. The Abrahamic mind virus destroys human potential wherever it goes.
    I am really hoping that Islam, Judaism and Christianity all slowly die out over time.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @AltanBakshi

    We need to keep the grain and throw out the chaff. There are positive aspects about Abrahamic Creeds, but it is true that they are first and foremost viral memetic packages. And some memes are obviously more benign that others.

  275. @Wency
    @reiner Tor

    I have to imagine that a Hitler who stopped after taking Austria and the Sudetenland would be more of a Franco-like figure, and viewed perhaps as someone whose bark was worse than his bite. Germany softens and de-Nazifies within a few decades anyway, and once it breaks free of Nazism it overcorrects even harder to the left. But it does keep those territories, and East Prussia, into the present day.

    A Germany that somehow mostly fulfilled Hitler's vision (which, to be sure, I view as mostly an insane vision) and won WW2 would probably be a different animal. For a variety of reasons, I think Nazism would have persisted longer if it succeeded in seizing its lebensraum.

    Replies: @Beckow, @AltanBakshi, @reiner Tor

    Hitler who stopped after taking Austria and the Sudetenland would be more of a Franco-like figure

    The basic idea is that most state-building – or empire-building – fail because of too much ambition, they collapse because of indigestion. But in the case of Germany and its allies it was inevitable and driven by a key objective:

    …Germany seizing its lebensraum.

    The lebensraum was not a dreamy concept of somewhere nebulous in the sky. Lebensraum had a firm geographic meaning: take the land where Poles, Czechs, Belorussians, Ukrainians and Russians live and replace them. That was what was driving the German Nazi geo-politics and not abstract concepts like fighting Bolsheviks or anti-semitism. Germans simply wanted the Poles, Czechs, Russian, etc… out by any means and the land to become a part of Germany.

    That plan failed when Germans were defeated by Russians. That is why Nazism lost. The West had a strong sympathy for the Nazi plans in the east and collaborated – or at least didn’t mind. Then the West has spent almost 70 years trying to rewrite this reality out of history. We get endless attempts to trivialise WWII, confuse the timeline, turn it into anti-semitism only, make-up some stuff and omit other, e.g. the Munich treaty with Hitler or French-Belgian-Dutch divisions fighting in the east.

    It is a lie. And given the bloody history of WWII it is one of the most inhuman lies there ever was. If the West persists for its petty reasons in pushing this lie, they play with fire. They will eventually hit a wall and things will go boom.

    • Replies: @silviosilver
    @Beckow


    West had a strong sympathy for the Nazi plans in the east and collaborated – or at least didn’t mind.
     
    Yeah, exactly. That's why when Germany invaded Poland, Britain and France simply said to themselves, hah, let them fight it out, who cares, it's not our problem, if Germany wins, all the better for us. I agree, it's downright criminal this aspect is left out of mainstream western histories of the war!

    Replies: @Coconuts

    , @Manfrog
    @Beckow

    Germany was defeated by a multiethnic, polyglot empire, ruled by a psychotic Georgian. The epicanthic folds seen on "Russian" soldiers raping German women in 1945 were...prominent.

    Replies: @reiner Tor, @Grahamsno(G64)

  276. @Blinky Bill
    @silviosilver

    https://youtu.be/momB9-4qAXk

    Replies: @Another German Reader

    Game Over man! Game Over!

    • LOL: Blinky Bill
  277. @Beckow
    @Wency


    Hitler who stopped after taking Austria and the Sudetenland would be more of a Franco-like figure
     
    The basic idea is that most state-building - or empire-building - fail because of too much ambition, they collapse because of indigestion. But in the case of Germany and its allies it was inevitable and driven by a key objective:

    ...Germany seizing its lebensraum.
     
    The lebensraum was not a dreamy concept of somewhere nebulous in the sky. Lebensraum had a firm geographic meaning: take the land where Poles, Czechs, Belorussians, Ukrainians and Russians live and replace them. That was what was driving the German Nazi geo-politics and not abstract concepts like fighting Bolsheviks or anti-semitism. Germans simply wanted the Poles, Czechs, Russian, etc... out by any means and the land to become a part of Germany.

    That plan failed when Germans were defeated by Russians. That is why Nazism lost. The West had a strong sympathy for the Nazi plans in the east and collaborated - or at least didn't mind. Then the West has spent almost 70 years trying to rewrite this reality out of history. We get endless attempts to trivialise WWII, confuse the timeline, turn it into anti-semitism only, make-up some stuff and omit other, e.g. the Munich treaty with Hitler or French-Belgian-Dutch divisions fighting in the east.

    It is a lie. And given the bloody history of WWII it is one of the most inhuman lies there ever was. If the West persists for its petty reasons in pushing this lie, they play with fire. They will eventually hit a wall and things will go boom.

    Replies: @silviosilver, @Manfrog

    West had a strong sympathy for the Nazi plans in the east and collaborated – or at least didn’t mind.

    Yeah, exactly. That’s why when Germany invaded Poland, Britain and France simply said to themselves, hah, let them fight it out, who cares, it’s not our problem, if Germany wins, all the better for us. I agree, it’s downright criminal this aspect is left out of mainstream western histories of the war!

    • Agree: Coconuts
    • Replies: @Coconuts
    @silviosilver

    France and Britain were just playing out some mega 4-D chess moves in 1939/1940 culminating in the master stroke that was the fall of France.

  278. @Wency
    @reiner Tor

    I have to imagine that a Hitler who stopped after taking Austria and the Sudetenland would be more of a Franco-like figure, and viewed perhaps as someone whose bark was worse than his bite. Germany softens and de-Nazifies within a few decades anyway, and once it breaks free of Nazism it overcorrects even harder to the left. But it does keep those territories, and East Prussia, into the present day.

    A Germany that somehow mostly fulfilled Hitler's vision (which, to be sure, I view as mostly an insane vision) and won WW2 would probably be a different animal. For a variety of reasons, I think Nazism would have persisted longer if it succeeded in seizing its lebensraum.

    Replies: @Beckow, @AltanBakshi, @reiner Tor

    A Germany that somehow mostly fulfilled Hitler’s vision (which, to be sure, I view as mostly an insane vision) and won WW2 would probably be a different animal. For a variety of reasons, I think Nazism would have persisted longer if it succeeded in seizing its lebensraum.

    It’s a common misconception to think that the lebensraum plans were realistic. In the 1930s Germany had extremely low number of births, the fertility rate was less than 2.0, and later during the war Germany lost huge share of it’s young and middle-aged men, proportionally more than any other age groups. Because of constant labour shortages, Germans brought millions of French and Ostarbeiters to Reich during the war. I think that Lebensraum plans would have gotten botched or there would have been a milder form of colonization than in the wildest dreams of the NSDAP. Germany just had not enough men or children, to realistically colonize Eastern Europe in a grand scale. We also should not forget that Rosenberg and Goebbels were quite sympathetic towards the Slavs, Goebbels even had a Czech lover, though Hitler forced him to break his relations with his mistress and made him reconcile with his wife. So there were many variable factors and cliques inside the NSDAP, lot of would have depended when Hitler would have died after the war, and which clique would had won control over most important institutions of state.

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/1033102/fertility-rate-germany-1800-2020/

    • Agree: EldnahYm
    • Replies: @Beckow
    @AltanBakshi


    ...misconception to think that the lebensraum plans were realistic.
     
    When plans fail it is easy to call them unrealistic. In the 40's it was quite realistic, Germans had the manpower, the desire, and passive Western support. Anglos or French wouldn't move a finger or sacrifice anything to fight Germans in the east - they sat down in 1938 and basically directed Hitler towards the east in Munich. Many in the West - possibly a majority - quietly preferred for the eastern Europe to be controlled and occupied by their fellow German kin, and not the damn Slavs. This was obvious at the time, West spent decades obfuscating their ugly behaviour. Some here still do it.

    Germans actually started the colonisation of lebensraum during WWII: Auschwitz was a new German city and there were dozens of them in the occupied east. Germans planted settlers in Crimea (always a primary price) in 1942-3. They were serious. A lot of serious plans are unrealistic in hindsight.

    Germans are a Western kin, Slavs are not. Poles and others can blow until they are blue in their faces, that is not going to change.

    Replies: @Bashibuzuk, @reiner Tor

  279. @Morton's toes
    @AltanBakshi

    That is great video!

    Have you ever seen this stuff for real?

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    Have you ever seen this stuff for real?

    I have many Shamanist relatives, and I have seen some Shamanist rituals, but no, I have never seen when Shaman goes to trance and acts as a medium or speaks with spirits. I don’t much like Shamanist rituals, there’s often animal sacrifices and drinking of alcohol. Drinking is not a problem to me, but it does not belong to religion, in my opinion, and animal sacrifice is just evil. Anyhow, the Shamanism of Mongolic peoples, Tuvans and people of Altay is influenced by Buddhism, though how much, depends on a shaman. so it’s not wholly like in ancient times. Surprisingly Shamanism flourished during the Communist times, unlike Buddhism.

    But, I have seen two times how a Tibetan oracle goes into “trance” and let’s a Lokapala, or worldly guardian spirit, speak through him. Now probably some Christians among you think how satanic sounding this is? Well, those worldly spirits are not good beings, but strong entities subjugated over thousand years ago by ancient Buddhist masters, and bound by vows and mantras to protect our religion, we do not worship them, and they are seen as quite dangerous. When oracle is in trance, the Lokapala will communicate through him with a high lama, and lama will treat that spirit like a servant and ask him about various things. So lama will act as a successor of ancient master.

    Well, I don’t much care about oracles, if they are beneficial for some, then good for them, maybe I’m too westernized or modern to give importance to such things, still I will always keep my mind open.

    • Thanks: Morton's toes
  280. @AP
    @AltanBakshi


    I’ve never given much value to Latin America. What else that god forsaken place has given us philosophically than just new strains of socialism like the heretic salvation theology?
     
    Nice literature and music count for something. Liberation theology is no worse than the original Bolshevism.

    Culturally Latin America is a dead end
     
    Do you think the same of Spain? What has it done culturally in the last 300 years? Latin America is Spain's child.

    I tooI feel disdain towards them, but no one can’t deny that they have given much to humanity in regards of architecture, poetry and aesthetics,
     
    You think the Muslim world is better than Latin America? LOL.

    Mexico:

    https://cdn.havecamerawilltravel.com/places/files/2016/10/mexico-city-sacristy-in-mexico-city-metropolitan-cathedral-74-copyright-havecamerawilltravel-com.jpg

    https://cdn.britannica.com/44/145944-050-BE46FA53/Metropolitan-Cathedral-Mexico-City.jpg

    https://media.tacdn.com/media/attractions-splice-spp-674x446/07/98/25/11.jpg

    Replies: @AltanBakshi

    Do you think the same of Spain? What has it done culturally in the last 300 years? Latin America is Spain’s child.

    Oh Spain has given us so much during the last 300 years, extremely much, in matters of art, aesthetics and literature, among other various other things. How anyone can forget such masters like Goya, Dali or Picasso, just to mention few most famous. Spanish or Catalonian Modernism is world famous, so are Neo-Moor or Neo-Morisco and Bombaline style of Portugal. I don’t know much about Spanish literature, but Garcia Lorca comes into mind.

    Everything you show about Mexico is just Spanish or Peninsular architecture, it’s like you would show Spanish churches in Philippines and say, “do you see the achievements of Pinays!” Though I agree that Mexico has been more successful than other Latino countries, in creating of distinct and independent culture, but you should have shown some shitty artworks by Kahlo, or better artworks by his fat lover, which are quite nice examples of socialist art.

    One thing that really hurts my aesthetical sensibilities, is their carnivals, they dress like a silly hybrid of tropical parrot and whore. Ugh, such a bad taste. Oh, and if you people think that our western intellectuals love socialism, then look there, it’s unbelievable how in love they are with the socialism.

    • Replies: @AP
    @AltanBakshi


    Oh Spain has given us so much during the last 300 years, extremely much, in matters of art, aesthetics and literature, among other various other things. How anyone can forget such masters like Goya, Dali or Picasso
     
    Goya was good. Dali was very entertaining and a good self-promoter, but not much else. Picasso had some talent but his works were ugly.

    I don’t know much about Spanish literature, but Garcia Lorca comes into mind.
     
    Latin America produced Borges, Sabato, Cortazar, Marquez. There is a flavor of Russia in Latin American literature, and perhaps not coincidentally educated Latin Americans have a fondness for Russian literature.

    Everything you show about Mexico is just Spanish or Peninsular architecture,
     
    That's like dismissing St. Petersburg as just Italian or French architecture.

    Brasilia is a showcase of modernist architecture:

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Catedral1_Rodrigo_Marfan.jpg

    https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/0/0e/Teatro_Nacional_Cl%C3%A1udio_Santoro_-_Brasilia_-_DSC00311.JPG

    Replies: @ΔŖК†ІКⱲØЛФ

    , @Mr. Hack
    @AltanBakshi

    The artwork of Mexico is vibrant and a mix of Spanish and local Indian customs. In November, the locals celebrate the "Day of the Dead" where families congregate at local cemeteries and pay homage to the memories of their dearly departed. Ukrainian Orthodox Christians have a similar holiday (Providna Nedilia) exactly one week after Easter, where they gather at the gravesite of their dearly departed at cemeteries too, praying to God Almighty to accept their souls into paradise. Priests and supplicants perform the formal prayer ceremonies as they inhale the wafts of incensed air and hold a lit candles. My mother would always leave candies and fruits at our family's gravesites. I'm not sure whether this custom is also maintained in Russia?

    https://youtu.be/8OOBabrw_S4
    A case of life imitating art, or the other way around?

    Replies: @AltanBakshi